Hawks

By khao$

July 3, 2008 8:03 AM | Link to this

It’s funny Sekou. People around the league values our talent more than a segment of the fanbase in our great city. You brought up a great point. These guys continued to get better, despite the ownership and coaching messes. What would they do in a more stable enviornment? What was the point of rebuilding and going through Billy Knight’s “process” if we’re not going to keep these guys or trade them for comparable/all star talent? After grooming them, it would be a shame to see them flourish under another team’s system.

By travis

July 3, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

HAPPY 4TH TO ALL!! Hopefully, we can celebrate the 4th with Childres and J-Smoove in Atl attire

By josh

July 3, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

I have been a big fan of Jarvis Hayes since his uga days. He would help this team out in a big way. I don’t know a lot about Jones, but he sounds like someone who could really help the team as well. Have you heard any rumors about what the offer will be for Smith?

By Big al in texas

July 3, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

Hawks fan living in austin. I really hope that we can keep J-Smoove and Chills. Happy 4TH TO ALL!! Peace.

By Astro Joe

July 3, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Couldn’t the same thing be said about Ben Gordon, Iggy, Deng and Okafor? Whose knocking down their door to bring them in? Jarvis Hayes is a no-brainer and has been since last summer. Douglass High School grad, UGA player (star player for best UGA team in the last 20 years) and fits a specific need for this team. Give me Hayes and Kwame and we’d be in good shape. Chill isn’t coming back, he will have far too many opporunities to play for a title next season. Smith will be back, likely over-paid, but he’ll be back.

By doc

July 3, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

sekou as a fan that comment that got highlighted as one we dont talk abut often is really the essence of the frustration hawk fans feel and has been an underlying theme here since day one as noted by khao$. it is called the growing pains that go with watching these guys go through the metamorphosis into nba players. we have called it organic growth.

in essence, if the owners dont resign these guys or bring in very equivalent talent there will be a sense of betrayal on our end. for years we have supported a product labeled as young and immature but one that we will train and keep for the long haul as we grow them up. the time has come; the crucible has been burning as alchemy has taken hold. now what will we be left with, gold or rubbish?

we all await to see the true nature of our BASG group that either are stewards of the hawks or seen as running the franchise further intot he ground. personally i think gearon has to be concerned about how all of this will reflect on him if there are further blunders. i hope that alone will keep this organization with its senses intact.

funny how one of the trolls picked up on another of our themes in the past few days of what happens if they flop and handle this as poorly as they did the thrashers? time is soon to declare what these guys really want out of this franchise. if they falter maybe there are only the seats that they sit in at mid-court that are filled; let them have their toy.

By SalimFan

July 3, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

Sekou, I’m not worried. As long as we can match these offers they can enjoy themselves, go on plenty of tours and eat as many cheese steaks as their stomachs can hold. I KNOW that’s whats happeneing. They’re just livin it up at other teams expenses just to leave them high and dry when the dust settles.

James Jones is nice but that knee REALLY scares me, (can somebody say speedy). With all of these people having constant knee problems after surgeries (Webber, Amare, SPEEDY, Bill Walker, Tiger Woods, Darius Miles) i’m not sold on these surgeries anymore. Portland may try to get rid of him before his knee acts up again.

Sekou, You said Hayes wouldn’t come into play until later in the offseason. BUT don’t the Hawks have to sign all of their NEEDS while still being under the cap before finalizing the deals with our own players eat up that cap space(they have Bird Rights)?

By Allan in austin

July 3, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

Hawks fan now living in austin texas. I hope that we will be able to keep J-Smoove and Chills. HAPPY 4TH TO EVERYONE!! Peace.

By Astro Joe

July 3, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

SalimFan, you’re right from a cap perspective, but how about from the standpoint of basic expense management. Seems to me that the owners need to know there salary expenses with one or both Joshes before deciding if they bring in Jarvis or Jeremy, Kwame or Earl Barron. The order that they submit the paper work to the NBA offices is what is key. They could reach an agreement with Smith on a Monday, sign Jarvis on Thursday and wait until Saturday to turn in Smith’s contract (as an example). I seriously doubt that these guys are so loaded that there only concern in the luxury tax threshold. It would be a freakin’ miracle to go from the 5th lowest payroll to a top 10 payroll during one off-season.

By kurtz

July 3, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

One hopes the Hawks have a number already in mind for Smith and Childress. If others want to overpay for free agents, so be it. The best addition to this team would be an all round triple threat player who creates mismatches at multiple positions and is willing to play defense. That addition would determine a style of play which to this point has been a Hawks weakness.

By Jared

July 3, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

So i guess the overall concensus is that Smith will be stating in the ATL? I’m a Philly fan and haven’t seen Smith play as much as i’d like. His stats def. represent star potiential and at age 22, you have to think his game will only get better. As much as i’d love the Sixers to come out on top, i’m not to sure Smith is what our team really needs. Having Thad Young and Iggy, we already have great swing guys for years to come, what we really need is a Low Post Presence on the offensive and a real shoot. Smith, while being ultra athletic, is neither a good shooter nor a low post player. And i really don’t see him ever being that type of player. He’s best when he’s able to run and use his athletic ability, which isn’t what the Sixers really need. I wish that Baron Davis hadn’t gone to the Clippers cause my Sixer’s would have had a real chance at a player that really fits the our needs, Brand. But that’s not going to happen now.

By Maniac is accurate

July 3, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

Smoovey doesn’t really have a choice here, does he? Isn’t all this fanfare actually aimed at the Hawks and not on Smoovey? Afterall the final decision belongs to the Hawks to match or not. Seems like a mind game to me.

By sandeigophillyfan

July 3, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

looks like a great day my phils in first sweeping the braves at atlanta twice in 2 weeks, and 76ers signing smith win win all around lets all drink to that

By Samuel

July 3, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

I too believe that Josh Smith will be resigned. I know many here may like to find fault in what he Can’t do but many fans in this town love Smith. I can’t see my boy Rick and the ownership dropping the ball on this one. Josh goes and our team suffers tremendously.

I would prefer Hayes over Jones. He’s tougher and playes better defense.

As far as a big. I wouldn’t have a problem with Kwame. He’s definately got size and skills. You never know who or what environment he may finally mature in. He was put in two akward situations being the #1 pick plus playing for your Dad(from a credible source. Check out the resemblance) and going to LA. Atlanta and Woody may be a good fit.

By MannyT

July 3, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

It all goes back to the real internal salary budget for this season. If Smith’s deal puts us way over budget, start the whisper campaign to get the sign & trade options with over the cap teams that WILL give some value back.

We should be able to afford Chills. If not we have to look at the same options.

Based on the Sekou comments about having done the heavy lifting of development here—that just reeks of an organization that is stuck in PAIN mode.

You have the most attractive RFAs and you cannot keep them even when you have the right to match.

If I’m the ASG, I’d put some emotional countermeasures in place to help Smith know he’s wanted. Get that marketing dept together to do some video of his successes here and the places he likes to hang out at in Atlanta (that are not in Philly.)

Still not worried about timing, but I hope Sund has a plan to make something good happen. Surprising us with good CRAP is the way to go…enough of the PAIN that hangs around the last 9 years like old mistletoe on a troll.

By darrell starks

July 3, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

WHATS UP SEKOU SIXERS JUST PULL ONE ON US THEY OFFER JOSH SMITH 67MILLION THEY ARE PLAYING GAME WE CAN NOT LET GO JOSH SMITH OR JOSH CHILL FOR NOTHING WE HAVE TO DO A SIGN TRADE A SAY KEEP ONE AND DO A SIGN A SIGN TRADE THE OTHER WITH BIBBY 14MILLION DOLLAR WE NEED A SCORE AT THE 3 POSTION IN THE WORST WAY MAY BE A CAMELO DENVER IS THINKING ABOUT TRADING HIM I SAY MAKE A OFFER OFF JOSH SMITH BIBBY14MILLION AND NUMBER ONE DRAFT PICK OR!!!!!!!!!! JOSH CHILL BIBBY 14MILLION AND MARVIN WILLIAM AND NUMBER ONE DRAFT PICK I SAY YES LETS DO IT WE HAVE TO GET SOMETHING THIS CITY IS EXCITED FOR THIS TEAM DONT BLOW IT OWNER GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!

By LL Cool Scott

July 3, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

Who gives a sh*t what Philly does to “woo” Josh?

It will come down to $$ - they’ll make him a huge offer, he’ll sign it, and then it will be up to our owners to match it or not. All this wining and dining means absolutely NOTHING.

By MsDee

July 3, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

I just read somewhere where Philly offered Smith 67mil…if that is the case, I would send Smith packing, try and get Iggy or Del(their center), keep Chills, and try and get Javis Haynes. Smith is good, but not that good.

By femhawkfan

July 3, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Yeah, Smoov maybe enjoying all of this fanfare, but the fact remains the Hawks can match any offer that the Sixers put up. So the Sixers can keep wining and dining Smoov like he is some college recruit, but the fact remains that he is a RESTRICTED free agent. If they are so in love with him, they should go ahead and put a offer on table.

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

Yeah 5 yr 67 million. That’s 13.5 a year. He might be a goner.

By gutz

July 3, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

The most Philly can offer him is 5yrs at 67million assuming the 8% annual raises and i think we would match that in a heartbeat. Our franchise is doomed if we don’t. We cannot let SMoove go!

By ATL Rattler

July 3, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

This thing is kind of like the stock market right now, it’s difficult to watch. However, unlike the Hawks I know the market will eventually turn itself around & go back in the right direction - with the Hawks I have no friggin clue. Sund is new to us, what the BASG has done in the past has been scary.

It’s not quite on the level of trading Nique, as Smoove is a lot younger than Nique was at the time, but if nothing of extreme high quality is received in a sign & trade I might go down to their offices myself & express my displeasure (for the record I don’t care how old Nique was, he shouldn’t have been trade-and especially for broke-ars Danny Manning).

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

I love Smoove, but 13.5 mill is a lot of money. We could get a good shooter and a decent big for less than 13.5, easily.

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 12:32 PM | Link to this

I love Smoove, but 13.5 mill is a lot of money. We could get a good shooter and a decent big for less than 13.5, easily. I’m torn! Maybe we should just trade Bibby and match.

By jhan

July 3, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this

Maybe Josh will take a 6/72 Million offer.

How about 3/45 Million offer. That saves the Hawks long term money & gives Smith another shot at free agency at 25.

$13.4 Million is a lot for Josh. Not sure he is worth that right now. Two years from now that price could be a steal. The ASG has until this time next week to make their move.

Hopefully Childress will get his offer shortly so we can get this process moving. I would look to trade Bibby & keep the Joshes. Maybe the right move is to trade Bibby & Smith/Childress to address team needs.

I don’t really care who goes or stays personally, the real goal is to better the team for next year. If trading Smith = less highlights but 10 more wins, then make the trade. I don’t know what scenario would equate to that, but if it exists, make it happen!

Go Sund.

By Boheezy

July 3, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

Ok…..now lets say the BASG does the worst and let Josh leave, where do we stand cap wise? WOuld there be enough for us to do like Golden State and suddenly become a player for a bigger name player or are we still gonna have minimum room for signings? I really hope we keep Josh, Chills we can do a sign a trade for because some of the one player away teams are gonna be looking at him. I love him too for what he brings but he can be replaced. Dalambert is cool but I dont want him because he has those same mental lapses that everybody is complaining about with Josh. Jarvis Hayes should be the first person we sign other than Smoove. Kwame would be a solid backup. I think Zaza will step his game up if Droopy plays him. The next 2 weeks are going to be the major chapter of the rebuilding phase.

By Pete

July 3, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

This ish is too crazy!!!!! They should have settled this before the season started. Now we are missing the boat on other good players because we have not taken care of home first. Last summer they did not counter-offer Childress or Smith now they are at an impasse This group is playing roulette with their future.

The Hawks will be back in the lottery if they do not the settle contracts of Smith and Childress!!!!!!!!!

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

What I meant was Bibby’s contract will come off the books after next year, so maybe we should go ahead and match. But that is a lot of money, for an UNPROVEN player. I love his game, but we DONT REALLY KNOW how good he will become. He’s not a sure fire thing at this stage of his career, like say a Lebron, CP3, Deron, etc….. I was expecting Philly to go about 5 yrs 57 mill., not 5yr 67 mill.

By Don!

July 3, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

According to all the sports outlets here in Philly … or South Jersey where I live — they’ve made the max offer to Josh, $65M for 5-years.

I don’t know what the league rules are, but a lot of the talk here also concerns what else they can put into the contract to make it tough for the Hawks to match. There’s a feeling that since the front office is managed/mismanaged by a group of owners in legal limbo, that if they make it as financially painful as possible — they might be able to get Josh in Philly.

With that having been said, the other thing that comes up is what could they offer in a sign-and-trade. And of course, that draws the discussion around to the situation that most resembles this one regarding the Hawks and ASG — the Joe Johnson signing a few years ago.

Most of the Phillly folks I talk to aren’t scared of giving up two firsts, figuring they’re lottery protected and would wind up in the mid-20s anyway, but what player(s) could they add to make the Hawks interested. I don’t see any that make sense, and neither does anyone else. That’s the problem.

The general sense is that they’ll make the offer and the Hawks will match. However, there’s some hope that they can work a deal, or something to get Josh.

I don’t see it. But I’m hoping as a Hawks fan that this makes Josh see that he can be ‘The Man’ and bring that attitude in a positive way to the hardwood every night this season. Of course, my nightmare is that we match the max offer, or even extend it to a max offer on our end … and then Josh goes all Koncak on us.

Later,

Don!

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

GS offered Brand 5 yr 90 mill, after he was to re-sign with the Clippers for 5 yr 70 mill. WOW! It looks like he and Baron wont play together after all. lol!!

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

Yeah about 6yr 72 million should be the offer from the BASG, if he does’nt sign the offer sheet from Philly.

By SalimFan

July 3, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Looks like Detrot has the same idea.

By daniel

July 3, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

The Hawks must keep their promise to this fanbase and keep both Smith and Childress. Otherwise, this past 4 years have just been a waste. We have patiently waited for this plan to come together and now as it is about to, ownership must not be shy. I like Jarvis Hayes as a player, but what about Elton Brand. He is coming off of injury and would be cheap for a guy with his talent and skill set.

By daniel

July 3, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

The Hawks must keep their promise to this fanbase and keep both Smith and Childress. Otherwise, this past 4 years have just been a waste. We have patiently waited for this plan to come together and now as it is about to, ownership must not be shy. I like Jarvis Hayes as a player, but what about Elton Brand. He is coming off of injury and would be cheap for a guy with his talent and skill set.

By HB Ando

July 3, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

What’s up, fellas (and ladies)?

I’m enjoying a vacation at the Chateau Northside (hospital), day 4. Accomodations and service have been wonderful, with the price quite reasonable (10% co-insurance and a fairly large section of my lower abdomen).

Been looking for a compelling reason, say, something new to offer, as a spot to jump back in. And it’s just not happening. This is the same stuff that’s been discussed for nearly six months.

Discussions on cap implications are just as pointless today as they were then. Where is the suggestion that the ASG is going to end up anywhere near the league salary cap?! Comments about the fan base failing to appreciate some of the Hawks players are as misguided as before, neglecting the actual point that the team is mis-matched, not lacking in talent. And that moving certain players is born of financial necessity.

Don’t believe Sund for a moment when he says he’d like to keep the teams’ top 8 intact. That’s the same $65-67 million I highlighted six months ago, when these blog issues were first brought up.

To add discussions about acquiring free agents, without subtracting existing roster members, is even more ludicrous (with a nod to Iron Mike, and SS’s reference of the most exciting heavyweight I ever saw).

To keep the Josh’s, at market, Bibby HAS to go. To keep Bibby, at his current salary, either Smith, or Childress and another player or two have to go. And THAT STILL sees at least an increase in team salary of $10 million, which there is NO REASON to believe is realistic, given concerns about the ASG’s finances.

Sund lost me as soon as he said we didn’t need a draft pick because we didn’t need to get younger. That’s the kind of comment I would have expected from Billy, fronting for the ASG, and insulting the collective intelligence (giving too much credit to the Hawks’ fan base?), of Atlanta ticket buyers.

Almost every team in the league came away from draft night with an improved outlook, whether that was viable talent, or additional assets to improve their immediate future. By standing pat, we fell behind.

Look at teams in the East that we bested for that 8th seed. Of those teams, Indiana, New Jersey, Chicago, Miami, New York, Milwaukee and Charlotte, all stand to be better than last year, based on collective changes they’ve made in their organizations (New York and Charlotte got better just by changing their head coaches). Indiana and Milwaukee made significant improvements in their rosters, as did Miami and Chicago, which will both be better than the Hawks next year.

We’ve done nothing but get rid of an old problem, in Billy. Our realistic, best-case scenario, unless I’m just dead wrong about the financial realities of the organization, is that we’ll maintain status quo, with an imbalanced roster, a flawed head coach, and an over-priced, over-the-hill Mike Bibby, being paid $14.5 million.

I don’t see Josh Smith going anywhere. And that’s the right call. But either Childress or Bibby, based on money alone, will have to move along. The good news is they both have value in the market, albeit for different reasons, and, properly marketed, represent our best chance to re-balance the squad and actually put a better product on the floor.

In the NBA, as in life, you’re either getting better or you’re getting worse. Standing still is not possible. And the teams we beat, for the 8th seed in the East, last year, all look better (with New Jersey the only team with a questionable outlook, from an immediate improvement standpoint, and New York simply too unpredictable to predict; but always flush enough to make a bold move).

The Hawks have pieces/assets that make improving the roster very plausible. Whether the ASG, and Sund, have the commitment, and skill, to optimize that opportunity, remains a very big question mark.

Redundant points about losing this player or that, continue to disregard the fact that all of the possible players who could move on will bring assets in return (which should ostensibly improve the balance on the floor, and the balance sheet in the front office).

There’s little reason for unchecked optimism, and plenty of evidence to support a position of concern and cynicism. Woody’s flaws were extremely apparent over the course of last season. But he’s still here. We have too many forwards, and a front line that doesn’t represent much of an outside shooting threat. Bibby was exposed as over the hill, and there’s no way he’s worth $14.5 million, on a team with such limited finances.

I’m dying for something new to say, or for some compelling sign that suggests this franchise is going to blossom this fall. Still don’t see either.

And I can’t believe that so many of you still come here daily to have the same arguments you’ve been having since the all-star break.

Take a vacation, hang out with the kids (my new daughter is wonderful, far better than I deserve).

Hopefully, something will happen, soon, that gives a hint of the direction this club is headed, in the near-term.

Right now, a visit to the old blog is eerily similar to the movie “Groundhog Day”.

By doc

July 3, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

hmmmm a while back folks pooh poohed my thought that smith was going to get between 65 and 75 mil. they all said no way! WAY!

short sighted trade for bibby if this is the outcome of too little money in the kitty.

very interesting developments.

got to ask if there is so much activity for these guys and their stats so good why oh why were we just a 37 game winner last year? please dont say it was because of the lack of a point guard. if smith goes bibby better come back with his A game and his outside shot dialed in or this is going to be a one year playoff team bust.

By David

July 3, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

Do you think it would be worhtwhile to investiagte a trade involving Josh Smith and Andre Igudola in some shape or form? I know there would have to be more names thrown in, but Bibby, JJ, Andre and Horford doesn’t sound like a bad start to next season.

By JK

July 3, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this

SalimFan…we havn’t heard from you since before 10am. Not trying to single you out but I would really like your honest oppinion. You have probablly been one of his biggest supporters, so do you think this guy is worth $13+ mill? I like Smith’s energy, passion & he obviously is a hell of an athlete. But do you think he should be paid like that? We know he will be a STAR in Philly with the system they play. But can he be a STAR in ATLANTA with teh system we play?

By Clyde

July 3, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Who would want Bibby with his poor showing in the Boston series at 14 million?

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

If we happen to let Josh Smith walk, I say we make an offer to JR Smith, who’s restricted, and then grab an unrestricted big(O’Bryant, Elson, Skinner, or Kwame). If we cant pry away JR from the Nuggets, lets go ahead get Jarvis Hayes, Roger Mason Jr., or James Jones, and one of the before mentioned bigs and call it a day. Considering we’re talking about the BASG here, I guess I could live with that.

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

If we happen to let Josh Smith walk, I say we make an offer to JR Smith, who’s restricted, and then grab an unrestricted big(O’Bryant, Elson, Skinner, or Kwame). If we cant pry away JR from the Nuggets, lets go ahead get Jarvis Hayes, Roger Mason Jr., or James Jones, and one of the before mentioned bigs and call it a day. Considering we’re talking about the BASG here, I guess I could live with that. I still say we should shop Marvin.

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

If we happen to let Josh Smith walk, God forbid, I say we make an offer to JR Smith, who’s restricted, and then grab an unrestricted big(O’Bryant, Elson, Skinner, or Kwame). If we cant pry away JR from the Nuggets, lets go ahead get Jarvis Hayes, Roger Mason Jr., or James Jones, and one of the before mentioned bigs and call it a day. Considering we’re talking about the BASG here, I guess I could live with that. I still say we should shop Marvin.

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

And will the Braves send Francouer to AAA already? He’s killin em. I know he was supposed to be the next Golden Child, but pitchers have figured him out.

By vagaboy

July 3, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

37 games was phemomenal + a trip to the playoffs + a 7 game series with the eventual champs. All achieved with a roster laden with 1,2,3 and 4 year players. The only playoff team that comes near the youth in the Hawks uniform is Philadelphia. Pay attention to the progress this team makes each year and you should be proud to root for these guys. Woodson got here with nothing to count on but loosing and put this organization in the playoffs in 4 years. ONWARD AND UPWARD HAWKS.

By fudd21

July 3, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

Has the offer for Josh actually been made or is it just a rumor?

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

And will the Braves send Francouer to AAA already? He’s killin em. I know he was supposed to be the next Golden Child, but pitchers have figured him out. He’s not as good as you though Bobby. It’s time to send him down.

By fudd21

July 3, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Terrell you wanted to make sure you got your point across hence the 3 posts. LOL. Anyway, I say no way that if Josh walks we get rid of Marvin. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if they tried to extend Marvin. I think with Josh gone, Marvin’s numbers will improve and he could be had for a reasonable salary (say 35 mil for 5 years) right now.

I know we beat up on Marvin alot for his clumsiness, non-dribbling, and lack of a post game self but I still think he will be a 20ppg scorer in this league. I say that because to average 20 you have to be able to do more than one thing well. Right now Marvin shots the ball extremely well (albeit he needs to extend his range) and toward the end of the season he started to develop a little jump hook on the block. On the right block he could go over either shoulder and on the left block he could go over the left shoulder. So it that part of his game continues to develop and he extends his range I think he will be dangerous. Yea, I know alot of IF but I think with a good summer of work its very doable.

By Author

July 3, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Apparently, Clyde has never heard of the term “expiring contract.”

By The Realist

July 3, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

fudd21, I agree with you about Marvin’s potential. I must ask though: How many offseasons have we talked about Marvin’s potential? How many times have we said, “This should be a breakout year for him”? How many more “potential breakout seasons” do we give him before we finally chalk it up as a miss?

By jhan

July 3, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

If we sign Smith for 13.4M, Chills for 7M & we already have Bibby for 14M, doesn’t that give us 34M worth of assets to work with? We also have our draft picks going forward to use.

If other teams really want our boys, then we make them give us value in return. If nobody wants our boys, then we keep the 2 Joshes & deal Bibby.

Everyone needs to look at our players as business assets - not personal friends. There is no place for friendship & feelings in business. You must do what is best for the team/company otherwise you are doomed to failure.

By MannyT

July 3, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

I think the MAX you can offer a 4 yr player that is not already on your team is 25% of the cap plus 8% raises on a 5 yr contract. In this case with an estimated cap of 58 million, the MAX 5 yr contract would be just over 85 million…so there is a limit to the RFA love.

Welcome back Ando Hope things go smoothly.

If we let Smith go, his cap charge becomes our salary cap savings. That number is just under 3.2 Million. Add that to the cap space we would have and we can offer about 9 million as a first year salary. Total package for 5 yrs/about 52-53 million. The top RFA big is Okafor. I think he was offered more than that from Charlotte, so I doubt he’d be the replacement.

Welcome back Ando Hope things go smoothly.

LL Cool Momma said knock you ouuuuut! Money is important, but it is also important how you treat people. Because Josh could end up here on the exact offer that Philly makes, he won’t get shorted on the cash. What he could get shorted on is a sense that the Hawks are in his corner. We know he has a shaky relationship with the coach that just got a new deal. We also know that Philly is making the visible pitch to show him love. For the same pay would you prefer to work where they woo you or just tolerate you? Smith tends to play with a lot of emotion. It would be best for all if there was a good team/player relationship behind those emotions.

Welcome back Ando Hope things go smoothly. A suggestion to get out of the Groundhog Day loop—look at the summer league, but that won’t happen for 2 weeks. Maybe someone on that team shows enough promise to make the fall roster. If not, maybe offseason chats with Dark Karma will have to do.

Like jhan said—the roster needs to be better in November than it was in May. Keeping in mind the WUF (Woody undervaluation factor), Sund needs to dial up the right free agents to fill out the roster.

By HHoops

July 3, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

I wonder if any members of ASG ever get bored and need some laughter. I’m sure all they do is pull up these blogs and start reading and laughting. I’m going to the lake! Nothing is going to happen before July 9th and then we have 7 more days to see ASG really go to work! Happy 4th Hawks Fans!

By Clyde

July 3, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

Author I was talking about trying to get rid of him before the season starts which will be hard.

And can anyone answer this question in regards to the Atlanta Dream. They were an expansion team this year so how come they did not get to pick first in the WNBA draft? I know Candace would have helped them at least win one game this year.

By newkid

July 3, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

Isn’t it true that the final financial accounting to determine if a team’s payroll exceeds the cap penalty threshold is done at the end of June of each year? If yes, is it not logical to assemble ALL of the essential talent (somewhat irrespective of initial cap impact), then filter the lot on or before the trade deadline to get under the cap (by not taking on full salary equivalents) in preparation for the end of fiscal year accounting? Wouldn’t such an approach only be restricted by the funds available to pay salaries from season’s start to the trade deadline?

Could this have been BK’s plan when he traded for Bibby at the trade deadline? If he felt certain (hopely not just based upon a ‘feeling’) that he could move Bibby and/or Marvin - at or before the trade deadline - without having to take on full salary equivalents, then maybe purchasing J. Hayes and a big this summer AND retaining the Joshes isn’t beyond reason.

Regarding available funds, remember that JJ’s deal was front-end loaded, so payment of his deal is not actually consistent with what’s shown on the salary tables we access. There’s likely about a $2 million differential between JJ’s listed salary and actual payments. Also, because much of Speedy’s salary is paid via an insurer, funds are available here unless he attempts an ill-advised comeback. So, maybe there’s $6+ million real cash available beyond the estimated $71 million hard cap through the trade dealine?

Just saying…

By MannyT

July 3, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

jhan if we sign the Joshes with the intent of trading them, we will have to deal with BYC (base year compensation) issues. They are worth 1/2 salary value for trade purposes during 1st year of contract.

Bibby on the other hand is a mobile asset now…Golden State?

Looking longer term, how does this change Marvin’s next deal? His tender for 09-10 is over 7 million. He starts in front of Chills. I can see the cash register in his agents briefcase now.

For short term success and Marvin leverage, we need that shooter on the bench that can hit the 3. Statistically Chills is more of an effective 3 pt threat than Marvin.

doc I get the we should be able to win 37 games w/o big contracts and I agree to a point. I think other teams see the value in the Joshes due to WUF. If their coach is much better than our coach, they expect to get more out of the same players…so they are willing to value them higher.

Player used poorly is PAIN, used well is good CRAP.

By Astro Joe

July 3, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Look, if Smith signs an offer sheet of 5 for $65M, and I’m guessing the Hawks would be willing to go around 5/$60M, then is an 8% salary increase worth leaving your city? I lived 10 years in the NE, the cost of living increase in Philly will wipe out probably half of that 8% increase (unless dude plans to eat a crap-load of cheesesteaks).

By timein

July 3, 2008 2:53 PM | Link to this

anybody hear what the summer league roster looks like???Did we pick any non drafted free agents???Thats how West was last year out of tech

By newkid

July 3, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

Best wishes Ando.

By I.MUS WRITE

July 3, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

Sign Smoove now dam it!!!!! Youtube JS top ten plays from 06/07…nuff said

I would like to keep Chills,but if thats not possible maybe we can do a SNT with Houston.

Chills to Houston Battier/Joey Dorsey to Atlanta…..sounds like a winner to me- Battier has 3 point range and is a defensive stopper…. just ask Kobe how his d is. Dorsy is a yung man child in training.this way we insert Battier at the 3 and bring Marvin of the bench

Then sign Kwame or Elson to the MLE.

By Astro Joe

July 3, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

Ando, I hope all goes well. It’s amazing that all that stuff that you spew didn’t back up on your any sooner. Take care and try to get some ribs smuggled into the room tomorrow.

By doc

July 3, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

yeah manny t you made my point. thanks. aj didnt hero glavine take i mil more with the mets with a huge loss on the income due to cost of living just to say he could do it?

isnt philly a better town to get national exposure to help defray some of those costs if he is as good as everyone thinks he is going to be, if not now?

i wouldnt be surprised and suspect folks are going to choke when they see the offer. tried to warn ya.

By MannyT

July 3, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

Clyde It was arbitrary. The league assigned the 4th pick to the Dream before the draft lottery.

From a marketing standpoint, you have a better chance to develop the CP brand if she goes to an established team. More wins, more TV games, etc. She might not look as dominant on an expansion team. Don’t get me wrong, she would be a top player, but here she might see the double & triple teams very often.

The Dream has pulled several trades this season. They are working to get better, but they haven’t had much practice time or luck. The center from Brazil (DeSouza) was banging like a champ when I saw her 1st game (vs Detroit Shock) at our home opener. Unfortunately she broke her leg about a week later. Betty Lennox is their JJ, but she’s in her 30s so you don’t know how long she will keep it up.

Dream on.

By cp

July 3, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

Adding James Jones or Jarvis Hayes along with Kwame Brown would be some nice additions IF we bring back our own free agents. I wanted to give Gerald Green a shot but the Mavs scoooped him up. Call up James White and invite him to play for our summer team. He is a 2 guard who can defend and is very atheletic.

People why in the world would Philly give us Iguodala or Dalembert in a sign and trade? Im sorry its not going to happen. You might get some draft picks and a young player but thats about it. They are not giving up any of their core guys.

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 3, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

“Right now, a visit to the old blog is eerily similar to the movie “Groundhog Day”.”

Haha so true… this is why I’ve kinda scaled back my posts the last few weeks, because after a while I realized I was saying the same thing every day.

By 404atlhoops

July 3, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

I.MUS WRITE, I disagree with your Childress trade scenario because it does not make the Hawks better. Battier is a good defensive player but is nowhere as skilled as Childress. What make Childress so valuable is that he can move without the ball. So a team don’t have to run plays for him to score. Childress is one of the better offensive rebounders at the SF/SG position along with playing defense. Marvin Williams would not bring the same impact coming off bench as Childress. This is why so many teams want Childress. In my opinion, Marvin Williams is the most expendable player on the Hawks. Unforunately, he doesn’t have a high enough trade value to bring back what the Hawks need.

By Clyde

July 3, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

Manny T so in other words big business took the place of fair competition.

By MsDee

July 3, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

How will Philly be able to afford Iggy or Dalembert if they sign Josh to 67mil? I would love to get Dalembert instead of Iggy cause a center is what we really need. Get Javis and a bk-up pf, we good!

By Astro Joe

July 3, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

Doc, yeah, Glavine felt disrespected and unloved by suspender-boy. But Glavine was emotionally stronger when he left for the NE. I’m not sold that Smith is ready for the bright lights and big city (and added expectations of a phat contract in Philly). If memory serves me correctly, Al Jefferson received a 5/$65M deal last year.

And the Bibby trade got us in the playoffs, so it was needed. Here’s my thought, if the Hawks didn’t go almost .500 after the Bibby trade, we probably would have had closer to 32 wins and both Woody AND Smith would have been allowed to leave. Part of Smith’s value (to the Hawks and others) was borne in making the playoffs and going 7 games. I said last year, “link the team’s success to Smith’s contract”. Without the playoffs, no way would we even consider an $11M+ deal for this guy.

By MannyT

July 3, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Clyde it’s not automatically fair to give the expansion team the first pick. Even in the NBA, the draft lottery was created because of the game tanking theory. Sure it makes sense to give the worst team the top pick, but there are reasonable exceptions.

Look at your taxes. The feds have a sliding tax scale, but the people with th lowest effective tax rates are often those with the best accountants. Follow the rules, but find some tricky ones to give me a better deal.

Ms. Dee Your cap question keeps coming up. It’s a little wonkish, but the bottom line is simple…the Sixers can keep ALL of their players and still have enough cap money left to offer Josh (or any other free agent) a nice big contract that pays 60+ million over 5 years.

For me the bottom line of the summer is simple—Sund needs to put together a team that can/will win at least 41 games barring unusual circumstances.

I’m rooting for the Hawks to succeed, but the ASG kept Woody so that’s no excuse, just PAIN

A team that would win 47+ under a good coach + WUF * WAFFLE = 41+ wins.

Balls in their court. I made my 2008-09 season ticket commitment, but it is not a multi year contract. Now is the time for some good CRAP.

By I.MUS WRITE

July 3, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

404atlhoops- i hear what ur saying…. i would like to keep chillz if we can- trust me i saw atleast 75 games last year and I know that mans value to this team…..the problem is so do 8/9 other teams around the league which is why we may lose him. the way its looking now its either smoove or chills.

If we are gonna lose the guy then we need to get sumthing in return. I would really like to shop marvin but this organization really thinks alot of marvins one deminisional game. who knows maybe the 4th year is the charm…. maybe he will put up 20 a game and 8 boards……….Maybe Maybe Maybe………….I hope marvin does his thing this year becuz im really tired of beating that horse

By terrell barron

July 3, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

Hey Fudd, I was saying that we should shop Marvin instead letting Smoove go to Philly. He’s not going anywhere, if we lose Josh Smith.

By KevinM

July 3, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

Whatever the ASG does, its focus should be on how to improve our overall lineup, whether that means moving a Josh and signing one, or simply getting us a couple of rebounders in here. We have shooters in JJ, Bibby and Marvin. I think they get enough shots up. We just need to control the boards more because Zaza won’t be bringing it for 80+ games. And while we are in a state in influx, is anyone hearing if these guys are working out together? Is Woody’s offense so simple that they don’t need to prepare for it? Our bench can’t get much weaker than it already is and for those who are looking for the Hawks to move Bibby, forget about it! Woody isn’t turning the job over to Acie. He lets Bibby get max minutes and will then blame him for the results on the floor. Woody has a way of staying out of the line of fire. (How else could he have been brought back?) Give me a new starter this offseason and 2 more bench players and the whole town will be interested in watching us trying to go .500. And get ready, because Marvin isn’t going to come cheap next year.

By RealSquawk

July 3, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

Come on gents and ladies you seem so very adamant about the necessity of keeping Smith and trying to keep Childress, but really loosing both would not be that bad.

Lets think about it like this Management offered Smith $45 million dollars which he turned down. Now Smith could be offered something as high as lets see $66.7 million. All the while they completely burned Childress by not offering him anything and now Childress is (and I am guessing) seeing suitors from everywhere.

Lets look at this from a Philadelphia point view you now have a chance to solidify yourself at the 4 and the 6 and keep Andre and Louis Williams while also keeping Samuel Dalembert. With a veteran point guard and Thaddeus Young. Come on guys if you were Philly would you not be doing everything in your power to woo Mr. Smith and Childress to your more stable more historic team a team that values and appreciates the talents brought to the table by Smith and Childress.

Let us not forget how the ASG treats people they really want they told Mike Woodson playoffs and you stay. Mike Woodson made it to the playoffs and was taken care of.

Smith and Childress not so much

My side says let them go. WE still got Mike Bibby-Joe Johnson-Marvin Williams-Al Horford- and a Center….OOOOOOOOO wait a minute is that the half court team that Mike Woodson has been dreaming of!!! I think it is and it leaves us cap space for what is that the summer of 2009 and 2010.

I mean come on guys really loosing Smith and Childress could it really be that bad??

And what about Salim he is they guy who is going to leave and become the (Gilbert Arenas that got away) allstar no one expected and then how are we going to look.

But hey at least we got Woodson right? And cap space.

Really what is there that Arenas can do that Salim can’t?

By darrell starks

July 3, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

NO WAY SIGN DALEMBERT HE IS NOT A DOMNATING CENTER I WOULD RATHER BRING IN A KWAME BROWN ON THE LO LO AND SIGN A IGGLU FROM SIXERS LOOK LET ME SAY THIS IN TILL WE GE A STAR PLAYER AT THE 3 POSTION TO GO WITH JOE THIS TEAM WILL NOT GO ANY WHERE STARTERS ACIE, JOE, IGGY FROM SIXERS OR CAMELO FROM DENVER HORFORD KWAME BROWN BENCH PLAYER SALIM, CHRIS DUHON, JARVIS HAYES, ZAZA, SOLLOM JONES,

By Dennis

July 3, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

I say sign and trade Josh Smith. He can be extremely good but he can also be extremely bad at times. Keep Chill, for less money than Smith and work to get a shooter, James Jones would be primo. Heck, I’d offer Magette as well, they need some upfront scoring and 22 a game from him last year, he’s no slouch. Besides Joe, we have no one who can score on his own. James Jones would give us a good kickout guy and Magette would give us some relief in the front court. Marvin’s got to make it happen this year and early. If he doesn’t, they could look at trading him rather than deal with his contract.

By The Dark Karma

July 3, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

MANNYT, very astute. When did you figure it out? You know what I am referring to.

It amuses me greatly to hear some of the things that have come up. Several people, some more noted than others, have presented the idea that our players are not held in high regard around the league. Clearly this is not so. KIRKNGA asked why nine or ten teams were not lined up asking about one of our players. Eight teams have made contact about Childress. Perhaps this is an answer to your question, eh? I imagine that there are several more inquiring about Smith, but waiting to see how the PHiladelphia situation turns out.

Even more amusing is the idea some people staunchly believe that management wisely waited on Smith and allowed the so called market to put a figure to his value. Yet those same people are already beginning to complain that Smith will return and be overpaid. I do not believe I could laugh harder. One simply cannot have it both ways. What was expected? Management saw fit to let someone else set the market price, taking away a certain measure of control. Did some truly expect other teams to give the same or similar low ball offers to Smith? Truly amusing. Truly.

One wonders why there is still an argument about Smith’s worth. Once more, it is management that allowed this to unfold. For those who advocated that move, you are getting precisely what you asked for. He is worth every dollar he is offered if you wish to keep him. If not, management must figure out how to replace him. Make no mistake, his production must be replaced. His athletic ability, which is directly related to his productive ability, is next to impossible to replace.

One cannot blame Smith if he wants to move. Sure his current team can match any offer. But imagine if you could make the same amount of money working for two different companies. The one you currently work for has just re-hired your boss, whom you have no love for. You often times do not get to do the work you are best at, and cannot use the methods that make you most efficient. The other company offers you a more stable management system, a boss who is respected by those under him, and a chance to do what you do best and are most comfortable and efficient with. For most of us, there would be no difficulty in choice.

As more and more teams become interested in both of our restricted free agents, we have better chances of improving this team. If eight different teams have made contact about Childress, surely at least one or two have pieces that we can make use of. Draft picks are nothing to sniff at. At this current pace, and with the possibility of Smith not returning, we will be very active in the draft as it is. I wonder how many can see the chain reaction that comes from certain decisions made prior to this point?

By The Dark Karma

July 3, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

ANDO, be well. A rushed recovery is also not in order, but rather enjoy these slower moments. Else you may find yourself repeating the general process in different ways for different reasons. Heal and enjoy family. Know that we await you and your usual colorful commentary. Your seat is saved. The fibbers’ saloon is incomplete in your absence, yes?

By SB

July 3, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

Where are you guy’s getting these numbers for Smith? Is their a site reporting what Philly is offering?

By Ken Strickland

July 3, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

Tell me what we think of this suggestion.

(1)Resign both Joshes

(2)Move Smoove to SF and Horford to PF.

(3)Move Zaza to starting C and Marvin to the bench.

Marvin gives us that big, versatile shooter off the bench. Horford and Zaza gives us very good outside shooting and could compensate for losing Marvin’s outside shooting. They would open up the inside for Smoove, who’d give us strong inside OFF that would probably require a double team, since very few SF’s could control him DEF.

When Bibby and Zaza’s contracts expire, we can afford to sign what we need through FA. We can use Speedy’s contract to resign JJ when he becomes a FA. Just a thought designed to hold on to our core players.

By HB Ando

July 3, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this

Ken, that idea will not work. And the reason is exactly the basis for all my previous suggestions that the team find a big who’s most comfortable facing the basket and shooting from 17 feet on out. They don’t need to be a great rebounder, but would need to be solid enough, defending the low block, to not be a liability when on the floor. Neither Al nor Smith has shown themselves to be a consistent outside shooting threat. The starting line up you suggest (as I have mentioned several times before, with Zaza, or anyone like him plugged into his role) is that we’d have the worst shooting front line in the league. This is why I liked guys like Love and Koufos in the recent draft, and why I think, despite his lack of rebounding, at this early stage in his career, that a Bargnani would work. If Smith is your 3 and Horford is your 4 (and I like that idea very much), you MUST have a five who can keep defenses honest facing the basket, which would keep teams from packing the lane against Horford’s post ups, and sagging against Smith’s drives. I think you’d see a mmodified triangle and 2, with JJ being overplayed on the wing, to limit his open looks at the 3, which would bait him into attacking an already over loaded paint area.

Gotta have a shooter at the 5, to truly optimize the Smith/Horford as 3 and 4 of the future (again, this is rehashing stuff I’ve said many, many months ago).

With Oneal going to join Bosh in Toronto, Bargnani may be the odd man out. But they could benefit from a legitimate, multi-skilled 3. I’d love to see the two teams swap Marvin from Bargnani, but expect that a multi-player deal, including a sign-and-trade of Chillz, would be necessary. Bargnani can drain the 3, block shots, and attack the basket. He doesn’t like to rebound, and his mid-range game is weak. But he’d FIT with Horford and Smith very well, as their games would complement each other very well (and Horford and Smith would cover his rebounding defenciencies, in exchange for him covering for their poor outside shooting).

For all the ongoing discussion about Horford as a five, versus a four, one only has to look back at Barkley’s effusive praise of Horford, during the all-star weekend, as a potentially great power forward. And that issue is merely a repeat of conversations that started soon after Horford was drafted. Being talented enough to cover for our lack of a viable center, and being played out of position, and limiting his potential to be a great four, are two totally different issues.

By RealSquawk

July 3, 2008 6:59 PM | Link to this

HB ANDO

Bargnani can play the three right now so I don’t see Toronto swapping a front line that tall and talented for MArvin Williams nope not going to happen at least not in my opinion

COME ON GUYS WE COULD MAKE THE PLAYOFFS WITH MIKE BIBBY-JOE JOHNSON- MARVIN WILLIAMS- AL HORFORD- AND A LANE FILLING BIG!!!

By Mike is back

July 3, 2008 7:16 PM | Link to this

I hate to keep repeating what everyone has already said…so I’m on the sideline until we see some numbers. I still read everyone responses daily…BTW welcome back HB…I’m returning from some medical issues myself…spent time at Northside and Piedmont. I’ll still keep reading daily…cause Sekou and the guys crack me up…cause I love the Hawks…and cause this blogs is like therapy for me when I need a laugh.

SalimFan, being meaning to give you props for the Smoove block shots link…It was off the chainnnnnn.

MannyT you must be an accountant by trade Bro…I am always enlighten by your breakdown of actual and perceived value of RFAs, FAs, and S&T deals…hopefully Sund and BASG want drop the ball this time around.

Astro Joe, give it up brooooooo. Smoove left home and went to Oak Hill Academy his senior year in HS to prepare for the NBA…I don’t think Smoove will be that overwhelm…besides Philly plays the type of up-tempo basketball he craves. I think Philly’s style of play alone with a ridiculous front loaded contract will easily make Smoove forget about the City of Brotherly Love shortcoming…Smoove would likely do like most Professional Sports Players…live in one city and play in the other. The ATL is a magnet for PSPs of all sports, but most play in other cities.

Having said that I think Smoove wants to help put the ATL back on the map and erase the stigma of the Hawks being one of the door mats of the NBA. After all, he is a hometown guy. I think that will count for something…but if the BASG try to lowball him or Chill…they will loose.

Philly can let Smoove sign his name on the Liberty Bell for all I care, but show me the money. Obviously, they are going to make an offer in the range that the BASG can match…why else are they going all out…you would think that they courting LB, Koby, or DWade. When we signed Joe from Phoenix…we did one thing…show him the money…that was all the red carpet Joe needed.

I still think we resign Smoove…Philly will be reluctant to breakup their core in an S&T deal. I have a question for all of Smoove detractors…if Iggy game is suppose to be far superior to Smoove…why isn’t his name generating the type buzz Smoove is? Makes you go Hmmmmmmmmmm.

By Ramon

July 3, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this

Ando that sounds good to me. BUT do you truly think Old Man Woody would utilize that line up right and have Bargnani out on the perimeter?

By Mike is back

July 3, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this

MannyT, I like the Dream…My pumpkin is a huge WNBA fan. Once her AAU season is finished…we’re going to check out a couple of games. Ivory Ladder is a big disappointment for me…I thought she had more game than that. She is a shell of the player she was at NC.

By glw

July 3, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

HB Ando,

I agree with your points, playing Josh at SF would limit this team offensively, but therein lies the problem. You have Al Horford, who in theory would probaly be a better all around power forward than Josh Smith is. So do you overpay for him? I do love J-Smooves games, he more than any other player makes it fun to watch the Hawks again. I want to see him resign, but there is no way I let him leave for Philly unless I get at least Iguadola back. Any possibility we could do what Golden State does and offer Iggy a contract? Maybe he is feeling a little unloved in Philly and might be willing to sign a contract and then we work a deal where we agree to let them keep JSmoove and they agree to let us keep Iguadola? Would that be legal?

By The Dark Karma

July 3, 2008 8:36 PM | Link to this

RAMON a very good and fair question.

ASTRO JOE, your concern for Smith is palpable and amusing. Are you saying that Smith will fail if he leaves, or are you saying that he will not go because he is intimidated by big city lights and a bigger bank account? If not that, then what are you saying? If he succumbs to your points of pressure after leaving here for there, then what concern might it be of ours?

How much worse could it be than people constantly saying that he is a basketball neanderthal with overdeveloped athletic ability. One could argue that more than half of the league is exactly that. Those with less than average athletic ability do not make the league cut, and those with average or just better than average must have other skills in abundance just to make a roster. When your hometown fans where you grew up treat you in ways that have been illustrated on this blog, choosing to emphasize your negatives over your positives, then surely another place will offer no surprises.

By SalimFan

July 3, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this

JK I’ve been out the whole day heh. But honestly I never thought Josh was worth more than 12. That was my prediction around March. So to be hearing 13+ being thrown around is a suprise.

Especially when you consider that so much of Smith’s succes was based on Bibby’s actions(His aboulity to create). When he was on smith’s numbers shot up. If that were Avery Johnson or Tyronne Lue in the playoffs instead of Bibby, smith wouldn’t have gotten those lobs and we probably would have lost those home games.

Is he worth the money?? Yes and No. Compared to Joe Johnson and Bibby(of old) No. But he’s a stat sheet stuffer, Changes the game with his defense, his dunks energise the team as well as the crowd, he keeps improving, and he’s ONLY 22. In that regard, yes he’s defenetly worth whatever it takes to keep him here.

Rasheed Wallace is (34), and some people want to trade him for smith (22)??? That makes no sense considering he’s twelve years younger and will continue to improve and be productive for years to come.

By doc

July 3, 2008 8:42 PM | Link to this

hey ando. stay cool bro. welcome back for however long it will be. always appreciate what you bring.

By The Dark Karma

July 3, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this

For some good reading.

FoxNews.com in the Sports section, a column by Jason Whitlock on Rush Limbaugh. Interesting reading indeed, and a perspective that is likely to be as controversial as the subject discussed. All the same, it is good reading for a moment or two.

By kirknga

July 3, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

The Dark Karma

Yes I did indeed ask why more teams hadn’t shown an interest in Smith. It is a fair question I think given that many here believe him to be an A-list player. I would think that we would hear about the interest of at least as many teams, if not more, as Childress.

I mentioned nothing about Childress why his name came up in a point solely about Smith.

One wonders why there is still an argument about Smith’s worth?

Maybe because the Hawks only won 37 games? So at the very least we can say that he wasn’t so talented as to be able to lead his team to a winning record.

Maybe because it is possible to be a Hawks fan and not see Smith as a savior.

I have said I have no issue with the Hawks resigning both players, especially Chills.

Remember it was Smith who turned down the contract offer. People are pretending that the Hawks have made no offer to Smith at all. He wanted more money and the Hawks are saying ok, go see what you can get and we’ll match it. They didn’t panic and give him a max contract. That’s smart.

The bottom line really is that the Hawks put an improved team on the court come next season. How they do it doesn’t really matter. It’s about wins and losses.

By Crazy Diamond

July 3, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

I have no faith in the Atlanta Spirit braintrust. As someone so eloquently said here before: We are so screwed!

By Astro Joe

July 3, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this

Dark Karma, not a big Whitlock fan. What I am saying is that some guys do better going to college in town and some can make it out of town. Some guys thrive in the spotlight, others crumble. Some 22 year-olds are more mature than other 22 year-olds. In summary, going to Philly for an 8% raise may not be worth the better bagels and high expectations.

By The Dark Karma

July 3, 2008 9:23 PM | Link to this

There is and has always been a difference between a savior and a person who is needed. I have difficulty finding where on this blog or even the last ten, where anybody has named Smith as a savior of this franchise. If anything, this franchis HAS no savior. Ask why we only won thirty-seven games when mentioning Smith? Ask also then why this happened with a talented player like Joe Johnson? Is this not also a valid question? The answer is obvious. The young players like Smith, Williams, and Horford were the best on the team, and that by an uncomfortably wide margin. Winning thirty-seven games cannot be a fault of any one player. Have we forgotten so soon the ineptitude of the head coach. Have we forgotten so soon the imbalance and flaws of this roster, the non-existent depth? This young team, missing identity, clear purpose, and leadership was not going to do better in the given situation. If one is to begin blame amongst the players, then at least start with the team captains. Of course, this does nothing for one’s argument against Smith.

The argument of a player’s worth is moot because it is determined by the desire of those who wish to either retain or acquire his services. Discontinue the idea that this is about the player’s actual production and performance figures alone. This has ceased to be so personal and matter-of-fact. How many players have been paid huge contracts due to the fact that they are viewed as an integral piece of a team? Was Rashard Lewis hailed as anyone’s savior? Will Baron Davis make the Los Angeles Clippers winners of next season’s Western Conference Finals? Is Elton Brand the true Messiah? Why argue a player’s intrinsic worth when it is clearly about to be determined for you, and with disregard to your personal opinion? That is the question I posed, and it is merely a rhetorical one.

And yet the glittering generalities continue from the same sources who ironically enough cannot seem to come up with thought-out and logical ideas of how to field a better team for the next season.

No one pretends that Smith wasn’t made an offer. No one thinks that Smith should have been signed to a maximum contract. Perhaps a smattering of the usual one-time-only posters have suggested such things, but I do not recall that being a prevailing argument here. That is an extreme-side glittering generality argument that no one has placed.

DOC mentioned many times over a year ago that Smith might be offered a contract in the range of sixty million or much more, perhaps in the seventy-million range. He was offered forty-five million. Perhaps he could have been had for fifty-five million or thereabouts. If he signs a contract for sixty-five or seventy million, a distinct possibility, then pray tell me how smart it is when he could have been had for less? Once more, the product holder is at the mercy of the market and his competitors. The competition will no doubt cause the original product holder to pay more money than is desirable, if the free agent player’s services are to be retained.

What is forgotten many times over is that THIS particular product holder is not in position to do such gambling. Losing Smith demands that value that helps the team become better actually be gained in return. I have yet to see a reasonable example of how this will be accomplished from those who continually cry about it being oh so possible. Not saying that it isn’t possible, but looking to see HOW. Within reason, of course.

Continually spouting that not giving Smith a max contract was smart is like saying that fish should stay in water for survival. Everyone knows it , and nobody is trying to argue it, so what merit does this statment have?

The bottom line really is that the Hawks put an improved team on the court come next season. How they do it doesn’t really matter. It’s about wins and losses.

I am inclined to agree. This statement stands all by itself. So then there is no need to contend with the opinions of others, right? Chuckle.

By The Dark Karma

July 3, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

ASTRO JOE, it is merely an interesting article to read. I am not familiar with Whitlock, and therefore do not carry an opinion of him. However, if one must be a fan of an author to gain anything from the reading of an piece of literary work, then one will not read very much at all.

Your premise on the subject of a possible Smith move is understood and reasonable. But as I intimated earlier, if he chooses this path, it is no longer our concern. As it is now, he is on a love-hate basis with the fans. The eight percent raise does not reflect upon the endorsement possibilities, but I am also not inclined to talk more of what financial gain is possible. Leave us not also forget that there are other advantages to his leaving. A better coach in my own opinion is one. Perhaps even better development and more opportunities to be schooled and work with better professionals. Instead of Olajuwon and Murphy, perhaps somebody closer to the mark of what he needs the most help on. And lastly, the chance to play a style of basketball that suits him more. And someone who appreciates what he can do on defense instead of only bemoaning his offensive tendencies, which would surely be better honed by someone who understands. Of course, the grass always looks greener on the other side. I would dare guess that for him, it might actually be. Possibilities, possibilities. At least you would no longer be concerned with overpaying. Should not that very thought alone please you?

By Dennis

July 3, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this

If the Hawks match both offers then financially thats it. They are over the cap paying luxury tax, and can’t do a thing this year, next year, and will likely lose Bibby for nothing. Its kinda like the shell game. Making a sign and trade deal with the Sixers makes the most sense, unless the team feels like they will win a title in the next 2 years. Way to big a jump to project. Hawk made this bed by not offering more cash last year. By making the Bibby deal. Get a #1 pick and a player and keep the core together with help for the future.

By Dennis

July 3, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

If the Hawks match both offers then financially thats it. They are over the cap paying luxury tax, and can’t do a thing this year, next year, and will likely lose Bibby for nothing. Its kinda like the shell game. Making a sign and trade deal with the Sixers makes the most sense, unless the team feels like they will win a title in the next 2 years. Way to big a jump to project. Hawk made this bed by not offering more cash last year. By making the Bibby deal. Get a #1 pick and a player and keep the core together with help for the future.

By The Dark Karma

July 3, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this

Interesting how events are unfolding in Chicago. Though the idea of Vinny Del Negro as an untested head coach was cause for perhaps some concern, it is readily apparent that his support base is quite good. Having added Bernie Bickerstaff and Del Harris as assistants, there is a lot of experience to draw on. Harris has has a winning percentage during his years as a head coach. Bickerstaff has remained under .500 but has also dealt with the Bobcats in their earliest years. Consider that the the assistant coaching jobs are less stressful and allow a person to concentrate more on the things that they are good at. Bickerstaff has dealt well with young players, and Harris can deal well with veterans.

Either would be superior fodder for interim coach if Del Negro ever fails miserably. Good to know that some teams know how to surround their head coach with good coaching and developing talent, or at least that which is decent and experienced. Our only hope here is the long-suffering Larry Drew.

By femhawkfan

July 3, 2008 10:07 PM | Link to this

I am not positive that Philly will offer Smoov a max contract. Teams typically offer max contracts to players that they believe will turn a franchise around. Smoov is definitely an awesome player, but I don’t think that he is THE player to turn an organization like the Sixers around. Additionally, I think the Sixers, like many teams in the NBA, wants some open space for the 2010 free agent class. With that being said I don’t think the Sixers will lay out all their cards on the table for Smoov and I think that the Hawks can afford to re-sign Smoov.

Also, the whole little red carpet welcome Smoov received is actually funny after thinking about it. It is like when a guy is pursuing a girl and that girl is dating someone else. To try to get the girl, the guy pulls out all the stops for her. The girl is really impressed by the guy and falls for all his tricks since she hasn’t been treated that way in awhile. The girl eventually gives in, leaves the guy she was previously with and starts dating the new guy. However, once the guy has her, all of the special treatment goes away. The girl starts to realize that maybe this new guy isn’t really the sure thing. Hmmmmmm….think about it, people.

Also another reason why the Sixers little red carpet treatment wooed Smoov and his agents is because this is his first time being a free agent. Do you guys really think that the Clippers had to pull out the red carpet to get Baron Davis? NO!!! Granted Baron wanted to play in LA, but the Clippers didn’t need to do all of that extra stuff because Baron knows the business of the game. The Clippers got right down to business and offered him a contract. So if the Sixers are really serious about Smoov, it time for them to get down to business and offer the guy a deal.

By kirknga

July 3, 2008 10:15 PM | Link to this

The argument of a player’s worth is moot because it is determined by the desire of those who wish to either retain or acquire his services.

Yet you said:One wonders why there is still an argument about Smith’s worth.

If the point is indeed moot, why did you ask the question?

You said :Once more, it is management that allowed this to unfold.

How can that be when they offered a contract and he declined to sign it? Smith bares responsibility as well.

You said:Continually spouting that not giving Smith a max contract was smart is like saying that fish should stay in water for survival.

Well “this statement stands all by itself.”. If someone were to articulate..um uh..”spout”.. such a position then ridicule would surely be invited.

For one to continually do anything he must do it more than once? Can you point to anyone who has made the comment that not giving Smith a max contract was smart on numerous occasions?

I bet you can’t.

I know I’ve said more than once that I had no issue with the Hawks resigning both players. I never made mention of at what salary level.

I did say that I thought it was smart for the Hawks to let Smith see what he could get on the open market.

Why? Because he declined their contract offer. What if(and we don’t know) he did ask for a max contract and the Hawks wanted to keep him but don’t believe him to be the max(or they believe no other team would offer him that)? It is smart then to let him go see if he can get it because you have the right of first refusal and can keep him.Without that right of refusual it is not a smart move.

You said:I have yet to see a reasonable example of how this will be accomplished from those who continually cry about it being oh so possible.

Then you haven’t been reading closely enough. There have been those who have suggested different scenarios including sign and trade deals and free agent signing. Those proposals have been dismissed by those who believe the Hawks cannot improve on 37 wins without Smith! They have been made nevertheless.

You said:*I am inclined to agree. *

I take you at your word. So now I’m curious, if you agree it’s about winning, then why have you not offered some reasonable examples of a post-Smith Hawks yourself?

The tenor of your comments have been about Smith and what is wrong with people who believe differently than you. If you believe it’s about winning, then shouldn’t winning be the focus of your comments and not what other people think about Smith or management?

Like I said, I take you at your word and so I look forward to some constructive, rather than critical, comments about the team and winning.

By MannyT

July 3, 2008 10:18 PM | Link to this

Mike I just really like numbers and analysis. No one ever paid me to be an accountant, but I get a kick out of shows like Numb3rs.

I can get into keeping an eye on the Dream for the summer. They had quite a turnout of noteworthy folks for the home opener. Remember Latta was a backup when we picked her in the expansion draft. She needs some time to develop her game.

Dark Karma I took me a day or so to see what was not on the blog as well as what was! Sometimes puzzles are easier to solve that way.

On this whole Smith value thing—he turned out to be the best fit of the RFA with a team that has cap space. He hits the payday contract lottery. On the flip side, guys like Ben Gordon will probably get less this summer than he expected. It’s like that, and that’s the way it is…

Getting past 40 wins has less to do with Smith staying and more to do with Woody adapting to his team or Sund getting players that fit his style. Like doc mentioned the other day, Mo Cheeks has a very similar team and does much better with it.

I hope that all this faith in playing 3 strong post season games translates into real improvement across 82 games next season.

PAIN setup a home here 9 years ago. I hope we can foreclose on it soon and send it walking.

By The Dark karma

July 3, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

Precisely DENNIS.

A poker game, and I too fear that the proverbial fish was exposed last summer.

Philadelphia seeks to add to their capability, not subtract from it. Neither Iguodala nor Dalembert is likely to be let go. So who then, makes a good trade from that team for Smith?

Should the offer be matched, who then would be also willing to pay Smith the offered money in a sign and trade if a sign and trade is the best way to go forward? And then who would be gained in return? A question no one can know an answer to until the first offer is made to begin with.

By doc

July 3, 2008 10:26 PM | Link to this

TDK thanks for the heads up on the whitlock opinion and it was an interesting perspective. personally i find him to be pretty real though i am disturbed he hangs out at fox. heh heh, guess you gotta make a living and go to the highest or only bidder, free agency at its finest.

By The Dark karma

July 3, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this

The max contract is tasteless bait and not even the subject of an existing argument. Do not dignify it as relevant.

Though the red carpet treament analysis is most likey very accurate, what will be said if an offer comes tomorrow? And yet, one feels compelled to acknowledge that Elton Brand’s services are probably the largest reason to not throw a contract at Smith so quickly. But then, he is contemplating a contract from Golden State right now that is both panic driven and likely more lucrative than any other offer. Perhaps Golden State’s panic is to be taken advantage of by us in other areas. O’Bryant and Pietrus would fit. Another, more experienced post player would be needed as well, though.

I am most inclined to agree that a very concerted effort needs to be made to shore up the bench and strengthen the roster overall. Post player and capable shooters mus be pursued with alacrity. The time for standing pat is well past, and a habit that must be shed quickly. The restricted free agent situation has both a process and a timetable.

By kirknga

July 3, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this

Getting past 40 wins has less to do with Smith staying and more to do with Woody adapting to his team or Sund getting players that fit his style.

Now that is good stuff. Would it offend you if I simply said “True”? :)

What is Woodson’s style by the way? It’s hard to tell especially when he refuses to appropriately use Salim and Solomon.

Given that the Hawks won 37 games, I wonder if 40 wins (Smith or no Smith)would be enough to bring Woodson back?

By kirknga

July 3, 2008 10:56 PM | Link to this

….one feels compelled to acknowledge that Elton Brand’s services are probably the largest reason to not throw a contract at Smith so quickly….

I agree, yet strangely the Hawks are not mentioned as a possible suitor for any other free agents.

This leads me to believe that they believe they will improve by keeping their own free agents as the priority. If this is true, I hope Salim is included, but that might not be feasible given the cap restraints.

I believe Sund must show perspicacity in who he selects to stock the team in addition to the alacrity of the pursuit.

As some have mentioned, I think Iggy could help the Hawks. The Sixers are likely going to have to clear more cap space to attract the players they are said to have an interest.

Some have also mentioned Kwame Brown as a post player, but as starter or back up? Are their issues of effort where he is concerned?

Sekou mentioned James Jones and Jarvis Hayes, both would be great additions for the bench.

If the Hawks resign their players, could Williams then be the trade bait rather than say Bibby?

By The Dark karma

July 3, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this

KIRKNGA, I will spell it out for you. I wonder why there is still an argument about Smith’s worth when the argument itself is MOOT based on the idea that his collective “worth” is yet to be determined, and will be most likely determined by a direct competitor. The two statements were collaborative. There was no question or you would have seen a question mark at the end of the sentence.

You place a losing bet. Had you been around this blog for more than three years as I have, you would have seen numerous mentions of how smart is was to not give Smith a max contract. If you so feel inclined to make a completely futile attempt to prove this wrong, then you may delve into the archives and begin with the blogs that occurred around the time Smith was offered a contract for forty-five million dollars. When you have completed this task, you can search the archives for posts by my real name, which I will reveal to you as well as those regular posters who have not caught on to who I am: Ray is my name. You can search all the way back through the year 2005 if you choose.

Once you have done this, you will see countless posts where I have ardently supported Smith’s talents, tirelessly complained about his negatives throughout the seasons, and repeatedly stated that if trading him makes the team better or gives us better fitting pieces, then this is what must be done. I discussed the merits of trading him to Golden State for Andris Biedrins. I will not go into the number and specific trade ideas that I have generated, agreed with, or otherwise discussed because I feel no need to repeat myself yet AGAIN.

The key word in trade proposals is REASONABLE. This would mean deals that teams are likely to do or deals that are likely to make this team better. Philadelphia is not likely stupid enough to trade a a good center in Dalembert or its best player in Iguodala for Smith, who is not our best player. How is this reasonable? By the same vein, who outside of these two players on the Philadelphia roster could Smith be traded for that makes the Hawks better? Yes, that was a question.

My dear fellow, it is YOU who has come here championing your own cause as you call it “going against the grain.” So then is your purpose to provide a solid line of thinking alternative to that with which you choose to contend? Or merely to stir the pot? I do recall you repeating the quoted and aforementioned mantra, but I wished to know what solid thoughts or ideas YOU have had on how to improve the roster in Smith’s absence. Pardon me if I forgot any that you made while wading through the mire of contentious arguments.

Finally, it seems that you have forgotten or chosen to ignore one small thing. The Atlanta Spirit Group has been running the organization as cheaply as possible for the last four years. It is not a matter of salary cap for them as much as it is just how much money they are willing to part with to field a competitive team. This is ultimately who I am referring to when I say management. While I must agree that some of this situation is Smith’s doing, management holds the most cards, or did once. If Smith’s initial offer was reported for the public to know, then why not any offers after that? Perhaps because none were made. The choice was made then, and it will cost now. The organization is bleeding money and has been for quite some time. They cannot afford to play such a poker game as this. But then, you likely believe in them far more than I do, despite evidence to the contrary.

Why should I make trade proposals now that management is allowing others to court Smith, all the while saying that they will match any offer he gets?

By HB Ando

July 3, 2008 11:14 PM | Link to this

Squawk, your comment seemingly supports the possibility that Bargnani will be the odd man out. Bargnani cannot DEFEND the 3, as a front line of 3 7-footers will be far too immobile to cover even an average swing man in the NBA. The limitations of a too big” front line were highlighted by Odom playing the 3 for the Lakers, WITHOUT a healthy Bynum returning to the lineup. It’s the main mismatch that led to Paul Pierce winning the series MVP in the finals.

Playing Bosh and O’neal together will require a very athletic, on-the-ball defender, in Toronto, to make up for playing 2 seven-footers together. I think Childress would be more appealling to Toronto, in such a scenario.

I think the same issue, with the Lakers committing to Gasol and Bynum on their frontline, will lead to a trade of Odom (which has been discussed at length since the end of the Finals).

It think this is a great time to go after Bargnani. And I think it takes a team like the Hawks, where the 2 players Bargnani would join, on the front line, let him off the hook for his inconsistent rebounding efforts. Bargnani can defend 5’s and shoot 3’s like a 3. That’s the optimal player for the Hawks.

I’ll point to the same line up that I’ve used many months ago, as the front line you have to emulate to build around Horford and Smith. And that’s Utah, where Smith is a better version of AK, and we can hope that Horford develops into a better defending version of the offensive machine that Boozer has become. We need an Okur. Given that our two is far better than Utah’s (though his overall value is arguably a wash with Williams’ point guard role), it’s not a stretch to replace Bibby (again, more for his onerous salary than his rapidly declining athleticism) with a quicker, cheaper version (can it be Law, or will it need to be a player we could obtain via a Bibby trade, or in another summer transaction).

Then it’s as simple as getting our own version of Okur, and you’ve got a compelling replication of the roster dynamic that Utah has built, to very satisfying results.

But if you play a Zaza, or any banger of a center, with a limited face up game, with Smith and Horford, you’re offense will remain severely limited, and a nightly target for teams packing in a zone, and only seeking to limit JJ’s open looks from the perimeter.

And for all this talk about Bibby’s value here, and correct me if I’m off by a few games, I think the Hawks were 4-5 games under .500 after Bibby arrived, which is right in line with their overall, sub-.500 performance last season.

Given the way Boston improved with each successive playoff round, I’m still strongly inclined to believe that the Celtics were guilty of giving the Hawks no respect at all, and that the fact the series went 7 games was less about the emergence of the Hawks as a legitimate contender, and more about the Celtics looking ahead.

Can’t objectify that opinion any more than someone could objectify the counter opinion supporting the Hawks’ performance as legitimizing, so it’s an unwinnable argument.

I believe that trading Bibby for payroll relief, and acquiring a viable, younger, more athletic, replacement PG, would go a long way in generating some confidence that the Hawks’ front office has a solid grasp on what needs to be done. And such a deal is arguably the only way we can expect to keep both Josh’s.

But if Sund is serious about keeping the top-8 of this teams’ rotation together, then I have no problem in confidently believing that they intend nothing more than a big spin job, going into next season, and that they have no real plan to take this team to another level.

By Californadelphia

July 3, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this

Sorry, Atlanta. Philadelphia steals your best player…what’s his name…J-SMOOVE…and then the Phillies sweep the Braves at Turner Field (again). Tough day in the ATL, huh?

By SalimFan

July 3, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this

Mike is back, Preciate tha love. Hope all is well and you get better soon.

Maaan this Brings back memories. If Matt Ryan isn’t anywhere CLOSE to this the Falcons are gona get Creamed…….he is too…….Who’s gonna defend him, Vick bareley had any protection so what are they gonna do now (Ryans not the most moble guy)??? Somebody might wanna have a hospital bed reserved for Matt Ryan at all times lol. I will say he was my favorite QB to watch as far as College football was concerned this past season.

By kirknga

July 3, 2008 11:55 PM | Link to this

Ah, I see, it is the critical angle you get off on, you like categorizing, defining, and critizing,.

My dear fellow, it is YOU who has come here championing your own cause as you call it “going against the grain.”

Isn’t this what you are doing as well? Isn’t that the point of anyone who makes a comment? There is no great insight there I’m afraid.

Finally, it seems that you have forgotten or chosen to ignore one small thing. The Atlanta Spirit Group has been running the organization as cheaply as possible for the last four years.

Again, my priority is how to win. So far the discussion has been primarily about Josh Smith, and to a lesser extent, Childress. So criticizing ASG wasn’t on my radar as anyone could tell from my statements. That you offer that now is just mere diversion.

I would just say that ASG did offer him a contract, now if you believe it was enough fine you can just say that, you don’t to cast aspersion upon someone to do that. Again no great insight.

I’m actually glad to have a basketball team and local ownership. Like the Braves, the Hawks have suffered from Ted’s miscalculations.

I will reveal to you as well as those regular posters who have not caught on to who I am: Ray is my name. You can search all the way back through the year 2005 if you choose.

So your name is Ray. Mine is Kirk.Thank you. But what does that have to do with winning. Ans why should I go searching anything when I already took your word that you hold Smith in high regard. Again, no insight, no relevance to the Hawks and winning ball games.

Why should I make trade proposals now that management is allowing others to court Smith, all the while saying that they will match any offer he gets?

Didn’t you say:**I am most inclined to agree that a very concerted effort needs to be made to shore up the bench and strengthen the roster overall. Post player and capable shooters mus be pursued with alacrity. The time for standing pat is well past, and a habit that must be shed quickly. The restricted free agent situation has both a process and a timetable.

If you believe your first statement why wouldn’t player acquisition not be a topic of discussion.

your purpose to provide a solid line of thinking alternative to that with which you choose to contend? Or merely to stir the pot? I do recall you repeating the quoted and aforementioned mantra, but I wished to know what solid thoughts or ideas YOU have had on how to improve the roster in Smith’s absence.

I don’t believe you. If this was true you could’ve just asked.

Don’t think that because I am not a frequent poster that I am somehow suspicious. I am a money paying Hawks fans since the days of Hubie when I was a small kid.

I have followed this blog since it’s inception. I think Sekou does an excellent job with a product that generates very little interest in the city right now. It saddens me that the Hawks have lost the goodwill and broadbased support they use to enjoy.

I know that there is like a royal circle of 10-15 people who are the dominate commenter’s here, I applaud the your efforts.

But this is a public blog and you guys shouldn’t take affront when someone wants to share their opinion, even when it differs from the received wisdom.

Like I said, if the Hawks want to sign Smith fine, if they don’t, that’s fine too. I just want to win. And so I’m about discussing how we win. Constructive dialogue , ok. Everything else is b.s.

By The Dark karma

July 4, 2008 12:11 AM | Link to this

Well now, KIRKNGA, you accuse me of criticism? Amusing considering the majority of the content in your posts. But we shall dispense with this.

I go back to where I first remember you posting on July first at two forty-nine p.m. three or four blogs ago. Having checked each and every post you made, I find your own contribution to how the team might become better by ejecting Smith limited to one suggestion. Trade Smith for a center. What an epiphany. What center, pray tell? Just any old center? I am curious who you have in mind.

Personally, I have continuously hashed over the idea of having a rugged, inside center as opposed to one who is adept at outside shooting. I believe that the latter fits much better if Smith is retained, as it will allow Horford to move to the power forward slot, while preventing the frontcourt from becoming a one-dimensional set. To put it simply, if Smith is NOT retained, then the best build is to have a large and rugged center in the low post. However, these are hard to come by, and so a large, tough power forward is an able substitute. Here I must repeat something I have always said: Detroit has been successful beyond measure with a similar setup.

However, if Smith is to be retained, then a frontcourt player with good outside shooting skills is a better fit, be it a center or power forward. But such has been, and will continue to be my opinion, as well as that of others.

One way to acquire such a player is to trade Childress to Toronto for Bargnani, which is something that ANDO has suggested, something we discussed on the phone just moments ago.

By Volman

July 4, 2008 12:18 AM | Link to this

Come on guys… I haven’t posted on here in a while and I see bickering!!

Can’t we all just get along??

How is everybody doing? I don’t know why we are all getting upset and worried!! We have to wait until July 9th I thought…don’t we?

I sure hope the Hawks can keep both Joshes or else trade Chill for someone that can HELP THIS TEAM NOW!

Make us proud Sund!

By Rocky Mountain Revue Game Schedule

July 4, 2008 12:24 AM | Link to this

Utah Jazz: 2008 Rocky Mountain Revue Published: July 2, 2008 What: NBA summer league At: Salt Lake Community College’s Lifetime Activities Center When: July 18-25 THE SCHEDULE

July 18 Dallas vs. Atlanta, 4:30 p.m. San Antonio vs. Utah, 7 p.m.

July 19 Iran vs. Dallas, 2:15 p.m. D-League All-Stars vs. San Antonio, 4:30 p.m. Atlanta vs. Utah, 7 p.m.

July 21 Dallas vs. San Antonio, noon New Jersey vs. Golden State, 2:15 p.m. D-League All-Stars vs. Atlanta, 4:30 p.m. Iran vs. Utah, 7 p.m.

July 22 Atlanta vs. San Antonio, 2:15 p.m. Dallas vs. Golden State, 4:30 p.m. New Jersey vs. Utah. 7 p.m.

July 24 D-League All-Stars vs. Golden State, 2:15 p.m. New Jersey vs. Dallas, 4:30 p.m. Atlanta vs. Utah, 7 p.m.

July 25 Golden State vs. Atlanta, 11 a.m. Dallas vs. Utah, 7 p.m.

By tyler

July 4, 2008 12:30 AM | Link to this

ill give u’s any lineup in the Nba but I want me Dre,Iggy,Young, Smoove, and Dalembert. God bless all the teams’ front court’s cuz ur not gonna score down low 2 much with Philly’s Fab Front Court.

By steve

July 4, 2008 12:32 AM | Link to this

COME ON SIXERSSS!!!!..pull it out n sign Smith, which i feel they will..if they do can u say championship???? i can see them parading down broad street already

By SalimFan

July 4, 2008 12:37 AM | Link to this

Volamn, Nice to see you back on the blogosphere. Just ingnore the bickering lol. That’s what I do………they’ll be friends by the time the next blog rolls around….Considering the fact that they are debating significant issues. They’re not just flaming one another with random thoughtless insults lol…..good stuff.

Some guys love sparring debates. I usually can’t motivate myself to engage in one unless it involves salim lol.

Dark Karma, Nice Ando refrence to help strengthen your case lol (now i’m a commentator lol)

Happy 4th!!!

By The Dark karma

July 4, 2008 12:42 AM | Link to this

KIRKNGA, I told you my name because that is the name I posted under for nearly four years until the last four blogs. If you seek to question my contribution of dialogue, then you can look back yourself and see just how much there has been. I am one of the 10-15 you speak of. That is all. It is nothing, as it is just a blog. Take it as you will. If you have been here since inception then you know my name.

As for your comments about there being a lack of great insight: Is this supposed to mean anything to me? I do not seek glory or praise, and certainly was not expecting it from you.

Amusing how you cast me as someone who gets off on the categorizing, defining, criticizing angle. Let us see, who was it that posted part of people’s statments and then labeled them true and false? Who has purposely and clearly labeled themselves as going against the grain of what was seen as the prevailing sentiment? Shall we then continue this conversation of pot and kettle?

I see now that we will likely never agree on anything having to do with ownership. Perhaps we had better not even delve into that subject.

As to winning, I have always wanted to, but seen little that is clearly pointing the team in that direction. However, I refuse to wear rose colored glasses and adopt a pollyanna attitude towards things. I want more. I want better.

By Volman

July 4, 2008 12:43 AM | Link to this

Don’t tell me Sixers fans are starting to trickle down to the AJC site to post on here?

Can it be?

By The Dark karma

July 4, 2008 12:45 AM | Link to this

VOLMAN, good to see you again.

SALIMFAN, I have difficulties giving up a debate. I can hold it as long as anyone else. However, I tire of posting as the Dark Karma and will go back to posting with my usual (and real name)of Ray. Cheers!

By HB Ando

July 4, 2008 12:49 AM | Link to this

Maybe I’m missing something, but can anyone explain to me how Arenas is worth $50 million MORE than Baron Davis? Injury risk? Maybe, before Arenas’ previous season.

The Wiz have Jamison and Arenas, for a combined $161 million, and, assuming Brand takes the $70 million/5 years, the Clips get Brand/Baron, with an extra year of Brand thrown in, for $26 million less. And that AFTER Arenas discounted his offer by $16 million, out of KINDNESS. For all the decades Sterling has reinforced his reputation as a bad owner, he’s just pulled off an image make over, within two short weeks this summer. Throwing in Eric Gordon, a much improved Kaman, and the exciting Al Thornton (one of about 20 small forwards in the NBA, emerging since Marvin was drafted, who represent the type of real potential that we were sold we would get from Marvin), and the Clips, if healthy, even with the likely loss of Maggette, are right back in the mix in the West.

There are SO many teams who have made drastic, positive strides, already, this summer, in improving their near-term potential, that Atlanta’s typical lethargy is even more glaring. I guess we should look for a glass-half-full scenario, regarding the draft, and be happy that we don’t have to struggle with another head-scratchingly moronic Billy Knight draft pick.

Remembering to put the “special” glasses on, every single time I think about the Hawks, is far too cumbersome. I think I need to get my corneas painted in a permanent rose color, if I am to engage in any ongoing participation on this Hawks blog.

Yeah, that’s the ticket (and about the only ticket I’d be willing to buy when it comes to the atlanta hawks this fall).

By ray

July 4, 2008 12:52 AM | Link to this

Somebody has started around here with the fireworks already….my dogs are probably going nuts at home….

Think I’ll drop the Dark Karma bit, but I had to see what it would be like as one of the Harbingers of Doom for a while…

Mykhalc, did ya catch all that?

Is it just me, or is Golden State in a full panic right now? You know, we could take advantage of that if we were smart. Just think: if they do manage to acquire Brand (hmmm…maybe, but a thin maybe) with that monster offer, then some guys are going to have to move. I would love to see Pietrus here as well as O’Bryant. Pietrus would strengthen the bench, and what’s more, I think he can be better than Marvin (due to Marvin’s largely non-aggressive nature). O’Bryant isn’t a solution at the 5, but he’d be a help, and would provide more size than Solomon coming from the bench. In fact, he and Solomon coming off the bench at the same time gives us more size when our starters have to sit, rather than thrusting Solomon in there without any help down low (he is a bit of a light weight you know).

And if Golden State doesn’t get Brand, they’ll be looking for another impact player. Hmmm..possibilities exist there as well.

By kirknga

July 4, 2008 12:59 AM | Link to this

Yawn

By ray

July 4, 2008 1:01 AM | Link to this

Kirknga, when I said this:

I am most inclined to agree that a very concerted effort needs to be made to shore up the bench and strengthen the roster overall. Post player and capable shooters mus be pursued with alacrity. The time for standing pat is well past, and a habit that must be shed quickly. The restricted free agent situation has both a process and a timetable.

What I mean is, we need to quit focusing solely on Smith and Childress and start making moves outside of our RFAs to strengthen the bench. Hello….eight teams have inquired about Childress alone, and with sign-and-trade involved. What if we can use Childress to acquire a good shooter or that low post presence to help Horford? Why wait sit around and wait for Philadelphia to make Josh a monster contract offer when re-signing him isn’t by far the only thing we need to improve this team? It seems to me that all we’re hearing is “we’ll match any offers that are made.”

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve said that I don’t buy into this “core of 8 players” that Sund and the ASG (whom you seem to think so highly of…) say exists. What core? We need a freakin’ bench! A bench that the coach our oh-so-smart management decided to re-sign will actually play!

Yeah, those guys are just brilliant. Re-sign a coach who didn’t play his bench last year and then say that we need to re-sign the majority of the same players. Brilliant. Oh, and then we’ll just sign whoever nobody wants from the summer league (as Sund seems to want to do, based on what we’ve heard from him). Yep, smart mangement.

Where’s my asbestos suit? Hell is not far away, and the handbasket is waiting…

By SalimFan

July 4, 2008 1:20 AM | Link to this

DARK RAY OF KARMA, You sly dog you…..I wasn’t fooled for a second (Feverisly checks old posts to see how I missed it)…..Really, I knew the WHLE time.

I should have figured. And there I was carrying the posting load thinking evryone was on vacation J/K

I actually thought it was ando for a second then I thought better. I knew it was a regular though.

Besides It’s nt my job to keep me informed WHAT DO I PAY YOU PEOPLE FOR?????

By Dousche Patrol 3000

July 4, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this

Boss……………..see what had happend was, we just knew that you knew already. Cause you’re the greatest.

By Dousche Patrol 3000

July 4, 2008 1:27 AM | Link to this

Exactly…what he said

……….I still get my raise Right???

By Dousche Protection Agency

July 4, 2008 1:34 AM | Link to this

Don’t Say it….pleease

By SalimFan

July 4, 2008 1:39 AM | Link to this

Hell Naw!!! No Raises for any of You!!!

Beside ya’ll still haven’t caught up with that Freaky Revrend due casey!!!!

I Think i’m gonna have to do it…..

By F* Patrol

July 4, 2008 1:42 AM | Link to this

Boss I just got back from vacation remember????

By McNasty

July 4, 2008 1:45 AM | Link to this

If you were dedicated you wouldn’t habe even been on vacation.

You’re all FIRED

Gimme those Badges, and I want that company car back….

By Dousche Protection Agency

July 4, 2008 1:51 AM | Link to this

Looks like it’s back to the Blog Crimes Unit for us……..Darnit, I really got better benefits here, they had a better dental plan…..and i’m due for a cleaning too. My health insurance is gonna go through the roof.

This is all yall’s fault…….shouda never woked with yall man.

By Dousche Patrol 3000

July 4, 2008 1:56 AM | Link to this

Don’t blame me……….I thought he knew cause I thought you told him.

By F* Patrol

July 4, 2008 1:57 AM | Link to this

………….yup….

By ray

July 4, 2008 2:01 AM | Link to this

SalimFan, sorry for making you shoulder the load alone, man. I’ll have to make it up to ya. If ever we meet at a Hawks game (assuming they’ll be worth going to in the future), I’ll owe ya a beer. I gotta quit saying that to people. I’ll end up buying for the whole blog….(feverishly checks blog to see who else I said that to..).

It appears I’m not the only one with schizophrenic intentions…er…habits…er…symptoms..

Uh, okay. We, I mean I am not really schizo. Crazy? Hell yeah. We sure are. I mean…I am.

By autoprt

July 4, 2008 2:02 AM | Link to this

the hawks are cursed and snakebitten….

By mykhalc

July 4, 2008 2:02 AM | Link to this

BIG RAY, we got 2 shows goin’ on now!!! HAWKS at theatre #1, a pathetic tale of ineptness!!! and GSW at theatre #2, a true NBA comedy!!!! what’s a guy named BRAND to do??? he’s probably sayin’, ‘sorry BARON, i know you came to LAC so we could roll but the GSW coin was just too much to ignore!!! actually i think they accidentally gave me some of your cash!!! ooppsss!!’

By McNasty

July 4, 2008 2:06 AM | Link to this

Ray, Sorry bout that….anyway SalimFan is indesposed at the moment Bwahahahahahahaha.

Anyway, Golden State is gonna get ROBBED, straight up. No one is gonna want to re-sign there with B-Diddy leaving town. Team are gonna raid them of everyone.

This is perfect. They need a SCORING point so my boy salim can just slide right in and takeover.

By ray

July 4, 2008 2:12 AM | Link to this

What? Who, us? I didn’t know the DPA paid better than the BCU. Daaaaaamn! Guess we need to do a company survey and see if we can get a committee together so we can meet about creating a committee to support the idea of a committee that cares about the committee that’s supposed to meet and talk about the forming of a committee that is committed to better worker’s wages. So, who volunteers to be part of the committee? Oh wait, we have to form a committee first so that we can have a meeting about having volunteers for the aforementioned committee.

Looks like we wore ol’ Kirk out. Must be past his bedtime. Poor fella.

Guess I’ll clock out too. See ya later, DPA. Gotta head back to the BCU for debriefing. Wait, that didn’t sound right…

By ray

July 4, 2008 2:20 AM | Link to this

You could be right.

Meanwhile,

For all those concerned about overpaying for Josh Smith: at least you’re not a Wizards fan (sorry RichBrave). They’re signing him to a contract for $111 million. This for a player whose team played better without him. Ha! Say what you want about Smith (and right you may be) but this current team would’ve never done that well without Smith, and he will only get a fraction of what Arenas is getting. Yes, it could be worse.

Am I saying pay Josh whatever he wants? NO!! I’m just saying that other teams are obviously reinventing the idea of overspending with a player who isn’t going to get better (unless he learns to actually make his teammates better), in comparison to paying more than we’d initially like for a player who is going to get better.

Not to mention….who’s the healthier of the two? Duh!

By SalimFan

July 4, 2008 2:21 AM | Link to this

What??? Free Beer??? Suddenly i’m not indesposed anymore.

Lol Ray, don’t worry I won’t hold you to that heh.

Yeah, you’re gonna have a bunch of IOU’s the next time you go to a game lol.

By kirnga???

July 4, 2008 2:28 AM | Link to this

Based on your comments, how much money is JJ worth? Since he is the star player of this team. If JS is responsible for 37 wins for this team, what is JJ responsible for? This guy is supposed to be the captain but says they need veteran leadership, Bibby is the highest paid player on the team and was terrible in the playoffs. There is a pattern here you guys are very selective with your complaints. If that is what you believe about Smith so be it. I would like to know what are these other guys responsible for on this TEAM. I am really interested in hearing your response.

By SalimFan

July 4, 2008 2:33 AM | Link to this

LOL, Yeah Kirk’s not a “Professional”.

I’ll get started on that committe…….Wait were’s my voulenteers who formed the committee so that we can have a meeting about the committee????? Is anyone committed to anything these days???

By SalimFan

July 4, 2008 2:46 AM | Link to this

Honestly, Thinking of GILBO and his GIMPY knee makes me feel A LOT batter about Bibby. At least he makes his Teammates BETTER. Even though his offense was off this past season.

This being the final year of his contract, the fact that he’ll be healthy, We’ll have him for a FULL year, not to mention training camp……..We’ll be alright next season.

He’s defenetly going to come into training camp in top shape. He’ll be dedicated. He wants that big FINAL CONTRACT. And we get to reap the benefits.

….And yes Washington made a mistake, I’m suprised Stephen A. Smith wasn’t harder on the wiz for that move.

By hb

July 4, 2008 3:20 AM | Link to this

a sixer fan wrote: That front office pulled off one of the best trades last year in getting Bibby. They drafted one of the best picks that was in contention for ROY. Their team went to the playoffs and took the champs to 7 games. If that’s a front office in turmoil we better hope they don’t get their xhit together. new for someone to give us praise like this

By ray

July 4, 2008 6:53 AM | Link to this

You know, I asked the same damn question. If Smoove is to be held accountable for those 37 wins, how about the team captains? But I’m not looking for much of a response there, it would be damaging to the opposing viewpoint. And no, this is not another Smoove endorsement, just a rebuttal. And probably a wasted of typed words….

By doc

July 4, 2008 6:54 AM | Link to this

perspicacity
1548, from M.Fr. perspicacité (15c.), from L.L. perspicacitas “sharp-sightedness, discernment,” from L. perspicax “sharp-sighted,” from perspicere “look through”

hmmmm nice word, it isnt just because you choose a new word doesnt mean it is an original thought or even a new insight just maybe a greater degree of pomposity to assume it is so. i have said many times over this is the point of sund to discern the route to take or that his perspective has to be right on. not too original but in agreement just the same and i like that even if it wasnt your desire to be so ageeable.

myk man, feeling a bit trapped or just amused? i am a bit jealous as you have two channels to watch in the daily soaps of the nba. you know that is a good analogy and maybe one our friend ando should explore. as he returned he came back to the theme of nothing new here. somehow he thinks the ideas here should be novel and intriguing each time he comes here. when has a soap ever been like that? you can always come back in say a year and nothing may have changed except a character may have died but you still have to stay tuned because for dramatic pause that same character may be brought back to life. it is also like a guy staring at a plastic boob and pretending to think there is something different about it because there is a different face attached. ultimately, we all have to look for greater subtleties in life even within the blog to keep it intriguing enough to come back it just doesnt cost a buck for a look or a smile. i guess that is perspicacity, too.

good luck on keeping yours myk especially on the left coast. heh heh

good morning ando and here is to your health and your complete recovery. stay on the path bro.

By ToeKnee

July 4, 2008 8:32 AM | Link to this

What happened to loyalty???

Ok, I understand that as of this second, no offer sheets have been signed, and I understand that the Hawks sent the Joshes off into the woods to find offers on their own, but if they do SIGN said offer sheet, I mean seriously, what happened to the loyalty??
What should happen, is that the Joshes will get huge offers from other teams, then come back and meet the Hawks somewhere in the middle. Say what you will about “fractured ownership” blah blah blah, WE STUCK BY THESE GUYS THROUGH A 13 WIN SEASON!! we have been there for them, and now they’re just gonna bolt at the first sign of a few extra dollars??? If you want it take it, cuz i dont want ya! they should show some loyalty to the franchise that has drafted, developed, and stuck by them all these years

what say you, men??

By Astro Joe

July 4, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

Happy Birthday Uncle Sam!

By Ken Strickland

July 4, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

ANDO-welcome back my friend. It seems you and I have come full circle. Before the beginning of last season, I remember you stating how SF, not PF, was Smoove’s natural position. And, I challenged that assessment by saying he wasn’t a good enough outside shooter to play the position effectively. Now I’m advocating moving him to SF and you’re stressing his lack of outside shooting. Will wonders ever cease.

My reasons for changing my assessment of his ability to play the position are as follows”

(1)Horford has shown an ability to be an effective open jump shooter. He’s not a prolific shooter by any stretch of the imagination, but he’s demonstrated he can be effective.

(2)Horford’s shooting ability and the addition of Bibby makes having a prolific outside shooting SF less of a necessity.

(3)Zaza is an excellent outside shooter, especially for a BIG, and would help compensate.

(4)I believe Smoove would overmatch the majority of the SF’s in the league inside with his size, strength, athleticism(jumping ability) and newly acquired inside moves.

(5)History has shown that we can expect Smoove to work hard on improving his gm, especially his outside shooting and ballhandling.

The lineup I proposed would be very capable of spreading the DEF. Four of the starters(Zaza, Horford, Bibby and JJ) would be capable of consistently hitting open jumpshots. Three of the starters(JJ, Bibby and Smoove)would have 3pt range. We definitely wouldn’t get outrebounded very often and we wouldn’t lose anything DEF.

This arrangement would give us the shooter off the bench we need(Marvin) and allows us to resign both Joshes. It also give us options after this season(with Bibby and Zaza’s $18M worth of expiring contracts), allows us to resign JJ(Speedy’s contract expires the same yr) and places certain players in positions for which they are better suited(Horford @ PF, Smoove overmatching SF’s inside and Zaza starting).

It’s not ideal, I admit, but it works financially and player wise, both shortterm and longterm. BRING IT ON.

Oh, one more thing.

SALIM FAN-your last post raised a question in my mind. HOW MUCH DID THE INJURIES TO BIBBY’S WRIST AND FOOT, PLUS FATIGUE(DUE WOODSON’S REFUSAL TO ALLOW HIM SUFFICIENT REST AND RECOVERY TIME) AFFECT HIS OVERALL PLAY DURING THE SEASON, ESPECIALLY THE PLAYOFFS? He certainly didn’t have ballhandling and quickness issues prior to sustaining his injuries and coming to Atlanta. We just might see a healthy, and a much better Bibby this season.

By doc

July 4, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

toe knee shouldnt the franchise that used them to offer such a paltry product stand by them all the way and give them what their market price should be?

hornets didnt wait to get their guy. remember how many folks said next year when bibby leaves we should get paul? seems like we cant because their franchise and the player came up with a legitimate offer to how he wold look to the rest of the league. wasnt there but if the hawks werent willing to sign smith last year for 11 to 12 mil to try and save money or play the game a bit then if they lose the game it should be their fault not smith’s.

loyalty doesnt even exist in the armed forces anymore, just ask the marines who were told they were coming back from afganistan and now are staying because their bosses underestimated the resistance seen in the late 70’s. foolish to think they could re-write history.

happy independence day all!

By HB Ando

July 4, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

Ken, you’ve kind of amalgamated my opinion, with an uneven representation of my thoughts regarding Smith’s role, from last summers’ conversations. While I have, accurately, maintained (as have others) that Smith’s outside shooting, especially from behind the arc, is clearly substandard for a teams’ small forward, what I did say, was if Marvin and Josh were going to be your “tandem” forwards of the future (and this goes back at least another full year, coversationally), Josh’s rebounding, shot blocking and overall athelticism, made him more likely, between him and Marvin, to assume most of the PF’s duties.

But, in acquiring Horford, who’s optimal position is the PF, we now have 3 (four if you view Childress as a 3, not a 2, which I must do, given that, in my book, you can’t be a shooting guard if you don’t possess a basic jump shot), players who are most suited for two positions (3 and the 4).

I’m not going to rehash Horford as a 4 versus Horford as a 5, as I’ve outlined that issue ad naseum.

What I will say about Smith as a 3 is that it’s the only position for him, if you believe that you do Horford, and the potential of the Hawks, a huge disservice, if he is forced to play major minutes defending opposing centers next year.

This issue comes full circle, as you call it, with type of frontline player we need to add, should Smith and Horford remain as the cornerstones of our frontline. The “center” I’m describing (and in Bargnani’s case, this “center” is as much of a hybrid as Smith is as a “small forward”.

Individually, Smith’s limitations as an outside shooter make him a flawed 3. But that is off-set by his freakish athleticism, and unprecented shotblocking, at that position.

Likewise, Bargnani is flawed as either a 3 or a 5. He doesn’t rebound well enough to be a center (without a supporting cast to cover for that lack of production; like he would have here, playing next to Josh and Al). So he shoots like a 3, and he rebounds like a 3. But he’s too slow to defend 3’s. He CAN defend the post, and block shots, like a five, and is a tremendous outside threat.

I think the idea of playing these 3 together would be the best way to blend their collective strengths and weaknesses, with the end result, hopefully, similar to the front line at Utah (Where Boozer isn’t a good defender or shot blocker, and Okur is slow, but AK covers their production shortfall with his defense and shot blocking. But Okur and Boozer are both great shooters, making up for AK’s glaring weakness in that category).

I’ve been pounding the issue of Billy’s “imbalanced roster” since Marvin’s rookie year. I think this offering is the best I can do in defining the details of that problem, and highlighting what I think is the best way to optimize a long-term future, front line, built around Al and Josh as your forwards. Going forward, I believe that payroll limitations, resulting from an underfunded ownership group, will necessitate that either Chidress or Marvin will be moving on in the very near future (and possibly both). When you comine the financial angle, with the reality that with no draft picks and no realistic chance of addressing the need for such a compementary big man via free agency, both Josh and/or Marvin are also our best “assets” for such an acquisition.

Keeping the core 8, for upwards of $67 million, when that 8 still lacks such a necessary compliment on the front line (Ken, you and I are just going to have to disagree on Zaza’s skill set, as a shooter, filling that role; and that point doesn’t even take into account the fact that Woody and Zaza can’t get along, and that Zaza is clearly not in good standing with his teammates, from a chemistry standpoint. Woody’s extension should stimulate the end of the Zaza era in Atlanta, as he’s clearly of greater value to a team that will use him and take advantage of what skills he does have), when that core 8 backed into an 8th seed, with a flawed roster construction, and a sub-.500 record, is a truly disheartening prospect, should Sund and the ASG follow through on that intention.

At least 4 teams that didn’t make the playoffs in the East, will end up with a better record that the Hawks next year, should we stand pat, and simply keep the 2 Josh’s. Feel free to hold me to that prediction. I’m open to putting money on that opiniond.

By doc

July 4, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

this might interest you guys:

http://www.koreus.com/video/telephone-portable-mais-popcorn.html

By Matt

July 4, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

I gotta agree with Ken about Bibby - I’ve been saying the same thing for awhile. It’s amusing to me that people around here still don’t seem to get that Bibby was playing hurt the entire time he was with the Hawks. When you have tape on a finger on your dominant hand - especially your thumb - there’s no way you’re handling the ball like you normally do, and your shot is going to be off the mark more often than normal.

I agree with our Fearless Leader that Bibby is one of the 10 best PGs in the league when healthy. He’s a very smart PG who adjusts his game to the teammates he has - at the turn of the decade, he was a passing PG on teams that had more effective scorers than he. He shot more when the Kings stripped down and left him as the biggest scoring threat. He then came to Atlanta and made himself a pass-first PG again so that JJ could get in his shots.

It’s amazing and amusing that people think he’s a bust because he was a mediocre PG during the last weeks of the season, somehow forgetting that was only because Woodson was playing him 40+ minutes every single night while he was injured. He never got a chance to recover to 100%, and it showed.

A healthy Bibby is more than a serviceable point guard. He finally fills our need at PG. Trading him now and letting Acie take over would spell disaster for the coming year.

By Matt

July 4, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

Doc,

The Hornets gave a max contract to a guy who just finished 2nd in MVP voting. I’m sorry, but that’s just a no-brainer. It was obvious what kind of contract offer should have been made to CP3. That is most certainly not true of Smoove. You won’t find anyone who will dispute that Paul deserves a max-and-then-some contract, whereas you’ll find plenty of people disputing whether Smoove - who is not and will never be the best the player on the team - is worth close to max money. The discussion on this blog and the mixed (to be polite) pre-season scouting reports on ESPN and CNNSI illustrate that point.

Every GM in the league would pay max money to get Paul if they were to be the Hornets GM for a day. I promise you that the offers to Smoove last summer would have been far more varied had other GMs switched place with Billy for a day - with or without the ASG cost constraints.

By MannyT

July 4, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

doc you have participated in a very effective viral marketing campaign. If people actually buy their bluetooth headsets, then this has been a great thing.

Full disclosure—I got a deal on one long before the videos came out due to my pals at woot.com

By Volman

July 4, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

Ray, yeah, great to be back….I’ve been lurking around recently but just haven’t decided to post..

What do you guys think will happen with Smoove? I think he’ll stay…at a hefty price, and then Chill will be dealt.

We can only wait!

By Matt

July 4, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

HB,

Depending on what your definition of “standing pat” is, I might take you up on that. We obviously have 3 roster spots to fill not matter what. If we fill those with a decent 3-point shooter and a decent backup big - even if both are reserves - I think we still make the playoffs next year due to the fact that we’re a young team and every player we have will improve (including JJ and Bibby - because Bibby will be healthy and JJ will have a full season alongside a healthy Bibby).

So let me know what you mean by “standing” pat and I’d be happy to bet non-Monopoly money on the Hawks making the playoffs next year.

By mykhalc

July 4, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this

it must be a holiday ‘cause i just agreed with Matt in his 11:13AM post!!!! WHOA!!!LOL

i’ve been screamin’ BIBBY was hurt the entire time while people were railin’ on him!!! i have no doubt the cat will bring it this upcomin’ season, no matter where he plays!!! the HAWKS would be stupid to not let him play out the season here!!! but this is the HAWKS!!!

DOC, i have to admit the GSW fiasco is one i didn’t see comin’!!! makes it more intriguin’!!! the HAWKS have been on this course since last summer. but you’re right, at least i got 2 shows to watch!!!;o)

By mykhalc

July 4, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

happy 4th all!!!

By doc

July 4, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

matt your indignation or dispute to my post is out of line as i suggested 11 or 12 last year might have sewn the deal up. i NEVER suggested a max to smith only what most felt would be comparable compensation for someone of his talents that will only get better if he is with the right team and coach. book it as a friend of mine says. my comment is more about a franchise doing what is right for the individual and the team. feel that is an area lacking in the BIG A. care to differ on the summation or the hawks? then go to the minority window.

By doc

July 4, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this

agree about bibby if he truly is all you say he is matt and i like the guy. however as others have noted he has to fill the shoes of two players the hawks need at the salary he has. one is the point guard the second is that of a sharp shooter to keep other teams honest on defense of jj particularly. if he does that then we dont need to spend on that guy if he stays healthy, if he doesnt then we have to spend what we dont have.

myk keep us posted on the second channel if anything is of interest we can switch.

By Melvin

July 4, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

Outsider (Warriors beat writer, i think) point of view of the Hawks situation on JSmith. Article from hoopshype link:

Don’t get your hopes up on Josh Smith. I was told he’s Atlanta’s Monta - they aren’t letting him go. Philadelphia and Detroit are reportedly hot after him. I hope the Warriors are in that max (I’m a big Josh Smith fan). But it looks like it won’t matter. They’re planning to match - though I’m sure an offer sheet for the max would make the Hawks at least think twice.

By josh

July 4, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

espn reports Smith left Philadelphia with out an offer.

By Ken Strickland

July 4, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

ANDO-we really aren’t at odds with each other. We are just proposing different options that would require different circumstances in order to work. My suggestion requires no trades, while yours, regarding Bargnani, would. I see nothing wrong with Bargnani at the 5, especially with our supporting cast. As great as Kareem was, he wasn’t a good rebounder and required a solid PF. It could work, provided Woodson manages it correctly.

Zaza is a good rebounder, off the ball defender and is good at ball denial. Otherwise, he’s a DEF liability. Bangnani might by a better shotblocker, but he’s a weak rebounder and he might be more of an off the ball shotblocker, like Smoove. Bangnani and Zaza are both good shooters, but bangnani has far more range. The only real flaw in your suggestion would be Woodson. Bangnani would be most effective in an uptempo running OFF, which we both know Woodson doesn’t favor.

My suggestion is definitely better if you don’t want to give up anything in a trade. Otherwise, your’s is a very good alternative.

MATT-At first, I thought Bibby’s playoff problems were strickly related to fatigue. After reading SALIM FANS comments, I was able to expand my thoughts on the matter. Coming off hand surgery, especially a thumb, injuring your foot, and playing rediculous mins, certainly didn’t contribute to the healing process. Hell, instead of criticizing his playoff performance, we should be singing praises to his grit and determination. He definitely couldn’t push off on that foot well enough to beat his man and penetrate. By the playoffs, he was probably playing on fumes and determination. Boston’s coaching staff realized his problems and pressured him hard the entire series. I believe we will all be pleasantly supprised with the overall performance and impact of a healthy Bibby this upcoming season.

By terrell barron

July 4, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

Philly was just bluffing.

By MannyT

July 4, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this

I think most of us would agree—if the team is better next season, we will be happy. But I have a twist on that question.

If we get better—more wins, better roster—but we don’t make the playoffs (imagine the east get more competitive like west) how would you look at the season?

I know we don’t know who will be on the roster or what the cap situation looks like, but I am curious.

Some food for thought from this season:

—Portland didn’t make it, but has lots of upside.

—Washington made it, but Gil sucks up almost all of the cash, so there won’t be any major additions…and they can’t get past Cleveland/1st round

—Denver made it, but there were few moves and they are not improving like some of their competition.

—Golden State just missed and lost Baron Davis, but now they have the big cap slot to use for CRAP or PAIN?

By Lifelong Hawks Fan

July 4, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

Sekou,

This is from the Jazz website:

Jazz Announce 2008 Rocky Mountain Revue Schedule

The 2008 Rocky Mountain Revue, presented by StoresOnline, will take place at the Lifetime Activities Center located on the Redwood Campus of Salt Lake Community College from July 18-25.

Eight teams will participate in this year’s Revue, headlined by the Utah Jazz which expects to have 2008 first-round pick Kosta Koufos on its roster as well as returning Jazzmen Morris Almond and Kyrylo Fesenko. Joining the Jazz this summer will be the Atlanta Hawks, Dallas Mavericks, Golden State Warriors, New Jersey Nets, San Antonio Spurs, along with a D-League All-Star team and the 2007 FIBA Asian Champion.

Team rosters will be comprised of rookies, second-year players and select free agents. Players expected to appear in the Revue this year include 2008 lottery picks Brook Lopez (Nets) and Anthony Randolph (Warriors), first-round picks Ryan Anderson (Nets) and George Hill (Spurs). Other notables include Al Horford and Acie Law IV of Atlanta, Marco Belinelli and Brandan Wright of Golden State, and Chris Douglas-Roberts of New Jersey.

The 2008 Revue marks the 11th straight year the Mavericks have participated in the Jazz summer league while the Spurs return for the sixth straight year and the Hawks for the fifth time in-a-row. The Warriors are making their sixth appearance in the Revue, but their first since 1997, while the Nets are making their Revue debut this year.

The opening game of the Revue will tip-off at 4:30 p.m. MT on Friday, July 18 with the Mavericks taking on the Hawks. Jazz fans will then get their first look at Kosta Koufos as the Jazz host the Spurs at 7 p.m. MT.

I also know Demetric Bennett will be playing for the Hawks as well. Anyone else that you’ve heard (Andersen)??

By MannyT

July 4, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

It is funny to see that WUF comes into play when folks potentially come or go on this team.

If he doesn’t improve significantly, I will feel Sund-burned;-)

By doc

July 4, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

myk and matt count me in on the issue of injury when it comes to bibby. i pray that is all it was as the guy is the consummate pro and stand up guy. at that price he has to at least be able to do at least two of three things; distribute, shoot or play D. any less than that he is a waste of money.

By Samuel

July 4, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

Mykhalc,

I agree. I believe that if we sign the core players we have. We will not only be in the playoffs but actually make some noise. Bibby for a whole season, Acie and Al with a year and a serious playoff series behind them, Solo ready to make a serious move to get some minutes, JJ healthy and Josh Smith and Marvin ready to take it to the next level. Even if we lose Childress, were ok.

I feel like Rick will come through and sign Josh Smith and Bibby. We can then add another post player. That happens and were ready to move to the middle of the Eastern pack.

I can’t really see where that many teams in the east got that much better. Chicago will be relying on a rookie point guard to save them and an untestested head coach. Chicago could lose Gordon, Deng and/or Hinrich. Milwakee has a new coach so we don’t know how they will react. Jersey lost their most consistant player. Sixers could lose their best player also.

The keys are definately Smith and Bibby. Come on Rick make me proud.

PS: I just shaved my head in support of Woody.

By mykhalc

July 4, 2008 2:05 PM | Link to this

DOC, and we have to give RONDO his props too!!! the cat gave EVERYBODY trouble he played against!!! so he proved to be better than he got credit for goin’ into the playoffs IMHO!! BIBBY was just among the casualties!!! but he also was among the wounded!!!heh heh

By mykhalc

July 4, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

ANDO, speedy recovery bro!!! not as in SPEEDY CLAXTON kinda recovery tho!!! get well dude!!!

By Najeh Davenpoop

July 4, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

Damn Doc… makes me not wanna use my cell phone.

I agree with Volman — I see Smoove staying here for slightly more than he is worth and Childress being dealt… although if we had a good GM it would probably be Bibby or Marvin getting shipped out instead with Childress staying.

By doc

July 4, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

rindo has dennis johnson written all over him though not as big. the guy performed on the big stage more so than anyone thought he could. sam cassell was as much a spectator as we were which was the insurance policy they got in case he couldnt do it. most of the way he showed as much growth as the team during their march to the trophy. i dont think the hawks would have been able to do what they did if playing them at the end instead of at the start. the C’s definitely gelled as the playoffs continued.

samuel, i’ll shave mine when he leaves. oops did i just say that?

najeh, i think my daughter and i are going to try it out.

By terrell barron

July 4, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

Ken, do you really think Woody is going to rely on Solo to backup at the 4 and 5 spots, if Pachulia starts, and Smoove moves to SF? Or were you talking about after we pick up a big? And if Josh Smith moves to the 3, which I dont think he will, he’ll be guarding Kobe’s and Lebron’s out on the perimeter. We need Smoove inside, where he does his best work, which is shot-blocking and making players think twice before laying it up. And why is everybody in such a hurry to move Big Al to PF. Are you guys sure about that? Can you say foul trouble? I say leave him at the 5 until he and Smoove are both ready to change positions. And they’re not ready yet. Too many things they both need to work on. My suggestion would be for Al to start at center/backup at PF. And Smoove should start at PF and be the backup SF. Could you imagine all the jumpers Josh would take if he was told he was the starter at SF? Be careful of what you ask for. There are only a few teams where we would be overmatched with Horford and Smoove at center and PF. And that should be Sund’s 1st priority, along with a shooter, when he looks to add a couple of players to the roster. A decent big to come in, in certain situations, or against a specific team. And a quality shooter off the bench, to give us a spark when ‘OL Marv is off. Leave Horford and Smoove where they are. PLEASE!

By terrell barron

July 4, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

My gut feelings tell me that it’s really Childress who Cheeks wants. I see him as a better fit in Philadelphia. When was the last time you saw a winning team with 2 lefty’s(Thaddeous and Josh S.) in the starting lineup? lol!!

By Volman

July 4, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

Can July 9th come any faster!?!?!

going crazy here!!

By terrell barron

July 4, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

I just heard that Golden State might make a run a Smoove. Talk about a good fit. And they have a ton of money since the bearded one opted out.

By Ken Strickland

July 4, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

TERRELL BARRON-like I said, my suggestion wasn’t a perfect one. It was just the best option I could think of without us getting involved in a trade. Also, Smoove played SF opposite AHarrington his 1st 2yrs. He handled himself well on DEF then and he was less experienced than he is now. Smoove should be able to DEF 3’s as well as LOdom of the Lakers does. You should ask yourself how long would Kobe or Lebron last before getting into foul trouble trying to cover Smoove down low.

We would have to sign another Big to backup the C and PF positions, but we wouldn’t have to trade anyone away with my suggestion. I don’t have a problem with Horford at C because he can play it very effectively, but for how long with Woodson forcing him to play unreasonable mins. Horford is also a player that doesn’t pace himself. He goes all out the entire time he’s on the floor.

To be honest, I’d love to see how effective we can be with last yrs starting lineup, featuring a healthy Bibby for an entire season.

By terrell barron

July 4, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

Does Big Al really need to be playing in the Summer League. Woody, this is’nt Marvin or Sheldon. It would ruin my summer, if he got injured, in any kind of way. Serious, Minor, whatever.

By terrell barron

July 4, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

That’s what I’m saying. Lets see how we start out, with a healthy Bibby, before we change our starting lineup. If we change anything, it should be Chills starting over Marvin. lol!! But Chills is our energy guy, so that probably wont happen. But then again, Marvin could be that shooter off the bench that we’re looking for. Add Jarvis Hayes, Roger Mason Jr, etc… and a decent big, and we’re set.

By nookah

July 4, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

Guys,

It’s been great reading all your posts. I have been riding the pine for the last week or so and enjoying one of the best blogs in the business.

Large up Sekou.

I wonder however, if the rumour about GS wanting Smoove is correct? Are they going to throw max money or close to it at Smoove? If so who would we get in the sign & trade? Ken my brother, help me here.

My opinion is that we will stay pat and keep Smoove as someone blogged earlier. I am however, a little concerned that we always seem to be reactive rather than pro-active and I am referring to the other FA’s not the Smoove & Chills situation. We need a big & a shooter and we appear to be waiting until all the other teams make their move which includes teams in our conference. It suggests to me either an inept management or a paucity of cash. Which is it or is it all of the above?

I am also in agreement with the prior blogger who questioned the wisdom of risking AH’s participation in the summer league. I agree wholeheartedly with that suggestion. Let’s hope management sees it that way.

Let’s also hope however, we can get it right in free agency.

Go Hawks!!!

Nuff Respect!!!!

By A Thinking Fan

July 4, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

BASG

By Ken Strickland

July 4, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

The truth is, if we had a HC that could, or would, manage players mins, the bench, and encourage an uptempo OFF, we could be successful with almost any of the lineups suggested on these blogs.

This is what I don’t understand. If ownership really intends to spend millions of dollars to match any and all offers made to both Joshes, why rehire Woodson to handle their very expensive investments? If they really wanted to generate more fan interest after the Hawks playoff experience, again, why rehire Woodson? To me, the best way to generate needed revenue is to increase attendance by increasing fan interest. There is no way rehiring Woodson was going to accomplish either.

By ray

July 4, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this

Nookah, why did you have to say Josh Smith and “max money” in the same sentence? Up until now, the only people who have been saying that have been the same ones who automatically start screaming that he isn’t worth max money….despite the fact that no one has suggested that he has, and everybody knows he’s not a max contract player. Come on man, you’re only encouraging them to continue hollering about something that isn’t even an issue…..

I personally think Philly didn’t make Smith an offer for more than one reason. They probably are waiting for the salary cap news…and they are going to make certain that Elton Brand cannot be had first. That and one other reason that terrell barron brought up: they are also intrigued by Childress. Especially since he can be had for a lot less money than Smoove. But we’ll see. In their case, waiting is probably not a bad thing. After all, they have a solid coach, as well as a solid point guard and center. They have only to upgrade the pieces they have by adding another impact forward and a shooter or two.

Golden State is in full panic mode because they didn’t believe BD was going to leave that much money on the table. What’s worse? They are probably not going to get Elton Brand. Nor is anybody else. Why? Brand was looking for the Clips to grab a marquee free agent, someone who could really help him make a dent in the opposition. Elton, say hello to BD. BD is one baaaaaad man. Ask Kirilenko, who is now on the wrong end of one of the playoffs’ best dunk moments. Ask the Dallas Mavericks. Yep, I see Elton signing another contract on Donald Sterling’s desk.

Even worse for Golden State is that the electrifying Monta Ellis is also having a look around. Losing two 20-point scorers in one summer, and missing on two 20-point scoring free agents (Brand and Arenas) in one summer? That’s gotta hurt. They’ll be willing to do a lot to acquire some talented guys. Look for them to not only target Maggette (who fits the bill nicely for them), but guys like Smith and maybe even Delfino (he can shoot). They could even use Childress. Hell, anybody could use Childress. He might be the biggest key to adding some needed pieces to our team, much as I hate to see him go.

Interesting how Smith’s agent says other teams are interested in him, but he won’t divulge who they are. I’m guessing that he’s playing his cards very close to the vest for a number of reasons. What those reasons might be, I couldn’t accurately guess…but there’s probably a lot more “back-door” offers and whisperings going on than we might imagine.

By ray

July 4, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this

Good question, Ken, and one subject I continue to despair of. I just don’t have Samuel’s faith.

The other thing that bothers me is how the Hawks are not mentioned even one iota in the proactive part of free agency. NOWHERE. Not one damn rumor, idea, or anything else. And I’ve looked… Seeing as how this organization has never been known as capable of performing an clandestine operation, I’d say that this means we are not the least bit active in the free agent market, other than to sit back and wait for someone else to set the price for our own free agents. What are we gonna do, wait and see who shakes out in the summer league to fill our roster? Uh, that’s not how you get veteran players, much less decent veteran players. I feel like there’s just so much for the taking out there, and we’re just sitting idly by, having daydreams about 40 minute per man starting lineup, an “improvement” to mabye 38 or 40 wins, and visions of Mr. Potato Head hugging himself on the sidelines in between fits of wild gesticulation and inarticulate yelling….

By MannyT

July 4, 2008 7:46 PM | Link to this

ray Forget salary cap and luxury tax for a moment. If the ASG is concerned that getting the Joshes back will use all the money they planned to spend for salaries this season, other free agents don’t matter.

You get to the league minimum number of players with the best MINIMUM salary players and move on.

The scariest thing that we don’t know (and should not know for negotiating leverage) is how much the ASG is willing to spend this season.

The real salary cap is the PAIN we must accept.

By ray

July 4, 2008 8:33 PM | Link to this

Well, I sure needed that extra bit of HAIL to go with the rain on my parade….

By Ken Strickland

July 4, 2008 10:27 PM | Link to this

RAY-what the Hawks do, or don”t do, in free agency will likely depend on what it will take to resign the 2 Joshes, if that’s the case.

JSmith is a max contract player, but not necessarily because of his basketball skills alone. Consider the following. JJ is one of the best all around players in the NBA, like Kobe and Lebron. However, fans will not fill the seats to see him like they will Lebron or Kobe. Smoove is exciting doing what he does, and people will fill the seats to see him do his thing. He not only generates stats for the stat sheet, he generates additional revenue for the owners. His presence, and the fans that will come to see him, will recoup some of the money we’ll have to overpay to resign him. If ownership realizes this, he’ll be resigned.

I honestly believe Marvin, Horford, JJ and Bibby will be much improved over last yr. JJ won’t be improved, but he should be more effective since he won’t have to face constant double teams the entire season. Our bench play won’t depend on the players, but Woodson’s willingness to employ their use. If these Hawks are allowed to do what they do best, and that’s run, we could be a bigger, stronger, more exciting, DEF minded version of the Suns, pre-Shaq of course.

By ray

July 4, 2008 11:41 PM | Link to this

Ken, I understand what you’re saying. But please don’t say max contract or max money. Between Matt and Kirknga, a case of apoplexy is liable to happen…

The whole thing really boils down to money. How much does the ASG have, and how much will they spend? July 9th can’t get here fast enough. Then we get to wait some more…

I fully expect all of our guys to improve. But our bench is hurting badly. Salim almost surely will be gone. Is West under contract? Pachulia is not on good terms with Woodson. Solomon showed decently in the playoffs, but he’s still lacking in weight/strength and who knows if Woody feels like he’s “ready to play.” Richardson may or may not be here.

Remember, both Woodson and Joe Johnson want more veterans. A decision was made to retain Woodson, one I vehemently disagree with. While I’d be happy to eat crow pie, souffle, etc if Woody somehow proved himself to be quite competent…I don’t see it happening with the same roster. This is probably going to sound crazy, but if you decide to keep Woody, then you have to give him what he says he wants/needs. Okay, he’s already been given the veteran point guard. Now give him some more veterans: a big or two, a shooter or two. Give him everything he asks for (within reason and within ability) and then one of two things should result:

1)He succeeds in getting this team to play better than .500 ball. I say this because if there are that many improvements, then 5 more wins is not enough for me to consider it a significant improvement.

2)He does not succeed, and the team’s record and performance is the same or worse. Only now you’ve given him enough rope to hang himself. Woody exit stage left, Drew enter stage right.

Not only that, but we end up with a more efficient team with better depth. That’s really my only disagreement: we cannot proceed with largely the same roster. At least 3 solid acquisitions must be made, mostly because we have no reason to believe that we can count on Woody to utilize and develop his bench players.

Sure, he sucks as a coach. But that’s no reason to upgrade the roster.

By mykhalc

July 5, 2008 12:20 AM | Link to this

i wonder what SUND is thinkin’…

1) does he REALLY think WOODSON is the coach to get the HAWKS to the next level?? probably not, that’s why he was only given a 2 yr extension (still 2 yrs too many in my book) but SUND was not willing to make an immediate change.

2) does SUND think the team will be able to achieve the next level without SMOOVE and CHILS??? probably, with the ‘right’ replacements. but my bet is that he is NOT ready to make that immediate change either.

seems like SUND is the kinda cat that wants to see what he has first-hand ‘before’ he makes ANY changes. so i’m thinkin’ he DOES match the offers for JS and JC??!!?? but what do i know??? i’m still depressed WOODSON was extended!!!

By Ramon

July 5, 2008 12:55 AM | Link to this

Ken, I’ve been saying the same things about Smoove for the longest. If you take #5 out of all of the Hawks commercials what do you have besides one of Horford’s dunk, and Zaza standing in Garnett’s face? Smoove can be a very good investment if you give him the extension.

I used to be a fan of Shawn Kemp. And I can EASILY say Smoove is better NOW than Kemp ever was (especially on defense). I use Kemp as an example, because although the Sonics had Payton on defense, and Schremph knocking down open jumpers (as well as Nate McMillan), it was KEMP who brought the fans to the arena at home and on the road. And although Kemp took the team out of position sometimes, he did lead them to the finals and had the best record in the west another season also. So why can’t Smoove do this same thing?

By ray

July 5, 2008 4:51 AM | Link to this

Josh is 22. I would think that growing pains are in order, wouldn’t you? Here’s what will happen (especially if detractors get their way): Josh and the Hawks fans endure the bulk of his growing pains, then he moves on. He matures, and becomes the kind of player some people say he never will be. Sound like a happy ending? Not if you’re a Hawks fan. But it can happen.

I read the articles and the blog comments about Josh and how he’s not a leader on the court or the leader in the locker room. I’ll say it again: he’s 22. Tell me this, what veterans has he had to look up to? Can’t name any worth mentioning, can you? Who’s been his mentor? Al Harrington? Stop it, you’re killing me. How about Lorenzen Wright? Yeah, Mr. I Put Popcorn in Your Personal Vehicle, but I can’t seem to average more rebounds than fouls per game. Another winner. Lue and AJ? Nice try. Bibby gets a pass because he’s been here less than half a season. Oh wait, what about the guy we gave up two first round draft picks, a player, and a $70 million dollar contract to? Sorry, but he says he prefers not to say very much…but he would like for you to bring in some other veterans so they can help tame all the young guys.

So, we’re back to the brash young 22 year old. One more time: he’s 22. I don’t want to hear about the one-finger salute from two years ago. I don’t want to hear about the in-game verbal skirmish with Mr. Potato Head. People said he was trouble. What did he do last year? Not one damn thing that people said he’d do. Never got into trouble away from work either.

Sought out instruction because he couldn’t get any within the organization. Hell, it’s even documented that even Dominique wasn’t allowed much contact with the team. Huh. Then people scoff because he picked the wrong Hall of Famers to train with? At least he tried! Why can’t he get this at home?? Sure, he could get this from Mr. Potato Head, who will tell him to walk, not run up the court….

I could understand if dude was 25 years old and still doing all the wrong things. But he isn’t doing them off the court, and the ones he’s doing on the court are fixable. That is, if you have somebody around who can actually fix it.

Want to fix these issues? Get some real vets in place, not broken-down point guards. Run a real offense where roles are defined. Run the offense through Horford no less than every third trip down the court (idea courtesy of Sautee). Quit allowing JJ to get isolated without help. Spread the floor more. All of this will help Josh to quit doing the things he does on offense. He does them because our offense is a joke. He’s our second leading scorer, or didn’t you notice? Why is that? Prior to Bibby’s arrival, was there ever any choice? NO!! Why? Marvin would seem to be the most legit threat with his shooting ability. One problem: complete lack of aggression. Wants to shoot the midrange open jumper, has no range beyond that, and cannot get to the basket consistently. Horford doesn’t get the ball nearly enough. Childress is an opportunistic scorer. Zaza was crammed into the doghouse with Salim and everybody else.

That leaves Smith and his flaws. But sure, it’s all his fault. Yeah. That’s the ticket.

By ray

July 5, 2008 5:00 AM | Link to this

Myk, at this point one can only wonder what Sund is actually thinking. It almost doesn’t matter. The retention of Woodson is hard to swallow, but it has Michael Gearon, Jr written all over it. I don’t see Sund overcoming that. However, at least it was only kept to 2 years (which says something…but that could be due to court proceedings next February, not just a safeguard against continued ineptitude).

As for anything else, dude can only do what Gearon and crew tell him he can do. That’s what we’re ALL afraid of, though, isn’t it?

By roan st

July 5, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this

We better hope and pray that Brand signs with Golden state. Why? Because they have a boat load of cap space, way more than even philly, and rumor has it that josh will be a target if brand doesn’t work out. Golden state could offer a contract that would make our penny pinching broke a* owners knees tremble. They say they will match any offer so we shall see.

If we happen to not match smith what about going after iggy? He’s the prototype 3 and is destined to be a 25 per game scorer. Nice consolation price if we can’t retain smith. Of course he is resticted as well so it would be tough to get him.

By Ken Strickland

July 5, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

I went walking again this morning and had another thought, wow.

(1) We all know Philly is considering making an offer to Smoove that will be designed to force our hand financially.

(2)The SAASG has stated they will match any offer made to either of our RFA’s. We have to seriously consider what that really means.

(4)Philly has a RFA of their own to consider, Igoudala.

(5)Philly has to expect Igoudala will be offered a front loaded contract that will be simular, in money and length of time, to the one they’ll likely offer Smoove.

If Philly wants to keep Igoudala, I seriously doubt if they can afford, or wants to pay, 2 near max front loaded contracts. Remember, they also have some draft picks to sign. I’m not certain the SAASG intends to retain Smoove when they say they’ll match any offer made to him. Remember, once Smoove turned down their initial offer last yr, mgt basically stopped all negotiations after that. When ownership said they will match all offers, I believe they are letting everyone they will not let them go without compensation(a sign and trade).

What I don’t know is, if a team makes a RFA an offer, can his team do a sign and trade with a team other than the one making the offer. If so, Philly and Atlanta can do a sign and trade swap of Igoudala and Smoove. If not, the only way it can logically work is if Philly includes Dalembert in the sign and trade. His salary($10.2M) is the only one that comes close to matching what Smoove will likely be offered(between $11-12M), without gutting their roster. They might want Zaza($4M)to replace Dalembert, which would mean another player, and maybe a pick, would have to be included, likely (PF REvans($4.3M), who Smoove would replace anyway. This would allow them to match any offer to Igoudala without having to assume 2 frontloaded near max contracts(Smoove’s contract would be a wash since comparable salaries/contracts will be sent to the Hawks in the sign and trade).

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I just don’t see the cash strapped Hawks taking on 2 expensive frontloaded contracts for Smoove and Chills when they could have possibly spent less money to sign both to contract extensions last yr.

By MannyT

July 5, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

ray I didn’t mean to bring the HAIL. Let me take this budget thing in a positive way.

Knowing that they need divorce cash to deal with Belkin, maybe some of the minor less visible (not Gearon or Levenson) partners will put some cash on the table. If not, maybe they all are looking for the deep pockets to replace Belkin. Let’s say they have identified someone/two folks that prefer to keep out of the spotlight until the deal with Belkin is done.

In order to get the new cash infusion, the new cash would want something. If that something is a commitment of the ownership to have a more positive face and step up regarding roster improvements, you may get the Joshes back and a decent free agent or two.

I know folks would like to bring the HAIL on this but consider that there are over 1000 billionaires in the world. In the US the estimates vary, but roughly 1 of every 200 folks in this country is a millionaire. With a US population over 300 million, that means there are over a million millionaires. The million+ millionaires holds even if you back out all of the professional athletes that might be on the list. The cash inflow they are looking for would be well over a million, but this just highlights that there are a lot of folks out there with the money.

All this and I didn’t even target the regular cast of folks that put their names in the ring to own expansion franchises when they become available. There could be some good karma out there.

Maybe there are more candidates for the fiscal side of good CRAP than we thought.

By I.MUS WRITE

July 5, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

Good post Ray………If we dont retain Smoove’s services im almost certain he will develope into that 21/9/5/2/2 type baller next year, Especially if philly signs him-

Mo cheeks will be the best thing to happen to him …… nuthn but respect for him as a HC.

If I played for woody i would have an attitude too,I mean dont we see a pattern here………ZAZA,Salim,Smoove,Acie.

Francisco Elson is the Center we need -7ft shot blocker,mobility ,outside jumper,changes ends really quick.

By Ken Strickland

July 5, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

RAY-your post was on target, and it mirrors points made by others, including myself. Doesn’t it seem that Woodson reads our comments and then does the exact opposite. Woodson appears more interested in upholding the keys to success taught to him by his mentor, Bobby Knight, than breaking away from that philosopny and initiating changes that are best for this team and it’s players.

Personally, I’ve gone back and forth trying to find clues as to the SAASG’s intentions concerning Smoove and Chills. They’ve stated publically their intention to match any offer for the two. Common sense tells me if they really intended to retain Smoove, they’d make a serious attempt to sign them before he receives any offers. That way, they control the terms and conditions of the deal. By waiting, and then matching another teams offer, they have no control over the terms or the conditions of the deal. I just don’t think the SAASG is as interested in resigning Smoove as they are in making certain they receive compensation for him.

This isn’t about Woodson. He’s just a symptom of the real problem with this franchise, the dysfunctional, underfunded SAASG.

By SalimFan

July 5, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

Good Stuff

I really don’t beleive the ASG is that Naive. They know that Josh Smith sells the tickets. we’ve got better talent and bigger names on the roster (JJ and Bibby). But Josh Smith is THE FACE OF OUR FRANCHISE. He’s our Dominique, our Mike Vick, our Slam Dunk Champ, Our Hometowm Hero, and our Modern day higlight Reel.

No smoove no Revenue. The ASG only has to look down the street at the Georgia Dome to see who’s really bluffing………fan’s or management??? NO SMOOVE NO REVENUE……If the fan’t don’t like what they see, they won’t show up and the ASG looses TONS of CASH. Probaby a lot more than they would’ve lost just re signing our guys and getting some decent vets in here. Besides if you put a winning team on the floor you’re gonna reap what you sow. Through, television deals and the playoffs just to name a few.

Josh smith is not Dumb. If Baron Davis isn’t in Golden State then whose going to throw him those pretty Passes??? I also doubt josh wants to move 3,000 miles across the country.

Also Unless Sund plans on replacing Salim with a D-League guy then he’s Going to have to sign someone like, Jarvis or Kwame. We only had 12 players after the All-star break (Active)so with salim defenetly leaving….forget the cap, they’re gonna go over regardless and they know it. So they might as well go ahed ahead get the good players off the market before they’re gone. Pay now or PAIN later??? Which do you choose ASG????

By Ken Strickland

July 5, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

SALIM FAN-from a marketing, common sense, financial and public relations standpoint, we could assemble a group from individuals on these blogs who could do a better job running this franchise than the SAASG.

I guarantee you if we made the decisions, both Joshes would be signed by now and Woodson would be looking for a job.

By kirknga

July 5, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this

Ken, I understand what you’re saying. But please don’t say max contract or max money. Between Matt and Kirknga, a case of apoplexy is liable to happen…

Still getting your digs in I see. No problem Ray you got to do what you got to do I guess.

Well allow me to touch upon a “max contract briefly.

Reading another AJC blog on the subject someone made an observation that I think was a fresh take.

The fan said that Smith’s agents are smart and that it was smart not to sign any contract with the Hawks before going out to see what the market would bring.

ASG cannot force Smith to sign a contract.We all assume it is all ASG’s fault alone for Smith not signing.

I mentioned I thought it was a smart move by ASG, but it would also be a smart move by his agent to reject any offer short of a max contract until they tested the market for the highest bidder.

This is solid logic in my opinion. Sign nothing short of the absolute most you can get.

It is also smart of ASG to not pay the max or any other amount above their original offer until it is clear that is what they must do to retain his services.

I think we are just witnessing smart business sense by both parties.

Again, the primary focus should be on improving on 37 wins. I am in favor of whatever it takes to accomplish that goal.

By I rarely post

July 5, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

Salim Fan, you hit a grand slam with your FACE OF THE FRANCHISE comment.

I’ll turn my back on this “organization,” if they don’t keep Smith.

I like Childress, but I could eventually get over it, if they sign-and-traded him. His energy off the bench would be missed, but…maybe some other pieces could be added. However, I don’t know who would replace him, or be a better 6th man.

I agree with all of those, who wish the “ASG” would be more aggressive, rather than a reactive approach to Free Agency.

By HHoops

July 5, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this

Ken Strickland & Salim Fan

I agree with what both of you are saying. I just can’t see why ASG would not sign both Joshes. I understand that money may be tight with the cap in sight, but if they don’t improve this team, they are going to really loose money. Josh Smith brings fans to the game with his style of play. Everybody likes Josh Childress because he plays with his heart! Everybody appreciates players that play hard and gives you all they have. That’s why We Love Horford!!!

Sure, Josh Smith makes some young mistakes at times, but he is young! He is learning and he will continue to improve. As has been previously discussed, the Hawks have put a lot of time and energy into developing both Joshes. Why would you not resign them and get the “fruits of your labor”?

I like having the flexibility of having a small lineup as well as a big lineup. If we can add a BIG we could have the best of both worlds.

Small Lineup-Bibby, JJ, Chills, J. Smith, & Horford

Big Lineup-Bibby, JJ, J. Smith, Horford, & new big

Bench-Acie, Marvin, Solomon, Zaza, & add J. Hayes

Do you think Golden State would consider trading Biedrins, a restricted free agent, for J. Smith and what do you think about that trade possibility?

By I rarely post

July 5, 2008 6:25 PM | Link to this

How ‘bout a KEEP JOSH SMITH campaign from the fanbase?

Would ASG even care?

I know it’s asking a lot, but I like to watch the Hawks not only win, but play an ENTERTAINING style of basketball as well. That can’t be done without the presence of #5 in the lineup!

Remember how boring the Mookie Blaylock led, half court Hawks were to watch? They were able to win and reach the playoffs, but also played a BORING brand of basketball. I’m not looking for “Sports Entertainment.” WWE ain’t for me! I simply don’t enjoy watching teams who can’t Run and gun a little.

ASG, Keep Smith, or MANY fans such as myself are GONE!!!!!!!!!!

By richbrave

July 5, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

Doc, RAY et. al.:

Still in the land of the living. Slowly coming back. I can’t sit in front of the computor but a few right now, but will try to catch up in August. hOPE EVERYONE HAD A GREAT 4TH. go hawks.

By stevo

July 5, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this

oh no, they showed him a jersey with his name on it!!!!!!!!! the hawks don’t stand a chance now!!!!!!!

respectfully, sekou has gone way overboard with this whole ‘the hawks have been lukewarm and the sixers are pulling out all the stops’ storyline.

bottom line, this is not college, and the money is what matters most. and the hawks will match.

oh, and ray, nobody didn’t know you were dark karma, and nobody cared either way, and clearly it was killing you that nobody was making your name change a topic.

you are still a sad, lonely jackass in both representations.

(and, yes, you can all do your little police routine - very sad and stupid as well; and, yes, this is an expression of opinion of you as you represent yourself on this board, so get over the whole ‘name calling is childish’ cry because the name serves a purpose, and just accept that you embarrass yourself daily on here, or ignore me; and, yes, it is completely irrelevant as to whether i would say these things to your face, as i could be a 90 year old grandmother or a 25 year old mixed mma professional, it doesn’t really matter - if you didn’t notice, this is the internet, and it is played with words, and your words, among many other aspects of your character, are a joke).

cheers!

By kirknga

July 5, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

I’ll take a winning team that makes the playoffs, but is boring over an exciting losing team.

Isn’t having a losing record year after year boring?

Generally, people support winners, not losers no matter how beautiful they may be.

By SalimFan

July 5, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

Get well soon RichBrave

HHoops, I might be mistaken but I think the last time I looked at a graphic of Golden State Beidrins WAS their only Restricted free Agent ha! Tht’s how much trouble they’re in. Also other than a sign and Trade I don’t think Restricted free agents can be traded outright.

Stevo!!!, What’s goin on BUDDY!!! That’s not self expression that’s FLAMING, PERIOD.

“oh, and ray, nobody didn’t know you were dark karma, and nobody cared either way, and clearly it was killing you that nobody was making your name change a topic.”

IF YOU DIDN’T CARE YOU WOULDN’T BE TALKING ABOUT IT SMART ONE.

“and, yes, it is completely irrelevant as to whether i would say these things to your face”

Actually one has consequences and the other doesn’t…..and it’s only irrelevant to cowards.

“as i could be a 90 year old grandmother or a 25 year old mixed mma professional, it doesn’t really matter - if you didn’t notice, this is the internet, and it is played with words, and your words, among many other aspects of your character, are a joke).”

Actually you’re just a dork behind a computer with a penchant for run-on sentences, comma splices……baisically just crappy Grammar Skills……HOW OLD ARE YOU??? DID YOU DROP OUT BUDDY??? Too many bad people pick on you in class???

“and, yes, you can all do your little police routine”

Hmmm…… A Prediction Maybe????……I’m glad you’ve learnd what happens when you act like Jack A S S on this Blog. Considering the fact that you called for it EARLY if figured you were about say something stupid.

I’m finished…..Hey whats your real name?? I’m sure the a real policeman would LOVE to drop by.

ANDO, I was wondering if you had it in you to so a five page report on why stevo is and idiot?????? IT WOULD REALLY MAKE MY DAY.

Cheers!………….NOT

By Ken Strickland

July 5, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

HHOOPS-if you were the teams owner, what would you do. If you really wanted to retain Smoove, would you:

(1)Wait until another team sets the price, terms and structure of the contract, then match it? If so, you would be taking on a contract that wouldn’t be favorable to you, especially if it’s frontend loaded, which it most certainly will be.

(2)Make an acceptable offer before anyone else gets involved so you can determine the price, terms and structure of the contract. This is the best way to take advantage of his loyalties, community and organizational ties(hometown discount).

I believe the SAASG is waiting for someone else to establish his market value so they can get maximum compensation in a sign and trade. The higher the contract offer, the more they will have to give up in a sign and trade. That’s why ownership has publically made it known they will match any offer. Any team considering offering Smoove a FA contract will have to be willing to consider a sign and trade to acquire him. That would scare off teams hoping to steal him away from the Hawks by calling their bluff with a loaded contract.

By SalimFan

July 5, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this

Ken, I really hope that’s not the case.

By kirknga

July 5, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this

I believe the SAASG is waiting for someone else to establish his market value so they can get maximum compensation in a sign and trade. The higher the contract offer, the more they will have to give up in a sign and trade.

That sounds like a smart observation and move to me.

We have to remember that even though Phoenix let JJ go in part because of the front loaded contract, they also received some very valuable assets in return.

The same could happen to the Hawks. Perhaps even the assets they get in return turn out to be better than the asset they gave up.

ASG has some options here.

By ray

July 5, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

Kirknga, what do you mean “digs”? Me?? I was worried about your health. You usually have some fairly strong reactions to the idea of Smoove getting anything remotely near a max contract. I was concerned for your health, buddy, honest I was. Really. Seriously. Actually, I’m just picking on you. For what it’s worth the Dark Karma personality is gone (for now, anyway) and the normal, humorous Ray (which IS my real name actually) is back. It’ll be okay, I promise. Roll with the punches, bro’, they aren’t real.

Ken, some good thoughts. And you’re right. There’s really not much that I can say that doesn’t mirror the things many of you have said over the years, or that we’ve discussed and hashed out. Sometimes that really is the beauty of dialogue. Look how much we influence each other.

RichBrave, miss ya man. Take that recovery slow, easy, and on schedule. We’re waitin’ on ya. We’ll keep your seat warm and your drink of choice cold.

SalimFan, a good cop always appreciates back-up. Thanks bro’.

Stevo!

Does this mean we’re not friends? You know, I just don’t think I could go on if I thought we weren’t friends. (Puts twin pistols on the table)There. Now, we can be friends again. And yes, that line is from the movie Tombstone, spoken by the ever-versatile Val Kilmer.

So, since you acknowledge that this is the internet and not reality, then you surely understand that you couldn’t possibly know anything about my character, right? As for my name change, you’re not making sense. Why would I want it to be a topic if I didn’t expect people to know, eh? Well, if they didn’t know then….they certainly do NOW, thanks to youuuuuuu! Geez, what are you, internet paparazzi? I guess that would explain the hate…

Oh, guess what? Sautee called me on my cell phone right after my firs “Dark Karma” post, suspecting that it was me. Isn’t that neat? Oh, and Newkid asked on the blog, too. Then there was MannyT. Gee, I guess people did notice my stunt (which is all it was).

One thing that you’re right about, though: Much of what I do on here IS a joke. That would be my intention. You know, the whole “Daily News” nonsense? So thanks for noticing!! Please write again….

Cheers!

By ray

July 5, 2008 9:11 PM | Link to this

The free agency stuff is actually starting to be kind of fun. I see Philadelphia is going in every which direction. Makes sense that they didn’t extend an offer sheet to Josh. Too many people are showing up on their radar right now. Why tie yourself up with one major (or even two major) offe sheets when you’re not entirely certain about just who the best fit is, or who’s really available.

It would absolutely suck to tender offer sheets to both Joshes, then find out later that you might have been able to work out a deal and land guys like Krstic, Maggette, or Biedrins…who might actually be better fits alongside guys like Dalembert. After all, Golden State is probably very nearly in full panic mode, and there’s just no telling who can be gotten from them. Of course, the real trick to everything involving the Warriors is what Nellie thinks. That and Philly could realistically lose Iguodala. Although truthfully, I’m not sure they aren’t just trying to find very good compliments to his game. Who knows?

You know, I’m really just over the whole Sixers thing. I forgot: other teams are interested in our guys. I wish we were showing an interest in some people. Actually, I wish I knew more about any possible interest we’re showing. We could be on the peripheral edges, and it’s just being kept quiet. Again, who knows?

In the meantime, I read a few interesting tidbits about Patrick O’ Bryant and Brian Butch on Hoopshype. Apparently the Celtics were working the two of them out, along with some other centers. According to the article, O’Bryant was having difficulty guarding Butch (seems he had some issues with conditioning), but otherwise showed some solid footwork and what not. Read the article. I want to find out more about Butch. He’s supposed to be on our summer league team, isn’t he? I forgot what it was, but his name was mentioned (I think by Sund) in connection with us somehow. Time to hit the search bar and a few sites. Need to occupy myself while waiting for something to happen on our end…

By ray

July 5, 2008 9:24 PM | Link to this

Man. Draft Express needs to get with it. Tried digging up some stuff on Brian Butch and the last thing they had was October of last year. All they had to say was that he’s not very athletic, but is mobile enough. Nothing at all about his defensive capabilities, but he can be a good rebounder. He works and plays very hard, and is one hell of a shooter, all the way out to 3 point range.

So. I wonder how he played this past season? Back to digging around….

By ray

July 5, 2008 9:29 PM | Link to this

Okay, read some more articles. Everything I’m reading says this guy is a project. No spank-you Mr. Help-Helperton. We have had plenty of projects to deal with (still got some, too). If a project it must be, then a first round draft pick spank-you very much. Moving right along…

By HHoops

July 5, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this

Ken Strickland

If I were the Hawks owner and I wanted to keep Smooth, I would decide what I thought I could get him to sign for and offer that contract to him as soon as possible. I would convince him that we wanted to keep him and he was in our long range plans. I would also make sure that he understood that I was not offering him a MAX CONTRACT at this point because I had plans to sign other FA so we could have a team that was able to contend for a championship. By saving some money on Smooth’s contract, hopefully would help us in getting other players signed. I would also use my players to talk to FA that we were going after to help sell what we are trying to do. I think Hawks players would really appreciate being asked to help convince other players to come and be a part of what the Hawks are trying to develop! My players would understand that this is not my team, but the Hawks are OUR TEAM and they are an important part of the Hawks Family!

All of us like to be made to feel important!

By I rarely (except for today) post

July 5, 2008 10:14 PM | Link to this

KirkinGa, I knew there’d be SOMEBODY tryin’ to call me out, for axin’ fo’ some enta’tainment, as well as wins. I guess you would have loved Fratello’s Cavs. Win at all costs, even at the rate of sending the entire arena into Zzzzzz-Land!

I’m no proponent of mediocrity. It stanks! I want to see the Hawks win, in an exciting manner. (Reading Between the Lines…by keeping the Electrifying Josh Smith rattling rims and rejecting opposing shots, all with the greatest of ease….in a Hawks uniform.) I’m simply campaigning, (probably to some of the choir, as well as deaf ASG ears) for the Hawks to keep my favorite athlete on their roster!

Even the sinister Vick was exciting. Both teams knew they had a shot, when he would take off and run. Whisper towards him, then recover his fumble. Don’t, and he’s GONE!

You provide a lot of good feedback to the blog. I went to school with a kid named Kirk…A.Kirk. Good kid.

Peace, bro.

By SalimFan

July 5, 2008 10:44 PM | Link to this

ROFL!!! Ray, No Problem heh. Besides stevo and I go Waaay back lol.

Yeah i’m tierd of the sixers deal too, but you gotta love the way they do business. Shrwed, up-front, and straight to the point. They don’t waste any time. .Considering how restless Philly fans are that’s defenetly a good thing for them.

Here’s the first Butch article I posted last week

Doesn’t mention Sund directly, but I like the fact that Sund seems to be a more active scouter than Billy was.

From the very sparse videos that I was able to find on you tube, I didn’t like what I saw. I’d defently rather sign kwame.

He’s also had some injury problems in college. He dislocated his elbow. Now I know that If you dislocate certain parts of your body (Like your shoulder) they have a tendency to keep getting dislocated over and over again (Kendrick Perkins). Apparently the injued limb never fully recovers…

Anyway, it’s his elbow so it’s an exception. It probably won’t happen again.

…….yup digging sounds good…..

By doc

July 5, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this

RICHBRAVE proud you are still thinking about us. be well dude, talk soon. maybe we will have something definitive by the time you are back.

kirknga what dare say are the important components that the suns got in the jj deal? come on, where do you get off as it was diaw and a 15th pick in this years draft that is a young big that wont be ready to play for several years.? the other mind you was a trade for money where they gave the rights to rondo to boston was it not? to add to your absurd comment, most argue within the phoenix area that they may have allowed the piece that would have taken them to the finals and beyond to have kept jj.

that is also the argument for keeping the home grown and productive talent and very young guy with energy that you wont be able to duplicate in any form. i know you want a winner but to lose josh smith will not be the old “addition by subtraction” and the stupidity of the suns and their own arrogance much like being displayed by your hawks is going to backfire just like it did in phoenix if they arent careful. that is what is to be learned from that mistake, not a pick that we might get to use in three years which is what phoenix got. the fact they got diaw they could have been picked up for nothing as he would have been cut. now they owe him a very overblown 8 mil a year. yeah right, they did that one well.

kirknga, some of your comments are right on and then you make one of those brain cramps and i got to wonder where you went buddy. care to explain how the sign and trade of jj helped them and we will all laugh heartily at you instead of with you. valuable assets! funny man, dude, very funny or are you just being contentious or the devil’s advocate?

all that said, all thus far is pure speculation about what may happen and thus far the hawks havent given us anything real yet so it is all fun and jabber at the liars table.

oh yeah a loud DING!

By ray

July 5, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

SalimFan, I would have to concur with your opinion on Butch and Kwame Brown.

I just want to see who else we’re interested in. It would give us something else to do besides having the same damn arguments we always have (only the bloggers change sometimes).

By SalimFan

July 5, 2008 11:01 PM | Link to this

HHoops, Man I WANNA JOIN YOUR TEAM!!!! You had me convinced lol.

Ken, Add HHoops to our group of blog owners. This guy’s money! If we had to pick someone to sell rat poison to rats I’d defenetly choose him lol.

By Ken Strickland

July 5, 2008 11:09 PM | Link to this

HHOOPS-what you said would make perfect sense if your intention was to retain Smoove. It’s not too late for them to pull it off, if that’s their intention. I have’t been made aware of any other Hawks offer to him since he rejected their $45M offer. Remember, these SAASG clowns told us fans they intended to keep our core 8 intact. Yet, they’ve done little but wait for someone else to make a move, since Smoove turned their initial offer down. Actions speak louder than words, and their inaction speaks volumes to me about their real intentions.

RAY-that can be said for most of us regulars. It’s hard to find something new when it comes to Woodson and the SAASG. After all, they are predictable and redundant. It really hurts to think these fools wouldn’t hesitate to resign Woodson, but would seriously consider letting Smoove and/or Chills go. These incompetent fools, the SAASG, would make a total incompetent like GW Bush appear competent.

By Jacob the Church Mouse

July 5, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this

Maybe they should change their name to ASG proudly presents…The Atlanta Clowns!

Sorry…I’ll just DING the bell for myself, a few times.

Ding!! Ding! Doink..oops, hit the wrong button.

Ding!

By HHoops

July 5, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this

Salim Fan & Ken Strickland,

So what happens to J. Smith if he does not get a better offer than the 45 M from the Hawks? Philly might not offer if they can get a player they like better.

If J. Smith has to accept the orginal 45 M offer, the Hawks owners will look like genious’!!!

By SalimFan

July 5, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this

Ray, I agree. All of this umdrafted signing junk is BS. That’s not what woody’s asking for, and he’s not going to play them anyway

I want names of PROVEN vets. As much as i’d hate to comply with anything woody suggests, there are some very nice vets out there that i’d be happy to have on this roster (i’ve mentioned them all before of course). Sekou’s told us Jarvis and Kwame have been thrown around Hawks HQ(of course we THE FANS had them pegged from the start). BUt that can’ be it. Especially as far as shooters are concerned. You’re not gonna get a Mike Miller but a lot of these guys are just as good, and cheaper.

By That won't happen

July 5, 2008 11:42 PM | Link to this

hhops that won’t happen. Did you just say Hawks owners and genius in the same (hiccup), excuse me, same (hiccup) dang, sorry about that!

I’m trying to ask you, did you just use Hawks owners (hiccup) whoops, there I go again, and genius in the same (hiccup) sentence?

My (hiccup) bad, if I have mis(hiccup) interpreted (hiccup) your (hiccup) post.

Go (hiccup) Hawks.

By MannyT

July 6, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this

Why I really want Brian Butch on our summer league team.

We need a big and we need a shooter. While he definitely has flaws, he does fit both needs. Versatility matters.

It’s not like we are going to go out and draft new players for the summer team. Make sure Al & AC are healthy and getting good summer exercise. If we can find a guy or two for the end of the bench that is great.

Another BB article

Even if Woody won’t play these guys in November, Drew has to play them in July. Let’s see what they can do—whoever they are.

Good CRAP starts with an opportunity.

By CoachRob

July 6, 2008 12:31 AM | Link to this

DOES IT REALLY MATTER ABOUT JS AND JC? THE HAWKS SUCK AND will continue to do so!!! Why do you guys put yourself through all this? The hawks will never regain what they had in the late 80’s, early 90’s!!

The Hawks are a step above the Clippers in my opinion as far as how the team has been run lately. No one in the front office truly cares about the Hawks or the fans, or they would have already locked up both players and given the community confidence about the team and where they are headed, but they didn’t for a reason, they DON’T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND DON’T CARE!!!

By Jacob the Church Mouse

July 6, 2008 1:00 AM | Link to this

Ding!

By SalimFan

July 6, 2008 1:15 AM | Link to this

MannyT, Nice find with that article. I really hope he’s good.

By ray

July 6, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this

I don’t know who this person is that posted under the name That Won’t Happen, but whoever it is has my ROFL!!!

Bravo!

Doc, from your last post- a very loud DING….you called it right.

HHops, Only thing is, if Smoove doesn’t want to sign for that money and nobody gives him a higher offer, then he probably doesn’t want to be here. Which means he’s gone via sign-n-trade due to a trade demand. Either that, or he signs a one year offer and becomes unrestricted the following year. Which means we lose him for nothing. I don’t see it happening. Even if he ends up with 46 million instead of 45, the number is coming up. Trust me, somebody will offer the kid more than 45. Especially if Hawks management sticks to their guns on it. Of course, I could be dead wrong…

MannyT, upon further review, I cannot disagree with that comment. Unfortunately, due to our coach….Butch would likely remain at the end of our bench. I wanna see the guy play, though. YouTube videos of him weren’t exactly a ringing endorsement…

By Ken Strickland

July 6, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

HHOOPS-that’s not going to happen. There will certainly be a team that will offer more than $45M for a chance to get a player like Smoove. You see, he’s more than just a young developing player or a rising talent, he’s a revenue generator. A lot of NBA players make spectacular OFF plays, but he makes spectacular OFF & DEF plays. How many NBA players consistently make spectacular DEF plays, plus assists, rebounds and high flying dunks that can’t be challenged. At 22yrs of age, he’s already a gm changing force in this league. Fans can see his determination and dedication in the off season to work hard, improve his gm and increase his potential gm changing impact. This reminds me of MJordan. Smoove doesn’t have his maturity, or his fundamental skill level, but he doesn’t lack his willingness to work hard towards improving himself. Once Smoove learns to harnass his vast physical, mental and emotional talents, watch out.

I remember when Hakeem the Dream first entered the league. He was mostly potential and physical talent. He worked hard in the off season to harnass and develop all of his physical and mental skills, and the rest is history. In the end, Smoove will generate far more revenue than any franchise shrewd enough to sign him would have to spend.

These fools we have for owners can’t see that far into the future or appreciate his potential for this franchise. They proved their lack of vision and understanding when they resigned Woodson.

By doc

July 6, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

well put ken, i hope there will be a turning poitn that will be the ah ha moment that the owners get it. i have been waiting a long time and said many times bk and woody’s issues started there.

it is also chilling to watch how they treat the other franchise and its fans. apparently levinson took the holier than though route at the fan tawn hall meeting that has left some folks with a bad taste in their mouths enough to say they can get more satisfaction by watching the gwinnett minor league team instead of the BASG product and dealing with an attitude of we know a lot more than you.

unfortunately just because they have money doesnt mean they are any smarter than the rest UNLESS they made it in the nba business or have delivered the product well. we all know it is folly to suggest they did or to suggest it because they got the bucks. now i am free to let them spend it their way just as i as a fan am free to spend it my way without all the guilt folks try to spend if you really are a fan you need to support it in times of good or bad.

By ILL-Logical

July 6, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

Went to the historic Atlanta Dream game last night and it was great to be inside all of that positive energy and excitement at Phillips Arena again.

I had not expeienced that since the Hawks vs the Lakers last season, and it made me think of how great it would be if the Hawks really got down to business and put a consistant winning product on the floor.

The crowd was made up of families;young people; seniors ; couples and was very diverse. But we were all bound together by the excitement on the floor and we cheered until the end and beyond!

I liked that and would love to see the Hawks create their own Dream and then fullfill it.

By terrell barron

July 6, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

ILL-Logical, it’s 1 win. How can you be excited over 1 win? lol! Sorta reminds me of Cam Cameron going crazy when Miami stunned Baltimore. It’s 1 freaking win. lol!

By Ken Strickland

July 6, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

ILL-LOGICAL-glad to see you enjoyed yourself so much. It only takes spending a little time reading and observing the fans on these blogs to get an idea of our concern and willingness to support this team. Add the obvious support Atlanta fans gave during last seasons playoff run and you can see that spending the money needed to keep this team together will be rewarded financially.

DOC-As usual, I agree with you totally. I think I understood what BK was trying to do. The Braves have made a very successful habit of consistently using high draft picks on pitchers, developing them, and then trading them for what the team needs. The Trailblazers have done a simular thing with BIGS over 6’10” and are in a position to trade their excess for what they need.

As we’ve seen, Woodson is not a HC that’s comfortable developing young players. Aside from some of his draft selections, chosing Woodson to carryout his plan was his major miscalculation. Woodson obviously reached his limit with BK’s approach and insisted he get him some vets, especially at PG. I still believe BK passed on all of those PG’s because of Woodson’s insistence on having a vet run his team. Look at how he overutilized vet PG’s that were either washed up, injured, or had limited skills. While, at the same time, he definitely underutilized his rookie PG’s(RIvey, SStaudamire and ALaw).

BK assembled a team of greyhounds that was built for speed, while Woodson wanted bloodhounds that are slower and more methodical. Isn’t it ironic that BK sealed his own fate by acquiring Bibby, the quality vet PG Woodson has been crying for all along.

By kirknga

July 6, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

I rarely (except for today) post

No. Heck No! To the Fratello Cavs. My skins crawls just to think about those teams. They did not enjoy a long playoff streak either.

Yes. Heck Yes! To the Fratello Hawks and to the Wilkens Hawks as well. Winning, in the end, is always more exciting than losing.

Someone, not you I don’t believe, said that they wanted excitement over winning, others say they pay their money just to see Josh Smith run and jump and block shots! Little or no emphasis on winning.

My take is, that if you love the Hawks, then you know winning is the key to support and support feeds success. We’ve had years of apathy now and I’ve found nothing exciting until this years playoff series.

I’m not convinced that the maintaining the status quo will return us to the playoffs. As long as we win, I don’t care what the Hawks do, with whom they do it, or on what time table they do it. Just Win Baby!

doc Are you seriously revising history? Diaw played very well for the Suns while Amare was out, so well he signed a fat contract as the result of his play. I believe that to be the consensus within the league and even here on this blog as many were in shock at his transformation as a Sun.

The Suns also got two first round picks. They also freed up money. To say that the JJ deal was somehow one-sided is hard to support. Ask Belkin if he thought the Hawks were getting away with something! There was debate on this blog as to whether or not the Hawks were giving up too much for JJ. People are still saying “I told you so” about that deal.

So my point was people who refer to the JJ deal as example of the Hawks getting over on the Suns because of a front loaded contract are forgetting about what the Hawks gave up in that deal. Likewise, to assume that the Hawks would not receive value in exchange for Smith in a sign and trade is also fanciful given cap restrictions.

ray Um, ok, well thank you for your concern. I think it’s wonderful the feelings you inspire here on the blog.

By HB Ando

July 6, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

I think a lot of folks here are unnecessarily torturing themselves with concern over Josh Smith not being re-signed (though self-torture seems to be a prerequisite for following the Hawks and a relentless particpation on this very blog). If finances dictate that someone has to move on, he’s simply the last guy that would happen to.

If they have to match an offer higher than they wanted to fund, it’s impact will be in keeping Childress. Or Bibby. Or Marvin. Or Zaza.

This groundhog has been beaten beyond recognition.

We simply do not know what the payroll budget is, for next season. I still don’t believe it’s the $65-67 million that would be necessary to keep the core intact (assuming realistic contract ranges for the Josh’s).

My logic tells me the same thing every time I think or read about it: If they can’t, or won’t, spend the projected amount necessary, then who, of the possible players, is most likely to go? In order, I’d say Bibby (arguably at the downside of his ability, and overpaid, as well as having maximum market value as an expiring $14.5 million salary), then Marvin (unless either Josh goes, he’s a starting caliber player, who now joins Childress as a Hawk who projects to come off the bench, unless Horford is going to start at center this season; MISTAKE) or Childress (who’s status may well be dictated by the contract size of Smith, and the currently unknown roster budget, for next season).

I’ve been using the term “interchangeable parts”, as they relate to players as assets, since the inception of this blog, and in the context of building balanced rosters. Suggesting that any of these players may be moving on is more about making the numbers work, and optimzing the market value of any or all of them, as we seek to improve the structure of the roster.

I believe that any time a player is of more value to another team, than he is to your own, in such a way that another team is willing to pay him more than your teams’ salary structure can justify, then you need to leverage that market value, and trade that player in return for strengthening your teams’ areas of weakness.

Josh Childress continues to fit that scenario (though the prove of that opinion will be determined by his receiving a term sheet that either meets, or exceeds, what the Hawks can afford, or are willing to, pay for him).

As far as Bibby’s stature, as a current player, goes, there’s simply very differing, subjective opinions that exist here. I continue to maintain that he has always been overrated, and his numbers were always a product of playing in a high octane offensive system. I think his recent injury history, combined with his always being an average, at best, defender, and further effected by the fact that he’s now north of 30, suggest he on the downside of his career. I believe his contract is way out of line with his optimal production, and his age, defensive limitations and injury history, all point towards less than optimal production.

To me, that all means that he’s more valuable, to the Hawks (with their team salary concens seemingly very real), as a tradeable asset, rather than as next years’ starting point guard.

These discussions always turn circular. So let’s try to place these issues in a structured context.

If you believe that the Hawks can afford to keep the core 8 together, as Sund has suggested they’d like to do, then your only issue is whether you’d like to see the remaining players on the roster used to clear some salary space, or in trade for more complimentary players. I think it’s outlandish to see the obvious math that comes from projecting that keeping the core together will require an unprecedented financial commitment from this ownership group (and increase from last years’ payroll of over $10 million), AND suggest we will then get a few reasonably priced free agents, to balance out the ongoing, and obvious, holes in the current roster. Because now your talking about a roster that would be looking north of $70 million ($65-67 million for the core 8, and additional contracts of “reasonably priced” free agents, to strengthen the bench).

If you DO NOT believe that a $65-67 million payroll is realistic, given concerns about the ASG’s finances and willingness to spend that kind of money, AND you logically acknowledge that you CANNOT keep the core 8 together without spending that amount, then WHO do you think is/are the most likely candidates to be moved? You have to pick someone, if you agree with the basic premises of limited budget and the easily defined projection for keeping the core 8 together.

Who do you keep? Who do you trade?

By kirknga

July 6, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

HB Ando

What a great post at 2:38. Reasonable, analytical,straight to the point, no drama.

I would only disagree with your analysis of Bibby. I have seen others comment about letting him go as well.

I believe we forget how desperate we had become for a quality point guard. It wasn’t happening with AJ, or Lue, and Acie isn’t there yet.

Along came Bibby, and we saw what a difference a quality point can make. True that he was a disappointment in the playoffs, but I believe the guy was hurt.

I believe we are going to see a healthy Bibby this year and he will once again be among the 6-7 PG’s in the league. Whether he leaves depends upon Acie. If Acie dosn’t show he can run a team, then Bibby should be kept.

Who to trade you ask? Well, anyone who has value is the answer. At this point Marvin seems to be as good a candidate as any. Again this assuming your premise about ASG and the budget.

The Hawks don’t appear to be courting anyone which leads me to believe they really do intend to resign Smith and Childress. If that is the case does adding a Kwame Brown and Jarvis Hayes get you above 37 wins?

I would’ve like to have seen Duhon join the team because he is a gritty player. Too late now. I like Scott Pollard for the bench, he does the dirty work and is a good low post defender, very physical. O’Bryant would also be an interesting addition. I think he isn’t well suited for Nelson’s style of play and would develop nicely with the Hawks. I like O’Bryant over Brown. I like Mutombo as well. He has played well defensively for Houston, even though he still has bad hands.

I think the 5 is the key spot, not the 4 as many here are arguing. Horford needs to play the 4. Add a center and Smith to the 4? I could get behind something like that.

The Hawks do have options here. Again I think we forget that it was likely Smith’s agents who told him not sign any contract with the Hawks until he tested the market. This week should be interesting as we should see at least one offer.

By I rarely post

July 6, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

KirknGA, good point. I see where you’re coming from. You too, Ando. I’ve got a case of ice cold beer and some Texas Hold ‘Em callin’ my name.

Peace, y’all.

By ray

July 6, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

The Excitement Factor

Let me clarify something (as I thought I had before). I don’t know who said that excitement was better than wins (or if anybody really did say that…ahem), but it wasn’t me. But I’m bored, and I figure this particular subject could use a little elaboration (warning: another long post!):

Excitement is what sells tickets (and jerseys and everything else). Excitement is what KEEPS fans around when getting to the next level isn’t happening. Excitement is what you BETTER have when you can’t win. It’s easy to say that winning is more important than anything else. To quote somebody else (heh, heh): “No great insight there…”. It’s kind of like saying “Having more than enough food to eat is better than not having enough to eat.”

Let’s not get it twisted. This is a business, first and foremost. “Winning” isn’t to the fan what it is to the owner. To the owner, winning is money. Since there are what, 31 teams in the league? Guess what that means? At the end of the season and playoffs, there is ONE winner and THIRTY losers. There are losers to a lesser degree (those who made the finals or even the conference finals) who were almost winners. Then there are those who make the playoffs and actually make a splash (almost made the conference finals). Then there are the honorable mentions (those who just made the playoffs…didn’t make it out of the first round). Then there are just plain losers after that. Guess which teams make the most money (which is closer to what winning means to most owners)? The exciting teams. Teams like Golden State. Sure winning is the most important thing. But what is happening while you’re NOT winning? What motivation do you have for the consumer? How do you continue to effectively sell your product? You sell it with excitement. Excitement is the element that helps the consumer forget (at least momentarily) about the overall quality of the product, and gives the illusion that the product can and will be even better than advertised (or better than reality suggests it will be). Did the Warriors make the playoffs last season? No. But you better believe they were selling out the house game after game. Why? Who wouldn’t go to watch three 20-point per game guys go to work? Who wouldn’t want to watch Baron Davis and Monta Ellis do their thing? You have to admit, Nellie may like his small-ball, but he puts one heck of an up-tempo, exciting team on the floor.

Excitement. It’s what an owner wants when the winning ain’t happenin’. And if you look around the league, lots of teams aren’t where they want to be. Few are. Winning is the best thing. Excitement helps you stay alive when you don’t have a boat and have to tread water. It keeps the revenue coming. Without the revenue, you suddenly don’t have the money that it takes to upgrade things (like in the case of the Atlanta Spirit Group). Or in some cases, you end up reaching into your own pocket, paying hard cash to invest in a product that should give you good returns and a decent profit margin in time. For example: Donald Sterling finally spending the money to get Baron Davis (his ticket sales and prices will BOTH go up the very minute the contract is officially signed, trust me) and then if he convinces Elton to stay (I think with Baron aboard, it’s a done deal). Or Paul Allen giving Kevin Pritchard the go ahead on one batch of shrewd moves after another (if you think the Clyde Drexler/Terry Porter/Cliff Robinson/Jerome Kersey days were something…keep an eye out for this NEW Portland dynasty that’s in the makings).

Finally, excitement is something that other players are drawn to. Every player wants to be part of a winner. But winners don’t usually need much. It’s the teams that are one player away from being that winner that are looking to add that one or two key players. It’s teams that have that excitement and “almost there” factor that help themselves in the free agent market. When a player can envision himself being part of, and adding to, an exciting situation…he will be tempted to at least consider it. The player looks at the situation like this: “I come here to an already exciting situation…and I can help them win, which means I become a winner myself!”

Come on, admit it. You hear them say it all the time when they sign with a new team. “I’m very excited to be here and I’m going to help them win.” That’s what it’s all about….well, except for that little thing called money.

But riddle me this: Why did Baron Davis leave bigger money on the table in Warrior-land to go to the Clippers? Uh-huh. You know why. Because excitement has it limitations. It’s what is supposed to get you by in the lean times. It’s what is supposed to help you toward winning. Unfortunately, the Warriors organization seems more committed to fielding an exciting team that it does a winning team. Baron got tired of that. The team has been exciting for years. One special made-it-to-the-second-round playoff appearance surrounded by no playoff appearances isn’t going to cut it.

Want another example? Philadelphia and Allen Iverson. You’re kidding yourself if you don’t think they managed to pack the seats in all those years (and maintain respectable levels of revenue) any other way. Iverson just about single-handedly kept that franchise going. But eventually, too many years of excitement (one year of Finals appearance) and not enough product substance….and they had to cut ties and start over.

Now, you could say that this last part was contrary to my “excitement” presentation. Well, no it’s not. It’s proof that I know the difference between exciting and winning. It’s putting things into perspective. I believe that the element of excitement is very necessary (especially when you’re not winning). I also believe that it has a role to play and should never be something that takes the place of winning.

Inevitably, somebody will totally misinterpret this and say that I am suggesting that having an exciting team is better than having a winning team. Well, some people just can’t read (or understand). “You can take a horse to water…” and so forth. To say what I just took 5 million words to say: Excitement is a key ingredient, but not the meat of the main course. It’s something that always needs to be there. Excitement SELLS, which is something anybody in entertainment understands…or they’re not in entertainment for long.

The Atlanta Spirit Group would do well to consider this (not MY WORDS, but the concepts that I am discussing). If you can’t afford to field a winning team anytime soon, you better make sure you’re fielding an exiting one, or you make no money. On the flip side of the coin, you have one excitement factor to build on, and it’s a two-edged sword. We made the playoffs and took the eventual NBA champs to the seventh game. But guess what? The excitement is already fading, because we don’t even have the slightest clue whether or not we’ll even see a team as good as last year’s squad, which was only good for 37 wins. A step back here with not discernible reason to believe that larger steps forward will be taken in the very near future means BAD NEWS for all involved.

Your move.

By ray

July 6, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

Ando,

I have to agree about Bibby, though it may or may not be for all the same reasons. However, we have to get a decent pg if Bibby goes. Acie isn’t ready to take over…a few injuries and our wonderful head coach have seen to that. As you say, Bibby benefited from a high-octane, offense-first system in Sacramento. I notice that Woody has said he wants Bibby to get the full experience of his “system” from camp on up until the season. That worries me. What is Woodson’s system, anyway? Walk it up the floor? We never have had, and still don’t have the personnel for that! Is Bibby going to thrive in this so-called “system”? How? And Sund is saying all the wrong things with Woodson still being the coach. Our roster is NOT set up for that half court system. Al, Josh, and Marvin represent probably our best starting frontcourt, and they have been (and will continue to be) man-handled in that offensive set. Just not enough size or enough of the right skills. Of course, if you have a get-rid-of-Josh-Smith fetish, then this entire argument is clearly in your favor….(not YOU Ando, I know better than that). But I can certainly think of some who do think this way.

By the way, isn’t it entertaining as hell to converse with those who seem to have so much faith in the ASG, and don’t seem to have understood a single damn thing you had to say about the budget/financial part of things? Heh…

Kirknga,

I think the 5 is the key spot, not the 4 as many here are arguing. Horford needs to play the 4. Add a center and Smith to the 4? I could get behind something like that.

1)Man, you should have been here at the before the beginning of the season all the way through the half-way point. We argued up and down about the 5 position and how Horford is really a 4, but has filled in admirably all season long at the 5. Actually, the 4 spot has never been the point of contention. It’s been the 5 all along, but some people see the job Horford did while playing out of position and to them, him at the 5 is a foregone conclusion. Thusly, the attention has gone to Josh, who is currently at the 4 and up for a contract. We’ve “discussed” the center issue more than most of us care to recall. It’ll come up again…

2)Uh, you meant to say move Smith to the 3, right? You said add a center and Smith to the 4. If you meant the 3, then you are echoing a long-time sentiment that Ando has had. However, there is another chain of reasoning that follows behind it. And that would be the chain of reasoning that suggests that we would then need to add a 5 who is a capable outside shooter. Again, something that has been discussed in great detail here, and will likely be brought up again. I kinda see the redundancy in bringing in a low-post only type of center. All of the sudden, you have three guys crowded into the paint, none of which have a reliable outside shot yet. And then we’re right back at ground zero with JJ and Bibby being the only outside threats. Hmmmm. Not the best situation, but perhaps not the worst either.

By kirknga

July 6, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

But riddle me this: Why did Baron Davis leave bigger money on the table in Warrior-land to go to the Clippers? Uh-huh. You know why. Because excitement has it limitations. It’s what is supposed to get you by in the lean times. It’s what is supposed to help you toward winning. Unfortunately, the Warriors organization seems more committed to fielding an exciting team that it does a winning team. ray

If you’re going to give a riddle isn’t it tradition to let the receiver of the riddle answer or at least attempt to answer. I mean, what’s the point of a riddle if you give out the answer?

But since you did answer your own riddle, the answer sounds suspiciously like the point I was making. Namely that it’s about winning, not excitement.

I will note that the Hawks, a team that features the “exciting” Josh Smith was 16th in attendance in 07 and 20th last season.

I don’t care about Philly. I care about Atlanta. And I know that Atlanta fans support winners. Be it whatever team, if it wins it gets the most support. If it loses, then there is apathy at best. Yes there will be some die hard fans no matter what, but in Atlanta, if you’re an owner and you want to make money, then you put a winner in front of the fans.

Again, excitement is a secondary issue for me. I was just acknowledging that that is not the case for all.

Thanks for the missive though, I have no doubt that it holds value for those who are interested in excitement.

By MannyT

July 6, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

If we don’t get that dominant center this season (likely) and we keep Bibby (uncertain), there is an opportunity to do unto others what is being done to us this summer…because bad knee Bynum wants a max contract

With Bibby’s deals expiring, we could offer Bynum the max (if healthy) and still have Zaza’s slot available for a PG. That doesn’t even count the 7Mil that might be available if Marvin doesn’t progress to get his tender offer.

As for Brian Butch or anyone else on our summer league team, they automatically won’t be in good with Woody because they are young players. The exception is Al. However, if there is no money left in the REAL budget, you fill the bench with minimum salary folks.

This summer, the goal is to have a slightly better team. We have to be mostly defensive with our salary cap space. Next summer is the time that we should have cap space to attack.

Slow moves now don’t have to be PAIN.

By kirknga

July 6, 2008 6:23 PM | Link to this

1)Man, you should have been here at the before the beginning of the season all the way through the half-way point. We argued up and down about the 5 position and how Horford is really …

I’ve been here since the beginning of this blog. I lurk more than I comment. Other blogs I comment more than I lurk. In either case, I’m not new. I am well aware of the heated debates that have taken place.Earlier I spoke about the JJ- Diaw trade. I didn’t say much about then, but that doesn’t mean I wasn’t here and aware of the debates that took place.

We’ve “discussed” the center issue more than most of us care to recall. It’ll come up again

Well the “we” you are talking doesn’t include everybody who reads the blog or cares to comment. The subject is basketball so one would imagine the center position would be a topic from time to time. Surely more than one person can have the same thought and comment on it.

Again, I was answering the questions posed by Ando. I thought it was an excellent post, very direct basketball-related, no fluff, no drama, so I thought I’d comment.

And yes, Smith to the 3. My mistake.Thanks so much.

By ray

July 6, 2008 7:12 PM | Link to this

Kirk, did you miss the second to last paragraph in my 4:24 post? Please don’t tell me this applies to you. Either that or you’re just being a smart-a$$ (something I’m guilty of quite often). I’m betting on it being the latter.

Come on, now. You know that “riddle me this” is little more than an expression. Smart-a$$.

I will note that the Hawks, a team that features the “exciting” Josh Smith was 16th in attendance in 07 and 20th last season.

Correct. That’s because it’s largely not an exciting team, it’s a team with an exciting player, who we have all agreed is not yet a star player. That would be the difference between the Iverson teams and this one (not to mention coaching, and they won more games).

Oddly enough, winning doesn’t necessarily translate into attendance or the vice versa. It’s kinda screwy like that. Otherwise how you could explain New York being in the top ten in attendance this past season? They were an embarrassment to the city and the league. Miami had the worst record. Guess where they ranked in attendance? 8th. Yep. Then you add a team like New Orleans, who tied for 4th most wins in the League, and their attendance was lower than ours. Of course, you could argue demographics (and natural disasters) and other factors, but it doesn’t change one fact: this isn’t an exact science.

I know you don’t care about Philly, but here’s an interesting thing to consider when looking up attendance figures: When Iverson was there, they were a more exciting team (yes, there’s that word again). In fact, they were a top 3 to top 5 team. Since he was traded, attendance plummeted dramatically. Look it up, you’ll see I’m right. And only one year were they really all that good of a team (when they went to the Finals). But anyway, you did say you weren’t interested in all this so I’ll stop.

…there will be some die hard fans no matter what, but in Atlanta, if you’re an owner and you want to make money, then you put a winner in front of the fans.

True. But what if you’re not doing that because you don’t have the money or are unwilling to spend what it takes to put a winning team on the floor?

Better yet, do you feel like the ASG is putting a winning team on the floor? What do you think is the best way to do that? If you’re willing to believe that money limitations are a real live possibility, then what’s the best way to make it along with what we’ve got to work with? Just askin’.

Thanks for the missive though, I have no doubt that it holds value for those who are interested in excitement. Heh. If you’re interested in winning, then you’re interested in having something to be excited about. Unless of course, you’re practicing your poker face at games. Will you give a golf clap and whisper “Bravo”?

By ray

July 6, 2008 7:51 PM | Link to this

Kirk, what is your beef?

Am I supposed to assume that every person who pops in has been here this whole time, and just not seen fit to contribute comments very much? Only one guy has come here and said as much right away: the guy who posts as I rarely post. He left no room for assumption. Last I looked, assuming that somebody is somewhat new wasn’t a crime. Okay, I take your word for it: you’ve been here all the time, but haven’t seen fit to comment very much. No problem. Pardon me for sharing some amusing memories that you clearly were witness to.

I don’t recall saying that any of your comments were irrelevant or simply repeats. Just that they are indeed similar to others I’ve heard. In fact, I was attempting to discuss that further with you, while alluding to the idea that these same discussions will come up again and again. It’s the same thing that Ando complains about: the fact that we’re discussing the same things over and over. It’s just because not much has changed within the organization.

By kirknga

July 6, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

No ray people don’t say riddle me this and immediately say the answer, I’ve never seen that done. Ever.

Why the name calling, surely you aren’t that simple.I have called you now names.

*Kirk, did you miss the second to last paragraph in my 4:24 post? *

I might have because my attention span is limited, I’m on 3 blogs and watching the Braves as well as doing some other things you talk about stuff that, well only you know why you went there( people without money? huh? where that come from?). I try to hang in there as a courtesy, but sometimes people miss things.

If you can show me some evidence attendance isn’t driven by winning(as in Miami) show it and be done with it.

Until that time I’ll look at the attendance figures that show winners at the top,losers at the bottom. That doesn’t mean that those teams at the bottom are not exciting or having exciting players. Is there a team or two(New York) that that doesn’t hold ok. But I see winning teams at the top of the attendance charts.This would hold true for sports in most cities I would guess.

Seattle despite some recent exciting teams(McMillan’s) and some exciting young players(such as Durant) was not well supported and lost it’s franchise.

Isn’t Josh Smith “exciting”, if he is as most would say(including me), then why aren’t the Hawks attendance figures on a similar trajectory Iverson’s Sixersyou mentioned? I would submit to you that the difference is winning and to a lesser degree a player who no one questions superstardom.

Whether it was Fratello’s Hawks, or Wilkens’ Hawks, the fan turned out more than they do now. Those teams had different styles; Fratello’s Air Force was exciting, Wilken’s teams not so much. But both iterations outdrew the current Hawks? It’s winning that draws the most support and creates the excitement.

*. If you’re interested in winning, then you’re interested in having something to be excited about. *

Anyone who has read my posts knows that winning is my primary focus.Why you would want to frame it now as a question(even rhetorically), is known only to you.

Thanks for your response.

By Rofl

July 6, 2008 7:58 PM | Link to this

Kirknga = troll

By HB Ando

July 6, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this

Ray, let’s tie together the question you pose about just what Woodson’s “system” is, and the issue of a franchise seeking to place an emphasis on “excitement”, as a means of selling tickets, versus, or with a slightly higher priority, than a single-minded focus on winning (Detroit’s model).

If the ASG was targeting enhanced ticket sales, via an exciting “product”, wouldn’t logic suggest that Woody would have been let go? Because if there even is an accurate answer to your question about defining Woody’s “system”, it would have to be grounded in a defensive-focused, grind it out style, designed to “win ugly”.

Bibby’s career has been played out on teams that were coached in far “sexier” style. So, you’re questioning of just what Woody is expecting, when he points to enhanced expectations for Bibby, in his system, is more than fair, and is, in my opinion, example number 3,000 of just how cluelessly this organization is being run.

Back when Iverson was clearly on the trading block, there was a spirited debate on what he would bring to the Hawks. My oversimplified opinion was that if the ASG wanted to sell tickets, with a greater emphasis on generating revenues, rather than adding a player who may, or may not, actually enhance their opportunity to be a winning franchise (paired with Carmelo and Camby, Iverson has looked great, but, in my opinion, has reinforced the belief that his presence does not lead to more winning).

I felt then, and would feel the same way now, should the ASG seek a player who brought star power, with a big question mark about improving the Hawks chances of being a winner, they would be well within their rights, as it is a business after all.

Since I’m not convinced that keeping this team intact will lead to better outcomes, in the next few years, it’s hard to get tangled in an argument about whether the organizations’ upcoming decisions are driven by what they perceive as the best chance to win, versus the best chance to sell tickets.

I still think you’d (anybody) be hard-pressed to find any franchise that chose excitement (the Sixers, with Iverson, after their one failed participation in the Eastern Finals) over a legitimate chance to compete for a conference championship, that was able to keep selling tickets, while failing to play .500+ ball.

There’s just nothing exciting about losing, no matter how athletic you look doing it.

I can’t win a predictive argument on how much Bibby has left in the tank, or how much value he will have, should he stay here. I think the near future will support my less than glowing opinion of his current abilities. And, again, I simply don’t see how this “benjamin-challenged” ownership group is going to re-sign both Josh’s and pay Bibby $14.5 million.

I expect the Hawks will seek payroll relief. I expect they will match Smith’s deal, no matter how big it is. I suspect that either Bibby or Childress will have to go, should Smith command a big number.

I’d still offer Marvin for Bargnani, straight up. And I’d still consider any compelling sign-and-trade opportunities for Childress. And I wouldn’t pay Childress, who is still a sixth man, no matter how much folks love what he does, a dime more than the mid-level, given what other types of talent, around the league, are signing for that kind of deal.

I think a replacement for Bibby could be obtained for either Childress, or Bibby himself.

There are a lot of teams that want to position themselves, cap-wise, for free agent runs, in the next two off-seasons. And, optimally, they’d like to do that without taking a big step backwards, on the floor, next year. Bibby provides both to such a team.

I think there are a lot of reasonable deals that could be developed around Bibby. And even if I believed he would really improve us, for a full-season, this upcoming year, I REALLY can’t imagine re-signing him to a multi-year deal (nor have I heard anything from Bibby, his representatives, or the vast internet rumor mill, that suggests this is the place he wants to end his career). And if you either don’t see re-signing him, or believe that he’d be willing to re-sign here, you MUST trade him, and his massive (and massively valuable) contract.

I think I sense, in the folks here who want to keep Bibby next year, a desperate belief that keeping last years’ team together will definitely lead to an improved record, and a likely return to the playoffs.

I don’t adhere to that belief, pointing to the retention of an underwhelming head coach, and a front line that is either woefully undersized (when Horford is the 5, Smith is the 4 and Marvin is the 3), or a front line that is one of the worst shooting in the league (if Zaza is the 5, Horford the 4 and Smith the 3). If they don’t find a starter-quality big, who can shoot, this team will fail to break .500 again.

And if they head towards the trade deadline, with Bibby still here, but a sub-.500 record, they will HAVE to trade his contract, and re-shuffle mid-season, in a way that I think they should be doing this summer.

Time will tell. But the lack of vibe coming out of the organization is eerily familiar, even with Billy gone, and sure feels like another off-season where many good options for change are ignored.

Excitement is swinging a deal that addresses obvious, and recently historic, flaws in the Hawks roster.

I am not excited, and don’t expect that anything is going to happen to change that.

Love to be wrong, but I’m not willing to let the Hawks play Lucy to my Charlie Brown, and convince me to attempt a field goal kick, just as they pull the ball out from under me, yet again.

The onus is on the Hawks to DO something to regain my interest. There’s no reason for me to maintain faith, when acts like extending Woody reinforce that the franchise is still being run without much of a clue.

By ray

July 6, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

Manny, it’s a nice thought. I have to wonder what Kupchak would do to keep Bynum. One thing I think is for certain: they know they need more toughness and size in the post. If Bynum is healthy and remains so this coming season…and performs like he was before injury…they’ll be inclined to keep him, I think. Especially if Kobe’s in his corner. But we’ll see.

You’ll have to pardon me if I’m a bit gun shy with the “next year we’ll have cap space” comments, LOL! That’s something Billy Knight used to say all the time. You’re right though, we seem to be on the defensive. Having a slightly improved team to me means a couple of things:

1)Starters/regulars have improved/expanded their game.

2)Developing the bench for the purpose of utilizing it more…and more effectively

or

3)Adding players to the bench that don’t need development so much…and utilize them effectively.

4)Implementing solid, steady offensive and defensive schemes.

By kirknga

July 6, 2008 8:19 PM | Link to this

Rofl(or whoever you are)

Troll? That’s all you got is calling a name?

By ray

July 6, 2008 9:00 PM | Link to this

Kirk, I honestly wasn’t calling you names. There’s a difference between saying you might be acting like something and flat-out calling you something (which I didn’t do). To add to that, I even said it was something I was guilty of being quite a log (mostly on this blog).

No ray people don’t say riddle me this and immediately say the answer, I’ve never seen that done. Ever.

Okay, so you’ve never heard that. I have, so have other people. Why exactly are you making this an issue? Other than the fact that you clearly do NOT like me or anything I say? Ooops, there I go answering my own questions again. Feel free to correct me if I answered it wrong.

I might have because my attention span is limited, I’m on 3 blogs and watching the Braves as well as doing some other things you talk about stuff that, well only you know why you went there( people without money? huh? where that come from?). I try to hang in there as a courtesy, but sometimes people miss things.

Okay, I gather that you’re not paying complete attention to what you’re reading here. No problem. But if there was something else you were trying to say here, I have NO clue what it was and cannot see what it had to do with our conversation. Again, not a problem.

If you can show me some evidence attendance isn’t driven by winning(as in Miami) show it and be done with it.

I thought I did. Miami, New York, and New Orleans are all exceptions to the general rule of attendance vs. wins. Look at their attendance levels for 2007-2008 and then look at their win/loss records.

Until that time I’ll look at the attendance figures that show winners at the top,losers at the bottom. That doesn’t mean that those teams at the bottom are not exciting or having exciting players. Is there a team or two(New York) that that doesn’t hold ok. But I see winning teams at the top of the attendance charts.This would hold true for sports in most cities I would guess.

You know, you’ve got a great penchant for taking obvious facts and then proclaiming them to be…facts. But, I guess that’s what you do when you want to be certain that you win an argument…despite the fact that nobody is arguing the fact with you.

I don’t know if you’re purposely trying to misunderstand my points or if you just simply don’t. I’m not talking about how fans see things. I’m talking about how those concerned with revenue see them. Take a look at Ando’s 8:08 post, where he talks about the time when Iverson was leaving Philly and Atlanta was considered a destination possibility. We discussed it at length, wherein Ando said that Iverson was a good addition if ownership was more worried about putting butts in the seats than about actual chances to significantly improve winning percentages:

*Back when Iverson was clearly on the trading block, there was a spirited debate on what he would bring to the Hawks. My oversimplified opinion was that if the ASG wanted to sell tickets, with a greater emphasis on generating revenues, rather than adding a player who may, or may not, actually enhance their opportunity to be a winning franchise (paired with Carmelo and Camby, Iverson has looked great, but, in my opinion, has reinforced the belief that his presence does not lead to more winning).

I felt then, and would feel the same way now, should the ASG seek a player who brought star power, with a big question mark about improving the Hawks chances of being a winner, they would be well within their rights, as it is a business after all.*

This is what I’m talking about. From a fan’s perspective, this doesn’t make any sense, because it’s all about money. Well, that’s what business is all about. I’m not talking about the Hawks winning (and I wish I had both reason and evidence to do so….but like Ando, I just don’t). I’m talking about how the ASG may be looking at things, since we have every reason to believe that they are more concerned about their bank accounts right now than they are about winning significantly more games than they have so far.

But of course, you’ve been here all along and know everything that’s been said here, right? So you shouldn’t have any problem understanding what my point was..

Isn’t Josh Smith “exciting”, if he is as most would say(including me), then why aren’t the Hawks attendance figures on a similar trajectory Iverson’s Sixersyou mentioned? I would submit to you that the difference is winning and to a lesser degree a player who no one questions superstardom.

Again, I thought I just said that. Did I not say that we all pretty much agree that Josh Smith is NOT a star player, and that Iverson is? And yes, they won more games. Because of Iverson, mostly.

Okay, I’m done playing “cut and paste pieces of each other’s posts.”

If you don’t like me or anything I say, no problem. If you think my posts have fluff, drama, or anything else you want to make up, then don’t read them. Clearly they are a waste of your time, and you will have trouble following the three other blogs and the Braves game. After all, we wouldn’t want me to think that my posts are so compelling that you simply must reply to them every time, now would we?

I’m completely cool with not talking basketball (or anything else) with you. I’m completely cool with talking basketball with you. Choice is yours. See ya. Or maybe not. The silent you is definitely less contentious.

By ray

July 6, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this

Ando, you said it better than I did. The whole “excitement factor” is built on the all-consuming question of what the ownership group is really after: making money, or winning? Of course, one could argue up and down that winning will make them money, but winning just doesn’t happen by osmosis.

What amazes me is that some people either don’t know or seem to forget that the ASG isn’t exactly flush with the cash. NOTHING in the past 4 years can be used as evidence to support the opposite opinion. The only way to win is to put a winning team on the floor, right? Well, that costs money. Here we are again: running things on the cheap, and everybody knows the ASG isn’t wealthy when they had to bring in Belkin just to be able to buy the team. So what do you do to alleviate financial pains when you can’t put a winning team on the floor? You put whatever sells the tickets on the floor: you sell excitement. Iverson in an ATL uniform would have done exactly that. Wouldn’t have gotten us past the second round of the playoffs, though.

Of course, explaining this theory has proven to be more of a pain that it’s worth…

Oh, and I’d take Bargnani for Marvin in a heartbeat. The only question is whether Woody would put that tandem of Bargnani/Horford to good use. Still, I adhere to the philosophy of build right, then replace the coach if you have to. And with Woody on a 2-year plan, a buyout isn’t going to be all that expensive.

As for Childress, I’m willing to agree (and said as much earlier) that he is our best hope for acquiring some much-needed pieces. The way the roster is currently set up, we can’t use him right anyway. Any time there’s a problem with the starting pg, Woody has used Chill at the point. Chill does his best work on the baseline and without the ball in his hands. He can’t do that when he’s running the point.

By ray

July 6, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

Rofl, uh….who’s the troll, exactly? Heh…

By doc

July 6, 2008 9:30 PM | Link to this

kirknga, you missed my point completely but i would have expected no less. no revisionism on diaw as he could have been obtained after he was determined not part of the team. he was a throw in and at no loss to the home team. no, i didnt rewrite history but stated it as it now appears which is not what folks expected it to become.

sadly, you never responded to the fact that jj might have meant more to the suns than diaw or the 15th pick with change that they got for rondo as his pick was given to boston. it was also in light of what you cant replace if you invest so much and get something so little in return. obviously, most folks thought the suns got the better of the deal and still do, like you. isnt it ironic that the suns ultimately gave away an all star to atlanta and a major factor for the celts in going all the way and they have diaw and the 15th pick who has never been on the court. no, i am not a revisionist but a historian pointing out the error in their way and the assumption so many made that they got the best of it as you still infer.

so that leads me to say, i dont think we could do as well in a sign and trade which rarely works for the team losing a player in such a manner. so continue to be obtuse if you wish and play your game, it just isnt reality the way it occurred and likely will happen again unless you think losing smoove is addition by subtraction.

ultimately, the main factor in the whole conundrum is to know what the BASG is willing to spend that i suggested as the crucial feature a month ago and how that fits with the needs to balance this roster to get, and here comes the mantra again of, “a big and a shooter” in addition to keeping the “core 8” together or their equivalent. now assuming the BASG are willing to go with a salary structure that would allow an extra 21 mil to keep chills and smoove and it turns out they cant keep smoove then if they pick up a shooter and a big or two that can play then i would be happy to give up smoove in the process. if he goes and the salary structure is minimally changed from last year then back up the bus and get ready to do what they did with the thrashers last year to not build on their success and enthusiasm of the fan base.

By Rofl

July 6, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

fine your both trolls

By ray

July 6, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

Well said, Doc.

Of course, you shouldn’t have to say something like that to somebody who has been following along the whole time. Lol….

Oh geez, July 9th needs to get here. Then we can actually have something new to talk about….well, I hope so anyway.

By HHoops

July 6, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this

Hawks Pre July 9th Prediction

Coach Woodson is the Hawks coach until ASG decides otherwise. So, what does he want personnel wise for next season? We know that he loves a tough defensive team that can also play half court offense. He has worked with the Joshes all of their professional career and they both get a lot of playing time. So, logic tells me that he wants them back, therefore the Hawks will resign both Joshes. J. Smith will get 10 M + and J. Chill will get the mid level @ 5.8 M.

If and when the Joshes are resigned, the Hawks will not have any cap room to sign any other FA’s, unless there is a trade to free up some cap space. So, what opportunities will the Hawks have to improve? I doubt that the Hawks will resign the Joshes in order to trade them. JJ & Horford are not going anywhere. So, the only other Hawks player that other teams would be interested in would be Bibby & Marvin.

I don’t think Coach Woodson would be in favor of trading Bibby before he has a chance to go thru a complete season with him @ point. Especially since he pushed hard for BK to trade for him last season and they did make the playoffs with Bibby.

So, that only leaves Marvin as a player that other teams might be interested in. I see the Hawks trying to trade Marvin for a Big if they feel that they can get a fair trade for him. Can they? With what team? For what player? Marvin’s contract will not give very much cap room to do any other trades.

In the end, I see the Hawks resigning both Joshes and not being able to make any more moves because of cap space. Maybe they can pick up J. Hayes. This looks like our team for 2008-09:

1-Bibby & Acie 2-JJ & Childress 3-Marvin & J. Hayes 4-J. Smith & Solomon 5-Horford & Zaza

Maybe the other two players will be chosen from our summer league team? This is just my prediction!

By kirknga

July 6, 2008 10:02 PM | Link to this

Am I supposed to assume that every person who pops in has been here this whole time, and just not seen fit to contribute comments very much?

I’ve been here the whole time..I didn’t just “pop in”. The point being to not assume such things especially since they are irrelevant to the topic of basketball. It’s a public blog, one of low interest yes, but public nonetheless, anyone could say anything at anytime, but again why even raise the point?

You know, you’ve got a great penchant for taking obvious facts and then proclaiming them to be…facts.

Again, like when to choose to comment ,this is not relevant. Why would someone who uses facts stand out, that’s a better question I would think.

Okay, I gather that you’re not paying complete attention to what you’re reading here. No problem.

No I am paying attention. I just find writing essay length answers about a kids game while sustaining insults to be a lesser priority than devoting time to other blogs where there is a diversity of opinion and it’s about the love of the game and not defending turf, or winning arguments, or how many times you’ve commented or any other drama inducing sidetracks.

Again, I thought I just said that. Did I not say that we all pretty much agree that Josh Smith is NOT a star player

The discussion was about excitement. Not whether or not Smith was a star.

However I find it rather odd that you now state that you believe Smith is not a star player. I believe I questioned whether he was a star or not and have caught hell for it.

The very urgency of the past two blogs was due in part because people felt Smith was a star that has been allowed to get away by an inept and poor management team.

So why all the fuss over a player who you believe isn’t a star?

Lastly, I will note now that you profess to agree with me that winning is the primary focus, and that Smith is not a star player(though talented). There only remains one last tenet to the point I setout to make earlier this week.

That would be the part of my premise that management has played this smart, as have Smith’s agent(an idea I incorporated from another fan).

That remains the lone relevant disagreement between us. Comments about anything else would be unnecessary wouldn’t you say?

By ray

July 6, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this

HHops, that’s a bolder prediction than I’d like to make, but hey…you get braggin’ rights if you’re right, eh?

Kirk, that’s actually pretty funny. Since we have only one relevant disagreement between us, then I suppose you can explain all the other stuff we’ve been “chatting” about. Oh wait, nevermind. Uh…that’s all my fault…that would be the answer, right? Oh damn, there I go answering my riddles again. Sorry about that.

Moving right along…to answer your question:

Let’s see. Why all the fuss over a player who I agree is not a star? Hmmmm. Probably because I believe he has star potential. I believe he can have an impact like Shawn Marion. No, not exactly like Shawn Marion, but quite similar. In some ways, both players are or have been in similar situations: both are perhaps better suited to the small forward position, but have put up some pretty good numbers while playing a power forward position. Marion did it in Phoenix, Smith has done it here.

Secondly, I feel like Smith is one of the top three players on this team right now. I don’t like the idea of letting go of a player with this much talent, who has produced as much as he has, at the age he is. The guy is 22, which means that most of his growing pains should be behind him, but he still has some room to mature. I don’t like the idea of him reaching his potential elsewhere, while we add or substitute someone else who has less talent, and can produce less. I’m not saying that this is what’s going to happen. But I am saying that it’s a good chance that it will happen.

Lest you forget, I’ve also repeatedly said that if we can get better by trading him, then that would be the smartest thing to do. But then, I forget…you’ve been here the whole time…so you know precisely how many times I’ve said that….right?

Now then. Perhaps you would deign to answer the questions I asked you in my 7:12 post? I think that you will find them devoid of drama, fluff, and irrelevancy. Or perhaps not. Who knows.

Your comments about “drama” are actually kind of amusing, for a number of reasons. Perhaps we won’t get into that. Wouldn’t be relevant. Snicker

By MannyT

July 6, 2008 10:37 PM | Link to this

I am certain that interesting things will happen this week. What they are, I don’t know. In the meantime, I’ll try to avoid the groundhog day loops.

I will toss alternate ideas and some links out there as SalimFan and I are known to do every now and then.

Have some NBA attendance stats.

I am not sure, but I think the percentage (of capacity?) column shows a teams success in filling the building.

Looks like a lot more attendance success in Chicago than Philly. Maybe the Sixers need a few more wins and a young, exciting player to sell tickets like…

By MannyT

July 6, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

I’m gonna have to take some time off to get out of this Groundhog loop.

HHoops The ASG issue is their REAL budget. If there is no significant financial restriction, the Hawks will have money (about 6 million) under the cap before they resign either Josh. This would allow them to sign a good veteran IF it is done first. They would also have the mid level exception available.

Granted all this spending is way more than most (including me) expect the ASG to do this summer. However, it is not that hard to make all of this happen within the cap rules.

In recap a salary slot worth about the same as the MLE for a vet. Must be done first.

the MLE to be divvied out as they choose (because you can split it among multiple players)

Bring back Joshes

…all can be done with proper timing…if the price is right. cue the game show music!

By ray

July 6, 2008 10:56 PM | Link to this

MannyT, amazing, isn’t it? That link alone shows two losing teams in the top 10 in attendance. Furthermore, it shows 6 losing teams and 2 .500 record teams that are better in attendance than the NBA’s 4th best team. Huh. Like I said earlier- exceptions to a general rule that would suggest that other factors are in play here.

Enjoying the tennis match?

By ray

July 6, 2008 10:58 PM | Link to this

By the way Manny, I thought throwing combustible fluids on the inferno was my job?

heh, heh, heh…

By ray

July 6, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this

Speaking of cues, is that my better half I see at the foot of the stairs, looking for me?

See ya…

By kirknga

July 6, 2008 11:19 PM | Link to this

Since we have only one relevant disagreement between us, then I suppose you can explain all the other stuff we’ve been “chatting” about. Oh wait, nevermind. Uh…that’s all my fault…that would be the answer, right?

Why yes it would Ray. Way to man up.

Of course if you can find any comments I’ve made questioning things such as how many times someone has posted, the history of the blog(other than to say I thought Sekou does a great job), the “tenor” of someone’s comments, or intimating smart-a** behavior on some else’s part then by all means point it out.

I’ve defended myself nothing more.

Now then. Perhaps you would deign to answer the questions I asked you in my 7:12 post?

I think I have answered those questions many times over. That is the shame of bringing up all that other stuff Ray.

But I won’t be small, I’ll recap for you.

I think the ASG isn’t as dumb as people are saying, after a player turned down my initial offer I would let the market determine his value. This is a smart move with the Right Of Refusal.

I believe the ASG wants to put a winning team on the court as many are longtime fans. I can remember when there was doubt if the Hawks would even stay in Atlanta, so now we don’t hear stuff like that and I appreciate the owners for it. I also recognize this isn’t New York or LA and don’t expect ASG to spend money as if they had those same revenue streams.

It would not be without it.I think Smith’s agents bear some responsibility for the situation, though they have done the smart thing by their client and advised him to not sign any contract before testing the market..

How to put a winning team on the floor? Well I’ve made several suggestions, including some today that tack along with the perspective of Ando. You will recall our “reasonable example” conversation that you raised for some of those ideas.

That is what Sund is here for. He’s new here in Atlanta. For that reason, I don’t believe any of us have any idea what he’s thinking.

Perhaps someone could write one of those essays using the facts of Sund’s track record for any predictive value it might hold for our situation?

My bottom line is, again, I don’t care if they do it the way I would do it. I have never claimed to have an exclusive lock on the how of team building.I do believe that it can be done with, or without Josh Smith. That has been the main source any of basketball-related difference .

As a lifelong Hawks fan, I’m staying aboard no matter what; I’m not like those who threatened to with withdraw support “if the Hawks don’t do …”

So there you go Ray*, that’s the recap, as I said if you want to fleshout these answers just please read my comments.

Thanks Again for your time.

By doc

July 6, 2008 11:35 PM | Link to this

manny t interesting stats and i am surprised we are doing that well after the product offered. also interesting to note that indiana is doing so poorly as well as philly being as far behind us in total gate as we are behind say phoenix who has had a very good run for several years. i would also think just the slightest interest by the owners to give a better product would fill up the arena and make the rafters ring. the problem is that maybe the cost of doing that doesnt quite gain the increase in revenue to make up for it, ya think?

By MannyT

July 6, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this

You guys are not Federer & Nadal, but have fun anyway.

This time I threw relevant data out there. I don’t think I need my asbestos suit for this one.

…as we have little new to discuss over this weekend,

I present the anti-ding

Have a good week. I’m sure we’ll have lots to talk about in the next few days.

WAF

By ray

July 7, 2008 12:25 AM | Link to this

Well, Kirk, I guess I have to echo Doc and say that I expected no less.

I suppose I could expound upon that, but it would be as empty as your answers. Besides, all you’d do is cut and paste it with some kind of smarmy reply. By the way, if you really are going to blame me for our banter, then I must have some kind of compelling, “power of prose” mind control over you. If that’s not true, then your replies to my “irrelevancy” is nothing more than the pot shouting at the kettle. One more thing: I don’t give up easily. If you want to keep it up, so can I. In the meantime, I’ll continue substantial dialogue with those who are capable.

By ray

July 7, 2008 12:33 AM | Link to this

Manny, I’m no good at tennis. I keep thinking that hitting it out of the park is a good thing. Too much baseball on the mind.

Then there’s the proper use of a tennis racket….yeah, I might have a problem with that. Let’s just say it’s not the serve my opponent would have to be worried about….heh heh heh.

By MannyT

July 7, 2008 12:38 AM | Link to this

doc I could get into some financial analysis for fun and grins.

I think the telling statistic for team popularity/excitement is the road percentage. That’s where we really show our true colors. Think about the times that Philips is really full…it’s all about the star players coming to town.

Looking at the attendance numbers, I’d guess that they use that total attendance including give away tickets. The telling number for profitability is avg revenue/game. That way you pull down the number for giveaways, but it goes up if you are selling lots of team gear, food & drinks. In the bigger picture that number could include avg revenue from TV & radio rights.

When we talk ASG we have to look at NHL attendance also. Not a huge surprise that the Hawks outdid the Thrashers this season, but take a look at last season’s numbers. The Hawks had a less surprising rank, but the 1st time playoff bound Thrashers did not do much better in 2007 than 2006.

All that to say the paying Atlanta NHL fan may have more hard core consistency than the paying NBA Hawks fan. I believe it having attended both NHL & NBA games in Philips over the past few seasons.

While I don’t have attendance numbers for concerts and the like in Philips, I would guess that things are better in a good economy, but there is not a Widespread Panic except for New Year’s eve.

By kirknga

July 7, 2008 12:48 AM | Link to this

*I suppose I could expound upon that, but it would be as empty as your answers. *

No you can’t expound on anything because that’s not what you are about. You want drama or you wouldn’t write as you do. You aren’t fooling me, and from what I’ve read today, you aren’t fooling others either.

It’s a shame, you ask a questions, I answer, you describe as empty and run off into the night. Well can’t say I didn’t try. But I will thank you, again for the amusement, you have provided us with some roaring laughter today and anyone who can make me laugh is ok in my book.

Just don’t take yourself so seriously my friend, I don’t. This is just a blog, nothing more.

Lastly, for the record, if one looks at the attendance figures, as the Hawks wins have increased so has their attendance. As I said, in Atlanta, if you win, fans support you, if you lose, it doesn’t matter how exciting you are, fans are not going to show up as much as if you win. Don’t know why that’s hard for some people but any Atlanta fan should be able to acknowledge it. Atlanta is the relevant team, no one else.

By cp

July 7, 2008 1:16 AM | Link to this

I was checking out some other nba site today and found out some info about a guy that a few on here have brought up . Patrick O’Bryant. After reading what I did, I doubt anybody will want to bring him in. Im not good at linking so ill copy and paste the article….

The Celtics continued their search for a big man by working out Patrick O’Bryant, Golden State’s first-round pick (ninth overall) out of Bradley in 2006.

The 7-foot center showed decent range and solid footwork taking feeds in the post. But when he hit the low post against Wisconsin’s Brian Butch and Detroit Mercy’s Ryvon Covile, who had each been practicing since 9 in the morning, O’Bryant was tugging at his shorts not even 15 minutes into the drill, struggling to muster enough strength to defend either.

Celtics spokesman Jeff Twiss pointed out that O’Bryant arrived in Boston at 1 a.m., although he tired quickly against players who had been on the court all morning. O’Bryant took the court at approximately 11 a.m.

Here is some more info

O’Bryant, the only NBA lottery selection to receive the D-League treatment, is averaging 6.1 points, 6.7 rebounds and 2.1 blocks per game in seven games with the Jam but has fouled out twice and shot just 40 percent.

“I told him if he goes down to the D-League and isn’t a dominant player, there should be red flags all over the place, and he should be the first to notice,” Nelson said. “He’s not only not dominating, he’s not playing very well. He’s a long-term project. I really liked him the first week of training camp, but I assumed there would be great progress. … He hasn’t gotten better one bit.

“I’d like to go to dinner with him, but I wouldn’t like to put him in the game I’m coaching.”

The Celtics and Heat both worked out Patrick O’Bryant recently, but Pat was reportedly given the business by ‘08 undrafted hopeful Brian Butch and some other no-names in his Boston workout and looked out of shape compared to everyone else there. Here we were certain that O’Bryant was gonna follow the lineage of being the next David Harrison — who is already the next Michael Olowokandi down to his looks and everything — and he might not even be in the League long enough to make it happen

By ray

July 7, 2008 2:31 AM | Link to this

cp, I read that too. Makes me wonder: Is Butch a diamond in the rough, or is O’Bryant just that bad? Taking that into consideration along with the fact that he couldn’t get much burn in Nellie’s system (and what you posted as to what Nellie had to say) kind of puts things in a different light.

Ando, taking that into consideration, would you still endorse the signing of O’Bryant? Maybe he was just in the wrong system. Maybe not. Beginning to look like more of a project than we need.

Kirk, yes I am about drama sometimes. And emotion. And humor. And passion. So is the game of basketball. So are movies. So is art. As you stated yourself, this is a blog. Ever hear of freedom of speech? Just about anything goes here. And you don’t make the rules as to what does, or what is relevant. Neither do I, but at least I don’t act like I do. I told you before: if you don’t like what I write: suck it up, ignore it, whatever, then move on. What’s beyond puzzling is why you continue to respond to me, when you clearly despise me and all that you think I am. Do you really think that what you see here is the true definition of the real person? If you do, then you’re wrong. A blog is not the place for astute and accurate character judgement. I’d think you’d know better than that. But continue to believe as you will. There are others here that I talk to daily, and not via internet, that know differently. I certainly don’t actually assume that you are what you may or may not seem to be here on the blog, or I’d have to say that I’m glad I don’t know you. No sir, you do not know me, and I do not know you. And you don’t know what I’m about. If you did, this whole conversation would have been different.

You’re right about one thing: I have made a lot of people laugh. Even the author of these blogs. And I’ve made some people mad, and some don’t care. You obviously don’t fit into the latter category because you just can’t stop responding. Makes me laugh. Probably makes some other people laugh, too.

I’ll say it again: do try to move on if you really don’t like talking to me. I’m not taking myself seriously, but I am having fun. You should try it sometime. Or you can continue your weak and futile efforts to insult and degrade me. Again, each time you try, it becomes more and more hilarious. I mean really “don’t take yourself seriously”? Dude I’m just yappin’. You’re the one who is so serious. “You want drama or you wouldn’t write as you do”. LOL!! Let go of your obsession…you’ll feel better. How about this: you ignore my posts, and I won’t respond to yours either (kind of like most others are doing….except Doc, who thinks you should answer his questions, and will continue to be disappointed because you can’t or won’t).

Oh and your last paragraph, Captain Obvious: I don’t see anybody arguing with you, buddy. Not even me. But thanks for the reminder anyway, just in case I forget. As for what teams are relevant, that’s subjective, don’t ya think? Heh, heh, heh! Nevermind, that’s a whole other explanation that would likely be a waste of my time and yours. Take care. Take a pill. Do something….

By kirknga

July 7, 2008 2:40 AM | Link to this

* Do you really think that what you see here is the true definition of the real person? *

I can only go on the impression you give me Ray*

But like I said, thanks for the laughs, don’t take yourself so seriously ok!!!

P.S. Don’t need no pills, the humor you have provided has been enough for me!!

God Bless! Until Next Time!

By ray

July 7, 2008 2:43 AM | Link to this

Summer league starts tomorrow! I mean today…forgot what time it was, I was so busy getting ol Kirk’s undies in a bunch…

I know it’s not the summer league that our team is playing in, but I look forward to seeing guys like Rose and Beasley play, along with some others. OH NO! Did I just say that I wanted to see some guys play that don’t have anything to do with Atlanta? The Relevancy Police will be after me!

Ehh, the Orlando summer league stuff will hold me over until the Rocky Mountain Revue begins. I hope Acie takes that mutha by storm. It would really be good to see him in there playing his game. Of course, it would be even better to see him doing that in the regular season…

By ray

July 7, 2008 3:20 AM | Link to this

Glad to please, Kirk, glad to please. They do say laughter is good for the body and soul. Of course, I have no idea who “they” are, but “they” seem to say a lot of things.

I can only go on the impression you give me Ray

Well now, that’s not fair. How could I possibly accurately represent myself? I mean, you don’t get the benefit of the real thing: Big mischievous grin, Fu Manchu moustache, stinky morning breath (did I use up all of the Listerene already? Dammit Man!), etc. Well, maybe you could do without the morning breath. I don’t really have that. Or at least nobody’s told me (wife included). Hmmmm…where is that Listerene?

By Mitch

July 7, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

The question is: can Rick Sund be the architect that Billy Knight wasn’t?

Right away it appears that Sund is just focused—-perhaps by instruction from the owners—-on keeping the status quo.

The re-hiring of Mike Woodson and the insistance that offers to J-Smoove and Chills will be matched—-suggests all of the above.

Woodson’s 2 year deal gives Sund a window to take a close look at Woody’s performance and how well that figures into the team’s success.

The problem with having Bibby, JJ, J-Smoove and Chills signed to major contracts is a financial one—-are the owners really prepared to pay a luxury tax, especially with all of the uncertainty regarding the Spirit Group’s future?

The key move would be to trade Bibby and his $15M contract…but what team would be willing to acquire an aging point guard at that price? The Cavs have shown interest in the past…would they still be interested? Probably not.

The Hawks are stuck with Speedy Claxton’s ridiculous contract for another two years, which compounds matters as well.

Then…as many of you have so aptly suggested, the Hawks would be better off playing the sensational Al Horford at PF, thus adding a legitmate defensive center would be sweet.

I seem to have more patience with Marvin Williams than some of you. At his age and lack of college experience, I think his progress has been pretty solid…and I think this year he will be one of the top ten SFs in the league.

Thus…am I crazy to think that the Hawks should explore sign and trade options for Josh Smith? What if they could rid themseves of Speedy Claxton in the process and pick up a point guard and a shot blocking center?

I actually think keeping Josh Childress is more important. Childress does two things that Josh Smith doesn’t: he is consistent, both in effort and in production and he plays smart.

Don’t get me wrong, I marvel at J-Smoove’s uncanny talents…but so often with him it’s feast or famine. Yes, he’s only 22…but something tells me Josh will always be what he is now: an athletic dynamo and highlight reel star who loses control when the pressure is turned up.

With Woody as coach…Smith probably has no chance to take the next step. Smith needs a Mike D’Antonio-type of coach who will cater to his strengths and let Josh be Josh, turnovers and all. Reining Josh Smith in and yelling at him won’t do anything for him but slow him down.

It’s too bad that Sund didn’t seem to have the autonomy to find the right coach for J-Smoove, especialy if the Hawks intend to pay him the megamillions.

By Astro Joe

July 7, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

MannyT, from what i recall reading or hearing previously, ticket revenue is a fairly small percentage of overall revenue in the NBA. It is the huge TV contract, that is evenly divided, that provides the owners with most of their revenue. That and luxury suites and local sponsorships (e.g. the Home Depot game played during home games). Of course, selling sponsorships must be easier if you can claim that the company’s brand will be seen by some 19,000 fans in 41 home contests.

Those of us who attended the playoff games know that the Hawks had their season-ticket sellers out in full effect. I wonder if there is a safe assumption that if season-ticket sales increase by x%, that overall attendance will increase by y%. The ASG has hopefully already estimated ‘08-09 team revenue based on forecasted ticket sales, any proposed sponsorship increases and of course, television revenue.

Oops, my bad. They fired their CFO last year. So assuming that the GA State Accounting major who is interning their this summer can do the math (and I’m that he can), then they should be able to project a balance sheet based on forecasted revenue, team salaries and other expenses. The question becomes how does an extra $10M in team salaries translate to the revenue line. That’s when you need that intern to provide sceanrios regarding home playoff games… with the basic assumption being that added salary translates into playoff success which means more revenue from home playoff games.

By KevinM

July 7, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Mitch, agree and disagree…..

For one, Josh Smith brings excitement to the Hawks. Without him, there isn’t an exciting player on the team. Fundamentally, there are JJ and Horford, but Smoove is the one guy that teams don’t match up well against. You can’t let him leave at this age, after giving him the minutes and the time he has been given. He is not a finished product, but there are some who think he is. If signing Smoove is about the money, then the ASG better get out of the business because if you think it is going to get cheaper going forward, you are mistaken. This whole league is just overpaying for players and almost every team has a crutch in their structure. Our problem is not Smoove; it is the coach and the 2 guards that are being paid $20M. Ridding ourselves of those 3 decisions and this team has room to work with in the structure. Right now, we are stuck with Bibby and Speedy. Chills has some value as does Marvin, but both could be replaced and probably at a cheaper rate. If I was running this organization, I build around Smoove, JJ and Al, and get more interior help immediately. Smoove is a main cog for bringing fans to the game and for marketing. There just aren’t too many players like him. Yes, I know Dr. J was even traded, but you just don’t trade a 22-23 year old talent that you have homegrown like Smoove. You can give him limitations on the court, but he is more a face of this franchise than any other player. Horford will be our support system going forward, but Smoove makes the Hawks something different. Just let him keep improving things and see how he is after this next contract. I don’t see how you get equal value back if you let him leave. As far as Marvin goes, to me he has limitations as this position that does not bode well for us when it is time for him to resign. He plays one slot and he can only play one slot. Can he get better? Yes, so let’s see if he improves his range and his rebounding. If you see the same Marvin, next year would be a good time for a change. He will forever be linked to Paul and Williams and unless he breaks out this year, he will always be considered a disappointment. To me, Woody is not the best option for this team, but we are now going to have to fail to prove it.

By doc

July 7, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

yes as fans we need to remember that the bang for the buck is bottom line on spending. if the increase in revenues dont balance the expenditure then why make the expenditure? ultimately the team either spends or it doesnt and is it prepared to go into luxury land while not being assured this is a team that can be better than .500 and make it into the playoffs and all without deep pockets of cash, we can call it ando’s theme. better get an imaginative cfo to make the balance sheet match in some way. personally, i will be very surprised if they can make the move into the mid-range spenders to continue the rise of the franchise. will 3000 seats filled per game be the difference in getting into that lofty territory and how do others make it happen? anyone care to guess? how many wins will be required to get that many folks into the philips?

By KevinM

July 7, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Doc,

There are a few things that can be done to bring more fans to Philips:

1) Start drafting for what you need as a team. 2) Be involved with every aspect of improving your team. Have you done that this offseason? 3) Present a product worth watching and let the fans know you are listening to their concerns. 4) State that you want to bring this team to a level that haven’t seen before (like championship basketball) instead of stating you want to bring competitive basketball to Atlanta. 5) Hire some knowledgeable basketball people; someone who has been there before. We have been blessed with Stotts, Kruger, and now Woody. We are still trying to find an identity to a 30 year franchise. 6) Quit running this organization like you have no clue. They can’t react quickly to anything.

Doc, what I hear is that this franchise is worth a lot more than what they paid for it, so they should be able to get the $$ they need to produce a winning team. Its tiring to hear that they’re cash strapped! This franchise value has increased and that should be the only number that should justify paying salaries.

By terrell barron

July 7, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

Bigs the BASG can AFFORD if we re-sign BOTH Joshes: Francisco Elson, Kwame Brown, Michael Ruffin, Chris Anderson, Randolph Morris, James Augustine, Brian Skinner, and Lorenzen Wright. lol!! That’s about it! Take your pick. Give me Elson.

By Astro Joe

July 7, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

terrell, I don’t think that we can afford Kwame. I’d replace him with Earl Barron (your brother perhaps) and you can add Brian Butch, John Edwards and Ando’s all-time favorite big man, Dwayne Jones to the list. Oh, and I’m not sure that we can afford Elson either.

By RealSquawk

July 7, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

Anybody downplaying

this philly situation is crazy they sign josh Smith to the max they really have no need to do a sign a trade cause they have the cap space; they sign Chills to a long year deal at 5.8 mill exception and then match any offers for andre and lou

and since they have a coach who can run a team they now are one of the most exciting competitive teams in the league

and Sekou are you trying to telling me that no one is interested in Salim… since you have said nothing about him… I mean I just can’t believe that

By guy

July 7, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

I hope we let Josh go - there are way too many FAs that will become available next year and the following year and I would rather use that money on a guy like Amare or Wade or Melo.

By guy

July 7, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

I hope we let Josh go - there are way too many FAs that will become available next year and the following year and I would rather use that money on a guy like Amare or Wade or Melo.

By Dropping bows like Dusty Rhodes

July 7, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

SEKOU-

You are dead on about the Hawks needing a pure shooter with size. Nail on the head.

Don’t you also feel the Hawks just as desperately need another legit big man (ie: 6’11-7 footer) that can defend. I think Horford and Zaza can score enough on the blocks (Horford’s going to make a big jump in scoring this year I predict), but too much pressure is on Horford to rebound and defend at the moment. Are there any reserve legit big men on the free agent block this summer???

By Glutton for Punishment

July 7, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Hey Guys, Sorry I have not been around for awhile. But It is now time for the summer leagues. Who knows where I can find the roster for the Hawks?

By KevinM

July 7, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

From what I am reading, everyone is making moves to help their team, yet we are just sitting and waiting on the 2 Joshes to see how much they can get. I call this reactive management once again from the ASG. You won’t hear any names bantered until there are only a couple of bigs left to get. Morris is going to play for Boston in the summer league - scratch…. Diop is in Dallas - scratch….. Don’t want nothing to do with Kwame or O’Bryant - scratch….. Someone actually mentioned John Edwards here…OMG, should’t we just ask to check the status of Koncak and Willis at this point!

This management group doesn’t appear to want to be linked to any rumors because they have so many plans in place. Want to venture we end up as just another watcher on the FA circuit like we were with the draft? Smoove and Chills appear to be our only uncertainties this year.

By terrell barron

July 7, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

Astro, I think Elson’s stock dropped when he went to Sonics. He should come fairly cheap. He played well for San Antonio, but disappeared in Seattle. And how about Melvin Ely, Ryan Hollins, Theo Ratliff, or Dikembe? Those are a few more affordable options.

By RealSquawk

July 7, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Man forget all this hub bub bub bluh

If J smooth wants a max contract let him get it from somebody else.

Seriously at the moment if we were to give him that much money we would be over paying and paying for potential and I can think of far to many players who got similar contracts and never reached that potential Shawn Marion Lamar Odom Eddy Curry Chris Kaman Darius Miles

And there are so many others, but there is a difference most of the people on that list can dribble

So basically we are about place our future in the hands of Josh Smith

I know everyone is looking for that best possible situation

but this is the NBA and this is the Atlanta Hawks so we would have tendency to panic and over pay ESPECIALY when something good comes around, but over paying for smith is not the right thing

**Josh Smith is no Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony, Amare Stoudemire, or anybody else who is getting this type of money

he is Josh Smith he is exciting, but do we really need to over pay for excitement

Now on the other hand Josh Smith learns how to dribble, develops a consistent Jump shot, and becomes a quick and mobile post player developing into one of the best players in the league and we miss out on a great player

,but lets say we let Josh Smith go and sign Chills

next year we resign bibby cheaper if he performs and extend Marvin moderately if possible * And in the year 2010* with enough money to retain Joe Johnson and woo Amare Stoudemire or lebron james or wade,

This is a business baby!!!!!

and i think Mike bibby, Joe Johnson, Marvin Williams, Al horford and signing the best center available on a 2 to 4 year deal isn’t a bad option if signing Josh Smith puts us in financial lockdown

I do want Josh Smith on the team though I just want him for what he is worth

By terrell barron

July 7, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this

Real Squawk, PLEASE!!!! Smoove is not a point guard. wtf! Sure, Josh Smith has some flaws, but dribbling IS NOT one of them. He would’nt have to dribble if Woodrow would stop telling AJ, Lue, and now Bibby, to walk it up the freakin court. Let em run Woody, let em run.

By HHoops

July 7, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

This is for all of you that want to WIN BIG

There has been much discussion about how to increase attendance and interest in the Hawks on this blog. Some have suggested a team that is exciting to watch, while others have suggested winning is the key. Both of these suggestions are correct!

My question is why can’t we have both? To have an exciting team to watch, you must have exciting players that are allowed to play and coached to play an exciting brand of basketball. In order to win, there must be high expectations and support from the owners, passed down to the coaches, on down to the players, and finally to the fans!

The decisions that have been made in the past concerning Hawks players and coaches are exactly that, “in the past”! We need to go forward and make the best of the current situation! Coach Woodson is going to play players that play tough defense and can execute on half court offense. If a player can get out in the open court and make positive plays, that player will add other demensions to the Hawks game plan. But, first and foremost, we must stop our opponent from scoring and ultimately we must be able to score on the half court. Anything that we can do in addition to that (run the fast break, create turnovers with defensive pressure, dunk, block shots, etc.) will only add to what we can do to defeat our opponent!

If I am a player for the Hawks right now, I know my coach wants me to be able to score in a five on five situation and be able to stop our opponent from scoring. So, I’m working on my offensive moves and defensive quickness. If I have other skills that I can help our team with, I need to bring my skills to practice so my coaches can see what else I can contribute.

The bottom line is this - The Hawks owners, coaches, players and fans need to come together and do what each group is suppose to do to make the Atlanta Hawks the NBA Champions!!! The owners need to acquire the best players that can be had at this time. The coaches need to demand nothing but the best from the players, while at the same time being flexible in their style of play, so the skills of that group can be utilized best. The Atlanta Hawks fans need to get behind YOUR TEAM and be “the sixth man” that every player loves to see and hear! WE ALL have got to bust our butts if we are going to win a NBA Championship!!!

Look at what the Celtics were able to do in ONE YEAR!! The owners put the money on the table for D. Ainge to go get the players. Doc R. and his staff got those guys to committ to playing defense like they had not done before. The players bought in to what the coaches wanted and they committed themselves to “Team” and not “I”! The fans loved what they saw and got behind their team! The attendance went up and so did the revenue!! They hung # 17 in the rafters!

Get it together Atl, we are closer than you think!!!

By Melvin

July 7, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

RealSquawk, If another team offer Josh Smith a max contract, wouldn’t that set his market value? How come the Hawks would be overpaying if they matched a max contract for him?

Funny how others teams consider this guy a valueable asset and Hawks fans are willing to trade this guy b/c they think his market value is too high. It was the BASG (bad) idea to let the market set their product price. Just like Doc, Sekou and others have said repeatly, that was a dum choice to let your competitors determine your payroll. I wonder if McDonalds ask Burger King how much should they paid their employees.

It was the BASG plans to rebuild thru the draft 4 yrs ago. If they can’t resign their own restricted FA then whats the purpose of rebuilding thru the draft.

By doc

July 7, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

melvin AMEN to your last sentence.

By Ken Strickland

July 7, 2008 3:37 PM | Link to this

MITCH-The Trailblazers may still be interested in acquiring Bibby, since they’ve tried to acquire him in the past. They have 5 bigs that are 6’11” or taller and could certainly spare one of them. Bibby’s $15M salary is close to the combined salaries of C RLaFrentz($12.44M) and PG SBlake($4.25M). LaFrentzs’ career stats are: 25.8MINS, .466% SHOOTING, .363 3PT%, 6.1RPG, 1.63BPG, 10.1PPG.

LaFrentz would give us a very good backup if Smoove is resigned, or a very servicable starter if he’s not. He’d give us another outside shooter, especially from 3pt range, and a lot more versatility. The combination of LaFrentz and Blake would make the Hawks a better team than Bibby alone.

By ray

July 7, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

Melvin, I’m with Doc. Your last sentence is right on the money. No fanatical supporter of this ownership group can refute it (well, not rational, reasonable person, anyway). Although I’m sure that at least one will try…in vain.

RealSquawk, it’s a gamble either way. I believe Josh can learn to control himself and needs good influences. A better coach is something this entire team needs, so that goes without saying. I still feel like it’s hard for a young, wild guy like Josh to play under control in the offense when there’s no real offensive game plan. I mean, what have we seen other than “throw the ball to JJ, and watch him work against double and triple teams.” Funny, most of the time when JJ passes the ball…he’s passing it to Smith…who has to go almost out to the arc to get away from all the defenders JJ has drawn.

Also, Smoove listens to Horford. I recall during the playoffs when Smith did well. He’d start playing out of control and I’d see Horford get right in his face, right in his ear. And he had his attention, too. It’s what Acie was doing early in the season, when he was getting actual playing time. That’s what the Hawks need, is a vocal leader. JJ just isn’t going to do it, because he doesn’t want/like to. Bibby…I’m not so sure. Yeah, Josh needs strong influences around him. All I’ve seen with that team is confusion. Even when veterans have been involved. Does anybody remember how early in the season Anthony Johnson had a falling out with Woody and just plain left the arena? Anybody remember when they’d show the huddle and Anthony Johnson would be rolling his eyes and looking elsewhere? Wonder why…

But you know what? You’re right. Josh doesn’t do well in this system. If management is going to keep on with Woodson and his slow-as-molasses, useless, puzzling gameplans, then it’s better for Josh at least to go elsewhere, much as I don’t like to see him go. The team is already cursed with Woodson. May as well have mercy on at least one player.

By ray

July 7, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

Mitch, I agree about Marvin’s progress. He can score and rebound. I am concerned with his clumsiness, lack of aggression, largely ineffective defense, and mostly one-dimensional offensive game. Everybody from the fans to the scouts to league executives talks about his potential, and the tools he has. But it’s just not happening, and I think aggression is the key.

Your prediction that he’ll be one of the top 10 small forwards next season is a bit optimistic, if you ask me. Which will he be better than out of the following: Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Gerald Wallace, Luol Deng, Lebron James, Shawn Marion, Andre Iguodala, Richard Jefferson, Caron Butler, or Josh Howard? That’s just the first 10 I thought of. Then there’s 6 more: Hedo Tukoglu, Mike Miller, Rudy Gay, Stephen Jackson, Ron Artest, and Andrei Kirilenko. I’m not even sure I wouldn’t put Al Thornton or Martell Webster in that mix. Not sayin’ Marvin isn’t any good. Just saying he’s got a long way to go.

Tell ya what though. If Smoove is gone, Woody and JJ continue to ignore Horford on offense, and Marvin expands his offensive game dramatically…then he could be a 20ppg scorer. By then we’ll be needing it more than ever…unless by some miracle Woody grows a second brain cell to go with the first and we manage to pick up another impact player in trade or free agency.

For those who haven’t seen anything on Salim from Sekou: consider that you haven’t seen anything about him on other websites either. Not Hoopshype, Insidehoops, ESPN, Sport Illustrated, none of it. All I’ve seen from anybody is that he probably will seek to sell his services elsewhere. Someplace where the coach actually know what to do with shooters.

By ray

July 7, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

new blog up

By Astro Joe

July 7, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Ray, but don’t you hope that when Sekou reported that Sund was asking the right questions during his evaluation period, that one had to be “will extending Woody’s contract influence re-signing Smith”? I mean, if most of us on the blog would know to snoop out that answer, surely a guy with 3 decades worth of front-office experience would get that answer BEFORE offering a 2-year extension.

I continue to harp on the assistants because I truly believe that is our only venue of hope. That Sund insists that we hire someone who can supplement the good that Woody does with this group in terms of game-time decisions. I was disappointed to see Del Harris and Bickerstaff land with Chicago. Obviously, the ownership fiasco continues to place a cloud over everything we do, including hiring capable assistants. We’ll likely end up with Sam Vincent and Larry K. (former Bucks head man) on our staff. Instead of Del, Bickerstaff, Westphal, Gentry, Westhead, Moe or Casey. And who the Hades is our big man coach these days? Bob Rathbun?

By jc_dawg

July 8, 2008 6:42 AM | Link to this

This team is finally going in the right direction. Do not tamper with it. Resign Smith and Childress. Bring everyone back so that the success continues!

I know the salary cap must be addressed but Bottom line to mgmt…pay or get worse!

By Kris

July 8, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

If NBA players love to be loved, then what’s stopping Hawks fans & management from showing the Joshes how much they love & appreciate the hard work they did to help the team get to the playoffs?