Hawks

By Astro Joe

November 20, 2007 11:58 PM | Link to this

Sekou, that is an utterly ridiculous question… did they look, listen and learn? The Spurs are doing Calculus, the Hawks are learning addition. What makes you think that the guys who need to look, listen and learn, would do so with a team like the Spurs? I’m sure to those guys, the Spurs are everything they don’t want to be, methodical, boring, scripted, unathletic and deliberate. Spurs probably lead the league in fewest dunks per game. Do you think our Hawks want to model that? Don’t insult us by insinuating that our team is smart or mature enough to appreciate what the Spurs do. There is no indication, after 4 years, that this team has any interest in looking, listening and learning from the Spurs. They’re just living the life of an NBA baller… team success is clearly irrelevant to their individual missions.

By ray

November 21, 2007 12:10 AM | Link to this

Roan St., thankyou for thinking level-headed about Josh Smith. I really like the guy. Really. But… how do people call a guy a hall-of-famer when he has yet to be named to his first all-star game? I mean really…

Smartguy, uh…the team IS playing with the guys they have. And we’re 3-7, soon to be 3-8. What’s your point?

Y’all wanna hear a good one? Chatted with Ando before the game against San Antonio. He predicted that Tony Parker would go for around 30 points, and the Spurs would put Bowen (not Duncan) on Smoove, causing Smoove to shoot anywhere in the vicinity of 3-15 to 3-18. Well looky, looky. Parker gets 31, Duncan doesn’t guard Smoove, and as predicted: he goes 3-16.

That’s not a bash on Smith (did you get that Reese?). Bowen kills anybody’s game, even Kobe’s at times. That’s just more evidence of Ando’s disgustingly uncanny knack for predictions. I don’t even bother trying to predict things myself anymore…

By tony

November 21, 2007 12:51 AM | Link to this

Teach them to play smart turnover free basketball Woodson! THE MIND IS SHAPE BY WHAT U FEED IT DAILY! Bench Josh Smith if he take another 3pt shot!

By Clyde

November 21, 2007 1:05 AM | Link to this

HEY HEY HO HO BILLY AND WOODY GOT’S TA GO

By CJ

November 21, 2007 2:56 AM | Link to this

I participated heavily on here for the past 2 seasons….I’ll vanish again for now…I just hate dejavu. See you guys next year. Ando will pretty much sums things up anyway ;).

By mykhalc

November 21, 2007 2:58 AM | Link to this

ANDO, you know i’m standin’ by my boy AH!!!! he might go down tomorrow against the BIG FELLA but he won’t be floppin’ like some startin’ centers we know!!!!LOL

the game became background for me again tonite. HORFORD was the ONLY cat that brought some energy at the start of the game. the cat KNOWS what it is to be a winner. really hope what’s goin’ on now does not dampen his drive for success. i doubt it will but none-the-less, i’d hate to see the WOODSON experience rain on his drive!!!

the team really does not know how to play together!! i think JJ’s frustration is he knows that it’s a crap shoot EVERY NITE with this team. lack of real vets and lack of vets playin’ like vets!!!!

ANDO, you called it right. it was like a JV against varsity scrimmage!!!

again, WOODSON was probably the right cat 4 yrs ago. NOT TODAY!!! and NO MOVES need to be made until that is taken care of first. he’s lost the team already and he’ll lose anybody else that comes here in a very short period of time!!

like i said, my fear is that BK will stand by him REGARDLESS, out of loyalty!!!

man, it ain’t pretty!!!

By hawks-4-life

November 21, 2007 4:24 AM | Link to this

Im tired of feeling like this after losses. Ill always be a hawk fan but i get too worked up for the game only to lose. I need to step away especially if we lose to the heat. I THINK I WILL GO ON A RAMPAGE. All this talk about trading either JS or MW is just b.s. (I rather keep MW by the way). We dont need to revamp anything and no we didnt need to do anything during free agency. What we need and been lacking for a while is leadership. This is what i though ole man Wright was bringing but he is useless. JJ is too quiet to lead and JS is too volitile. Law has promise but who wants a rookie to lead. WOODY UR DIGGING YOUR OWN GRAVE BECAUSE THIS SEASON THE SAME EXCUSE IS NOT GOING TO WORK BECAUSE EVERYONE KNOWS YOU HAVE A GOOD PLAYERS, BUT YOU DONT HAVE A TEAM AND THATS YOUR JOB, TO FORM ONE.

BY THE WAY WHATS OUR PRESEASON RECORD!!!

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 7:22 AM | Link to this

Sekou

Will a 3-win opening month be enough to see Woodson gone. I’ve long been against him as a coach…but obviously it is not entire his fault. These guys simply do not play together…as usual, too many jumpers, NOONE can make a 3…what were they last night as a team…0-8 from deep? LOL But surely a 3-win November has to be enough to send him packing….doesn’t it? I don’t care if they make Drew the coach…just get rid of Woodson. See if someone can bring a change of pace…light some type of fire under this “team”. Because if something doesn’t happen fast…the Hawks will rapidly be looking at last season’s attendance…5k fans here, 4k fans there…noone will care…and before Christmas, everyone’s focus will be on “when do the Braves begin spring training again?”

By doc

November 21, 2007 7:44 AM | Link to this

first of, all got to thank jhan for the comfort and perspective of his seats. some things you can never see when you are behind the opposing teams bench.

sekou, you said much of what we speculated on during the game. aj you said it well, it is what these “guys” are. i use that term because ALL of us need to realize this isnt a team nor do they show a pulse of becoming one today. maybe tomorrow just NOT today.

the big fundamental was just that showing only moderate interest in an off night where without much effort came close to a triple double. the best pass of the night was him at the high post calmly waiting for one of the many non-stars and non-athletic teammates cut through the maize and deliver a back door pass for an easy reverse lay up. it was soo much fun to focus on his eyes as it was done. the whole team takes on his character with precision and so much fun to watch.

the game was never as close really as the 12 point deficit. the run was made while bowen, finley, parker, ginobli and duncan were on the bench. one time the spurs had a very small line up on the floor and rarely used their big lineup. look at their make up and they arent athletic nor a highlight factory. they have three ball players that you would want on you fantasy team and the rest look pretty unsavory as big time nba’ers. horry was in his finest sitting on the bench in a cool suit so he wasnt even a factor. with all this the hawks were never close.

the spurs scored 42 points in the paint. the big guy patrolled and changed and deflected many shots and parker and ginobli drove through the lane untouched innumerable times. ginobli drove through what looked like a classic a 2-1-2 zone for n easy layup. it just wasnt even close.

also got to see the owners close up as their seats are directly across from us. it is all about the show and being seen. it appears to be purely a social event, no disdain and little concern nor apparant insight. one got into the game looking like a big child pulling out his toy megaphone to yell as the hawks “rallied” to within ten of the spurs. what they dont see is how big nba basketball could be in this city. this city wants and will deliver if they have a prduct but are too discriminating to get behind this. i could even see a game or two a season being played in the ga. dome in the right setting. someone with vision and committment will have to come on board to acheive that.

finally, to comment on horford. he is a stud, quite a kid and over matched where he is expected to play. i seriously doubt he is as big as they say. he looks to be within millimeters as the same height as j. slop (which he was last night) instead of within one inch of duncan. that is one of the longest one inch differential that i have seen in my life. duncan appears much taller than horford and much longer in the arms making the difference even more exaggerated than it is.

somehow what is on paper doesnt translate into what you see on the floor and that might be an apt description of what is really who your and my hawks are. maybe good on paper but it doesnt translate onto the floor. we are now 3 and 7 and a team that hasnt one a game on the road in essentially a third of a season including the dregs of the end of a season has to play what four of the next six on the road? reality without the kool aide? could get real ugly real fast unless ths team somehow solidifies and consolidates to become a team. now where are those predicting 40 plus wins and a shot at the playoffs?

By hawks-4-life

November 21, 2007 7:54 AM | Link to this

40 wins…right now i cant see 14.

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 8:03 AM | Link to this

doc

I was one of those guys predicting a 40 win season…not necessarily the playoffs, but certainly an improved team. Of course, I from time to time, enjoy taking a break from reality and living in never never land.

By hawks-4-life

November 21, 2007 8:20 AM | Link to this

crickets crickets crickets crickets crickets crickets crickets crickets

This place is starting to resemble our attendance. DEAD!!! Understandably too, these guys better start winning.

By doc

November 21, 2007 8:27 AM | Link to this

johngt, we got a lot in common. my first name is john and my granddad played for heisman on the team that won 222-0 over cumberland college. if the gt stands for ga tech i am steeped in the tradition. no foul for wanting to see these hawks fly. i want to see it very bad, what i see is nothing more that what i have seen the last two years; a .333 winning percentage with no team play and no clue about team offense or true help defense other than j. slop with his back side blocks which leaves an easy offensive rebound as there is no one boxing his man out if both he and the shooter miss. over manned and over matched and is there a kool aide drinker out there that truly can give REASON why we can all expect this team to ascend with two rookies playing key nba positions that has long been acknowledged by all to be our WEAKEST link and achilles heel? that of course being point guard and true big in the paint which horford, bless his heart, isnt.

shameful, that the guy with the lowest salary brings the energy to this team to ally back from a 24 point deficit. mirrors, bring them out soon, starting at the top with the broken atlanta spirit. cant they find a buyer that would make everyone happy? they could still probably afford front row courtside seats, no?

By Willie Coyote

November 21, 2007 8:28 AM | Link to this

Who’d a thought that PG depth would be a problem at any point this year. At least there was a legit reason that Salim didn’t play this time.

Josh has got to stop forcing things. He’s trying so hard to be the 2nd go-to guy that he doesn’t realize what he should be doing. He needs to play off others and get his offense like Childress does accept with a little more post-up isolation. Joe and Marvin are the ones who can fill it up consistantly. I think Marvin would benefit from being a tad more selfish on the offensive end instead of deferring himself to a third option at times.

By hawks-4-life

November 21, 2007 8:41 AM | Link to this

WILLIE C…you’re right on about JS and MW. For all the talents JS may have, he is clearly not meant to carry an offense. Like you said what he can do is feed of others but i think he is too stubborn to that. MW is great potential offensivly. He can do it all right now except hit the 3 consistently. What i like most bout him is his ability to draw the foul, something no one else on the team does. Out of curiosity, it is still unknown to me what kind of talent AL have. We never run plays for the guy and he does shot a high percentage. Now im not saying he is a threat or we should run the offense through him but right now he is still an unknown commodity.

By oldmike

November 21, 2007 8:41 AM | Link to this

Everything we need to know or feel about this Hawks team can be viewed courtside each night as Woodson stands expressionless, his arms folded, his too wide shouldered suit unruffled. His rotation is…Oh wait he has none. His offense has become…Oh wait, he has none. At least he has a defensive strategy. Matador. He has to go. But the reality of it all is we lose a whole training camp to acclimate the players to a new coach. And the coaches that might make a difference are employed elsewhere. We are stuck. Beyond Woody the owners need to go. Would you want this product to carry your name?

By hawks-4-life

November 21, 2007 8:45 AM | Link to this

GIVING THANKS: WHAT ARE YOU THANKFUL FOR HAWK NATION!!!

I thankful im alive and well and that god has blessed me with a strong heart cause any weaker and these hawks might kill me.

By hawks-4-life

November 21, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this

ATLANTA BROKEN SPIRIT!!!!

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

I hear ya doc Only 10 games into the season, I already feel bad for Horford. This guy is busting it every night and not getting the same from his teammates. I’m certain he didn’t envision this coming out of Florida. This team has tons of talent…we all, as well as the rest of the NBA, knows it…it’s obvious. What they don’t have is fire and motivation…COACH WOODSON!!!! Our PG situation is no different than years past…nor is our C position. Horford will be a very good NBA POWER FORWARD. Woodson will destroy this kid if he’s allowed to continue being the coach (I refuse to call his “effort” coaching). I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again…he’s like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn’t there.

Yes, I’m a big GT fan. I’ll be pulling hard for the kids in the flats on Saturday…sadly there’s another place in ATL where a new coach is badly needed…seems to be quite a theme in the ATL these days.

It’s so hard not to pull for this team. I grew up watching this team, and I hate never getting to see them play (stationed in DC). But I am still going to the game here against the Wiz on Dec 21…got great seats and I’ll be cheering loudly (when the 2nd half begins because they’re awful in the 1st). I guess I’m still spoiled from the days of Nique, Rollins, Rivers, Whitman, Willis, Blaylock, Smitty, Dikembe, etc.

By Tiger Woo

November 21, 2007 8:50 AM | Link to this

How the h*ll do they let Tony Parker slash through the lane for layup after layup? Where is the help defense? Somebody needed to step up and knock him on the floor. That was embarassing. Poor Anthony Johnson didn’t have a chance. Manu Ginobili came in and absolutely torched J-Chill. Meanwhile, the Hawks offense was a joke. No type of purpose or cohension in what they were trying to do - while the Spurs ran a clinic on offensive execution. Pretty sad.

By vdunkndunk

November 21, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this

Fire Wooody! Trade Josh Smith! Fire Woody! Trade Josh Smith! Fire Woody! Trade Josh Smith! Fire Woody!

Marvin and Horford are our forwards of the future!!!!!!!!!!!!

By doc

November 21, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

jgt, hear ya, keep it in the road.

will be at a house divided party as we had a few defectors along the way including my daughter this saturday to watch what might not be pleasant. better n say much more as the quiet to now honest abe, for the most part, might jump in here to ream me.

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 9:16 AM | Link to this

Here’s an email I sent to the Atlanta Spirit (what an oxymoron that is). I know it won’t be read…or it will be discarded…but I had to get it off my chest…

I highly doubt this will be read, much less responded to…but I have to ask. If for no other reason, to get this off my chest. I’m a lifelong Hawks fan and I’m curious…how long are you going to wait before you get rid of your “coach”. Yes, the Hawks are our team, but like 99.9% of Hawks fans, he is not our “coach”. As always, we started the season with promise and hope. If this team starts the season with a 3 or 4 win November…and 4 is highly unlikely, then you will have already lost your fan base by December 1st. That is truly pathetic. You owners should really check out Sekou Smith’s blog on AJC.com. That is where your fans are. That is where you’ll truly find what the fans think of this team, coach, BK, and ownership. Your product is “alright”…certainly a lot of talent…but simply not good enough to compete for a playoff spot. Billy Knight has put together good talent, but he has no knowledge on how to put together a squad to actually WIN. The coach he hired is nothing short of AWFUL. The man has no emotion…no drive…no clue how to motivate. He looks like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn’t there. Al Horford will be something truly special…but if you continue to allow Woodson to coach him, then Horford will be ruined. You can bet the bank on it!!!!

The Hawks fans would truly like to know…and DESERVE TO KNOW…what are you going to do to fix this???? We deserve nothing less!!!! If you can’t see the “train wreck” that is currently the Atlanta Hawks…could you please do the entire city of Atlanta a favor and sell the team? Let a “true” owner come in that is “COMMITTED TO WINNING”. I mean, isn’t that what it’s really all about? Well, for you people, I know it’s nothing more than money. But here’s a clue for you…you own a professional sports team. What draws revenue in professional sports? WINS WINS WINS…and then WINS. This city is dying for a winner and you have such an incredible opportunity here to provide that to the city. If you put a winner on the floor Phillips Arena would sell out every night like the Omni used to (THE GOOD DAYS). You’ll see Hawks jerseys, shirts, hats, etc all over the state of Georgia and surrounding areas. People will get to see them on TNT and ESPN. The players will ENJOY playing in the ATL. The majority are probably already figuring out ways to play elsewhere in the next year or two, because you have failed them. And you have failed them miserably. So here’s my ultimate question to the “owners” of the Atlanta Hawks…WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?

By Tiger Woo

November 21, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

Royal Ivey had 15 points for the Bucks last night - but he’s not good enough to play for the Hawks? I would take him over Anthony Johnson any day - at least he can play defense.

By smartguy

November 21, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

Thats awesome, GTJohn. Do you have the address where I can send them a note as well?

By I.MUS WRITE

November 21, 2007 10:04 AM | Link to this

OBSERVATIONS: Josh Smith is determined to be the second scoring option on this team. Can somebody tell dude his jumper is broken. How can a player have you on the edge of your seat one day and covering your eyes the next. The rebounding and shot blocking ability are off the charts but your offense stinks in most games,brick after brick-that was bad!!!!Stick to what u do best and stop forcing your nonexistent jumpshot. BRIGHT SPOT: Horford needs to have some plays run for him on the post, the guy is really strong inside and can overpower most PF one on one.I liked the way he handled bussiness against Timmy. Marvin -dam that boi can shoot. They are the two bright spots so far this season. JJ -open your mouth and get in somebody’s face.If u are our leader act like it.Josh should have got an earful after all those missed hooks and jumpers. Woody-……… No comment-we all feel the same. Im surprised TP didnt go for 40. I predicted 25,but when I saw Aj was our only healthy PG that number went to 40……….. DAM IT -absolutely nothing has changed from last year. I was so excited after the home opener too….. I should have known better. Itz hard to stay on the wagon ,but im still riding…………HAWKS!!!

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 10:11 AM | Link to this

owners@atlantaspirit.com

By Melvin

November 21, 2007 10:12 AM | Link to this

Roan St, I also heard/saw the Kevin Willis interview last nite during halftime on NBA TV. “The players need to stop fussing amongst each other and run the system Woody has in place.” - Kevin Willis. Sounds like this coach has loss control of this team. Hopefully, they will give Woody a pink slip after the Miami game. This would allow the interim coach a fews days of practice and adjustment period.

By Tiger Woo

November 21, 2007 10:13 AM | Link to this

Quotes from the Hawks and my responses:

“The lights were out early,” Hawks swingman Josh Childress said. “It was a total power outage. You can’t chalk it up as just one of those days because we turned it on late. … We have to come out with some tenacity at the start of games. That’s just the bottom line.”

—- We have heard that before - when are you going to do something about it and start the games with some urgency and intensity?

“That’s the world champions right there, and they played like it,” Hawks coach Mike Woodson said. “Parker came in and had his way; we couldn’t keep him in front of us.”

—- Why couldn’t someone step up and slow Parker’s progress to the basket?

“This is the first time all season, I think, that playing without some guys really hurt us,” Horford said. “You saw there was only really nine or 10 of us out there trying to deal with them. And we started off a little sluggish. Mario changed the game in the second half with his energy, but we have to be able to start games like that.”

—- What is stopping the Hawks from coming out with energy? You know you are playing the NBA champs. What more motivation do you need?

“Parker did tonight what he does best,” said Joe Johnson , who led the Hawks with 20 points. “He had a bunch of layups. He pretty much goes where he wants to on the court.”

—- Well, if you let Parker stroll through the lane at will, what do you expect? A little more effore on defense might help.

By SSI Fan

November 21, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Al Horford should be the Hawks starting power forward. He has the size, strength, and ability to effectively play with his back to the basket, sort of like Tim Duncan does. However, he is undersized for the center positon on a regular basis.

The Hawks will not be consistent winners with Josh Smith and Marvin as the forwards who play the majority of the minutes. I prefer Marvin at small forward. If Smith were not from Atlanta, I wonder whether there would be so much fan support for his erratic game.

Could the Hawks get a legitimate center by trading Smith? Remember you have to give up quality to get quality. The Hawks seem reluctatnt to make a trade for fear of making a mistake. Not making trades is sometimes a bigger mistake.

By mavid

November 21, 2007 10:50 AM | Link to this

I havent been able to post as much (damn full-time job), but it’s time to make a trade.

Smoove/Zaza for Gasol

Horford is a stud. He can make multiple all-star games playing the 4. Not saying that Smoove can’t, but I am saying that a front-court of Marvin, Horf and Gasol is way more imposing than one of Marvin, Smoove and Horford.

It’s tough, because he’s an ATL kid. But, he’s also our best bargaining chip.

So yeah, trade for Gasol and then Calderon from Toronto.

The two spaniards will be happy together, and we will finally have a balanced roster.

And I would package either Chill or Law to get Calderon… who is EXACTLY the pg we need.

By TJ

November 21, 2007 10:53 AM | Link to this

Ok, I think I’ve had it. The Hawks showed last night the reason why they get no national TV time. The Hawks are playing with a broken “wing” (Joe Johnson) and a broken “(Atlanta) spirit”. Something’s gotta give, somebody’s gotta lose a job, somebody needs to fight during practice, during a game, something…

I’m afraid that the team is gonna quit on each other. They look worse this year than last because of the expectations. This year, everyone had expectations and they’re not living up to them. JJ looks dead, seeing JJ’s dead shot, Josh shoots and looks lost, and Marvin looks like he could help (but then Josh shoots). Based on the effort that’s being put forth, the starting lineup SHOULD BE Acie, Mario, Child, Marvin, and the Gator. They are the five that are playing like they give a d@mn. Shelden’s trying, AJ’s trying, Salim tries when he gets to play (but he doesn’t). HONESTLY, I feel like even Woody is trying, but they are not listening to him (wink wink Thrashers). Hopefully, they won’t dry up like the water..

I’m not jumping off of my 42-47 win prediction. Not yet..but somebody needs to lose their job - coach, players, GM, owners, it don’t matter, something’s gotta give. Acie and Al have to teach these guys how to have heart. It’s a shame cuz they’re rookies, but while they still remember how to win (Childs ain’t at Stanford, Marvin ain’t at UNC anymore..) YELL AT YOUR OLDER TEAMMATES. Acie, play 2-man ball with Al until they get it.

Ugh.

By The Dark Karma

November 21, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

Tonight, Horford will be forced to face Shaq. And then Mourning. Another lesson in a long line of them. Horford is doing well, despite playing out of position. But it cannot last. Eventually he will be burned out. This is Knight’s fault for not putting a true center on this team to help Horford.

Woodson is at fault by not running offensive plays for Horford. Therefore, he is not able to put added pressure on the opposing team’s interior defense. In reality, he would be the only true source of interior offensive pressure. Josh Smith is capable of it in spurts, but lacks consistency. His ability is ungaugable, but his fundamentals are sorely lacking. Working on true post moves, such as the hook shot and drop-step will make him deadlier than ever. Until then, every back to the basket move is a hopeful shot and not a planned attack.

It is much easier to practice these higher percentage shots than it is the jumpshot. As of right now, his jumpshot does not exist. I would venture to say that he has not hit more than 10 jumpshots in these first ten games.

Prepare for another defeat this evening. O’Neal and Wade will be available for the game. That is all that is needed to defeat our chaotic group. How unfortunate.

The ownership of this organization is no more than a collection of imbeciles whose basketball and business ignorance are of global proportions. It is no small wonder then, that they have hired and maintain the employment of yet another fool who can neither pick the right players in a draft, nor find the right coach for the team he has assembled. The coach’s one saving grace is that he may do well in an environment where the team build and ability match his philosophy and ability. But such is not, and never will be the case here. If Belkin had won, what would our world like now?

Not many are preaching the search for the light at the end of the tunnel now. Even rats know when a ship is sinking.

By Like Cocaine Straight From Bolivia

November 21, 2007 11:01 AM | Link to this

Are you fellas on crack? The problem with this team is not Josh Smith, Marvin Williams, Al Horford. Any suggestion of trading any of them demonstrates your lack of knowledge about basketball.

How can you expect your team to win when the team is fatally flawed because they have no point guard. Repeat, they have no point guard. Repeat, they have no point guard.

That includes Acie Law. He was not playing like a point guard with vision. Acie is a very talented guy. Can get into the key at will. But he is a scorer. He does not dribble with his head up looking in all directions with peripheral vision. He dribbles with his head up looking straight at the rim.

You can’t win with talent like Josh Smith, Josh Childress, Al Horford, and Marvin Williams unless you have a point guard. None of them are post up guys. None of them are outside threats (despite Marvin developing a lethal mid range game). None of them are creators who find ways to get to the hoop off the dribble.

I’m sorry to say this but Joe Johnson is another problem with this team. Joe does not elevate the play of the players around him. Joe does not play good defense. Joe simply does not make the players around him better. He’s just a ballhog who can only make himself look good.

But sad to say Joe is still the best point guard on the team despite not being a point guard and he has the most vision of any point guard on the team. Very sad truth.

Joe is a pseudo superstar. A guy who can score alot on bad teams. But just another good valuable third or fourth player on a very good playoff team like he was before he became a Hawk.

If the Hawks want to get better, they are better off trading Joe Johnson. This team needs a point guard really bad. It will hurt to lose Joe’s outside game pretty bad and his halfcourt game pretty bad but this just ain’t working.

Outside of Joe, no one can do anything in the half court.

The dopey general manager has poorly constructed this team. If you are gonna have the kind of athletic talent you have in Horford, Childress, Smith, Marvin who are not legit inside or outside threats, then you need to find yourself a point guard who pushes the ball and sees everyone on the court so the team does not get bogged down in the half court set where none of their players can do anything effective or efficient.

The dopey coach with the talent that he has needs to understand the strengths and weaknesses of his players. If none of them are outside threats and none of them are inside threats and none of them are creators, then is it not imperative that the freaking coach design plays and be a tactical magician with the Xs and Os so that he can win? Wouldn’t off the ball movement be critical? Pick and rolls, backcuts, and so forth to take advantage of the strengths and minimize the weaknesses.

I love Josh Smith but son you can not shoot from the outside. You are still only 21 years old. Stop playing for your contract which in your juvenile mind means you have to be the man and score 20 points a game and have a versatile repertoire. That ain’t you …… YET. Get over yourself man …. do the beautiful things you do …… stop trying to be who you wanna be and be who you really are.

Same ole. Same ole. Dopey GM, Dopey coach, no point guard, no off the ball movement, no legit post up big man, no half court game, no strategy from the coach, not enough up tempo, and an offense that revolves around making sure the ballhog 2 guard gets his.

It’s been said many a time. FIRE BILLY! FIRE WOODY!

And TRADE JOE JOHNSON!

By mykhalc

November 21, 2007 11:19 AM | Link to this

TJ, i hear ya man!!! it’s been about the rooks from DAY ONE!!! they’re the ones that bring some smarts and a winnin’ attitude to this team, only to be stuck with an over-matched coach and cats they that DO NOT play ‘team’ball’!!!!

i’ve seen ACIE get in JS’ face with JS then obviously refuse to pass him the ball!!??!! WTF was that???? some playground sh$t, no doubt!!

and your lineup of who deserves to play right now is dead on point!!!

we’ve got a number of GRADY JACKSONs on the team, a coach that looks waaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyy over-matched and has lost the team, and the best player lookin’ like his interest fluctuates nitely dependin’ on the play of his supportin’ cast!!!

MAVID, i really like the JS/ZAZA for GASOL trade!! if only MEM would be so inclined!!!!! you think we could get their coach too??????

By doc

November 21, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

i gotta laugh at horford’s assessment. i guess he wants to play 6 or 7 on five as a way to stop the nba champs. as far as i could tell they only played 10 guys, too, in a blow out and sat their main guys for significant minutes to manage the game for tonight.

wow, did we give up ivey a year too early? i did mention his name a blog or too earlier, guess someone else is watching. it is just the same song, different verse. we gave up on ivey or didnt give him a chance without a significant collar around his neck and went out and gave up a draft choice for a has been, never been, point guard. geeesh!

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 12:05 PM | Link to this

Mavid

I like that trade also…but don’t think Memphis would ever go for it. Now…if we throw Lue or Johnson into the mix since their PG situation is horrible as well, maybe something could be done. However, if the coach doesn’t change, it won’t really matter much.

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this

And I would NOT trade JJ. Now saying that, considering the current team, I would put him at the 1, move Marvin to the 2, Smith at the 3, Horford at the 4, and platoon bigdumbandclumsy with Solo, Shelden, and Wright(if he ever plays again) at the 5. Use 4 guys to just be physical and rebound. If they total 20 - 25 pts a night between the 4 of them, great. that’s 24 fouls between 4 people to really beat up interior players from opposing teams. Just my thoughts as I’m getting ignorant here because I’m getting frustrated again thinking of this team. LOL

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 12:17 PM | Link to this

doc Not to disagree with your assessment about Ivey…but I don’t think we gave up on him too early. Same goes with Diaw, and any other Hawks that leave and will do great things. The problem in ATL is the same…there is NO SYSTEM! The coach is a bumbling idiot. Those guys flourish in a “system” designed to get the most out of their players…WHAT A CONCEPT THAT IS WOODSON!

By The Dark Karma

November 21, 2007 12:23 PM | Link to this

Mavid, I agree with your trade ideas. Except for the idea of letting Law go. I think he has yet to be given a chance to prove just how good he can be. He’s a rook that has played decently so far. I’d still like to have Calderon, though. I don’t think giving up Chill is a good idea to get him, though. We need Chill, particularly if he is willing to be a dedicated sixth man who gets around 30 minutes a night. It would be hard to replace what he brings off the bench. And he has been consistent.

By The Dark Karma

November 21, 2007 12:27 PM | Link to this

Obviously, someone is sampling their own cocaine…that was by far one of the worst assessments of the players on this team that I’ve ever seen. Yeah, it MUST be the cocaine…

By cp

November 21, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

Yea I pulled hard for Woodson to succeed here but its not happening. It seems as if he has lost the team. I still dont know what type of offensive sets we have At this point he is just a assistant coach playing head coach. BK hired his friend instead of a head coach.. I dont even know what can be done to turn this around and light a fire under these guys. A new coach could probably help. As far as JJ, love the guy but as mentioned before he just doesnt make the players around him better. He is very quiet and doesnt seem to have that fire. I mean its nothing wrong with that but this team needs a guy who will get in their face and demand better play from them. I was hoping to see them play .500 ball but at this point this teams looks just as bad as last years version. Press up the fire Billy and Woody tee’s. Hell add the spirit to that too.

By randy

November 21, 2007 12:35 PM | Link to this

If the Hawks can’t beat the friggin Heat tonight, I seriously might not watch the Hawks again until they FIRE WOODSON! I really hope they win, because I really want this team to be good, but they can’t shoot, they allow to many easy buckets and turn the ball over like they are playing “Hot Potato”. But however horrible Woodson is, firing him isn’t gonna solve too much I fear. Billy Knight is the real culprit, bringing in a bunch of forwards that can’t spread the floor the way teams like the Spurs can. Only 2 players on our whole team can shoot a 3 pointer, Joe Johnson who always has 3 people on him and little Salim who hardly ever plays. All we have are 4 forwards trying to drive to the basket and running into a 7 foot center that buries them. FIRE BILLY AND WOODY!!!

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 12:53 PM | Link to this

randy Unfortunately, you won’t be watching for a while then. I don’t think BK or the Spirit have enough guts to do what they know is right…fire that putz. And ATL probably will not beat the Heat..they probably won’t win again this month.

By A Thinking Fan

November 21, 2007 1:11 PM | Link to this

Woodson You control your own children! You teach Bb skills in practice! You lead your team into battle during the game! It is all documented & driven by your “written out” coaches’ manual. Pop has his program in order. Woodson needs to watch, listen, and learn from Pop…

By rob

November 21, 2007 1:13 PM | Link to this

I am almost torn at this point. Yes I want us to win and succeed but I feel like winning will only mask our deeper problems. It has been obvious for quite some time Woodson is not right for this job. I think he has a great Bball mind and in the right enviroment may thrive as an assistant, ie detroit. For this team to move forward there must be a replacement. I hate to say it but I almost want to see us lose until the change is made. We will see how out of hand ownership and BK allows it to get before they are forced to make a move and begin the new Hawks era. It would be foolish to think after over 3 years of this program things will miraculously change. Are there any official rumblings going around other than on blogs by disgruntled fans such as myself?

By Ryder

November 21, 2007 1:15 PM | Link to this

Atlanta already has a pg in Acie Law….provided he ever comes back.

However there is a bigger question at hand: say you do trade Josh Smith for a bonafide 5 (Gasol is a 4, don’t kid yourselves) that can rebound and play defense. Where are you going to get the additional scoring from? Like it or not Smoove is the slasher that this team needs. You can’t trade Marvin because he is playing well at the 3. So this unit will have to play small ball until they get a real bruiser. I hear Charles Oakley can still get up and down the floor.

So what to do if your Woodson? Remember everyone, he’s not going to be let go until after the season, so let it go. Management doesn’t want to pay anyone else extra money.

Woodson first and foremost must stop his love of Zaza and place him on the bench. Perhaps Zaza is like Marbury and has something on Woodson, which is the only explaination he’s still in the lineup. Secondly, Anthony Johnson should NEVER start another NBA game as long as he lives, not even on a video game. In the event Acie Law ever comes back you start Lue and then pray for rain.

Hey, it’s never too early to speculate on the draft…. um never mind.

By Clyde

November 21, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

I wonder what Clyde=moron and Ken Strickland have to say about the start of the season for the Hawks.

Hey Hey

Ho Ho

Billy and Woody Got’s Ta Go

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By smartguy

November 21, 2007 2:31 PM | Link to this

I’ll be happy with one of the two, just fire Woody, please. Even if we win tonight, just fire the DA.

By smartguy

November 21, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

The only coach worse than ours is Isiah. If we ever had enough fans at Phillips, we might actually be able to start a “FIRE WOODY” chant ourselves.

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 2:50 PM | Link to this

If this idiot is still the coach when ATL comes to DC on Dec 21…me and my friends are going to start the chant for “Fire Woodson” and get as many people as I can to join in…even if I have to offer free beer to Wizards fans! As painful as that would be…if it even helps a little to get rid of Woodson….I’M ALL FOR IT!!! I just hope he isn’t still the coach then.

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

WOW…I have yet to receive a reply from the Atlanta Spirit on my email….hahaha.

By roan st

November 21, 2007 3:26 PM | Link to this

I have been evaluating both josh smith and marvins offensive stats for the season. And quite simply marvin should shoot more and josh much less. I know thats not earth shattering news to any regulars here but…. If I were the coach Josh smith would be benched for two games if he ever dare take another three pointer. Currently he is shooting a pathetic 15% from 3 point line. Second I would tell him he must keep his offensive game about 12 feet and in or he will go to the bench. Third I would tell him we are going to concentrate on defense and rebounding. Fourth I would let him know that he is not going to be the second offensive option that job belongs to marvin. Then I sit marvin down and show him that he is leading the team in field goal percentage and explain to him that it is his job on this team to be the second scorer. I would tell him that he must increase his average of only 12.5 field goal attempts to around 18-20 per game. Conversely josh smith would be cut down from 16 attempts per game to about 10. Of course if josh were having a big game while playing near the basket then you go with the hot hand. Otherwise he will concentrate on his defense and rebounding. Simply he would be told to shoot less. Of course this won’t work with woody coaching because they don’t listen to him anyway. But I find it a joke that Marvin has so much more of a refined offensive game and yet josh the bricklayer smith takes more shots. A real NBA coach would put a stop to this bull$hit.

By roan st

November 21, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

I hope if woodson is fired that BK is sent to the bench to show the spirit how this lineup is suppose to work. Hey they did it to waddell and he responded by going 10-4 which took the heat off of himself for the moment. Both children should receive equal punishment, right? Give knight about 20 games on the bench and if he can’t get it done like waddell has then fire his a$$ just like woodson. That would be my dream scenario.

By Tap Daddy

November 21, 2007 3:50 PM | Link to this

I got to agree with you Roan St…Josh Smith is a gifted athlete but he really shouldnt be the 2nd option offensively..He should get all of his points on fast breaks and put backs…kind of like Shawn Marion or AK-47….his offensive game has to many holes yet constantly were stuck with the shot clock running down and the ball in his hands out in 3 point land where he has no business being….Joe should be option one, followed by Marvin, followed by Zaza or Hortford on the block…Alot of people might disagree with me but I really think the Hawks should move Smith. I just dont ever see him and Marvin being a good combination at the 3 and 4 spot…there both really 3’s and a year from now how do you really keep Horford from starting the the power forward spot? I’m not certain who we could get for him but I think he would draw some interest from around the league and could probably bring us a true big man to man the middle or a starting point guard…but really I dont blame Josh Smith, the blame should fall on Woodson for allowing him to feel so comfortable jacking long 3’s and trying to be one of the focus points on offense…but I got a question for your guys…Do you guys really see the Hawks future being sucessful with Marvin and Josh as the starting 3 and 4???

By Atlanta Spirit Ownership

November 21, 2007 3:58 PM | Link to this

Mr. JohnGTfan,

Thank you for your interest in our poorly built and poorly coached organization. While we appreciate your concerns about the direction of the Atlanta Hawks franchise, please be assured that we are doing our best to ensure that a winning team never graces the floor of Philips Arena.

We are unable to send a more detailed response to your inquiry at this time due to the fact that we are highly incompetent. We are unable to agree on a take out order much less unable to understand how to operate this once proud and profitable franchise.

In the meantime, please continue to enjoy individual acheivements by our poorly developed players and numerous losses to real NBA teams.

We appreciate your blind support and we hope to see you at the HIGHLIGHT FACTORY!

Sincerely,

The Atlanta Spirit Ownership

By Gcode

November 21, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

Listen, as a former D-1 football player, (Couldn’t make the cut in the league) there is one and only one thing that seperates athletes, THE MENTAL. At the highest level, everyone runs a 4.4, bench presses 350+, squats 425, etc., but the mental sorts the super stars from the “blooper stars.” Coach Woodson has lost the team. When I experienced a coaching change, new energy, new methodology, and a new belief was experienced. We went from 3-8 to 10-2, winning a bowl game with the new coach. My point is this, coaches preach philosophies in practice, but when you continue losing, players stop believing the system and as a matter of fact start questioning it. The Hawks will not experience a change until they get rid of Woody. Case and point, the Orlando Magic of this year, the Lakers when Phil came in, the Cowboys of this year. Coaching changes mean alot to players’ mental. You can look at the body language of the players going into the timeouts.

By roan st

November 21, 2007 4:15 PM | Link to this

Tap daddy, there are a contingent of guys on this blog that have been saying for a long time that eventually either marvin or josh will have to go. And today that is more evident than ever since the lineup of marvin / smith / horford has failed, as predicted by a few, especially our resident GM HB ANDO. And no MYKHALC I’m not saying thats not our best option at the moment because I believe it is, just saying it’s not really the long term option either. If this team ever does acquire a center then what happens between marvin and josh? Horford is the prototypical power forward so his position on the team is solidified. Many don’t want to here it but one has to go. And that is why I can’t understand why some get so disjointed whenever one or the other is being talked about in trade scenerios for a young center. If that opportunity presents itself it’s a no brainer move to make.

By roan st

November 21, 2007 4:35 PM | Link to this

I have been looking at some offensive stats of other small forwards with similar games to marvins. And marvin stacks up very well with these other guys except in field goal attempts. Here is the list:

Kevin durant- 19.0 points, 18 FG ATT per game @ 37%, 5.25 FT ATT per game

Rashard Lewis- 21.2 points, 15 FG ATT per game @ 51%, 3.41 FT ATT per game

Andre Iguodola- 17.5 points, 15 FG ATT per game @ 43%, 5.4 FT ATT per game

Marvin Williams- 17 points, 12.5 FG ATT per game @ 52%, 4.8 FT ATT per game

If marvin would only take those 5 or 6 more shots per game then he would average more points and free throw attempts than any of these other comparable small forwards. Marvin has the best field goal percentage of all plus has shown a knack for getting to the charity stripe. Like I said in my earlier post josh should be told to shoot less so marvin can shoot more, period.

By Tap Daddy

November 21, 2007 4:44 PM | Link to this

Gcode,

I feel ya on that…same thing happened to me when I was at Portland State. We had a coaching change my senior year and it really changed some of the bad habits players developed under our other coach…different coaches take pride in certain areas whether its defense, rebounding, half court offense, fast breaking, etc, so I think a coaching change would help because the players are tuning Woody out…and Roan St, i’m with the guys that think one of them should go..I still think it has to be Josh Smith…Marvin is off to good start and will fit in regardless of what style we choose to play. But if we were to go get a true big man and line him up with Hortford and Smith at the three spot, we would be stuck with a non shooting 3 man (who for some reason thinks he can shoot) which would just mean more double teaming of Joe Johnson…I had a coach one time in Juco that broke it down to one of our assistant coaches and maybe you guys can relate to this story..our assistant coach kept on yelling “thats a good shot” to a teammate of mine after he had missed 4 or 5 wide open shots from three point land…he kept yelling “keep shooting, those are good looks”..and my Head Coach turned to him and finally said “shut the hell up and stop yelling that BS to him….he’s wide the hell open for a reason, the other team wants him to shoot that damn shot!!”…point is other teams love to see Josh Smith on the wing jacking up deep three’s..that’s the person they want to leave wide open and will take there chances with him hitting one or two but they know the odds are in there teams favor if that’s how the Hawks offense is gonna attack….really someone is gonna have to teach him to cut or screen on the weakside so he’s playing to his strenghs, not weaknesses….dont forget he’s right out of high school so alot of the “little things” you learn while in college are missing in his game…yeah, he might save us a few possessions each night with his shot blocking ability but if we had a true big man we wouldnt need that from our small forward…we need to move him…..

By roan st

November 21, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this

Tap daddy, I agree and in my recent trade scenario josh is the one I included, not marvin. In fact I think marvin will be a very good #3 if only he would become a little more agressive offensively. I have compared his stats and he stacks up well against some of the best young small forwards in the game. He just needs to step up and shoot those extra 5 or 6 shots a game and understand how much we need him to contribute more on the offensive end.

By JP

November 21, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

I can tell most of you bloggers have never won any basketball games youselves. Last nights game is a perfect illustration of why the Hawks lose more games than they should. The Spurs play inside-out basketball. They also make a point to drive the basketball. On defense-they stop the ball by moving their feet.

The Hawks on the other hand, because they have a coach with a poor offensive scheme are constantly playing outside- in. We need a coach who can get players to pass and cut, not shoot jumpers.

You dummies who want to trade Josh Smith need to understand how young, but how intelligent he is. He is very smart and will improve much more than Marvin. Josh is the best defensive player and best passer on the team. He is becoming the best penetrator. Yes Marvin can shoot, but he is a big defensive liability. He constantly gets beat by his man and never helps because he does not hustle. Smith Hustles. He is constantly helping his beaten teamates.

All you people who can’t play prove it with your words because you have no clue on who needs to be kept:

Keep Law, Joe, Josh, Josh, Al, and Saleem.

Everyone else could be traded for a Defensive/Rebounding Center.

By doc

November 21, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this

jgt, ivey played as though he had a choke collar around his neck and a short leash. never impressed me except he looked afraid to make a mistake, kind of how diaw ended up before he left. if we arent careful acie will end up in the same boat. woody and his cohorts are not even close to being a jerry sloan who directed deron williams emergence.

By The Flash

November 21, 2007 6:47 PM | Link to this

Look, you take Parker and whoever plays behind him off the court the other night, who wins?

Not saying the outcome would have been different if AC and T were there and played well, but they weren’t! Nor am I saying that Woody shouldn’t go (you think) or that BK has made good choices (YOU REALLY THINK).

That said, when they played the Zards I really liked a lot of things that they did. Saw MW coming into his own and saw Smooth pass the ball in ways, and move to the ball in ways, that both pleased and surprised.

BTW, the one context in which I can see Smooth flourishing in is a context in which there is a real tall 4 who really plays like a 3 but can defend the four. Two places I can think of off the top of my head. One would be Dallas, but I doubt that they would want to pay Smooth top dollar. Howard is a much, much better player, who they’d have to flip to the 2 spot if they wanted to start Smooth (Howard is a 3 for them, right?).

The second would be the Sonics. I have always coveted Green myself, but his addition would not really change things here.

I am not really familiar with either Philly or the Nets, but I can see Smooth being really valuable in either place. Whether they have value to give in return, as in a big, I don’t know that either.

Me, I’d really like a shot or two at Hibbert. I think he is going to be even better than I thought at the end of last season, which was pretty terrific, if any of you recall.

And, btw, don’t anybody anywhere, like my boy Coppenwrath? Not even you Andoman?

Later, guys, and do have a great Thanksgiving, even you Astroman.

By roan st

November 21, 2007 6:49 PM | Link to this

JP ,I think you’re over stating josh smith’s skill level a tad bit. The best passer and penetrator? If he was the best penetrator on the team then why does he have 3-16 shooting nights? And I would have to think that jj would be the best passer on the team right now. You also go on to state ” Last nights game is a perfect illustration of why the Hawks lose more games than they should. The Spurs play inside-out basketball”. Then you turn right around and defend the very guy who jacks up all kinds of crazy outside shots. Kind of contradictory if you ask me.

By mykhalc

November 21, 2007 7:32 PM | Link to this

ROAN ST, i’m feelin’ ya bro. HORFORD is my 5 until we have a better option. that’s all. definitely not disputin’ you, ANDO, BIG RAY, DOC, etc. i only dispute REESE in regards to JS!!!LOL just messin’ with ya REESE. tho i still scratch my head on your boy!!

fellas, this is who we got to dance with right now!! BUT WOODSON is a whole other story!!!! time for a change…PERIOD!!!!!

By JohnGTFan

November 21, 2007 8:46 PM | Link to this

29% shooting in the 1st half…..YES…29 PERCENT!!!!!

By hocker

November 21, 2007 9:22 PM | Link to this

3-8 after tonight. Has Woody signed a contract extension yet today?

By Dub C

November 21, 2007 9:30 PM | Link to this

JohnGTFan…that’s right. 29% in the first half and it’s not looking much better in the 3rd. I’m sorry, I’m a huge JS fan, but he’s really struggling the last couple of games with his shooting and his shot selection. During last night’s game, he took some crazy shots in the 4th quarter. But he’s still my boy. He just needs to settle down and start letting the game come back to him. He seems to be pushing it a bit.

By Ramon

November 21, 2007 9:45 PM | Link to this

On this night before Thanksgiving, I’m THANKFUL Smush Parker doesn’t play for the Hawks.

By Matt

November 21, 2007 10:13 PM | Link to this

WAY TO GO, HAWKS!!!! Great come-from-behind win!!!

By Dub C

November 21, 2007 10:13 PM | Link to this

Hawks Win!!! It was ugly, but a win is a win. I’ll take it on the road anyday!

By doc

November 21, 2007 10:16 PM | Link to this

uh huh, just as expected, the unexpected.

all have a super holiday. peace for all and many thoughts of being thankful for so much. happy thanksgiving to all that come to the blog z liar’s table. all is good, even the broken atlanta spirit.

mike, for you, goooo hawks!

By A Thinking Fan

November 21, 2007 10:18 PM | Link to this

AH Does the heavy lifting and dirty work when it counts…

By Melvin

November 21, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this

Oh my… you hate him then you love him, you hate him then you love him again… the immaculation of Josh Smith… Player make plays this kid has a knack to make plays. Some plays are good and some plays are bad…JSmoove plays in the last 3 mins of the game-nice post move to score in the paint. then two questionable shot attempts. follow by two big free throws. then a game saving block shot… The kid has heart. Did Marvin pull a Jchill at the foul line tonite. Going 1 out 2 with game on the line. Hats off to Woody for finally benching Jchill clumsy a$$ in the final minutes of the game… Eventhough i’m happy for the win tonite. this may delay the firing of Wooodson for another week or two….

By Ben

November 21, 2007 10:45 PM | Link to this

Sekou, is there a way you could ask Woody why Marvin is not being more aggressive / not getting the ball more?

By kwooden1

November 21, 2007 10:46 PM | Link to this

HAWKS WIN! HAWKS WIN! I only listened to a little bit of the game and reviewed the ugly stats. Let me know how the game looked for those who saw. Did they move the ball and just miss alot of open shots or did the Heat just choke away a lead and play like garbage?

GO HAWKS!

By doc

November 21, 2007 11:00 PM | Link to this

probably more the latter as the heat are a very bad team now. the block of dwayne was big league though to snuff him near the end.

By mykhalc

November 21, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

ATF, thanks for lettin’ me know my man HORFORD did it again!!! watched the first 7 mins and turned it off. boxscore shows that ZAZA shows why he’s startin’!!! just a flat out monster on the glass!!! geeeeesssssshhhhhh

i’m glad the boyz won but it really changes nothin’ except the record.

HAPPY T-day all!!!!!! safe travels to all!!!

By JerryWest

November 21, 2007 11:31 PM | Link to this

20 seconds left in the game.

JJ has the ball in his hand dribbling outside the 3 point line.

Where is Marvin?

He is hiding at the right corner of the court outside the 3 pt line.

Why?

Has he ever taken a 3 pointer from the right corner?

He wasn’t even moving. Did someone tell him to stay out of the way?

The middle is empty and JJ gets double teamed.

Who goes to the middle and who is allowed by the Heat to take an uncontested jump shot?

Who could design a play like that?

Why wasn’t Josh under the basket (or at the corner,yuck), and Marvin in the middle to make sure JJ doesn’t get double teamed? or take that midrange jumper to seal the game when JJ inevitably gets double teamed?

How dumb is our coach allowed to become before he gets fired? How many games will he cost us with his dumbness?

Where was Horford at the end of the game. He was playing great. Zaza was invisible in the last 6 minutes.

By Ryder

November 21, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this

Wow the Hawks won! Don’t know whether to be upset because people will start to think Woodson’s an actual coach or excited because I can go out in public without a paper bag over my head that says “No.1 Hawks fan”.

OH well, Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

By JerryWest

November 21, 2007 11:48 PM | Link to this

A win is a win, but if we are idiot enough to hide a hot Marvin at the right corner outside the 3 pt line, we are so dysfunctional that we are going nowhere until we get a brain replacement operation. 1 win is too minor to rejoice when we play like headless chicken.

By reese

November 22, 2007 12:08 AM | Link to this

First of all great win hawks. I missed the first half of tonights and last nights game. But what you guys (especially, ray, mykhalc,roan st,Mavid,the dark karma,johngtfan, hawks 4 life) really need to do is Watch, Listen and Learn from Reese.

Josh Smith is the real deal. If he is having a bad shooting game, it doesn’t mean that he can’t score. It doesn’t mean that he stops getting rebounds. It doesn’t mean that he stops getting assist. He doesn’t stop trying to help his teammates on defense. He doesn’t stop trying to block shots. Most Importantly, he is the only player that has proven that he can make game winning or tying plays on either the offensive or defensive end.

Marvin Williams is a nice complimentary player. However, right now he has the mindset of a Josh, but it just happens to be Josh Childress. He is content to be in the background and doesn’t want to be the go to guy on either offensive or defense.

I like that fact that Marvin had a double double, I like that Marvin had positive stats in all the positive offensive/defensive categories. I don’t like the fact that he only took 8 shots.

People criticize Josh for shooting, but childress, jj, marvin and AJ keep passing to him and then they are not getting open. You guys blame woody for not taking josh out for shooting 3’s or open jumpers. However, for the teams long term success, Josh is going to have to learn to make those shots. I am more interested in what they are doing in practice to prepare him to get better at shooting.

Sekou, does Josh stay after practice and practice shooting. Have they hired a shooting coach. Why haven’t they taught their players how to correctly run a pick and roll. Set screens, etc.

Josh, stay aggressive on both ends of the floor, continue to mix in driving and posting so that you can get to the free throw line. But make a better percentage of your free throws.

Marvin, take more shots than Josh Smith. Its that simple. Don’t be afraid to make mistakes and so what if your shooting percentage goes down some.

Since some are quoting past coaches, I had one say to me, “your to unselfish, stop passing the ball and shoot”. Marvin, he only had to tell me that once. How many times do we need to tell you.

Happy Holidays everyone

By mykhalc

November 22, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this

REESE, good one man. LOL you obviously have opened a bottle of the ‘holiday cheer’ already!! keep on sippin’ my friend!!! enjoy!!!

By AJC Knowitalls

November 22, 2007 1:10 AM | Link to this

Jp- Great comments. Glad someone else sees it. I like Marvin & Chill but until they make a play when it matters I don’t respect it. All of you JS haters. He make every big free throw when it counts. Marvin runs from the ball in the 4th. Chill doesn’t want it. Go take a look at there free throw% in the last minute of the game. I bet you JS has a % much higher % than both of them. Jerry WestWoody doesn’t have an offense that is the problem. There is no coach in the NBA that runs a flat for his best player for the whole 4th quarter. For all you basketball experts that is when JJ is iso at the top of the key and the rest of the team is 4 underneath the ft line. JJ & JS work too hard to score and their coach does not help. How many alley oops does JS or anyone on the team have in half court this year? None, because Woodson has three offensive plays and has never deviated from them for FOUR years. The same defense and offense. What happened to running the ball? Don’t listen to the nonsense he says in preseaon. We are right back to the same bs that we have been seeing for four years. Happy Holidays to all of the couch potato basketball experts here.

By cp

November 22, 2007 1:50 AM | Link to this

Good win tonight. I wonder how long will it take Riley to come up with some sickness or injury so he can go wait it out till the Heat start playing better so he can magically return to coach them again.. Someone has to sit Marvin down and tell him to be more aggressive. Ive been talking about this for the last few weeks now.. Run some plays for the kid or something. He should easily be averaging around 20 points a game this year. As much as we critque Josh Smith you really cant deny that he makes big plays. He does tend to shoot the 3 too much and turns the ball over but the block he had tonight is the reason why you love the kid. He makes big plays even after a lot of bad ones… Good win hopefully everyone here has a good turkey day.

By Ramon

November 22, 2007 2:03 AM | Link to this

Does every one hear remember the comments PAT RILEY made about why the Heat didn’t get the ‘HAWKS’ when opening up after a title run??? I wonder if Woodson even TRIED to motivate the team with that comment tonight.

By Malone

November 22, 2007 2:43 AM | Link to this

What would Rick Carlisle do with this talent?

By hawks-4-life

November 22, 2007 5:49 AM | Link to this

REESE regarding JS i just think the guy is so dam immature. He need to learn to make the right play not the highlight play. There is no denying his talents but he tend to be over-confident and dont play to his talents e.g. shooting 3’s. Of course he is our best shotblocker but not our best defender. There is a big difference. Anyway let’s savor this win, at least the turkey didnt lose all its flavor this thanksgiving.

By doc

November 22, 2007 7:09 AM | Link to this

yeah ramon karma came back to haunt riles on that one after his disdain he showed the boys of the hawks. wondered that myself and smiled a bit if that was so. feel it is more that the heat are a very old and tired team, one that is over the hill and past its prime. geez, except for dwayne it was old in its time. wade is going to have to step it up a huge notch if this team is to come back to the playoffs.

By roan st

November 22, 2007 8:48 AM | Link to this

Reese, some here including myself mention josh smith in trade proposals not because we don’t think he is a good player but just the opposite. We think he will bring the most back in return because of his unique skill set. In short, he is the most valuable trade piece we have except for maybe jj. I think you interpret it as some on here suggesting that Marvin is the better player but that is just not the case.

I would be more happy with smoove if he would be more careful on offense and understand his limitations. I wish he would make a commitment to stay near the basket to get his offense going. Of course if we had a better coach to help him develop his game that probably wouldn’t hurt either.

By ray

November 22, 2007 9:46 AM | Link to this

Wow did we ever steal THAT one from Miami. They are playing badly, and we hung in there long enough, played well in the fourth quarter, and made some plays toward/at the end.

Josh Smith had me about to scream my lungs out with his clanging those jumpshots right toward the very end. Then he goes and takes the one opportunity to redeem himself by absolutely owning DWade on that last play. And for those who questioned the non-call: there was NO call because there was NO FOUL. It was all ball, baby! Hell, I he got up so high and extended so far, I thought he was going to hit his head on the rim! Niiiiiice play.

Good to see Marvin grabbing rebounds. Always nice. He needs to quit passing up some of those shots. He’s a real shooter.

Anybody who thinks JSmoove is the only one capable of making big plays on either end of the floor is truly delusional. JJ didn’t shoot well last night, but he damn sure hit some clutch shots, including two 3s (one that was a stand-up shot from DEEP) in the fourth quarter. Other good plays from other players aside, JJ is who made it possible to make those other game-savers later on, simply because he put his team ahead. Oh, and he defended well. Good defense doesn’t necessarily mean a steal or block. It means keeping the other player from doing what he wants to do. JJ stepped up in big ways last night. His play was inspiring. The whole team stepped up, pretty much.

How about Horford? Young fella still managed to grab 8 boards despite having to play against Shaq, Mourning, and Haslem. And in spite of some inevitable foul trouble, and reduced minutes. What a freakin’ stud. Still shooting over 50 percent, too! That’s our PF of the future, just chalk it up.

Roan St, forget it man. Trust me, you may as well be talking to a wall. Only the wall would actually listen to what you’re saying, and at least understand your intention and context. I didn’t say “agree”, I said “listen and understand.” Gotta be definitively specific, ya know…

By kwooden1

November 22, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

I agree with Malone, the Hawks should have hired Rick Carlisle over the summer. Lets hope Woodson can dramatically change over the next two days or get changed.

GO HAWKS!

By smartguy

November 22, 2007 10:29 AM | Link to this

Ramon, Woody ain’t that smart; it took three quarters for us to get goin. And as much as I dislike Woody, I’m not sure Rick C would be a good coach for this team. Anyway, why don’t they just do ahead and fire the guy so we can then argur about who his replacement is.

kwooden, I have been hoping for three years that Woody would dramatically change. It just ain’t gonna happen.

By Ramon

November 22, 2007 1:19 PM | Link to this

Rick C wouldn’t even take this job. And also for a team with the athletic length, Carlisle is more of a traditional coach who would pull his hair out with this roster. Not to mention I really, don’t like his style of coaching to begin with. In his last few gigs, the offense wasn’t too much more diverse than what Woody runs now. He never really ran sets or anything just depended on one on one play from superstars.

By Ramon

November 22, 2007 1:41 PM | Link to this

I honestly think if they could give a good offer, going after someone like Michael Cooper wouldn’t be a bad idea. Or possibly even trying their best to go after Bill Lambeer.

Even though their experience as head coach was in WNBA, they both rely on offensive SETS. Actually, the WNBA as a whole rely more on motion offenses and back door cutting than the NBA.

And more so than Woody, I think their presence alone would DEMAND the player’s respect. Everyone in here, has worked for someone who was CLUELESS and ALL of us should know how hard it was to respect that ‘boss’.

By the way, for everyone who says Smooth shouldn’t always go for the ‘spectacular play’, that truly lets a few of us know you were truly an athlete. Because EVERY athlete who was truly gifted ALWAYS looked at the spectacular play as just another play. Its just the vision is different, because thats ALL they know many times. Sometimes it hurts because the other teammates don’t see what you see until they get used to play with you. However if you noticed, Horford, Law, Smooth, and JJ many times seem to be on the same page, even in transition. Its Childress and Marvin who struggle with adjusting (not to mention the obvious AJ and Lue, but thats a dead horse).

One thing we can all see about Smooth is he’s not a ballhog, if the assist is there and the teammate is open for the shot he does make the past. We all talk about the game and sometimes he make mistakes (and even I wish he would penetrate a little more). However, has anyone wondered that maybe he makes these plays routinely in practice. Maybe the passes and shots he is taking goes good in practice, and right now he’s still adjusting his new skills with game speed. If it wasn’t for two late threes last night, JJ and Smooth would’ve had almost identical shooting percentages.

Atleast the Hawks aren’t the WORST birds in the city. LOL

Anyway Happy Thanksgiving, and yada yada yada… lol

By Steve T

November 22, 2007 11:41 PM | Link to this

I would like to see the Hawks make a trade for Eddy Curry. I recall him being a beast on the inside. This will help the hawks more than anything.

Let take a look at Boston with a great inside/outside game. The only thing I dislike about the Hawks is they rely on the jump shot. The hawks have had leads on teams but the jump shot goes south for a quarter. This allows the other team to catch up. But if they had a guy like Curry that can score in the low points it may help them win a few more games.

By hawks-4-life

November 23, 2007 2:45 AM | Link to this

STEVIE T why trade for a starting big man that cant even average 6 rebounds a game and dont present a dominant force on the defensive end. A who do you think is expendable for that bum.

By Steve T

November 23, 2007 9:06 AM | Link to this

All I know is we need to find someone that can score on the inside. Whether that be a big man or a PG that can drive to the basket like Tony Parker.

By MsDee

November 23, 2007 9:38 AM | Link to this

Someone needs to just tell Josh Smith to follow his strenghs in a game. If his shots are not falling for him, then pass, block, defend,rebound, box out..Don’t try and make shots at the wrong time if YOU know u havent thrown a penny in the ocean all game. That’s playing smart!! Josh Smith blocks is one of his biggest strenghs. That’s why I wasnt all surprised that he blocked Wade. That’s common to me. But what WOULD be surprising to me with Josh is if he can decide when to shoot the long jumper, when to drive the ball, and when to pass the ball all at the RIGHT APPROPRATE TIME of the ball game! NOW THAT WOULD BE SURPRISING TO ME!!!

By Tap Daddy

November 23, 2007 9:47 AM | Link to this

I say stay away from Eddy Curry.That guy is one dimensional…other than scoring he doesnt rebound, doesnt defend..we need a guy like Marcus Camby, someone to protect the basket or even Samuel Dalmebert…he’s not a scorer but interior presence would help……..

By The Flash

November 23, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Holiday Suggestion for Smooth For youz who don’t remember my previous breakdown of Smooth’s shot, I see him as starting with his feet and everything else pointing right of the target, and him looking at the target using only his left eye with his left should both rotated right and forward of the right.

Most of us have our shooting shoulders forward of the nonshooting shoulders but in Smooth it is more pronounced. What is a killer, however, is the rotation, and the direction of the feet, but, if I had to chose one, it’s the rotation of the shoulder.

The reason, the rotation of the shoulder puts throw into the shot, that is, it puts the use of torque and the real deltoid muscle into the shot. Good shooters, I believe all of them, have a relaxed shooting shoulder, that does little work and then only works in response to the energy transported from the groud up. Smooth ends up with a slight twisting motion and throwing motion. The twisting motion requires a compensation to get direction correct.

The twisting and throwing motion play havoc with distance control. Make it incredibly unreliable. Makes shooting the ball repeatably terribly problematic.

And, of course, the shooting with one eye can make depth perception more problematic, but that can with practice be less of a problem. The one eye business leads to a lot of bad concepts (the eyes help organize the body, in particular the back muscles, including the deltoids, which in Smooth’s case I believe are overstimulated and his left overworked.

So, my suggestion for Smooth is to experiment some with shooting some very short three feet shots, first banks from layup poition, and then moving round the rim.

1. Take some shots with the right foot slightly foreward of the left. That will make it impossible to start with the left shoulder forward, at least without really, really trying.

My guess, this stance on little short shots will produce a much softer, less steered and controled release and shot. The ball will feel to Smooth like even from 3 feet it will not make it to the basket. This will be good. No, actually, this will be beyond good.

Smooth then might experiment as he is shooting these little shots with the feet reversed (right foot slightly foreward of the left) with the height of the arch, and even with the placement of the thumb on the ball, closer and further from the other fingers. This foot alignment will require a softened shoulder and also a softened and relaxed sternum and rib cage. It will take rotation “throwing” out of anyone’s shot.

Those qualities of softness can always be cultivated, and cultivated again in all of us. Not a bad thing to incorporate into the shots that you take when you you got next and are warming up, especially if you are a weekend warrier and don’t get to shoot as much as you used to.

Second, we go completely in the opposite direction, but again in a way that takes rotation, throwing, and the use of the shoulder completely out of play.

Again with only short shots. This time I suggest that Smooth start on the left side of the rim, the spot where most lefties would be most comfortable shooting a layup.

Smooth will eye the part of the backboard a layup should be aimed at and put his body at a right angle to it (which is different than being at a right angle to the plane of the backboard), with the outside of his left shoulder pointing to his target so that if the ball flew out of that side to the spot on the backboard it would rebound into the basket.

What will be most balanced in the feet, and most useful for this purpose, is to have the feet very lose to one another, with the left ever so lightly foreward of the right (the big toe of the right foot being roughly in the instep of the left foot and an inch or two to the side.

Then, standing straight up, with a fair amount of rigidity, Smooth will want to point his left elbow dead at the target. To do that the chest and shoulder must be relaxed. The left forarm makes a right angle with the elbow, with the left hand about 4-6 inches above the head. the right heand steadies the ball from the side/rear.

The shot is most all in the release. The trigger for the release is a push into the ground with the calves, coming onto the toes, pausing in balance, and then a reasonably stiff fingered release with the thumb and next to fingers of the left hand doing all the work. This pronation will leave the last two fingers where they were to begin with.

The ball will go dead-a$% directly where Smooth aimed aimed.

BTW, let me step back a bit on this. Let me describe how the shot is initiated. You stand as if you had been on the baseline say ten feet from the basket on the left side. As a lefty, your right foot would have been your pivot foot. You make believe that you did a crossover step, with your left foot, and that as the left foot was firmly planted in the ground you were bringing your momentum to a stop on that foot while reaching down with your right hand to scoop the ball immediately after delivering it to the ground with the same right hand which therefore will already be near that position.

The back, left foot then, stabs into the ground next to the right, and like a pole vault pole, starts to bring your body to a rigid upright position. As your body comes upright, you can image your left should be square to the middle of the defender’s chest; your right hand which has scoope the ball is bring the ball up to shooting position along the outside of your right side. It meets the left hand as the left hand reaches shooting position and drops the ball in, hanging around for support.

It is impossible to get the ball into shooting position with this orientation unless the left shoulder muscles are completely relaxed.

The pause at the top when your toes are extended, or, when in real time motion, they create very quick elevation, is like a car coming to a quick stop and you forget that you had a basketball sitting on the shelf in front of the rear window, in which case you would want to duck.

This is much more than a drill. This is money for a penetrate and shoot game. It takes some practice to get the timing down so you can catch on the one step and bring the ball up to shooting.

The shot itself is dead a* acurate; you are stopping on the off beat in a way that is so quick that it is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for the defender to match, the ball is brought to delivery position on an entirely protected path, and the next time you find a defender who can extend either of his arms directly over his head in time to contest will probably be a first.

Shooting in this manner will not only take the shoulder completely out of the shot (which we all can use, but Smooth, if my perceptions are correct, can really, really use) but also create the opportunity to learn ever and ever more about the type of work slight differences in the release are capable of.

Tremendously, tremendously repeatable. It still uses a push into the earth as

By Tap Daddy

November 23, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Flash, that sounds like things he should of been working on in the offseason…it’s hard to change your shooting style during the regular season…not enough individual practice time, more team orientated stuff..so until next season I think we need Woody to get Josh Smith to play 15 feet and in…or work that mid range area like Carmelo does….

By The Flash

November 23, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

There are numerous typos in the above and more than a few misstakes in transposition (I am a righty). The most significant, as I reread this, is in a paragrapth near the end which begins, “The back left foot …” The back foot is actually the right foot.

If anybody thinks that they understand what I have written, you did better than me. Anyway, I really think that the stuff I tried to describe might help improve Smooth’s concepts about how to organize himself in shooting which I believe will improve his results.

What can I say, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

By The Flash

November 23, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

Tap Daddy You might want to try fooling around with these two things for like a half hour/hour total.

Once you do, you will either pick up some useful insights or not. If you do, they stay with you.

This isn’t at all about lots and lots of repetition. Not at all. I would suggest doing more than one rep because it is about exploration, and discovering what small differences can make, and discovering when it becomes easier and easier to produce repeatable results, or not.

Then it is fine to leave it. You can use it in taking a few shots in warm up in these manners as it suits you.

Ditto for Smooth.

The only guy I ever knew who shot regularly with his wrong foot foreward was a high school teammate of mine. A good, good friend of Herb Brown’s, by the way. Having seen Brent shoot for three years that way, I would suggest it to no one as a regular diet. I am sure Herb would agree!!

By reese

November 23, 2007 12:07 PM | Link to this

MsDee, no disrepect, but from a scorers mentallity every shot is a good shot. A lot of scorers practice shooting from everywhere on the court. Therefore, they have a confident feeling that they can take that shot in the game.

Once your confidence in shooting with your natural shooting arm, you do like flash says and practice shooting from short distance, but now you do it with your other arm and start moving further out as you build consistency/confidence. At least, thats how it was with me.

Basically, what I’m saying is that my idea of a good shot may not agree with yours and I’m sure thats the way Josh feels.

Flash, it sounds like your auditioning for Josh Smith’s shooting coach position.

And who ever said and agreed that maybe we don’t need shot blocking from the smalll forward position grossly underestimates the importance of shot blocking, shot altering and making an offensive player think twice about the arc at which he needs to place on their shot.

I’m glad that you never coached players like Michael Cooper, Dr J, Bobby Jones or Jamaal Wilkes. Each of these small forwards have blocked a shot in this 1983 championship game on NBA TV’s greatest games. Also, I’m sure that Tayshaun Prince, Andre Kirilenko, shawn Marion and Danny Granger would laugh at a statement like that.

I’ll say it one more time. I understand that Josh Smith could potentially be the best we have to offer for a trade package. I understand that we need to balance out this team. The problem with a lot of us regulars like Ray, HB Ando, Doc, Flash, Astro Joe, Mykhalc, A Thinking Fan, Clyde, Samuel and others is that we have different ways in which we want to get it done.

I would not give up my best when I can fulfill my needs of a center/pg in other ways. We’ve been there adn done that with BK at the helm.

Plus, the enjoyment that I get out of watching Josh Smith’s intensity and contributions in many facets of the game, far out way the mistakes he makes in games.

Why, because I grew up watching Dr J make just as many mistakes and make up for them in other ways. However, a championship was not won by the great dr until they brought Moses Malone, Maurice Cheeks, Andrew Toney, Bobby Jones and others as a compliment.

I’m not saying that Josh Smith is the next Dr J, I’m saying that I like the way he plays and that we need to get him the proper compliments.

By The Flash

November 23, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

reese it does sound that way, doesn’t it.

However, I am not a believer in shooting coaches.

That said, I do have some perspectives on shooting that I believe are useful to anyone. The ones I just shared with you guys, and in my previous post on Smooth’s shooting style, I find particularly valuable.

If someone can improve his own concepts through a structured exploration of how parts of the body seemingly remote from accomplishing the task at hand can influence the parts most immediately involved in the task at hand, self learning has taken place. Suggesting how a learning environment might be created is not the same as coaching. Once the suggestion is made, the suggestor is superfluous. There is no “job” to create.

Shooting “coaches”, imo, to the extent they try to “teach” shooting mechanics might produce short-term progess, but stultify real self learning which, when it comes to sports, is the only kind there is.

By terrell barron

November 23, 2007 1:38 PM | Link to this

Hire Mark Jackson. The next great, young coach. He knows how to run an offense, unlike you know who. 4 years and still the same thing.

By The Flash

November 23, 2007 1:51 PM | Link to this

terrell barron I like that choice. I like even better Mark’s childhood buddy, Kenny Smith. I think, however, that the only realistic option this year is Drew.

By robdawg06

November 23, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

I think the Hawks need a new coach. We hear the same thing every year after drafting two more top rookies, “This will be the year we make the playoff push”. And every year its a lop-sided won-loss record and staying every team’s whipping biotch that’s in the league… Josh Childress should be a bench player, 6th man. I watched some of the Heat game and it was turnover city ! The non-drafting of Chris Paul will always p** me off. Especially every time he’s named an all-star ! How can the Braves franchise be so good and the Hawks and Falcons franchises be so damn bad ? Its disgusting to even watch ! Let Domonique Wilkins be the coach. He’s a former star that knows how to win.

By Tap Daddy

November 23, 2007 2:47 PM | Link to this

uhhh?? Chris Paul has yet to make an allstar game…Josh Childress has yet to start a game this whole season (so yes he already is a bench player) and I dont remember ever seeing Nique with any trophies other than the slam dunk trophy…LOL…i’m messing with you but I feel ya….I also get frustrated watching and also think Woodson needs to go….

By robdawg06

November 23, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this

Paul was ROY and I thought he was an All-star last year ? Nique went to the playoffs a couple of years with Spudd Webb,Moses Malone,etc. The Hawks haven’t been good since they let Nique go to Boston. I’m not up on Hawks basketball like you are but I know that 4 years of top draft picking and free agency moves have been wasted.

By robdawg06

November 23, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this

Nique’s years were the dominance of the Bulls and Pistons so the playoffs were about the best we could hope for. Now the dominance is in the West and the East is wide open minus the Celtics. No excuses this year. Make the playoffs of get a new coach. Hopefully get a new coach if they go on a huge losing streak, wait though… Maybe they are already in that huge losing streak ???

By ray

November 23, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this

“Shot-blocking is not needed from the small forward position”. Well, it’s easy to pick that statment apart when you’re steadfastly ignoring the thoughts and words surrounding it. When you set aside the real point that is being made. ‘Cause we all know that first sentence is NOT what the discussion is about.

It’s not that shot-blocking isn’t needed at all from the sf position. It’s that it’s needed even MORE from the center position. To be more specific (lest we misunderstand) defense as a whole is needed more in the paint at the center position. You can get away with having less at the sf position, and more at the center than you can with having almost all at the sf position, and almost none at the center position. Ironically, ours is the latter situation.

A list of SFs who block shots is great. Until you match it to this list: Tim Duncan, Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed, Alonzo Mourning, Hakeem Olajuwon, Moses Malone, Emeka Okafor, Yao Ming, Dwight Howard, shall I keep going? Not to mention with the lone exception of Kirilenko, the other SFs have good post defenders behind them. Granger has O’Neal. Prince has Wallace. Marion has Stoudamire. The point is that depending and relying on your SF to provide your primary (and almost all) of your interior defense is not going to work.

The reason why Kirilenko is an exception? Because his team plays good enough team defense. And, they outperform opponents in every single category except blocks, where the margin is only 1. He can have all the stats he wants. They don’t tell the whole story. If not for the beefy post play and added rebounding provided by Boozer and Milsap, or the perimeter defense of Brewer and Williams, or Okur’s ability to shoot from the outside (drawing his man away from the basket)what do you suppose would happen? I’ll tell you: exactly what is happening in Atlanta right now: constant penetration and one guy with great defensive stats.

By Ramon

November 23, 2007 3:28 PM | Link to this

Nique went to Boston? For the record, the Hawks were pretty good with Mookie, Steve Smith, and Mutombo. But that was just in the “Jordan Era” so it was overlooked. THAT team would KILL this team in ever aspect of basketball.

I love the idea of Mark Jackson as a coach.

By ray

November 23, 2007 3:43 PM | Link to this

I would certainly agree that with Knight at the helm, getting any of our “stars” any help has gone terribly wrong in free agency and trade. But does that take away from the idea of what needs to be done?

I have yet to see what other ways there are to fulfill our needs. We won’t get a draft pick (that will help, anyway), so that idea is gone. Last time we dipped into free agency we got Lorenzen Wright. Something tells me that no one worth the bother will come here of their own free will. So, since trading away one of our forward is such an evil idea, I’d be interested in what “other ways” we can get this done.

So building the team around one of our SFs is the way to go. I guess we better get rid of a “second tier” player like Joe Johnson then, huh. Oh wait, he did play in the Olympics and made the all-star team last year. Hmmm. Maybe that was both a fluke and a mistake. He’s not really that good, is he? Certainly not quite the excitement creator we need, eh? Of course, it might be hard to unload a guy with a 70 million dollar contract who averages 22.5ppg, 5.8apg, and 4.4rpg with about a steal a game. Good thing he’s not the best player on the team, or we’d really be throwing a lot away. Wonder what we can get for him and anybody else we could throw in?

By ray

November 23, 2007 3:56 PM | Link to this

Flash, I don’t know if you got a head start on the eggnog or not, but that was some pretty good stuff.

I figure if Josh works on his jumper a lot more, and less on his “post” plays, he’ll average 20 a game easily. Probably more. His defense is top notch at his position. Can you imagine him with a jumper? Dude already knows how to go to the hole…and finish. And hit his free throws. He can make post play another facet of his game to be worked on later.

I think he really should work on the jump shot NOW. Look what it did for Gerald Wallace! Wallace has always been able to run, jump, dunk, steal, and block shots. He lacked the ability to hit the simple midrange or even long range shot for a while. NOW he’s much more deadly, because he can do it. Josh is somewhat designed the same way: a slasher. But a slasher with a jump shot is one of the most devastating offensive players in the game. Because once you as a defender KNOW you have to respect the guy’s shot, you play up closer. He then blows by you and goes in for the score, and often the “and 1.” You gotta love it. I say this now, and have said it a good while back: Josh with a jumper will make you forget about Marvin.

Smith adds the jumper, and you now have someone who is either a player worth building around or a great complimentary/supplementary piece worth keeping. Until then, you’re better off building around someone else.

By Tap Daddy

November 23, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

Ray, “Josh with a jumper will make you forget about Marvin”….i agree with that statement but I just dont see him EVER developing a great jumper…yeah he’s young in age, but isnt this like his 3rd or fourth year in the league?? why not develop a consistent 15 to 18 foot jump shot and then extend your range out to 3 point land once you master that..shoot, Michael Jordan made a killing working that area..same with Kobe and same with Carmelo..Josh Smith’s name shouldnt be brought in in comparison with those guys but my point is to many guys nowadays see that 3 point line and think that’s a good shot…It is for certain people, but not all….and Josh Smith is someone who it’s not a good shot for….like I said if he was missing 18 to 15 footers i would be okay with that but he needs to just leave those dang 3’s alone because theres no way in the world a 6’9 guy with as much athleticism as Josh should be having 4 for 17 shooting nights….get to the hole….with his size and finishing ability he should think attack the rim, but he continues to settle for long jump shots….

By Ramon

November 23, 2007 4:58 PM | Link to this

Tap, what are you talking about? Last game Smooth only shot two three pointers the entire night. And if it wasn’t for the two late 3s by JJ, Joe would’ve been 1 for 5 from downtown. If your touch is off a game sometimes its off. Smooth was missing hook shots and 7 footers that night. It was just a bad night. Yet, Smooth still was aggressive enough to shoot 12 free throws. Matter of fact, one of the threes he shot was at the end of a quarter if I recall. So he has made that adjustment. Some nights he will be off, just like Joe was. In the fourth quarter, BOTH of them stepped up, Joe with the threes, and Smooth with the free throws.

You can’t judge ANY player just off of one or two weeks. Smooth is doing good this season, but the shot isn’t falling. And if you notice, more and more he’s beginning to learn to try and move in more when his shot isn’t falling. Also, please remember Shaq had 7 blocks that game, and Zo had a few his own self. I’m confident this will be his best season yet.

There are only THREE players on this entire roster who can CREATE. Joe, Law, and Smooth are the only ones. Thats the difference between Smooth, Chills, and Marvin. Marvin can shoot as good as any 3 (reminds me of Jamison), but Marvin isn’t great at creating his own shot yet. So with Law hurt, and with out a TRUE offensive scheme, Marvin, Lue, and Chills (along with Horford) have to rely on Joe and Smooth creating something. Because if you haven’t noticed, Marvin is NOT good moving without the ball. Instead he’s more of a Glen Rice in the triangle, instead of a Reggie Miller off of picks (although they need to incorporate those in the sets).

By Tap Daddy

November 23, 2007 5:26 PM | Link to this

Ramon, I’m not going off of one game and if that trend continues of staying away from the 3’s and long jumpers i’m all for it…I just think he’ll be alot more successful if he attacked more, that’s all…and I got to disagree with Smooth being this creator you think he is….he leads the team at 3.4 turnovers a game…were in trouble if were counting on him to be a creator. Here’s a quote from one of the vets on the team Anthony Johnson from the AJC:

“Honestly, I don’t think everybody on this team knows their role,” Johnson said. “I think it hurts us as a team because you have guys out there, no matter how good their intentions, trying to do things they have no business doing. But when we play our roles and execute, we’re fine.”

In the same article John Smith says ” We have to play together and stop trying to save the world on every possession and just buckle down and focus. That goes especially for me….”

I’m pretty sure AJ’s comments were directed towards him and by his comments i’m sure Woodson has told him to play his role and that he isnt one of the primary creators…

I mean the bottom line is the stats dont lie..he’s shooting .378 from the field and .143 from 3 point land…obviously thats not getting it done from your starting 4 man…maybe you see something I dont but the stats dont lie

By roan st

November 23, 2007 5:43 PM | Link to this

Ray, well said explaining the defensive impact a center has versus a small forward. Josh Smith is probably the greatest shot blocking small forward of all time. But the point is we still suck at interior defense and that can only be fixed by a center. Plus he is not really a great on the ball defender like a bruce bowen. So in reality his overall impact is not as great as some think but they are dazzled by the occasional spectacular block.

Ramon, josh smith had a 3-16 game right before going 4-17 in Miami. So can we really just dismiss it as “sometimes your touch is just off”. Dude is shooting 36%( and falling fast) from the field and his poor shooting performences are becoming an ugly trend rather than an “off night”. Josh is a good player but his game needs to be cleaned up. Woody needs to bench him for about a half if he shoots another three pointer. If a guy can’t even make 7-10 footers consistently how in the world can he think he is a three point specialist. Josh must show better discipline in his offensive game and stick to his strengths.

By randy

November 23, 2007 7:48 PM | Link to this

I think Josh feels compelled to take the three when he is open beyond the arc. What he must understand is there is a reason he is left wide open beyond the arc, cuz he can’t shoot. I support the idea of immediately taking him out if he tries another three. Josh is a great talent but his niche is driving the ball not shooting long jumpers and threes.

Anyone know Acie Law’s timetable? I really think he can help this team out alot when he gets back.

By SalimFan

November 23, 2007 8:26 PM | Link to this

There is no right way to answer this question. In order to play like a team you have to play together for a while. With players shuffling in and out of atlanta like birds migrating during the change of season and woodsen with his horrible lineups it’s going to be a rough couple of months.

With that being said during the offseason the player need to take it upon themelves to play together as much as possible during the offseason as well as fine tuning their individual games. The hawks often fumble passes like they are not in sync with one another. Probably due to them not being familiarr with their teammates ankd knowing where and when they like the ball. Even eye contact chemistry for alley-opps seem off at times.

AND IF THE HAWS MISS ANOTHER OPEN DUNK I MIGHT JUST HAVE A MELTDOWN. WHAT DID YOU CHANCE YOURMIND ABOUT IT AT THE LAST SECOND? YOU CANT MISS EASY POINTS LIKE THAT ESPICALLY UNCONTESTED ONES. WITH THE HAWKS HISTORY OF CLOSE GAMES THEY CANNOT AFFORD TO MISS THOSE.

By reese

November 23, 2007 9:00 PM | Link to this

Ramon, they just don’t get it.

Tap Daddy, you sure did tap around the fact that Josh is the second leading scorer, second leading rebounder, leader in steals, leader in blocks and 3rd in assist. We’ve acknowledged that he needs to improve in shooting percentage. But one doesn’t improve by avoidance.

Tap Daddy, if I was Anthony Johnson, then I would be complaining about roles as well if that would get me more playing time. Anthony Johnson is only shooting .167 percent from the 3pt line. I guess he doesn’t need to be shooting 3pt shots either. By the way, he is still shooting them and just made his first one in the Miami game.

Roan st, its OK to have a shot blocking center, a shot blocking power forward and a shot blocking small forward on the floor at the same time. This is the type of team that I am talking about.

Ray, I get your point but your missing my point. We’ve gone the route of having shot blocking centers and no one else blocking shots or playing help defense. Remember Tree Rollins, Dikembe Mutombo and Theo Ratliff. Ratliff frequently had a look of discuss on his face when no one would play help defense.

So do we need a shot blocking Center, yes. But wouldn’t he look good playing next to horford and josh smith who are also capable of blocking shots. Add in a point guard who can push the pace and finish at the rim. Again, there I go back to my memories of older sixers and lakers of the early to mid 80’s.

By Professor

November 23, 2007 10:22 PM | Link to this

Reese, I agree it would be nice to have all three. The problem lies in the fact that we would have to pay JS alot of money to keep him. I’m sure at the end of the year when he becomes a restricted free agent that another team is going to offer him a big contract, which we would have to match to keep him. With the conflict the ownership is having, I just don’t see that happening. I have a feeling that Horford will be replacing JS at the 4 and we will be signing a legit center with the money we would have been paying JS. I don’t think we have the money to do much more. Also if they did trade JS, there might be the opportunity to unload Speedy’s contract in the trade, freeing up even more money.

By Steve T

November 23, 2007 10:41 PM | Link to this

Tap daddy, I will take Curry because he can score in the low post. The hawks have been losing some game by less than 7. Now if we had Curry, he may be able to help us win because when we have the lead, we can work the ball inside. Teams will have to double him. If that happens, he can kick the ball out to Marvin, AC, or JJ for a jumper. Teams will not be bale to double JJ.

I have looked at his stats and he is shooting 60% from the field. He is averaging 18.5 points a game. Now we will have Josh Smith/Al to guard the paint. Curry would be nice to have on this team.

By MyWoody

November 23, 2007 10:58 PM | Link to this

We just haven’t been able to get those guys on the floor long enough to develop the chemistry we need. (Boy, I sure hope you guys are buying this B.S.) Can someone tell Mr. Gearon that I need an extension? We won the last game, what more do you want?

By mykhalc

November 23, 2007 11:04 PM | Link to this

BIG RAY, tasty 3:27pm post!! well said bro!!!

By reese

November 24, 2007 12:01 AM | Link to this

Professor, let me school you. We have approximately 10.6 million of player (Tlue, wright, AJ,Salim, Mario) salary comming off the books. We have 9.9 million in player (speedy, shelden, solomon) salary that can be used for trades. We have 5.9 million in expiring rookie salary (JS, JC).

That leaves JJ, MW, Zaza, AH and AL under contract.

Hopefully, BK can figure out how to use approximately 26.4 million (not counting the increase in the salary cap) to sign Josh Smith and acquire the other pieces we need. Now, if you need any additional help in understanding why I feel we can still sign Josh Smith and others let me know.

By Tap Daddy

November 24, 2007 3:35 AM | Link to this

MR REESE, I’m not dancing around his shot blocking ability, or his rebounding ability.he’s a great athlete and those are areas he excels at..but trying to give him props for being second in scoring on the team and 3rd in assist when he is shooting a horrible percentage and leads the team in turnovers is ridiculous, we cant win like that….as stated by Roan St, 3 for 16 and 4 for 17 in back to back games cant be dismissed as just his touch is off..maybe i’m crazy but I just think thats way to many shots for him. i just think most of his shots should come in transition… and in the half court offense he should be the “recipient” not one of the “creators”.he needs to learn to work that baseline area like JChills, he would make a killing in that area, catch it one dribble and get to the rim….and dont think i’m hating on him just to hate, I think he has alot of “potential” however that word “potential” as coaches and GM’s know, gets you fired…sooner or later you have to start living up to that potential and put it all together on the floor…REESE, just think back over the past few years since Josh Smith has been a Hawk…most of his big games, i mean games he truly impacted, had absolutely nothing to do with his offensive input but the other areas you mentioned he brings to the table (shot blocking defense and hustle plays)…..and like i mentioned in something i wrote earlier, it’s hard for me to point the finger at J Smoove, he’s young and he’s trying to help the team win…but I blame Woodson for not putting J Smoove in positions on the floor to be successful..Why run plays that end up leaving him drifting out on the perimeter when you know that’s not one of his strengh. Why keep running isolations for him with the shot clock running down when he leads the team in turnovers? See, i like the fact J Smoove has the desire to want to be a focal point on offense and that he isnt scared to take the big shots but I just dont think its smart to think he can be successful at that kind of role at this point in his career.

By A Thinking Fan

November 24, 2007 9:29 AM | Link to this

Doc I see Phx finally replace JJ with GH and they are off to their best start. Everybody but the Hawks can bring in quality Vets to shore-up their roster…

By A Thinking Fan

November 24, 2007 9:35 AM | Link to this

Josh Smith will mirror KG career wise. It will take him about that long as well to get it! Tremendous athletic talent, but needed to mature with a couple of years in college ball…

By doc

November 24, 2007 9:50 AM | Link to this

atf, been checking that action out as well. grant does so many things as well as contributing to ball movement as he gets his share of assists. it has also diminished diaw’s role a bit, no maybe a huge bit.

still no big as the last two that got away are not dong to badly where they are. still got the coach and the master to do well enough, just maybe not to get by the spurs again who shoot as well, are as quick and have a legit big or two.

By terrell barron

November 24, 2007 11:46 AM | Link to this

And just think, Smoove could be a college senior. WOW

By I.MUS WRITE

November 24, 2007 12:37 PM | Link to this

I read over the summer where JS said -“we will be a playoff team if guys come in work hard,and know there roles” Josh this is MUS talking to you-follow your own advice. Your role on this team is not handling the ball or long range bombing. Im not gonna bash josh for being inconsistent on his shot or the turnovers. After 4 yrs of nba ball he looks the same -scoring near the rim and blocking shots with no jumper to speak of.That doesnt equal a 70 mill contract -sounds more like 5 yrs 40 million. I dont think he is going to get payed here, so why let this guy walk for nothing. Lamarcus Aldridge is who i would target: Offer Josh Smith/Salim/Sheldon for Aldridge

A front court of Marvin,Al and L Aldridge gives you size and scoring in the paint. Gasol or Curry would be nice to have as well-my point in this is dont let Josh walk -because our owners wont match 70-80 mil.FSN sux man why is the game not on TV

By Ramon

November 24, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this

NO BODY on THIS roster short of Horford AND JJ would get you Aldridge. They traded Randolph just to make room for him and Oden. He’s not going anywhere. Theres no way I would EVER, trade Josh Smith for Eddy Curry. Eddy Curry doesn’t play with heart (in no reference to his heart ailment). Curry is just a taller version of Al Harrington. Theres no reason you should be a 7 foot starting center in THIS league and not average at least 9.5 rebounds a game NO REASON.

By the end of this season, you will clearly see why you shouldn’t let Smooth go. Thats even if Marvin doesn’t get hurt. I personally wish they could keep both.

By I.MUS WRITE

November 24, 2007 2:32 PM | Link to this

Yeah I definitely want Marv and Josh on the roster long term-just dont think we are going to be able to pay both…. Portland had Oden,Pryz,Frye and Aldridge thats why they moved Zach also they wanted to go younger with character guys and Zach is a cancer Darius Miles is next, but i wouldnt trade Salim for that dude.

Im sure if we pushed the issue they would take J.SMITH/SHELDON/AJ/SALIM ALDRIDGE/J.JACK OR S BLAKE

By ray

November 24, 2007 3:41 PM | Link to this

Reese, I have no argument with that, which is what I’ve been trying to say. It would indeed be just AWESOME to have a defensive center next to Horford and Smoove. And I don’t blame Josh at all for any of this. It’s clearly Billy Knight’s fault for not constructing things properly…well, we won’t get into that because it is part hindsight and the horse is long gone. In essence, we are beating the grave site of the dead horse with that whole conversation.

The main thing that drives this discussion is how to get that center. Since it can’t be done by draft (thanks to Billy Knight)now, it has to be done by trade. Free agency probably won’t work. The Joshes are due up for some type of action at the end of the season. Our discussion revolves around the question of what will it take to get the center we need, when all we have to work with is the current players we have. That means somebody has to go. We’ve more or less agreed that Smith is the most valuable and most coveted by other teams. However, if Marvin can be packaged in some way (or Childress, but I doubt he has enough value by himself on the open market) with somebody else, then maybe we can accomplish our ends that way.

Believe me, I have not missed your point at all. If it can be done physically and financially, then we keep Smith. Changes have to be made, and soon. That means most likely Smith, Childress, or Marvin goes. Keeping all of them means we keep running the same team over and over, destined for a winning percentage of less than .400. Certainly less than .500.

Trust me, I don’t want to see the guy go. Besides his obvious and unique talent, he wants to be here and is a hometown guy. My point is and has been that this is about the TEAM, not any one player. If trading Josh Smith (which I REPEAT is not a desire of mine) is the ONLY thing that can be done to make the team better, for now and the future, then what choice is there? Did Philly want to let A.I. go? How about Minnesota and K.G.? Or Seattle and Ray Allen (well, they DID have Durant coming in..)? Trust me bro’. I don’t have a desire for it, but better to have the open mind and be prepared then to think the organization is or should be building around a guy, only to have him be shipped away.

As to your salary comments. How many players do you figure on us having under contract? Because, for each one that’s “coming off the books” that’s one we either have to resign, or sign a replacement for. That, and to get something good or something worth having, you have to give up something comparable. Unless we find a team in a really bad financial situation, I could just about guarantee that we will continue to get crap for the crap we offer. Speedy = crapped out, can’t play. TLue, Salim, AJ all play roles. But they’re bit roles and Salim is the best of the bunch when you’re talking future play, the other two are old and would be worth more on a championship contender who needs an extra pg for insurance. Wright = crap, and I still don’t know what happened to him. So we offer crap and we will only get different crap. What’s your solution here? And remember, we are dealing with Billy Knight, and we have no idea what he will or would do, especially “backed” by crappy, broke-a$$ owners. And please don’t tell me “Steven Hunter and Steve Francis.” Hunter would be worth a look, but what do you give for him and is he the center for the future (methinks not). Francis is older, pouty, and can’t crack the rotation behind Luther Head (who’s not even a pg) and “Skip to my Lou” Alston. Not to mention, he won’t be wanting to take a pay cut (which would happen here) and he’d interfere with the development of Law.

By ray

November 24, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

Mykhalc, thanks man. I’m amazed I can write anything with a semblance of cohesive thought when I’m that full of Thanksgiving food.

Roan st, exactly on point. I am sick of the fact that Josh is always having to rescue everybody (I still give a pass to Horford, he’s holding up his end decently) on defense. His talent should be an added effect of playing against the Hawks, not a featured effect. Other teams need to be worried about the Hawks team defense (interior especially) as a whole. Then, they need to be worried about Josh Smith as a free-stalking predator. Instead, they run plays that do one of two things: get Smith in foul trouble, therefore negating his playing time and ability to affect the game…or run plays that force him to come help, thereby leaving good shooters open. The simple fact is this: Smith can block 3.3 shots a game. What about all the shots he doesn’t get to? Who’s blocking or contesting those? Besides Horford (who gets 1.5 of his own while having to guard all of the opposing teams’ bigs), the answer is NOBODY. Josh should be the perfect icing/topping and a key ingredient of the cake. NOT nearly the bulk of the cake’s ingredients.

Tap Daddy, that’s exactly it my friend. If Josh Smith develops that midrange jumper, he is a guy that makes the all-star ballot and game every year for the next decade. Guaranteed. The other thing is this: at some point in his career, he will not be able to do the things that his physical ability enables him to do now. What then? What if the horrific happens and he is never the same superior athlete he is now? One cannot just be a superb athlete with some basketball skills. I would LOVE to see him develop his game in that direction.

Reese, let me tell you something that has long been in my mind. If Josh were to truly work at developing a good jumper, I mean not even a 3 point shot, but just a good form capable of consistency anywhere from 15-18, or even 20 feet, then he is truly the best player on the team. In fact, it then leaves the organization in a situation where it could reasonably trade another highly valuable player in Joe Johnson. Before I get fire and brimstone straight from hell on this one, no this is NOT what I’m pushing for or would even like to see happen. But think about it. We need the reliable offensive firepower. If Smith and Marvin provide that, along with Horford, then we can add any shooting guard to the mix. Easily. Shooting guards and small forwards are available in abundance: through trade, free agency, and draft. We could use a trade to acquire a good center (good now, not crappy or mediocre).

If you want to make this about Smith it’s simple: His development (both IQ and b-ball skills) changes the whole situation for the organization. If he becomes the player he can be THIS season, all bets are off, all options are open and you can reasonably build around him. But he has to work like a dog at it: he has to acquire the consistent jumper and make better decisions offensively overall.

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this

Thats it if we lose this…forget the playoffs…blow the whole team up…im giving up on this season….im starting to seriously hate woodson…..how will u lose to a team with one win….aaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 8:42 PM | Link to this

ONE MORE TIME I REALLY HAAAAAATE THAT IDOIT WOODSON RIGHT NOW

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 8:44 PM | Link to this

DOWN 20 TO A ONE WIN TEAM….PLAYOFF?

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 8:48 PM | Link to this

RIGHT NOW IM IN GERMANY AND ITS 230 IN THE MORNING…I FOLLOW GAMES ONLINE…DO YOU THINK THIS TEAM IS WORTH ME LOSING MY SLEEP….ITS A ONE WIN TEAM….I WAS EXPECTING A NICE RELAX NIGHT….LOSES LIKE THIS MAKE ME HATE THE TEAM…FOR REAL

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 8:49 PM | Link to this

I KNOW I SPELLED IDIOT WRONG EARLIER..LOL

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 8:52 PM | Link to this

PRIDE….CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT THAT IS CAUSE I SURE AS HELL FORGOT….

By mykhalc

November 24, 2007 8:58 PM | Link to this

*hawks-4-life *, may i suggest you choose sleep!!LOL you’ll REALLY be pi$$ed if you stay up for this one and they lose especially ‘cause of WOODSON’s game mgmt!!!

NBALP isn’t even carryin’ the game!!! so choose sleep my brotha!! (and the fraeuleins);o)

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 9:20 PM | Link to this

MAN THE BOBCATS ARE DOING BETTER THAN US….

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this

they almost beat the boston one of the best teams and we are getting blown out by one of the worse

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 9:48 PM | Link to this

345 german time and we are down 11…hawks make it worth it…make me staying up in the morning to support you worth it…

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 9:53 PM | Link to this

350 german time down 4…impressive

By doc

November 24, 2007 9:55 PM | Link to this

here we go again. rally time, geesh what a team.

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 10:02 PM | Link to this

4 oclock tied game

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 10:04 PM | Link to this

4 oclock up 5….please hold the lead

By reese

November 24, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this

Tap Daddy, there is a difference between knowing your limitations and not being afraid to overcome your limitations. Josh Smith is not afraid to overcome his limitations. I no longer give Josh Smith the potential tag. This is his 4th year in the league and now I’m judging him on his performance on the floor.

If just running the baseline is so great, then I would expect Josh Childress to be averaging more points than Josh. Both Joshes play a lot of minutes and therefore, they both can’t be at the same spot on the floor.

Tap Daddy, I don’t know what type of person you were on the basketball court. But if others don’t want to take the shot, I sure didn’t mine. I see Josh Smith doing the same. If others don’t want to be agressive, that didn’t stop me and I see that it doesn’t stop Josh.

Its nice to say that the hawks need to run, but the mindset of the players alongside of Josh is not demonstrating that they want to push the pace. But, that doesn’t mean that josh has to stop pushing the pace.

By the way, didn’t we win the game in which he shot 4 of 17.

By hawks-4-life

November 24, 2007 10:21 PM | Link to this

420 hawks win…im going to bed

By reese

November 24, 2007 10:22 PM | Link to this

Ray, I would rather see steve francis than Anthony Johnson. However, I have to admit that I have not seen him play in awhile. However, Tim Thomas who I liked as a player, sat on the Chicago bench and was considered useless by Scott Skiles because he didn’t play skile’s type of basketball. Tim went to Phoenix and showed that he was still able to play in a situation that was based around his style of play. He has been able to do well on the clippers as well.

My point is just because someone else tells you the player can’t play doesn’t mean that he can’t play in your type of system. Bring him here and let them run. If it doesn’t work out, then all we have done is lose a AJ, shelden williams or lorenzen wright. I can live with that.

Like I’ve said before, its hard to get centers with the 15 man roster. Players like David Harrison, Hilton Armstrong, Josh Boone, Earl Barron, Patrick O’bryant or Randolph Morris can make their low salaries on the respective teams and could have provided some interior defense for the hawks.

MyKhalc, how did the team look tonight.

By doc

November 24, 2007 10:24 PM | Link to this

what do ya know, two in a row, on the road after falling behind by ~20 both games. interesting developments, no?

myk you will be happy to know it seems one of your whippin boys zaza, didnt play a minute.

By Matt

November 24, 2007 10:25 PM | Link to this

I’m lovin’ it! Great win, Hawks!!! I just wish you boys could get your engines started in the first quarter rather than the third, but hey - you take your wins however you can get them.

GO HAWKS!!!

By doc

November 24, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this

well we are now at .500 playing the dregs of the league. if they had held court on the other low lifes this team would be looking at 7 and 5 instead if the inverse. got to hand it to them, sometimes it takes the road to gel and time will tell. giving them 20 games to get it together until then it is what it is and patience is a virtue.

got to laugh at any talk of j smash moving on, seems he had a solid no frills game tonight with even a 3 pointer on only one attempt. he had a positive impact in every category. i still shake my head at any attempt to trade him it almost makes me want to laugh at such nonsense. there is no player in this franchise since dominique with his qualities and there is not going to be anyone to give us fair trade value. the only thing that can let him go is if the owners dont have the money to pay him.

By doc

November 24, 2007 10:47 PM | Link to this

well we are now at .500 playing the dregs of the league. if they had held court on the other low lifes this team would be looking at 7 and 5 instead if the inverse. got to hand it to them, sometimes it takes the road to gel and time will tell. giving them 20 games to get it together until then it is what it is and patience is a virtue.

got to laugh at any talk of j smash moving on, seems he had a solid no frills game tonight with even a 3 pointer on only one attempt. he had a positive impact in every category. i still shake my head at any attempt to trade him it almost makes me want to laugh at such nonsense. there is no player in this franchise since dominique with his qualities and there is not going to be anyone to give us fair trade value. the only thing that can let him go is if the owners dont have the money to pay him.

By Professor

November 24, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

Reese, let me school you. We have approximately 10.6 million of player (Tlue, wright, AJ,Salim, Mario) salary comming off the books. Thats 5 players off your roster. We have 9.9 million in player (speedy, shelden, solomon) salary that can be used for trades. Who the hell is gonna trade for those bums without getting something back in return? Don’t worry I’ll wait………………………………..Ok, now that we’ve gotten that out the way. We have 5.9 million in expiring rookie salary (JS, JC), which leaves us only 5 dudes on the squad. It would be very difficult to sign JS to a MAX contract, which is what he is going to want and fill out the roster with an ownership dispute going on. Do you really think the Hawks are going to get rid of all those players to sign JS? Wow. If you guys really think he is THAT good, then do your thing. But I doubt seriously you will have much of a difference as far as a roster goes. Truth is your stuck with your 9.9 mil in salary unless you include a player like JS in a trade, especially if you want a big man. Sure you can get one in the draft in the 2nd round or so, but by the time you develop him it will be time to make a decision on Horford and Law’s contracts. Lol, keep your instruction Reese please. I’d rather stay stupid.

By THE Hawks Fan

November 24, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this

Man Josh has made a complete 360. Yes Josh you can get a 60 million deal playin defense and blocking shots. That 3 was your DEVINE Reward. Keep it up big Fella!! If these guys wanna be comeback kings, so be it. Winning cures ALL! Great WIN!!!!!

By mykhalc

November 24, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this

REESE, i don’t know. they didn’t even show the game on NBALP!!! no respect, none!!!LOL they were down almost 20 in the 3rd and came back for the ‘W’. i’m gonna check the boxscore now.

DOC, i noticed it earlier when i looked at the boxscore. i’m not sure if he got reinjured or what!!??!! but i did predict he would/will be replaced by HORFORD again back in the startin’ 5!! and IF that’s what happened then i ain’ the least bit surprised!!!! he’s a backup and needs to be in his rightful place!!!

By Ramon

November 24, 2007 11:01 PM | Link to this

The MOST impressive stat of the night,, 5 BLOCKS, 3 STEALS, 0 PERSONAL FOULS!!! Playing defense like that without a foul being called on you is remarkable.

By Professor

November 24, 2007 11:03 PM | Link to this

Doc, no one is doubting JS’s ability. He is good. But how long do we wait until we try to make a move to make this team better? As far as I’m concerned, anyone on this roster is tradeble if it means making the team better. Don’t you agree? I agree with you and Reese about Josh being a good player. But I don’t think anyone else would bring anyone here who could make a difference in a trade unless Josh was included. We are not in a great position now. Even if we make the playoffs there is no way this team is set to win a title. We can act like the Braves franchise in baseball and be happy with pennants or we can build to win a championship. Boston had a promising big man in Al Jefferson, but they traded him and a couple of other nice prospects and got some real stars. Look at them now. I envy them and their fans. They were smart enough to know they wanted better. This is a business. You can’t fall in love with a player if the ultimate goal is not being reached. Even in Boston falls on their face, I would respect Ainge for at least trying the best he could. The Hawks will never win with these players.

By Professor

November 24, 2007 11:09 PM | Link to this

Ray, damn good post sir. Thats all I was trying to say. I guess it didn’t come out right. GO HAWKS!!!

By roan st

November 24, 2007 11:18 PM | Link to this

Exactly the kind of game I have been saying josh smith should play. Tonight he focused on defense and took only 9 shots and made 5. Great defensive effort and efficient on offense with 16 points. If only he would play this way every night. We can only hope he doesn’t revert back to those woeful 3-16 and 4-17 performances.

By doc

November 24, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

professor, i will say it again, two facts are the most relevant here. we wont get equal value and number two relates to one. we wont spend the money to get someone of value and that may be why we look the other way when we do a sign and trade and get a low cost non-replacement and a draft choice or two.

there is no one out there that matches his salary of value that we could grab this year in a trade to make this team better right now. simple math. if you want to trade someone then it will have to be joe j. he is the only player of value that has a contract that could be matched for a big. sorry just dont see much in the fantasy of trading josh for a player to make us better because there isnt one out there. when josh plays within the game he takes this team to potential wins. when he becomes j.smooth and wants to be the game then he falters and everyone wants to give him away.

now, if you offer me tim duncan straight up for j. smith then yes, just it just wont happen.

By doc

November 24, 2007 11:29 PM | Link to this

professor, i will say it again, two facts are the most relevant here. we wont get equal value and number two relates to one. we wont spend the money to get someone of value and that may be why we look the other way when we do a sign and trade and get a low cost non-replacement and a draft choice or two.

there is no one out there that matches his salary of value that we could grab this year in a trade to make this team better right now. simple math. if you want to trade someone then it will have to be joe j. he is the only player of value that has a contract that could be matched for a big. sorry just dont see much in the fantasy of trading josh for a player to make us better because there isnt one out there. when josh plays within the game he takes this team to potential wins. when he becomes j.smooth and wants to be the game then he falters and everyone wants to give him away.

now, if you offer me tim duncan straight up for j. smith then yes, just it just wont happen.

By Melvin

November 24, 2007 11:33 PM | Link to this

Recap from NBA.com MINNEAPOLIS, Nov. 24 (AP) — Josh Smith and the Atlanta Hawks have suddenly found a steeliness on the road…Notes: Smith, who also had eight rebounds and five assists, put on a shot-blocking show in the third quarter, emphatically swatting a dunk by Jefferson, a jumper by Marko Jaric and a layup by Corey Brewer… Uh, do you really want to trade a guy like this…

By ray

November 25, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this

Reese, did you see what I said about Smith’s development and how it relates to the team? I even mentioned the idea of trading Joe Johnson (which I think could be equally as crazy). As far as the big men you mentioned: I’d take any one of them over Lorenzen Wright. And you’re right again-I’d rather see Francis instead of AJ too. But at what cost? Stevie won’t come cheap. Now, if we buy out Claxton, and chunk AJ…maybe Lue or Salim (not both, we need at least one) then we may have something going. Billy won’t do it, nevermind…

Professor, thanks. I try, and that’s all I can do. But I’ve had enough of it.

Roan St, that’s what I’m sayin’. If he’ll just get in the gym and work on those jumpers. I’m telling you: 10-time all-star waiting to happen…

Doc, ahhh f*ck it. Never mind…

Man…how did we end up down by 18 in the first place? Don’t get me wrong, I’ll take the win, but somebody had better be scrutinizing the hell out of this one. And another thing. Zaza, Salim, and a couple others didn’t even play. What’s up with that? I see bangin’ against Shaq and ‘Zo took it’s toll on Horford. Apparently he couldn’t handle going at it with Jefferson too well. Can’t blame the guy, either. Smoove had a pretty good game. Marvin was ok, but seems to be fading somewhat. Somehow, I want to blame Woody for this, but don’t know if I can. I know, I know. I’ve got tunnel vision.

By Samuel

November 25, 2007 12:38 AM | Link to this

Doc,

That’s why I suggested JJ for Ben Wallace. I’m like you. What center, outside of Yao, D Howard, Amare, Shaq, Duncan or Camby would you take for Josh. I don’t see it.

I say package JJ for Wallace straight up. We get one of the best post defenders in the league. We move Marvin to #2 and make him shoot the ball more. I think he would if we moved JJ out of his way. We would also have Childress and Salim at 2 guard. When Acie returns, he could provide more offense to make up for the loss of JJ.

Sure, we would lose a lot in JJ but you guys keep crying about our weak post defense and our standing around watching JJ go one-on-one. Furthermore, I still don’t think JJ really wants to be here. He wants to play for a contender. Chicago would instantly become one and we would also fill a weakness.

But you definately don’t trade your best All Around* player. I can see yall two years down the road Hate’N on Ole BK for trading away our All Star for some center who doesn’t pan out.

By doc

November 25, 2007 12:39 AM | Link to this

patience ray, time will tell where this organization is going. josh can play his heart out and do all the right things and it still may be too little to keep him here is the reality i see and anticipate. remember this ownership has done nothing to suggest it can and will pay josh what he might get on the open market. if that be the case then ALL of the comments you have made will be good reasons NOT to keep josh.

By Dave

November 25, 2007 12:41 AM | Link to this

I was at the game tonight since I live in Minneapolis and they looked horrible in the first half. They gave up a ton of offensive rebounds and rarely got set on their own jumpers. In the second 1/2 probably the key to the game was Tyron Lue hitting 3 timely 3’s and Josh Smith’s blocks. I was 5 rows away when he threw Brewer’s shot hard and than when he stoned Al Jefferson at the rim.
The other thing of interest to me that Marvin was really excited on the bench during the comeback even though TLue was on the floor. Being a good team player. Good to chat with you again Sekou.

By reese

November 25, 2007 12:57 AM | Link to this

MyKhalc, thats a shame. They could have at least shown the Minnesota broadcast.

Lets see, Josh led the team tonight in rebounds, steals and blocked shots. He is tied for first in assist and is 2nd in scoring.

Childress and Lue take 13 shots and JJ takes 21 shots. Which ultimately means Josh takes fewer shots. Now, if Marvin can learn the lesson, then the amount of shots that Josh takes is controlled by others shooting and not by telling Josh to reduce his intensity.

Professor, I can teach and its your perogative if you don’t want to learn. Boston has already proven that you can find players to fill out a roster. Besides we’re talking about players 8 through 15. We can keep solomon jones, he is making less than a million.

Josh is making approximately 2.2 million a year. He deserves to be making 10 million a year. This is one Billy Knight got right and we are reaping the rewards at a budget.

I hate talking about next year in relation to acquiring players. However, potential low cost unrestricted free agents that can help the hawks are Stromile Swift, Kwame Brown, Jamaal Magloire, Desagana Diop and Theo Ratliff.

Then, you have the high cost Jermaine Oneill, Gilbert Arenas, Mike Bibby, Allen Iverson and Baron Davis. To acquire one of these players, the Spirit Group had better be prepared to go over the salary cap and keep JJ and JS.

Finally, you have the restricted free agents that would require sign and trade where we would use the players that you call bums. But teams may just want to get something for nothing. David Harrison, Ryan Hollins or Randolph Morris.

My point is that there are always players out there. I didn’t even mention NBDL players, college players or foreign players. Some players will take less if there is not a high demand, if they feel they will get playing time or if they like what the team is trying to do (i.e. signing one of those high cost free agents).

By The Dark Karma

November 25, 2007 1:11 AM | Link to this

Most interesting. Suddenly the favor of the crowd is beginning to turn toward Josh Smith, and away from Joe Johnson. So, the only all-star on the team is now the one to be traded? Most interesting indeed. And one wonders what the return on such a trade would net for the team? While perimeter shooting and scoring as a whole would be affected, to whom would the team turn to for play-making and offense in clutch situations? Josh Smith perhaps, or the rookie Acie Law? Indeed, this responsibility must fall on someone. Surely someone has thought this out already and has a good answer, of which I would be rather curious to hear.

And still yet, others think that a magical solution at center will appear without the Hawks having to give up any of it’s native sons. Ah, naivete.

Ben Wallace is not what he once was, for reasons that are perhaps best unspoken at this point in time, due to lack of proof. Chicago has begun to discover this fact, albeit at the cost of 60 million. And they have lost a lot this season. Wallace never was the answer, but the money is spent. Yet, he would do well here. But would he wish to remain and play with a proper attitude?

One grows tired of hearing the players on this team saying the same thing over and over. They proclaim that they must play well from the start of the game. How many times will this be said before the team understands it? The statements about keeping to the coach’s gameplan are quite telling as well. Woodson is a defensive coach. He continues to state that rebounding and defense are paramount and that all other things will fall into place like clock work. Clearly the statment of a man who is clueless on offense. He must go, or the talents of this team will continue to be wasted.

By reese

November 25, 2007 1:17 AM | Link to this

Ray, I missed your comment at first. I envision us building around jj and Josh. We know what we’ll get out of those to players. I just want to get some more intense players around them.

However, thats my vision and I hope that it can come true.

By new jersey faithful

November 25, 2007 1:28 AM | Link to this

How bout’ that win 2nite!! Back to back road wins, who’d a thunk it? Can they possibly win 3 in a row………

By Steve T

November 25, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

I hope the Hawks learned a lesson. I hope this is something that wake this team up. To comaeback from 21 down is a step in the right direction for the Hawks. In the past, this team would have lost a game such as this.

By Samuel

November 25, 2007 10:28 AM | Link to this

TDK,

Ben Wallace is exactly who we thought he was. I borrowed that from my boy Dennis Green. (I couldn’t resist). He is still probably the best post defender and rebounder among true centers. Can he shoot. No! Could he ever shoot. No. But he can score 10 points a game.

BK is supposed to be a defensive coach, right. A front line of Big Ben, Little Tito, and Josh would be a serious defensive front court. Serious. Horford has proven that he can score so has Josh. The points that you would lose with JJ being gone can be made up on fast break points. Block shots and steals lead to easy buckets.

Our half court offense would definately have to get more creative but remember when JJ was out. It did become just that.

Last summer I mentioned bringing AI here and yall bout had a fit but in all actuality JJ is just a bigger version of AI without the defensive intensity and heart.

If I had my druthers, I would keep both JJ and Josh and build around them. I’m just throwing things out there like everybody else. P** in the wind.

By Samuel

November 25, 2007 10:56 AM | Link to this

Is BK or Woody the coach? My bad.

By terrell baron

November 25, 2007 11:39 AM | Link to this

If Josh is our pf of the future, where does this leave Horford? Is he going to be a career backup pf? I dont think so. One of them will have to go sooner or later, dont you think? SAD BUT TRUE

By terrell barron

November 25, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

Josh Smith is 6th in the NBA in steals. WOW! Sekou, when is Acie going to be ready? Any clue? I recall Joe saying that “Craig” was looking better than ever this summer. What a freakin joke!

By Samuel

November 25, 2007 1:28 PM | Link to this

Anybody got NBA TV. Turn it on. A serious battle going on with the Pistons and Jazz. So many good match ups. Billips vs Williams. AK47 vs Prince. Boozer vs Maxiell. Good game.

By randy

November 25, 2007 2:20 PM | Link to this

JJ for Ben Wallace???? HAHA you guys been smoking the crack! Trade our one offensive weapon for a guy that couldn’t hit the ocean from a boat?? That would be one of the most stupidest trade in NBA history. Please people think before you post, you might give our idiot general manager ideas!

By terrell barron

November 25, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this

You can say that again, Randy.

By A-ville Ranger

November 25, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

I was screaming along with some of you in the off season that the Hawks needed to try to get Jose Calderon from Toronto.Now that Ford is injured the Raptors are seeing what some of us saw before,Calderon can be one of the top 5 pg in the game.He can be a 14 pt 9 ast 50% shooter right now.

By Samuel

November 25, 2007 7:52 PM | Link to this

Most stupidest?

Where has JJ and his 70 mil. gotten this team? A bunch of standing around. He has 19.7 shots per game and shoots 42%. Only Kobe is even close in FG attempts. Plus, shooting is pretty much all you get with JJ.

Wallace will give you post defense, Rebounds, Blocks and “heart”.

Don’t be so infatuated with points. Distribute those 20 shots per game to people who shoot a better percentage and you don’t really lose anything.

Most Stupidest? WOW!

By JerryWest

November 25, 2007 9:06 PM | Link to this

Many Sixers fans think the best deal they could get for Miller is Landlord+expiring fillers.

What do you guys think?

Miller has 2 years left for 10 mil/yr.

By Ken Strickland

November 26, 2007 1:48 AM | Link to this

What’s happening Hawks fans? I hope no one had any personal/family misfortunes over the holidays. I’ve spent the last 5 days in Miami bidding farewell to a terminally ill aunt. So, I haven’t followed the team or the blogs. Sometimes it takes something like that to put things into proper perspective, doesn’t it.

I couldn’t help but notice the number of trade this player and/or that player posts. Why not wait until the allstar break, at least, before trading away our best and most proven players. As far as Ben Wallace is concerned, has he gotten the Bulls over the hump? They were already a good DEF team that needed OFF, especially interior OFF, more than anything else. Adding more DEF hasn’t helped them win more gms.

I’d like to see us add another PG, in the Speedy mold, so we can remain uptempo when Acie’s on the bench. We should also give Solomon Jones more mins at the 5. MJordan’s Bulls won a few titles using a 3 headed 5, and the Spurs have been pretty successful with the same approach. I think we should give our core more time to develop chemistry and/or cohesiveness before considering breaking it up.