AJC > Sports > Hawks > Blog > Archives > 2007 > August > 20 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USIt’s a thin line (between good and great)
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
If the people in the cell phone industry really want to impress me, somebody come up with wireless service that sounds as clear as the old fashioned home phone. Keep all your PDAs and other assorted device wizardry to yourself and just pull off the unthinkable - a cell phone that sounds as clear as that old rotary joint we all grew up with (well, those of who remember watching Sanford and Son when it wasn’t on TV Land) and I’ll really be impressed.
The reason I bring this up is because when you’re in my line of work (no office space, no desk, no hard line phone since those other things don’t exist, wherever I plop down that day is my office and my cell phone is my work phone), good reception is a necessity.
My reception Monday morning was fabulous (thank you AT&T or Cingular or whoever my money is going to these days). On the other end of the line from Las Vegas was a good friend and NBA executive catching me up on the goings on outside of Hawksville - like most of you I have tunnel vision this time of year thinking about the Hawks and what’s on their horizon.
We were talking about players, like always, and whom we’ve both seen this summer that really stood out. He relayed a great story that relates to a bigger debate we’ve had going on since the 2004 NBA Finals, “What’s the difference between a good player and a great player?”. The story went a little something like this:
“They had a voluntary practice last night and there were only three guys there,” my buddy said. “I walked in and the two young rookies (Kevin Durant and Jeff Green) from Seattle were there. Guess who was on the other end of the floor?”
“I don’t know,” I said. “There are so many great players out there. I can’t imagine who else would have been working like that on an off day in Vegas. It had to be one of the young guys, maybe one of those Select Team cats whose trying to make an impression … man, I don’t know who it could have been.”
My friend, refusing to give up the punch line before he had to, wouldn’t budge. “Go ahead, guess,” he said. “You know who it was. You know.”
I knew right then that the guy he was talking about was none other than Kobe Bean Bryant. But before I could say another word he hit me with it. “You know it was Kobe,” he said, pounding home the point he makes to me every time we get on the subject. “That’s why he’s carrying the flag for the league right now. Love him or hate him. It’s his show.”
And he’s right. No matter how many shots I take at Kobe (I’ve actually relaxed on that in the past year or so), the NBA remains his playground. And the fact that he’s locked himself in the gym on a Sunday afternoon in Vegas when no one else (other than those promising young rookies from Seattle) saw the need is even more proof of what we all know to be true - the difference between good and great is the guy who is already there pushing himself to take his game to the ultimate level (and I know that doesn’t equate to championships in a team sport, as Kobe knows as well since his Lakers haven’t won a playoff series since Shaquille O’Neal left for Miami). But we’re talking about individual brilliance and how important it is to not only cultivate your game but that competitive fire that you hope burns inside of every gifted athlete.
The truth is, not everyone is wired that way. Even the guys that spend the entire summer in the lab tweaking their game can’t catch the top dog if he’s working like Kobe. I bet you Durant and Green took notice (and I can only imagine what was going through their impressionable minds). And for young guys there couldn’t be a more valuable lesson learned than the one they got as they walked through the door of that sweatbox of a gym …
Anyway, it was just an interesting story I thought I’d pass on. And I’d love to know what you think separates the good from the great (the line is razor thin as far as I can tell)? It’s always a fascinating topic of discussion among NBA types. And since we’re all family here … well, ya know. Have at it.
One other parting shot, actually I have two, I’ve been studying the Hawks’ schedule and trying to come up with my prediction for wins this season and I’m stuck. Have you looked at the first five games of the season? Good grief. That’s a nasty stretch for anybody, let alone a team coming off a 30-52 season. Dallas, Detroit, New Jersey, Phoenix and Boston to kick things off. It won’t take the Hawks long to set the tone for this crucial season (I’ll have my prediction ready by Wednesday).
Finally, the one other really interesting tidbit my buddy passed along is about Atlanta native, former Southwest Atlanta Christian star and almost Hawk center (it was before my time here but I’ve been told that the Hawks were one ping pong ball away from securing the No. 1 pick that year) Dwight Howard. As good as first team All-NBA center Amare Stoudemire (another almost Hawks if you’re still drinking that pre-draft Kool-Aid that had him being traded to Hawksville - NOT!) has looked in Vegas, my buddy told me he can’t imagine Team USA not starting young D. Howard. He said the big fella eats up so much more space in the paint and is a much more imposing (see shot-blocking presence) down there that you can’t risk not having him out there in a competition where much of the defense that is played will be zone. I’m greedy, so I’d play both of them together and see how that worked. But if you’re going to go with just one in the first five (as it appears Coach K will), it’ll be interesting to see who gets the nod.
Comments
By Ken Strickland
August 27, 2007 10:48 AM | Link to this
Part of the Hawks problem last yr was they tried to fit the square peg into the round hole. The team definitely needed an inside presence, especially on OFF. But Zaza’s skills and mindset is not of an inside OFF player. He is a very good jump shooter from the key in, and he can drive to the basket. He is virturally useless with his back to the basket, when is when he got most of his turnovers.
The team was constantly trying to convert players with limited to no inside skills into inside threats. It became amusing to see the teams best inside player, SWilliams, resorting to shooting jumpshots. The Hawks OFF was primarily pick and roll, which took advantage of JJ’s skills. There was little, if any, focus on establishing a postup OFF. Hence, our big men had to resort to shooting jumpers. I think we will see much more posting with the addition of Horford.
I still believe if SWilliams and Horford have good seasons, and the right deal is offered, Josh Smith will likely be traded. He is the most marketable asset we have that can be replaced. If we can avoid the injury bug, this team will be a factor in the playoff race.
By doc
August 27, 2007 9:36 AM | Link to this
g i think someone took the ball out of zaza’s hands last year. he started well and i got a sense that something changed either the team towards him or the coach’s expectations. though he has size he isnt a banger anymore than curry in ny with his huge height and weight and butt which is a qualification for this gm and coach.
last year at the beginning of the season i stated that for the hawks to be successful they needed about 45 points on avg a night between zaza and jj. that meant there was an outside and inside presence. it was there for a while and a good marker for their success. things then changed as j smith and lue began to take up points and time with the ball. that left zaza to garbage.
zaza is never going to be a good defender most likely. as an aside if you look closely and look at plus minus figures for time on the court last year his was one of the best for this team so while he was in there something must have been good. very few players were in the positive and he usually wasnt there at mop up time. i think there was something deeper and folks that look only to the surface might miss it. for the record the guy solo that so many wanted on the court and yelled for had a negative 11 so he isnt the answer either and his time on the court was not when the other team had their best on the court.
By G Money
August 27, 2007 9:03 AM | Link to this
Doc,
Sorry that I went off on you - unintentional. I just don’t see why ZaZa seems to always get the free hall pass, no comments on the blog and all the other players seem to be held more accountable. At 6’11” and 280lbs, young, and with some moves, one would think that he has the physical talent to also play defense - if he really wanted to. Camby is 6’11”. Dwight Howard is 6’11”. Boozer is 6’9”. All weigh less than Pachulia too. They are all tougher inside.
I guess the question is, “What’s my point?” I think that if ZaZa were putting in the work with the right people, in the right environment, he could possibly be an effective 20-10 guy who could play defense. If nothing else he could develop into a Kevin McHale type - great 6th man and extremely effective inside.
I hope that Lister can work some magic with ZaZa, Shelden and Horford along with JSmith to create a much stronger presence in the middle. However, as everyone says, it’s the work in the off season that determines success during the season. Let’s keep our fingers crossed.
By doc
August 26, 2007 8:57 PM | Link to this
g money, dont take it quite so serious as that comment was more made with tongue firmly in my cheek. go back and read it so you might make the distinction in the future before you go on a tirade.
it was humorous to think that his “good feeling about his international team” might translate into a real prediction for hawks success for the upcoming year. that my friend is a huge reach. so no, i wont go and buy tix just yet, i want to see how many hawks make it through pre-season healthy before saying much more.
By GuyFromUruguay
August 26, 2007 3:34 PM | Link to this
LOL Astro, that was a great post.
For those of you that were clamoring about Yi and all that:
Former Hawks C Esteban Batista is tearing up FIBA ball, he went for 34 points, 15 rebounds and four steals.
The guy tears up international competition, it’s a shame his game is not adapted for NBA play.
It’s also a warning that international stats do not translate to the NBA as easily.
I’m still annoyed that the Hawks nixed his signing with top Italian team Bologna because he had 6 days left on his Hawks contract, but he’s certain to get good offers after his performance in this tourney.
I hope my team (Uruguay) qualifies for the Olympics.
BTW I still like Zaza, I think you forget he’s being thrown to the wolves alone, no help at all.
By jhan
August 26, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this
G Money, all everyone has been talking about is getting a legitimate center on this team. Isn’t that an easy translation as to who we feel about ZaZa? Sekou also wrote a blog about players who underperformed last year. Guess who failed miserably? - ZaZa.
He definitely has to step up his game this year. If he performs, then Horford & Sheldon can play center against 2nd/3rd stringers where they will have a much better chance of success.
By G Money
August 26, 2007 9:00 AM | Link to this
Doc,
Can’t believe you…get season tickets because of a feeling ZaZa has? Come on. A couple people went after Josh Smith because of his article. ZaZa of all people, needs to be the guy who will “provide a spark for this team that he didn’t bring last year.” We all complain about no toughness in the lane and he states that he’s been doing the same things that he’s been doing in previous years. Granted he states he wanted to work on his defense, but unless he does a 180 in that category, he’s only going to remain a pretty good back up. It seems like he’s most proud of the points he’s putting up (21,39, 37) vs blocking or altering shots, holding the scoring down of opponents or making great outlet passes. He mentions Speedy and Marvin, Josh and JJ as guys working hard and stepping up. I just hope that this is ZaZa’s breakout year. I don’t really care how much he’s getting paid, he’s the one guy who if he could defend would be one of the most valuable players on this team. It’s time ZaZa, who makes nearly twice as much as Josh Smith, become the presence in the middle that the Hawks need if not expect. What is it about this guy that everyone gives him a free ride while holding all the other guys to high standards of accountability? Riddle me that, Batman.
By doc
August 26, 2007 8:21 AM | Link to this
solid interview with the big guy zaza sekou. guess you need to keep us posted on how his first good feeling turns out with his international team to see if his intuition is firing aces. if so we all need to get season tix, right?
By doc
August 24, 2007 11:17 PM | Link to this
jhan, kareem was the athleticism of wilt and the understated guile of russell. he was a teammate first, played within the concept of the team and made things happen either by him or through him. he was the player that we all waited for coming out of high school like we awaited tiger in a similar way. he was the first of this type of hype, a different genre for basketball or almost any sport at that time.
it was newsworthy that the freshman team often filled the gym at ucla and folks left when the varsity game started. he is also the guy who lived up to the hype without becoming overwhelmed by it almost a trappist monk going about his daily tasks never too high or too low. the games he played against hayes and the 7 plus footer guy who ended up in jacksonville were the games of the century.
he was so smooth in the crunch that he never missed and had a solid defensive presence when it was needed. what a threesome, magic worthy and kareem.
By jhan
August 24, 2007 6:17 PM | Link to this
The skyhook - has to be the most unstoppable shot ever created. I can only recall seeing that shot blocked ONE time. I believe the dude’s name was Bill Willoughby? Another young kid with very little or no college experience if I recall correctly.
I have to admit I don’t have memories of watching Kareem play until he was with the Lakers - I just turned 40 last week.
Doc, Flash - any elaborations?
By doc
August 24, 2007 2:44 PM | Link to this
beautiful image to see lew/kareem make the sky hook. flash thanks for the “flashback”.
By The Flash
August 24, 2007 1:48 PM | Link to this
What I like about Lister is that he had a finese game and used the backboard. If I remember right, had a nice little hook shot off the bounce going for himself. Anybody ever watch Princeton play the Princeton. Lots of hook shots.
Advantages: takes away lots of the physical defense from bigs, makes em move, entertaining to watch, easy on the body, conserves energy, and opens the middle by making the big defend the bounce and then jump away from the basket to contest.
Drew-Princeton-Lister?
Who knows, it’s hot as heck in DC and I’m just talkin ball with the boyz.
By ray
August 23, 2007 5:52 PM | Link to this
Astro Joe,
Beautifully done. I really had to laugh at that one. Nearly spit my drink out at the computer screen, but it was worth it. I can appreciate your cynism and sarcasm. God knows you and everyone else has a right to it! Let’s just hope that Lister really does make a difference. Or we’ll be back to crying instead of laughing.
Now where’s Ando The Prophet to tell us that we are intellectually poor, and he would be glad to stoop to our level so that we might have a glimpse at understanding the greater things of the basketball universe, and all others as well. Heh.
By Astro Joe
August 23, 2007 10:21 AM | Link to this
Ray, you’re right, admitting you have a problem is the first move toward fixing it. And the Hawks hiring an assistant and announcing that his job is to work with the big men is a good sign (Ballard was ineffective and I’m still not clear what Ty Hill was truly doing with the team). Here’s the job ad that ran on monster.com for the Hawks coaching position:
“The Atlanta Hawks are looking to hire a qualified candidate to work with our promising big men with tremendous wingspans. We cannot offer a competitive salary nor more than a 1 year deal. Your employment may be terminated immediately based on an impending judge’s ruling. Current owners are cheap and incompetent SOBs who can’t follow a legal contract they helped write. Must be thick-skinned as our players have been known to curse-out their coaches. Candidate will be housed in the Philips Arena locker room as relocation funds are unavailable and the $8,000 annual salary is insufficient for private housing. You will join a coaching staff that has lost at historic levels and has approximately 10 months left on their contracts. Lateral moves to other franchises are not allowed, however, feel free to interview for other positions. Must be willing to room with other coaches during business trips. Please click here to submit your resume. The Atlanta Hawks are an equal opportunity employer. We have several mentally challenged employees throughout all levels of the franchise and look forward to discussing how your background can support the Highlight Factory as we Rise Up in our new uniforms”.
I understand that resumes were received from Priest Lauderdale, Ra’Sean Dickey, Pete Babcock, Karl Rove, Bill Campbell and Alton Lister. I applaud Woody and BK on making the right hire.
By ray
August 23, 2007 2:19 AM | Link to this
Flash,
I feel you on the offense thing. I’d also like to see Larry Drew coach. It may be the best thing that can be done with the coaching situation. Looking outside for a replacement for Woody (which I think is an inevitability) is not necessarily the option most likely to be successful. I know I make it seem like Woody’s already gone, but I am not so confident that things are going to change significantly where his performance is concerned.
Astro Joe, you gotta be kidding me. Was it not you who kept hollering about the Hawks bringing in someone to work with the bigs on our team? I realize Lister may not be top flight talent (when he was in the league, or in his coaching career), but it may indeed be a step in the right direction. Either way, could the results be any worse than they’ve already been? Yeah, it would’ve been more comforting to have gone with a name like Mahorn or Laimbeer. But I figure Lister learned more by coaching than he did by playing. Anyhow, at least he has the experience of playing 16 NBA seasons. Like I said, at least somebody saw fit to make a change in the coaching of the low post guys.
By ray
August 23, 2007 2:12 AM | Link to this
There’s no doubting Kobe is one of the greatest in the game right now. And probably the most dangerous. He might demand that his teammates be better, but I don’t see where he is actually making them better.
As far as Kobe/Shaq and Shaq/Wade, I have a simple opinion. When Kobe was really coming into his own, Shaq was the most unstoppable force in the league. Not Kobe. The offense, whether for good or ill, still had to run through Shaq, particularly if other options weren’t panning out so well. The simple fact is, Shaq existed well with Wade because Wade was willing to take the torch WHEN SHAQ WAS READY TO PASS IT. Kobe wasn’t ready at the right time. He wanted to snatch it, or so it seemed to me. Perhaps it only seemed that way. Maybe it was the fact that Shaq kept winning MVP after MVP.
Another example of good timing is Tim Duncan and David Robinson. David knew when it was time to defer to Tim. Tim never tried to wrest the team away from David when he got there. It worked out great. And Tim has carried on the legacy since. Shaq got to Miami and had the ultimate success very quickly.
Meanwhile….Kobe is still missing that dominant big. Bynum will be good. But will Kobe be around for that. Will he contribute to that, or stunt the young fella’s growth.
I’m not hatin’ on Kobe. Love to watch him get it going. But he’s also the same reason I don’t enjoy watching the Laker team.
By The Flash
August 22, 2007 9:03 PM | Link to this
Astro Luke is one of those guys who makes everyone better. He can score the ball too. Farmar, imo, is going to be hands down terrific. Bynum is a for real big.
Look, I’ve seen Kobe miss tons of shots in a row. He don’t stop shooting. Kwame misses once, or Bynum misses once, and everybody is all over them, particularly Kobe.
You give these guys the ball and stop judging every move they make and they will play much better. Kobe will NEVER let that happen. Neither would Gilbert. Gilbert still won’t.
Love watching the guy, but would trade Gilbert in a heartbeat. To LA, as a matter of fact, for Bynum and Farmar and I’d throw in one of DC’s bigs and take back some weight from LA in return. Then, the two of them can have fun trying to prove themselves the more perfect.
By Grateful Sonics Fan
August 22, 2007 4:31 PM | Link to this
WAN, are you kidding me? I’ve never been carded walking into a Casino. The only things to do in Vegas on a Saturday night are not casino and B-ball. There are alot of things they could have been doing. They may not be old enough to drink legally, but I’m sure had they wanted to someone would have helped them out. They could have been at a movie, or playing poker in a hotel room. There are “family” attractions all over Vegas too. Many shows they could have been seeing.
Saturday night in the gym in Vegas wouldn’t be the 10th choice for most people.
By Astro Joe
August 22, 2007 3:59 PM | Link to this
I think some are forgetting Kobe’s surrounding cast the past few season. Kwame, Smush, Luke Walton and a hodgepodge of rookies and no names. Here’s guessing that if Kobe took fewer shots that the Lakers would have struggled to win 40 games the past few seasons. I still recall the Kobe that could get a triple-double at will. I think he can still do that, but would likely never see another playoff game. And please, don’t tell me that Kobe had anything with trading Caron Butler for Kwame or drafting Bynum when a Richard Jefferson-like guy like Granger was there for the taking (and much more ready to contribute than Bynum).
By jhan
August 22, 2007 3:02 PM | Link to this
As important as the team concept is in basketball, the deciding factor will always be the individual talent level. The triangle truly is the ultimate offense in my opinion, but it took MJ to make it a championship offense.
I know Flash loves the Princeton offense - how many titles has that college won recently? You can have the best offense ever designed but if you don’t have the individual talent on your squad it doesn’t matter.
What is necessary is that the individual stud buy into your offensive scheme. That seems to be where MJ & Kobe differ.
By Z
August 22, 2007 2:38 PM | Link to this
if anyone is interested, I found this page that has up to date Hawks news feeds
http://www.mysportsscoop.com/hawks/
By doc
August 22, 2007 2:35 PM | Link to this
manny t i love duncan as will atest those that remember when asked i said firmly if i could choose one ballplayer to start my team it would be duncan. he is the russell of our era who may transcend the game as he wins and stays with one team throughout his career. that is real faith and staying power. kobe has done well in having his share of championships and i imagine will have a few more if he can only do something about the real problem he has in making too much money to be able to go very far from his roots. duncan didnt take that path and it has made his life more meaningful if it is the TRUE PURPOSE of adding more championships to his list as he hasnt decimated the salary structure of his team. brady may be his anaolgy in football.
flash honored to have caught your eye, i really enjoy your game.
though we may not like it, it is always captivating to see the individual play within the team concept. it is what we thrive on as ratings show over and over. shaq in his decline vs. duncan in his prime. guess what gets watched?
By MannyT
August 22, 2007 1:31 PM | Link to this
If Drew is the glue to make this whole thing work—why wouldn’t he get a shot ala Phil in Chicago if Woody doesn’t return? Woody’s contract will be up and there is no law that he has to get another with the Hawks.
I know it’s not a simple thing to replace one with the other, but clearly, there is a willingness to change by bringing in Alton Lister. It shows someone was willing to come here for a year for that shot at the NBA. I wonder if the same opportunity would have worked for someone like Rick Mahorn or Bill Laimbeer during the WNBA offseason.
Astro, give Lister a chance. It’s not like San Diego in football. We aren’t tinkering with a team that was at the top of the league. There is no rule that you coach others to the playing skills you have/had. Most great players never made great coaches. I’d take most pro coaches in team sports over their playing careers in a second.
By The Flash
August 22, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this
Astro The Brown move is easy. First, it means that Woody better show some stuff early or he be gone. Drew steps right in. Second, I think that it might also mean that you will see some different offensive concepts being employed. Drew might finally have the portfollio to design the half court offense as he wants. I certainly hope so.
The real difficulty I still see is that the game is not easily dissected into offense and defense. To me, it is of one piece. If Woody is still wedded to some version of “bobby-ball” on defense, that is, reach-down-their-throats-and-rip-their-lungs-out style of defense, then I think that that impacts on the rhythms that Drew’s offense concepts are designed to foster.
I think Brown moving upstairs means that Woody is soon to follow. I think that BK stood in the way of making that move when the season ended; the Spirit owed him (don’t get me started) but really even they knew it was past time; and that that is the reason that they did not let Drew go.
Drew will be the head coach soon, and the team will pay a price for BK’s standing by his man well past his time. On the other hand, if Drew has even greater influence over the team’s approach than just the half-court offense, he just might save Woody his job. Then waht’ll they do next year? Later, Astro.
By MannyT
August 22, 2007 11:21 AM | Link to this
Doc,
While we may all aspire to great things, it is the limited success that makes them noteworthy be they good or bad. If everyone could win a basket full of championship rings, few would care. We tend to notice the unusual be it great or tragic, scholarly or horrible.
I think the interesting thing here is why some with great talent do not acsend to be great. There are plenty of individual sports that allow people recognition (tennis, golf, track & field, etc.) However, most of the greatness that makes the top rung of recognition highlights team sports and group efforts where the top person brings others along to share in that success.
All that said, Phil gets his credit for a team role and Kobe doesn’t until he shows that ability to support others. Down the road, I think this will get Tim Duncan more credit after his career than during it. He’s not flashy, but he brings those greater as a part of the team things to the forefront.
By The Flash
August 22, 2007 11:09 AM | Link to this
Doc I put your last offering up as the post of the year. Downright poetic almost, and deep. Convincing also, only I have to add some observations about Wilt and claim continued skepticism about Kobe’s ability to resurrect himself into a tenable teammate.
Wilt, in my view, was somewhat above the game. He was a man for all seasons. Brilliant man. He loved basketball and obviously was built for it and had an incredible aptitude for it but loved other things more (yeah, like 20,000 of em if what he said is true.)
Actually, women were only part of that broader universe, and, while it seems insane to say when we are talking in the thousands (nobody really believes it was 20,000, do they?), only a small part at that. He was interested in the world at large, and brought to the game only so much.
Of course, had it not been for an even more formidable genuis, who played for a coach that held concepts about the game that captivated everyone who was not brain dead, Wilt, giving the game probably half the attention of many of the greats, would have dominated the league like, well like Russell did.
So, I think that Wilt occupied a space that is belied by his dearth of championships. He bestrode the world of basketball like a collossus; his achillies tendon, if indeed he had one, is that “winning it all” just did not matter that much to him. He loved the game like he did his women, which by numbers alone has to mean he loved it pretty good, but not enough to settle down. I should only have such a shortcoming.
By Astro Joe
August 22, 2007 10:55 AM | Link to this
Alton Lister? NBA Finals, here we come. Lister’s resume as a teacher looks good on paper, but I’m guessing his specialty is defense. Is Lister going to teach Horford how to use his quickness and strength to get itno the lane? Is he going to teach Zaza how to go up strong? Is he going to teach Shelden when to use his underrated 1 foot shot? Lister was an offensive liability throughout his NBA career. Does his hiring mean that Woody is content if our big men all play like Lister, Ty Hill and Charles Oakley?
Still trying to figure out what the Herb Brown move means. Sekou, is Ty Hill going to retain his role in the upcoming season? And what is that role?
By doc
August 22, 2007 8:47 AM | Link to this
kobe as a player reminds me of the greatest individual player of all time wilt chamberlain. he was a phenominal INDIVIDUAL athelete and one of the rare specimens that have ever walked the earth. he had strength, quickness and power that havent been seen again including shaq, another wonderful freak of nature.
another thing, drop the stuff of whose fault it was in the breakup between shaq and kobe. it was their fate as they never were able to get along and had that brief moment in the sun where they were able to deliver at their best. shaq had just begun to crest his cusp and kobe was ascending, that in itself spelled doom as sooner pr later shaq was going to have to give up his crown which he wasnt able to do until he got with dwayne. he said to wade “you are the man, itis your team” as soon as he got there but couldnt come to say those words when he was with kobe for whatever reason.
to continue to spat about who did what to the other is to keep the melodrama alive like was it federer or brit? those that do sound like the women waiting to buy their groceries in line looking at star mag.
kobe will not win again until he realizes he is at his cusp and allows others to come forward. mj essentially came to that conclusion while in baseballl exile is my guess and came back a more humble but an even more powerful player in the team concept to do what so many said he couldnt.
kobe will win it again like wilt did as more of a support to others for his second pass at a ring in a totaly diffferent fashion than the one he won in philly. like others who have won in a different role, as a second coming, like shaq has done with another team, kobe will do it in a way that will be more to the liking of the flash and the game he likes to see played. one doesnt score, what?, 87 points in a game because he is a ball hog. it is because for one moment he has transcended everyone before him except wilt. that all have to truly admire or go to the doc to check their vision.
By biggame james
August 22, 2007 8:06 AM | Link to this
Love him or hate ‘em. Stop hatin… Kobe is by far the best in the league on both ends of the floor. When the Lakers don’t win you down him. When they are winning you praise ‘em. Get off his nu#$… Lebron does far more pounding of the ball than Kobe, but you guys say nothing. He can only score off transition buckets really. his jumper is garbag… He’s just a phenomenal athlete. Kobe on the other hand…Poetry in motion… He’ll go down in history as one of the greatest to ever play the game…. Stop hating and start jocking………
By wan
August 22, 2007 5:52 AM | Link to this
Hi Grateful Sonics Fan, or maybe your two kids were in that gym simply because they´re not old enough to get into the casinos…
By Grateful Sonics Fan
August 22, 2007 1:17 AM | Link to this
Wow. Good read and an interesting story.
You guys are talking about the fact that it takes 2 (or more) dedicated stars to stay at that top level for any length of time. It seems to me you’re missing the other story here. There are 2 other dedicated players who are featured in this story and happen to play for the same team.
I have heard alot about the hard work that Durant and Green have always put in. They’re both players that have a great deal of versatility and will probably both play 3 or more positions in thier career. Both have shown offensive and defensive abilities that are far above average. They were in the gym as well, as they have that fire. It’s future championships that this Sonics fan sees right now.
By doc
August 21, 2007 11:08 PM | Link to this
flash, nice soliloquy on the zen master. it is funny that mastering self into the oneness of your surroundings is thought to be so “strange” when that may be the ultimate path we all eventually take, ready or not. quite beautiful to reach there early or to at least get glimpses of it. ultimately, any true spiritual path takes you in this direction no matter your religion.
i agree that the phil man may have let his own ego/hubris deflect him onto a path of mediocrity on this latest venture beyond retirement. he is looking the mere mortal this time around.
By Dennis
August 21, 2007 6:14 PM | Link to this
Just need the comment from Michael Jordan to drive home Sekou’s point: “Heart is what separates the good from the great.” The guys in the league are good, Kobe wants to be great, even though I don’t like him. Can’t argue with that.
By ILL-logical
August 21, 2007 4:55 PM | Link to this
Today must be the hottest day of the year because everyone on this board is smoking.Great topic and great comments. My view is that in addition to talent, dedication and luck-yes it’s right up there with the rest- a “great” player needs a supportive environment as well. Coaching;management; fans and family all play a role in the mix as well.
I can’t say in what proportion or order but I believe that these factors have to be weighed as we look to the upcoming season and the Hawks prospects both individually and collectively.
IF all or a least a few of the Hawks get the right support, encouragement and, of course discipline, we may see greatness at Phillips on the part of the home team.
By MannyT
August 21, 2007 3:27 PM | Link to this
Flash,
I wasn’t picking on Phil as much as giving him props for doing the job in a very unconventional way. Often coaches seem to cluster toward sameness. Phil does not. When you pull the core of your basketball coaching from a religious lifestyle that kept you away from movies, television, etc—that is different. We typically don’t think of Native Americans as “ballers” so Phil’s approach is more out of the mainstream than common.
I believe that folks that are great often have more in common with folks that are on the opposite fringes of society than the good to great link that Sekou made in the title. Ever see the movie Charly (or book Flowers for Algernon)?
If I twist back to Dreamer take from early 8/21…while the North Pole and the South Pole may be as far apart as you can get on earth, they have more in common with each other than either does with the equator.
By The Flash
August 21, 2007 2:16 PM | Link to this
Dreamer Thanks for the clarification. Many has been the time that I’ve tried to be funny, especially in writing, and it was misconstrued. We are entirely okay. To me, either you were pyschotic or neurotic. That was the list as far as being “nuts” was concerned; live and learn.
Have to disagree with you bottom line on Kobe, though I agree 100% on the perfectionist, greatness aspects of your take.
Kobe’s narcissism and phenominal talent feed off one another; probably would not have the second to the degree that he does without the first.
Where we part company is on the “greatness” issue. I’d have to say that MJ probably had more than the normal part of narcissism in him, enough so that it probably would be characterized as a treatable disorder by a shrink.
However, MJ was reachable by Phil, and others on the team, most prominently Bill Cartwright and somehow found his way to be part of the circle, not inside one keeping other lesser beings out.
Kobe, as he matured, lost any ability to see the circle, much less join it.
Phil, imo, suffered from Hubris in coming back. I think it obvious that he made a deal with Kobe: Kobe would play the Triangle but could diverge from it when he thought it was not working because the other players would not get it done.
I believe that Phil thought that the qualities of the Triangle when well played would convince Kobe to buy into it, even in crunch time. He was wrong.
Most of the easy points for Kobe and MJ in the Triangle came when they occupied the high post, which is the pivot point for the offense. When teams take that away from the Lakers when Kobe is in the post, he is way to quick to give up on thers occupying that spot.
That spot in the Triangle is a basketball player’s dream, you can beat anybody from that spot if you are talented in the way several other Lakers are, unless the defense commits to stopping you, in which case there are exterior shots galore.
Defenses invest resources to keep Kobe from getting anything easy, however. They would rather let the pivot guy in the Triangle, say the Lefty whose name escapes me, or Walton, to take his guy one on one, for an easy 15 footer or a two step attack to the basket, then give Kobe a good look.
If the pivot guy were to miss one or two, Kobe is done with waiting. He gets it on the exterior, and the ball stops. He is taking a shot no matter what. The heck with the passing game, the heck with creating what is easy through the Triangle, Kobe is taking over.
Puts on a show but he kills any chance that the Lakers have to make a decent run. Kills it.
I do not think another superstar would make one wit of difference. If Kobe refuses to join the circle, or the Triangle, as it were, you could put KG or whomever with them. The team will not win.
On the other hand, if he plays within the Triangle, and joins the team in a system tailor made for his skill set, anything would be possible.
I also believe that is exactly the way Phil and Buss see it. That no one around the league was making any real noise about acquiring Kobe says to me that others in the supposed know see it in similar terms too.
By Greg
August 21, 2007 1:36 PM | Link to this
Remember this Kobe has 3 championships. He won back to back to back titles. There is only 3 teams to ever do this in the history of the NBA (the Bulls MJ & Scottie) (the Lakers Kobe & Shag)& (the Celtics Russell & Cousy). Before you say “yeah, but Kobe had Shaq”. How many titles did MJ have prior to Scottie coming into his own. Also how many titles did Shaq have prior to Kobe coming into his own.
Also before you say Shaq won in Miami, without Kobe. Yeah but Shaq had 4 or more past or present all stars on that Miami team (GP, ZO, DWade,& AWalker,). The are no present or past all stars on the Lakers team period.
MJ never won a champioship without Scottie. Magic never won a championship without Kareem.
The last I check the ultimate accomplishment in the NBA as a team Player is to win the title. Kobe and Shaq did it three times in a row. If that’s not being a team player. What is?
Give the man his props. He the best player in the game today. Period!!!!
By Dreamer 3K
August 21, 2007 1:10 PM | Link to this
Brother Flash, I apologize. I was just playing with words for what I believed to be rhetorical effect. No ill will intended at all. I’m new here. I enjoy reading you guys and thought I’d play along too.
As for Kobe, I’m an unabashed Kobe fan, which places me in the minority among my friends and probably this blog. I believe his greatness is a byproduct of his narcissism and his narcissism is a byproduct of his greatness. They feed each other.
Some call him selfish. I don’t. He wants badly to win, perhaps too badly. He may shoot alot…perhaps a hell of alot, but not in my mind for the sake of individual goals. That would be selfish. He shoots because he believes that is what gives his team the best chance to win.
He probably is a difficult teammate. So was MJ. He probably has little use for others he deems to be lazy, i.e.anyone who doesn’t who eat, drink, sleep basketball as voraciously as himself, Shaq included.
Call him narcissistic, I’d agree. Call him difficult, I’d agree. Call him great, we all must agree.
Again, sorry Flash—-just having fun. Call me warped, I’d agree.
By The Flash
August 21, 2007 11:07 AM | Link to this
Dreamer Have to say you lost me at hello. But, assuming that some here can follow your string of hypotheticals, and you are correct, that narcissism can be a serious emotional problem, a disease in pychiatric terms, but not a neurosis, something else, something perhaps more problematic, yes?, how exactly does missusing the term neurosis justify your calling me a moron?
Kobe is a narcissist—nobody in the Western world would dispute that.
Hell, he insisted that the stage was not big enough for him and Shaq, and made the Lakers into an also ran, and then blames Mitch and Buss because he ain’t winning. That is a narcissist enough for me, but it actually is much worse.
Kobe refuses to play the best offensive system ever put on the court—one tailor made for a star of his talents to empower a team to unstoppable greatness—because then it would not be all about him and his perfectness. Makes me want to barf.
Phil is not quirky or nuts. He is a great basketball mind, leader of men, who hired an offensive genuis to work as his assistant and has kept him by his side since he began coaching, He also is an extremely spiritual man (completely without religion) who helps players who are willing move towards a place of union and nonstruggle, both of which make playing the great game a joyous and effective endeavor.
They call him the “Zen” master because Zen has been a pursuit of his. But, his spiritual roots go back to his parents who were pentacostal (spelling) ministers and to his near reverance for the Lakota nation, and the spiritual threads underlying it. In short, he has taken the best that he could from many paths and has woven them into something such that the world might stand up and say, when it is all over, “this was a man.” Marc Anthony of Brutus.
By Casey
August 21, 2007 10:18 AM | Link to this
Kobe=Great Individual player Great Team player…Not yet…… He should spend his time opening his eyes on the team concept not the individual prowess.
By MannyT
August 21, 2007 10:00 AM | Link to this
Sekou,
Is the line thinner between phenomenally great and down right crazy? Consider coaches and great thinkers. Isn’t Phil Jackson a bit out there? Bill Belichek & Bill Walsh are/were a bit outside the norm in football. When you think of a great professor or scientist doesn’t he usually fit the can create a nuclear bomb, but can’t remember where he lives mold? Do you recall that movie, A Beautiful Mind. Prof. Nash is the poster boy for insanely gifted.
All that to say maybe Kobe is the best of a generation post MJ. This could explain why he is a bit of an odd job!
I’m sure your blog-psychologists can weigh in on this one.
By Dreamer 3K
August 21, 2007 1:21 AM | Link to this
I think FLASH the palaverizer is a more apt description (to borrow a word from the Commish).
Bruh, with all due respect, you’re wrong. Well actually half wrong. I agree with everything you say about Narcissism. It is an awful, and unfortunately prevalent vice. It can lead to all the outcomes you recount in your not so subtle jab at Kobe. You did a “great,” job of defining the term.
Howerer, you didn’t even do a “good,” job of defining “neurosis.” In fact, you failed miserably. But I know what the problem is: you seem to treat the terms “serious emotional problem,” and “neurosis,” as synonyms. They are not.
Neurosis is merely a subset within the broader category of serious emotional problems. Similarly, Narcissism is another subset within the broader category of serious emotional problems.
So, to recap, tomorrow if I go to my psychologist or psychiatrist and say Doctor, my wife left me. She left me because I’m perfect. Everytime she looks at me in my perfection, she’s reminded of her own shortcomings and she could no longer take it. That’s also why I have no friends. I may be diagnosed as Narcissistic.
Conversely if I said, Doctor, my wife left me. It’s because I’m a failure at everything I do. I can never make up my mind. I cry at night because I have never accomplished anything worthwile. I have no friends because they see how worthless I am. I may then be diagnosed as neurotic.
So in short (if that’s possible at this point), like the North Pole and the South Pole, while they may occupy space on the same globe, they are worlds apart. (Unless of course I’m bipolar which is a topic for another day, another time, and hopefully another blog.)
By alan Elliott
August 21, 2007 12:34 AM | Link to this
and when Kobe says he wants to win…
ask him why he wanted to get rid of shaq….
Phil Jackson, page 258 of his last book:
“I have been successfully sacrificing my game for years for Shaq. That’s what Phil [Jackson] wanted me to do, so I did it. If leaving the Lakers at the end of the season is what I decide, a major reason for that will be Shaq’s childlike selfishness and jealousy.”
By Sekou K. Smith
August 20, 2007 8:55 PM | Link to this
Flash the Philosiphizer, I luv this place!
By The Flash
August 20, 2007 6:30 PM | Link to this
Dreamerman Here is a tid bit about narcissism I lifted from the internet. Read em and weep:
*Narcissism describes the character trait of self love.
The word is derived from a Greek myth. Narcissus was a handsome Greek youth who rejected the desperate advances of the nymph Echo. As punishment, he was doomed to fall in love with his own reflection in a pool of water. Unable to consummate his love, Narcissus pined away and changed into the flower that bears his name, the narcissus.
Freud believed that some narcissism is an essential part of all of us from birth and was the first to use the term in the reference to psychology.[1]
Andrew Morrison claims that, in adults, a reasonable amount of healthy narcissism allows the individual’s perception of his needs to be balanced in relation to others[2].
In psychology and psychiatry, excessive narcissism is recognized as a severe personality dysfunction or personality disorder, most characteristically Narcissistic Personality Disorder, also referred to as NPD.
The terms “narcissism”, “narcissistic” and “narcissist” are often used as pejoratives, denoting vanity, conceit, egotism or simple selfishness. Applied to a social group, it is sometimes used to denote elitism or an indifference to the plight of others. Arguably, however, these terms are used to draw parallels between allegations of self-centeredness and Narcissistic personality disorder, rather than than toward healthy self-love.*
By The Flash
August 20, 2007 6:25 PM | Link to this
Dreamer Narcissism happens to be a neurosis. Ask your shrink. If you don’t have one, you can ask mine. I’m sure she’d be happy to share.
In fact, narcissism is the neurosis de jure these days. Anybody who is anybody has got to have it. I mean it is a way cool thing to have.
Except when it causes you to think that someone is saying yes hen she actually isn’t, or when you tell a hall of fame coach to sit on this, when he asks you to play an offense that was good enough for MJ, but not for the great Kobe.
Really, Dreamer, you took psyche 101 way too long ago. Narcissism has been a vice since ancient times, and it has been an officially recognized and quiet serious emotional problem, as in neurosis, for a very, very long time. Otherwise, your take was spot on. Please!
By Dreamer 3K
August 20, 2007 6:09 PM | Link to this
“His narcissism is too great a neurosis.?!?! WTF! With Narcissism being extreme belief in one’s perceived greatness; and neurosis being extreme anxiety and fixation over one’s perceived imperfections; it seems the juxtaposition of the two terms is at best oxymoronic, and at worst, just plain moronic.
It’s okay to hate Kobe. Some of my best friends do. I think you make some excellent points, but, “his narcissism is too great a neurosis,” I think you went out on a limb for that one. Way out.
By rob
August 20, 2007 5:48 PM | Link to this
If I’m in a remote area and need to place a call, I’ll trust verizon over the monopoly any day! Shoot, I’ll take verizon over AT&T in the city too although I know the “Big Dog” will eventually step it up.
I just wanted to get some insight on Joe Johnson’s offseason. Is he progressing, why is he not involved with Team USA etc. Any info would be appreciated as I am still debating the renewal of my season tickets…
By BosnianBaller
August 20, 2007 5:31 PM | Link to this
Teams in the nba get better thats why our schedule sucks. we still have the same team from last year.
Thats why sekou’s off season stories are important because the players must get better for us to have any chance
By The Flash
August 20, 2007 5:30 PM | Link to this
GMoney Very poetic but I’m not sure you got your facts right. I do not believe that Russell and Kareem, or even Magic and MJ, worked incessantly on their games to improve, once they reached the heights.
Oh, I’m sure that Magic and MJ worked on their shooting, but no more than a thousand gym rats. Nothing like Byrd did, and certainly nothing like old Dollar Bill did (he was truly insane, but that was mostly in his teens).
In the off season, I doubt that Russell even touched a ball or thought about getting in shape. The most athletic thing he did was ask, “Do you think that this is a five or a four iron?”
Kareem was listening to Jazz, reading books, and doing Yoga. How could you improve on the most perfect shot g-d ever created? Nope, sorry, no working on his game for him either.
Kobe was probably in the gym working on his game because (1) nobody on the team wanted to hang with him; (2) the last time he went out on the town was almost his last, if you know what I mean; and (3) he is a narcissist and he is playing for the man whom he should have played for for four years when he was 18 and wants to recapture something of opportunities lost because of his desire to be the “greatest” ever.
Kobe is unique in that he is completely equipped to play the team game from the star position as well as almost anyone including Bird and Magic (not even those incredible team leaders could even approach what Russell meant in the team concept), but he simply choses not to.
Actually, I do not think that Kobe actually has a choice most of the time; his narcissism is too great a neurosis. Shame really, but thems is the facts.
By Dreamer 3K
August 20, 2007 5:24 PM | Link to this
At one point when I was self employed and busting my tail everyday, I asked myself, at what point will I feel like I’ve “made,” it. The answer was, “never!” You’ve got to keep pushing.
At the same time MJ was winning another MVP trophy and was asked about being the greatest basketball player alive. His answer was that great players don’t sit around thinking about being great, they are in the gym trying to get better. In other words, you’ve got to keep pushing.
It’s that feeling of never having “made,” it, and the daily desire and the daily determination to get better that increases one’s odds of being “great.”
It’s not a guarantee for greatness, but certainly not having the desire and determination is a guarantee for not attaining greatness.
By Astro Joe
August 20, 2007 5:18 PM | Link to this
G Money, Magic had a title (at least 1) before he helped Westhead out the door. What has Smith won? 66 games in 3 years? Did Smith win a college title to further demonstrate his knowledge and pedigree of guiding a team to ultimate success? Not sure how cursing out a coach (regardless of his incompetence) is showing respect for the game. I, too, hope that Smith and every other Hawk can learn the difference between great and good. Heck, I’ll settle for some of them knowing when not to shoot a 3 ball with 20 seconds left on the shot-clock and when to pass it around for a better shot from a teammate.
By G Money
August 20, 2007 4:57 PM | Link to this
Kobe seems to follow a long line of basketball greats - Bill Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and MJ. I was always fascinated by an article that talked about how Bird knew every bad bounce in the Boston Garden parquet. Stories abound about how they worked, and worked, and worked on their games even after achieving sainthood. One can only hope that Smoove becomes one of these disciples. It isn’t always about just being obedient (see Magic vs. Westhead). It is about having respect for the game, respect for the team, a dedication to greatness, and a passion for winning that makes losing unthinkable.
Regardless of how you slice it, the question must be asked of our players, coaches and mgmt. Will some emerge to be great? Are they even working on it? Sekou, keep us posted.
By The Flash
August 20, 2007 4:06 PM | Link to this
Recognizing that the game is played five on five, and playing accordingly.
Valuing the rhythms of the game above all.
Stepping up to the plate with your overwhelming talents without doing violence to 1 or 2, but rather helping to shape them.
Playing for a coach with exciting offensive concepts that make doing “three” not just a joy but a compulsion.
Kobe will never reach that mark; he almost did when the big guy, who so absolutely gets 1-3, did everything he could to get Kobe to buy in.
Maybe Kobe will be inspired by Coach K and show some of that on the International stage. However, as far as the league is concerned, I think it safe to say that that ship has sailed.
By Willie Coyote
August 20, 2007 3:40 PM | Link to this
Thank you Astro. If Donaghy wasn’t an official in that sham of a Finals then it’s laughable to say that he was the only crooked ref.
That early schedule is a good thing for a team if they have the competitive nature to go out there and set the tone for the season. The problem is that I’m not sure this team is mentally tough enough to not get intimidated by this schedule. Also, are they mature enough to handle the outcome of this early test? Whether they are surprisingly successful or if they fall flat on their face, can they handle it?
By Astro Joe
August 20, 2007 3:10 PM | Link to this
Sekou, more bars in more places. Stick with the Big Dog!
Best we can hope for in the first 4-6 weeks is competitive basketball. The schedule is quite imposing. Clyde will sell a ton of t-shirts before the holidays roll around. I expect to see Larry Drew running the show as the interim head coach by mid-January.
Killer instinct, passion and discipline is what separates the good from the great.
And if Donaghy was working any of those Miami Heat games the year that Wade went to the free throw line 500 times during the Finals, then I wouldn’t be so quick to place Shaq above Kobe when it comes to titles.