Hawks

By JJ

October 5, 2007 3:38 PM | Link to this

I hope he does not wear them out. i don’t want anybody hurt.

By Astro Joe

October 5, 2007 3:46 PM | Link to this

Sekou, I seem to recall how you wanted to see some mashed-up bodies during last year’s camp. And I seem to recall that there was not much there, in terms of guys trying to “kill” each other. Are you sensing more of a killer attitude early in this year’s camp? Are guys competing hard with the right sense of urgency? Thanks for the facts-are-facts updates, not give us your opinion/insight. Is this a hungrier squad than you have seen before? And is it hungry enough for realistic post-season aspirations? And will there be any healthy bodies to view during tomorrow’s open practice?

(I wish I could go but I have too many Daddy things on tap for tomorrow and my sons take priority over my boys).

By swatguy

October 5, 2007 4:18 PM | Link to this

Is there any evidence of Alton Lister’s coaching thus far. Does Solomon look like “double digit” minutes?

By tp

October 5, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

Great Solomon article this morning Sekou.

If he can play like that in the regular season, I could see a second-team lineup of Lue/Law, Stoudamire, Childress, Solomon and Horford kicking some serious butt.

I wish I could be there tomorrow also, but the kiddies take precedence!

By Sekou K. Smith

October 5, 2007 4:21 PM | Link to this

Much more of a killer attitude Joe, for a lack of a better phrase. Guys are competing for jobs and for minutes and for the sake of competing, which is hard to do when you don’t have quality depth. But when you know there’s a chance you might be on the sideline because another guy can help the team win now it makes it harder to coast. I don’t know that there will be any hold outs tomorrow, so for those of you able to attend should prove beneficial (if you really want to size this group up for yourself). But I do see a group with a collective sense of urgency that was perhaps not there a year ago.

By Astro Joe

October 5, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Sekou. Everyone who is going to the open practice, please post your reviews of the players and team when you’re back at your PC. I’m very interested in reading the various perspectives of the practice and the players. Consider yourselves temporary beat writers tomorrow and come with some insight.

By gutz

October 5, 2007 4:59 PM | Link to this

Sekou, do you think based on what you have seen this week that we can make a run at the playoffs? Hollinger from Espn has already picked our Hawks to finish 7th in the east and now a writer for SI.com posted today the Hawks are his surprise team of the year. These are some props in my opinion coming from sports writers across the U.S. considering we have had nothing but criticism the last 5 years. I think this team is ready to take off. Please find me a team in the NBA that is deeper than ours right now? No team in the NBA has better second unit than ours right now. With Law, Salim, Chill, Shelden, Horford as our second unit we should kill teams.

By smartguy

October 5, 2007 5:09 PM | Link to this

Those lineups show just how inept Woody is.

By ray

October 5, 2007 5:16 PM | Link to this

Mykhalc, it’s not that I don’t think Horford can play some 5. I actually haven’t had much chance to see the guy play (summer league was hardly televised) since college. My point is why send the man in to play 5 when he doesn’t have sufficient beef in there WITH him. Much as I like Josh Smith, is he enough beef down low to sufficiently help on defense/rebounding? Or will they once again get pounded inside and worn down just like the Zaza/Josh combo?

I sort of equate it to how it goes down in Phoenix with Amare and Marion. Those guys are great, but notice how they are always trying to get that tough worker down low to help out. Last time it was Kurt Thomas. Now it’s Brian Skinner. There’s a reason for it.

And while I realize Josh Smith is bigger and taller than Marion, you can’t look at both teams on paper and see that we aren’t quite similar from a pure height and weight standpoint. That alone is proof of two things: actual height and weight are not the only or even the primary factors for success(which bodes well for us in some ways). And, that the star in the paint STILL needs help. It’s obvious everywhere you look: Shaq has Udonis Haslem. Tim Duncan has Oberto/Elton. Those who don’t have the help simply struggle: Yao being an example.

By HB Ando

October 5, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

OK, who’s headin’ down to Philips tomorrow? I heard ATF with the call out, and I think I’m going to slide on down there.

Joe, I guess I can give you a temporary beat writers’ perspective (but I guess it would kind of be your “alternate universe/evil twin” version, since it’s coming from me).

I hope Horford will be playing. I hear what Myc was saying, on the previous blog, about his belief that he’s a five, here. But looking like a beast of a five against Zaza and Jones is EXACTLY why I’d like this guy to get the opportunity to be a four for this team, if not now, in the near future. Just ‘cause the Hawks need him at 5 doesn’t mean they’re doing right by him, and his potential as an NBA player, by playing him there. I feel the same way about Smith at the 4.

No matter how good Marvin is, as a 3, the Hawks will never reach their potential, if the back court is a success with Law and Johnson, with Smith and Horford playing as undersized 4’s and 5’s, respectfully. If you really like those two guys, then you have to acknowledge that the optimal Hawks’ starting line up will be with Johnson at the 2, Smith at the 3, and Horford at the 4, with a real center to play behind them. If Law is for real, either this year or next, then there will be something to be excited about.

With Smith at the 4 and Horford at the 5, THEY’LL be subjected to mismatches all season long. But the day the team can deploy them at the 3 and 4, it’ll be the OTHER teams with match up nightmares.

And the truth is, as much as I’m castigated for my ongoing negativity, I’d be doing an about face right now, on this season’s potential, if our lineup was Law, Johnson, Smith, Horford, and a legit, veteran center. In my mind, Marvin will be the odd man out, unless money forces this weak ownership group to sign-and-trade Smith next summer, when somebody signs him to a max offer sheet. I’d hate to see it, but if they then chose to move him for an emerging big man, with the same level of potential at the five, that Smith shows at forward, then they go with Marvin and the new big. Either way, I see Horford as the four of the future.

As Ray says, it’s a rehash. But it’s a conclusion I suggested was inevitable almost a year and a half ago, and it’s getting nearer to it’s fruition.

I’m just thinking about Horford, as he matches up against Shaq, Howard, Okafor, Iggy, Curry (Sam’s boy, who slimmed DOWN to 275), Perkins (who will emerge in Boston this year), Haywood, etc. He’s going to be physically over matched, nightly, at the five. Will he compete? Hell yes. But he’ll wear down quickly and we’ll see only glimpses of his true strengths.

I’m not a big Woody fan, but for what seems like the millionth year in a row, he will not be able to put his five best talents on the floor at the same time, and hope to win. Too much overlap, positionally.

9 forwards, 5 points and a Johnson, in a pear tree…………

By HB Ando

October 5, 2007 5:38 PM | Link to this

Ray, looks like we both had Myc’s comments on the mind.

Warped ones think alike??!!

By honest_abe

October 5, 2007 6:06 PM | Link to this

i don’t know about you guys but i feel like the blue team should be whooping the white teams a*. is joe johnson getting off to a slow start. or maybe both joshes have taken yet another step in their rapid development or better yet could it possibly be that the williams boys have finally started coming close to living up to their high draft selection?

either way i’m glad to see that people are really fighting out there for positions… i think the high level of competition can only be positive for this team.

ando and ray are right. horford could play the 5, but he’s too small to play the position night in night out. he has superstar potential as a power forward. i guess i had better stop or i’ll just be copying what ando said.

do i have time to catch the scrimmage and still see the georgia game? hmmmm

By HB Ando

October 5, 2007 6:19 PM | Link to this

OK, thought the positional requirements, and designations, are a bit iffy (why wouldn’t they be when it’s the “positionless” Hawks we’re talking about), these projections are fairly telling. A guy with ESPN, named Brian McKitish, has ranked fantasy players, by position, leading into the fantasy hoops season.

Here’s the good new: JJ is #5 at SG, and Josh Smith is #3 at SF (OK, if you say he’s an SF, I guess he is, though sure seems like he’s a PF to me, with Marvin on the floor).

Here’s the bad: Acie Law is #28 at PG, followed by Lue at #41 and Claxton at #42, and he had this to say:

“And here come the time-shares. I’m not going to lie: It’s an absolute mess in Memphis, Atlanta, Seattle, Portland and Houston. In fact, we could probably do a full column on each team and still have plenty of issues to discuss. I’m not going to tell you who will be the starters, because I don’t know. I don’t know because the coaches still don’t know and probably won’t know until midway through training camp. And even then, we’re likely to see the minutes spread out rather than see true starters and backups. Like I said, it’s a mess.”

Wait, it gets better: Marvin is #28 and Horford is #32, at PF.

And Zaza is #29 at center.

Now, Hollinger’s projections not withstanding, how likely is it that a team, who’s projected starters, at three positions, PF, C and PG, are all predicted to be in the bottom 3 (if you’re rightfully counting that there are 30 teams, and, thus, 30 starters at each position), league-wide, is somehow going to be a playoff team, in the East.

Not coincidentally, there’s an article, on ESPN.com, about the Rev. Jim Jones, and his grandson, the hoopster.

More Kool-Aid, anyone?

By HB Ando

October 5, 2007 6:23 PM | Link to this

Got 7 in Sam’s league. Who’s missin’? Ray, you can find the time to draft and play. You spend an hour a day, finely crafting words of wisdom.

Where ‘ya at?

By mykhalc

October 5, 2007 6:27 PM | Link to this

SEKOU, appreciate VERY MUCH the team breakdown!! you da man!!

BIG RAY, ANDO, i REALLY do hear what both of you cats are sayin’. i really do. BUT ZAZA is the SECOND leadin’ rebounder on the team, not the first. if he was the beef that is needed to make HORFORD the OTHER part of a BEEFIER tandem that i think both you guys think is needed, then WHY is ZAZA not leadin’ the way on the boards already??? my answer is HIS BEEF DOES NOT bring the beef in the paint where it’s needed nor will he and HORFORD in tandem make our best reboundin’ and shot blockin’ team!!! that tandem is SMITH and HORFORD…again IMHO.

ZAZA had less than 1 blk/game!!! SMOOVE avg almost 3 blk/game!! who NEEDS the help??? JS needs the help, not ZAZA!!! and i believe, unless camp proves me wrong, that HORFORD is the guy that WILL make the difference in the paint.

and i’m not sayin’ leave HORFORD at the 5 all nite. i’m just sayin’ i WOULD LIKE TO SEE our best unit start and finish the game. and right now, i believe that unit includes HORFORD at the 5 spot!!

By Traceman

October 5, 2007 6:37 PM | Link to this

Ando, fantasy stats mean absolutely nothing when it comes to how we will perform as a team. In addition, it will be difficult for a lot of our guys to put up decent fantasy stats because a lot of them will be listed in fantasy at different positions than they actually play.

Zaza, Horford and Shelden may not put up top numbers individually in fantasy but I’m willing to bet that their COMBINED production at the Center position will be very good. Same goes for Smoove and Horford at PF, Marvin, Smoove and Chillz at SF, JJ, Chillz and Salim at SG and the entire crew at PG.

By HB Ando

October 5, 2007 6:43 PM | Link to this

Myc, it’s not that I don’t feel what you’re bringing. I just think you’re confusing stats with the likelihood of wins. Isn’t this the same argument I spent hours dissecting, last year, when we drafted Shelden, acknowledged he was supposed to be here to board and block, and then wondered how he could get starters’ minutes, when the team had to be committed to playing, and developing, Marvin and Josh, as book end forwards?

Yeah, Horford at the five gives us our most talented line up, as it stands. Just like, last year, a front line of Marvin, Josh and Zaza was the best front court, talent-wise.

Didn’t equate to wins.

And Horford, at five, will simply play a role in a repeat of last years’ futility.

I said, at the beginning of last summer, that the conundrum faced by Woody, and the Hawks, was that they had to put Josh and Marvin on the court, together, to both see what they could bring, and to let them develop their games. BUT, I said that their most talented line up most likely wouldn’t give them the best chance to win, on most nights. Last years’ results bore that out.

So playing Horford at the five won’t lead to more wins, will lead him to a quicker trip to the “rookie wall”, and won’t give him optimal match ups on either end of the floor.

It’s all about balance, bro. And we still ain’t got none.

By HB Ando

October 5, 2007 6:48 PM | Link to this

Trace, get back to me in April and let me know how well that projection worked out for you.

I’m comfortable with my assessment of the team. As I have been in years’ past.

Nothing has changed, here, or anywhere else, regarding differences of opinions. I’m pretty clear on the limitations of fantasy value and net wins. The whole CAN be greater than the sum of it’s parts. Those particular projections just highlight how little respect those parts, as individuals, as rated against their peers, really get.

I’ll say right now that this team won’t make the playoffs. If you disagree, then we’ll see how it plays.

By mykhalc

October 5, 2007 6:51 PM | Link to this

ANDO, i think you have had a very good point for goin’ on 2 yrs now about how it will PROBABLY come down to MARVIN or JS at the 3. and you are right again in sayin’ the addition of HORFORD makes that even more of a possibilty. BUT (LOL) until JS has improved his handles i cannot see him as a/THE 3. yeah, we know his luv for the jackin’ up the 3, but his game is not the game of a 3….YET!!! so RIGHT NOW, he best serves the team as the 4, close to the basket, leadin’ the team in boards and block shots, providin’ that weakside help DESPITE him bein’ an undersized 4 as you say.

i think the key to THIS YEAR, at least the start anyway, is how does MARVIN show himself in year 3???? does he step up and help out more on the boards and defensive end???

By mykhalc

October 5, 2007 7:36 PM | Link to this

ANDO, one more thing. i DO NOT believe as you do…And Horford, at five, will simply play a role in a repeat of last years’ futility.

HORFORD brings more to the table than ZAZA. imagine what happens when SMOOVE starts gettin’ some weakside help. imagine if SMOOVE all of a sudden became the 2nd leadin’ rebounder and shot blocker (and that’s not because of a drop off in his production either)????

no my friend, ZAZA might be taller and weigh more, but HORFORD brings a whole other thing to the game and team now!!!…IMHO

By mykhalc

October 5, 2007 8:32 PM | Link to this

ATF, my learjet is outta fuel!! no wait, i think my cousin borrowed it!! can’t make it in from san fran for this one!!LOL definitely wish i could be there. you cats need to take paper, pen, and video cam!! updates please!!! ENJOY!! GO YOUNG GUNS!!!

By Darrin "The Vent King"

October 5, 2007 9:05 PM | Link to this

I’m glad to hear guys are hungrier this year. I can’t wait to see Al Horford out there. I think alot of people hear in Atlanta are sleeping on this fortune of having Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, and Al Horford together. JJ is a bona-fied star offensive player already, J Smith is unbelievably gifted physically, and well Horford, my goodness if this kid continues on the path he was on at Florida, woo-wee he is going to be super solid alot faster than people realize. The key to this all being a success IMO is playing “D”. We have to just straight stop people more when we need to and without thinking about. Think “D” first and the scoring will take care of itself. I hope Horford can help jump-start this. Not be it all, but inspire others around him. Horford is used to playing that way, trust me, I am a Gator fan, and that’s how he, Noah, and Brewer did it- fed off each other’s energy. Horford and J. Smith at forward? Man-nnn I hope they figure a way to get both of them out there together. They are going to be swatting ish left and right. That will jump start the offense and then good things can start happeining for this team. At least I hope so. It’s been awhile since I even had any hope, but this may finally get interesting.

GO HAWKS!!

By infamouskrs

October 5, 2007 9:25 PM | Link to this

everyone has to remember…JSmith brings out the HAWKS die-hards! without a guy like this..ticket sales drop dramatically! SIGN THA GUY…sign SALIM…secure what small fan base the team has!~

By infamouskrs

October 5, 2007 9:39 PM | Link to this

also…very interested to know if SOLO has put on that NBA weight that seems to be an essential ingrediant now-a-days!

By Darrin "The Vent King"

October 5, 2007 9:40 PM | Link to this

I feel ya infamouskrs, but soon it will be J Smith AND A Horford. If they can them two out on the court together…OMG! I can see it like it was a movie:

“Play exciting defense, and they will come.”

lol

GO HAWKS!

By infamouskrs

October 5, 2007 9:51 PM | Link to this

IN NO WAY can you let a guy like Smoove “test tha market” ! it is my MOST SOBOR BELIEF……..”LOSE JOSH(s), lose tha team”.

PRINT THAT !

By A Thinking Fan

October 5, 2007 9:54 PM | Link to this

mykhalc I would send for you in mine, but it is in the repair shop - LOL! We’ll give you a good update…

By infamouskrs

October 5, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this

you guys gotta let me into (at least) 1 of those BALLER leagues you guys are flappin’ about…………….

By infamouskrs

October 5, 2007 10:06 PM | Link to this

where’s BBPrincess….been? I’m putting out an APB ! maybe Ray can help on this 1…………

By Remembering Roundfield

October 5, 2007 11:54 PM | Link to this

As I have been saying since last year, we need to give Solomon a chance to develope as a true 5 and properly use the natural 4’s& 5’s that we have on the roster.

By Clyde

October 6, 2007 1:43 AM | Link to this

Remembering Roundfield that’s the problem. Woody isn’t goIng to give him the opportunity. To me Solomon should be starting but this year the only way he’s getting playing time is if someone get’s hurt.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By doc

October 6, 2007 8:09 AM | Link to this

clyde thus far solo is the most unreliable guy on the hawks when it comes to team success by the numbers outside of lorenzen. he is big and long but makes too many mistakes to be considered a factor though it is fun to see his occcasional block. unfortunately he is out of position too often to be able to dominate the area if he is to be effective, mercurial is the word and it only gets your heat and heart to rise but no wins.

sekou, you echoed my thoughts exactly on why they wont, that is the hawks. there is another reason the wont coming out of the gate. they have to change everyone’s mindset about playing them. thus far most teams think, no they know, they have the hawks number, usually it is by either playing a very controlled, disciplined game or just running out the big bodies and playing over their heads litterally to beat them. it is up to the hawks to make the adjustments to play a different game or play better the one they have failed on so often the last three years to SHOW other teams that they are differrent and will have to be treated differently. that goes for getting the refs to respect them as well, crybaby stuff has to go.

yes the bobcats have our number and it could be worse this year. the heat are still in it because of udonis that you didnt mention on the heat roster, posey got away and they are more like a tower ready to tumble, just dont know if it is this year. funny unless stan doesnt come up with something i dont like the magic, they remind me too much of what the timberwolves were or werent with garrett and what they look like with howard only. maybe the new guy will be it, but we have seemed to have their number. the wiz have the talent but dont have the stabilizing force to be a consistant threat, unfortunately they have our number. so maybe we are above maybe the wiz and the magic in our own division, still leaves us with too many other teams above us from the other divisions that have out number. still dont feel it guys by logic.

sekou great stuuf to get the season started. would like to be at the show this am but got obligations. look forward to some of the summaries by the sekou band of brothers, no blog z’s band of noble experts on how the hawks should be run, since it isnt our dime. i do think this committee could have done just as well as the broken atlanta spirit as we agree to disagree and are of total acceptance to the other. if only their egos had been able to do the same we could be flying high and maybe have a legit BIG by now to compliment the rest of the hawks.

one more thing i like the idea of zaza and horford together as they will resemble what worked well for the clips two years ago, shame one of them got hurt last year and now elton is down this year. i hope we have the guts to at least try zaza, horford and smash together. i vote for zaza to stay at five as he has the most experience and least mobility of the three, with jj at two and someone to run the point. even a healthy speedy playing his aggressive defense would be a great compliment if only he gets the confidince to do his thing rather than be crippled by his coach and possibly his two guard (yes it is an elephant in the room, so i said it). both him and salim looked very confused and unconfident on the court last year and that comes from the coaching staff and playing out of fear to avoid mistakes rather than playing with confidence and desire to make it happen.

it also is interesting to hear salim talk, what will it look like to have him on the court with marvin and acie and where does chills fit or lue or sheldon? and where is that needed BIG to compliment the second unit cause it aint solo or lorenzen? we still have a roster spot but we are being good sodiers as an organization and holding down or up, however you want to put it, our end of the cap. it will assure us we either are at the botttom or holding up the rest of the east just like years gone past unless the coaches are going to offer a really new look, cant wait to see it. maybe some of it will be unveiled today to stimulate the fan base and get some tickets sold.

ando. you better be on the sidelines holding court with sekou and atf. looking forward to the recap.

By Astro Joe

October 6, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this

Seems like a lot of focus on individual pieces. This is a team game. As I recall, Dwight Howard had several sub-par games against last year. In fact, I don’t recall too many bigs eating us alive last season. Instead, it was the slashing guards/forwards that feasted on our inferior interior defense. We don’t need to win each and every position battle to be a playoff team. Don’t believe me? Show me one of the 8 bottom playoff teams from last season that had some top 25 talent at each position. Lastly, maybe, just maybe, we can force teams to match up against us instead of the other way around. I’d love to see what Haywood, Bogut and Ilgauskas can do with Horford’s quickness. Will we lose some positional battles? Of course. But if we’re supposed to wait until we have a top 25 talent at each position, then we’ll be here waiting for a long, long, long, long time.

By smartguy

October 6, 2007 10:37 AM | Link to this

Yo, Ando, of all the dumb stuff on this blog over the last few years, your connection of success on the court to where players are picked in fantasy drafts has to be the dumbest of all. Traceman was right and you are wrong, but as long as you’re comfortable with it, go for it. There’s a reason its called “fantasy.” And get your panties out of a wad just because one writer for espn.com picked us to finish seventh.

By mj

October 6, 2007 11:03 AM | Link to this

I really want to beleive in this team going to the playoffs but I’m somewhat pessimistic about that…… however I’m glad to see/hear that the training camps are going well.

By the way, where are they having their scrimmages & is it free to the public? Would really like to see physically see what we have this year.

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Mike

October 6, 2007 11:17 AM | Link to this

Guys I too would like to see some copious post from my young Hawks. My pumpkin is taking the SAT today, so I want be able to make it to the scrimmage.

Doc your comments were a little crude about Solo. Remember they all have talent or they wouldn’t be in the NBA. It’s commitment to improve, dedication and determination to work on your shortcoming in the off season that ultimately determines how successful they guys will. Solo played in the Big East, so he ain’t chop liver. Cleveland thought the same thing about DeSagana Diop, I bet they wish him now.

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By HB Ando

October 6, 2007 11:37 AM | Link to this

smartguy, no panties wadded here. And I say to you what I said to Trace: Just an interesting point of reference. I’ll stand by my prediction that we won’t make the playoffs. What do you and Trace predict? And will you be hear in April to eat crow when you’re wrong? I’ll be here, either way. Man enough to say I was wrong if they’re in the top 8, in the East.

But, I suspect, just like last year when the pre-season blog was loaded with unrealistic predictions of a playoff season. All those loud voices oddly disappeared by April, no where to be found.

Still no sure how you get my reaction to Hollinger’s prediction as “panties in a wad”. Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. Just said it’s not going to happen. Book it.

By Mike

October 6, 2007 11:49 AM | Link to this

HB don’t listen to the guys, keep making your post, so we can all laugh. Remember laughter is therapeutic. Can’t say I agree with any of your posts, because they’re so negative, but at lease you’re consistent. Gotta give you one point for comment on Marvin.

Smartguy man you got me cracking up, this by far the best blog in the ATL.

The Hawks are Buzzzzzziiiiiiinnnnnngggggggggggg!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YEA, YOU’LL KNOW WHAT TIME IT IS, IT’S THEM BIRDS TIME BABY.

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By smartguy

October 6, 2007 1:23 PM | Link to this

Ando, as long as Woody is still the coach, I am quite pessimistic about our chances. Last year, I predicted we would be the sixth or seventh seed. I was clearly wrong. I thought that last year, with an improved roster and another year of playing together, that we would be pretty good. Then I realized just how bad of a coach Woody is. I don’t know why I didn’t see it more clearly before (I think the lack of established players and “gel time” hid the fact that Woody is simply a terrible head coach), but last year my Hawks spirit was crushed.

For this year, I want to copy what someone said a month ago. We will be terrible until December or January, when they let Woody go. After that, we will be much improved, but will still only finish with a win total in the 30’s. My ultimate prediction is that we will not make the playoffs. Since Phoenix has our draft pick next year, it really doesn’t matter how far out we are. I see this year as a year of maturation for the franchise. We must get key players (mainly #5) locked up long term, and we need to find a good coach. Do that, and I love our prospects down the road

I still love the Hawks. I love the players, but unfortunately that is about it. Fortunately, liking the players is the most important thing. I don’t need to say any more about how much I dislike our coach. Our owners (esp the non-Belkin group) make me want to vomit. And I think our GM is a laughing stock, around the league and within this franchise.

Will I still be around next year to stick by my words? I don’t know. If Woody is here, and Smooth is gone, I’ll probably be gone for good, too.

By Brian L.

October 6, 2007 1:53 PM | Link to this

Sekou…I enjoy every article you write. You are the best the ajc has in my opinion. The other writers use the typical approach…(i.e. create controversy, racial or otherwise) All you do is give us good info, coverage, and opinion. (could you please cover the Falcons too?)

Good job! and Go Hawks.

By HB Ando

October 6, 2007 3:16 PM | Link to this

Well, just got back from Philips, where I had a chance to see for myself (and chat with SS, briefly).

I know most of you aren’t going to like it but what I saw is this:

[Regarding Horford]I hear what Myc was saying, on the previous blog, about his belief that he’s a five, here. But looking like a beast of a five against Zaza and Jones is EXACTLY why I’d like this guy to get the opportunity to be a four for this team, if not now, in the near future. Just ‘cause the Hawks need him at 5 doesn’t mean they’re doing right by him, and his potential as an NBA player, by playing him there. I feel the same way about Smith at the 4.

No matter how good Marvin is, as a 3, the Hawks will never reach their potential, if the back court is a success with Law and Johnson, with Smith and Horford playing as undersized 4’s and 5’s, respectfully. If you really like those two guys, then you have to acknowledge that the optimal Hawks’ starting line up will be with Johnson at the 2, Smith at the 3, and Horford at the 4, with a real center to play behind them. If Law is for real, either this year or next, then there will be something to be excited about.

With Smith at the 4 and Horford at the 5, THEY’LL be subjected to mismatches all season long. But the day the team can deploy them at the 3 and 4, it’ll be the OTHER teams with match up nightmares.

And the truth is, as much as I’m castigated for my ongoing negativity, I’d be doing an about face right now, on this season’s potential, if our lineup was Law, Johnson, Smith, Horford, and a legit, veteran center. In my mind, Marvin will be the odd man out, unless money forces this weak ownership group to sign-and-trade Smith next summer, when somebody signs him to a max offer sheet. I’d hate to see it, but if they then chose to move him for an emerging big man, with the same level of potential at the five, that Smith shows at forward, then they go with Marvin and the new big. Either way, I see Horford as the four of the future.

Now, if that sounds familiar, it’s ‘cause it’s a cut and paste from my post yesterday, a little after five.

And having seen these guys for myself, it’s couldn’t seem more true.

Horford is going to be a GREAT 4 in this league. And he could play 5, if Atlanta faced Zaza and Lo Wright 82 games a season. But now that I’ve seen him up close (2nd row, right behind the great Sekou Smith), I can tell you he’s not a center. And if they play him there, they’ll wear him down, and he’ll hit the rookie wall, hard, in about 25 games. Zaza is a good 2 inches taller.

Acie Law looks pretty compelling. But he’s still got a shooter’s mentality, and if he, or the max-contract seeking (and probably deserving something in that ballpark) Josh Smith, decide they should be the go-to guy on this team, instead of deferring to, and seeking out, Joe Johnson, it’s going to be an even longer season.

Josh still makes you cringe when he’s pulling up long-range shots. I mean, a few are going in, but there’s nothing consistent about that stroke. It’s when he’s attacking, on either end, that he simply has skills/talents that very few players in the league possess. And because of that, he’s pretty much irreplaceable in this teams’ future.

Soloman Jones is filling out and coming along. He looks smoother and stronger, and he looks like a late bloomer. But the idea that he can give the team some solid minutes seems fair. And they’ll need his length in the post, defensively.

Lue, Speedy and AJ all look long in the tooth. There’s a team out there, with playoff (realistic) aspirations, who could use a veteran PG, so somebody needs to be moved/packaged.

We don’t have a center, and we don’t have a first-round pick next summer. So it’s time for the franchise to come up with a package that addresses one, or both, of those deficiencies.

I can tell you this: With a year under there belts, for Law and Horford, a contract in hand for Smith, and the ever-present Johnson, this team truly is a legit center from having true playoff potential.

Odd men out are Marvin and Shelden, long-term. And they’re our best assets, along with one of those vet. PG’s, to try and get a center. I’m not sure they can accomplish what they need to, while Marvin is still on his rookie contract, trade-wise, but it’s gonna happen.

It has to happen. JJ, Smith and Horford, at the 2,3 and 4, give this team legit star power in the coming years. Law has potential to be the real deal, and his lack of pass-first mentality is not as daunting given that JJ and Smith are both really good at giving up the rock.

Childress just quietly goes about his business. Solid as a rock. And though I will never waiver on my preference (both pre-draft and beyond) that we should have taken Igoudala or Deng, instead, his versatility and all-court game (and court smarts!) make it that much easier for us to live without Marvin, down the road (and make no mistake, Marvin is going to be a player in this league, but we’re talking about putting together the BEST TEAM, competitively).

Can’t see how Shelden is going to get any minutes,not that it’s his fault. But he’s got 3 better forwards, in Smith, Marvin and Horford, and he’s simply way too short to play center. And if the team believes, and Jones’ proves it out, that Soloman can be a legit, back-up 4-5, then being able to package both Williams’, for that elusive, still unidentified center, gives us assets that should make for a compelling offer.

I couldn’t see much change in Smith’s game, but he still had a half-dozen highlight reel plays, on both ends of the court (including a “through the legs” dunk, on the break). Of course he threw up about that many off- balance jumpers, with few finding their mark.

Marvin looked quicker (big feet moving well). But he’s the odd man out if you want a future title contender.

Wright did nothing, and he’s a good option for a veteran, expiring contract, piece of a trade package.

JJ looked smooth, but he wasn’t in sync with his teammates, including Law, but it was just a scrimmage, so you know you’re going to get near-all-star play, as long as he’s healthy and on the court.

Guys like Curry, Z. Randolph, Howard, O’Neal, O’Neal, Garnett and Perkins, Okafor, Gasol even guys like Haywood (not to mention some of the bigs in the West, where even a young big like Bynum will emerge as a dominant young center, this year), will be too long and/or too heavy to handle by this teams’ current big men

Lot’s of nice pieces, many of them to similar for a balanced, playoff-bound roster.

35-36 wins. Phoenix gets our lottery pick.

Caveat: come up with a package and get a real center, with solid talent and true, big man size on the low block, before next summer, and this team could make the playoffs this season.

Do it in the off-season, and this team will finally be what folks have been hoping for.

Next season.

By MsDee

October 6, 2007 4:11 PM | Link to this

I too just came back from watching the team play and basically everything HB Ando said is true about the performance of each player. But what I can say that is different is that this is only a scrimmage against themselves which means they know how eachother plays, their moves, etc. I will make my true predictions after the pre-season games where they will be playing against other teams!! Yeah, Shelden looked pretty bad against Solo & Horford. I was embarrassed for him but hopefully he can perform better against the Hornets this Thursday! I will be there!

By mykhalc

October 6, 2007 4:23 PM | Link to this

ANDO, GREAT POST man!!! well, you know i like to be right as much as the next person BUT i do know that your critique of the team/players is as honest as they get. so again thanks for the detail.

like i said yesterday, i hear you and BIG RAY loud and clear. and to be honest i was hopin’ you’d have somethin’ different to say after seein’ HORFORD up close. but it is what it is!!! you did say HORFORD would hit a wall, in your opinion, if they did play him at the 5. but does he bring somethin’, even if it’s a few minutes per game, at the 5 that ZAZA does not bring??? in other words, did you see ANY upside to him bein’ played at the 5 spot while JS is at the 4???

let me ask you this. did you see anythin’ new/better from ZAZA at the scrimmage??? same ole same ole???

also, any invitee stand out for ya???

again man, great recap. i’ll be interestin’ to see if others that attended walked out with the same take!!???!!!

By Steve T

October 6, 2007 4:26 PM | Link to this

Hustle, aggressive, and in shape are some of the adjective that one can use to describe the Hawks this season. I know it was just a scrimmage, but I am not envious of the Hawks’ coaching staff. I would really hate to have the job of trying to cut someone this season. This quite a few weeks away, and like I stated, I will let the coaches worry about the final roster.

Let us get to the reason why all of went to the scrimmage. The first thing I would like to say is the point guard situation has been address. Acie Law is the truth. Folks, he is the real deal. We all know he can hit the jumper, but what we not have known is he can put the ball on the floor. He showed the skills to drive the ball to the hoop.

People you may be surprise that Salim flash some point guard abilities. He is much improved this year. He can help us at both guards. I can not wait to see him in the new offense. He is going to create some problem in the new offense. Also, he played some defense. He was not afraid the in paint against some of the big guys. He played a shot or two. If I recall correctly, he blocked one of J. Smith’s shots. Yes, he has some ups too.

The man who may be the most important person at point guard may be Anthony Johnson. He stood out in warm ups. I was sitting there thinking that if this guy can hit the outside shot with more consistency, he could be a top player in the league. I would like to see him do like Bird and practice hitting the outside shoot. He needs to be one of the last guys to leave practice.

Can I get a drum roll please, now for the player that you all been waiting to hear about AL HORFORD! I know there were many question about this pick. I will not go as far as to say he is the best pick in that draft class, but I would like to see a more NBA ready player from that class. Some may not agree with me, but I think that AL may be the best player on the Hawks bar none. The hawks have a future all star in this guy. Someone asked me what can he do? I told him you need to rephrase that question and ask what he can not do. The guy can run, shot, pass, jump, play defense, etc.

I know a lot of people questioned the wisdom of drafting Marvin William. I can see Marvin was a good pick. The question should be are the Hawks using him to get the most out of him. I was watching him shoot during warm ups and I notice that this guy can shoot almost as well as Larry Bird. I think I would use him like Boston use to play Larry. I would like to see the Hawks run Marvin off some screens. The Celtics use to set picks to get Larry to an open spot. I would like to see what Marvin could do if he could get some open shots.

We had two players that really hustled two day Josh Childress and Mario West. Childress is more aggressive this season. Mario needs to earn a spot because he will hustle and make things happen.

The Hawks can make the play offs.

By Steve T

October 6, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

There have been lots of debate about AL size, and can he play at the 5. Al is 6-10 - 245 LW is 6-10 - 255 Zaza is 6-11 - 280 Al may look small, but trust me it is muscle. He is solid.

By newkid

October 6, 2007 4:46 PM | Link to this

Gotta agree with Ando on most of his observations from today’s intrasquad contest, but disagree on others. First the agreements.

Horford won’t hold up physically at the 5 spot over an 82 game schedule that includes the likes of Howard, Shaq, Curry, etc. He’ll do well in spot duty at the 5 against the Amares, Ben Wallaces, Cambys, and lesser types. What he will bring (at either the 4 or 5) is the tenacity down low this team has missed for several years. Consequently he’ll get to the line plenty (can he make his foul shots?). He looked pretty ugly when he stepped beyond 8 feet, but he’s a beast around the basket. If today’s any indication, he will NOT be intimidated by anyone. I don’t think he’ll play like the typical rookie after the first 20 games.

In one of his novels the writer James Michener talked about how internatlly conflicted we all are in some respects. Josh Smith and his ‘am I a 3 or a 4’ dichotomy is the perfect example of such a conflict. I feel badly for this kid and his future development if his ‘handlers’ don’t soon clearly define his role.

Solomon is clearly stronger, but hasn’t gained much more weight. Appears to be more comfortable (compared to last season) on the floor, but he’s still only good for 14-16 minutes per contest; any more and he’s disqualified on personal fouls. He still won’t be able to stand his ground with heavier post players, but will get his share of rejections on help defense.

Barring injuries (to some of the other front court players), Sheldon looks like the odd man out in terms of minutes. Horford’s gonna eat up many of the minutes Shell might have gotten at the 4 AND 5.

Now for the disagreements, well there’s actually only one that really stands out. Law did not at all appear to me to be a shoot first point; don’t think that’s his mindset. In fact I don’t recall him taking a single shot in the 1st half. Looked to me as if he was really trying to get his teammates involved whether he was with the ‘white’ team or the ‘blue’ team (he split his time between the two teams when the coaches decided to put Speedy on ice after the first half). Law demonstrated (in the second half) that he can indeed penetrate AND finish around the basket against taller players.

A few other observations. First, no one really demonstrated any real competency in outside shooting. Salim didn’t play at all after he appeared to slightly pull a hamstring in the 1st half, so we didn’t get to see much outside shooting from him. Joe, while smooth, was very effectively defended by Marvin throughout the scrimmage, and was ineffective outside. Seems we really need a competent ‘2’ to rest Joe.

Mario West stood out defensively; he was all over the court and diving on the floor for balls. This cat looks like he could shut down many of the 2’s in the league on a given night. He seems certain to get a contract with an NBA team this year.

Split squad workouts won’t give us the best opportunity to evaluate the effectiveness of the 1st and 2nd units. Just too much dilution of the talent pool under such a circumstance. One really needs the pre-season games to properly assess this team.

By Samuel

October 6, 2007 4:47 PM | Link to this

Ando,

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Only a couple of points I want ot emphasize.

All in all a great day. I could have done without all the preliminaries but hey,it was free.

Oh yea, basketball courts on top of ice hockey rinks is a bad idea. I would be very surprised if a couple of players don’t end up sick after playing in 30 degree weather. I’m still thawing. Cuz, next time I get them courtside seats, I’ll be sure to bring my parka.

Come on you Wimps. I know we got more than seven guys who are not afraid to test your hoops GM skills. Yall talk a good game. Put up or shut up. Yahoo Fantasy Basketball. League Name: Sekous Bloggers ID# 39462. Right Ando.

By MannyT

October 6, 2007 4:52 PM | Link to this

I was at the scrimmage today. My first thought was, it was cold in there.

As for hoops, you guys keep focusing on the negatives. I hope that we can use the depth to turn the negatives to an advantage.

We are missing the big center, but we have lots of ball handlers and slashers. Can we turn regular season games into a helter-skelter thing that minimizes the advantage of teams with dominant low post play? While it probably doesn’t work in the playoffs, a quirky style may give us a better chance of getting to the post season with the current roster.

If we use the preseason to find lineups that can work well together, we may force other teams to adjust to us. If the game looks more like a summer league game, it should minimize the effect of bigger, stronger, (hopefully slower) post players.

By LEA

October 6, 2007 4:53 PM | Link to this

That’s a slap in the face. Comparing anything Marvin does to what Bird did.

I was impressed with Horford, Law, Chill, West and Smoove today… Everyone else did nothing

Joe missed some shots. But i’m not worried about him. He will be fine

Za-Za is still clumsy.

Solo he was decent but he will never last in a game because he fouls way to much…

I sure hope that what I saw out of Marvin and Shelden is not what we can expect from them this season. If so we are in big trouble…..

I think the HAWKS need to find a way to get both Smoove and Chill resigned they mean so much to this team. And if the HAWKS let Smoove go they can forget about the few fans they still have left…

By Steve T

October 6, 2007 5:36 PM | Link to this

Lea, I am just saying that Marvin’s shooting stroke is just as smove as Larry. I would like to see the hawks run some picks to get Marvin some open shots. If he could hit that open shot, it will make Law, JJ, and Horford almost unstoppable.

With Marvin and JJ, we might be real good at the pick and roll. Marvin set the pick and JJ runs to the basket. If they shut him off, Marvin is open for a shot. In some cases, Horford could head to the basket for an easy lay in.

By JMF

October 6, 2007 5:38 PM | Link to this

These are my impressions from today’s scrimmage. I was real impressed with Horford. Strong, good moves. I thought Laws played well. Good moves and can handle the point. Smooth and Chills played good. Solo played well. Zaza look good. He and Al went at it with Al getting the better but Zaza played well.

Shelden looked lost, Marvin did not display the aggressiveness that I was anticipating.

It looked like Salim came up a little lame. What is the status.

By LEA

October 6, 2007 5:46 PM | Link to this

No problem Steve

By mykhalc

October 6, 2007 5:50 PM | Link to this

just a shout-out to ALL that are postin’ their takes and insight from the open scrimmage!!! i’m sure i speak for more than just myself in sayin’ BIG THANKS !!! very cool to see how different people see different things from the same show!!!!

By Astro Joe

October 6, 2007 7:22 PM | Link to this

Like mykhalc, I too appreciate the coverage from the scrimmage today. Sounds like we have a very good pair of rookies joining this squad. One more piece of info that no one has mentioned, how was the crowd? Did it appear that fan interest is up, down or the same?

By j-rock

October 6, 2007 10:00 PM | Link to this

I was in the frozen arena we call phillips 2day. Marvin isn’t aggressiveness enough to ever be a star. He doesn’t seem interested in taken the ball to the hole and finishes horribly around the paint. Larry Bird and Marvin Williams should never be used in the same sentence Steve T. Wake up!!!! He is never going to live up to a top two pick. He and Sheldon Williams will be on the block at the trading deadline.

By rainman

October 6, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this

Thanks for all the info guys. Cant wait to see how woody messes up this season.I would love to play again this season but I need the league I D . The one above does not work.

By Samuel

October 6, 2007 10:40 PM | Link to this

39462

By MannyT

October 6, 2007 10:51 PM | Link to this

rainman it works. I just tried it. You need the password which is hawks.

I bet you are an excellent driver ;-)

By HB Ando

October 6, 2007 11:07 PM | Link to this

Joe, there were far more folks there than I anticipated. Now, we’re not talking about 5,000, but there were a lot of butts in the seats, and they seemed pretty positive and hopeful.

As far as some of the Marvin comments go, I liked what I saw, from a handle standpoint, and an improved lateral quickness standpoint. And I think he’s still got a tremendous career in front of him. But I think he’s the odd man out, here. And I don’t think that possibility is lost on either him, or his people. This is big business, folks. If a layman like me can see that Horford is the 4 of the future, and that Smith does things at the 3 that very few players in the league can do, then Marvin and his agent know it too. And it’s my subjective opinion that Marvin has never been too impressed by the organization, or coaching staff, that he’s attached to. He’s a valuable asset for this franchise. And if, G forbid, the Spirit decide to let Josh Smith get away, in what would have to be some type of sign-and-trade (read: cheap-a* ownership group), then Marvin can be a tremendous 3, as this team continues to develop.

But if you’re looking at your optimum talent, at it’s proper positions on the floor, then the future of this team is Law at point, JJ at 2, Smith at the 3 and Horford at the 4, and a package of players, highlighted by an emerging Marvin Williams, for a player who can legitimately man the five for the next ten years (and I admit that I can’t tell you who that, realistically, is going to be).

And I’m not dissing Law’s PG skills. I just see a guy who reminds of a young Billups, who wandered through several teams before he found both the right system, and the developed floor leadership skills. Can he make those adjustments in just one year? That’s a lot to ask.

But, as I said, you slot the 1-4 that I’m liking, and move the right combination of assets for a strong, complimentary center, and you’ll have the team you’ve been hoping for.

This year isn’t the year. But with a real big man, next year could be the one you guys have been pining for the last 3 years.

Again, just my opinion. Can’t imagine that we’ll all agree.

By Mike

October 6, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this

Guys thanks for the update. Those were some really great observations. HB great assessment, I thought I actually heard you say the word we. Thanks to everyone for taking the time to make a post. We all know that the number priority for this team has to be to solidify the Pivot spot. Hopefully those cheap AS owners will get their AS in gear and make a move.
Thanks again guys GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Steve T

October 6, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this

J-rock, I was using stating that while watching Marvin in warm ups, I noticed how well he shot the ball. He has a real smooth shooting stroke.

Now I was just stating that may be we need to run him off some picks like the celtics use to do Bird. I would like to see what he could do if he could sqaure up to the basket for an open shot. I will just say that Marvin is only 21. You do not give up a player too early.

By ray

October 7, 2007 7:54 AM | Link to this

Thankyou to the guys who reported on the scrimmage. The insight is appreciated, as well as the minor variations in viewpoints.

Ando, it appears we are indeed of a like mind on the starting frontcourt. I made mention some short time ago of the EXACT same things you say about Horford, and was promptly ignored. Let’s hope Woody and Co. are smarter than that.

Funny thing is, I believe that Horford’s presence in the lineup can actually make Zaza better…on paper and in reality. Remains to be seen, though. And as you already said, Zaza is not the starting center of the future. But for now, Woody and Co. can only work with who he has.

Unfortunately for you and the rest of us, Billy has already come right out and said he is perfectly content to march right into the season with the roster set pretty much as it is. While this will inevitably send you on yet another tirade (although one full of truth) that’s the way it stands. Just read the Q&A with Sekou if you don’t believe me. Hopefully this mindset changes. It really makes one wonder what it would take for this man to see what needs to be done and DO IT.

By HB Ando

October 7, 2007 12:06 PM | Link to this

LOL, Ray, I don’t think Nike will be signing Billy up to a marketing contract any time soon……..

By mykhalc

October 7, 2007 12:32 PM | Link to this

well BIG RAY, ANDO, i’m gonna stick to my position despite what was seen yesterday!!! and believe me i don’t doubt anythin’ that was reported!!

i guess i believe straight up that HORFORD is just a better player and he can play the position better and more effectively…PERIOD!!!

where i think the front court of ZAZA, HORFORD and JS weakens the team is NOW you have taken the ONE player that made all the difference at the basket and moved him away from it!! ‘cause NOW he has to guard the 3. and i just DO NOT believe that ZAZA and HORFORD protectin’ the rim equals HORFORD and SMOOVE protectin’ the rim!!

the other thing about ZAZA is i REALLY think he is more comfortable comin’ off the bench. i do not think he has the mentality nor desire to want to bang with the cats down low. ZAZA is who we think he is…PERIOD!!!!

right now i’ll STILL take my chances on HORFORD bein’ more like a ZO MOURNING type (size and production wise) in the paint than ZAZA bein’ anythin’ other than what he is…a good backup!!!

like i said earlier the BEST, most PRODUCTIVE unit needs to be on the floor. and if that unit includes HORFORD then it’s up to WOODSON to see that he does not get worn out playin’ the position.

man, what a choice!!! WOODSON coachin’ with smarts or ZAZA startin’ at the 5!!!!geeeessshhhhhh LOL

By Steve T

October 7, 2007 2:21 PM | Link to this

The only thing that can make the Hawks much better is a F/C who can play defense, rebound, and block shots. I hope Solo can step up and help Horford and Smith. The landlord needs to bring his A game this season.

If the Hawks can get one of the guys to help control the paint, they will be just fine. We know that Zaza can help us in the scoring department. He can hustle on some plays, but he is not a shot blocker.

There is a player in camo I would like to see more in a game situation. I would like to see what Mr. Steven Smith could bring to the table. He is a wide body, 6-9 -250, that may help the hawks in the paint. We all know that Lo Wright can come in and play the enforcer.

By HB Ando

October 7, 2007 6:40 PM | Link to this

From the head count I’m doing, and if there are no trades before the season begins (which is a sad likelihood), then it would appear that Smith and West would be battling for the 15th roster spot. I think, from what little I saw, that both are worthy. But with the log jam at PG, West may be the odd man out. Sure would make sense, for the team, and, I’m sure, for either Lue or Johnson, to move one of those guys. Neither one of them is a 4th team PG. And there must be several teams that would love to have either one, as a veteran presence and back up. I’d actually like for Speedy to be the guy who moved on, but with his body, shot and contract, I think we’re pretty much stuck (thank you, Billy).

Per ST’s comment, regarding the Landlord, I honestly don’t know where his minutes are going to come from. At this point, from a front line standpoint, he’s behind Josh, Marvin, Al and Zaza. And with his inability to play any five, he may be dead even with Jones, when it comes to fitting into a rotation.

If it’s truly Billy’s intention to go into this season, with this roster, we won’t reach our potential, or the playoffs. Not at least this year.

By mykhalc

October 7, 2007 7:49 PM | Link to this

well looks like SEKOU’s article says we’re goin’ with the same ole, same ole!!! SPEEDY and ZAZA, i’m sorry but that $ucks!!! i can only hope that LAW and HORFORD show they are REALLY ready to take the spots ASAP!!!

By Steve T

October 7, 2007 8:50 PM | Link to this

Just because a person start does mean that they will plenty the whole game. Horford may come off the bench, but he may play so well that it will be hard to keep him on the bench. This is just preseason, and the line up may change prior to the start of the season.

Also. does it matter who starts. Horford may be in the game at crunch time or at the finish.

By mykhalc

October 7, 2007 9:21 PM | Link to this

Steve T, that’s true to a point. startin’ and finishin’ DO MATTER to players tho!! just the nature of ‘competitve’ sports. so when a coach says spots are open to earn then players believe that to be THE TRUTH!! and i’m not sayin’ who earned what and who did not. BUT BELIEVE ME, players in that locker room KNOW who should be gettin’ the nod and who shouldn’t!!!

By mykhalc

October 7, 2007 9:25 PM | Link to this

and just to be clear regardin’ my last post…typically players wanna start, the bulk of PT, and they wanna finish. ok i’m clear now…LOL

By Volman

October 7, 2007 9:26 PM | Link to this

Mykhalc, you must be wanting J-Chill at the point again!! There you go again with that crazy talk! haha.

Childress did look incredible at the open practice on Saturday, though.

I wouldn’t mind having Smith at 3, Horford at 4, and Zaza at 5. Horford had some disgusting moves down low… He definitely needs to get fed the ball as much as possible.

Thursday (first preseason home game) will be awesome. I can’t wait.

Go Hawks!!

By mykhalc

October 7, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

VOLMAN, wassup bro!!!!! yeah, ANYBODY but SPEEDY!!!!geeeessshhhh

now there you go hangin’ out with ANDO and BIG RAY about the 3, 4, and 5!!!LOL nope, sit ZAZA’s a$$ down and start HORFORD at the 5 spot!!! but hey, i know ain’t nobody thinkin’ like me!!!LOL

By Steve T

October 7, 2007 11:05 PM | Link to this

Most of the players on the Hawks are not selfish. Horford split time when he as in college. Marvin Williams sit the nbench at UNC because he wanted to win. I think these guys will do anything to win.

It is a long season. So we will see various people in the starting line up as the season progress.

By Samuel

October 8, 2007 6:24 AM | Link to this

Woody,

If that’s your starting 5.

Fire BK and Woody!

By ray

October 8, 2007 7:09 AM | Link to this

Samuel, my sentiments exactly.

Ando, here we go again…or should I say still.

Mykhalc, I respect you sticking to your guns. I’m sticking to mine too. I understand you feel Horford brings more than Zaza does. But that is a general and one-dimensional viewpoint. I’m not saying you are wrong and I’m right, I just want to clarify why I think the way I do, and what is bothering me in all of this. I’ll do so in my next post.

By ray

October 8, 2007 8:16 AM | Link to this

To say that Horford brings more to the game than does Zaza may indeed be a very true statement. However, it is a statement based on two variables in an equation that has possibly hundreds of variables to consider. Well, maybe not quite that many, but you get the point.

Horford has the speed, power, and agility not seen in Pachulia. He seems to have natural low post moves and natural aggression on both ends of the floor that Pachulia has not shown. Pachulia’s never been described as an absolute beast. Horford can’t seem to lose that tag (which is good for us).

However, Pachulia has endured a few 82 game seasons in the league. Horford has yet to play his first game. Pachulia has gone up against the best the league has to offer. Horford maybe got to shake a few hands or collect some autographs. If you haven’t guessed it by now, the key to this entire paragraph is one word: experience.

To grasp the concept, one has to put aside the alluring and obvious potential Horford has. The opinion I share with the illustrious Ando is that the TEAM will be better served by having Horford in the lineup WITH Pachulia as opposed to INSTEAD of him.

Why? Well, there are a number of reasons/theories, but we can concentrate on a few. First, how did Zaza fare last year with mostly only Josh Smith as his running mate in the frontcourt? Not so well, eh? All we could talk about was how we needed more beef in the post, and Sheldon just wasn’t showing he could do the very same thing he was reputedly drafted for.

Second, make no mistake about Josh and his talents. He is NOT a premiere power forward, nor is he a low post enforcer. He is a good one-on-one defender, but should not be left alone to defend talented opposing power forwards. Most of those guys are bigger and stronger. And Josh’s biggest strength on defense is his weak-side defense help. He got most of his blocks by chasing people down or coming over to help a teammate who either already blew the defensive assignment, or was able to deflect opposing offensive player from his chosen path, which allowed Josh to defend them….from the weak side.

So you see, having Josh at the 4 with Horford at the 5 doesn’t make Josh any better than he is. And it fails to maximize his talents. It also doesn’t make the situation better, because now you’ve only succeeded in placing Horford in the same position Pachulia has been in. And Horford with less experience, regardless of his brawn and talent. This is not a good way to start the guy off. AGAIN, Josh is not a low post guy, he’s a big 3 who needs the room and freedom to fly in, out, and all over the court on defense. He’s probably the most dangerous and talented help defender in the league. It’s crazy to lock him down at the 4 where he can routinely get pounded by bigger, stronger guys.

Third, I’m sure many have noticed Horford’s uncanny passing ability. He routinely ran high post-low post plays with Sheldon in the summer league games (I got to see some of it on NBA TV)and made it look GOOD. In fact, he made Sheldon look good. Put him full-time at center and you take that ability away. Who’s he going to throw it to…Josh? Josh is not a post up monster, nor is Marvin. But guess who would benefit from such plays? That’s right, Pachulia. Or you can run it reverse, since Pachulia likes to drive from the top of the key and is a better jump shooter. Either way, Horford makes the situation better simply by introducing matchup and offensive situations previously impossible with the players we had.

Fourth, look at the teams who have succeeded without a true starting center. What do they usually trot out onto the court? Two power forwards and a small forward. Detroit did it and still does. You could argue that such was the case in Golden State. You cannot run a power forward and two small forwards and expect to do much. Only one place I can think of where it worked for the most part, would be Phoenix. But when you have Steve Nash, and backups like Leandro Barbosa, an offense that actually runs you out of the gym, and a coach like D’Antoni, you can do A LOT. But notice how they still couldn’t get over the hump against teams like San Antonio because they didn’t have that second effective F/C down low? I’ll mention again their efforts to give the amazing Stoudamire some help: last time it was Kurt Thomas they signed. This time it’s Brian Skinner.

Now don’t tell me you can’t see the relevancy of this. If the great Stoudamire needs help in the paint, wouldn’t Horford?

Fifth, taking Marvin Williams out of the starting lineup does a few things. First, it gives us as balanced a lineup as we can possibly manage with the personnel we have. Second, imagine a second unit that looks like this: AJ at pg, Chills at sg, Marvin at sf, and a combo of Sheldon/Solomon/Wright/whoever at pf and center. The best part of that is the 1 through 3 positions, simply because if the situation calls for it matchup-wise, you could conceivably move Marvin down to the 4, Chills to the 3, and inject Salim in at the 3, while running Solomon at the 5. More options and better options, yes? And lastly, if this isn’t enough to light a sufficient fire under Marvin, I don’t know what is. If Marvin’s relegation to the second unit doesn’t cause him to come out like he never has before, then he has more than proven Ando’s theory that this is the swingman we should be trading.

Funny thing is, even if Marvin responds aggressively, will he be good enough to displace someone in the starting lineup? Probably not. At the same time, I doubt seriously that Marvin would be satisfied with doing what Childress does now: sixth man role. No, he wants to start, and was drafted to do so. But again, who could he conceivably replace? Only Smith. And with Smith, you only let him go to get that elusive promising low post dominator (again, as Ando has theorized). And you better be damn sure that’s what you’re getting.

Either way, a good year for Marvin or Josh means better trade bait when the inevitable decision has to be made and the trade engineered. Don’t like it myself, but have a hard time arguing against it.

By doc

October 8, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

good comments ray. ill go back over it again as i am sure just like ando’s comments there is more than onthe first read.

it isnt who starts the game it is who finishes and how they finish. if there is a guy who can make the last shot and it isnt jj then put the sob in. that is what is is going to take for the team to be a winner. until then the best four we have that is known in combination is jj, josh smith, chills and zaza. the problem is who brings it up at crunch time.

the other problem is who is the REAL lock down defender on this team? it isnt smoove though i recognize his help defense but who is the guy that can be put out there that simply shuts down the best option for the other team. much more relevant a question than horford vs. zaza. he** we will need them both on the floor for a hard 30 minutes a game so some of the time they will have to find a way to play together.

By Astro Joe

October 8, 2007 10:03 AM | Link to this

There is no doubt that one of either Smith-Marvin-Horford will need to go when all is said and done. But IMHO, I don’t think you do that this season. Here’s why…

Those guys don’t make enough salary in their rookie contracts to bring back comparable value. Smith’s value (as an example) clearly translates into a $10M or more player. I think he makes about $2M. In order to receive comparable value, you’d have to find a team willing to take back 3 players for 1. That likely reduces the number of teams you can deal with in half. Marvin’s value isn’t as high, but some teams may still view his potential as being in that ballpark.

I think we have to wait until we can do a S&T before we get that center everyone wants. I personally believe that there are enough unanswered questions about those 3 guys (Smith, Marvin or Horford) that we need at least 35-80 games to evaluate which guy to move. And if you go with the most likely nucleus that Ando detailed (1-4), then you almost have to have a defensive-minded center, because 1-4 are all looking to score 15+ points a game. So we’re talking about a Chandler or Dalembert type. (By the way, did anyone read some of the coverage of Darko this summer… he appears to have either mental or emotional problems… something’s not screwed in right).

Lastly, I still believe that an average coach can get this current team within a sniff of the playoffs this year. A title? No. But even if this team acquired Yao tomorrow, I’m not convinced that they have the personality, culture, intangibles or whatever to turn that “nice-roster-on-paper” into a winner. And that goes directly to the coaching staff. If I’m an owner, I want to see what dude can do with a Ford Taurus before I go off and buy this guy a 7-series BMW.

By ray

October 8, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this

Doc, you’re right about starting and finishing the games. And I didn’t think about who the lock-down defender is either. Without said defender, you have to have much better team defense. I would say that it would have to be either JJ or Speedy. However, it can’t be JJ if he’s being worn out on the offensive end like he has the last two years. And it can’t be Speedy if he can’t give us enough minutes and enough games.

Joe, fair enough. I don’t know enough about the salary/money parts of this. And we would need that long to get a better analysis of our swing forwards. I figure we’ll know something by the half-way mark, or at least we should. As for the coaching…it pretty much goes without saying what kind of feelings I have in that regard. I gather we feel pretty much the same, eh?

By roan st

October 8, 2007 10:49 AM | Link to this

Great analysis Ray. I couldn’t get better from the so called experts on ESPN. However, It looks like we are going to start the season with a lineup of speedy, jj, marvin, smith, and pachuila. I hope and pray that woodson will play the best lineup to maximize our chances of winning. And not force Marvin into the lineup just because he was a high draft choice. Focusing on saving face shouldn’t be the goal here, winning should be. But if Woodson is pressured into giving Marvin the nod without justification then I will be ready for a regime change. But I agree with Ray the lineup should be PG, jj, smith, horford, and pachuila until further notice. I left the Pg slot open because I don’t think that will be resolved until we see what happens in the preseason. I hope Law develops quickly because we already pretty much know what we will get from the rest of those guys.

By ILL-logical

October 8, 2007 11:13 AM | Link to this

After carefully considering the current roster and the likelyhood of any major changes, I have come up with a starting line up for the Hawks that, in my opinion, could produce a winning record as well as establish the foundation for future success.

(Caveat: I know that the current staff would never agree to this line up since they seem to joining the other(semi) professional franchises in town and selecting roster/ starters based on sociology and politics.)

So here goes nothing:

1. Soloman Jones His defense,mobility and agressiveness off set his lack of bulk. He will not get the vetern calls so ZaZa will not miss to many minutes but you can’t play Marvin and ZaZa at the same time and expect much interior defense from them.

2. Al Horford. The kid is tough and will bang, something that all of the team seems to recognize. Again, the showbusiness oriented officals will not give him the benifit of the doubt early on but he will earn his respect in short order. Plus he can score inside, another need this team must fill.

3. J.Smooth. Let the boy play his natural position instead of having to suffer from management’s politics. Just hope he isn’t Vick-timized because of his past transgresstions; the ATL can get A Jones and let you go ‘cause you ask for too much money.

4. JJ. No more be said except how much longer can he stand losing?

5. Calvin Claxton. Go mon go ,for at least 50 games. If up tempo is going to be their game then the Hawks need this guy to at least play 50 games.Let us now bow our heads.

This gives the Hawks a powerful second team that can score and play some D.Lorenzen, one of the point guards and one other player to be named later are expendable.

That’s my $.02

By HB Ando

October 8, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Joe, that’s what I alluded to earlier (with an acknowledgment that I’m NOT certain how it breaks down to the finer points), but I think that you’re right. It really can’t happen this season, until we can get to the rookie contract extensions.

So the natural conclusion is that THIS is what we have for the season. They will be undersized and some of these young guys will be put into some really bad match ups. And they’ll wear Horford down, and they’ll probably where JJ down, again.

But I still can’t see how they can go through the season with all these point guards. Neither Lue nor AJ is going to be happy playing 3rd string on a losing team, this late in their careers. Just as I can’t figure out where Shelden’s minutes are supposed to come from, I can’t figure out where Salim is supposed to get meaningful minutes, either.

So even if you get away from the talk about a BIG move, that includes someone like a Marvin, for that ever elusive big, you still have to believe that veteran parts, with no obvious roles on this team, like Lue or AJ, and like a Lo Wright, are best moved to anyone who covets any of them, for possibly a late first round pick, in next years’ draft.

The great thing about this front office is that you can confidently expect absolutely nothing and know you won’t be disappointed.

By Astro Joe

October 8, 2007 1:22 PM | Link to this

Ando, completely agree that one of the PGs ideally would go this month. Waiting until the 11th hour is likely the best move. Teams like the Heat may get desperate after seeing Jason Williams limp through pre-season and Smush look like a every-other-day NBA caliber PG. I recall that Riley wanted AJ last year, when he was buried on the Dallas bench and eating moon pies.

By mykhalc

October 8, 2007 1:35 PM | Link to this

BIG RAY, all good points, no doubt.

and for the sake of not rehashin’ it i’ll just say this…

ZAZA did not fair that well with JS on the court as you say because ZAZA did not do HIS part!!! the day ZAZA leads the team in rebounds is the day i’ll say that HE was the one that needed the help!! until then he IS NOT doin’ his FULL job!!

as SEKOU mentioned last year in one of his preseason articles, who was the guy that needed to show the most?? after throwin’ it out to us to blog about, SEKOU’s answer was ZAZA. well, he was right!!

listen, this team is far from perfect or balanced as we all know. and i definitely respect your opinion. and after all your points, for me, it comes down to an under-achievein’ BIG, who lost his startin’ job last year (did not reclaim it), who i think has a bkup mentality versus an inexperienced, smaller built 1st year player with desire and attitude to make a DIFFERENCE in the paint (and can play in the paint)!!! well for me i choose the latter. i choose change at the 5 spot!!

i’m sure we’ll all be watchin’ to see what all the combinations bring. but i’ll be lookin’ especially hard at the results when JS and HORFORD are teamed together at the 4 and 5. and i’m willingly to bet HORFORD keeps ZAZA on the bench a lot more than not because he WANTS it more, PRODUCES more and helps the team out more…IMHO

By HB Ando

October 8, 2007 1:58 PM | Link to this

Joe, just a tidbit on J Will: early reports out of Miami are that his knees are healthy for the first time in a couple of years and he’s looking GREAT. Quick as a cat and dropping dimes like it’s nobody’s business.

NOW, that could be hyperbole, as he has an expiring contract, and there’s still that rumor floating around that he and his paper could be packaged for Bibby, where Sac wants some cap flexibility and word is that Bibby and Artest just don’t have good chemistry.

But, regardless, there are some teams out there who could use veteran depth at the one (again, 67-year Armstrong got snagged by the Nets). And I definitely agree that right around the end of camp is when folks around the league will know where they’re short, roster-wise. I’d like to hope we could do the same thing with Lo Wright, because he just doesn’t bring anything to this team that I see translating to wins (can’t speak to whether he’s bringing value as a “mentor” to some of the younger bigs).

Last thing I forgot to say about Saturday’s scrimmage: some guy was chatting me up during most of the play, and, regarding our center situation, I said, “it’s a sad statement, when I look out of that floor, and the best center option I see is Alton Lister”.

Myc, I appreciate you’re sticking to your guns. And, statistically, I agree about your production argument. But it won’t equate to wins. Ray’s point is strong. Teams that go small usually play a front line of a 3 and two fours. You’re talking about playing a front line of 2 threes and a 4. Most talent? Yes. Capable of winning, on a semi-regular basis? Not a chance.

By mykhalc

October 8, 2007 2:22 PM | Link to this

ANDO, well this much we know…one of our arguments will hold true!!!LOL

By Astro Joe

October 8, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

It’s all relative. We didn’t have a “big time” center last season. We played 3 SFs (including Chill) for most of the 48 minutes dedicated to forwards last seson (Shelden was stuck on the bench about 60% of the season and played a lot of C during the last month). Our top 8 players all missed at least 10 games. And our offense was half-court based.

This season, it appears that we have a credible low-post option on offense in Horford. We should have improved PG play and depth. It appears we may try to take advantage of our speed and athleticism (and depth) by quickening the pace and all of our young players should be a little better than last year. We lost Ivey and Batista and picked up Law and Horford, all other players were here last season. Assuming we enjoy an average amount of injuries (as opposed to 2nd most in the league), what does that translate to in terms of incremental wins?

By LEA

October 8, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

I mean it’s obvious that Ray and Ando are the only guys on this board who know anything. If you have never played in the NBA or coached and you are just a fan, then your opinion of where certain players will play and how they will do goes in one ear and out the other…

By doc

October 8, 2007 8:00 PM | Link to this

gee lea wouldny be much of a blog if all we had to lisen to were ando and ray. look just ignore all the rest of us and consider it filler to keep it up and running while we have our own fun. now take the pretty curls and go back to star wars and let us ignorant floks play since it is obvious to you. also does it count when one of us agrres with them or even better if they come along behind us and states something we have just said? there is something obvious and it may be that you fail to see it.

not sure but did the dark side allign today and we al saw ando and aj agreeing? maybe we really need the season to start.

the team i want on the floor is the smurf team of lue at point, salim at sg, aj at 3, ac at 4 and jj at 5.