AJC > Sports > Hawks > Blog > Archives > 2007 > October > 02 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USWho’s running …?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
It sounds great in theory, the Hawks playing an up-tempo brand of basketball. But the first day of practice didn’t convince me - or several others on hand - that this Hawks team is capable of doing it and doing it well over the course of a season.
Sure, it’s just the first day. And the way Hawks coach Mike Woodson worked them in the first couple of hours had to tire out the guys in the very best shape. But the discipline required to run the way we’ve talked about around here requires a team to be capable of maintaining an accelerated pace for a full practice and then some.
Captain Joe Johnson was explaining the finer points of that theory to several of his younger teammates in the locker room long after practice ended. And having played in a system where they ran at an elite level in Phoenix, folks would be wise to listen to the man.
“It takes a commitment to conditioning that guys have to maintain not just when the season is going on but year round,” Johnson said. “It’s no joke. And if you’re not ready for it, you get sloppy out there.”
That’s no doubt the reason the Hawks returned early from summer vacation (or should there be another name for that when you “summer” starts in April every year?) to begin voluntary workouts.
Much like the Joe Johnson point guard experiment from two years ago, the Running Hawks plan is one that needs to be monitored closely over the next few weeks just to see if it works as well in live action as it does in theory.
A few other observations from the sideline:
Those concerns about Al Horford’s height limiting his ability to play center were for nothing. The kid is about the same height as Zaza Pachulia and plenty physical enough to handle himself in the paint. He should be fine.
During one late practice drill when the players were split into position groups on both ends of the floor (bigs on one end and guards and wings on the other) and demanded to finish at the rim Josh Smith showed off elevation that can be seen on very few teams in the league. Smith has always blown people away with his superior athleticism. But to think he’s jumping higher than before … ridiculous. And his improved moves around the basket were on display several times during a timed scrimmage drill.
Salim Stoudamire (knee) and Shelden Williams (hamstring) were both slowed a bit by injuries and held out of the action I was allowed to view. Stoudamire said he hyper extended his knee. Williams apparently tweaked his hamstring while running during voluntary workouts. Both are expected to be back in action this week.
The rookies both had their moments during their first training camp practice. Acie Law IV looked good running the floor in his match up against Speedy Claxton during the timed scrimmage action. And Al Horford, who turned an ankle but played through the pain, more than held his own inside - where the elbows were flying thanks to a rebounding drill.
Saturday’s scrimmage (open free to the public at noon at Philips Arena) might be the first chance any of us get to see all these guys going full tilt. Then and only then will I be able to get a better handle on who is making the best adjustment to this new style of play.
Comments
By mykhalc
October 3, 2007 1:32 PM | Link to this
DAN, also add in the fact that it would be smarter to put HORFORD out there with the more skilled/productive players on the team, the 1st unit. his learnin’ curve happens that much faster since the other cats on the floor will be doin’ their jobs. i think he’ll find his groove that much faster when he can be sorta ‘single-minded’ about the task at hand…bang and hit the boards!!!
the last thing we want is for another WOODSON and DIAW to somehow be created because HORFORD would somehow become UNSURE about his role. and better yet, we can use SHELDEN in that example!!! so to me, that has less chance of happenin’ if he is teamed with the first unit.
and about SPEEDY, i feel the exact same way. like i said earlier, i wish the cat a full recovery but he SHOULD NOT be in the equation until he’s healthy…PERIOD!!!
By Dan
October 3, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this
mykhalc if that were the starting five, then the Hawks are a team with serious depth. You have Zaza, Sheldon (better have improved), & Lorenzen providing inside help. Childress (I love this guy)can fill multiple roles. Plus, the supply of PG’s: Lue, Johnson, Salim.
I did not forget Speedy in the PG list. I just can’t stand that guy and know he will be hurt. No point even including him in the converstation. A crime he makes the big $$. What a waste.
Anyway, I have been a fan since ‘99. By far, the deepest team we have had since I have paid attention.
By mykhalc
October 3, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this
DAN, i’m right with ya on the startin’ 5!! like i said earlier, i really hope LAW wins the job hands-down. and the same goes for HORFORD.
ZAZA is just better suited in a bkup role…PERIOD. and he gives the team needed offense with that 2nd unit. the first team REALLY NEEDS a player like HORFORD…someone that’s willing and ready to bang. then add in the fact that he brings low post scorin’ skills!! that’s a nice mix!
no brainers and WOODSON…a mutually exclusive thing!!
By curious
October 3, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this
SmartGuy- Have you even wondered what Sekou thinks of you and the other guys on this blog?
By Dan
October 3, 2007 11:18 AM | Link to this
ray I agree…a team does not need to have a 7 footer in order to win. I have always felt that a 7 ft player who is not very good will always get in the team’s way. They are usually slow and commit stupid fouls.
Now, if you can get a quality 7 footer, take him, of course! There aren’t many out there, though.
Stinger right on! Zaza is what he is, a really good back up. Unfair that he has had to start and log heavy minutes. That should not be his role.
I would love to see a starting 5 of 1. Law 2. Joe 3. Marvin 4. Josh 5. Horford. Zaza off the bench backing up the 4 or 5 would be great! He can play in this league, obviously. Just shouldn’t have to start and be counted on for tons of points and boards.
By stinger
October 3, 2007 10:38 AM | Link to this
I’m tired of all the Zsa Zsa banging. He’s not perfect but at the price he’s a great value on this team. Does anybody else look at PER stats? It’s a measure of how a team performs when specific players are on the floor and Zsa Zsa rates out quite well. Middle of the pack among eastern conference centers and middle of the pack with the addition of Horford and Sheldon (hopefully improved) should be fine. Now the pg position is another story but at least we have lots of bodies to work with – I want Woody to quickly pull any pg underperforming during games and give the next guy a shot!
By smartguy
October 3, 2007 10:27 AM | Link to this
Astro Joe is right on. Who says that we have to play at 100 mph? In the past, we have played at 20-30 mph, and now the only choice is to jump right into warp speed? AJ said it perfect when he said there is more than one way to play up-tempo.
My main point is that our offense needs a major overhaul. A new system, a new pace, anything to put more points on the board.
And Sekou, I have been a big fan of yours in the past, and while others continue to kiss your butt, I am begginning to question you. First, you tried to “play” us over a bunch of junk. Then you began supporting Woody’s “only if we’re healthy” condition for success. Now, after one practice you’re ready to throw in the towel on the idea of playing a new style.
What do you people expect? That the team will magically be 100% in perfect stride after a few hours of a totally new system? Gosh, I can’t believe what idiot Woody is. How many times are we going to see that clueless look on his face early in the season?
By ray
October 3, 2007 9:04 AM | Link to this
Speaking of Lorenzen Wright, who the devil does he suppose he is? All that trash about hazing and teaching the rookie Horford. Dude better get his act together if he’s going to teach anybody any-d@mn thing.
He played so badly last season…I’m just disgusted with him. I sure hope Alton Lister overrides his useless butt and that’s who Horford listens to. Wright has a lot to show before he can shoot his mouth off. Being a veteran and all that…he just didn’t act like it. Is that how far off the wagon he’s fallen since L.A. and Memphis, or was the team chemistry and coaching just that bad?
I mean, he averaged as many fouls as he did rebounds! There’s no other way to say it than THAT SUCKS !!!! Couldn’t block a shot to save his dang life. That’s what our veteran big man leadership turned out to be. Didn’t do Sheldon a bit of good, I’ll tell you that. Here’s to hoping Lister changes all of this. I don’t want to hear another thing from Wright until he shows he can get significantly more rebounds than fouls and play defense. All he can teach Horford and Co. right now is how to nearly foul out in 15mpg. Freakin’ useless…
By ray
October 3, 2007 8:55 AM | Link to this
I think people are getting the wrong idea about Horford. He’s big, strong, and knows how to use his physical ability. Furthermore, he will learn to use it even better. This does not make him a stand-alone center. Perhaps he’s the prototypical PF. Fact is, the guy seems to have more natural talent for using that body. I believe he’s stronger than ZaZa, and instinctively/naturally knows how to use that height and strength better than Zaza.
On the flip side, I still fail to understand why people are so stuck this need for a 7-footer. If that’s the magical number for a legit and successful big guy, then why on earcth did we not keep Glyniadakis and John Edwards? Okay, I still think it was a managment fumble to not keep the big greek, but perhaps they saw something that the rest of us wouldn’t get a chance to see. But you get my point.
I think that teams like Detroit and perhaps Charlotte are examples of what is needed. In the case of Charlotte, your dominant post monster need not be your center. It can be your pf (Okafor). He just needs capable back-up and help that has reasonable size and strength (Brezec, when healthy) or perhaps Sean May (also when healthy). The point is, both need to be beasts of a sort. In the case of Detroit, they had not true centers (by definition I suppose) but two MEAN power forwards. Face it, neither Wallace is a true center. However, complimenting each other, there was no one who could consistently go into the paint on those guys, and they were as under-sized a tandem as there could be, especially if going by what people seem to think is undersized.
That’s what the Hawks need. You don’t have to have the stand-alone center. Two big, strong, mean power forwards will do. I see Horford providing one half of that tandem. I don’t yet see a second half of the tandem. Sheldon has the beef, and IS a TAD short at 6’7/6’8, but he has yet to show the heart or mean streak. Zaza hasn’t shown the ability period. He flops alot and doesn’t man-up toughly. He has the size, but one also has to wonder about his strength. Perhaps desire is truly the problem.
I don’t know what is wrong with Wright. He showed me NOTHING last year. Did the Clippers sap it out of him years ago? All I saw was fouls and grimaces. The guy couldn’t hold water if you gave him a bucket, much less hold the paint. Solomon looks muscular, but is still too skinny.
Batista had the size, strength, determination, and manned up big-time against Shaq. I know that coaching and management should always know more about a player than we do. I still find myself wondering what the heck happened there. Surely he deserved a spot on our roster and more playing time. Dude was TOUGH. Really wonder about that one…
By Dan
October 3, 2007 8:34 AM | Link to this
I don’t think this team has to be a “running team” in order to have success. They have enough guys that can handle the ball to be able to pick their spots to run.
The Hawks have always more than held their own against running teams. Last year, they beat the suns on the road and GS twice. They can play that style every so often, but not sure they have enough to sustain it for the entire season.
Horford is going to be a stud. I think he will be a pick we all like.
I can’t wait for this season to start! This team will go to the playoffs, if it can stay healthy. I have no doubts about that.
Less than a month to the opener.
By doc
October 3, 2007 6:37 AM | Link to this
honest agree, the bigs/bangers are important when it comes to the playoffs. it is the stumbling block for my suns and it did them in last year when they didnt go and get someone for lease in february. no amare is not a big or a banger but a very talented guy that creates match-up probs because of his many talents. however, when the best get to playing the best there areepeople that can go to him and neutralize him which cant be done during the regular season.
detroit had a smallish center in wallace who had the biggest banging heart there was. now if anyone thinks our baby hawks and its small front line has anyone like that on it or has the ability to run and gun non-stop like the suns step right up to the wager line in las vegas and lose you money. dont say i didnt warn you.
i like this team and the players so i want them to do well and i am a fan but they will have to show it before i expect or buy into it this time around. like samuel says we will have to create opportunity with the persure defense and rebound when we can create 3 on 3’s in a fast pacer game rather than set up offenses on either side of the court. the 24 second clock is our enemy, if we are allowint it to run down with each posesssion on defense or offfense we are playing into their strengths and not ours.
the bottom line against teams that have bigs we look to have no solution to it. the bucks, cavs, knicks, bobcats … all ran bigs at us last year and we couldnt stay with them playing match up to their bigs and woody didnt do anything that i could see to create match up probs to force the other team into a different look. sat there in those wonderful seats of jhan and watched the hawks go down and saw no victories last year at home. bucks, lakers, heat, cavs….etc. they just laid wait until we ran out of gas and did us in during the third quarter and beginning of the fourth. andy sat next to me and predicted it each time. even stotts was out coaching woody.
By Samuel
October 3, 2007 6:32 AM | Link to this
Flash,
The Hawks don’t have enough skilled players to play a PhX/GS style and rely on offense. You can’t be worried about injuries. They’re gonna happen anyways. One thing I agree with BK on is we have debt so we have to sell out defensively to win.
Other teams can afford to pace themselves defensively. We cannot.
The only time we have looked like a team capable of winning consistantly was last year at the beginning of the season. They must come out the same way.
By The Flash
October 3, 2007 1:36 AM | Link to this
Samuel I disagree. I think that the Hawks need only stay healthy. And, I think that to do that, this kick a** notion of dominating defense has to go. I think that all out efforts at defensive stops must be made strategically; that what is needed is to take away what is easy; to cause a guy to have to chose a shot he probably wouldn’t. Even if they make those for three quarters, that rim looks smaller in crunch time.
On the other end, what the Hawks must do is preclude teams from dictating to them. That, imo, they have the talent to do, if there is an organization, an approach, that not only takes account of their talents but also their collective IQs and ability to really enjoy the collective offensive game.
Less wear and tear on bodies. What cost them last year were injuries, early ones caused by I believe bobby-ball intensity on defense preached from the preseason, causing near identical hand injuries to two players, a foot injury to Chill, and later JJ’s whatever.
The league is a war of attrition. As I’ve stated, I believe that more and more you will see the day of stars playing hurt not happening. Management does not deserve it.
What do you think Stern is going to do to Zeke and his owner. Last year, Stern was unable to connect the dots and suspended Carmello 15 games and gave Zeke a slap on the wrist even though Zeke’s own words to Mello made it clear that the order had been given to put him down.
Key is developing an effective and entertaining style on offense, one that grows players appreciation of the nuances of the game (one can never stop growing in that regard), which will strengthen confidence and lead to better defensive decisions which will lead to more offensive miscues by other offenses.
Coaches like Edie Jordon who announce that training camp is going to be 90 percent about defense are either kidding us or themselves or are headed for trouble.
Once the Hawks start creating easy baskets effortlessly on offense, there will be far less concern here about giving up easy ones. The games will be won by how difficult the not so easy ones the defense forces the other team to make are, and how good a team is at making those. If somebody plays this team’s cards right, it could be very interesting and entertaining.
By KevinM
October 3, 2007 12:58 AM | Link to this
Since when did Woody become a coach who dictates the tempo in a game? How many times have we seen teams go right down the paint on us because we have no answer. Until the interior defense and rebounding improves, we will be the same Hawks. If we can get 3 big men playing together, (Smoove, Horford and SWilliams), we might have enough muscle to compete. JJ is right, but JJ, this is no Phoenix. You knew that when you signed here. Law vs. Speedy will not have anyone talking elite PGs. We hope for the best we what we have. Good Luck to Acie as he learns more from JKidd, Billups & Nash than Woody and BK.
By Samuel
October 2, 2007 10:48 PM | Link to this
Cuz,
I agree with JJ. In order for the Hawks to win any games they must be in better condition than every one of their opponents.
They will still be undersized on the frontline so the only way to neutralize that is to pressure and deny the ball. We will have to run off our pressure defense, period. If we allow teams to set up in their half court offense without intense defensive pressure, we’re gonna get kilt. We are not a good rebounding team so we won’t be able to run much off rebounds.
By clint
October 2, 2007 9:27 PM | Link to this
Astro joe has it right. What a novel idea to push the ball after getting a defensive rebound. The hawks have not done that during the Woody & Billy comedy show. The two joshes will take a rebound and push it the length of the floor, but none of our point guards have. Im not looking to be the suns of the southeast either, but an occasional easy bucket can turn a team that averages 90 into a team that averages 100 and that could get us into the playoffs. But hey woody will probably plod along as usual.
By honest_abe
October 2, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this
who am i kidding. you’re right who needs a true big man? i thought the entire reason for having a professional franchise was to win championships. last time i checked the last 8 of 9 championships have been won because of a dominant big man. detroit, the one exception, had a gigantic frontline to battle shaq. you need big men to either guard those guys or you need a legitimate big.
the era of dominant centers has passed us by. but the fact that the hawks have not a single soul that can guard the paint, transform medicore centers into the 2nd coming of wilt chamberlain. kendrick perkins comes to mind. here’s a below average center, who had a hard time getting consistent minutes out of doc rivers rotation and he goes for 12 points 12 rebs and a block in only 28 minutes. imagine if he played more. well he did later in the season and in 35 minutes he went for 15 points, 12 rebs and 2 blocks. let me make this easier for you.
tony battie: 15 points 8 rebounds. andrew bynum: 14 points 10 rebounds 1 block andrew bogut: 13 points and 8 rebounds
point being, that bigs who look clumsy and pitiful against the rest of the league all of sudden look quick, sharp and powerful against the smallish hawks. so while the nba might not be dominated by big men, big men seem to dominate the hawks.
By honest_abe
October 2, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this
who am i kidding. you’re right who needs a true big man? i thought the entire reason for having a professional franchise was to win championships. last time i checked the last 8 of 9 championships have been won because of a dominant big man. detroit, the one exception, had a gigantic frontline to battle shaq. you need big men to either guard those guys or you need a legitimate big.
the era of dominant centers has passed us by. but the fact that the hawks have not a single soul that can guard the paint, transform medicore centers into the 2nd coming of wilt chamberlain. kendrick perkins comes to mind. here’s a below average center, who had a hard time getting consistent minutes out of doc rivers rotation and he goes for 12 points 12 rebs and a block in only 28 minutes. imagine if he played more. well he did later in the season and in 35 minutes he went for 15 points, 12 rebs and 2 blocks. let me make this easier for you.
tony battie: 15 points 8 rebounds. andrew bynum: 14 points 10 rebounds 1 block andrew bogut: 13 points and 8 rebounds
point being, that bigs who look clumsy and pitiful against the rest of the league all of sudden look quick, sharp and powerful against the smallish hawks. so while the nba might not be dominated by big men, big men seem to dominate the hawks.
By Mike
October 2, 2007 8:34 PM | Link to this
Sek keep doing your thing Bro You just bring it and don’t how it’s receive. The true Blog ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz. Sorry hear about Salim and Sheldon, hopefully their injuries want linger through out the season. I’m not at all surprise by Harford play. He was a beast in college. What’s up with Salomon?
GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By mykhalc
October 2, 2007 6:58 PM | Link to this
SEKOU, nice recap…thanks!!
By mykhalc
October 2, 2007 6:53 PM | Link to this
J. Shuttlesworth, a voice of reason!! thank you!!!
By J. Shuttlesworth
October 2, 2007 5:54 PM | Link to this
I think everyone is working themselves up over nothing regarding the center situation. Outside of Dwight Howard, Shaq, and Tim Duncan, I can’t think of anyone that presents a huge match-up problem, but those guys are a problem for everyone.
The guys on the roster now can bang and rebound with anyone in the league. Plus, it’s not like there’s a bunch of 7-footers out there to be drafted or picked up.
It’s not like the league is run by Ewing, Olajuawon, Mutombo, Mourning and the like any more. It’s guys like Amare Stoudamire, Chris Bosh, Emeka Okafor, KG, Ben Wallace, Marcus Camby, etc. And the guys on the Hawks roster fit in with those guys.
I mean, what solution is everyone looking for? The 7-footer lust is how we landed Lorenzen Wright.
By Remembering Roundfield
October 2, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this
Thanks, Sekou for the news from the first official day of camp. A lot of us have been eagerly awaiting this day and are excited about the days to come. We may still be expecting too much, but somehow I think the Hawks will be much better at this style of play than we have any right to expect. Go Hawks!
By Astro Joe
October 2, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this
We don’t need to practice with an 8 second shot clock an imitate Phoenix to be a running team. We just need to push the heck out of the ball on every defensive rebound and that would be enough to begin the process. I hope Woody isn’t asking this team to go from addition to calculus to prove that his half-court brand of offense is a better option. Just having one guy run to half-court everytime a shot is in the air (to begin the break) would be a good start. Does Woody even know how to teach the fundamentals of running an untempo game (and again, the Phoenix model is by NO MEANS the only uptempo model ever created in NBA history. So let’s stop with the Phoenix nonsense and take some baby steps here). UGHHHH!
By honest_abe
October 2, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this
huh?
sorry tony i think my extended absence from this blog has made me even dumber than before. why don’t you try to explain what you just said one more time, because it just flew over my head.
people have had reservations about horford playing center because of his size. nobody has doubted his ability to play physically. zaza “tries” to play center at his height but i think he’s a more natural 4. so saying that horford who is the same height as zaza doesn’t mean squat when zaza himself can’t play center at his height. the hawks continue to underestimate the importance of having a true big man. they tried to alleviate the problem by drafting a 6’8 center. which failed by the way. so this time they went all out and drafted a 6’10 power forward. i guess he’s going to play center since the hawks best player currently plays the 4. genius.
the hawks will continue to get manhandled in the paint until they find themselves a true big man. end of story.
By Jay D
October 2, 2007 5:19 PM | Link to this
Horford also doesn’t have T-Rex arms like Zaza - which means he might block a few shots. Have you ever seen Zaza block a shot?
By Tony
October 2, 2007 5:14 PM | Link to this
comparing horford’s height to zazas and then saying everything is going to be alright is silly.
Dude, I don’t think Sekou was saying the comparison was because Horford’s height is the same as Zaza means he’ll be fine. His point was Horford’s physical style play, plus his height means he’ll be fine in the paint.
By honest_abe
October 2, 2007 5:02 PM | Link to this
in order to be a “running” team, not only do the players have to be in the best physical condition but they need a pg that has excellent open court vision and can really push the ball. the hawks have plenty of pg’s, i’m just concerned that none of them fit the bill as a pg that can really push the tempo…….
Those concerns about Al Horford’s height limiting his ability to play center were for nothing. The kid is about the same height as Zaza Pachulia and plenty physical enough to handle himself in the paint. He should be fine.
hmmmmm same height as zaza so he should be fine? zaza’s undersized and when he’s getting thrown around like a little rag doll it’s quite obvious. comparing horford’s height to zazas and then saying everything is going to be alright is silly.
a lot concerns me about this hawks team and justifiably so, but i do expect to see some improvement in the win column based on the young players maturing and the chemistry thats bound to develop when the same players play together for several seasons.
gooooo hawks
By LEA
October 2, 2007 4:36 PM | Link to this
So what do you really think of Smoove’s improvement?
Even though Joe is our best player. Smoove is the most important player to this team now and in the future. We saw how much we sucked when he wasn’t in the game. I also think that him and Horford being in the middle. Players will now think twice about going in there…