Hawks

By Astro Joe

October 1, 2007 11:53 AM | Link to this

Flash, nice, real nice.

By The Flash

October 1, 2007 11:35 AM | Link to this

Thought you guys might like to see first hand how your boy, Flash, sticks his nose under many tents:

*Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2007 3:02 PM To: ‘gregory.kane@baltun.com/’ Subject: Duke LAX, the Johnson Case: a Constructive Proposal: the Duke Trusts

Read your piece and thought it outstanding. Do not hear you say that the LAX case is not an outrage, just that there are so many, many more outrages committed, often against black folk, because of a lot of things, not the least of which is a lack of funds. Here is where I would hope someone with your profile might suggest things be taken:

A scholarly investigative piece, that you call for, looking into where the Duke fortune comes from and whether the Duke Trusts, which have done tremendous philanthropic work, have invested sufficiently to uplift the community from which their original corpus flowed, the black community of Durham. I have done a very little looking into things, and I say very little, but it seems that the Duke family were reasonably righteous people, did not themselves own slaves, but that is hardly the same as saying that the fortune did not depend on slave labor and than the obscene exploitation of black labor that ensued following the end of the great war. An interesting fact, the “technology” of exposing tobacco to sunlight to lighten the leaves and mellow the taste that was at the root of the Duke fortune, was, hello, discovered in Durham by a slave.

Anyway, rather than suggesting as many have that no one should be overly concerned for the plight of the Duke III because many young black men have and undoubtedly will suffer far worse because they lack the resources of the Duke III, why not try to use the platform of this case to expose the glaring moral obligation of the Duke Trusts to focus more on the needs of the community from which the fortune arose by, for example, funding a meaningful public defender program in Durham and the rest of NC, etc. Anyway, I’m sure that you could be far more creative and informed about such matters than I.

I hope that this stirs you to write on this subject, and that that, in turn, brings into focus the connection that the Duke fortune has on the feelings of divide that we all have read so much about between the Durham and Duke communities. My hope is that some real world progress can be made, and that cases like Mr.. Johnson’s, and these three LAX players, will actually lead to some positive change.

Should something in all of this strike a chord in you and you use your pen or other good offices in a manner such as I have suggested, that will be its own reward. In any event, all speed sir in the fine work that you do.*

BTW, Kane wrote back a nice note, said he thought the idea was super, but never heard from him. I got folks on a Duke board where I posted similar ideas looking into the sources of the Duke fortune and debating the “reparations” (their term) issue, but, like I said, nothwithstanding the facts no support for the idea.

Anyway, we all do what we can. I’m proud of my efforts there and thought I’d share some of that with you.

By The Flash

October 1, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this

Samuel I hear you too. You’d be interested to know that, once Durham reelected Nifong, I “got” that to the populace a case in which defendants get “railroaded” through the system, to one degree or another, is no biggie for them, that they resented being asked to vote on the basis of the LAX case when so many cases went under the radar.

I have been an advocate ever since for Duke to look to make a positive out of a negative by funding a serious public-defender program in Durham that would serve as a model throughout the US. The idea has gotten little traction.

Once the case was over, I have said that Duke should and would, one way or the other, pay the defense costs of all members on the LAX team. That seems to be happening.

Regrettably, my continued advocacy for Duke’s funding of a public defender program in Durham got no traction, except for one member of a cap and gown committee writing to tell me that he was offering my proposal to the committee with his endorsement. I have heard nothing since.

Really think that ending the war on drugs is a necessary first step to making the system workable. If drugs were made legal and sold on the legal market, the number of violent crimes would ease, the overcrowding of the criminal justice system and prisons would ease, and the public might well become much less fearful and open to expending the funds necessary to make the system work. It was like talking to the wall, however, at least where I was posting to Dukies.

By ray

September 30, 2007 8:30 PM | Link to this

Samuel, unfortunately you are too right. Such is often the “case”, so to speak.

Reese, well there it is. Hopes and Prayers is all we’ve got, bro’. As I said either, all the other stuff is retread. Same stuff we heard last year. Waiting for training camp and the meager scraps thrown to us from that. Ah well, such is the life.

By reese

September 30, 2007 5:07 PM | Link to this

Astro Joe, Cedric Simmons physical attributes are so common. He is basically an undersized big. If an undersized big doesn’t make a big impact, there are several more coming into the league each year.

By Astro Joe

September 30, 2007 4:27 PM | Link to this

Wow, I wonder what’s wrong with Cedric Simmons that the Hornets gave up on him after only 1 season. While he was very young and very unproven, you had to like his physical attributes at a minimum.

By reese

September 30, 2007 3:48 PM | Link to this

Billy Knight has completed phase 1 of his 15 year plan. He has jettisoned all of the players from the previous regime. Additionally, he has given a first time head coach the opportunity to learn how to manage a team, make in game adjustments, develop young players and deal with adversity from players, fans, media and ownership situation.

As he is progressing to phase 2, he has accumulated the players that he wants. He told us from the beginning that he wanted a team full of 6’7 thru 6’9” players and he has accomplished that mission.

My only problems are 1) He brought back 2 players (lorenzon, anthony johnson) from the previous regime who are not that talented and are not needed.

2) The team went from a balanced collection of players to an imbalanced collection of players. He had the opportunity to draft, sign or trade for a balanced team and made no effort to do so.

3)The players provided to the coach do not play the type of basketball in which the coach desires to implement. Therefore, there has been tension between player and coach. There has been players put into situations where they have been setup for failure because they are not the right size or do not have the proper skill set to play the position in which they were placed.

4)The 98/99 season consisted of 50 games and 31 wins by the hawks. We have been subjected to seasons under the knight/woodson regime in which we cannot get more than 31 wins in a 82 game season.

5) Situation 1 still exists. Situation 2 still exists. Situation 3 still exists. What makes Knight, Owners, coaches and some fans think that this will be a breakthrough season and not make situation 4 exists. All I can think of is HOPE and PRAYERS.

By Astro Joe

September 30, 2007 12:44 PM | Link to this

Sam, never mind, I got in. You should see my team registered. Let me know if you don’t.

By Astro Joe

September 30, 2007 12:34 PM | Link to this

Samuel, ID is 39462 and password is Hawks, right? The password is coming up as invalid… maybe you already have 12 players?

By Samuel

September 30, 2007 10:42 AM | Link to this

Stro,

Are you in? I look forward to spankin that as_ again. I know it’s Fantasy but I love it. Beating all these experts.

Ray and Flash. Law men. I have had some dealings with the Justice system in America myself. Back in Mississippi, I used to visit the jails and prisons and just talk to people. It really opened my eyes to how the poor and powerless are taken advantage of.

You’re right Doc in that many poor people put themselves in bad positions but our Justice system sucks when it comes to equal justice for all.

I handled two cases in particular that come to mind.

One, a young cat was in jail for capital murder. Dude had been locked up for months without any type of hearing or anything. They had no evidence at all. Guy was getting seriously railroaded.They were just using the county jail as a prison. His so-called public defender hadn’t even contacted the guy.

Finally, after putting presure on the Good Ole boys, guy got a trial, after about a year in county jail. On the stand the lead detective admitted to planting an informant in the guy’s cell to get some confession. The cop didn’t even know it was against the law. The case was dropped. The DA was seriously embarressed.

Bad thing about it. There are thousands of cases like this all across America.

In another case, I helped a mother who’s son was in Parchment State Prison and was about to be executed for murder eventhough he was legally retarded and under-age at the time. Not to mention there were serious doubts about his guilt anyway.

I was working with groups all over the world trying to keep this guy from being executed. I met with the Governor a couple of times and finally he pardoned the guy just hours before the scheduled execution. I was the guy’s spiritual advisor and was due to be the last person to see him before his execution.

That blew my mind.

Flash. This war on drugs is nothing more than an excuse to lock up the poor. There are thousands of guys in jail for simple weed possession, while the doctor’s sons and the preacher’s sons get sent on their way. The parole offices are like McDonald’s drive thru’s on Friday with people paying fines. It’s rediculious. Hell, in college we used to buy weed from the head law man on campus.

There. That’s my rant for the week.

Hey, did anybody catch Lebron on Saturday night live. I’ll give him a C.

By ray

September 30, 2007 1:16 AM | Link to this

Flash, I get you. Like I said, your response was both enlightening and just….so clear. The communication has been effective. Glad you have had some truly positive experiences with enforcement. Sounds like you’ve been having more fun than I have. Although working with Feds is a nearly daily experience for me. Mostly U.S. Customs. On occasion, FBI, secret service once or twice (for the G8 conference last time at Sea Island). No real claims to fame. I’ll bet you have some stories I’d love to hear.

Doc, now when have I threatened to put the cuffs on anyone here? Heh, heh…if ever I had to step outside of my jurisdiction though, it would probably be for the usual domestic violence: Ando and Astro Joe, heh heh!

Speaking of which:

Ando, did you say hard-on? You said hard-on! I’m so embarrassed for you that you said that! Heh, heh! Does that sound familiar, ol’ buddy? Seems to me that we had a similar conversation LAST year like this, only it was me saying “blue-vein throbber.” Remember? Ah, what’s in a name, eh?

By The Flash

September 29, 2007 11:43 PM | Link to this

ray It wasn’t so much an apology as an acknowledgment prompted by your words that brought be up short, but in a good way, if you know what I mean. Did not feel you were angry; felt your truth and in a moment the origins of the “rant” came to me. If felt real to connect to an authentic, informative, and stunning communication.

Couple of things. I got a huge kick out of the law enforcement guys I worked with while an SAUSA (special assistant US attorney. None more than a couple of DC Drug Detectives who had an informant who was wired to dealers in a club in a high end DC night life area. They had to bust the guys across in Va where they lived because they feared they were on to their snitch. Got the DEA involved and we (I) caught the case.

Unbelieveable working with those guys. I mean sitting in their squad room with the young babe when she got sassy with me was like being on TV.

There was a fight in court over seizure of two cars (porche and a beemer). The issue came down to the detective’s testimony about how they had the apartment complex staked out, one of the defendants started opening the porche, spoted him, when he called on the radio for everyone to close in, the radio failed and he gave chase. Defense counsel tried to crack the story about his client opening the door to the car, in which there was a pound of coke.

Tried to crack the story by asking the cop if the defendant had keys in his hand when the cop finally ran him down. The cop responded, “Let me tell you something, I have burried two partners. You want to know whether he had keys in his hand. The only thing in my mind was whether, if the guy stopped and turned, was I gonna have to kill him. If he had something in his hand, he was dead!

It was motions day and federal court in Alexdria was not a place at least back then where many violent crimes were tried, and believe me, they never saw guys like this. All these lawyers sitting there, their eyes buggin out, including mine. NBR, Ray, I can assure you.

BTW, the Secret Service gave me a special award for my nvestigation and prosecution of the first credit card fraud case ever handled by them. I can up with some exceedingly clever means of investigation and set the model for how to prove merchant complicity in multiple frauds with only two witnesses, when more than 80 different cards from multiple issuers were involved. My finest moment as a lawyer.

I hate the war on drugs, because I think that is unwinable and has just lead to a country-wide group of criminal enterprises with countless costs. I really think thaat the way to go is legalization and spending the money spend on prosecution and incarceration into rehab and education.

By ray

September 29, 2007 9:41 PM | Link to this

Flash,

I am glad you saw my comments for what I meant them to be: merely an exception to what is unfortunately often the rule. My situation and experiences are decidedly in the minority in the subject of the aforementioned breed of dog. I worried somewhat that you might take my humble (but somewhat impassioned) words as an attack or a salty retort. I am very glad that you did not, for I have a good deal of respect for you. I’ll bet it’s not often that one who practices law gets that from one who practices law enforcement (or vice versa)! And yet, there it is…But anyway, that is one reason why I had to give you some props in the preceeding post.

I don’t at all blame you for your feelings, particularly in the city with children. I actually agree, because as I said before, my position is one that is very much in the minority. I live in a subdivision, so I can relate somewhat (although I have a privacy-fenced back yard). In most cases, people acquire those dogs for all the wrong reasons. They figure it’s a source of intimidation and/or protection. I see dogs as pets: companions and early warning systems, but not weapons (only in the gravest extreme: like an elderly person or child who cannot defend themselves against an emminent attack). Let a man do any fighting himself. But that’s a whole ‘nother rant.

Thankyou for the complimentary words, by the way. I never considered myself a master of prose, but do have some talent. I do believe I’m a far better (and more effective)speaker than writer. That’s what everyone I know tells me anyway…I always enjoy reading what you write, whether I agree with it or not.

I appreciate the apology. It wasn’t really necessary, as you had done no harm. Perhaps I let my disappointment seem like I was taking offense, when really I was just seeking to display an exception to a rule. Perhaps I then owe YOU an apology. Understanding my point of view, and making the effort to do so was plenty enough, and goes a long way in the lines of effective communication, which you undoubtedly know. That, and I better understand your view now as it is. I see that we are closer in viewpoint than I originally thought. A lot closer.

But enough of the dogs, eh? How about those two articles that Sekou did well on, but are undeniably the result of the Hawks organizational retread, cliched speech?

By Astro Joe

September 29, 2007 8:19 PM | Link to this

Ando, you’re continued avoidance is masterful. You tell me what you didn’t say, while never saying what you did say.

Anyway, sure I’ll join Sam’s league. And if I lose again, I’ll have the same reaction as when I lost last year. Utter indifference. It’s a game. I’m fortunate to know when to get bent out of shape about things in life. And it’s usually not about anonymous bloggers nor games that start with the word “fantasy”. I hope you win the championship in this year’s fantasy game. Clearly, that stuff is important to you. Good luck and I hope you enjoy the prom this year, too!

Sekou, nice finish to the epic series of interviews. Proof is in the pudding. And with the powerful Western Conference teams descending on us early this season, we could potentially be better but with a worse record (at least early). Leadership will be more critical than ever and that is still a possible missing link in the whole eqaution. Ready for this thing to start up.

By doc

September 29, 2007 4:01 PM | Link to this

flash meant to say if it isnt mainstream and you have another , most viewpoint you dont seem to hesitiate to offer a different view. no i dont desire to pigeon-hole anything. not labeling so much as maybe clarifying which is ongoing and flexible to the moment.

By newkid

September 29, 2007 3:36 PM | Link to this

Sekou, thanks for today’s tidbits from Mr. Knight. Seems he and the owners (well, perhaps with the exception of one) are convinced that he’s assembled the talent pool he sought from the very outset. I take from this he’s going to the ‘07 - ‘08 dance with this group intact (i.e., I don’t expect him to make any of those post-30 day moves about which I’ve asked).

It also seems Mr. Knight thinks THE question is can this group of PLAYERS make it happen starting this year. I rather wonder if it’s not proper for Mr. Knight to add “…and coach…” to his question. I hope he (Mr. Knight) doesn’t find himself - at the end of the season - having done a brilliant job of gathering all the ingredients for a stupendous meal only to have injudiciously stuck with a ‘chef from hell’ to prepare the courses. My digestive juices are fully engaged, and I for one will be quite disappointed if, when we seat ourselves at the table, we’re presented with a pig’s meal.

Go Hawks!

By The Flash

September 29, 2007 12:02 PM | Link to this

Doc Not how I would define myself or the positions that I take, albeit that they are definitely outside the expert media prevailing views. When I agree with those views, I have nothing to add and don’t.

I fear you revert to the western medicine, “it must have a name and I must name it” mentality that you have been trying to escape. We all have our regressions. NBL.

By Samuel

September 29, 2007 8:43 AM | Link to this

Abe is In

Hillary 2008. What’s up.

By doc

September 29, 2007 12:46 AM | Link to this

ok samuel i see the glove is on the floor. just dont know if i can stand another year of looking up at your butt my friend, get up at 6 as it is now and know that isnt early enough to keep up with you.

flash, know you are an original thinker and look at all angles looking for the complete hologram and dont ever go with the mainstream thought to be safe. kind ot understand it myself. good wekend bro.

By The Flash

September 29, 2007 12:34 AM | Link to this

Doc You and I are of an ancient lineage of healers. We will meet in this lifetime or the next, and I am sure have stood together in a past one.

Steven and I hit it off when we were in college. He was a year behind me. You know how those things are, we had great fun and enjoyed eachother but both had other people with whom we were close. Belkin had Joan and I had my boyz.

I saw Belkin fifteen years later not knowing what to expect. Remarkable, extraordinary, is all I can say, having nothing whatever to do with business or broads (I hope Joan don’t read this) or even sports. Remarkable. Very evolved soul.

Many “causes”, issues strike me as being misunderstood and misrepresented by a one-sided media. When they are in my wheelhouse, I jump in. vick’s situation, T.O.’s, Larry Brown’s, to name a few.

Injury in sports and constructive methods on changing concepts among athletes about their need to learn to care for their bodies about issues that they now put in the hands of “experts” with way too limited vision is a biggie for me now. The injury part has been big for a long time, it is evolving as I do.

My father was a global thinker who beginning in his 40s built a very large beverage business in NY in the 60s/early 70s. He lost control when let us call them folks with greater powers overtook him. He was also as a young man very active and successful in progressive politics,

As he built that beverage business (my grandfather was one of NY’s original soda men but my father left the family business and took off), he used it as a vehicle for good. He helped many, many people who had touched his life, and still others that had not, but whom came across his path.

Listening to the evening news or interview shows with him was a complete gas. He’d rip prevailing views apart, and usually proved correct. The accorn does not fall far from the tree.

Incidently, my old man, when he was a teenager, was in a secret society of mayans (spelling)—you know, the extraordinarily evolved society in ancient Mexico. The rest of the members were much older intellectuals in NY. I suppose I get my spiritual roots from him too.

Hope that helps.

By Samuel

September 29, 2007 12:12 AM | Link to this

Guys,

We got 4 teams so far. Tupelo Huslaz(yours truely), HB’s MadHopz(Ando), Mavid G (Mavid), and some new cat named Bison (Tyrone P). Don’t know you Tyrone but glad you were man enough to challenge the big boys.

Doc, I aint buying that Boston excuse. They got the net up there. It don’t take but 10-20 minutes a day to set your roster. Come on man, I like to take on the best. If the draft time don’t suite ya, we’ll change it if necessary.

Come on guys, I know yall aint SCARED

By doc

September 28, 2007 11:13 PM | Link to this

it is cool and you know it mykh.

By mykhalc

September 28, 2007 10:32 PM | Link to this

DOC, hit and run…i like that!!LOL just did not take it any futher ‘cause we already had some that were takin’ issue that we were off-topic. i’ll hit you up with an email.

By Steve T

September 28, 2007 9:04 PM | Link to this

You guys have a lot of faith in a PG. I do not think that a PG would have made the hawks that much better. In fact, I think Josh Smith proved what we need. We need a bigger version of Josh Smith. How much better would the hawks be if we have a player that was 6-11 with Josh’s skills.

By doc

September 28, 2007 8:35 PM | Link to this

flash i tried to warn you that the sheriff would come to your driveway to cart you off if you didnt apologize. glad to see you did. after all the guy has swole to 290 and carries heat, my you know how to pick your adversaries.

speaking of hit and run adversaries, heh heh; now myhk, what is not the truth? i cant wait to get you at one of ando’s watering holes to call me a liar to my face. well if we can concentrate with all the wares on display that is. didnt realize anything was twisted and thought most of what i said was pretty well documented but we can drop it there until we see each other in person. i am sure none of the other guys really need to hear anything more and really it is more of a chance to talk social relativism and a chance to hear others perspectives. if nothing else, i will take the defense of it is the liars table. i will say it was not to provoke anyone or anything.

flash, though you profess to like the little guys and defend them i am not sure how either belkin or vick met that criteria and these issues have you digging deep in their hot defense. maybe there is something archetypal there that is being expressed from the deep unconcious mind since the emotions are so strong. though i have found some sense of perspective and understanding of belkins side and have expressed that he isnt all bad i have yet to hear a similar response from you for the other beat up portion of the broken atlanta spirit. is it the archetype of humble beginnings of belkin and vick to ascension to having the polemic society trying to bring it down with hypocrisy?

we do need to sit down and talk healing some day. the feldenkreis stuff intrigues since some of if not all it bypasses the conscious to get deeper into the unconscious to achieve healing beyond the belief held mind just as acupuncture does. esoteric healing and at what level?

By HB Ando

September 28, 2007 6:31 PM | Link to this

Joe, if you can find this direct quote, in anything I’ve ever posted, I’ll never mention the Johnson acquisition again:

“If BK was directed to complete JJ trade by ownership”

‘Cause I’m pretty sure that’s not what I said. It’s a classic A’hole Joe paraphrase (which is almost as classic, and predictable, as you pretending to yawn, when you’re outgunned). But it’s not what I said.

And since all the reasonable people here have already heard what I actually said, more than enough, I don’t see the point in playing semantic footsy with you you.

This quote is good enough to get you a management position with the Hawks, if not an ownership share:

“Eventually, I would fire BK, but only after seeing what a real coach can do with the assembled talent. There is no doubt in my mind which move is the most critical. Some say Woody gets an incomplete grade because he has been dealt a bad hand. I say BK gets an incomplete because he handed the keys of this race car to an incompetent driver. I have no idea if this car can compete in a race, because the driver lacks basic skills.”

Unless I’m missing something, what you’ve just said is, “I can’t fire/blame the GM until I get a good coach. And I can’t fire/blame the coach unless he’s given a fair roster to lead (by the GM???!!!).”

So let’s add that to your long-stranding position that it’s all the owners’ fault. So, essentially, from the Astro perspective, no one is to blame, and no one is accountable, because all the possible parties can equally point the finger of blame at someone else.

That’s freakin’ genius, Joe. So they all should stay because YOU can’t differentiate whose most culpable? If I want a waffle, I’ll go to the waffle house.

How about they all go??

BK’s draft decisions have been daft. And they aren’t tied to economics of the ownership battle. Woody, handed an imbalanced roster, has shown no proclivity for making in-game decisions to optimize what he does have. There’s no upside in making one a victim and the other the lone villain. But letting one off the hook, to argue that the other is held harmless, is either stupid, or reeks of a personal agenda (gee, let’s guess which one best applies to Joe).

So, Joe, as we head into camp, how many wins will this team have? Let’s get over the re-hash and talk about now. Give me a number. I’ll give you one back. We’ll see who’s closer to the truth.

And join Sam’s league, so you can get your lame a* kicked again…….

By KevinM

September 28, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this

Why Sekou is this blog upside down? Are we not supposed to follow the trail of conversation or do you just want us to figure it out like we’re trying to understand what BK does? I feel better now and hope we get sanity back to the Hawks blog.

By newkid

September 28, 2007 4:40 PM | Link to this

While I was getting my treadmill work in this morning I heard a bit on ESPN from one our young women goalies about how disturbed she was at having not been selected by the coach to lead us on the pitch against Brazil. We lost; she’s convinced she could have done a better job than the other goalie; and she wasn’t very bashful about making her contrary views known. Upon hearing this I thought about the on-court fiasco between Josh and Woody last year, the DeAngelo Hall vs coaches caper this past Sunday, and several others. I thought: my gosh, where and how should one draw the line on this sort of thing so as to protect ‘team chemistry’ without undermining the passion of the athletes and coaches? Then a few minutes ago a buddy sent this link to me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?page=RTP

After reading it I thought: this seems an especially wise use of the rookies’ time. Why wouldn’t such a forum be used to address some of the ‘me first, team second’ sort of issues that crop up from time to time?

Anyways, I chanced that some of you guys might find it interesting.

By Astro Joe

September 28, 2007 4:14 PM | Link to this

Ando, you should run for office because you avoid answering questions with the best of them. If BK was directed to complete JJ trade by ownership, then why do you hold him responsible for the assets involved in JJ trade? I think this is the 3rd time I have askd the question. Your responses are typically everything other than a direct response… example shown below. I happen to believe what you heard during that session with season-ticketholders. I just can’t draw a line from that “insider information” (which I assume is factual) and your continued outrage over the details of the trade.

Eventually, I would fire BK, but only after seeing what a real coach can do with the assembled talent. There is no doubt in my mind which move is the most critical. Some say Woody gets an incomplete grade because he has been dealt a bad hand. I say BK gets an incomplete because he handed the keys of this race car to an incompetent driver. I have no idea if this car can compete in a race, because the driver lacks basic skills.

I won’t go back and forth with you this season. Heck, I’m already bored. But I do admire your smoke-screen skills and your refusal to let facts stand in the way of your opinion (relative to the JJ trade).

By HB Ando

September 28, 2007 2:15 PM | Link to this

Joe, is it your position that Billy Knight is a quality general manager, and should continue in that role, for the Atlanta Hawks, for the foreseeable future?

If it is, then you’re responses to me are understandable.

If it is not, then they’re nothing more than petty, hair-splitting retorts, with no other logical purpose than to take me on personally. Because it doesn’t matter how you view his failures, collectively. And anyone knows that once one path is chosen, it creates unique consequences, that can only be taken in the context of the original choice (as in the idea that if Billy had taken Paul or Williams, then we may not have been picking 5th, overall, when we took Shelden). You’ve twisted my encounter with one of the owners, and his statements related to the Johnson deal, again. But I’ll always have the fact that another blog member was standing next to me, and heard the exact same thing. Suggesting I’m a liar sounds as weak as is ever did, as it’s simply not a term anyone, anywhere, ever, has applied to me. Do I sound like someone who’s afraid to state an uncomfortable truth, or stand behind an unpopular opinion?

But the bottom line is you either believe Billy Knight has done a good job, and should remain the GM (and so far as I can tell, only Tyger and Steve T, who I still believe works for the Hawks, have consistently maintained that position for the last 3 years), or you don’t.

To quibble, and attempt to discredit someone’s personal opinions on what makes him such an utter failure, just seems small. If I don’t agree with your opinion on an issue, I’ll tell you why. And when I do agree, I say, “good point, Joe” (though I can’t ever remember you giving me credit for a sound opinion in 3 years). But I can’t ever recall taking you to task on something I agree with, like how bad a GM Billy Knight is. And I certainly don’t view Knight’s performance, and impact on the team, as mutually exclusive of Woody’s weaknesses.

So, I guess we go into this season, as in season’s past, with you exhibiting a chip on your shoulder and a personal HB Ando hard-on that you never seem to be able to cool off.

Should be fun……..

Sam, I’m heading to Yahoo right now, to sign up. Hopefully, we’ll get a good turn out of regulars, as in seasons’ past.

By mykhalc

September 28, 2007 2:01 PM | Link to this

FLASH, BIG RAY, VERY NICE posts to the both of you. WELL SAID!! DOC, i hear where you are comin’ from too. tho i do think some of the facts you alluded to regardin’ the VICK case were not quite accurate. but that’s really neither here nor there at this point.

this is what i do want to say. i really appreciate cats like DOC, FLASH, BIG RAY, SAMUEL, and i’m sure there are others that post here that are in the ‘service’ of service and helpin’ out the ‘little’ people. and i applaud you guys!!!! BIG KUDOS!! to para-phrase RAY in one of his last posts to FLASH, ‘it opens up your eyes and views’ to exactly who we’ve had the pleasure of meetin’ on this HAWKS blog.

so for me, i like it when our HAWKS discussions ‘sometimes’ take a detour. i helps me appreciate this spot that much more and the people that come here as well.

By The Flash

September 28, 2007 1:00 PM | Link to this

Ray Far and away the best thing you have written, and that, my man, is saying something. Far and away the best piece I have seen on the subject, period, and I have seen a lot.

I have often write on other blogs. On one, the common thread abour Vick is that he is akin to John Malvo (the sniper killer who terrorized DC several years ago) and should be treated accordingly. It is in that context that I began trying to punch some of the most ardent posters in the nose with my “rant” on pits. You know, some guy is cuttin your legs, pushing you while you’re in the air, you go up for a rebound, come down while turning and your elbow just happens to be swinging with your body and just happens to hit the guy smack in the jaw.

Sorry to bring that here. That said, in the city, you cannot avoid people. I live in a row house in DC; the houses on either side have long been rentals, one usually to younger,20/early 30 something guys.

When my kids were young, one group, one of the guys, had a pit. Sorry, that was not happening. I called the rental agent and let them know that the pit was there, that I had two kids, and really did not need to say more.

I do not believe that the risk that owners will not be people of your talent and heart justifies permitting pits in cities. I don’t.

Sorry for the rant; much respect and my apologies for the over generalization and misleading over-the-top statements.

BTW, I’ve never owned a dog but I do very much enjoy them. I am a skilled body worker (ask Doc about the different modalities) and whenever I sit next to a dog, I work on their necks, shoulders, hind quarters in terrific ways with subtle movements of my fingers.

No one looking would know anything is going on. It’s just between me and my friend. Later.

By Good News...

September 28, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this

I thought the same, probably tired legs and trying to create a shot while being double teamed.

It just seemed that the fadeaway was always his shot of choice in the last seconds. I just don’t remember many game winners going in. Would like it if he could take it to the rack and draw a foul but he is not in that league yet with the officials.

That may change this year with the officials under the microscope. To me that is going to be something that may really change the game this year is how the officials call it. Are they still going to give superstar treatment or is the game going to be called more consistent.(and not consistent to be inconsistent)

By Dap

September 28, 2007 10:51 AM | Link to this

SEKOU;

Please write something else about the HAWKS, this current blog and discussion is useless to HAWKS fans.

By doc

September 28, 2007 9:58 AM | Link to this

good news, yes the fall away didnt work. i attributed it to tired legs or poor shot selection. wonder what his shot percentage was on that shot?

By Good News...

September 28, 2007 9:22 AM | Link to this

Can I not read anything anymore that doesn’t go to the dogs….

“matter of law vs. a matter of philosophical and/or moral debate.”

Well said! To bad most people do not seem to understand this around here.

When does the season start. We so need a topic around here. Has anyone seen JJ? I would hope with the improvement of him playing with the US team he showed last year, that he could take it to whole other level again this year. (more consistent fall away that he misses a lot at the end of the game)

By Willie Coyote

September 28, 2007 8:03 AM | Link to this

Thanks Flash (yesterday’s posting activity). I am just so tired of seeing the way America goes after certain people but then pities and “understands” others. We really need to drop this whole Vick, OJ, etc thing and focus on important issues.

Oh well, back to basketball. Can’t wait to hear some updates from training camp. I’m also glad to hear that precious little progress has been made in the ownership feud; I’ll take precious little over the nothing we had been getting in that regard.

By ray

September 28, 2007 7:48 AM | Link to this

Flash, one omission. In my first post to you, I meant to say that Vick didn’t say that he didn’t know the dogfighting was illegal, not that he didn’t know it was wrong. The difference of course, is a matter of law vs. a matter of philosophical and/or moral debate.

By ray

September 28, 2007 7:45 AM | Link to this

Flash, let me begin by saying that while I like pets and animals in general, I am no die hard “pet lover.” I don’t like PETA or anybody else who feels that animals and humans are equal in all ways. The vilest human is still a human. A dog is a dog, and while there are people that I absolutely detest, I refuse to rank an animal’s life above that of a human. If you ask me, doing so is the very definition of inhumane. Understand something right off the bat: I am prepared to take the life of my own pets in a quick and decisive manner (no torturous methods) if they attacked and hurt/killed a human under any circumstances that didn’t involve extreme or severe provocation wherein the animal had no choice but to defend itself. I hold human life in the highest regard.

Having said that, I am disappointed in some of the comments you made. Speaking in “absolutes” as I call them, is not only often imprudent, but sometimes downright dangerous. I do not fully presume to know what experience you have with animals in general, dogs to be specific, or pit bulls to be technical and nitpicky. However, your statements lead me to suspect (at the risk of being presumptuous) that your experience in this area is rather limited. Mine is somewhat extensive. I grew up having a dog around most of the time. I have owned two pitbulls, neither of which has ever been a problem with people. The first I still have, the second I had to give away because three dogs is too much for my wife and I to keep up with. Both have been very friendly toward humans, children and adults. Like most dogs, they can sense a person who has malicious intent. However, they know that this is something that I deal with, not them. Neither has ever tried to bite or attack anyone. I do not tolerate such behavior from ANY animal. The Mastiff is no exception. My dogs are friendly but I have trained them to be a bit more reserved Why? Because even though the intent is friendly, nobody wants a dog to put his two front paws on their chest or shoulders and look them in the eye (our mastiff is large enough to do this). And the average person who is ignorant of the situation assumes a pit bull is going to attack on sight.

I am well aware of original intentions and tasks for pit bull terriers. I did my homework, just like I would before buying a car. My brother-in-law and his wife run a home-based rescue service up north where abused or abandoned pits are nursed back to health, trained, and either kept or given to approved, responsible people. I have seen examples of violent pits, and violent dogs of other breeds. I have seen many examples of docile and friendly pits (as well as other breeds). I have years of experience in this regard, both personal, and that of people I am close to, as well as others. What is your experience in this field? I only ask because you speak in absolutes and I have seen many cases that prove you wrong.

But you must understand the point I am trying to make. My experiences haven’t taught me that all pits are essentially good dogs to have. They teach me that NOT ALL PITBULLS are mad, bad, destructive animals. Some are, some aren’t. They are able to do what some people make them do simply because of their superior athletic ability. Trust me, if the high-strung poodle, the hyper chihuahuha, or the even more hyper Jack Russell terrier had the size and strength of a pit bull terrier, they would be accused of the same things. However, knowing what I know, I would not match even a pit bull against a mastiff (which are known for their even and gentle temperament). If you know what Mastiffs have been used for in the old, old days you’d know exactly what I meant. It is a simple matter of knowing what the breed or particular example is capable of, and also knowing of what breeding the dog has come from. I could go on here, but won’t.

By the way, an animal that is dangerous in the city is also dangerous in the country. Or vice versa. So the statment you made about “being too dangerous in the city” sounds silly to me. It is not the location that makes the animal dangerous. If it’s going to bite a person, it will bite any person anywhere. Period. In the end, I know you will think what you want. Everybody does, no? Disagreeing is one thing. Telling someone that a pitbull can’t be a good pet is simply wrong. How could you even prove it, especially when I have proof of at least two exceptions based on my own experiences? Telling such a pet owner like me or anyone else that this is “bull” is the same as calling me a liar. And it’s disrespectful. But if that is the path you choose…

By ray

September 28, 2007 6:57 AM | Link to this

Flash,

I admire your efforts and knowledge of the legal system, as well as the politics involved. I could never know what you do, not being involved the way you are. Some of what you said has opened my eyes to things not thought of before and changed my stance somewhat.

I don’t pity Vick in the sense that he knew the law and the penalty it carried. Notice that he didn’t say that he didn’t think the dog-fighting/killing was wrong. He simply denied at first that he knew about it, alluding to the fact that he knew it was illegal. If you know something is illegal, you don’t venture down that path, plain and simple. To do so is to risk the consequences and punitive measures in place if/when you are caught.

Second, I don’t like dog-fighting, but recognize it as something that is done. Put that right up there with every other illegal activity people engage themselves in…knowingly. As to whether or not it should be labled a felony, I see your point. Really, I do. I don’t understand fully why it’s a felony. Your words have opened my eyes to new views. However, philosophical viewpoints do not excuse on from engaging in illegal activity, regardless of whether or not the penalty is too stiff. So, while I tend to lean your way as far as what is being done to Vick, I cannot at the same time say that he did things unknowingly or without knowledge of penalty as set by existing law. I do understand your points, though. You are saying that what Vick has done is not the point. But please read my next post to you…

By Samuel

September 28, 2007 6:34 AM | Link to this

Mavid,

Not sure why you couldn’t get in. I just started it last night so maybe it takes a day or two. I checked the ID number and 39462 is good. Try again. If anybody else is having problems, let me know.

By wordsmithtom

September 28, 2007 5:51 AM | Link to this

Newkid,

Add Dek Mutumbo to your list. See what he has done with his NBA money.

http://www.dmf.org/

Saw him interviewed by CNBC yesterday.

By mavid

September 27, 2007 11:28 PM | Link to this

Haven’t had time to post much lately, working way too much.

Im looking forward to some reports from training camp; things have gotten boring this offseason.

I will be getting league pass this year, as I think this team will at least be COMPETITIVE on a nightly basis (rather than laughably overmatched a lot of the time like last season). It will at least be more fun to watch (especially if we finally play that up-tempo style we all have been hollering about for ages).

Samuel, I like my fantasy sports and always stay real competitive (bball bein my specialty). So im definitely down, but I couldnt get the ID/password to work. I think something might be missing in the ID.

By doc

September 27, 2007 11:14 PM | Link to this

flash, i spent most of my life caring for the little guy in the field of medicine so i can hear ya. i alsl know they brought down some pretty bad stuff health wise on themselves when it came to doing the healthy thing and then wanting to get fixed up.

know a federal prosecutor and he is a really great guy, face it they could make a lot more money dong something else besides taking out the little guys which is what they spend little time on usually. spoke to him after the deal was done and he confided in me that vick was dead meat before may in their estimation and this thing was coming down hard and it was only a matter of time. the friend was peripherally involved for only a moment but enough to have real contacts. it didnt seem like they were going after the little guys in this one and if you have read about this, mr vick’s name has been on the radar screen for several years as he was that deep in it.

as far as pit bulls in the city that is where a lot of the fights are now held. it isnt just a rural thing anymore but is part of the urban culture. dont kid yourself mr. v wasnt a little guy in this one but one of the big boys having cultivated this endeavor before he even put the falcon jersey on wih the number 7 on it.

as far his buddies deserting him it was as much him throwing those other guys under the bus from the get g., go back and read his first comments when the story broke, something along the lines of them taking advantage of his hospitality and not doing the rght thing by him and didnt he break with one of the boys in 2004 and still continue the mayhem? i imagine the prosecutors mentioned the v response more than a few times when explaning to the lesser knowns with no cash in their poclets what v really thoiught of them dont cha think flash?

By The Flash

September 27, 2007 10:28 PM | Link to this

Doc I have spent 35 years fighting the good fight for the littles against the bigs, who were unfairly and illegally pushing the littles around. Not after I got through with them. No problem at all.

Most federal prosecutors are way cool people and extremely ehtical. Political prosecutions, however, are a horse of a different feather. I have seen some, friends have been involved in some very notorious ones, and when prosecutors are on such toots they sully the system badly.

I spent a year working as a federal prosecutor and loved it. Mostly petty offense, misdomeanor stuff. Learned an incredible amount. Some felony trials and appeals. Really, really loved the stuff.

Several of the appeals involved victimed crimes. Appellate advocacy is my specialty and I felt no pressure. I just crushed in some pretty contentious cases against top DC defense lawyers, we are talking top. The trials were terrifically exciting but were what you might call victimless crimes—a big credit card fraud case where the dirty merchant and his lawyers were arrogant and it was terrifically exciting.

The victims all felt violated but all had been made whole by the credit card companies, none of whom was particularly helpful in my investigation (it is a long story, but I needed to corroborate a bizzare story and the secret service was at a loss; I wasn’t and figured out a way to prove a case of 80 acts of fraudulent use through essentially two witnesses. Have to say, when it came to argue sentencing, I found it difficult to argue for throwing the book at the guy. Very sobering.

Could tell you other stories of incredible prosecutorial abuse, but I spare everyone.

While an appellate judge will hear and decide more cases than I have handled in 35 years in six months, I have appeared before appellate judges in every court in the land over three and a half decades. Most of them have been on the bench for less than 10 years, and only on one court. They tend to listen to what I have to say.

I am very convincing, and have the luxury of arguing cases that were rightly, albeit inartfully defended. Compared to you guys, arguing the most progressive cases on behalf of working people before conservative judges who have no use for the littles is a walk in the park. There really is a complement in there for you guyz, swear!

By doc

September 27, 2007 9:57 PM | Link to this

samuel your boys got you hopping? glad you came up for air, shame michael got his from a bong while sitting with his probation officer. it is like the killer saying catch me quick i am out of control.

cant commit as of now to the league, changing location with different needs and will be in boston in a seminar the day of the draft, but that is okay, you guys probaly need a handicap from me anyway. heh heh

By Samuel

September 27, 2007 9:43 PM | Link to this

Sup Guys,

Been a long time. Busy as hell. I see my Boy MV has krept back into the conversation. I won’t go there now. I’m kinda thru with that. Yall know how I feel.

Sekous Bloggers 2007-08 is officially up and running. All you so-called experts step up to the plate. It’s on like popcone and neck bones. Go to Yahoo Fantasy Sports and sign up today. League Name: Sekous Bloggers. League ID: 39462. Password: Hawks. It’s limited to 12 teams right now, so serious ballers only. Doc, U in? Ando, I know you want a piece of Me. Cuz, you got your feet wet last year so I don’t want no excuses this year. Ando, I upped the moves to 24. OK by you? The live draft is set for Sunday, October 28th at 2:00 p.m.

Holla back at Me if yall got issues.

By Mike

September 27, 2007 9:15 PM | Link to this

Ya Doc gotta come up with another moniker. Must be moving up food chain on the blog Bro. Keep mixing that Kool-aid Baby.

One thing for sure, if he ain’t bragging about my young Hawks, it ain’t me. GO GUYS, GO SEKOU, and GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By doc

September 27, 2007 8:44 PM | Link to this

oh btw cool mike and i agree wholeheartedly, funny i was wondering where the goooo hawks!!! was too. need to come up with another chop man so we can know who you are as someone stole yours maybe, unmadman mike.

By doc

September 27, 2007 8:39 PM | Link to this

flash it must be hard to be in a legal system as your work and express what you have and to attempt to find logic in the way the legal system makes its laws, then enforces them. i can say my own piece about western medicine however, if you dance the dance you have to pay the piper. if it had been that easy though dont you think his 5 lawyers might have held the line a bit just for their own notoriety and own financial well being? or is it sometimes you just have to take the punishment as being there knowing that you shouldnt.

otherwise your argument is just a sense of his staying in an adolescent mindset and justifying that. dont justify what is wrong by pointing out the other things that are wrong as as a justificaion or rationale that it is then a right. hypocrisy yes it just doesnt go there to being a right, as you know in the legal system if you do something that is licensed you dont go to jail if you do the opposite you put yourself in jeopardy and take the risk of the hammer.

barbaric practices have ultimately been changed with enlightenment or power and laws, the list is long chrisitians to lions, african tribes selling brothers into slavery, slavery itself morally being believed as okay because it involved an inferior race that fortunately has been proven wrong and jews unto hitler and the holocost and the atrocities that the pres of iran still believes didnt happen. sadly now you suggesting pit bulls only are to kill when big ray can put you in front of his docile pit bull of his own and suggest otherwise. glad you got it off your chest but it may be more what you have had to justfy within rather than what is discussed. just maybe?

By mykhalc

September 27, 2007 7:57 PM | Link to this

FLASH, LOL!!!!

By Mike

September 27, 2007 7:50 PM | Link to this

Guys, there to appear to be another Mike on the seen, But Ya No it ain’t me cause of my infamous GO HAWKS.

Doc, Ray, and Flash for what it worth I feel you. However everything that happens in life can’t always be explain or justified. There are rules to the game of life we all have to live by. Nobody said life would be a bowl of cherry. One minute you’re soaring to the star the next minute you’re crashing back to planet earth. The true testament of man is how he response to adversity. Despite what people think, the book on Mike has not been written yet, its just beginning. I’m one that believes there is more forgiveness and civility in the hearts of the average man than retribution and punishment. Life goes on. Time has a way of healing all wounds. I simply refuse to let anything shakes my love and excitement for the two sports that are true and dear to my heart. Football and Basketball Baby.

GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By mykhalc

September 27, 2007 7:29 PM | Link to this

and just to show you cats i’m focused again…ABOUT THAT JJ TRADE…………LOL

By The Flash

September 27, 2007 7:27 PM | Link to this

Mykmyman You been talkin to my wife? I got a closet full of really nice, I mean fine, stuff that I’d love to be able to fit into. LOL!

By The Flash

September 27, 2007 7:26 PM | Link to this

Mykmyman You been talkin to my wife? I got a closet full of really nice, I mean fine, stuff that I’d love to be able to fit into. LOL!

By mykhalc

September 27, 2007 7:18 PM | Link to this

FLASH, yeeeaaaaahhh man!!!!! thanks for gettin’ it off my chest too!!!!

this country/society ‘CAN BE’ (not always) soooooooooo ‘law du jour’!! as a ‘LIVING BEING RIGHTS’ kinda person i’m appalled at any kinda abuse. so as much as i’m a VICK supporter, he brought sooooooo much of this on himself. and whether that’s thru unconditional loyalty or not, he just shoulda been smarter!!!

what gets me the most are the hypocrites!! the good ole boy hunters are there condemnin’ VICK! gimme a f’n break!! i’ve posted this on other blogs before…ANYBODY that sits down and consumes ‘meat’ as a part of their daily meals is contributin’ to the senseless slaughter of innocent/defenseless animals. meat is NOT a necessary part of diet, especially in THIS COUNTRY!!! if you do, you are doin’ it for your eatin’ enjoyment…PERIOD!!!

BECOME VEGETARIAN to lower your karmic debt!!! AND to allow you to complain and vent, without hypocrisy, about MV7!!!!!

ok…i’m good now!!! back to b’ball!!! GO HAWKS!!!!

ps…fellas, no offense intended!!!

By The Flash

September 27, 2007 7:10 PM | Link to this

Hey Coyete, definitely the line of the week. Nice name too.

By The Flash

September 27, 2007 7:07 PM | Link to this

And another thing. Whatdaya think would happen if the president of Exxon told the guys who work on those rigs, especially the divers who risk their lives every day, that they better behave during their two weeks shore leave every month?

Wouldn’t need to be worrying about no terrorist bombings is my bet.

Football is a manly man’s sport, in which the ehtos is live fast and die young. Hypocrites, I say, hypocrites!

Willie Coyote, I agree with you about Vick 100 percent, only it shouldn’t have been a federal crime nor a felony, imo.

A year, out in six months with six month’s probation sounds about right to me. Heck, they could have had multiple misdomeanor convictions, and made the probationary period even longer.

I know I promised; put it on my tab, I owe you guys.

By Willie Coyote

September 27, 2007 3:07 PM | Link to this

…and another thing. While Vick continues to be called a monster maybe people should google the “Megan Williams West Virginia” and see what kind of stuff real monsters do.

By Willie Coyote

September 27, 2007 2:52 PM | Link to this

Pits are no more aggressive and dangerous than other mastiff or working class breeds. The problem is that people are training them to be vicious and therefore they get a bad reputation.

Dogfighting is and should be a crime and Vick should be punished for his role in it. His is, however, a victim of bad friendships, family relations, and a blood thirsty media though. But he should have known that was was a mark because of his lofty draft position, the position he played, his visibility, and his contract size. If you know you are walking through the proverbial fire, don’t soak your draws in gasoline!

As far as killing the dogs…Please. The manner in which some were killed is pretty barbaric and is dererving of punishment but actually killing animals that didn’t perform is nothing new in this country. If a thoroughbred can’t race, a plow ox/horse can’t pull, a pure-bred stud won’t breed, then, in many (but not all) cases, these animals are put down regardless of what their quality of life will be in the future. You can say that they are put down humanely, but in a lot of cases they aren’t and even if they are it is still killing an animal that is no longer profitable for their owners.

I hate to see this happen to Vick but he brought it on himself. Hopefully, this incident will serve as an example to parents and kids alike.

Man, we need the season to start because we have seriously run out of basketball topics on this blog.

By The Flash

September 27, 2007 2:37 PM | Link to this

I know this is off the board stuff and will stop after this, my apologies in advance

1. My bet is that those 17 other guys were yahoos who had no resources to fight prosecution and had no grounds to do so in any event.

2. Neither was the case with Vick. This is what I believe:

   a. Vick did not regard this as his thing. He would have financed his boyz if they were breeding poodles or chose to run a pimp my ride operation on that property. The money was chump change to him, and he participated to the extent he did because he was hangin with guys who were for him before he was Michael Vick. You know how those things can be, Doc, we both know of at least one example, right?

   b. The Feds had an extremely iffy case if they went to trial. I think that at least one juror would have gotten what I just said, and, if they did, then all this bankroll stuff goes out the window.

The rest of the case would have turned on the uncorroborated testimony of these guys who not only were fightin and killin the pits on a full-time basis, but rolled on their dearest friend who had given them everything.

c. We will never know if that testimony by those three other guys was the truth. Never Don’t be tellin me now that Vick admitted to it. Vick admitted to it with a freakin gun pointed at his head.

d. Vick would have gone to trail in a heart beat unless the prosecutors, with their week assed case agreed to take an Allen plea with maybe a month to six in jail. An Allen plea is that you agree to certain base facts, in this case that would not have included anything about killin no dogs, without admitting to having committed a crime (or something like it) but agreeing that the facts constituted a proper basis for finding guilt on certain specified crimes.

e. The prosecutors were afraid to try that case because there was a damn good chance that they would have ended up with only their privates in hand.

f. Rather than plead the case for what it was worth, they threatened Vic with a RICO indictment. RICO is a racketeering charge that is incredibly nebulous and that carries a mandatory minimum of 20 freakin years. It was meant as a tool to put organized criminals like Jon Gotti away for a long time on lesser offenses that could be woven into a RICO charge, but has been misused.

In this case, the threatened RICO charge was the act of cowards and scoundrals who debased the system that they purported to uphold.

At the time, the US Attorney’s Office in Va was under fire as just outside the 8 offices that continue to comprise the scandal that forced Gonzalez’s resignation. They were also under fire for failing to bring even a single indictment related to Katrina or the theft of funds stolen from the war effort. Changed the headlines didn’t they.

So, Vick had the wearwithall to fight and a completely winable case, and was forced to his knees by a misuse of power. That is how I see it.

That the League fanned the flames of this instead of trying to push back against the animal right’s lobby and the animal lovers who wanted blood, I believe will turn out to be a watershed moment in the sport of football, if not other sports as well.

I believe that you will see more and more highly paid stars saying get lost when asked to play on bad ankles and sprained knees, shoulders and backs.

I believe that there will be a push back against these ridiculous pre seasons, demands for sit out games so that exhausted bodies that need it can rest. I believe that the men who owners and media treat like chattel will stand up and refuse such treatment any longer. Well, a guy can hope, anyway.

Thanks, boyz, for lettin me get this off my chest. I really appreciate it.

By doc

September 27, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

flash, you dont go forward by going backwards. love ya ya know it. thanks for expressing your raw nerve. selah

By The Flash

September 27, 2007 12:59 PM | Link to this

Doc NBR&L and I won’t belabor the point. Pits are dangerous animals and should not be in cities. Many states passed laws outlawing them as pets. The animal lobby not only has gotten such laws rescinded in many places, Maryland included, but, get this now, has gotten legislation passed that mandates that pits be kept in public kennels for adoption.

Last week, a teen in Takoma Park, a very progressive incorporated town adjoining DC, was riding home on a bicycle and as he was turning into his driveway, a neighbor’s pit “escaped” from its fenced yard, grabbed the 160 pound kid by the arm and yanked him off the bike. The kid was bashing him in the head to no avail, and grown man rushed over and could not get the pit off, the pit finally let go, and the kid’s arm is a disaster.

One reads about toddlers and young kids getting attacked all the time. These animals are not pets, certainly not for city life.

They are extremely dangerous creatures who have no choice but to try to kill in way too many instances.

Sending any man to prison for fighting these beasts is a waste of human life. Not to say that punishments are not appropriate. Prisons are hell holes; cost society in untold ways; and equally bruttal treatment of animals is considered sport.

Swear to g-d, Doc. I got a new cable channel and saw a bit of a hunting show. Seems that people run fenced “preserves” where they feed deer and elk specially enriched food so people can come and get a truly worthy trophy. I bet most people don’t even keep the horns any more. A picture for the wall suffices.

Those animals don’t kill nobody,” Doc, and the **hunting parties? who go there to pay big bucks for their bucks I can assure you ain’t black. This really doesn’t trouble you?

By doc

September 27, 2007 12:33 PM | Link to this

flash the men had a choice the dogs didnt and they were put to death dude by the grim rapers. it isnt about race. 17 went to jail for what they did last year, 15 were white. i do see and have stated the hypocrisy but it cant be the end all for the maiming of innocent animals. now lats dont go into how animals are treated to be our food supply, speaking of inhumane.

ok, i do hear you and know your righful agenda involves athletes used up by the system. the head injuries are part of the explanation for the brutality and it starts before high school … go figure.

By The Flash

September 27, 2007 12:13 PM | Link to this

A Word (yeah right) about Vick

It is a travesty that this guy is going to prison for staging pit bull fights. Why is this a federal crime? Tell me one human being that was hurt.

Now, pet owners are going to say that they love their pets and that pits can be pets too. As to the first point, I say great for you; as for the second, I say bull.

Pits are a breed that was created bred to kill cattle, wild cattle. To bring them down by their snouts and kill them by breaking their necks or chewing their faces off. Put them around people and likely as not they’ll do the same to them.

If the locals feel strongly about such matters, make it a misdemeanor, 30 days in the slammer and a fine. Prison? Prisons are hell holes and they are filled by way too many people of color. Send a man to prison for this. It makes me sick.

Now, the US Attorney in Virgina is responsible for defending the freakin country from terrorists and from getting ripped off by the multiple billions, so many that even Doc can’t count em, by the people who are supposed to be supplying aide in La, and our troups in Iraq and elsewhere. Everybody knows that billions upon billions are unaccounted for.

If any of you can understand that office’s involvment in this Vick persecution in terms other than politics that include some elements of race, g-d bless, is all I can say. Sure did take the heat off of all those government contractors who have built Northern Virgina into the wealthiest county in America. Just a coincidence I suppose.

The NFL should have supported Vick. Should have said he did wrong and should have to pay a debt to society but that the idea of a federal or state indictment for multiple felonies and anything other than a few months in jail was inappropriate. They should have said that because it is true. They should have said that because not one of those owners, or the commish, gives a rat’s a** about pit-bull fighting.

They didn’t because they had boxed themselves into a corner ever since the T.O. debacle, which they have now escalated into trying to clean up the off field behaviors of the young black men who they chew up like canon fodder like they were soldiers making charges up the beach in Charleston. That effort, in my view, is both hypocritical and more than a tad bigoted.

No, I am not a fan of such off field behaviors, but these guys are freakin warriers, who are selling their bodies and both sides know it. Many will be maimed and disgarded after a few short years. But the league has its image to protect (not when it comes to cheatin that could have effected the outcome of games late in the season in a run for a championship though) and they went for it. Having done so, what could they do but throw Vick to the wolves?

Makes me sick.

By doc

September 27, 2007 10:57 AM | Link to this

newk, i was referring to this specifically:

“This is beyond disgusting, and it needs to stop. Those nationally and locally who keep suggesting that Michael Vick has become a martyr around Atlanta because of the city’s legendary ties to the civil-rights movement are spitting on the graves of Martin, Malcolm, Sojourner, Rosa, W.E.B., Booker T and Frederick”.

keep the peace and faith, bro, and yes, life is good when aj and ando are getting it on even if they are disagreeing while at times sounding more like they are saying the same thing. what do they say “love is so close to hate”. no hatin here though, only love.

By newkid

September 27, 2007 10:17 AM | Link to this

doc, thanks for the head’s up. Mr. Moore said:

“As a whole, the fanatical support that Vick gets from his apologists has little to do with their belief that this is another African-American victim of a biased judicial system.”

I suspect Mr. Moore has done his research and has data and information that allows him to make this assertion. Certainly I’ve done no such research, so I wouldn’t argue with his conclusion at all.

Muhammad Ali is the last athlete for whom I’ve had unbridled adulation (and I suspect this adulation is founded on matters well beyond athletics), so Mr. Vick’s circumstance doesn’t elicit much of a reaction from me. However, I do SO much feel bad for the kids who, probably through little (if any) fault of their own, so adored this guy and his on-field artistry. Parents, careful with allowing the youngsters to grow up worshipping athletes, entertainers, politicians, and probably a fair number of others.

My pre-occupation (this water situation) hasn’t allowed me much time lately to follow sports, but I do enjoy dropping in here from time-to-time to get a sense of the dialogue. Great to see ANDO and AJ locking horns again.

All the best.

By doc

September 27, 2007 9:49 AM | Link to this

jhan agree, chris paul maybe good enough to put you in draft purgatory … mid-range where you then have to spend money to get bigger and better. so we probably wouldnt have had our same shots in the draft so that is an improbable argument that continues. he is not the answer to going all the way. as good as he is it may be only good enough to get you close to the playoffs or in.

our present onwnership made the decision to do it like chicago did and how the clippers have run their organization as well as the griz did by doing it the cheap way or as sekou said the SLOW way. which is right? who knows, but aol did get the only gm available with experience in doing it just that way and the broken atlanta spirit continued the run by keeping the guy that aol hired to keep costs down. remember that is the reason we went there to break up the team and its huge payroll of 60 mil for nothing, so aol couldnt say it was spending money indiscriminantly as their stock tumbled.

many mistakes have brought us to our present destiny. where next … baited breath of anticipation for the coming season “where hope springs eternal”. yes, i cant wait.

By Mike

September 27, 2007 8:30 AM | Link to this

Love your stuff, Sekou, but I think you need to look up the word “myopic.” I don’t think that word is what you meant.

By jhan

September 27, 2007 8:09 AM | Link to this

Can’t believe we’re still talking about the JJ trade & the non drafting of Chris Paul. Some things never change!

Just food for thought - IF we had drafted Chris Paul (the second coming of Isiah Thomas according to some) & we were still in the same draft position the following year, how great a pick would that have been?

It’s unrealistic to say he would have made an immediate imppact on this team but our record would have been the same. What kind of impact is that? If he is that good, we wouldn’t have been in position to draft Roy anyway.

Nobody will convince me that signing JJ was a bad deal. Nobody knows for sure that PHX would not have matched. Dig up the old stories after the fact & you will find several references where PHX would have matched. Joe was right, why would the guy from Toronto lie about that now? Does he have some secret agreement with BK to say that publicly?

Submarine, did I miss something? How will PHX end up with 3 lottery picks from this deal?

By doc

September 27, 2007 7:21 AM | Link to this

this is not about basketball or the hawks so dont read it, nor expect a discussion.

newkid. take a look at terence moore’s column today. he states almost verbatim what i said during that dialogue we had back when espn jumped into the social relevance market and tried to follow suit on it this past week with the shindig they had this past week in atlanta when it came to comparisons to people of the past. again he was he apologist to be shown up the very next days in the sad never ending saga that is beginning to look similar to the britany story and the stripper/starlet smith story. it is not a story of race it is a story of entitlement. those that are stuck on the former are stuck there for a reason and it is their own prejudice of projection not the observations of others. they are just as stuck as many of my friends were when i was demonstrating and debating my views about more freedoms and they were telling me otherwise. they also may be stuck on the idea that they are entitled to certain passes when it comes to social issues and responsibilities as a new sense of entitlement. the apologist saying it is just weed is not an acceptable argument in the whole context of what he has lost and what he still faces. he certainly doesnt have the psychological reserve to see it, only responding to the physiology of his needs beyond the scope of reality and common sense.

By doc

September 27, 2007 6:41 AM | Link to this

mr h if he does it, so be it. there will be plenty to compare between last season and this and if he steps up cool. just i prefer not to blue sky and do hoping along, with him. his defense is terribly suspect and that is why his numbers are so sorry. of our top five or six his plus minus numbers put him at the bottom of the rotation. go back and look as his numbers with most combos of fours and fives, were all negative.

first of all he has a lot of potential and wants to be the man and i admire it. he sticks his head out there like a leader but if you cant do it on the court it doesnt translate. he just doesnt bring the energy, motor or abilities to the defensive side of the ball and as yet hasnt shown the consistant offensive game to make him less of a liability. towards the end of the season saw a game where his old coach was there to watch since ncaa’s were in town. he couldnt stay on th court that day he looked so bad and i expected a stellar performance with his college coach williams sitting there on the third row facing me on the other side of the court(thanks to mr jhan). make excuses for his early season performance but he still hadnt shown much more at the end than he had the year before as a rookie.

yes mr h we are all anticipating to see how things go this year and i want it to go well. i just wont deceive myself further about hopes and potential. be my guest if you want to it is all good. what did the guy say, “i just call it like i see it”?

By MrH

September 26, 2007 10:26 PM | Link to this

doc,

The 5-man units actually paint a better picture of Marvin than many would expect. Going solely by the numbers, he played better with JJ than anyone Hawk.

Give the guy a chance this season. There’ll be plenty of time after the season to pan him if he fails.

By Steve T

September 26, 2007 10:14 PM | Link to this

Submariner683, you are crazy about the JJ deal. It was one of the best deal in the Hawks history. The only thing the Hawks need is a big player down low. PGs are a dime a dz.

By Tyger

September 26, 2007 5:30 PM | Link to this

Hb ANDjOb

You felt cheap and dirty way before Sekou arrived!!

By A Thinking Fan

September 26, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this

Flash I was in AJC Hawk’s blog rehab my man…

I feel the season coming, tension in the blog! What time is it? NBA season Time!!!

By Tyger

September 26, 2007 2:34 PM | Link to this

Hawks will be Exciting

Hawks fans will have the rare opportunity to see a team rise from the ashes…

After 20 years of futility, the Hawks are finally positioned to reclaim their proper position in the NBA and stay there.

Imagine the uber-talents finally mature and healthy: JJ,JS,JC,MW,AH represent the best wing unit in the NBA. ZP,SW,SS,SJ provide high-level depth and none are 25 old yet.

Al Horford is the reigning NCAA Tourney MVP and 2-peat National Champion. Texas A&M star, Acie Law is the PG of future.

Hawks will suffer from mismatches inside; but may be able to overcome that by displaying a higher level of overall basketball talent.

Speedy, AJ, Lue, Lo Wright could fetch something nice; but these high character vets could also provide playoff caliber depth over the course of a long season.

But the more JJ, JC, MW, JS, AH, SW, AC play together the better.

By mykhalc

September 26, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

FLASH, my man, unless (and hopefully) that coachin’ change is DREW!!! we can CONTINUE to dream!!

but any day now that wish will force me to begin to chant my new mantra…WOODY’s GOTTA GO!! WOODY’s GOTTA GO!!! WOODY’s GOTTA GO!!

and to try to keep my karma ‘somewhat’ clean, i will wish him speedy and gainful employment at the new organization of his choosin’!!!

By Astro Joe

September 26, 2007 12:52 PM | Link to this

Has anyone thought how boring this blog will be once we win a Title? And poor, Clyde, dude will be out of his retail business.

By Submariner683

September 26, 2007 12:51 PM | Link to this

This franchise has made roster moves that border on the comic. It would be funny if it wasn’t the team I root for.

The picks, until last year, trades, moves made to this roster have been the worst of any franchise in ANY sport. By far.

The Shariff Abdur Rahim debacle would ring loudest for me, if it were not for the insane JJ deal. Anybody remember that deal? Gave up their first round pick (which would ahve been Pau Gasol), Lorenzen Wright, who they gave up a 1st round pick to get and another player that was a first rounder for another team. For 3 first rounders you should be getting a bar none elite franchise player. Rahim was good at that time, I’d say top 15-20 players in the league, but he wasn’t worth 3 first rounders.

The JJ move was by far the worst I’ve ever seen. Offer a player a contract that no other team in their right mind would sign, and give them 3 1st round picks to boot. If they really wanted him, to make sure, they could have offered another 10 million to go way over the top. Phoenix has/had top players to sign that were more valuable to them than their #4 guy. Now Phoenix is going to be fat with 3 lottery picks over the next few years. I’m suprised the other teams didn’t step in to stop the trade because of the potential shift in the balance of power.

Picks, this franchise has been the worst in all professional sports with their picks since the early 80s. With the exception of ONE player who is now playing for Dallas, the franchise has completely struck out with their 1st rounders. Alan Henderson was a decent player, and I like the new crop from the last 3 years, except for the Williams’. I like this years picks a lot.

Marvin Williams? A player that had one year and did not impress me that much. He obviously impressed the ACC voters who gave him freshman of the year. And he obviously impressed somebody to make him that high on the draft board. But why select a SF/PF when you have 3-4 players at those positions already and you NEED a PG. Which right now was a damn good crop of PGs. Maybe you could have pulled a deal and got out of the #2 spot, got your PG and picks. Hell, Jarret Jack went somewhere around 15th and would have been a crowd pleaser. And is not playing too badly either.

Sheldon was a solid player in college against teams that didn’t have the kind of talent that was on Duke and the fact that Duke gets a lot of calls and their players are allowed to play a lot more aggressive doesn’t hurt either. When getting to a more level field, he didn’t perform as well. But he did pick it up at the end of last year. So I’ll hold judgement on him.

Bottom line is that this organization needs new everything. New, solid ownership, new GM, new head coach. I think there is enough talent on the roster to compete.

Missing out on 1st round picks is going to hurt for awhile, but this team’s history of lousy picks, maybe that’s a blessing.

By The Flash

September 26, 2007 12:45 PM | Link to this

Ray, you sure you and Ando and Belkin ain’t the same guy?

Of course I’m not saying that BK would have taken Roy, and certainly our man Andoman ain’t. that is his point. BK was not and is not the man for the job.

However, like the good Doctor oh so eloquently wove it into a fabric with so many colors that even I wouldn’t wear it (I do dress outrageously, especially for a lawyer, btw), BK has a pass for at least a few months, even though I and Andoman believe that that will continue to have its costs.

That is not to say that this team is not equiped to make some noise. Someone, somewhere, was smart enough to keep Drew around and put him one step closer to the big seat; that itself is a positive note on which to begin.

An addendum I hate mid season coaching changes so I hope one will not be necessary. However, if that happens, I would have to think that Drew will be gone at season’s end.

By ray

September 26, 2007 12:40 PM | Link to this

If this is family, I’d hate to see total strangers…

By mykhalc

September 26, 2007 11:06 AM | Link to this

DOC, i see that new space has got you in total alignment with the qi flowin’ freely!!! NICE!!

SMARTGUY, a big AMEN from me bro!!!

ain’t family fun!!!!!!LOL

By smartguy

September 26, 2007 9:32 AM | Link to this

You can blame Billy, Belkin, the Spirit, or whomever for the lack of talent on the roster. BUT, regardless of who is on our team or not, the Hawks have not maximized their win potential. That failure to produce on the court lies predominantly with Mike Woodson.

By mike

September 26, 2007 9:24 AM | Link to this

Doc, now that was definitely Pulitzer Bro. GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By ray

September 26, 2007 8:32 AM | Link to this

Doc…positively Shakespearian. I couldn’t even think of more to say to that.

By doc

September 26, 2007 6:28 AM | Link to this

flash it is with deference to your and several others wonderful elucidation about how you are right concerning the blink by merely suggesting that you have won by attrition and that most of us are tired of this particular dialogue and have moved on. i have even heard some here say “i get tired of saying the same things and reading the same things over again” fall into their own well set traps for their minds and chime right back into it of their own making. most of us are ready for a new season and are speculating on that. so with that there is much specualtion on how the primary marionette will pull the strings.

i am sure there will be a relevant time for you or anyone else to demonize any of the present management team, owners ( my pet peeve including your guy belkin that pushed the buttons to the brink it seems as his fierce steel hand of govenorship brought the whole house down and landed us in court), the coaches and players. i guess some of us have to resharpen the fingers for the keyboards by retelling old tales and if i cant see myself doing it i oh so undefiantly and with great contrition apologize for my own blinded self image.

as far as billy his time for demonizing was in anticipation for the draft, his territory, which was vanilla but well received by the people in the know. so he gets a pass until about the first third of the season as we look at the newbies unless the team starts out on another oh fer like two years ago and has to find a coach. yes, there is plenty of drama left, fortunately, we dont have to hear about dolan and isiah every day like they do in new york.

it is all in fun, just getting the game face on.

By ray

September 26, 2007 1:50 AM | Link to this

Mike, I feel you. And, I agree that a player can always be maximized or minimized by his current situation. However, people seem to be focusing on a peeing contest about who is to blame, who is wrong, and who’s been right or wrong about whatever for the last 2 or 3 years. Gets old, doesn’t it? Sometimes I amuse myself by stoking the fire…Of course, eventually somebody catches you at it though…LOL!

By ray

September 26, 2007 1:45 AM | Link to this

What’s this got to do with Ando’s rep? I figure the argument is about how much blame to assign to whom. People have been on Woody’s case here lately, and Ando steps back in with his usual pet peeve. Both sides are right, just for different reasons.

My whole point was this: the same guy who’s goofing is the same guy you should expect to goof, regardless of the situation or scenario that you come up with.

Flash, both you and Ando have been brilliant in framing your hindsight driven assessments, especially when detailing what Billy should have been forced to do.

Let me see if I can clarify my previous rambling post (which was for amusement and fire-stoking purposes, by the way). Your thinking is precise and reasonable. You are saying how things should’ve/would’ve gone, but you are doing so assuming what a reasonable person would do. Do you see Billy as being this reasonable? NO, you don’t. Billy is the X factor in your equation. Because of this, your equation is neither steady, nor proven. All because of Billy, whom you already acknowledge the source of a set of problems. See what I mean? What I’m saying is that you’re right. But because Billy is the guy making the calls, all of your “this is the way it should have gone” is rather irrelevant because this is Billy.

No matter what you think he would have been forced to do, he very likely would NOT have done it. He would’ve found another way to bungle it, because there’s always another way. Yes, this is definitely “the glass is half empty- hell it hasn’t hardly got anything in it” type of attitude, but if you’re going to go hindsight, track the moves he’s made. There’s no reason to think that any of this would’ve been any better had he not gone ape for JJ. He could have just as easily done something crazier.

By ray

September 26, 2007 1:21 AM | Link to this

Flash, let me start by saying that I understand that you’re supporting Ando’s long standing argument. And I agree with most of it. But..

I’ll agree on the point that BK blinked on the JJ deal. I’ll also agree that MYKHALC has a point. And I’ll add my own twist. Here it is: you can say all day that BK shouldn’t have played it so badly in the JJ deal. What you cannot for all intensive purposes say is that BK would have EVER drafted Roy or ANY player of his caliber in his position. Even if he couldn’t get JJ via free agency or a better trade. No way, no how. Here’s a list of the guards he’s drafted in the last few years here: Cenk Aykol and Acie Law. Cenk ain’t even here and I swear Acie was drafted because somebody higher up threatened to cut off the man’s afro, tar and feather him, and worst of all…speak openly to all media personnel about all management decisions while being tarred, feathered, and bald. No REALLY.

Does this make the JJ situation right? Does it justify it? No, absolutely not. All I’m saying is that using Roy in any of your arguments is misplaced. I’m telling you, based on Knight’s track record here, there’s no reason to think Roy or any of the other guards we could have had, would have ever come here via the draft. You KNOW he would’ve drafted some forward and tried to make him play the 1 or the 2. In fact, he already did: Josh Childress. That would have likely been our 2 guard of the future until something happened. Not a guy like Roy, not Foye, not Stuckey, none of those guys.

And why did we end up with Joe? As if you didn’t know…Because the guy is 6’7” and fits the mold of what Knight usually wants. On top of that, as he cackled diabolically behind closed doors, he was sure he had finally completed his secret weapon. A team of swingmen led at the point by…you guessed it: a swingman. “Hah!” he proclaimed, ” I will rebuild the NBA in my own image, the time of Billy’s Invincible Swingmen has come!”

Come on, you know I’m right because they tried it. Tell me it doesn’t seem to come together, tell me it doesn’t seem like what Billy might think. No REALLY.

You can’t say one minute that BK is nuts and doesn’t get the right pieces…then the next minute say that he could have skipped out on JJ and gotten Roy (or any other guard) via the high draft slots. You can’t say that and be talking about the same guy.

And THAT’S why Roy doesn’t fit into your arguments. THAT’S where Mykhalc makes a valid point. You can’t have it both ways.

By The Flash

September 25, 2007 11:39 PM | Link to this

You guys are giving Ando here an unfair rap. From what I’ve been reading the past few months at least, people, a near across the board concensus, has decided that changes were needed in the GM and coaching slots. Heard nary a dissent.

Ando, who has been absent, comes in and makes the case that BK needs to go. I might add as I did that he made it calmly, without vitriol, but very persuasively. Me, I was very impressed with the new and improved Andoman.

I’m not understanding why the ceiling fell in. Doc, weren’t you at long last ready to throw your boy over for some new blood? I could have sworn that that was the case. So, why the beef with Ando on this?

Come on THINKINGMAN we all know you was in rehab. I do like your take that winning solves all problems; very optimistic for a downhead like yourself. NBL, kiddo.

By mykhalc

September 25, 2007 11:08 PM | Link to this

MIKE, what do ANY OF US know??? we’re all in the same ‘fan’ boat!!!

ATF, family ALWAYS argues about the same ole sh$t!!!LOL

By A Thinking Fan

September 25, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

Doc That’s why I stopped posting comments for a while, some of us can’t let go and move on to better topics…

By Mike

September 25, 2007 10:19 PM | Link to this

Mykhalc, you know I’m always setting back checking things out Bro. One thing is for sure, anybody that thinks CPaul, Dwilliams, or Roy could have came to the Hawks and performed at the same level that they did with their current team has been drinking way too much Kool-aid. Coaching and veteran leadership are the quintessential thing that every team must have. When there’s a big void of either it affects the performance of the whole team, especially young guys. That’s why it’s absurd for guys to keep lambasting Marvin and Shelden.

Ray you’re a baller, you’re going to tell me that the team you play for doesn’t matter.

My point is if we are just going to keep blaming BK and Woodson without blaming that scoundrel Belkin and the rest of the spirit than its pointless.

I keep asking myself if the Hawks are such a bad team why the H did they beat some of the best team in the league last season. When everyone wanted the Hawks to tank the season why the H did these so call worthless guys stand and fight. BK got an All Star player and has drafted three first round draft picks out of the JJ deal, but he’s suppose to be so incompetent. What does that say for the rest of teams that have a record similar to the Hawks, or not much better than the Hawks, grossly over the cap with aging players? Man I guess their GM and their organization are so much more superior to the Hawks? Right!!!! But what do I know, I’m just a fan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By doc

September 25, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this

now, what are you guys talking about? gee, i think i’ll take a pass on this relevant topic of whether or not the suns would have matched the offer or not. i wonder how many more times it will have to be brought up? what ando has been back what 2 days before it is brought back into conciousness? gee, wonder how we got back onto this and some wonder why there is nothing refreshong to talk about than that.

well, there is the big nba world out there guys. like, can you believe marion and how indignant he is because he is only making 16 mil plus the next few seasons and is worried about getting his due after this contract is done. gee ando, think he has a crack pipe habit to take care of or is it just pure greed. liked him but hopefully we can keep him at arms distance instead of falling prey to it and somehow thinking he is that last piece to put us over the top. at that price i still think jj is a bargain. oops, i guess i cant say that unless i get drawed untoith the fray.

By The Flash

September 25, 2007 6:22 PM | Link to this

Let’s everybody get their drawers back in place here boyz. Nobody wants to start world war II again.

Mykmyman, you know better to accuse me of believing that Woody would do good by anybody on the offensive end, much less two green players. Only saying that we all sufferred the past two years (you guys more than me) and I for one have been calling for Woody and BK to be gone for the entire time.

Now, I still think that Woody should go, but think that the team is more improved than Andoman does (it was the same last year).

Astro. You will recall, if you check, that, while I was on Roy for the 1 pick earlier and consistent through the end, I was not hatin like some about Shelden. I believe that Shelden was as hurt by the coaching here as anybody. I think that he is a much better offensive player than he showed, and will not play “thug” for anybody.

That said, if I remember correctly, Detroit was built around a deadly effective offensive backcourt that went three deep, and a small foreward slot that was power offense too (Dantley and then the much lesser Aguire).

Of the two thugs, Lamalanadingdong could score the damn ball and did. You can talk defense all you want but those dudes could score down the stretch when other teams had to make stops. Teams knew that Zeke was impossible to stop, and, if you threw enough at him to seriously try, Dumars, Lama, Aguire and the human torpedo would kill you.

If that ain’t power offense, you tell me what is.

Same with Larry’s Detroit team. All I can say is that for a guy known as defense firsthe must have been damn lucky because he did end up with an awesome offensive team. What made that team so awesome was their ability to kill you with matchups in the halfcourt, and to run out.

Sheed, Rip, and Prince presented nightmare match ups, and Brown had each playing brilliantly and was able to change what they were doing to match the defensive challenges better than any bench coach I’ve seen. We didn’t even talk about Billips who was, like the others, so much more effective in killer time with Larry.

In short, Astro, I stand by my assessment that players who are hitting on all cylindars as a team on the offense and can impose their collective will on the opposition on that end, will be able to defend the other guys and more importantly will have the WILL to do it.

Not that everybody does not want to do it, but the game is played, first and foremost, on offense. You are effective on offense, you WILL make the stops needed to win. You are not effective on offense, well, even bobby and his intimidation-style defense wouldn’t fight that battle. In fact, I think most all his televised smack downs were precipated by offensive, not defensive, lapses.

By Astro Joe

September 25, 2007 6:00 PM | Link to this

Flash it would have been Deron (he was clearly the preferred PG of the Hawks). But again I ask, what makes you think that the Sloan coached Deron would be the same as the Woody coached Deron? Riddle me that, Flashman.

By Astro Joe

September 25, 2007 5:11 PM | Link to this

Ando, tell us all the story that you heard about how an owner wanted BK to follow-through on the JJ deal to begin the dissolution of the partnership of the owners. Tell us that story and then tell me how BK is to blame for following his boss’ direction. Either the story is crap or the blame of BK is crap for making the deal. I don’t understand how both can be true. Oh and why would Colangelo say (after he had been hired by Toronto and was eating a Canadian moose burger) that he was told by Sarver to match the Atlanta offer sheet? Why would he lie when he was no longer a Suns employee?

In hindsight, 2 years after he left Phoenix, who would they rather have, JJ or Marion? There is no doubt that they would make that trade yesterday. And I’m guessing that they knew back then what we are only seeing now, that JJ meant far more to that team than Marion, especially when the playoffs roll around.

Flash, sorry, Shelden, in my opinion, falls under right idea, bad results. And guess what, that happens sometimes in life. Your “offense rules over everything else” philosophy is interesting but I have never seen it applied in the past 10 years. Chuck Daly’s Pistons team change the league. Simply dictating the entire game by your offensive play was beaten down, kicked in the private parts and mangled by the Bad Boys. It was reincarnated by the Knicks and Heat a few years later. So to say that BK should have been stockpiing wing players is quite contrary to everything we’ve seen in the past few years.

Ando, what difference does it make if those non-playoff teams play well against the Hawks if they still sit next to Hawks players during the playoffs? Are they to be applauded if they win 32 games with a center while we win 30? Centers do not guarantee playoff success. Teams would rather play small than throw a Felton Spencer on the floor to pretend to play center. In today’s NBA, Karl Malone would be the center and would do just fine.

By mykhalc

September 25, 2007 4:54 PM | Link to this

FLASH, i’ll give it to ya. NICE POST!!! and i even got the clarity in which you delivered the 1st paragraph!!!LOL

here is our MAIN difference…you have a lot more confidence in WOODSON than i will probably ever have!!! there is NO WAY i believe the backcourt of CP or DERON and ROY would have produced ANYTHIN’ CLOSE to what they have done for their current teams!!! especially comin’ in as rooks!!! and i say that really likin’ DERON and ROY as players!!

no, i believe the seasons would have been worse. if for no other reason than WOODSON havin’ 2 more inexperienced players whose strengths he would not know how to use!!! i’m sorry bro, but their current production just would not translate/carry over under WOODSON.

By The Flash

September 25, 2007 4:00 PM | Link to this

Mykmyman Ships passing in the night. What I said was, if the Colangelos had matched, and I still insist that there is no way that that happens, but if they did, how much worser could it have been.

Putting aside other potential signings that year, let’s say BK was telling the truth and no one else worth anything would have come that summer, this is what we know could have happened:

1. BK would have had to draft Paul or Williams because the guy who he thought was going to be his point (he said so incessently), that is JJ, would not have been here. So the glaring need for one of two key elements on any team, a point, would have been handled and cheaply.

2. The Al Harrington thing would not have festered the entire season. A trade with Denver for NeNe and amybe a pick, who knows. But, the season tanked anyway even with Al and JJ, so what would have been the diff?

3. No JJ, then BK has to take Roy and not Shelden. Now, since you already have Paul or Williams at the point and Roy at the two, are you going to spend 25 large on Speedy? Course not.

I’m not taking this any further. Much better informed minds than I can if they like (your leadin Andoman). But, I say that what you would have had with just what I presented was a stellar backcourt and 100 million freakin dollars to spend, plus high draft choices that we no longer got.

See Myk, we got that far and not a single guess. Not one.

And, what did we lose. The last two seasons could have been how much worse?

Hey, the Spirit could have used that money and bought my guy out. But then, who would they have had to blame for their own and Billy’s profound muff.

By HB Ando

September 25, 2007 3:23 PM | Link to this

Joe, I knew, writing it, that I was leaving you justifiable room to question some of the inferential leaps in logic I was using. I have to thank Flash for saving me the time of responding, by characterizing my intent almost perfectly.

3 first rounders, for a restricted free agent, should get you a franchise big man, because that’s what wins championships. BK has tried to have it both ways, taking the best potential talent, regardless of position, when he drafted Marvin and passed on need, in Paul and Deron. Then switching course, and passing on the best talent, regardless of position, and reaching for, ostensibly, need, in taking an undersized power forward, who he specifically and publicly stated would address our need for interior shot blocking, but who then provided nothing in the way of that skill.

Bottom line is that he passed on the last two rookie’s of the year.

If returning to a position of defying everything I post forces you into a corner of support for Billy-Freakin’-Knight, you have no one to blame but yourself. And to piggyback on Sekou’s outlandish post, you’ll have simply been played.

Those names you quote are the exact reason why it was absolutely necessary that we take any measures possible to strengthen our center position (though I guess you missed the Jefferson to Minny trade, for a guy named Garnett). With the exception of Dalembert, who is still improving, and with the addition of Garnett to your list, everyone of those guys mentioned will score at will on this team this season. That’s predictable. So where’s the obvious counter move? Horford?

Duh!?

By mykhalc

September 25, 2007 3:17 PM | Link to this

your crystal ball of what would have happened had JJ not been signed really amazes me. somehow you think ALL events/outcomes remain the same in the b’ball universe EXCEPT this one ‘mishandled?’ FA signin’!!???!! you KNOW for a fact that ROY would have had the same impact/production playin’ for the HAWKS under WOODSON that he’s had in POR. AMAZIN’!!!

By The Flash

September 25, 2007 2:48 PM | Link to this

And the wheels on the bus go round and round.

Phoenix needed, still needs, a big. JJ was completely fungible, and they were going to have to pay big bucks to others. No way they matched. Have you heard one commentator in the last two playoffs suggest that Phoenix had blown their chance at a championship by unloading JJ? Even one? No!

If Phoenix had matched, there were plenty of options to both strengthen this team in the short run and have all those picks for the long run.

Adding JJ and then tanking with Al was horrendous. Lead to a ridiculously subpar season on the court and in the pocket book. Sold the future for a giant step backwards.

What the draft picks would have produced, who the Hawks might have signed for less bucks, Ando spelled that out ad nausium back in the day. Now, he correctly points to the Roy miss, and says, quite correctly, really how much would you miss JJ if you had Roy in the worst case scenario and Phoenix had matched. Not much has to be the answer, at least through today: everybody agrees that the on-court performance of the team has been mucho disappointing the past two seasons and the fan support a disaster.

If you don’t know when you have a winning hand and must play it, you cannot GM. BK had it and inexplicably for a pro blinked. I have speculated why he didn’t go all in on the Colangelos and it will do nothing constructive now to repeat it.

Suffice it to say, it was and remains a collosally bad move.

By mykhalc

September 25, 2007 1:08 PM | Link to this

FLASH, my man, come on now…ROY is JJ equal??? no way bro. i’m sorry. let’s keep it real ;-) you and ANDO can’t have it both ways…sayin’ no FA’s want to come to ATL and then say BK overpaid. BK did what he had to do to get JJ in ATL. and NO MATTER how much we argue back and forth there is NO WAY ANY OF US KNOW what the COANGELOS would have done…PERIOD!!! this is what we know…BK MADE SURE the deal was gonna get done!!! it’s what beggars (our beloved team) have to do when you are scrapin’ the bottom of the barrel!!!

and as much as i appreciate your loyalty to your buddy BELKIN, just because he tells you somethin’ DOES NOT make it so…shrewd businessman or not, NO WAY to know what the COANGELOS would have done!!

we’ve beat that to one death for 2 yrs now….

By The Flash

September 25, 2007 11:51 AM | Link to this

Astro BK should have drafted Roy becasue he was by far the best pick, and because this team desparately needed, and still needs, a guy like him to round out its offense.

The case for why BK gave away far too much to get JJ has been made time and again. It was evident to many that the picks were unnecessary to get it done, and that this team would have progressed on much the same terms as it has if lightening had struck and the Colangelos would have matched.

You have always opposed that view insisting that overpaying was the right move because JJ is oh so valuable. Many, including myself, pointed to any number of scenarios that might have made the Hawks just as strong and standing in a much stronger position in ensuing years had the deal been dashed by a match, which, btw, would never have freakin happened.

Now, seems to me that Andoman is taking that longstanding dialogue with you as a given. He has pointed out in the past that you were wrong in real time, and then in hindsight in the immediate aftermath. Now, Andoman reminds you how wrong that assessment was, since BK would have gotten at least JJ’s equal two years later without spending 70 large and throwing away the picks and the future.

No, it is not that BK should have seen Roy on the horizon, just that he should have seen JJ’s equal on the horizon and not gone all girlie on this team and dropped his proverbial draws to get something that was his for the taking. Your refusal to see that is a blind spot in one otherwise very, very astute basketball observer (can either of us believe I’m not only actually saying this, but meanin it? NBR, my man, even while you are wrong as rain on this particular one).

And, hey, I would be remise if I did not acknowledge the always convincing logic, supported by penetrating analysis, of he who has emerged from the very bowels of the earth to share with us his wisdom, my friend and yours, the Thinkingman.

NBL, bro, and yeap, as you so eloquently put it, winning would definitely do it.

By Astro Joe

September 25, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this

Ando, since you always say that I twist your words, are you suggesting that BK should have drafted Roy 2 years after spending $70M on JJ because he is a younger version? And then what, trade or bench JJ? Or are you suggesting that BK should have known 2 years earlier that a younger and cheaper version of JJ would be available through the draft? Or are you suggesting that Roy and JJ should have been paired together and that Roy playing 20 minutes/game would have done wonders for our franchise? You paired Roy and JJ together in your previous entry (or did I misunderstand that), but I’m trying to understand your point. (And wouldn’t you have said something like, “BK must be admitting that sending all those assets to Phoenix was a mistake since he turns around and drafts a player with comparable skills 2 years later”.)

And by they way, can you really predict 3-4 years out how a guy will perform based on 1 year? What did you forecast for Deron Williams after his lackluster rookie season? Did you project that Damon Stoudemire would never be much better than his ROY year? Did you know Channing Frye would have a sophomore slump after his surprising inaugral season? Wow, you’re good.

There is no doubt that Woody’s hand come have been better had BK been perfect in his drafting. Absolutely no doubt about it. But would he have played that hand any better than he plays his current one? Chris Mullin has been less than perfect in both drafts and free agency, hired a real coach and made it to the playoffs. He also had the latitude to correct his mistakes on guys like Dunleavy, Murphy, Foyle, Jasivicious (sp?) and Fisher by having owners willing to take back comparable salaries or buy players out altogether. Why is the drafting of POB not a major sin? Because Nellie took the hand that was dealt and got them to the playoffs. Coaching matters. And winning as a team trumps individual roster decisions.

And one last question, how many non-playoff teams in our Eastern Conference have these mythical centers that supposedly guarantee success? 7 non-playoff teams in the conference last year, how many of them are lacking a center (or legit post-playing PF)? Sixers (Dalembert), Knicks (Curry), Celtics (Jefferson), Bobcats (Okafor), Bucks (Bogut) & Pacers (O’Neal). All but the Hawks had a C or someone to play in the post. Do you really think that Erick Dampier or Jamaal Magloire would propel this team into post-season?

By smartguy

September 25, 2007 10:06 AM | Link to this

Hmmmm. I have to agree with Ray and Doc on a few points. Fisrt, Mr. SS, I’m not sure exactly how it is you think you played us. I thought I was the only one who missed your pattern, but obviously not.

Already knew Marvin was a laid back cat, and I, personally, have no problem with that.

Already knew Woody was a total DA (more on that in a minute).

Regarding Salim, what you think we should have gotten out of your interview is not what I remember at all. I didn’t go back to read it, but if anything, I thought it put Salim closer to coach and the team.

And Sekou, a blog or two ago when discussing Salim’s playing time, you thought it was obvious that Salim would provide valuable points on the board, and that because it was so obvious it will certainly be put into application by the coaching staff. Most of us have seen the same thing, and just what makes Salim more obvious for this year than in the past? If anything, the addition of AC Law reduces our need for Salim this year.

Nonetheless, my point is that you thought that because something was/is obvious, then it will nesessarily be put into action. If you really think Woody will do the obvious and sensible thing, then you’re the one getting played (and big time).

Many of us have seen clear and sensible ways to improve this team (Salim being an example), yet for some reason Woody doesn’t agree.

Sekou, maybe you and Woody have been setting us up for three years now, and maybe the Hawks will win the championship this year. I, for one, am so tired of Woody’s excuses. Four consecutive sentences setting up the anual “injuries excuse.” What a joke this guy is. What a sorry excuse for a head coach. I feel sorry for our players having to play for that clown. Hopefully its only for one more year….

By mike

September 25, 2007 9:52 AM | Link to this

Sekou, despite the fact that I didn’t buy into your ploy, I may not agree with everything that has been said, but I agree with the point the guys are making. There have been way worst circumstances that other coaches have had to perform under in the NBA then just Woodson. I especially don’t agree with guys anointing these young guys like CPaul, DWilliams, and Roy superstars with just 2 or 3 years worth of NBA experience. We all know injuries play vital role in any athlete career. It’s too early to tell how all the young guys career will turn out. In sport they’re a star one day and scrub the next.

I agree that Woodson does deserve some credit for galvanizing these young guys through this tumultuous time with the organization and the death of a player of one his player. Who was a 7 footer BTW. But hey he’s been rewarded for that. When you look around the NBA at coaches winning records, there’s not a coach in the league that has kept his job with a winning percentage like Woodson. You of all people know that at the end of day, coaches are only judge by wins and looses. The elite coaches are judge on whether they win a championship or not. So Woodson ain’t getting a raw deal. I for one, going into this season say maybe this guy finally gets it. But I will be as surprise as the rest of the guys if it happen.

HB and Doc is there a Pulitzer Prize for writing blogs, hey you’ll got my nomination, heck I might even throw Ray in there. They’re a little wordy, but hey keep doing things guys. I love it, and Sekou does too. Like you said Doc, Welcome to the liars den!! Peace out fellas GO HAWKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By doc

September 25, 2007 6:37 AM | Link to this

ando, d’antoni did just that for a year win huge without a big, without amare, coming up with some sort of a rotation that included diaw at the five slot. did anyone see that coming when amare went down? as ray says they still really dont have the big five guy in amare and that has hurt them in my opinion and stated last year at trade deadline. they still dont rely on any excuse no matter the situation. true he does have nash but that year he went a long way with marion and nash and a few guys that will probably not be slotted for superstar selection. he has had that team at the brink of the finals except for some official high jinks without the true big as i still dont think of amare as a banger or with a bench of goons. as far as nash, remeber he wasnt enough of a superstar when he left dallas for cuban to throw money his way so even something happened to nash when he got to phoenix and under the influence of that style of play, you think?

that coach, UNLIKE OURS SEKOU, has never taken the out that there were injuries that has affected his team and their success. for example the year jj was with them and busted his face and missed the series start with san antonio to the year amare was out the whole year to last year when nash went to the bench in the critical minutes with a bisted nose or amare and diaw sat, they were still competitive not suffering the largest point differential in the league like our hawks, NO? i would love to have seen what d’antoni would have done here. for that matter a similar transformation took place in toronto last year when colangio told his coach to use what he has got and quit looking for the perfect pieces to play his game.

you are right on when you say this organization continues to use the excuses and woody has already used his for the upcoming year the big IF of. “we will do well IF we have no injuries”. i truly ask you what team doesnt have injuries in a season? it isnt all about billy though he is your prime whippin boy, ando. mine still starts at the top including belkin, flash as he is definitely part of the problem rather than the solution just only i agree he isnt all the problem. that is where they continue to do it the “right way” according to sekou, slowly; cough, cough. fortunately, for this franchise, a few of us heavnt lost interest while they did it and have become the clippers of the east and the warriors poster boys.

mrh, those numbers get even more revealing when you look at clusters of hawks playing to gether which is how this game is usually played as a five man game rather than a two man game. unfortunatly, marvin is a HUGE liability when you look at the cold facts no matter who you put him with. the top four for us are jj, josh, ZAZA in spite of those dogging him and chills. maybe horford on the court with them at the end of games will make a difference, just domt know who will be at point can acie put up positive numbers with is palymates and solve the riddle? solo is the bottom so dont expect him there at the end of games unless you want to lose. i suggest some of you go there before you start relying too much on your memory as to who is a dog vs who is getting it done. they use this type of info in hockey all the time so it can be relevant in b’ball as well as the defense category of stops instead of the point totals that woody is soooo inclined to use. i think he would rather lose and keep the score under 95 for them than win and allow them over the 100 mark. go figure.

By ray

September 25, 2007 2:45 AM | Link to this

Still, a change for the better IS a change for the better.

By ray

September 25, 2007 2:44 AM | Link to this

Myk, I can’t really argue with that. You could say that both a different coach and a different GM would do better, regardless of the ownership situation. I’m inclined to agree with you. The question would be HOW MUCH better.

By mykhalc

September 25, 2007 2:18 AM | Link to this

BIG RAY, i get it regardin’ the roster, as i know you do. but i’ll use this as my analogy…we got/had MV7 as QB, 6ft tall, mobile as hell!! would WOODSON continually leave him in the pocket sayin’, ‘at some point he’s gonna be able to see over the line because that’s what i teach and know to work??’ or would he say, ‘how do i make this cat’s strengths work for the team? how do i put him in position to see the field??’

well my vote says WOODSON puts in a ‘SHORTER’ line instead rollin’ him out!!! should work right???!!!!LOL

but seriously bro, regardless of the roster’s imbalanced nature right now, i just think other seasoned coaches would have done more with less!!

By mykhalc

September 25, 2007 1:54 AM | Link to this

BIG RAY, your last post got me real curious!!???!!!??? so i went back in the archives!!! VERY INTERESTIN’!!!

SEKOU, i see somethin’ even if i DO NOT know what it is!!LOL all i can say is ‘a brotha can dream ‘til sunday!!!’LOL

By ray

September 25, 2007 1:48 AM | Link to this

Mykhalc, I think the point is more that there was a legit pivot in Phoenix in Stoudamire, even though he’s more a pf than a center. He’s still legit as a more-than-competent big with good height, strength, and mobility. However, with something less, even D’Antoni couldn’t enjoy the success he has. Even with Nash, it is limited (although better than most situations without a dynamic player like Nash).

One coach I know who has been able to do things without a truly balanced roster and steady bigs is Don Nelson. He is a master of mismatches (something Woody isn’t). But even Golden State has better present and future players in the pivot than do we. And that’s no insult to Horford, who hasn’t had the chance to show us what he’s capable of yet. To be more specific, match the Warriors’ “big” roster fillers to ours. GS: You have two 7-footers in O’Bryant and Perovic (don’t know much about this cat), Biedrins, Croshere, B. Wright (uh, okay he’s a pf).

We’ve got Pachulia, Shelden, Horford, Solomon, and L.Wright. Slava will probably go elsewhere and Bautista ( a true tough guy) is already gone. Let’s hope that Horford is a megabeast. But he could really use a steady running mate that’s at least just as tough, and a bit taller.

But such is our usual lament.

By ray

September 25, 2007 1:23 AM | Link to this

Sekou,

Uh..I thought your point was provocation? Provocation is the intent to illicit reaction, right? Sooooo…what’s with the thin skin comments? To me, that’s more of a disclaimer than anything else. People poke, get a reaction, and then act surprised when they get it.

What’s the confusion? If it weren’t for a little thin skin, your provocation would be in vain and your blog nearly bereft of inhabitants. Come now old fellow, play not so coy and false. It becomes you not, and anyone with a brain knows much better than that. Still, it IS entertainment, is it not?

As to your concluding dramatics, I do believe I follow the pattern (if one would call it that) rather well right about now, and it only remains to see if my guarded guess is right or not. Nope, no predictions out loud. Not my style.

By ray

September 25, 2007 1:12 AM | Link to this

Personally, I think a revitalized coaching situation will improve things to a point. Will it solve things? Of course not. I don’t believe a solution is something we can expect any time soon, by ANY stretch of the imagination. At least not the solutions that each of us may envision.

You could argue that change means Woody goes, and somebody else comes in. Then you would still have an unbalanced roster (as Ando and many others have pointed out). You would still be wondering which is the lesser of however many evils, because Billy is still calling the shots. And you’d be paranoid about any trades or free agency moves…because most of us still are unhappy with Billy’s methods,visions, and results.

You could argue that Billy is the weak link. And in a vaccum, you would be right. But would it be over? Sure, you now have the possibility of getting a person who is more competent (by how much would be the question). But that begs the question of whether or not a competent GM could overcome the limits of current ownership (such that it is). Keep in mind, if you’re completely concentrated on the transgressions of Billy Knight, then you have succeeded in limiting only yourself and your ability to see beyond that one person, that one factor. This is not a denial that Billy has made this team what it is. But you cannot forget that he was allowed to do so.

You could finally argue that a change of ownership is what’s needed. Again, right as rain. But here’s where the buck stops for now. There is a reason they are called owners. The only way they get out is if they can’t survive or some court order gets rid of them. These guys will fight until they financially die or get too scared to go on.

Or, and this may be more likely…they somehow cut Belkin out and bring in another money-bags guy. And everyone, fans included, would be intensely paranoid that a repeat situation would crop up. Either way, ownership stays in place until displaced. So let’s say you boycott them until the place is drained dry (not easily done, people will still buy tickets). But say it works. And ownership is run out…and the organization crumbles..no more Hawks. Did you win?

Right now, all that’s left is the enjoyment of a sport and the support of a team. That’s it. That and hope, however false. As an ardent fan of the Hawks, I also have to say that I can’t get enough of this game. I would say “I love this game” but that’s probably copyrighted, heh! So in the end, the failure of the Hawks organization, no matter how disheartening and disappointing, will not tear me from my favorite sport.

By mykhalc

September 25, 2007 12:55 AM | Link to this

ANDO, see that’s hard for me to believe. that a coach like D’ANTONI would not have had ‘considerably’ better results runnin’ this squad with ALL things bein’ the same. look what he got outta DIAW, even if only for a year!!???!!

see to me, it was no accident that the team played better against west coast teams. it allowed them to play to their strengths, which we all know are not many. but it did not FORCE them to do the things that they have the most trouble doin’. or as you/and others have said on more than one occassion, it’s what the lack of a balance roster exposed. and it was this continual lack of adjustment that WOODSON has shown thru-out his tenure as HC. and despite the lack of defiant or stubborn impression SEKOU gets regardin’ WOODSON, i get the opposite impression regardin’ him as a HC.

i do think this team has more talent than last year. and yes there are still issues that need to be addressed. i just hate to think of even a ‘slightly’ more talented team headed by WOODSON. at what point will the light bulb go off for him regardin’ AL or ACIE???? the ‘08-‘09 trainin’ camp????

i guess i’m at a place with WOODSON as HC that you are with BK as GM. and it ain’t a pretty place for either one of us!!!LOL and just maybe the upgrade is as close as LARRY DREW!!??!!! we can get him quicker than any non-roster center at this point!!!

By ray

September 25, 2007 12:43 AM | Link to this

Here we go again…

By HB Ando

September 25, 2007 12:16 AM | Link to this

Myc, only if the new coach is a legitimate center……….

You can hire a new coach, to take some short term heat off of Billy and the Spirit, but I refer back to my opinion that we’re bottom-10, league-wise at PG, and bottom-5 at center. Even Mike D’Antoni, without Nash and Amare to address those slots on this squad, couldn’t turn this team in to a contender. I’m trying to keep this assessment as objective as possible. Compare our match ups with the rest of the east. Tell me a team where you see us with a clear match up advantage….

By mykhalc

September 24, 2007 11:55 PM | Link to this

ANDO, tho i do not believe WOODSON is the least of the problems, i DO believe he is the easiest and quickest problem to address with the most IMMEDIATE impact!!!

By mrH

September 24, 2007 10:57 PM | Link to this

Sekou, had I known you wanted stuff for these guys to discuss, I would’ve hooked you up. LOL

From 82games.com, these 5 player pairs most benefitted the team’s overall play (Net +/-):

1. Stoudamire/Smith (+1.2)
2. Childress/M.Williams (+0.3)
3. J.Johnson/Childress (-0.2)
4. Childress/Pachulia (-0.2)
5. J.Johnson/Pachulia (-0.8)

These were the worst player pairs:

1. J.Johnson/S.Williams (-10.3)
2. Claxton/M.Williams (-8.9)
3. Childress/S.Williams (-8.8)
4. Wright/M.Williams (-8.2)
5. Wright/Smith (-8.1)

Discuss.

By peter

September 24, 2007 10:52 PM | Link to this

Honestly, I saw all of the positivity in each and every interview posted.

The Hawks will make the playoffs because they said they will and so it is.

Remember they were 30-52 with a banged up roster. When they are healthy the Hawks wreak havoc on teams.

Everything said in these interviews has been out of their own admission. Sekou did put a gun to their head. It was refreshing to hear Salim admit to his old ways that prevented his success. Woodson admitted he needs to pick up the pace on the floor.

The depth at every position is also promising 4 - 5 Point guards 2 - 3 sg
3 small forwards 4 versatile power forwards 2 - 3 centers

Just stay healthy Go Hawks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

By bill

September 24, 2007 10:29 PM | Link to this

Tonight’s the first time I’ve come back to the SS blog in many of month, and after reading the latest posts, I agree with HB Ando…this blog is the only thing that gives the Hawks a pulse within the ATL sports marketplace…and that’s sad. There was more intrest whenI had season tickets during the Hubie Brown/Frank Layton era ( John Drew/Fast Eddie Johnson for you youngsters out there)!

By ray

September 24, 2007 7:53 PM | Link to this

SEKOU,

I figure I’m not the only one, but if you read my 4:14 post from the last blog, you’ll see that I very lightly hinted at the possibility of you having “planned it all along.” Heck, those were almost my exact words. You scoundrel, you. I had a strong suspicion that this is what you were doing, but didn’t want to accuse you unfairly (although some people seem to LIVE for that). As it is, I wasn’t sure as to why you were doing things the way you were. Well done, blog master. Not that you need to be told that…you know your stuff. Or we’d be bored and disgusted and…well, just not spending time here.

By HB Ando

September 24, 2007 6:23 PM | Link to this

Joe, let’s take a look at the numbers behind your Roy as ROY, by default, argument (and let’s put in the context of my earlier comment that Billy traded 3 first rounders, for a restricted free agent, who is, essentially, an older version of Roy):

Post all-star break:

Roy, 23 games, 48% FG, 81% FT, 1.3 3’s/game on 46%, 1.1 steals, 4.7 rebounds and 4.9 assists.

Johnson, 9 games, 45% FG, 73% FT, 1.8 3’s/game on 35%, 1.3 steals, 4.3 rebounds and 4.9 assists.

We passed on the younger version, who’s numbers as a rookie matched the numbers of the guy we paid 3 first rounders and $70 million to. Tell me how that’s Woody’s fault.

Woody may not be the answer, but the GM, to which he owes his job, has handed him the most f&*%$#d up roster in the league.

SS says this team committed its to doing it the slow, patient way, via youth and the draft. But the truth is that they gave away 3 first rounders for a guy who doesn’t bring anything to the table that the guy they passed on, for Shelden-freakin’-Williams, is already doing by the end of his rookie year.

As much as I’ve panned that deal, over the last few years, I’ve always agreed that we won’t know what the final cost is, until after those picks are used. But in looking at what Roy is doing, and what we passed on to take Shelden, I don’t have to wait until Phoenix makes it’s top-3 pick next summer. Billy has ruined this franchise for the next decade. And he’s not done by any stretch of the imagination. I’m confident he’s got a few, last moves (or, non-moves, as some of us have liked to call his failings), which will effectively finish this team off.

I don’t care how bad Woody is. He didn’t pass on Chris Paul, Deron Willams and Brandon Roy. He didn’t give up Rondo, Diaw and what will likely be OJ Mayo, for a guy who’s roughly as good as Roy, the guy he could have had for the price of a rookie contract.

Billy Knight is the stupidest GM to have grace the NBA. And the fact that he still has his job means that the Atlanta Spirit are the stupidest owners in the history of the NBA. As bad as Woody is, he’s not the worst NBA coach ever. So if you put it in it’s proper context, he’s the least of our problems.

By A Thinking Fan

September 24, 2007 6:13 PM | Link to this

As has been stated before: Hawks - JUST WIN! WINNING TAKES CARE OF ALL THIS SHI*!

By HB Ando

September 24, 2007 6:01 PM | Link to this

And the award for stating the obvious goes to (drum roll, please):

Sekou Smith, for the following gem of an insight:

“The folks in power aren’t as into abrupt change the way WE all have advocated at times.”

Gee, bro, ‘ya think?!

Throw in this bit of organizational deceit:

“The Hawks are trying to get out of here the old fashioned way, slowly but surely”, which is nothing more than a lie, to buy time for sucking and making horrible front office moves. I mean, there is some rationale in hedging your bet (or in this case, your so-called strategy for a patient rebuilding, by blaming years of non-improvement on a “doing it the right way takes patience” theme).

But Billy Knight and the boys might as well tell me “the checks in the mail”, or that “this is gonna hurt them a lot more than it hurts me”. There’s another line that comes to mind, that college boys like to tell their dates, towards then end of an evening, but I’ve got to draw a line of decency somewhere (though folks representing the Hawks seem to have no moral shame when it comes to yanking our collective chain).

SS, I don’t know if you’ve so much as pulled one over on us, but, rather, continued to function as the Hawks’ respirator; 3 years of CPR, via the written word.

I will say this, if it weren’t for you, and this blog, and it’s 12 or so regulars, I’m not sure many folks in Atlanta would even know that we have an NBA franchise.

I don’t care what the owners say about you, and the AJC, I think you’re a benevolent, stand-up guy…………

I’m out like a successful, strategic move by Billy Knight.

By Astro Joe

September 24, 2007 5:45 PM | Link to this

Flash don’t get me started on draft picks. I have no idea how you evaluate draft picks without evaluating the coaching staff responsible for nurturing those picks. To assume that Roy would have done for this team what he did for Portland is simplistic and unrealistic. (By the way, dude missed 30% of his games and essentially won the ROY by default in a draft that was always considered of lesser quality. I don’t know this for sure, but I would guess no other player has missed 30% of his games and taken home that award. And he did have injury issues in college so let’s not pretend dude was without risk).

Do you think Darko would have been better off had he been drafted by Dallas instead of Detroit? Do you think a rookie would experience the same success whether they “grow up” in San Antonio’s championship culture or in the Clippers culture of futility? Did Golden State make the playoffs because of Mullin’s draft picks or because of Nellie? Will Horford have the same rookie production rather he is playing with the Hawks or the Nets? Sorry, but anyone trying to convince me that Deron Williams under Sloan’s guidance would have been the same Deron Williams under Woodson’s guidance is going to have to work long and hard to make me a believer. COACHING MATTERS! And it can’t be ignored when evaluating recently drafted players.

By newkid

September 24, 2007 5:32 PM | Link to this

“… wondering when lake lanier becomes buford puddle.”

Now there’s a REAL story doc.

By doc

September 24, 2007 5:23 PM | Link to this

comon sekou we are just palying your game here, nuttin serious about this tribe of blog z fools.

what are you saying, that we cant talk back to the big dog? maybe, it helps to worry about the little things here so we can relieve oirselves of the urge to do it in daily “real” life. jsut talking the minutiae of b’ball and loving it. it is far healthier than talking politics saving the world or wondering when lake lanier becomes buford puddle.

By Sekou K. Smith

September 24, 2007 5:03 PM | Link to this

The skin is so ridiculously thin around here it cracks me up. So I played you. Big deal. Everyone’s playing until these cats hit the floor in November. It’s all just rhetoric until then (Ando some of us are better at that than others).

Two things stick out to me thus far that haven’t changed since the moment I set foot inside Philips Arena:

1) The folks in power aren’t as into abrupt change the way WE all have advocated at times. (You’re not hitting the lottery and movin’ out of the hood around here Hawks fans. The Hawks are trying to get out of here the old fashioned way, slowly but surely). Will it work? Who knows? But don’t expect any magic because the risk involved there is clearly something that the franchise isn’t willing to take at this point.

2) No one will be convinced that the Hawks are making progress until it shows in the win-loss column. I knew that when I got here in January of 2005 and they were stuck on five wins (or something preposterous like that). It’s a matter of fact. No one was sure the Warriors were legit until they made the playoffs last year, snapping their 13-year playoff drought. Now that the Hawks own the league mark for postseason futility, they are the proud owners of the same burden. So with that as your only true test of progress, why get all bent out of shape over the minutiae.

By newkid

September 24, 2007 4:08 PM | Link to this

ANDO and mykhalc both giving us their best impersonations of the infamous Howard Cosell by ‘telling it like it is’. Good job guys! NOW the board’s cookin’ again.

By mykhalc

September 24, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this

WOODSON, as HC for another year, is a set-up!!! in fact, an on-goin’ set-up!! unless you have news of an upcomin’ coachin’ change, trade of SPEEDY, re-signin’ of JS, SOMETHIN’ NEW!!!, then YAWN YAWN YAWN!!! but like you said ‘you got a job to do!!’ and SEKOU, I DO enjoy the way you do your job. but nothin’ at this point can get me excited EXCEPT CHANGE!!!! and i’ll start with change at HC!!! bringin’ in the right cat to lead this team, allowin’ them to use their athleticism, speed to spark an up-tempo offense, will bring some change in the win/loss columns IMHO.

i hope your upcomin’ set-up reveals some change!!!

By HB Ando

September 24, 2007 3:20 PM | Link to this

Flash, thank you for saying, succinctly, what I was trying to get at. These guys, as a whole, either allude to shifting the blame, or deny there is anything, or anyone, that justifies blame.

Yet here we are with the laughingstock of the NBA as our home team. And it goes all the way back to Billy publicly saying he just knows more about basketball than anyone else (the press and the fans). And to him saying he just laughs when he hears folks saying we need a point guard (not long before he took one, finally, but not until after he wasted $25 million on an oft-injured, career back up).

For the last three years, there simply has not been one, single point of, or example of, accountability, for unacceptable and inexcusable, utter failure.

I said that instead of making decisions that gave this team the POSSIBILITY of competing for championships, down the road, that this team was being constructed to compete for mediocrity, with making the eighth seed the realistic goal for each upcoming season.

Now, 3 years later, we have arrived at that very place.

Without drastic change, both on and off the court, this team offers nothing compelling for any fan, other than those who are basically addicted to following NBA basketball (which pretty much accounts for the regulars on this blog, myself, obviously, included).

By HB Ando

September 24, 2007 3:05 PM | Link to this

It makes me feel dirty, and cheap, that Sekou puppet-mastered me in such a clever fashion.

Shame on you, Sekou Smith.

It’s funny (sad) how all the folks involved with the Hawks talk about how they’re accountable, with no excuses, for the product, but the in almost any other NBA town, the performance of the product would have clearly led to drastic changes; in the front office, the coaching staff, and on the roster. Yet here we are, going into another season, with nothing but the forced optimism of those most responsible for perpetual failure.

The owners back Billy, in spite of horrifyingly bad decisions. Billy backs Woody, despite repeated coaching decisions, that go far beyond “losing due to youth”. Everyone says it’s business as usual, despite it being pretty clear that the ownership fiasco has only compounded poor general management and coaching.

Hell, I’d respect them more if they came out and blamed Belkin for their lack of roster changes. But you can’t blame Belkin for Billy’s draft decisions. And, as Joe pointed out regarding the likes of Batista, you can’t blame Billy for Woody’s confusing choices for playing time, and substitution patterns.

So spin away, Mr. Smith (and I know it’s not your intended agenda to pump expectations of this team up), but, rather, to lay it out their as accessibly, and directly as possible.

But one has to go back to that old adage about doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results (I believe it was described as the definition of stupidity). Our PG situation is still, at best, bottom-ten in the league. And our center slot is bottom-five. And our most improved, young players, all play the same position. I don’t see how that equates to a playoff run.

Show me a trade that balances this roster out, done without giving up way more than we’re getting (read: not trading an NBA-level starter and two first rounders, for a borderline all-star, whose role could have been replaced with the simple drafting of the younger version, in Roy).

Until then, spare me the “this is the year we display the results of our secret, master plan” nonsense. It’s insulting. And weak ticket sales will confirm that no one else is buying either.

By The Flash

September 24, 2007 3:01 PM | Link to this

Astro Like we used to say in the old neighborhood, Wait up! Why you pushin Doc on this, Levison was quoted as saying that they didn’t miss on a single deal because of the ownership fight. Not a one!!!

If the guy is lyin even now, you know what they say about how it starts at the top. If he ain’t, he believed all along just like Belkin that you build through the draft and it will take time. We still have to explain those draft picks.

Oops, I forgot, that was the old me for another time. But, hey, when you go pickin on my man, the good Doctor, I forget myself sometimes.

By doc

September 24, 2007 2:51 PM | Link to this

hey newk, you forgot the part about making baskets and playing defense. heh heh.

glad to see you rapping a bit with us. it is going to get warmer here within the next few weeks as expectaions rise and possibly diverge.

By newkid

September 24, 2007 1:56 PM | Link to this

Soooo, you set us up, and the reactions were as you expected. The question is: for what are you setting us up? You’ve got most of us really anticipating the punch line Sekou. Hope you didn’t inadvertently set YOUR bar too high. You’ve gotta really come correct Sunday to justify your build-up. Looking forward to it.

Let me try this other matter again. Is there possibly a trade brewing after the ‘30-day’ period following the recent court decision? If so, do you anticipate that it’ll make us more effective in the new ‘rebound, run, & shoot’ style Woody says he’ll institute? Would you even consider giving us a hint if you knew?

By Astro Joe

September 24, 2007 1:37 PM | Link to this

Doc, here the question I would ask BK… during the time that we secured the #3 and 11 picks and right up to draft night, it appeared you were ready to deal one or both picks for a veteran who could provide immediate dividends. While you never said that outright, you certainly seemed ready to to use those draft assets for a vet who could help us with our post-season destination plans. And while we were rumored to be in discussion with several prominent players (Gasol, Camby & Amare), we eventually settled for 2 more rookies, giving us 8 players on their rookie contracts entering next week’s camp. 8 rookie contracts. Did you hear me? 8 rookie contracts. Okay, so here’s the question. Do you still want us to believe that the ownership divorce has had NO bearing on our ability to build a team that has 8 players on their rookie contracts?

Doc, you’re absolutely right about what happened in Memphis. I have long said that BK’s greatest weakness is his ability to hire a head coach. I appreciate his willingness to not hire re-treads and to give experienced head coaches an opportunity to become the next Avery Johnson, Doc Rivers or Nate McMillan. But if given a choice of Larry Drew or Del Harris tomorrow, I would go with Leslie Nielsen. (Of ocurse, I’m on record as being high on Bill Laimbeer, now that Adelman is no longer an option).

By doc

September 24, 2007 12:00 PM | Link to this

will the next q&a be the predictable surprise of hearing what billy has to say and be as predictable as the rest with the mantra that joe speaks of. better change something if you intend to spoon feed that as one more dose sekou. heh heh

aj may have outed the organization’s only frail marketing ploy of, “it is all about the fans and getting to the playoffs”. sadly it is not about winning them.

oh i know, first things first. right?

NOT!

By Willie Coyote

September 24, 2007 11:40 AM | Link to this

tough crowd

By It's time

September 24, 2007 11:33 AM | Link to this

SK, really, really enjoyed the player interviews throughout the summer.

This town is ready for the Hawks to win. And it all comes down to Billy Knight. Drafting Marvin Williams over Chris Paul and Deron Williams was probably the worst draft decision in franchise history. Drafting Sheldon Williams at No. 5 is almost as bad. And then Billy had to draft Al Horford, a nice pick, but drafted to make up for the other two.

The last three No. 1 picks, all in the top five, on power forwards? Signing Speedy Claxton, with his senior citizen kness, to a five year $25 mil contract…are you kidding?
How about three years at $3 mil per year??? Now we have three old man point guards on the roster, Speedy, Lue and Johnson.

People here love Josh Smith and Joe Johnson, and we like Childress and Zaza. Can’t blame Coach Woodson for the hand he’s been dealt. We want a winner, and for that to happen, we need Billy Knight gone…ASAP.

By smartguy

September 24, 2007 11:27 AM | Link to this

vomit. blahhhhhh. Woody sucks. period.

By Astro Joe

September 24, 2007 11:11 AM | Link to this

Sounds like the marketing consultants came up with a “our fans deserve a competitive team” mantra for all of the Hawks management. Yawn!

By doc

September 24, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this

hmmm sekou, we’ll see who has the right juxtaposition of your inquiry and intrigue wont we. it will be fun to see how it plays out. have always said that woody has seemed to keep the focus, especially two years ago and kept the team together. sometimes i think it wandered last year or was there method in (our) madness. many of the criticisms of woody are well founded as there is a body of work. is he a bobby cox who was troubled as a manager for the braves and went elsewhere to get the woins or will he do it here as these guys come into their own.let us see how he has grown as well as this team. at some point the coach will get credit for winning if he does just that.

like it or not billy has never hired a guy who has put a winning product on the floor. oh you say they were young or maybe injuries. discount it because all west did when he got to memphis when he got there was to switch coaches when things didnt go so well. he put out the cingular call to tbs for hubie to come out of the broadcasting booth and viola three pretty successful years until fratello got bumped in an effort to assure a good draft position as that franchise went through transition frighteningly similar to the hawks without the drama of an ownership breakup.

still like the team but if they win it might look like the blind squirrel after the missteps of ownership and management as they cannot justify a lot of how’s they came upon it all.