Hawks

By ray

July 14, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this

Damn…..

Thanks for the news, Sekou. This promises to be interesting. “If things get out of hand”…what is that supposed to mean? If Josh gets signed to an offer sheet that’s too high? Get ready to say hello to Al Harrington part II. And turning away teams without even discussing the concept of a trade…one can only hope it was for the purpose of not strengthening a rival.

That’s it. Gonna have to muster the Blog Crimes Unit to go and find granny. Looks like somebody stole Miss Daisy and is driving her down Route 666….

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 9:39 AM | Link to this

Ray, I second your Damn and i’ll raise you with another DAMN!!!

O.K as the Unrestricted list grows shorter, Here’s the GOOD that’s left out there.

SHOOTERS:

Carlos Delfino

Maurece Evans

Rickey Davis

James Posey(Let’s be honest, he’s NOT coming here)

Kareem Rush (Delfino and Evans have a better percentage and scoring numbers this year)

Jannaro Pargo (I thought he was 6’5 but he’s only 6’1. He also played at Arkansas with Joe…….no size…..not coming here)

BIGS:

Kwame

Wayne Simeion

Randolph Morris

By fudd21

July 14, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

Sekou Was the Joe Johnson event strictly for NBA people or could us average Joes attended as well. I would have loved to play some golf and poker and seen the pretty ladies.

By doc

July 14, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

bring back the human chandelier pop corn popper as help in toughness. yuck all he dis was ruin zaza and acie dogging those guys. but if jj likes him as he did the coach then we might be stuck with them. let someone else make the personnel moves jj!

on another note: do you think we have the holyfield approach to nba basketball? we arent broke; we just arent liquid. selah.

enjoy the day as if it is your last each day priests of the liars table.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 14, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

If we’re gonna acquire a big man it really should be someone better than Zaza. I don’t think that’s too tough to accomplish. Lorenzen Wright, however, does not qualify. If we’re gonna get a bum so scrubby that Zaza is ahead of him, we might as well just force-feed Solomon Jones some hamburgers this summer and throw him out there.

By Ernest

July 14, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

LoWright as a low cost, big man option? I could only see that as the 11th or 12th man but not as a part of the 1st 10.

Rickey Davis would be intriguing if he’s willing to submit himself to that role. The guy can score and that what you need from the 2nd unit, someone you can count on. I’m still pulling for Kwame because of his youth and size. Hopefully coming home will energize him.

By Melvin

July 14, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

Salimfan, I think you can add Jamaal Maglorie to your list of bigs that available. I wouldn’t mind seeing the Hawks add him to the roster. Doc, sorry to hear about your mentor. Look like we lost a great one.

By Astro Joe

July 14, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

Here’s my suggestion, let’s just stick with those guys who have helped us have a virtual dynasty the last few years. Bring back Batista, Ebi Okezie, Cedric Bozeman and Matt Freije. By bringing back those guys from our glory years, we will know that they are comfortable running Woody’s ultra-complex offensive system. And we know how well those guys did providing us with big bodies and pure shooters. Who needs a Jarvis Hayes when we have Ced Bozeman? Batista is a comparable defensive enforcer to Diop. It’s a good thing that our GM, Junior, has great relationships with these exceptional role players. Ain’t no need to worry, Junior will ensure that we have a squad that will deliver a home court playoff seeding.

1-2-3 DAMN!

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

Poop, Wright played welll against size but other than that……Nope.

Let’s not forget about Shannon Brown. The guy is explosive and just needs an poopurtunity. He’ll probably be the cheapest also. Chicago had so many 2 guards that they probably won’t sign him back.

By khao$

July 14, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Sekou, It doesn’t surprise me that they (the Hawks brass) have discussed sign and trade offers with at least one team. Sometimes, a team will make offers you have to consider, at the very least.You’d be buffoons to not listen to deals that can better you. The idea that they’ve turned teams away indicates they want Josh, however. All any of this says is he’s not untouchable, but he’s a valuable piece. My problem with the entire offseason situation is the Hawks’ lack of aggression in the a free agent market that is quickly drying up. In order to compete with the other teams in the Eastern Conference, at some point, they have to be more proactive; teams are improving. I don’t know what they said to Josh Smith in their closed door meeting on 7/1. However, I’d bring him back in and say: 1) We want to keep you and envision you being an important cog in our future plans. 2) We understand you need to get paid for your services.

That said…we have to build a competitve team. The longer this drags out, the less money you’re subject to make and the less likely we can build a competitive team.

Collectively, everybody needs to make a decision with no hard feelings involved and come to a consensus. It is a simple reality. We’ve got to fill out this roster. Both the Hawks and Smith’s camp is prohibiting that from happening. Who knows who we’ve missed out on as a result.

Ideal situation, we keep Smoove, Chillz, sign a shooter/big man and compete. However, the longer this drags out, the least likely all of those things will happen.

By Antonio Gramsci

July 14, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

an informal meeting of the minds = late night booze session?

By Astro Joe

July 14, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

Ray, if it were the Knicks calling about Josh Smith, I think I would have pressed “Ignore Call” on my cell phone to avoid wasting my bucket of minutes. And there may be a few other teams that have absolutely nothing on their roster worth discussing, considering a trade would require a fairly large contract. Read yesterday that Dumars would go after Smith if we decide to go the S & T route. I think Rasheed has 1 year left and having his contract AND Bibby’s off the books in the summer would make us MAJOR free agent players (assuming that we have owners willing to spend). Throw in Maxiell and some picks and I’d have to give it some consideration, if (and only if) Rasheed and Woody have a good relationship from their championship run in Detroit. A one year run of Rasheed, Horford, Marvin, JJ and Bibby may be nice, especially with Law, Chill, Maxiell and Zaza holding down the bench.

By Sekou K. Smith

July 14, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

I’m trying to be realistic on what kind of players the Hawks can afford and could acquire folks. I mentioned LoWright because he’s the type of minimum salary big that’s out there. He might not be the answer but he’s the type of cat that will be out there when the Hawks finally handle their biz.

fudd21, you needed a badge for the Mike Miller/Joe Johnson event, particularly the golf and poker deal and the volleyball joint. But anybody with a gamblng Jones and transportation could come to the casino. And believe me, it was packed.

I don’t drink Antonio, so the booze session is out.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Sautee Sometimes I get a little punchy when I stay up late. Probably flashbacks from my 3rd shift time, long ago ;-)

After ray give me a kirknga move, I had to pull out a little Star Trek of my own. It’s at the end of the prior blog and there it shall stay. Time for a new mess.

I am ok with the Hawks identifying a contingency plan if they cannot handle the Josh & Josh RFAs. For it to work well, I’d imagine they had to speak with a Josh agent. No sign & trade unless player and two teams agree.

How does that play in Josh’s head?

They want me at all costs. They can’t afford me? They really like me. Sund doesn’t know me. If I take all the ASG cash will we suck because they cannot afford to fill the bench with anyone better than the tall guy in section 111..hmmm

I am sure that some free agent will fall from the sky and land in Sund’s office…or the trunk that granny has him locked in…or the closet he locked himself in. The Chicken Little Improvement Plan (CLIP) is on!

I heard LoWright has a new agent…Orville Redenbacker.

Where is Priest Lauderdale when you need him? ROFLMAO

By I.MUS WRITE

July 14, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

Whass up Ray- Capt of the BGC…… Amazing-other teams are Proactive in free agency and we are “inactive” …… this shouldnt be a suprise people -this has been our summers as hawks fans for the last 6-7 years. My wish list for valuable free agents is dry’n up quickly- but there are still guys that can come in and help ASAP.

I think we should offer F.Elson about 4 milli a year to play center- He is alot better than Kwame and he has good B Ball IQ….. I only want K Brown as a last result-I think he is one of the dumbest big men ever with Olawakandi topping the list. I saw this on another sight but- if we had to S&T Chills - Toronto would be good trading partners

Chills for Kaponno/delfino/Jawali

we get shooters and a yung Big with skill and attitude.

Salim fan_ Pargo is a really good player to bring in -luv his game….. provides shooting and can be a backup point.

S&T maybe Chillz For Pargo/Armstrong or Julian Wright

Dont bring back the worlds tallest practical joker -he is wack as hell and doesnt provide much IMO……..

Just say no to Lo

By Ben

July 14, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

I wouldn’t mind bringing Lo back, but didn’t he say he wanted to finish his career with a contender? I think we can contend if we finally round out our roster.

By Astro Joe

July 14, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

Sekou, if your bloggers take up a collection, can you get it to Solomon Jones? He obviously needs to buy a clue. I’ll donate my 75-cents that I usually spend on a USA Today, anyone else in?

By SSI Fan

July 14, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

It seems apparent that the absence of Hawks activity is occasioned by money or lack thereof. Not only have the remaining owners of ASG lost a lot more money each year than anticipated but they have to pay attorneys fees. Additionally, they have to either come up with enough money to buy Belkin’s share or convince some investor(s) to join their disfunctional group in order to continue their ownership. If they don’t Belkin gets to buy the others out for the amount of their original investment with no reimbursement for the losses which have been paid by them.

By Steve

July 14, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

Astro -

your first post was hillarious, your second made my day. Sheed along with horford down low??? That’d be amazing. Add JJ, Bibby and Marvin to that mix and we’d really have a great starting 5. I’d be surprised if Detroit would give Maxiell too, but I definitely would take it.

If that was the S&T offer, I’d have a tough time saying no - just imagine the players that the Hawks could go after next summer.

Although…I’m having a tough time imagining the Hawks actually “going after” anyone. Ever.

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

I.MUS The only reason I prefer Kwame is Because he is only (25). Elson I agree is Defenetly BETTER but he’s (32). I think with some good coaching Kwame can become a force. Besides he’s still young. He played well for LA before he got traded.

Manny…………….LOL!!!

By I.MUS WRITE

July 14, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

It looks like we wont have the muney to go after high profile guys after we sign the josh boi’z……. I think we will be stuck again looking at undrafted rookies or summer league guys…..If things turn out this way _i think Wayne Simmeon and justin williams would be good additions.

Simmeon has almost the same game as Horford-check him out on U-tube -maybe they are cuzinz or sumthing…… look really similar and j williams could be a great guy to come off the bench.

By Ben

July 14, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

How about we bring in Esteban Batista + Kwame Brown/Lo?

Oh wait, that would involve spending more than $10 on an NBDL player—nevermind

By Astro Joe

July 14, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

Sekou, seriously, where is ‘Nique or some other wise counselor to get in Solomon’s ear and tell him what he should be doing? How about JJ calling the young fella? Bibby? Damn, Speedy? This is just ridiculous that a raw big man would allow Justin Williams, Wayne Simeon and the African brother (O.O.) to show and prove in the summer league while he is doing what exactly?

And what does the signing of the Joshes have to do with hiring some freakin’ assistant coaches to help these young cats? Damn, I’m about to move to the dark side (again) and we haven’t even started the summer league. What a crock of incompetents that plague this franchise. MannyT, I need some of what you’re smoking/drinking because I am having problems bringing humor to this ongoing debacle.

1-2-3 UGHHHHHH!!!!

By FRANK

July 14, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

SEKOU: I dont suppose you were able to pry the name of the team that Sund talked to in case things ” GOT OUT OF HAND”. I imagine it was a Western Conferance team Sund talked to and the teams he refused to talk to were all Eastern Conferance teams.

By terrell barron

July 14, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this

Great read Sekou. All I got to say is, Damn Solomon, bad move! And LORENZEN WRIGHT? Are you kidding me!

By Sautee

July 14, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

Astro Joe

You’re sounding more and more like Anakin with each passing (so slowly) day. ;-)

By the way I think I read that Dumars said everyone but Stuckey and Maxiell are up for grabs. I guess you never know, though.

MannyT

Hilarious post about Lo’s new agent!!!!

By GM R

July 14, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

SS - word is that JS doesn’t want to play for Woody and wants another team to make an offer the Hawks would have to refuse. Sounds to me like he is out of here.

By BlackMyk

July 14, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

MannyT, great analogy in the last blog on WOODSON and the student!! i was thinkin’ along the same lines except i was thinkin’ ‘HINDSIGHT’ was more like the kid that would say all the right things to his parents so he wouldn’t get his a$$ tore up ‘cause he wasn’t doin’ as told. or better yet the kid that’s tryin’ to keep his allowance!!!! BTE (back to exile)!!!! RIDICULOUS!!!!

By Reggie

July 14, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

Sekou

Whats up with this, According to ESPN’s Ric Bucher Josh Smith wants out of Atlanta because of his relationship with Mike Woodson. Is there a chance of him going elsewhere because of that. What do you know about this?

By terrell barron

July 14, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

Salimfan, the Laker fans were BOOING Kwame.

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this

I think people are assuming that Smith wants really wants to remain a Hawk. We’ve read at least one story from ESPN that this might be the case. Perhaps that story should not be discounted so quickly.

Smith is free to come negotiate and sign with the Hawks and end this period of anxiety for his many fans out there, but he apparently is going to play this thing until the very last minute.

Again the spectre of an offer “this week” is raised yet again.Wasn’t an offer sheet supposed to be imminent last week, and the week before that as well?

Smith seems to be the first option to the Hawks only. I believe the lack of urgency in making an offer to him is a big clue that he is not seen as an clear “no brainer” , “must sign” type of player him on the part of other teams. I also believe it might also be a clue his first choice is to play elsewhere as he apparently doesn’t mind being placed on hold all of this time and is holding out hope.

The Hawks may have do without the beloved Josh Smith. This seems to be a theme included in every blog. Perhaps it is time for those who value Smith so very highly to start coming to terms with the possibility that he may take his exciting and undeniable athleticism to another franchise.

For those fans who see winning as the first priority and believe that it can be done with or without Smith, this is a two-way street. The organization must truly want him back and he must want to return fully committed to the team.

There has been discussion of the former ad nauseam but curiously not so for the latter. It would be nice to see loyalty and a sense of urgency and direction from both parties I would think.

In any case, it is intriguing these contingency plans we’re now being made aware of. Oh the possibilities. What teams? Which players? We can eliminate certain teams such as the Sixers, but it could be more than a handful of teams!

By Realist

July 14, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

Sekou, How on earth can you be “hit with a left hook [you] didn’t see coming” by the suggestion that the Hawks might sign-and-trade Josh Smith? Any observer with half a brain would realize that is one of the best, if not the best, option available to the Hawks right now.

Go out and do your job… find out what the proposed deals are, find out who the Hawks are talking to, find out who they hung up on! This is the news, not whether or not JJ has pretty ladies playing volleyball at his charity event.

See if you can find another source outside of Josh Smith’s agent, and maybe we’ll get some real reporting. One last thing, the Hawks didn’t SIGN JJ, they TRADED for him.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

Astro Joe I think doc suggested that we enjoy life in an earlier post. When I have fun with my day it goes better. I saw your fave 5 bad Hawks. That takes some imagination or mental enhancements to do as well.

I call this my Hawks all witness protection team. They were actually on the roster during Woody’s tenure, but never saw any real court time. Thus I had to eliminate from contention players like Royal Ivey (Faux starter), Predrag Drobnjak (too successful here-7th leading scorer)

C-John Edwards, F/C-Slava Medvedenko, F-Donta Smith, G-Tony Delk, G-Kenny Anderson. Honorable mention with special circumstances to Gary Payton.

As for this mess, you know I have more faith in winning the MegaMillions than I do in Woody right now. Those odds run about 175 Million to one. Yet I am still foolish enough to be a hopeful fan. If I could just find Sund & granny, I’d feel better. I hope she wasn’t driving that exploding Ford Pinto.

Here’s a Casey Kasom style shout out to granny, Sund, and our new free agents.

On the hopeful side, there are still the Brian Skinners & Aaron Williams’s out there that are probably cost effective and useful for our needs. Jeremy might be our shooter by default. He’s going to have to practice hitting that 3 from the deep, deep corner also known as the bench.

Empty pocket PAIN.

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

This blog brawler stuff must be getting to you. I see I’m gonna have to pull a Kirk on my own damn self just to set the record straight.

You Kirked me. That is funny. See next post for my version of the move Capt. Warp engines are warming up now.

*After ray give me a kirknga move, I had to pull out a little Star Trek of my own. *

Clearly it is time for me to register a trademark! This brand must be protected so that the freshness and wonderful flavor of it’s contrarian way isn’t chewed to banality by Agents of The Status Quo!

By terrell barron

July 14, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

I just saw Brian Butch in action. YIKES! Very slow and not very athletic. Could’nt hang with the young Hawks. Rather have Lorenzen. lol!

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

Realist it was kind of both. Because it was a sign & trade, all 3 parties (JJ, Hawks, Suns) had to agree. JJ was willing to come here as a free agent, but the Suns made the Hawks nervous enough to extract additional assets to let him go. This could be the same situation we are headed toward with Smith.

kirknga I think there is a $$$ amount that makes Woody tolerable, but we haven’t gotten to that offer. Part of this delay is a bunch of RFAs trying to get the best deal. Because Smith seems to be at the top of the list, he sets the market for the others. Notice that no other top RFAs have signed either. All the activity is with folks in Marvin’s draft class.

Also sign & trades open the market for Josh to all teams that have useful assets. You want some old dudes with playoff experience, call the Spurs. Forget about getting any of their top players. For example, Astro Joe didn’t want to pick up that Knicks call, but if the deal includes a draft pick that is not lottery protected…hmmmmm. D’Antoni is NOT going to make Eddie Curry fast no matter how much coaching he does.

If you are willing to take on Marbury’s contract, you can call the Knicks collect at $12/minute and they’ll be happy to take that call. I’m sure they can include David Lee if you take the Marbury lead balloon.

Think of all the Starbury shoes you can give to the kids in need ;-)

Good CRAP for the United Way squad, PAIN for the Hawks.

By Sekou K. Smith

July 14, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

I dig your style Realist. Snarky with a little bite (even if you are confusing your opinions with facts).

But if the word has been repeatedly that the Hawks are adamant about matching offers to Josh Smith we should all expect that to be the case (even if

The best option to the Hawks right now would be to put an offer on the table and have Smith sign it and they move on. Any observer with half a brain knows that. Sign-and-trades tend to be fool’s gold for the team giving up the best player (ask the Suns), another topic I’m sure you know all about since you’re educating us all on doing our jobs.

And whatever dream scenario you’ve cooked up in your brain about what the Hawks might get in exchange for Smith, don’t play yourself. They’re not getting anything near equal in return for a 22-year-old cat who can fill a stat sheet the way Smith does.

This all reminds me of the same thing I see playing out elsewhere with the restricted free agents in Chicago and Philly, with folks putting a higher value on someone else’s cast offs over their own young prizes. It’s the faulty logic that has plagued the goofy NBA franchises for years.

The sign-and-trade for JJ was held up on the Hawks’ end, you might remember that little ownership dispute that rose out of that deal, and like I said above, they didn’t get him signed until after half the month of August had passed.

As for those of you who keep repeating this stuff about Josh Smith not wanting to be here, believe the hype if you want to. All I know is that the kid’s never said anything to me, on or off the record, about not wanting to play here and not wanting to play for Woodson.

And Woodson’s as adamant as anyone about Smith returning to this team, Childress, too. He made that clear to me last week when we spoke.

I know the plot thickener about Smith and Woodson being at odds sounds cute on the radio and looks sexy from afar, but it’s just not true.

Astro Joe, JJ mentioned that he spoke to Solomon about summer league and the importance of being there. But Solomon Jones is his own man and made his own decision. We’ll know the consequences of that action by training camp.

By Reggie

July 14, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

Sekou

Thanks for clearing that up for us. I have three free agents that come to mind as fits for this team.What do you think about: 1. Kelenna Azubuike, Warriors

1. Bostjan Nachbar, Nets

2. Michael Finley, Spurs

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

TB, I just knew butch would be like that from the vid’s I had seen of him.

Also I had completly forgotten abouy Kwame getting booed lol. Sure he bobbled/Dropped a couple of easy passes from kobe, and missed a few point blank dunks………..But he played good defense (Fishing for a positive)…he’s tall???

We’ll hpefully Wayne Simeion(Don’t know why he fell with in Miami) or someone can come in and give us quality minutes.

I remeber Morris now. He plaed against Dwight Howard in HS. He has a younger brother who looks just like him.

Sekou, Did you talk to Mike Miller?? Specifically where he wants to go when his contract’s up. Or if he would mind being traded for Bibby??? I love Bibby BTW, but you never know. Acie’s good. Then you could back him up with Carlos Arroyo or Jason Williams (Both Free Agents)…..Oh that’s right we have the ASG. What was I thinking????

I’d be advertising to every player I saw lol. But until our management get’s fixed I sure players are probably hesitant.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

kirknga You call me an agent of the status quo

Search the blogosphere and show me how I am status quo.

Do your cut and paste thing…go ahead make my day ;-)

I didn’t think the phasers were even on you, much less set to stun. Do I have to call Lt. Worf for some battle gear? Let me get that asbestos suit out of the closet.

As I mentioned in a prior post, Doowhuchyalike

WAF

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 2:52 PM | Link to this

If Smith is committed to staying a Hawk, and if Woodson is adamant about Smith returning, and if ASG has repeatedly said they will match any offer, then what’s really the issue here?

If it is true that all relevant parties want the same thing, then there should be a deal already. Otherwise, one or more of those propositions may not be so true.

I’ll repeat a question I asked earlier. Since the received wisdom is that this period of intransigence is all entirely the fault of ASG, then what price brings Smith to sign today?

Also, if other RFA’s are unsigned by their organizations, then why is it that the Hawks are pointed to as being cheap and/or incompetent?

Why is Smith not signed with another team yet, surely these other teams see how he can fill a stat sheet? Seems as if he should’ve been signed very soon after Brand was signed, why the lack of urgency I wonder?

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

Reggie, Kelenna Azubuike is Restricted, and we all know how tricky that is. Especially when there are stll guys in free agent land who can do the exact same thing. (probably at a cheaper price too considering we don’t have to compete with a team LOTS of cap space).

By Astro Joe

July 14, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

Sekou, thanks, I won’t ask for any donations. Too bad he’s not listening to sound advice. I know the summer league is not exactly the perfect place for a big man to get touches and develop his game, but like you said, at least be there to show your new GM what you have to offer the team. When you read that your young summer league PG is busting his butt to show his skills in the SL, why wouldn’t you want to be on the receiving end of his dribble penetration passes? What does he think Speedy will be doing, shooting bombs from deep? No, he’ll be looking for someone who is filling the wing on a fast break. Actually, the more I think about it, the more stupid it is that Solomon is not playing. Heck, I bet my lard-butt could get 10 points in the summer league if I’m playing with 2 PGs trying to prove their worth. (Assuming that I can stand at one end of the court and wait for the play to come back to me, ala Burpin’ Turpin or Hot Plate Williams).

1-2-3 WTF?

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

BlackMyk after the prior blog, I’m thinking we’ll be tag teaming from Woody exile for awhile.

I hope I’m wrong, but if not we can get 3 on 3 wrasslin going when we find Clyde. For the rest of you, Clyde will be the one with 1/2 a t-shirt ;-)

Let me tell you why the root of this evil is Wood. When you go to the WAFFLE house and see the ball in play, just wait for a TO, bruthaaaahhh. After that TO when you see a TO you will know that the beat down is coming from friendly fire…if you know what I mean. You lost your Fiz and now there’s a hole in the whole coaching thing. No youth, just truth. Time to tag out and face your fears. The smackdown came from the sidelines. I just put my foot his chest to get the ref to count it out. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

By Matt

July 14, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

Well, can’t blame JJ as long as he made the effort. Solomon probably thinks that since he stunk up the gym in summer league last year. He had 32 points and 17 rebounds total in 6 games…along with 29 fouls. I know they call lots of fouls in the summer league, but he actually led the Revue in personal fouls while averaging 5.3 points and 2.8 rebounds per game. That’s bad by any measure. In case you’re curious, here’s the link.

Anyway, I hope he’s spending his summer doing something productive. Like eating.

By sohappy

July 14, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

“Kirknga” I hope Smith signs an offer sheet with the Clippers just so you can look even more like the fool that you are. The Hawks are cheap because they haven’t mmade an offer to the “top restricted FA”. When Smith is settled you will see other RFA deals start to happen. Once again as always instead of being proactive and signing something fair with their own players. They make both of them go out and solicit offers. Do you think that would make you happy at your job?

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

MannyT

No need to search, no need to cut and paste.

Do you deny being part of the small group that does 80% of the dispensing of wisdom, justice, and the Hawks Blog way here?

You know, the group that invokes the names of others as an inside joke.(Flattered though)

Phasers? Um,as a member of the Continuum I fear not your weapons or your Klingon beast, no matter how noble he may be. Perhaps I should call that Borg chick up again?

So really, what is that price that the Hawks have not offered Smith to induce an immediate signing?

By Reggie

July 14, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

SalimFan

I dont think the warriors will sign Kelenna Azubuike, remember they drafted Marco Belinelli. They also signed Corey Maggette,and still have Stephen Jackson. They all play the same position as Kelenna Azubuike. I believe the Warriors will let him go even as a Restricted free agent.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

Astro Joe register for the contest when you enter Philips on game day. You could be at the end of the bench.

RIght after Spirit the Hawk flies down, they will call out a seat number and down comes the 13th man ;-)

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

Matt I second your opinion. Solo needs to go on an eating excursion. Childress on the other hand, is a lot beffier than he appears to be on television.

Update on Jason Williams

He’s one of the players I follow so I had to see what he was up too…….YOU KNOW, he’d be a lot cheaper than Bibby. At this point intheir careers i’d rather have Bibby’s shooting but, you pretty much get the same thing for a cheaper price.

By doc

July 14, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

i think it is RFA collusion.

solo, has never seemed that smart to me, sad we didnt get the kid that ended up in utah i think available at the time who ando loved pre-draft. aj i am donating to the fund but he may not be able to find his way to pick it up. DUMB and you have to wonder who is advisor is or does he have a team lined up when he is cut. i say maybe in europe somewhere since he might get some play time there when he knows strict rotation woody wont give him play time no matter what he does on the court because we know it is all about PRACTICE which we can never see to begin to question woody. the whole practice thing sounds like a lesson learned from larry, no? feel for him but if speedy is willing to humble himself to fall on his knees to abide(okay poor analogy considering speedy’s problems) then he should as well.

seems like kirk has a penchant for going after the most glib and poignant bloggers, sam, sautee and now manny t. good compny and a bit envious. still give kirk merit for some of his observations but doesnt he relize how contentiios it is to argue if all are in a bullet by bullet manner? just say what you want without trying to go after someone, we all get it.

manny t i dropped a blog note somewhere in the blogosphere saying earlier today that i have not gotten my tix yet until i get some clarification as to what kind of a team they are fielding. right now, i am out 500 bucks defintly for seats for next year to have the solid seats that i had for the playoffs though technically out another 1000 as i wait until i either issue a recall or buy their product in full and shell out another 1000 bucks for two seats. i sort of think that just to be able to be around you, jhan and volman on a consistent basis would be fun, just not 2000 bucks worth unless the hawks have a worthy product. the 2 tix seem like fun for me and the kids including ando my adopted illegitimate son from my teens i never had and so i am inclined to go ahead in case they let everything fall through the cracks. if they are somewhere in between i might suggest getting to know where your seats are to sit close or next to you and offer trades occasionally when appropriate to either bring a child or allow you to do the same. otherwise i might have to await the good graces of jhan to send me an offer i cant refuse, a ticket for me and all the beer and pretzels he can eat. fortunately he is not a glutton and stops at one of each with an occasional peanut thrown in.

aj, my friend got your a game on guy. better watch out kirk might come gunning for you yet.

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

Looks Like Olando Reall wants to deal JJ

Orlando doesn’t have a whole lot of cap space left. So we sign some D-Leauge guy to a 10-day contract and trade him for Redick. It works for both parties. The Hawks Get another shooter and Orlando frees up room to sign more of their needs. Like Jason Williams.

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Reggie, I see your point. The Warriors have quietly been making some moves in spite of the Baron Davis Blow up. If Azibuke Is there we should defenetly take him. He’s easily one of the most Athletic SG’s on the market now that Peitrus is gone. Mo Evans is the other. Not to mention he shoots threes.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

So have you been assimilated? If I recall, resistance is futile. As a part of the Q continuum you’re mighty powerful. PS I’m not a trekkie, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn ;-)

I don’t think I dispense justice. I have tried to be a decent member of a community. I do add context relative to things that have been posted. I did note the difference between the style and the content of your words and have generally been supportive.

I am guilty of stream of consciousness thought. Thus the Capt Kirk to Star trek idea yesterday. I think I even urned the names on myself during an odd night where movie themes put MAN A TEE with MIDGETS. I opted for mermaids.

I do debate ideas, but I don’t blog brawl except in the non serious wrasslin way that was a side topic awhile back.

It’s all good on my end. If I offended, my bad. I’ll call of the trekking right now.

I think as recently as the last blog, folks were getting a bit personal and I tried to pull things back to basketball (locating Brian Butch).

I’ve got no specific price for Josh, but I do have an answer to your prior post. It’s coming next…

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

Status quo reporting for Groundhog Day!

I’ll repeat a question I asked earlier. Since the received wisdom is that this period of intransigence is all entirely the fault of ASG, then what price brings Smith to sign today?

Not entirely the fault of ASG. I’m sure he’d sign for the MAX. There is likely a lower acceptable number, but you know that is true I don’t have the inside connections to know any of these offers.

Part 2

Also, if other RFA’s are unsigned by their organizations, then why is it that the Hawks are pointed to as being cheap and/or incompetent?

In an industry with few comapnies/teams and high media visibility, perceptions are often more ciritcal than reality. Note this post from July 9

The ASG has to overcome some reputation issues to make things move in a positive direction. On the positive side, they got JJ from the Suns. On the negative side, almost everything else. Ownership divorce over the most positive move they made. Less than loved GM replaced by less than loved Sonics former GM. GM put into funky position of making decisions on lots of folks he has not seen during season OR meddling management making those decisions. Coach with winning percentage lower than Terry Stotts was extended. No notable unrestricted free agents have come here since they bought the team. I am not calling them bad, but unfortunately they do fit the costume that the Ceasar Romero left behind in the 1960s.

This is the perception of PAIN that makes it more difficult to attract talent.

By TheHawksFan

July 14, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

This really does sounds like a Strong team for the summer. Looking for Bigs and MAYBE a stop loss for Josh n Josh. Seems like Mr. Sund has put some work in. Maybe Solo will change his mind before Thursday. He will miss the boat for sure when the season starts with these guys playing. Still a long wayyss to go till Oct.31 to see final roster, though it will probably be set the 1st week of pre season.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

doc I understand your position on the tix. I had 2 behind Volman for $400 the past few years in the 300s. When my out of town pals came, I’d get better seats.

Now that the Bob Uecker seats have doubled in price, I got 1 of the $999s. Too bad for my neighbor that usually came on my dime. When others want to come, I’ll buy extra seats. I’d be glad to sit near you for swaps as needed. I can live with 25-30 games instead of 41. If you are in the season tix deal, those $999s are only 23/game for extras which is a good price for occasional use. Not that I am implying my luck wil carry over, but the last time I went into a season ticket pool, it was in Ann Arbor for the NCAA championship run that that Glen Rice et al made in 89.

Until granny surfaces with Sund and the free agents, I’d wait for jhan’s seats. I’m just getting to the lower level. I’ll take my time getting to those seats.

This Hawks season ticket ad was not paid for or sanctioned by the ASG, but I think they are OK with it.

SalimFan I didn’t read the link, but I recall Redick saying, play me or trade me. He might be had for cash or a 2nd round pick if they need to clear cap space. Sadly, he makes over $2 mil. That money would have been better spent on Jarvis Hayes if we were dealing earlier this month.

What is happening on the Sund-dial?

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

seems like kirk has a penchant for going after the most glib and poignant bloggers, sam, sautee and now manny t. good compny and a bit envious. still give kirk merit for some of his observations but doesnt he relize how contentiios it is to argue if all are in a bullet by bullet manner? just say what you want without trying to go after someone, we all get it.

I have only defended myself. I have never “gone after” MannyT I have no reason to, I find his comments to be rational,entertaining, and often informative. I do not want to go after you doc as I have no reason, even though we disagree on some basketball issues.

(Not going after someone should stand for everyone, but I digress.) I wonder if I simply agreed with received wisdom would there be any issues?

Like I said, I assume most here are Hawks fans so there is no need to “go after” anyone.People disagree about basketball matters. But I’m not anyone’s punk either. I will stand and defend myself rather than post a comment and run.

Ok, now that doc is squared away, there are only a few remaining in the Hawks blog pantheon that have not shared a what’s wrong with Kirk comment.

Thanks for the balanced perspective doc, I find that fair.

Now, if someone can please tell what amount the Hawks should have offered Smith so as to avoid this impasse? Also why Smith’s agents would have let him sign for that amount? And since he’s such a stat column filler why he hasn’t been the 1st option for any other team as of yet?

By ray

July 14, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

Touche, Manny. But I maintain my stance that all I was doing was giving the guy credit for hindsight recognition that I didn’t think he was capable of. Painting that as giving him a full pass for everything else when I clearly said he had to follow through on that is just not right. Thanks for the C4. It cleared my sinuses. And that Star Trek stuff was hilarious. We could go with that one for a while…

Kirk, it was a joke. Your style is unique and it’s recognized. What’s bad about that? Yes, you should get a trademark. Manny has a couple (WAF being the best), LOL! As for the Status Quo group….there’s no problem in admitting that there is a somewhat small contingent of us that talks more than anybody else. I won’t admit to it being a dispensing of wisdom because it’s just opinion. I like the way you phrase it, but we both know that’s just perception on your part and not how we really feel about ourselves. We like each other, we like the blog, we like the Hawks. We make time to come here fairly often. I’d say with the exception of one of those concepts, you qualify as no different.

Your continual mention of this “group” is interesting, however. If it obviously exists, yet you stand independent of it and all other things, seeking neither praise, nor validation, nor approval…then why keep bringing it up? You are sending signals, but do you imagine what those signals might seem to say? Surely you understand that each person’s perception is their reality.

Whether you like it or not, whether you care or not, people do give you credit for your contributions. You make some damn good points, even if I haven’t always liked the way you made your points. I have to admit to being distracted by some of your…surrounding speech patters, if you will. I won’t blame you for that, but will instead chalk it up to my own misinterpretation or taking it wrong. Anyhow, I hope you’re not taking this as criticism or anything like that. That is NOT how it’s meant. I’m just having conversation.

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

Thanks MannyT.

I see neither party without blame, though I think they both are acting in their best interest. I guess we’ll disagree that the point of emphasis should be on ASG only.

I noticed in your indictment of ASG, you failed to mention that they stepped-up and kept the team under local ownership(as it stands now). Or that the coach(I’m not a big fan) with the losing record also has shown improvement each season including ending a longstanding playoff drought such that an extension does have some rational basis. Or that in the NBA , with it’s salary cap rules,it is rare to see much movement of high-impact free agents(like in baseball and football) much less FA’s that have lead a team to a championship.

I believe trades, not free agency are the best vehicles for improvement in the NBA. As such, the Hawks are in a good position to effect trades and sign and trade deals. They have room to maneuver which is not a sign of incompetence.

Again, I guess it’s point of emphasis that the difference here.

By cp

July 14, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

Looks like granny blew a gasket.. Im not even shocked anymore by what this front office does. Im prepared for the worst… I actually would not mind having Donta Smith on the team. The kid never really got a chance to show his game. He can play the 2 spot which could give JJ a few minutes to rest…. If Justin Williams plays like he was with the Kings at one point then Solo might be losing his spot. Williams is a good shot blocker and can rebound. Im ready to see Acie in the summer league.

By BT

July 14, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

Why are we so Cap Space limited? The only big contract is JJ and the only real stupid contract is Speedy? I have probably missed something.

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

ray!!

Thank Goodness!! The thought of going a day without critique from you, well the thought is unbearable really!

I honestly do not see what agitates some to the point it has. Like I said, if I had been assimilated(sorry I’m a Trekkie and had to get one more in) and simply rolled with the pro-Smith, anti-ASG pathos, would “style be an issue?

“Yeah, you agree with me, darn it your style of agreement just isn’t right though!” Repent!

I recognize the humor of others and hope that mine is recognized as well.

As always, it’s great to be kicked..um, er, uh..hear from you gain today. Hope you’re well!

By doc

July 14, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

kirk, never took you for a punk, just a little more vociferous here than at the mib. cool we like the camaraderie if you hadnt noticed and like the added dimensions you give at the liars table that all are welcome to pull a chair to.

btw, we are not too serious with each other or ourselves if you hadnt noticed as we poke fun at each other and our selves. we do like to talk basketball and realize it is like ando’s groundhog day scenario so we have to embellish it a bit for entertainment purposes. if one doesnt like it they can banter or scroll but the nasty stuff usually rolls off like the water on a duck’s back. as you have noticed at least those of value we do treat with a response otherwise you notice regular folks here tend to do the scroll thing and those other folks fade away as they realize they just are irrelevant. i guess you can take it as a back handed compliment.

btw i hope yu are right because i am poised to buy tix if you are. from the discussion above i guess you can say my money is where my mouth isnt as if i am wrong it costs me not you. heh heh i also date back to bob petit days as a hawks fan before they even came to atlanta preferring the underdogs against the celts way back when.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this

BT Most NBA teams are over the cap. We are under the cap, but once you add the cap hold for MLE (mid level exception) and BLE (biannual level exception) and cap holds for both Joshes we are at or just over the cap. If we don’t use the BLE or MLE we might be able to use that cap space for a player worth the combined levels because we would be under cap if we did so. (Not positive on this one, but I think it is allowed.)

As soon as we sign a Josh, his cap hold goes away and it is replaced by actual salary, which will eat up more of the cap. That is why Philly had to sign Brand before their RFAs.

We opted for CLIP

By doc

July 14, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

yep you have bt, like a 15 mil contract to bibby. so half of cap is for two players and not even the guys we said we were building around for the future. but we did get into the playoffs and manny t has slept in a holiday inn express.

By ray

July 14, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

Kirk, some good points again. I’ll take a gander towards your questions. First, I think Smith should’ve been offered (or perhaps re-offered) something more along the lines of $55 million. Maybe a bit less, maybe a bit more. The reason being that organic growth was what was being counted on here. We haven’t been able to make any sort of big splash free agency-wise since Joe Johnson. Nor will we (I think).

I haven’t said this before (and I should have), but I question the prowess of Smith’s agents. This is Josh’s first rodeo so to speak, and I don’t know how…business savvy he is. I’m guessing not very. His agents probably have screwed this up as much as anybody. Yes, I’m very willing to concede that point, which I believe you have alluded to before. As for why signing him to that amount, I don’t know. He’s got two agents. I don’t know how good these guys are, but at the moment…I’m not overly impressed. Still, what judgement can I render, not knowing more inside details?

Lastly, I think Josh isn’t anybody’s number 1 option because of his unique skill set. He’s a forward tweener, so to speak. Able to play both positions at any given time, but not a solid, text book definition of either forward spot. He’s not a dead to rights reliable low post scorer. His outside shot doesn’t make him the ideal small forward, in a lot of people’s books. Everybody seems to have either a great, good, or at least serviceable small forward. Those that don’t get a sizeable 2-guard to do the job (like Charlotte-are Wallace and Richardson really 2-guards or small forwards?). Elton Brand has set the tone for the entire market. The emphasis this year has been, therefore, on the prototypical power forward. Elton, Jamison, Okafor. Next in line are the forwards who can play both (but not the power spot ALL the time). Marion, Smith, Deng. That’s why I think Josh is not the top option. It’s not his segment or bracket. He’s a versatile guy who does a LOT across the stat sheet. But you have to decide if you want overlapping players or players with more specific roles/positions. Most teams so far have gone with the specific 1-5 spots. The rest are trying to decide whether to go that route or the overlapping route. Smith is caught up in a situation that I don’t think he, nor his agents, nor anybody else saw. Had Brand stayed with the Clippers, as Jamison did with the Wizards….I think we’d be seeing something completely different right now.

It’s kind of funny, actually. The NBA tends to be a big bowl of trends come trade deadline or free agency freedom. It’s nearly always follow the leader. Look what happened when Gasol got traded to L.A. this past season…

By McGeorge Bundy

July 14, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

kirknga

beware hubris

By Ted Bundy

July 14, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

kirknga

McGeorge is right. No hubris and I never get caught.

By BT

July 14, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

Forgot about the Bibby contract. Thanks for your help.

If Solomon is too lazy to play in the summer doesn’t that show you why he hasn’t progressed in his first two years.

By Al Bundy

July 14, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

kirknga

Peg said I had too much hubris, but I was just following your example.

Now where’s that slut daughter of mine.

By HB Ando

July 14, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this

Matt, I wasn’t referring to you, specifically. I’m too indifferent to go back and read all the posts between visits. It was a general comment regarding my belief that folks are overvaluing the upside of the Hawks, should they maintain the status quo.

Curiously, not long after you highlighted your opinion that the rest of the East was none to impressive, as they project to compete with these world-beating Hawks, SS quotes JJ, our star player, as saying,

“We have to be ready to go as a unit when training camp hits. The rest of the East is loading up and getting ready to chase Boston.”

I’ll go out on a limb and suggest that JJ’s opinion of his Eastern Conference competition is slightly more qualified than yours. And since mine is too, and runs concurrent with JJ’s take, I’ll stick to my guns and suggest that most all of the teams in the East HAVE gotten better, this summer, while we may, at best, stand pat.

And all these references to organic improvement, for the Hawks, seem to ignore that most of our opponents have young talent that will also benefit from such a progression (Igoudala, L. Williams and T. Young, in Philly, D. Harris, Yi and the very legitimate looking B. Lopez, in NJ, Gordon, Deng, Rose, T. Thomas and Noah, in Chicago, a healthy Wade, a full-season of Marion, and the addition of an immediate superstar, in Beasley, in Miami, just the obvious improvement that replacing Isiah with D’Antoni will bring, in NY, Pietrus and another year of improvement from the most dominant, young big man in the league, in Howard, in Orlando, if healthy, the addition of a perinneal all-star, in O’neal, added to Bosh and the new full-time starter/star, Calderon, in Toronto, not to mention another year of “organic improvement” for Bargnani, and the addition of a talented head coach, in Porter, as well as a top-15 scoring wing, in Jefferson, in Milwaukee. Even Charlotte has added Larry Brown, who, with the exception of NY, has immediately improved every NBA team he has ever coached).

We, on the other hand, haven’t improved our roster one bit, and extended a clearly, and fatally, flawed head coach. And the projected team salary, just to keep this bad team together, is at least $10 million more than ownership has ever committed to a season, since they’ve taken over.

Yeah, lot’s of reasons to believe these Hawks have no where to go but up.

Give me a turn with those rose-colored glasses……..

By Tyger

July 14, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this

Cant blame Solomon

I cant blame Solo for sitting this one out, he has very little to gain from playing in another summer league. Last year, he struggled and in fact looked worse coming out of the RMR.

Moreover, with such uncertainty hanging over this franchise this summer why expose yourself to injury with overzealous rookies and free agents.

We know what Solo can do, he has proven himself over and over again, with little playing time to show for it. Moreover, we dont know the organizations plans for Solo, for all we know he may already know he’s on the first plane outta here.

And I’m sure there are plenty of teams that would love a young, high energy blocking machine with a couple NBA seasons under his belt.

Like Salim, Solo may just cool his heels and wait on his fresh start elsewhere; no need in slaving away on the summer auction block for a franchise thats shown you no love.

By ray

July 14, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this

Kirk, no kicking from me, I promise. Rather “kick it” with ya.

I’ll not deny repentance on my part is due. What do you think of my perspective on Smith, his agents, the situation as a whole? Agree, disagree? I’m really flying blind with the figure that I think Smith should be offered/signed for. To be honest, because Sekou reported the $45 million dollar offer, I figured if anything else was kicked around, that would be reported to. Not a good assumption, but an assumption all the same.

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this

McGeorge Bundy (or whoever)

Feel free to act out anytime you wish!

ray

I like how both you and MannyT have offered not a specific number but a range of possibility to answer the question. I believe this is rational and wise(though I was savaged for a similar answer).

Would it not be sound advice for Smiths agents to advise testing the market. We’ve all overlooked that it could be daddy that has driven this situation as well.

With due respect to Sekou, I’m not convinced we really know how much he wants to be a Hawk. Absence of evidence is not proof of evidence in this situation with money and possibly deep feelings in the equation.

I like the question because it helps me understand those who see ASG in a mostly negative light.

I’m not sure I agree organic growth only. I believe the discussion here has involved the addition of a big and a shooter. In fact, a major part of the critique has been that ASG has not signed anyone which leads me to conclude that there was an expectation outside of organic growth.

I do find your assessment of Smith balanced and intriguing. It’s certainly far more nuanced than calling him a filler of stat columns. It certainly, in my opinion, does not portray a player who is worth this much worry, or am I missing something?

I have to ask these questions, not as provocateur as I think some believe, but in order to further think through the prevailing wisdom.

Funny you mention the Gasol trade, as many here underestimated his capabilities during the past trade season. I can’t help but wonder what would have happened if the Hawks had been able to add both Bibby and Gasol last season? We’ll never know unfortunately.

Through it all, organic growth or more, I do not see the balance of power shifting in the East. Maybe after next season, but not this one. To me, the Hawks, Smith or no Smith, are in a battle for either the 7th or 8th spot.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

kirgnga I don’t hate the ASG, but they really need PR folks. As for local ownership, one of the other cursed regulars might say follow the money. The team IS local, the ownership, not so much. The power is in DC. The figureheads are here. Levenson put a big chunk of change in this deal. He also brought in Belkin when there was not enough cash in GA to get it done. If the JJ fracture had been 7-2 with Levenson on Belkin’s side—game over.

I may have another ASG scoop as they clean house. No more Chief Marketing Officer. They seem to have executive neutron bombs around there. I met Lou and liked him. I could say the same for Bill Duffy. I’ve got to stop meeting these folks at season tix events—they all get gone too soon afterward 8-0

For speed of posting, I’ll agree to disagree on Woody, but let’s bring this free agency/trade thing to light. You can say that trades were the GMs responsibility. I do not know what the ASG may have said or instructed during BKs tenure. I do know that we had cap room and a trade exception after Al Harrington left. I believe it expired as an unused asset. The MLE is available every year. I don’t think we have used it since the ASG took over. I know the most notable unrestricted free agent in their tenure was Chris Paul’s backup—Craig Claxton. Free agents are better than trades because they are pure additions instead of calculations on addition and subtraction.

When I mention free agents, you won’t see my postings plotting for the 2010 class of LeBron, D Wade, Chris Bosh. My focus for this summer was a little improvement in the form of roster balance. Not Elton Brand & Baron Davis, nor RFA outside of our own, but value players to strengthen the bench. Our cap space comes next summer when Bibby, Pachulia, & Jones provide over $20mil in cap space. We have had no visible success with the DeSagana Diop, Jarvis Hayes, James Jones, Mikael Pietrus, class of free agents. These players were available to almost every team because their ceiling was the MLE. When all teams can essentially offer you the same money, the deciding factor in not monetary. These are the areas that the Hawks are not winning the perception battle.

There was an ESPN article that highlighted these concerns for the Clippers. We are in that same poor perception bucket. The ASG is starting to look like the unattractive gal at the bar. While she might have a great personality, no one knows unless she starts to chat it up. We are not winning free agents with our coy, silent approach.

CLIP

By doc

July 14, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this

quack quack ,youkilllis in the boston lineup with plenty of people on and plenty of folks to hide behind the prior seasons has power numbers that dont come close to roachy. probably about the same in the field and the folks we traded for have not been able to get into too many games and tex not being able to be labeled as the guy who can carry the team like chipper has or andruw did three years back.

you can feel what you want about roachy just no numbers to back it up. this might be the year youkillis evens it up in if you were to compare the two, but yes youkillus hits for a better avg if that is what you want. not saying roachy is end all just stable and carrying a bigger load without protection around him in pittsburg. also just gave up a ton of prospects to find his short lived replacement.

what ever, if we miss the playoffs both years gamble lost is the only way it can be framed except there will be a few draft picks to go after next year that might make it by 2012.

By MannyT

July 14, 2008 6:35 PM | Link to this

kirknga First your number game was with Sautee. I believe you guys went around the barn for days and never resolved it. I don’t think I stuck my nose in that one.

Second. I don’t have a legitimate answer for the reasons I explained above about the RFA class.

Note my comments here from June 30th In the name of I don’t care much but I do have a PEST (predictive events sphere of truth!) I’ll give you a number 5yr/60 mil. Starts at 10 and goes up 1 mil each yr. If it is lower than this Smith gets early termination option after yr 3 where he can be an unrestricted free agent with max bargaining power (unless collective bargaining agreement changes things.)

Third, I also do not agree with organic growth only. If the ASG truly did, they probably would have worked their way back into the draft to get a pick. The consensus position has always been get a vet or two to help season this roster. No vets means no seasoning.

It is shaping up to get me lots of extra leg room in 108 by January.

Fourth—notice how I do make a real effort to answer a real question (regarding the perception of the ASG). No problem. Working hard to pull me into the number guessing game isn’t that interesting to me. I am very comfortable with my quantitative skills, but that is not really what you want out of the Josh contract question. I hope you got what you wanted on that one.

Gotta run for other things. Not ducking anything while I’m gone. I may check back early on the night shift.

CLIP

By doc

July 14, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this

manny t nice to know all is well in BASG land and it is business as usual done the” right way”.

interesting how the last one ended up here. cool. sorry for the inconvenience as i had done some research and it must have flipped it to the hawks blog.

By ray

July 14, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this

Kirk, thanks.

I think my particular biggest gripe with the ASG has been their public and ongoing battle. There is still a decision to be rendered next February on that end. There’s just too many of them. I don’t feel that things are stable. How can they be when they have become estranged to a former member whose personal stake is nearly a third of the whole thing? I was excited about things when they first hit the scene. No more dark ages, I said to myself. Then the split happened, and suddenly they couldn’t sign any contracts for more than 4 years and stuff like that. Elation quickly turned to disappointment, then anger. I should’ve gotten over it, but it’s like one limited move after another has happened. Anyway, I really should just leave it alone, I could write on it for days. I just am not confident in these guys because they allowed their own personal business problems to be a problem for this team and franchise as a whole. I don’t know…

As for Josh Smith, I believe as you do. But I think it’s a difference in timing. I believe that the idea is that Smith really wanted to be a Hawk before last year, and during last year. Right now? I don’t know. The question is this: what does Josh Smith really think, and how much is he influenced by those agents. I don’t think the young fella is dumb. But I don’t think he’s brilliant, either. And he’s very impressionable. I think you can see where I’m going with that. I won’t take the blame away from him, but I have to say I figure he’s easily influenced, too. My overall impression of Josh is that he needs solid leadership, and not just on the court. He requires it. Dennis Rodman did too. Josh is just one of those guys. I think that for him to be truly successful and reach his potential, outside influences will have to reach out to him and find out what it takes to help him. Though they are second year players, I think both Horford and Law have this ability. Horford clearly had Josh’s ear during the playoff wins. JJ’s method is to not do much talking, and just set the example. That’s not good enough to keep Josh in the flow. But then, maybe that’s just not JJ’s role.

I’d say Smith is not worth this much worry if he doesn’t want to be here. If he does, then he’s worth it…if and only if the coaches and team have what it takes to get the maximum impact out of him. I’ve said it time and again: from a team perspective, if we can get better by moving him, then he’s got to go. From a personal perspective, If he’s only going to get better by going to a place that he fits more efficiently or can receive what he needs to reach his potential, then he should go.

I really have to wonder what kind of sign and trade deals have come up, and which ones are on the back burner if it comes to that. Personally, the term “sign and trade” gets me all amped up. I’m always interested in a sign and trade!

“Absence of evidence is not proof of evidence”. How very true, and none moreso than in my own profession/occupation. Very good point, and one I should not have lost sight of.

By Matt

July 14, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

Alright, Ando. I don’t know why you can expect “continued improvement” from players like Deng and Gordon in Chicago, who backtracked the past two years. And you’re the first person that I’ve heard call Michael Beasley an “immediate superstar.” You also didn’t explain how either Chicago or Miami could contend for a playoff spot when neither team has a single solid big man. You also failed to specify why having a healthy Bibby and a healthy Acie isn’t at least as important for the Hawks as, say, signing Jarvis or Pietrus was for the other teams.

Since I posted all this in the last thread, I shouldn’t rehash all this, and this’ll be my last post on it for a few days, at least. My point is that every team in the East save Boston and Detroit has at least 1-2 major holes in their starting five, even if everyone’s healthy. Most of the teams (esp. Miami, Toronto, Chicago, and Washington) also have serious, serious depth problems on the bench. I admit that I have rose-colored glasses, but I don’t see any gaping holes in the Hawks’ starting 5; I know, you’re going to say Marvin, but most GMs would hardly call a 21-year old averaging 15ppg a “gaping hole.” They have a thinnish bench, but no moreso than the rest of the East.

In any case, I’d take the Hawks’ 5 over the starting 5 of all but 4-6 teams in the East any day. So long as the Hawks add at least 1 respectable veteran free agent using their bi-annual or midlevel, I have a tough time finding 8 teams in the East who could finish ahead of them.

By ray

July 14, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

Well, I didn’t say that this was about organic growth only. I said it seemed to be what was being counted on. I think we can agree that Billy Knight was trying to build primarily through the draft.

Obviously Billy tried signing various veterans to help things out. They didn’t by much. Not until the Bibby trade were we even remotely helped by adding veterans (other than JJ, obviously). Speedy, Lue, AJ, Lo Wright….all either failure or limping toward mediocrity. That leaves what? The growth of the guys you drafted. Again, Bibby was the lone exception this far that was an actual difference between success on some type of level (winning just enough games to make it past the others fighting for the 8th seed) and no success whatsoever.

Now let’s examine the free agent signings so far this year. Um, zip, zilch nada. Meanwhile, two of the guys we drafted aren’t signed to the team, nor are they signed to another. With no free agent signings or trades for veterans, where are we? Depending on two veterans (JJ and Bibby), hoping that another can actually contribute this time (Speedy)….and the growth of those we drafted that actually stay.

No, I don’t agree with improvement by organic growth alone. Never have. But…as it stands right now, there ain’t much else other than what we have now. And not even all of that is there. OH well.

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 7:14 PM | Link to this

ANDO, Well said. I copletely agree.

Woodson has reached his limit. The ONLY reason we had more wins this season is because Joe Johsnon Didn’t get injured with two months left in the season. When Joe went down with that injury, the Hawks were ONLY a few games out of the 8th spot.

Organic Growth?? Fine, sure BUT every player gets better with time and Experience. I will say it was more apparent for Hawks players due to the amount of young players on our roster. So yes, I think you can CLEARLY see the strides that our players have made in their development. Even in Joe, though not as much dut to him already being a great player.

But as you can see all of that “Organic Growth” did not translate into a significantly greater amount of wins. Why?? Because other teams get better too. Look at Orlando. Aside form Rashard Lewis, they practiclally brought the same team to the table that netted them an 8th seed berth into the playoffs only to be swept by the Pistons a year before.

So what changed?? Simple, New Coach, New System, A dedicated GM in Otis Smith and a Supportive owner who belives in his ability to make the right decisions. All they did was add one new coach and one new player. Look at them now. The Legit third team in the Eastern Confrence.

Although they probably paid a little too much for lewis, adding him to their roster was the right decision. Firing their previous coach was the right decision. Even though they don’t have a lot of cap space, they’re stocked FULL of players. Not to mention, if they are able to grab Jason Williams as a backup, I see them going to the Eastern Confrence Finals EASY. Remeber they played without their starting Power Forward for the whole season on the way to those 50 wins.

So in a way if the Hawks were actually BETTER than the 06-07 Season(not taking into account the Joe Johnson Injury) I guess it would be due to organic growth.

It’s CERTAINLY no thanks to Michael Woodson and our deplorable management. Why do you think David Fizdale left?? I read an article where Salim said he would always go to Fizdale’s office to talk with him about how unhappy he was not being able to contribute to the team. Woodson’s Assitant caoches have diagreed with him on a number of his irrational decisions. THAT’S WHY HE LEFT.

In order for a team to grow sometimes you don’t just need different players, but different people pulling the strings as well. Look at how the Dallas Mavericks made it to the NBA Finals after Avery Johnson stepped in for Don Nelson. Or how Detriot took a step backward in signing Flip Saunders after successfuly improving their coaching position year after year(Rick Carlisle and Larry Brown).

Some of you may Still not want to hear this but it’s time to face the facts. Mike Woodson is NOT qualified to be the Head Coach of our Basketball team. From his negative interactions with the players, Fellow coaches, and even Management (GM Billy Knight) it’s easy to see. His inabilty to Manage playing time, get the most out of his players, and make them better. Then you have his atrocious Winning percentage and his playbook that consists of ONE PLAY (Pass the Ball to Joe). Not to mention he sits this play book with that ONE PLAY on top of a coloring book during his timeouts so that it appears that the dendrites in his brain are actually functioning properely in order to give off the illusion that he FOR ONCE actually has something useful to say to his team. But when the final seconds tick off we see that it was all a farce…..the Hawks loose AGAIN.

Then we have the Atlanta Spirit Group which has succusfully managed the thrashers into the depths of hell. Not to mention that the only thing thay are famous for as far as the Atlanta Hawks are concerned is ARGUING weather or not we should have signed the best player to put on a Hawks Jersey since Dominique Wilkins (Sheed Doesn’t Count). Their constant bickering has put this francise in a poor financial state. It’s gotten to the point where they REFUSE to hire the BEST QUALIFIED people for extremly imporant positions in order to spend the LOYAL HAWKS FANS’ money suing each other in court. Add that to their penny pinching ways and what do you get???

AN ORGANIZATION IN WHICH VIRTUALLY EVERY MANAGENMET POSITION HAS A PERSON IN POWER THAT IS NOT QUALIFIED TO BE THERE.

MannyT, Save your ticket money. These are not the Hawks we paid for. This is not the Oganization in which we paid money to get behiend. No, These are FRAUDS.

By doc

July 14, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

salem thanks for the advice, it is i who has not put his money out there, manny t is in this year.

By kirknga

July 14, 2008 7:32 PM | Link to this

MannyT fair point about the diversity of ownership. I believe McDavid would have been worse based on his dealership rep.

Thanks for the perspective, not trying to pull anyone into a numbers game. s I stated with *ray8 I’m just trying to get at the rationale behind the tenants of the majority opinion here is all.

Per your June 30th link, I do remember that post and thinking that there is inherent tension between those two points for those who believe that ASG has made all the wrong moves and are impatient for resolution.

On one hand we have the the valuation of Smith as something less than a max player(not universally shared) but worth more than $45 million, exciting and athletic, yet somewhat skilled-challenged(to what degree is debatable). On the other we have the pragmatic concept that Smith is an asset and as such can be used in more than one way to improve the team.

Recognition and reconciliation of this tension has been a challenge to some, though not all I must say.

ray

I believe our major remaining basketball difference is, as I take all of your comments as a whole, ASG is not entitled to the benefit of the doubt? Is that a fair reading?

I don’t blame ASG for the deliberate pace of the federal court system, especially in civil matters. From a legal standpoint, it is an interesting case.

Smith does need leadership, no surprise or shock at his age. Again, I think we’ve all overlooked dad and what possible influence he may be exerting on the process.

I have said I have no issue with Smith returning. I fudged a little, but I do find him to be an exciting player. He also is a heartbreaker with his decision making, shot selection, and ball handling, in my opinion.

For that reason, I’m excited by the information Sekou provided us today. There are continences and all sorts of machinations that could come to fruition! I would challenge people that this is an answer to what many have been asking. What is ASG doing?

The conventional wisdom has been to answer that with “nothing”. Now we see that is not the case, they are doing things, but I dare say it is Josh’s call now as to how thing will resolve. If they do move on, I would suggest that who they bring in and the resulting impact upon the team will be a powerful signal to the rest of the team.

Perhaps the Hawks are following the Braves model and being very discreet but in possession of a solid plan.

People have mentioned the name of Kwame Brown. Curiously little discussion about his rumored lackadaisical attitude would do the Hawks chemistry. I like Wright, but also like Scott Pollard as well.

I think one of the biggest mistakes Babcock made was letting Wilkens talk him into waiving Pollard and Shammond Williams.

Hopefully, for the sake of many on this blog, I hope we have some movement on the Smith/Childress fronts. I really wish we had some rumors to bite into about sign and trade/trade possibilities.

By ray

July 14, 2008 7:41 PM | Link to this

Kirk, did you notice the article Sekou put up about talking to Joe Johnson? I notice that it is titled to the effect of the team captain saying that signing the two Joshes is crucial.

Odd that in the article, Joe Johnson asks what is up with the two players but says nothing about signing them in particular. In fact, his words reflect that he is merely concerned that whatever guys are on the roster are ready to go to work. I think he would be inclined to agree with your assessment that getting better is not necessarily tied to the exact names of one or two players. But how careful he was to step around the subject while still addressing it….

Of course, Johnson knows all too well the nuances of free agency, amongst other things. The youngsters who have never played for another NBA team have yet to truly learn just how much of a business this really is. Recall how Childress said as summer began that the key to winning was about “just keeping us all together.” Such is not always the case, and he may find that out this very summer.

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 7:53 PM | Link to this

Ray, As far as Smoove needing guidance, Maybe. He has a GREAT work ethic though. I’ve herd that he put in SEROIUS hours inthe gym this off-season. We know that he’s looked for help before in the form of Calvin Murphy and Hakeem Olajuwon. He does need to work on his decision making (Coaching Guidence……but we don’t have a real coach).

In-game Leadership though. YES he does sometimes. Like when he started to get too hype in a game and Horford reminded him that the game was not over yet. That’s fine too but I really don’t see that as too big of a problem. I mean look at Rasheed. Nobody can calm him down and he hasn’t changed over his career. Yet Every team he has been on is always amongst the top teams in the leauge. so Yes and NO…..though that isn’t really a difinitive answer but I think you get the jist of what im tring to say……hopefully lol.

As far as his agents go, I think that’s a whole seperate ball game. If you look back at that Elton Brand article I posted on the last blog. Corey Magette stated that Brand told him that he felt disrespeced by the Clippers management. Their attitude was “we can take you or leave you, either way we’re good.” Magatte stated that as the tipping point for Brands decision. He DID at first have evey intention of staying. Magette too along with the addition of Davis, but it seems that was not in the Clippers plans.

As it stands now. From the outside looking in, it looks like the Hawks are headed down the same path as the Clipers.

By Sautee

July 14, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this

Ray and Kirk

Good to see everyone playing nice. Enmity is ugly, and I regret taking part in it.

A couple of points on this current discussion:

First, for me, is the acknowledgement that the ASG has been overall, fairly lame in their dealings over their entire 4 year history. I’m certain that much of this has a financial bottomline, but still, they have NOT been a great example of a stable, forward thinking front office. I guess I’m saying they did it the old fashioned way - they earned Manny’s scorn.

I bring this up because Kirk, you seem still puzzled by that scorn, at least from your point of view. I posted a few days ago the Ken that I still had a healthy skepticism about both ASG and Woody. There’s a reason that it’s a healthy skepticism, and that’s because unfortunately they have fed mine the way Kirk was feeding some animal on here. ;-)

(And Kirk, this doesn’t touch on your argument of whether or not their playing this particular issue correctly. I’m not trying to go back there - this is taking a large view)

The second point is one that Sekou brought up, and Ray this is for you and that is this:

We have this 22 year old with what most everybody agrees is a unique skill set (whether you’d like to keep him or not). In a sign and trade, we’re not likely to get “value for value”.

So unless he’s actually making the team WORSE (not my view) or he’s refusing to play for Woody (not likely), then we are better off signing him then looking for a S&T.

Of course we get back to “at what price” I still say somewhere South of 5/60 is about right, but what would I know?

By SalimFan

July 14, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

*Doc sorry lol.

By terrell barron

July 14, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this

Sekou, I’m not saying your’re wrong, but even if Josh did’nt want to play for Woody, do you really think he’d tell the beat writer? Same goes for Woody. Would he come out and say he does’nt want Josh Smith on this team next year? I think not. Only Woody and Josh Smith themselves know what’s really going on. We shall see. And I still say NO to Lorenzen REDENBACHER. LOL!!! How about Elson, Chris Anderson, Brian Skinner, David Harrison, or even Kwame or Randolph Morris. Anybody but LR.

By cp

July 14, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this

Great post SalimFan

By ray

July 14, 2008 8:13 PM | Link to this

Kirk, I don’t even really know if we differ much even there. Perhaps I am less inclined to say that the ASG deserves the benefit of the doubt than are you, but that’s a small thing. I reserve judgment on their capability. Because of the split, do they have enough money to get anything done? There are so many of them still. Which ones are the real decision-makers? It would just about have to be Gearon Jr, Sr, and Levenson. If there’s one fracture, there can be more fractures. Since the court proceedings aren’t finished, there is still a fair amount of uncertainty.

I feel like Billy Knight was a mistake. Why? Long story, but I’ll try to make it short. He did indeed bring a lot of talent here. Isaiah Thomas did the same in New York. You see where it got them. Billy wanted to make JJ a point guard. Bad idea, for a number of reasons (some that I didn’t recognize at the time, too). He was quoted as saying that he laughed at the idea of people saying we needed a point guard. I think the guy was delusional, myself. He wanted a long, athletic running team. But….he matched them up with a coach who doesn’t play that style. Never has. Still doesn’t. He then tried to fire the coach, seeing that things weren’t working out. We don’t know when he startted trying to fire him, but we know that the ASG wouldn’t let it happen? Why? That’s not a good thing on the ASG’s part, but again, we don’t know the real reasons behind it.

Mike Gearon Jr has repeatedly stated his fondness for Woody. That doesn’t sit well with me. I think that they should have tried harder earlier to keep Josh while he was still clearly wanting to be here. That didn’t sit well with me, but I have to admit that there are many more factors at work there, some of which we surely are not privy to. They hired Rick Sund, but he’s historically no better in the draft than Billy and it appears that he’s more of a consultant than anything else. They fired their team president and now another team official. Gearon says they wanted to get more involved than before. But what is he actually doing?

To be honest, I question both their financial ability and their basketball business savvy. Results may indeed show that the Smith situation was played right. Or it might be revealed that we just somehow fell into a situation right. I still maintain that Brand saved us a heap of trouble. If the market was suddenly set by “versatile swingmen are all the rage” instead of “gotta have a pure power forward” then who knows how this would have gone. And I am at the point where I just don’t care. As long as we get better somehow and continue to (yes, I know…I’m echoing you on that one…funny, ain’t it?) do so.

I just don’t know if the ASG has what it takes to do so. They don’t even own the franchise free and clear right now. The Smith situation notwithstanding, what solid evidence is there to hang a hat on that shows me we’re going in the right direction…or that we can actually get there? I say this grasping at straws and not trying to refute an argument that is opposite to my own. I don’t want the ASG to be the bad guys. I don’t feel that they are bad guys. But I do feel that they are overwhelmed and overmatched. And from this, contempt often flows….

I see it as a difference in the way one feels about things. And I am completely open to hearing how and why you feel the ASG is on top of things.

By drmaryb

July 14, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this

NO Joshe’s? No Spirit! It’s just that simple.

By Ben

July 14, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

HEY SEKOU CAN WE GET SOME NAMES PLEASE? STOP GIVING US EMPTY BLOGS. FIND OUT WHO WE ARE TRADING FOR?

THANKS

By honest_abe

July 14, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this

aj: right on the money. solo’s lost his freakin mind. i mean i’d somewhat understand if his roster spot is guaranteed. but he hasn’t shown me a damn thing in his career other than his glaring need to eat some more burgers. bah drop his skinny, ineffective butt. i saw some kids on that summer league roster that were very effective in college. give me wayne simien or justin williams over solo anyday.

By Samuel

July 14, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this

Sorry Blog,

I’ve been out of pocket and I wont take time to read all the post so I probably will repeat a bunch of stuff.

Cuz,

You made it The Motherland, although I don’t really call Tunica, Mississippi anymore. More like Vegas but close enough. I remember when that place was litterally the poorest county in the nation.

Interesting article on Woody and Acie. It really doesn’t change my opinion of Woody at all. Only reaffirms my opinion that he is the right man for the job. Same thing with Acie. He’s a stand up guy who don’t make excuses. He will be a good player in this league when he inproves his shooting.

The crickets don’t bother me at all and I have never bought into that Smith vs Woody hype. Woody has practically raised Josh so naturally they’ll have spats but they are probably a lot closer than people think. Me and pops have definately had our rounds but end the end, it made me a better man.

By ray

July 14, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this

Abe! Good to see ya! I agree. Simien and Williams are more “substantial” than Jones. Don’t know why he’s not playing. Oh well.

Sautee, I hear you. But when you’re talking about a strict definition of value for value, then you’re essentially trading for the same type of player, and what would be the purpose in that, unless we’re talking getting rid of a contract for the sake of cap space? At the same time, value for value is not impossible if going by a different definition. Right now, I don’t think it’s possible to trade Josh for anyone and get the same production out of them. He’s just too unique. The problem is that all of this “value” is on the surface.

I can’t think of any sign and trade deals right now that I think could actually happen that give us fair value in return for Josh Smith. But then, is my idea of value to the team the best idea? Better yet, I have no idea what trades are possible. Furthermore, true value can’t be determined right away, and ends up being hindsight observation. For instance, we can go back to the Joe Johnson deal. I don’t care what anybody says: an existing player with talent (but a bad fit) and two first round draft picks are what we gave up for JJ. Sure, we see who those draft picks turned out to be now (Rondo and Lopez), and we also see that Diaw has had some issues even in Phoenix. Diaw was the only somewhat known quantity, though. Let’s say that the second draft pick we owed Phoenix actually ended up being last year’s 4th pick in the draft instead of the third. Add that to either Rondo, or say that somebody else was picked instead of Rondo because the pick landed higher (or for some other reason a better player was chosen), and now you have changed the dynamics completely. Suddenly the price is much steeper. But then, that’s saying that the end results justify the means.

Nothing has changed about the original deal. Two first round picks and a player with some skill was the price. But the end result value of that price could not be determined until later. Hindsight makes us look pretty good. Add to that the idea that we have no idea what blunder Billy would’ve done with one of those 1st rounders anyway….but I digress.

If we see a sign and trade with Josh Smith, I expect to see us take a step back, because most likely the value will not be initially good enough to have an immediate impact. You take away one important element of a growing team (especially a young one) and you’re going to lose some ground. I don’t want to see this happen, nor do I advocate it (again, unless it makes us better…either immediately or shortly down the road), but it most certainly can happen.

Imagine if we did a sign and trade with the Clippers and got Al Thornton and a 1st round pick. That won’t happen, but indulge me for a moment. Does Thornton make us better or worse than if we had Smith instead? I’m not betting on better. But let’s say that the ping pong balls bounce just right, and the pick isn’t lottery protected (yeah right, dream on). We end up with a top 5 pick in a very deep draft, and our GM ends up selecting a center (but not like the ones he’s picked in the past) that becomes our starter for the next 10 years. Now the trade doesn’t look so bad. Was that an outlandish analogy? Absolutely. Have stranger things happened? Yep. Will it happen to us? No clue, and not betting on any such thing. Then again, Murphy’s Law didn’t get us last year, either….we have Horford and Law to prove it.

By ray

July 14, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this

Again, Sautee, I don’t see a good “on the surface* trade for Smith. If only we knew what has been offered. Sign and trade deals always intrigue me greatly. As much as I’d rather see Smith here, there’s always the possibility that things exist that will hinder that. Who knows….

SalimFan, I don’t question Josh’s work ethic. He needs guidance like any young player. But look at the difference between guys like him and Horford. Horford was more mature, and thrust into a much more pressure-filled role than Josh was in his first year or two. Horford is more of a leader, and more mature. That’s not saying anything bad about Josh, but I don’t see him as a leader. And that’s not necessarily a bad thing, either. Not everybody can be a leader. Take Carmelo Anthony. I don’t see him as a leader, I don’t care what kind of stats he puts up. He’s just not it, and may never be one, either. I damn sure wouldn’t turn away 25 and 8 a night though, would you? Maybe Josh will change as he matures, and become more of a leader. I don’t know.

Gotta give him credit though. He’s kept his nose clean off the court. I think a lot of people forget that. As far as we’ve seen, dude hasn’t even gotten so much as a parking ticket.

And trust me. The guidance thing is something I attribute to the head coach. No doubts about that, but others in the organization need to be involved. Sund needs to fix that kind of stuff.

By Ken Strickland

July 14, 2008 10:50 PM | Link to this

I know I’ve been all over the place concerning the Joshes recently, but that’s the nature of speculation. After reading your comments and Sekou’s report, it now seems rather clear to me what our rubberband ownership might be up to. I think their real RFA target is Chills much more than Smoove, and here’s why.

(1)Horford’s outstanding rookie performance just might have convinced wonership he’s a better PF option than Smoove, especially financially. Having made the decision to move Smoove might explain why they didn’t try to resign him last yr, and why they offered him a rather lowball contract. That might explain their wait for the market to play out with him, and why they’re willing to match any offer, despite their finances.

(2)Suppose they’re actually waiting for an offer so they can initiate a sign and trade with a selected team that can offer a servicable big and maybe a shooter. That might also explain why we aren’t active in the FA market. We could possibly fill those needs through a sign and trade rather than FA, which could prove far less costly.

For me, this explains ownerships inactivity in persuing Smoove and any FA’s. They can’t dispose of Smoove and determine what FA’s are needed until another team offers him a contract. Then, and only then, after seeing what they get in a sign and trade, can they resign Chills and consider signing any FA’s. Also, resigning Chills before making a serious run at Smoove might have alerted interested teams of their willingness to move Smoove, thus lowering his market value. Remember, announcing your intentions to match any offer, and pretending to want him at any cost, encourages bigger offers. The bigger the offer, the bigger the potential compensation in a sign and trade.

By terrell barron

July 14, 2008 10:51 PM | Link to this

Ray, Thornton is a SF. And we’ still would’nt have a center. Your’re right. That would set uis back at least a couple of years, but with Acie, JJ, Thornton, Horford, and a draft pick(center), we’d have a bright future. Not to mention Bibby, Marvin and Zaza’s contracts will be coming off.

By terrell barron

July 14, 2008 10:52 PM | Link to this

Ray, Thornton is a SF.(what about Marv)? lol! And we’ still would’nt have a center. Your’re right. That would set uis back at least a couple of years, but with Acie, JJ, Thornton, Horford, and a draft pick(center), we’d have a bright future. Not to mention Bibby, Marvin and Zaza’s contracts will be coming off.

By ray

July 14, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this

terrell, point taken…but I see Thornton as an upgrade over Marvin. I’m sure somebody will flame me for that one, but Thornton really came on last year when they let him play. Dude is a lot more aggressive, tough to guard going to the hole, and will probably show a more expanded range than Marvin has. And he’ll play better defense. But then, Marvin might come back and prove me all kinds of wrong. So could Woody. I hope for better, but know better than to hold my breath….

Yeah, we still wouldn’t have a center, but we could trade for another power forward to hold down the spot with Horford. Besides, Smoove is a SF….he just is capable of playing the 4 when needed. He’s played it for two years straight now…

By darrell starks

July 14, 2008 11:55 PM | Link to this

SEKOU WHATS UP WE AS FANS HAVE TO STOP SETTLING FOR LESS I no why they have not sign free agent or even sign there own player let keep it real they are broke and i hate to get to personal but thats the truth so fans do not get your hopes so high because they are subject FOR FAILURE AND TO LET US DOWN AS FANS. GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

By MannyT

July 15, 2008 12:09 AM | Link to this

Personally, I’d have gone with Billy Joel’s—We Didn’t Start the Fire.

ASG issues are not only basketball. From the times I have attended hockey games, the Thrasher crowds are more into the regular season games than the Hawks fans.

I think the pro sports pricing in Atlanta is very reasonable compared to other cities. But we are really comparing a ticket in Atlanta to one in Portland. I’m not buying tickets to their games.

Within the past 12 months, the ASG has lost/fired/let go a hockey coach, a basketball GM, a basketball assistant coach, a CFO, a CMO, a president. The basketball GM was the only one replaced in a timely manner.

Perception matters.

PAIN

By doc

July 15, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this

manny t

sounds like the BASG singing its most recent and popular refrain:

I AINT BROKE; I’M JUST NOT LIQUID!

altogether now …..

a little louder now …..

one more time now …..

i think we got the message now ……

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 12:25 AM | Link to this

CP, Thanks

Ray, I agree Smith is not a leader. If anything he’s JUST LIKE JOE JOHNSON in the fact that he leads by example. Horford is defenetly a lot more fundamentally skilled than Smith. Smith is very raw due to the fact that he did not go to College.

People say the NBA is not the place to learn the fundamentals. I say that’s BS. No big man stes into the NBA (Aside from Shaq……and Horford) and just owns the paint. Well maybe they do but they have to learn and develop to become All-Star caliber players. If Smith played for Larry Brown he’s know all the little nuances of tha game right now.

Woodson was a good starter coach for smith just to get his feet wet and learn the game SLOWLY, but I think the teams outgrown their teacher. It’s time to move up a grade but the Principal(The ASG) insits on keeping him.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this

Ooohh I meant no big man Steps……

Also Ray I agree, You couldn’t pay me to turn down 25 and 8.

Sund where you at buddy????? You’ve got work to do!!!!

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 1:06 AM | Link to this

Manny, I feel your PAIN….

Sing it again Doc…lol

By fudd21

July 15, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

Ray & Terrell I personally don’t think that trade would set us back years. Thornton is a beast and right now (as Ray stated)he’s more aggressive, tougher going to the hole, a better defender and probably has better range than Marvin. I think it would give us a legitimate 3 that right now we don’t have. Thornton will average 20 right now and take pressure off JJ. Even though I still say Marvin will also, just probably not next year (go ahead and laugh Ray).

Ken I agree with your comment that there hasn’t been any real movement because ASG eventually would like to do a S & T that could hopefully net a big and a shooter.

By SSI Fan

July 15, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

I don’t know why anyone believes anything the ASG says. What else would they say about matching the offers for Josh and Josh but that they intended to match any offer? It would not be smart to say they were not going to match an offer. I hope they at least consider all the options.

By Astro Joe

July 15, 2008 11:42 AM | Link to this

You know, that Bibby trade last February is looking more and more like a minor miracle for this franchise. Think of the incredible inertia that plagues the decision-making process. This organization moves as quickly as government cheese through the digestive track. It took weeks to decide to keep Woody. Fizdale and Ellis left a while ago, still no new assistants. Some may suggest that we’re in our second summer of trying to re-sign Smith. And some way, some how, we were able to make a move and acquire Bibby. And considering that he was still in the midst of recovering from his wrist injury, you’d have to say that we weren’t late in making that trade, but actually got it done on time.

That’s probably the one and only thing this franchise has done in a timely manner, although I am certain that someone will suggest that it took 3 years to acquire a bondafide starting PG, so maybe that is actually another tick-mark in the inertia category.

1-2-3 WAIT!

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

The Summer League could either propel Solomon into the 8 man rotation, or put him at the very end of the bench. I think he should be there, but what if he goes to Utah and STINKS IT UP? He only gets about 8 min. a game to begin with. The only thing I can come up with, is that he does’nt feel CONFIDENT enough, that he’ll dominate in Utah. If he did, he’ll be there. Sounds AGENT RELATED to me. And Sekou, have you actually seen Craig (IN PERSON) at the Hawks facilities, or anywhere for that matter, playing basketball?

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Come on Ray. Horford played 4 years of College ball. Do you not think that had anything to with him being a bit more mature than Josh? Add that to the fact that Josh was drafted to a team in transition. Horford came to a team that consisted of vets(AJ,Lue,Lorenzen,JJ,Craig), and a 4yr coach, opposed to Rookie coach, like Josh. And the Joshes and Marvin had a few years under their belts also. Horford is a BEAST, dont get me wrong, but they came into totally different situations.

By Ken Strickland

July 15, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

HONEST ABE-I think Solo is making a wise decision by not participating in the summer league. Nobody makes a roster by playing in this league no matter how well they perform. The best you can hope for is an invitation to someones training camp, and Solo already has that. Why risk getting injuried to prove nothing. If he tears up the summer league, and falls short during training camp, he doesn’t make the team. If he doesn’t participate in the summer league, and does well during training camp, he makes the team.

When you weigh the risk vs the reward, it makes no more sense for him to participate than it would Horford. I think most of us, except Woodson, know he’s shown enough to know he could be a valuable asset, especially on DEF, if given sufficient opportunity and mins. He’s certainly shown he’s not afraid to mix it up and go after shots and rebounds. I really liked what he did during his very limited playoff opportunity.

Players like Solo, Salim and Acie can accomplish a lot if given an opportunity, sufficient mins, and a solid vote of confidence by their HC and teammates. As a HC, you emphasize and reward a young players successes, and try to downplay and/or minimize his failures. You certainly don’t downplay and/or take their successes for granted, while emphasizing and punishing them severely for any and all failures. That’s that negative minded, beat them down until they get it right, Bobby Knight influence we’re seeing in Woodson. Even Larry Brown embraces that approach, although to a much lessor degree.

I remember a young team that had a HC that was confrontational, and he alienated some of his key players. They never could get over the playoff hump with him at the controls. Management finally decided to fire Doug Collins and hire Phil Jackson, and the rest is history. It wasn’t just the talent on the team that made the difference, but the talent, understanding and managerial ability of Phil Jackson and his staff. That’s where we’re falling way short. A simple adjustment like replacing Woodson and his limited approach with someone like LDrew, who might open the team up and broaden the its approach, could launch this team forward in a big way.

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

And he played PF quite well Ray, if you ask me. Smoove is 6’9 235, with a below avg jump shot, and a knack for blocking shots. Why is he a SF? Solomon Jones is 6’10 230. I dont hear anyone calling him a SF. People that think Josh might be gone are making up reasons to make themselves feel better. Saying he’s a SF, and stuff like that. I’m guilty myself. Let me ask you this: If he’s a SF, who would you rather have at the 3? Smoove or Marvin? Why dont we just pick up a decent center, move Horford to the 4, Josh to the 3, and Marvin off the bench as the 7th man? Or leave Horford at the 5, trade Marvin for a BIG BODIED PF, and move Smoove to the 3? Simple. lol!

By HHoops

July 15, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

My Opinion

Ken Strickland, I think you are right. We, the Hawks fans, do not know the everyday work habits, attitude, willingness to do what is asked of you, etc. of J. Smith. There comes a time when you work with someone everyday that you have to weigh their perceived worth to their real worth to you.

J. Smith has a tremendous amount of God Given Talent, there is no doubt, but does he use it like his coaches want him to?

J. Smith is a “tweener forward”. If we play him @ the 4, then Horford has to play 5. If we play him @ 3, then Zaza has to play 5. There are weakness’ either way and strengths as well. I like the versatility, but the question is, can you use him in a trade to make your team much better? I think, Yes! If the Hawks sign both Joshes and do nothing else, they cannot make the FINALS and may struggle to make the playoffs. Remember we were 37-45 with that lineup this past season!

ASG seems to be very passive when it comes to making moves. They know what their real budget is. But remember they did go get JJ and that trade really gave the Hawks a chance to improve. Is it time for another big trade? Yes it is! We can use J. Smith to make the next Big Trade.

I don’t have any sure fire answers, but here are a couple of possibilities:

1. Sign J. Smith and then trade him for Biedrins and a #1 pick. Will the Warriors go for this? We need to find out. I predict that J. Smith will sign for more money than Biedrins will, which could get us the #1 pick. I like getting two players for one for the same money. I need some help here Manny T, but I would sign him first and then let the Warriors sign Biedrins before I made the trade. I think the Hawks would get more for J. Smith that way. Also, sign J. Childress for the MLE. He is a quality player that has great versality and is a total team player. That’s why the players and the coaches seem to love him!

This gives us a real starting 5 player and moves Horford to 4. Maybe this gets Posey’s attention and he might talk to the Hawks about coming here. Posey saw first hand how competitive the Hawks can be in the play offs. We have a bi-annual exception I think.

1. Sign J. Smith and trade him for Rasheed and a #1 pick. Rasheed has an expiring contract. That really helps the Hawks next summer with Bibby, Zaza, and Solomon’s contract coming off the books. Posey still might be interested. Sign J. Childress for the MLE.

I think it is funny how we bloggers have all the answers to the problems of the Hawks, but few of us know anything about the day to day operations of running a professional sports team. I really get amused @ our expert coaching knowledge. We seem to have all the answers, but we don’t get paid a dime for what we think we know! FANS must stand for Fools Answering Nothing Sensible.

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

Rodney Stuckey aggravated a toe injury against the Clippers, in Summer League play. Reason #1, why Big Al should’nt be there. Those toes can hurt for years. lol!

By Melvin

July 15, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Analysis of the Hawks RMR roster on Hoopsworld.

Roster Outlook: The young player everyone would have like to have seen the most for Atlanta is Al Horford, but he will only be practicing with the Hawks’ summer squad – not playing. The Hawks are pretty loaded at the point guard position with Acie Law and Speedy Claxton. Dominique Kirk is Acie’s former running mate from A&M, giving him a familiar target. Jeremy Richardson was a late addition to the Hawks and has hung around due to his ability to shoot the ball. Luke Jackson and Wayne Simien have been in and out of the NBA since leaving college, where they were both fairly dominant. Brian Randle never lived up to expectations at the collegiate level due to injuries, but is an impressive athlete who we’ve rarely seen at 100%. Jamaal Sampson and Justin Williams will be focused mainly on the defensive end, as they are both limited offensively. Othella Hunter will show some impressive flashes, but consistency has always been a problem of his. Demetric Bennett was one of the best guards in the Sun Belt conference this past year along with Courtney Lee (Orlando’s first round pick). Atlanta’s roster may not have their premiere young talent, but they do have some solid players who could end up on their roster next year.

We’ll see how many of these end up on the Hawks roster b/c I’m sure the BASG is looking for bargain players…

Hawks sign 3 undrafted players to their roster = PAIN….

By Melvin

July 15, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Analysis of the Hawks RMR roster on Hoopsworld.

Roster Outlook: The young player everyone would have like to have seen the most for Atlanta is Al Horford, but he will only be practicing with the Hawks’ summer squad – not playing. The Hawks are pretty loaded at the point guard position with Acie Law and Speedy Claxton. Dominique Kirk is Acie’s former running mate from A&M, giving him a familiar target. Jeremy Richardson was a late addition to the Hawks and has hung around due to his ability to shoot the ball. Luke Jackson and Wayne Simien have been in and out of the NBA since leaving college, where they were both fairly dominant. Brian Randle never lived up to expectations at the collegiate level due to injuries, but is an impressive athlete who we’ve rarely seen at 100%. Jamaal Sampson and Justin Williams will be focused mainly on the defensive end, as they are both limited offensively. Othella Hunter will show some impressive flashes, but consistency has always been a problem of his. Demetric Bennett was one of the best guards in the Sun Belt conference this past year along with Courtney Lee (Orlando’s first round pick). Atlanta’s roster may not have their premiere young talent, but they do have some solid players who could end up on their roster next year.

We’ll see how many of these guys end up on the Hawks roster b/c I’m sure the BASG is looking for bargain players…

Hawks sign 3 undrafted players to their roster = PAIN….

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

O.K. Ken, then why is Acie going? He already has a spot on the roster.

By fudd21

July 15, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

HHoops I really don’t think GS would do that deal. Biedrins is their only big and J Smith is very similiar to Wright and Randolph. I know Nellie likes small ball but they would be tiny without Biedrins.

Several teams including Boston has already offered Posey the MLE (about 5.6 mil per). I can’t really see him turning down that to accept the bi-annual (about 2 mil per) to play on a non-contending team. However, we have seen crazier things happen so heres to wishful thinking.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

Honest_Abe, I Agree. We need a coach who knows how to manage and develop young players. We currently do not hace a patient and understanding coach.

TB, Gotta protect dem toes lol.

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

Hey guys, IF SPEEDY’S HEALTHY, would Woody dare play him, more than he plays Acie next year? I hope not, but from past experience, I could see it happening. He played freakin AJ and TLue before he played Acie, so why not Bibby and Craig? Thoughts? Hey Ken, maybe this is why Acie went to Utah. To SHOW and PROVE.

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

Hey guys, IF SPEEDY’S HEALTHY, would Woody dare play him, more than he plays Acie next year? I hope not, but from past experience, I could see it happening. He played freakin AJ and TLue before he played Acie, so why not Bibby and Craig? Thoughts? Hey Ken, maybe this is why Acie went to Utah. To SHOW and PROVE. The same reason why Solo shoulda went.

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

Ken, is Horford ready to guard the PF’s of the league? He might be the PF of the future, but right now? I’m not so sure. Can you say FOUL TROUBLE. I like him at the 5, for now. Especially if we could get an Okafur type player to play PF.

By ray

July 15, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

fudd21, I like Thornton’s game a great deal. The only problem is that this guy is clearly a 3, and acquiring him doesn’t change what we’re already doing: running a one PF, two SF frontcourt. That needs to stop. There’s nothing wrong with using that lineup as it serves you, to create mismatches. But we don’t do that…because it IS our lineup, period. I’m not laughing about Marvin averaging 20 a game. It’s not funny anymore.

terrell, well gosh, why don’t we just get a center and move Horford to the 4? I mean, good centers are just lying around everywhere and available for next to nothing!

Yes, I know Smoove played the 4 pretty good. Like I was saying to Kirk, I see him as a tweener forward who doesn’t fit either prototype forward position by definition. In a pinch, I’d rather have him as a 3. Reason being, Horford is a 4 and needs the kind of help down low that either a true 5 or true 4 can provide. Josh is not a post player, which lends toward the idea that he is not really a 4. He’s just able to play it. HE’S JUST NOT A POST PLAYER. We have ONE post player in our current starting lineup (assuming that Josh is a Hawk). Josh has done well, having been thrust into this role, but it has got to stop. That is exactly why these western teams, who love his skill set, are hesitant to offer him a contract. They don’t want to pay a guy that much money if they don’t think he can guard the big power forwards all season long. I mean, Nowitzki, Duncan, Gasol, Stoudamire, Jefferson…every night?? That’s exactly what he would be asked to do if he is signed in lieu of a prototype PF. Not a good idea, if you ask me. It’s different in the East. But even that is changing.

As for Solomon vs. Josh, that’s a wash. Solomon is not mobile enough to be a 3. He’s a post player, he just doesn’t have the strength he needs to be more effective. Josh does not body up to guys like Horford and other post players do. It’s not natural for him.

And the maturity factor: yes, Horford came from three years of college and was more mature than Josh coming into the league. The point is that after 4 years in the league for Josh….Horford is still the more mature of the two. And that has NOTHING to do with the veterans we had. I’ll give Lue credit for his locker room contributions and a few big shots in a couple of games, but other than that….AJ had blown his wad back in Dallas. He’s a career backup who had already done his best work by far. Wright is/was tough, but you’re talking about a guy who’s claim to fame last year was his ability to average more fouls than rebounds or points. Claxton? 31 games in two or three years says it all….

Your ideas about moving the lineup around are great. You’ve said them before. So has the rest of the blog. If only somebody would listen….

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

Fudd, GS signed Rony Turiaf to an offer sheet. Maybe they’ll consider it if LA does’nt match? Idk?

By doc

July 15, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

if speedy is healthy and acie looks ready to carry the load does that make bibby and his salary expendable for other “properties”?

By Ken Strickland

July 15, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

TERRELL BARRON-it’s Acie’s choice, plain and simple. He’s taking a risk just like Solo would be taking, but Solo’s risk would be much greater. It’s also the nature of the beast, and Acie has that kind of confidence and attitude. His current attitude is the one he started training camp and the season with, before injuries and Woodson’s indifference to him took affect. Solomon is a 2nd rd pick that isn’t projected as a potential starter, and didn’t have the stallar college career that Acie had. Therefore, he has far less room for taking risks, especially before training camp.

At this point and with his resume so far, an injury to Solo could get him cut and end his chances to make a roster. An injury to Acie won’t get the same results, for obvious reasons.

By fudd21

July 15, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

Ray in that scenario someone (Marvin or Thornton) would be going to the bench. I would never dream of having a lineup that featured Marvin at the 4. Everytime Woody went to that lineup I would cross my fingers hoping we got a defensive rebound, especially with Z out the too.

But if we were to do that (I doubt we would) we could play Z at the 5. Yes, I know many throw trash on ZaZa but if paired with Horford I think he would be OK. They both can play both the high and low post and with Al on the court Z wouldn’t have to do the dirty work.

Terrell I have wondered that myself about Horford guarding the better 4’s in the league. I still have images in my head of Drew Gooden lighting him up in the first quarter where it appeared Al was hesitant to get up on him for fear of Drew going by. Therefore giving up uncontested 12 footers.

By kirknga

July 15, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

ray Per your 7:41 post, yes I did read that article, but what was the new news? We were told, or it was implied at least, that JJ was like many here…impatient.

Would he take 5/60 now? See I’m not so sure he would take that from the Hawks right now. I think anything less than the max and he’s still going to be out on the market. But that would bring us to the discussion about is he worth the max, and then he would come in for some blame, and well, the conventional wisdom here holds Smith blameless.

I have no large issue with what JJ said. (I can’t image that we would see something like that from the Braves. Would Smoltz or Chipper make such a comment when they knew the team wanted to sign and player and was in the middle of the process? Just a thought)

ASG has made their intentions known, in fact they haven’t done anything else which leads me to believe that they do want to keep both players and are prepared to keep room to match a large offer.

Please let us truly distinguish what ASG can control, their offer, and what they cannot, Smith signing a contract.

Point taken about the FA’s signings tending toward the mediocre and, I would say the horrible(Speedy).But they did do something. They could have done nothing.

Sautee

I can’t help but ask, if he is so “unique”, why doesn’t he have an offer? He is an option for all but the Hawks where he is a priority.

As I discussed with ray, I think it is point of emphasis. I do not believe we are in the middle of a process and why ASG would engender skeptisism for their participation in the process. If they were not in, had they stated or remained silent about their intentions then I could understand the scorn.

But as I pointed out yesterday and have commented on before, there are other RFA unsigned by their teams and I don’t assume that these teams are cheap, or incompetent, or lack basketball or business sense.

What this tells me that people here are holding ASG responsible for too much in this matter. It as if they are expected to just wave a magic wand and make this courting and signing process go away, no scratch that, not go away, but go the way that fans not in the business want it to go.

Again, again, again; I am not a Woody fan. I simply take a balanced view, in my opinion, that there was a rational case for his return. I think offering only a 2 year extension tells us that there is skepticism on Sund’s part as well, but people here are reacting as if he was given a 4-5 year extension.

That he took the mini extension is interesting as well.It could be seen as bold and confident, perhaps even signaling to his team that he believes in them enough to agree to a very short leash. Or it could mean that he really is clueless and has no pride.

Over at DOB’s, I am a defender of Terry Pendelton. Many want to fire him, and do it yesterday. But day after day I repost his record, a record that shows results and an effectiveness that cuts against the perception.With Woody, he got the team to the playoffs. Finally. I believe people do not want to acknowledge that and if tey do, they want it to carry very little weight.

Then one points out that the team has improved every year. There is a clear trend line up. Not down, no plateau, but up. So again, results conflicting with perception.

Ray talked about getting “maximum impact, and it is possible that ASG saw enough impact to extend his contract. Horrible coaches tend not to have such a trend line, much less get the team to the playoffs(yes they “backed in”, but they were in the position to do so).

ray

In regards to your 8:13 post. I must ask, has anyone every liked any of our GM’s? I know there were no blogs back then, but didn’t fans react negatively to Kasten? Who here among us did not cheer Babcock’s departure? Ah Biliy Knight. Finally many said.

I can’t help but note the irony. People say things such as, BK “is horrible”, “a mistake”, “he didn’t know what he was doing”, “the roster was whack”. Yet, here many of those same people are wringing their hands and raising their blood pressure all with the anxiety of keep intact the team he put together!

He’s a bum! But, uh, well, we like the core he put together. Interesting.

So a GM who put together a solid core(according to majority opinion here), but had to go.

A coach who took a team from 13 wins to 37 wins and ended a years-long playoff drought. Oh, but wait, he’s not perfect, so he should fall on his sword too.

And what to make of the organization who brought in the GM and coach that gave us these players and results? Well they are horribly incompetent of course!

Signing JJ and Bibby is no defense to the charge that they are cheap and miserly in every way..yes, yes, we know they have stated they want to resign the players we so love, but still!

Yes most of us enjoyed the playoff run, but it was mere illusion. Everything is bad. The future is so very bleak. If only we could get somebody truly competent like the Smith family to purchase the team!

No one is perfect, and I’m afraid many here are leaping over the obvious positives to seek out and embrace the negatives. Yes, the JJ experiment was in hindsight(um, didn’t someone caution against that?), but not an unprecedented or irrational move. If he had picked Paul or Williams, and they developed here as they have with their respective teams, I wonder what they tenor of the comments would be now?

My guess, people would still blame the process on ASG, and still accentuate any negative they could squint their eyes to find.

Meanwhile, the silence from Smith’s camp is deafening!

By honest_abe

July 15, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

ken: seriously. are we talking about the same guy? he has nothing to prove? the hell he doesn’t. he hasn’t done a damn thing since he’s been in the league. now you want an example of a player who has nothing to gain from summer league but still went? kevin durant. now he was a star before he even played his first nba game. after his first year, he didn’t have to go but he still went. i realize solo not going to summer league isn’t going to bring the world to an end. he is just a bench filler. but as a guy with some promise you just kinda hoped he was more of a gym rat then he seems to be.

i really don’t buy that injury crap. if thats the case then players shouldn’t play during the offseason. that was a pretty idiotic statement. bah!

By Astro Joe

July 15, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

Let’s face it, the biggest thing Solomon has to fear is that he would be cut before leaving Utah as opposed to making it to the Hawks pre-season camp in October. I still remember the Sekou article when he was so busy working out that he forgot to actually play basketball during the off-season. WOW! And now, he turns down a formal organized setting to play with 2 legit PGs to do whatever it is that he is doing. Maybe he’s working out with the elite collection of fellow South Florida alum… you know, like Marvin does at UNC? Uh, never mind.

1-2-3 NBDL.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

My thing is that Al is not a scoring FORCE yet. He can get you 20pts from the center position but the PF position is a completly different story. Teams have TONS of schemes to take high scoring PF’s out of the picture. With Al not even being that, I don’t see him playing the position.

Personally, I beleive Josh Smith is more suited to pkay the PF position. He’s post move have gotten better year after year. Let’s not forget that this guy is ONLY 22. When i’s watched him guard FAST PF’s Like Caron Butler for extended minutes, he gets extremely tired. Not to mention that take Josh away from the thing he does best which is block shots. He can’t do that if he spends the madjority of his time AWAY from the paint.

If said this before, We just need to make sure we have the appropriate peices coming off of the bench to compensate for the holes that are in our starting lineup. Because let’s face it, other than Marvin’s SF position there’s not a player out there realistically available to us right now that has more talent to come in and start in order to replace the talent that is currently in our starting lineup (well exept for salim…..I had too lol).

I will give Woodson credit For starting the best talent on the team FOR ONCE…..but that’s about all he get’s any credit for.

Back to the original pont of this post. Horford defenetly has all of the Fundementals down, but I beleive he still needs a few more years to mature into a full blown PF scoring force. His repetiore of moves is not that deep (3 or 4 at most) whereas Josh has a pletheroa of go to moves.

By cp

July 15, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

I seriously doubt that Golden State gives up Biedrens even if they are able to snag Turiaf from the Lakers. The Warriors already have Wright and Randolph as someone else pointed out earlier. I think Randolph is going to be a good player. He has a good handle and can hit the jumper.

Melvin I have been saying that I wouldnt be surprised that a few of the summer league guys make the roster. The problem I see for Solo is that Justin Williams is probably a better version of him. I can see Richardson, West, and Williams making the team.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

Fudd, I personally have always looked at the positives about this team. I love our starting 5. Personally I wouldn’t chage it. Like I said in my previous post, I would just improve the bench significantly.

As far as BK was concerned, I had no problem with him. You have to take into account that he had to deal with the ASG, and was dealt a limited hand. He wasn’t allowed to make the moves that he wanted because of management. He often became a martryr because of an incompotent Head Coach who often refused to play the talant he drafted. Do you really think that he would have signed Speedy claxton if Woodson had played Salim stoudamire and used him effectively??? Not to mention developing his into a better player?? If that were the case would we have burnt our cap on Mike Bibby in Acie had been utilized by Woodson Correctly???

Look at Jemeer Nelson. I think we can all agree the Salim and Acie have a far greater potential than Nelson. The only difference was that the oppourtunity was there for him in Orlando. Not to metion he was given TIME to grow and mature into the player that he is today.

Fudd, I agree with most of what you said but Woodson has to go. There nothing that will change my mind of this opinion either. Actally management needs to take a hike also. Other than that, I love the players on our roster……and Larry Drew…….Fizdale Too lol.

By newkid

July 15, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

doc @ 2:37 p.m. asked about expendability of Bibby given Speedy shows on-the-floor substance and medical soundness during summer league. If so, here’s the scenario I favor. Bibby for Rasheed Wallace on a one-year (rather than one game) rental (saves about $2 M in salary), while Detroit ships Chauncey & Rip out to Houston for McGrady (Detroit has reportedly shown significant interest in McGrady). Detroit frees up time on the floor for the budding Amir Johnson, Stuckey, and Maxiell, and frees itself of a longer-term financial commitment to Billups (T-Mac expires after 09/10 season). Bibby becomes Detroit’s short-term insurance policy for Stuckey. Chauncey and Rip continue the chemistry they’ve established in Detroit to give Houston the short-term backcourt that could, as a complement Yao, take Houston deeper into the playoffs while Yao is still young enough and healthy enough to make a run. In Wallace, Atlanta gets a pivot player who can defend some 5s while reliably stepping out to shoot 3s on offense, allowing Horford to post-up and Smoove to slash. He’s a player with whom Woody is quite familiar, and his presence would allow Woody to run an offense with which they’re both familiar. There’d be more reliance on scoring from the 5 spot, and perhaps a proportional decrease in reliance on scoring from the SF spot.

For our side perhaps a major concern would be the quality of our admixture with Rasheeed added to the crucible. If the chemistry is acceptable and productive on the court and tolerable in the locker, consider signing Rasheed to an extension (maybe 2 years?) after his deal expires - at the end of the 08/09 campaign - at a salary that’ll allow other pieces to be re-signed or added from free agency.

So this season our first 5 would go Acie (or Speedy), JJ, Smoove, Horford, and Rasheed, with bench support from Chills, Marvin, Zaza, Speedy (or Acie), etc. I like this line-up against Boston, the Sixers, and many others in the east.

Thoughts?

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 4:52 PM | Link to this

Newkid, It’s a great deal considering we only give up Bibby but detroit would never go for it. Besides I think Dumars’ little temper tantrum after his 3rd round exit was just to wake his players up and get their attention. Like our situation with Jiosh Smith. It would be REALLY hard for Dumars to get back adequate value for any of the players in his starting five.

And they just let Ben Wallace go without getting anything for him so i’m sure Dumars is ganna play everything safe from now on.

By newkid

July 15, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

While I’m not sure SalimFan, my sense is that Dumars realizes that Detroit has reached its summit with Wallace at the 5 spot, but you could be correct in saying that he’d want more (perhaps much more) than Bibby in return (if he could get it). Given Rasheed’s salary and antics, do you really think he’ll get a more serviceable piece than Bibby if he decides to swap Billups and Rip for McGrady?

By nique

July 15, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

Based on what the other FAs have signed for this offseason, what do you think it will take to sign Josh Smith? Anyone think the Hawks will be willing to spend what it takes?

By Ken Strickland

July 15, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

HONEST ABE-I never said he had nothing to prove. In fact, it’s the complete opposite. He has to prove himself just to make the roster. However, he doesn’t have to prove it in the summer league. All it gets you is a possible invite to training camp, which he automatically has since he’s already on the active roster and under contract. His job, to win or lose, will be determined by what he does during training camp, not the summer league, no matter how dominant his perfomance might be.

This is the last yr of his contract. Why would he risk injury competing in the summer league for something he already has, an automatic invite to training camp. And KDurant was in the 1st yr of his multi yr contract, not the last. The stakes were different. Plus, what are the odds of either ALaw or KDurant getting cut after suffering a aummer league injury? What are the odds of Solo, in the last yr of his rookie contract, not being cut after suffering a summer league injury? If he’s injuried during summer league, his training camp spot would certainly be filled, and his chances of regaining it would certainly be a longshot at best.

ASTRO JOE-can you name one player that’s ever made an NBA roster based on summer league play alone. There have been plenty that have made rosters in spite of poor summer league play. No matter what you do in the summer league, to make an NBA roster, you still have to prove what you can do during training camp. Solo’s smart enough to know that.

By MannyT

July 15, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

doc It looks like the ASG is planning to replace Belkin with Evander Holyfield i.e. local icon in the not broke, not liquid society.

Abe, Ken Solo is playing a 750k game of chicken. He clearly has a spot in camp, but his is one of the few contracts that the Hawks might eat if he gets outplayed. By not going to summer league, he cannot get exposed by a better big man. On the flip side, the extra time that the new guys get to show Larry Drew their skills sets up an easy comparison for October.

HHoops That is one deal that would about make my head spin. For both teams to sign their own free agents then trade them within the first year could be a messy deal. The Base Year Compensation thing kicks in and gets wacky if one team is over the cap (Hawks) and the other team is not (Warriors). Even if they sign for the same money, it will have different effects. Biedrens would not be BYC unless the Warriors are over the cap.

For all the chatter about where you play a guy, isn’t that why you have coaches to exploit matchups? Offensively you put the guys where it is most advantageous. Defensively, you have to be able to guard someone. Josh can guard most positions well enough that it’s not a problem. The challenge is mainly on offense. Who’s going to help shoot with range? Usually it is the SF, but it doesn’t have to be. That was one of the best things about bringing in a Euro big that is comfortable shooting from the outside. With the impact of the dollar versus the Euro-free fallin’ that ain’t likely to happen.

ray The Spurs do ok with one post player on offense. As easy as it would be to insert a coaching joke here, I’ll pretend to be mature as everyone is on such good behavior today. Depending on how news breaks when I get back to blogging tonight, this could be a temporary thing. Time will tell. It leads me to wonder, is it worse to do surveillance on one who is active or does nothing most of the time? I’d be more prone to fall asleep watching someone do nothing almost all the time.

kirknga I was one of the few that was ok with Knight. He had flaws, but was a major upgrade over Babcock…which is easy to document. Nevertheless, there are some that would beat him into the ground. Now they get the opposite –Sun(d) which by early accounts isn’t an upgrade, just different.

newkid,doc Does Speedy’s willingness to try summer league make him any less fragile? Even if he does well, it could be season over by Thanksgiving. I think we have 2 experienced PG with AC for the entire season. That doesn’t mean Bibby stays, but a 2nd vet PG will be here.

As a guy that always wanted a Hawk for a game-Rasheed jersey, I’d love to see him here. Even if he is as testy as ever, it’s entertaining. It’s like my Phil Mickelson golf fanhood. Yes he’s very good, but he’s more interesting because you never know what might happen on the next hole. On the upside, Woody is probably a better influence on Wallace than Saunders was.

SalimFan I think Dumars was publicly fishing to see what came up from his press conference. You are more likely to get a call when you send out a signal that you are willing to deal. When you hide in the closet of granny’s condo with your cell phone off, no deals get done…if you know what I mean as we approach Sundown!

I think I’ve caught up, well I’ll WAF on that!

By AtlFlavor

July 15, 2008 5:56 PM | Link to this

There is ALOT of things going on in HawkLand. Dont be fooled by the info or lack of info given to the public. Its really easy to tell what just by taking a step back and looking at the BIG picture. The # One thing is Speedy in the summer league. The Hawks need to resolve this issue ASAP. Hence Speedy in a summer league Jersey. The monies tied up with him are crucial. The Hawks have input a Sh_t or get off the pot stance with him. Speedy knows if he goes out on a medical nobody is going to touch him ever again. So I dont blame him in that regard, but still he will be ok IF he has taken care of his personal finances. Those Five hundred thousand dollars checks are Crack like. They get you hooked. Josh S is being low balled to the extreme IMO. He might think the 45 million they offered last summer was low until this is over. There is great chance of haveing all these guys Gordan Deng Okafor and Iggy the Joshes included being sentenced to a one year Deal of I told you to take the offer last summer. Not only the Hawks but this sport and this Country is HURTING for money. NOT that credit crap, I mean hard cash Flow. One of the biggest Banks in the world just crashed with more to follow. Freddie and Fannie will fall in 90 days if the gov doesnt save them. Budwiser was just sold. Hell the gov borrowed money you got in that stimulus check. There is money in this country but the people with it have stopped spending it.So dont think the ASG is being stingy. They are like everybody else in the country right now with money they are hurtin. Again we are talking hard cold cash not that credit crap. Once this money issue is cleared up, then you will see the roster take shape. I wouldnt expect the payroll to be that high, because you can sign all the players you want, but how can they play if you cant pay the light bill.

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

Salimfan, Caron Butler plays SF, not PF. That belongs to Jamison.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this

Newkid, I agree. Wit hReasheeds Character issues and considering his Dumars migh just get desperate and take the best available deal. Besides If you get Bibby in a trade I don’t think anyone would call it desperate, just smart.

But th Hamilton/Billups part is what’s tricky. McGrady is injry prone and Billups and Hamilton have always been pretty healthy not to mention they rank near the to at their respective positions.

While using Bibby as Stuckey’s insurance policy is smart. Bibby is Injury prone himself, which might make Dumars hesitant to pull the trigger on the deal. Either way if the deal went down it would be a Win/Win situation for all three teams involved.

Manny, I see your point. Dumars you slick son-of-a-gun Lol.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

TB, I was saying that when Smith Guards fast high energy Small Forwads for extended periods of time he get’s really tired. I don’t his lateral quickness is suited for him to guard players like that the WHOLE GAME. A couple of minutes sure but not 48.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 6:21 PM | Link to this

….SF, that’s what I meant lol.

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

Well Ray, So you think Smoove will have a problem guarding the Dirk’s, the Duncan’s, and the Stoudemire’s night in and night out. WHO IN THE HELL WOULD’NT? Those guys are All-Stars. It does’nt matter who they sign, they wont be able to stop those guys. If you put it like that, we might as well leave Horford at the 5. He only goes up against the Mcdeyss’, the Mourning’s, the Haywood’s, and the Perkins’ of the Eastern Conf. lol! And btw, just imagine the Dirk’s, the Duncan’s, and the Jefferson’s trying to guard Josh Smith! It goes both ways.

By ray

July 15, 2008 6:29 PM | Link to this

Kirk, would it be sufficient to say that no matter what you say or I say, we are still not going to come to each other’s way of thinking? I can defend my arguments just as long as you can defend yours. We won’t agree.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this

TB, I like the way you think

Newkid, I also forgot to throw Rasheeds age (34) into the equation. That along with his attitude might persuade Dumars to get a deal done for him quicker.

Kirk, In lmaens terms Ray wants to Agree to Disagree. I say you take his offer because just like Ando Ray can keep going for days (Insert Energizer Bunny Commercial Here) lol.

By jhan

July 15, 2008 7:31 PM | Link to this

If Josh Smith would just develop a consistent jump shot life would be easier. Josh would be worth the money he wants. Josh would be an unstoppable SF. His handles are good enough to get by a defender if his J’s falling.

Al could move to PF. We could use the contracts of Marvin, ZaZa & Bibby to find a center & bench help. Acie takes over the Point.

Anybody want to sign Josh up for the Eddie Johnson jumpshooting program?

By HHoops

July 15, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

Bibby for Rasheed? Boy that’s a gamble. We loose a outside shooter on a team that needs more outside shooters and we make ourselves thin @ point. What’s the rest of the plan? Who do we get as a back up point? Lou? Who is the other outside shooter?

I like Rasheed @ the 5 and not loosing J. Smith in a trade, but I think it keeps us weak @ point & outside shooting.

I predict that our 1st game line up will be this:

1-Bibby, Acie, & Speedy

2-JJ, Childress & West

3-Marvin & Richardson

4-J. Smith & Solomon

5-Horford & Zaza

We probably will not make the playoffs next year with this line up and Coach Woodson will probably be let go. I hope that I am wrong, but standing pat while your competitors are making trades to improve, will make for a long season for Hawks fans.

Last summer I make a simular prediction on who the opening day line up would be and I got it right. I hope I’m wrong this time!

By A Thinking Fan

July 15, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

^^BASG!**

By newkid

July 15, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

HHoops, maybe you’re right; maybe Bibby’s outside presence is too much to give up in exchange for a 5 (even @ 34 years of age) who might significantly improve our front court offensive production and help some on the defensive end of the court. Tough call to make, even with a healthy and productive Speedy. Hopefully we see our small investment in Jeremy Richardson pay huge dividends; maybe we somehow find a cheap but effective shooter in free agency. What’s certain is that none of these hypothetical scenarios make sense if Speedy continues to have chinks in his armour.

By drmaryb

July 15, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

Wow I can’t believe this blog is actually sittin’ ‘round talking about SOLO A NOBODY who is too lazy to play summer scrimmages? A Sorry bench player - At Best!

And we are supposed to be excited about what the HAWKS are gonna do - next season? Puh-Lease!

I will continue to roll-over and go back to sleep! Thank God for my Life…I better go live it ! LMBoobiesO!

See Yall in October if anything really exciting happens- not a darned thing going on here—-Hey Guys - Go on Vacation, do something constructive!

PEACE-OUT! til November 2008!

By terrell barron

July 15, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

HHops, add a couple of vets to that lineup(shooter and big), and I think we’ll be o.k. How about Shannon Brown and Elson/Skinner? And likewise, Salimfan.

By cheese

July 15, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this

espn reports that the nuggets agree to trade camby to the clippers for a 2nd round draft pick to replace brand.

By Astro Joe

July 15, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=3491156

ESPN is reporting Marcus Camby to Clippers for a 2nd round pick. This essentially means that Smith has 3 choices, accept a long-term offer from the Hawks, accept a 1-year qualifying offer from the Hawks or accept an offer from another team for less than $6M annually. Denver will NOT have any cap space this season, it looks like the deal with get them below the luxury tax but still over the salary cap.

Okay, Sund, now let’s use Kevin Martin and AL Jefferson’s deals from last year to get Smith signed, get Chill signed and then go ahead and (please) get either Kwame or Foyle as our big man. As much as we need a shooter, I’d rather have a defensive big to give us 20 minutes of fury than a name-brand shooter.

By TheHawksFan

July 15, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this

The Clips just picked up Camby. Looks like Josh is stayin home with a 1 year deal. I think thats the best for him any way. Hate to see him walk away next year, but can you blame him after this treatment??

By Reggie

July 15, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this

Sources: Nuggets agree to trade Camby to Clippers for second-round pick By Marc Stein ESPN.com (Archive) Updated: July 15, 2008, 9:25 PM ET Comment Email Print

Camby The Los Angeles Clippers have agreed in principal on a trade with the Denver Nuggets to acquire center Marcus Camby as their replacement for Elton Brand, according to NBA front-office sources.

Sources told ESPN.com that the Clippers will only have to surrender a second-round pick to acquire Camby, who is being jettisoned by the Nuggets purely for payroll relief.

Marc Stein covers the NBA for ESPN.com.

By kirknga

July 15, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this

MannyT

Agreed. At this point however, I do not have enough information or results from which to form a conclusion. Give a snapshot opinion so far yes, but draw conclusions no.

Different is exactly what he is at this moment.

ray

We’ll yes, we knew this was the remaining big concept basketball difference between us. Even though I stand on an opposite side, I do think you have made a rational argument.

Salim Fan Yes, agree to disagree it is. The subject just kind of popped up again and like two puppies with a new chew toy there we went!

Unfortunately, we are in an abyss, a spot in the summer FA process that at this point has produced sporadic movement of a few players.

Like someone else has coined, it’s Ground Hog time.

By SalimFan

July 15, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this

Yes Darnit!!! Finally anther Shannon Brown Endorsement lol.

By kirknga

July 15, 2008 10:05 PM | Link to this

Astro Joe Thanks for the info. Looks like once again, the offer sheet we were lead to believe was immanent, was a figment of someone’s best hopes.

I would add that there is another option, he can leave if the Hawks sign and trade him somewhere else.

Now that the market has apparently spoken, I believe we are now in a phase were he can be resigned, but under conditions that are most favorable to the Hawks.

Could the Hawks now conclude that rather than see him walk next season, or disrupt the team come February, that there are teams out there who have pieces the Hawks feel are a better return than a 1 year contract?

Maybe in the process of exploring their options should things “get out of hand”, they came across a deal that works.

By bigeasy830

July 15, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this

I know Al is just a second year player, but I do not like him playing on a summer league team, he is to valuable. I hope he does not get hurt. I understand these young players need to work on there game. But, but it is insane to have guys like Beasley and Rose play hurt in summer league games. I think it is even more insane to have Al in there healthy. He should be working on his game in a more controlled environment, not against some hungry undrafted players trying to make a roster.

By doc

July 15, 2008 10:17 PM | Link to this

interesting stuff, maybe the nba is beginning to feel the effects of this economy and head towards a real approximation of a salary cap. some of the deals that have gone down the last two years suggest a bit of budgetary austerity … well for gazillionaires.

colluision on rfa’s!

By stevo

July 15, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this

i have not read the comments, so forgive me if this is misplaced. but i really hope many of you who have consistently castigated sund and the hawks for ‘doing nothing’ realize how wrong you were.

with the clips out of the picture, and no real remaining options, the hawks bargaining position has never been stronger. how did this happen? by being patient. and no, this is not, was not, and has never been ‘luck’. the fact is they held all the cards all along. they also realized that mr. smith, although an extremely attractive asset and hopefully a huge part of the hawks success for many years to come, is a flawed entity at this point. a flawed entity that will still most likely get upwards of $60 million dollars at this point, but flawed. flawed in a way that keep the hawks (rightly) from throwing the max at him, no questions asked (as many of you have been breathlessly panting for, whether stated or not, by your demands of immediate action and resolution), and have also kept potential suitors from doing the same and instead, seeking alternative, and superior solutions.

the hawks are left in a far superior position, both short and long term as a result. thankfully they didn’t panick (as many of you did) when the sixers (gasp!) pulled out the jersey treatment.

smith’s last card is the one year deal, but i think deng and gordon might counsel against that strategy, to name a few.

and while i am at it, to address what some have alluded to for next year, unless marvin explodes for 25/game next year, i certainly hope we do go through this ‘nonsense’ again next year.

ya all are fools.

cheers!

By HHoops

July 15, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this

Newkid,

How about this trade and these pick ups?

Do what you said, trade Bibby for Rasheed and I think you can get at least a #2 pick also. The Pistons will need a PG to help Stuckey if they trade Billups.

I’m sure that the Hawks will now sign both Joshes since the Clippers got Camby.

Next go sign Dooling (he turned down a bi annual exemption for 1.9 M from the Magic) and possibly get Reddic also. The Hawks will save about 2 M on the Bibby-Rasheed trade.

This is a much better team than what we had this past season:

1-Acie, Dooling, Speedy

2-JJ, Reddic, Chills

3-Marvin, Chills, J. Smith

4-Horford, J. Smith, Solomon

5-Rasheed, Zaza, Horford

The Hawks now have a 5 that can score inside and outside and play defense with an attitude. Horford can now play 4. J. Smith can now play 3 & 4 according to what we need that particular game. We picked up another outside shooter in Reddic and we still have depth @ point guard with Acie, Dooling & Speedy.

And best of all, the Hawks probably only increased their pay roll by whatever it cost to sign the Joshes. Whay do you think???

The Hawks Fan,

You are probably right about Josh S. signing for 1 year, but I could see him signing for 3 years with the 4th year as a player option. That would give him another big opportunity to get the Big Check when he is 25.

What do you think about Josh C.? I think the Hawks will offer him the MLE.

By ray

July 15, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this

……..ding……

By Melvin

July 15, 2008 10:45 PM | Link to this

Look like I was partially correct. Just swap Camby for Jordan…

By Melvin

July 11, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

Don’t be surprise if the Clippers don’t sign a big time PF this summer and decide to go with the Twin Towers of Kaman and DeAndre Jordan…

By MannyT

July 15, 2008 10:47 PM | Link to this

The Camby deal is the example of what I call a magic beans deal a la Jack & the Beanstalk. Like the Gasol deal, one side gives up very little in terms of value for what they get in return.

Any team with significant cap space or a notable trade exception could have done a deal like this. My biggest BK complaint was not about the PGs in the 2005 draft, it was letting the trade exception gained in the Al Harrington deal expire w/o being used. This is a great example of how you can use a trade exception to your advantage.

Please keep all frequent visitors to this blog away from sharp objects and pills for the next 24 hours

Hawks current cap number just under $51.8 mil

Current NBA cap $58.68 mil

Camby makes $8mil this upcoming season. Under NBA rules, you could have traded for him with $6.32 mil of cap space. While I cannot say how this works with the cap holds for MLE, if we could have essentially renounced the use of our MLE, the Hawks would be far enough under the cap to have done the Camby deal.

if your straight jacket is on, feel free to insert your favorite Hawks management joke here. Donald Sterling is off the ridicule clock. The ASG is now on the ridicule clock until further notice.

Give up 2nd round pick, get Camby…would you do that deal?…hmmm…

This does not change much for Smith. He still wants better money than the Hawks are offering. It cuts the counter offer options, but he is still the first RFA in the queue. Will he take what he can get with a quick player’s option to become UFA in 2 or 3 years or take the 1 yr tender unlikely unless we see a bitter divorce or will they come to some kind of agreement that allows everyone to be comfortable enough to keep things positive for team continuity.

Long ago I said, what you get paid is not a function of your worth, but the current market. That market is working against the current RFA class.

kirknga feel free to add your views. I’d like to put this post into evidence on my case for ASG perception problems. Your witness.

PAIN!

By RealSquawk

July 15, 2008 10:52 PM | Link to this

My first thought at hearing that Marcus Camby was had for a 2nd round pick was surprising!

Cause i thought we could have used him, but then i thought about cap space and decided that keep Camby. Bibbu, Joe, and the restricted free agents would have been difficult, but also quite worth it.

If there was ever a time for Ownership to do something crazy it would have been to put themselves through the financial craziness for the next two years, but whatever

and now it seems so much more likely that we will keep Smith or even more likely that maybe just maybe Smith we been gone in a sign and trade with the Clippers either way i want this to be wrapped up

By ray

July 15, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this

Kirk, allow me to reiterate that I would much rather your point of view be the more accurate/correct one, regardless of whether or not I hold the same view right now. And if it turns out that this is so….hats off to you for believing that which I have not.

Also, when I wish to agree to disagree, it’s because I feel like we’re at an impasse that is not worth the frustration of trying to make someone see my point. Not saying that this is your problem, but I do and have gotten frustrated before. I don’t give up, but that doesn’t exactly help. It becomes less of a discussion and more of an argument. And then it becomes a matter of right and wrong, which I don’t think really applies here. As you said, a kid’s game is the subject. Sorry if it sounds like I’m avoiding the question. I’m not running away…but I am trying to walk away firmly and not look back too many times, LOL!

terrell, I understand it works both ways. I feel that it is better to have a bigger, stronger, more physical defender when guarding the elite low post players, especially in the West. A certain amount of finesse and athleticism is necessary too, but the pounding….Josh Smith is not a physical defender (but Al Horford is).

On the flip side of the coin, a team with one of these low post players is not going to committ that player to guarding a guy like Josh Smith if they don’t have to. Just because Smith is playing the 4 for our team doesn’t mean he can do what a 4 can do on offense. In fact, he doesn’t have much of a low post game, so no need for Jefferson, Duncan, Stoudamire, etc to guard him. Besides, you’re going to want a quicker guy with quicker hands guarding Smith. Why? Because he doesn’t have the world’s best handle, and also you want to cut off his driving lanes. If he gets within 10 of the basket (or maybe even 12 or so), then it’s over. He gets airborne and only he can stop himself (and he does from time to time by not knowing what he wants to do once he’s taken flight). Not trying to refute your argument, but it really does work both ways…but not in the fashion you envisioned.

By stevo

July 15, 2008 10:58 PM | Link to this

I am living proof that the Dodo bird is not extinct and has learned to use computers.

By igotxx3

July 15, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this

rasheed is not coming back to atlanta

By stevo

July 15, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this

I got beat up again at a local sports bar for talking too much trash to other fans, so I figured I’d come here since nobody can kick my azz for real. Ya all are fools. There ya go. Cheers. Suckers.

By MannyT

July 15, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this

steveo my response regarding do nothing is in my prior post. Given the new GM with 30000 years of experience, I’d expect him to have an extensive rolodex/black book and several contacts across the league to tip him to such things as the Camby opportunity.

While I won’t go DarkManny I do reserve the right to MannyTJester as you may think me foolish, but I work hard to speak truths!

ray Can we get the Blog Crimes Unit to put out an APB on Sund and/or granny. Someone needs to just surface and state that he is alive and not being held hostage by an evil anti-Atlanta Hawks crime syndicate.

Where is Vinnie Terranova when I really need him?

doc I need some of that old world wisdom to make me feel better. Right now, I’m seeing cheap passivity instead of value conscious aggressiveness from the management.

I can’t blame this one on Woody, so a new acronym is hatched.

Sund’s Undercover Passivity Populates Lower Expectations, yup SUPPLE

By Astro Joe

July 15, 2008 11:09 PM | Link to this

MannyT, where do you get your salary data? Hoopshype has his salary at $8M next year while Shamsports has it closer to $10M. Also, does your calculation count the cap charge for the Joshes? Could we have done that without renouncing one or both of them? I’m trying to find fault in your math for the specific reason of not having to change my handle back to “Anakin Joe”.

Many moons ago, I suggested that a 3-year deal for Smith would be the best option for all involved. It gives the Hawks 3 more years to see if Smith fulfills his potential or if he has reached his plateau. I’d even go with 3/$45M. And now that the market is close to being dry as a bone, I go back to that recommendation as it gives Smith a relatively quick shot at free agency again.

By Blue Eagle

July 15, 2008 11:15 PM | Link to this

my dream atlanta hawk acquisition for this summer is

ANDRIS BIEDRINS

I just like the look of a starting five of:

C/F - Biedrins F/C - Horford PF/SF - Smith SG - Johnson PG - Bibby

6th man - Josh Childress 3rd Guard - Acie Law

Biedrins is is a legit double double guy who averages nearly 2 blocks and a steal a ballgame and shoots 60% from the field. He’s got a lot of poise and plays with maturity. He stands up well against the big name bigs in the league (like Tim Duncan for example) and he could be had for cheap. He’s definitely a better option than an over-the-hill veteran. With this acquisiton we could definitely match up well with the rest of the east frontcourts.

I’d say give up Marvin (a redundant asset) and Pachulia for Biedrins and (perhaps even) Matt Barnes.

By kirknga

July 15, 2008 11:17 PM | Link to this

MannyT

I can understand your point. I think it is a valid point. As I stated earlier, no organization is perfect so if it is a mistake one wants to find then so be it.

It really is what one feels should be the point of emphasis. So I have nothing to add.

Camby would have been a nice pick up. Perhaps that was one of those contigencies in case things “got out of hand”. But now that the Clips decided they wanted Camby more at this point.

ray

I agree, feel the same.

I still wonder if a 1 year deal is what is most favorable to the Hawks? I really don’t think we can automatically assume that a 1 year deal is a fait accompli.

How about that steveo!

By MannyT

July 15, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this

Here’s the hook that gets me interested. If the Clippers said, let us sign & trade for Smith and you can have Camby, I’d really have to think about it for a long time.

I know Camby’s old and Josh fills up the stat sheet. However, if Camby can keep doing exactly what he does, I don’t have to worry about him guarding Shaq sized centers in the East. His cap charge for 2009-10 goes down. Josh’s salary will do nothing but increase. This works for a budget sensitive team.

The firecracker in the but is that you are getting offered a player that you could have had for almost nothing had you been in the mix.

Woody could have had a pair of erasers for defensive mistakes. It would allow a healthy? Speedy to apply on ball pressure like nobody’s business. It would matter less that defense is not Bibby’s strong suit.

Can Bret Favre play center? I hear he might be available.

The sky is falling.

CLIP

By Cherie

July 15, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this

Bigeasy: Horford will not appear in games for Summer League. He’s there for practice until the USA Olympic Team starts their practice where Horford will practice against the likes of Kobe Bryant, Lebron James.

By MannyT

July 15, 2008 11:33 PM | Link to this

Astro Joe I got the numbers from Hoopshype. I see the Shamsports numbers now that yo have mentioned it. I’ll try to find some other sites to get a consensus.

kirknga I realize that the Hawks cannot be in on every deal, but there are certain things that fit within your areas of emphasis. Most would agree that we need a center and a shooter. If there are rumblings about one of the few above average centers being available, you have to be in the conversation.

I am not sure that the Warriors are done dealing. It is good to have a twin tower thing, but Camby is an improvement defensively, but a downgrade offensively when compared to Brand.

What would the Heat (Marion) or Pistons (Wallace) offer for Camby?

Maybe someone will fall out of the sky for us to dust off and put into the rotation.

CLIP

By Astro Joe

July 15, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this

MannyT, Camby and DeAndre Jordan (and throw in a protected 1st round pick) will have me packing Smith’s suitcases. But I couldn’t do Camby straight up, even though he has been fairly healthy the last 2 seasons. I need a little more.

By kirknga

July 15, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this

MannyT

Camby and a draft pick works better I would think.

By Matt

July 15, 2008 11:37 PM | Link to this

MannyT,

I’m almost positive that the Hawks wouldn’t have been able to get around the salary cap by renouncing their ability to use one of the FA exceptions. Not completely sure, but the general rule is that you cannot combine exceptions or use any combination of exceptions and cap space to sign a free agent, or so says the always-helpful NBA Salary Cap FAQ.

We would have had to have given up someone with an expiring contract worth at least $1.2M and who would not put them further over the cap (i.e. not Bibby) to get Camby. We only have two players who fit that bill: Marvin Williams ($5.6M) and Zaza Pachulia ($4M).

Zaza and a 2nd rounder for Camby still would have been a no-brainer for me, but we never could have gotten Camby anyway because the trade was a pure salary dump for the Nuggets. They just got hit with a $14M luxury tax last week, and so the Nuggets’ owners clearly wanted to dump all $8M of Camby’s salary without taking anything back - certainly not any player who would cut the salary dump in half.

The Clippers had the cap room to take on all $8M of Camby’s salary. The Hawks don’t. Thus, the Nuggets GM probably never even bothered talking to Sund - or any of the 25 GMs of teams with less than $8M in cap room right now (only the Clippers, Warriors, Grizzlies, Bobcats, and Bulls qualify).

It’s really that simple.

By ray

July 15, 2008 11:42 PM | Link to this

Kirk, you make some good points about Knight, Smith, and the roster as a whole.

Knight wasn’t one of our worst GMs. I mostly was aggravated at his drafting. Of course, I wasn’t happy about Al Harrington leaving for almost nothing and then what we did have (the mid level exception), we didn’t use. I guess you could decide who you want to blame for that: Knight, his bosses, or nobody. I recall that a lot of people kept saying that he brought a lot of talent here. He did, mostly through the draft, and obviously with the JJ trade.

The problem comes in that you can bring in all the talent you want. But are you bringing in the right talent? A host of swingmen is great, but he drafted ONE point guard, and much later than he should have. I don’t count Royal Ivey, because he was a 2-guard who had to learn point a bit just to stay in the NBA. Either way: not an impact player at all. I take that back. He also drafted Cenk Aykol. Cenk? You there, buddy? Cenk? Anyway….Here’s another thing. If you’re going to continuously draft the same or relatively the same kind of player, you do it for the sake of using your assests correctly. If you don’t, you end up with a bunch of talent, no continuity, and holes in your lineup. This is exactly what Donnie Walsh is dealing with in New York right now: all this talent…and finding ways to turn talented assets into something useful.

We haven’t done that, despite Billy having acquired in one way or another, 10 forwards or swingmen (or more). I say that because I see JJ as a 2/3 and Sheldon, Solomon, and Al are all really power forwards in my opinion. Zaza is a center who is probably better played at PF sometimes. But you get my drift. So after trying to field a team comprised of nearly ONE type of player, he finally admits that a point guard is needed. We got Speedy. Then Lue, then AJ. Didn’t get it even close to right until we got Bibby.

You’re right on about two ironic things: many DO want to retain two players that he drafted. Most of us want to retain many of the players he drafted. But is that just pure hypocrisy…or is it because we have learned that this is mostly all we have? We have had two truly succesful free agent/trade acquisitions in the last 4 years. JJ and Bibby. That’s it. I think that’s why so many people clamor to re-sign the Joshes. Billy may not have made all the right picks, but his picks have been talented guys…for the most part. And many of us don’t want to see that go away.

Then again…some of us understand that for a team to get better…often times the fairy tale, sugarcoated idea of “everybody stays together and is happy for eternity” has to come to a screeching halt. It’s a business and always will be. Sometimes players don’t want to stay…I’m beginning to wonder just how much Josh Smith wants to stay right about now.

The other ironic thing is that Smith’s unique skills haven’t earned him acclaimed fame and a dozen offered contracts. It kind of isn’t all that surprising when considering how Elton Brand set the tone. I won’t chalk it all up to that, though. I look at guys like Kirilenko and Marion. These guys are forward tweeners that have unique skill sets that are similar to Josh’s (though Marion is the best shooter of the bunch). Guys like this are great, because they can do so much. Unfortunately, they don’t do any one thing so incredibly well that they become completely indispensable. Utah just about let Kirilenko go down the road when he started acting up. Marion is on the trading block….again. I think the reason is because teams realize that they can get by without players like this, if they just get adequate players in all positions. Why have a combo forward if you have a decent SF and a good PF (or vice versa)? Why have a SF if you have two very mobile, aggressive, and rebound-capable SGs? (Example: Charlotte Bobcats-Wallace and Richardson).

And yet, Smith has a particular value on this team because of what we DON’T have. Add another post player to this starting five and suddenly either Josh or Marvin has to sit down. Add a big center to the starting five, one who is capable of defending and rebounding quite competitively and suddenly Josh is forced away from the basket….because the center and Al are clogging it just fine by themselves. Suddenly Josh has to be a slasher and a shooter.

But we don’t have that. And so a guy like Smith helps us get by and be competitive.

By the way, the part I was referring to with JJ’s take on re-signing the Joshes, that wasn’t new news, just as you said. I was calling attention to JJ’s attitude about the whole thing. Having been in the league for 6 years or so, and having been on three teams by now…his approach is more business-like, because experience has taught him to know better. Notice also how he says that “whatever” happens, this team needs to be ready come training camp time. Perhaps I read too much into it, but I get the feeling that the way he sees it is not much different that what you stated: Joshes or not, we just need to get it all taken care of, get together, then work on being an improved product.

You’re right, it’s ironic

By Matt

July 15, 2008 11:43 PM | Link to this

Manny, add this to the end of my first paragraph - “I assume that the same rule would apply to acquiring a player in a trade.”

By rainman

July 15, 2008 11:48 PM | Link to this

looks like the clips and 6ers watched one of smiths dribbleing highlight film and said we are giving this moron max money no way. if the hawks offer more than 10 mill they are crazy. smith hurts as much as he helps. hes young but some things dont change with age including color.

By ray

July 15, 2008 11:52 PM | Link to this

Matt, looks like the Clips were in the right place at the right time…and did the right thing. That’s all I can really say.

MannyT, you are just killin’ me with those acronyms…I can’t read your stuff and drink anything….

Kirk, feel free to take a bathroom break during my previous post….nobody can hold it that long without damaging the prostate…

That Stevo is one vehement fella. However, after his second and third post, I’d have to say that he’s either drunk or is being spoofed. Didn’t sound like him at all….so I’m going with spoofed.

By femhawkfan

July 16, 2008 12:07 AM | Link to this

Very few, if any, restricted free agents have been signed. This just proves to me two things: 1)teams really don’t like to gamble with restricted free agents and 2)almost every team is trying to clear up space for the 2010 free agent class.

So now, there is absolutely no reason why the Hawks should not be able to re-sign Smoov and Chill.

So far, the Hawks have really gotten lucky this free agent season and they didn’t even have to lift a finger.

By ray

July 16, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

Well, I wonder what Josh will do now. I really don’t know how he feels at this point about staying in Atlanta. I don’t know how the ASG feel about keeping him. And it looks like finally all the big hoopla has passed, and so has opportunity. No sense in crying over spilled milk, or Elton Brand’s After Effects.

Perhaps Joe’s three year offer idea is the best, especially if Josh feels that he is worth more. That, and he’ll get to prove it. You know, it’s funny. Some guys say he’s not worth 10 mil a year. He got offered 9 mil a year. What’s one more mil? Here’s another one: let’s say his scoring average goes up to 20ppg. That’s just 2.8ppg more than he averages now. That alone will be viewed differently, I’m willing to bet. What’s a 20ppg, 8rpg guy worth these days?

A good bit would be the answer. To his own team…or to another.

rainman, it really isn’t that bad. I’ve seen Marvin do worse on occasion (when he’ll actually dribble the ball). Remember that one game (was it in the playoffs? I think it was) when he got the ball and took off all by himself up the court…with nobody around him? Next thing you know, he’s dribbling with his knees, that caboose of his got all counter-balanced, then came the swan dive. Instant replays only made it worse because we couldn’t see what the heck it was that made him fall…He rarely goes coast to coast. Having seen that, I wouldn’t either…But seriously, do you think a 22 year old really can’t improve?

The last time I heard of a guy putting up the stats that Josh has, and was described as “hurting more than helping”, the name was Ron Artest. And Smith is no Ron Artest. Like I said, it ain’t that bad…

By ray

July 16, 2008 12:53 AM | Link to this

ooop…new blog up.

By DSLIM

July 16, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

WHERE WILL SALIM END UP?? i feel as if woodson damaged this guys career

By igotxx3

July 16, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this

Josh Smith doesn’t want to come back unless mike woodson is gone

By Ghook

July 16, 2008 9:12 PM | Link to this

Sekou,

Thanks for the excellent blog and for clearing up the whole Smoove/Woodson issue.

I wonder if you could answer a couple of additional questions.

One good thing you could say about Billy Knight is that he placed a lot of emphasis on character. I would imagine the Hawks locker room is one of the most disruption-free in the league. While I think Brown’s size and post defense could really help the team on the court, there have been rumors that Brown is a disruption in the locker room, which could hurt the team off the court. Are Rick Sund and the Hawks at all concerned about this?

Also, I know you wrote the story last season about the ASG not allowing Knight to fire Woodson. Do you know their reasons for this? Was it monetary, or did/do they genuinely feel he’s done a good job? Is it true that one of the job requirements during the recent GM search was that Woodson had to stay? This would make Sund a yes-man to Gearon, Jr. and whoever else if true, would it not?

I’m not a big Woodson basher, and I wasn’t extremely disappointed when I heard he signed a two-year extension, but I think there are much better fits out there (even Larry Drew, who guided to the Hawks to their impressive summer league record last year). Woodson’s grind-it-out, half-court isolation style really doesn’t play to the Hawks strengths in my opinion. He is also a coach who, by his own admission, tightened the Hawks rotation to 7 players out of desperation last season. He seems like a class act, but he may be in over his head.

What do you think about Woodson?

Anyway, keep up the good work Sekou.

By Joshua

July 17, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

You know these owners are screwed up , Mike got us to the play offs , There just crediting the wrong Mike , It was Mike Bibby not Mike Woodson that got the Hawks over the hump . Is the team extending him no nothing mentioned , Meanwhile the best over talent on the team Josh Smith is rumored to be angry as he’s not a fan of Woodson’s either and so the future of our team is angry a free agent and probably gone either now or next year all because of ownership not willing to spend. Look at who is out there and they hire Woodson , Doug Collins who knows how to build young talent , Avery Johnson a firey tempered motivator and then they’re is Flip Saunders whom Smith wouldv’e flourished under , You know the guy that made KG , Yeah that guy he might’ve taken a few million and turned Smith into the top 5 talent he can be . But no we sign Mike Woodson . Who has no buisness at all being a head coach and only got his job because of Larry Brown who himself took like twenty years to win a title and has had like a million jobs . Brown’s a fraud not a great and Woodson is also a fraud . Fire WOODSON !! extend Bibby and save our Smith !!!

By Joshua

July 17, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

SAVE OUR SMITH

By robert

July 20, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

Who wouldn’t think it was best to keep the group that ended the season together? They definitely gave Boston the biggest challange. And-who wouldn’t want to play on a team with Joe Johnson? He’s so dependable, and has taken the team on his back in many games!

By robert

July 20, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

Who wouldn’t think it was best to keep the group that ended the season together? They definitely gave Boston the biggest challange. And-who wouldn’t want to play on a team with Joe Johnson? He’s so dependable, and has taken the team on his back in many games!

By robert

July 20, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

Who wouldn’t think it was best to keep the group that ended the season together? They definitely gave Boston the biggest challange. And-who wouldn’t want to play on a team with Joe Johnson? He’s so dependable, and has taken the team on his back in many games!

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