Hawks

By Jason

February 6, 2007 03:04 PM | Link to this

Sekou,

I’d like to make an article or blog request along these lines. Can we see a piece about what the current constraints on a trade are? I think the biggest mystery is exactly how much flexibility BK has with the current ownership dysfunction. I assume with your trade talk they can get something done. My questions: do both warring sides have to approve any move? can the current ownership group pull the trigger without approval as long as it doesn’t result in the taking on of more money, years of contract? It would be great to see you spell out in detail all the potential pitfalls in the current situation.

By mavid

February 6, 2007 03:18 PM | Link to this

a trade for ridnour AND collison would be even nicer

the only problem is this:

seattle has pretty much the same problem as us (minus the pg problem)

they have great wing players in allen and lewis, but lack what is needed at the 4 and 5 (although collison is beginning to step-up and robert swift was supposedly looking decent at the 5 before he got hurt)

its just hard to see what they would want from us. they already have lights-out shooters in allen and lewis, so salim seems to be unnecessary. speedy and lue are both hurt. can’t really give them in a trade. would they really want shelden? maybe zaza, but we would need him if we dont get a post player in the deal.

so, if they would bite on it, this is what i would do:

ridnour and collison

for

marvin, salim, plus change (a 2nd round pick, shelden, etc)

we move smoove to the 3, start collison at the 4

starting lineup of ridnour, joe, smoove, collison, zaza/wright

instantly would be a better rebounding team as collison brings 10 boards a game with him

also, ridnour is consistent with his 3-point shot, which would help joe a lot by taking some pressure off of him

so, there’s my idea… anyone else?

By mavid

February 6, 2007 03:19 PM | Link to this

also, forgot to mention

marvin is from the seattle area, so this really wouldnt be too much of a slap in the face to him

plus, a future lineup of watson, allen, marvin, lewis and a center (swift, etc) could work out nicely for the sonics

By Dan

February 6, 2007 03:24 PM | Link to this

I think it would take more than we have to offer to get Ridnour. I remember when you were blogging about this trade, you mentioned that the Hawks could give Salim and Estoban Bautista. I can’t fathom the Sonics having need for either player. Salim is an overrated shooter and Bautista never plays.

I think the only guys we have that interest teams (assuming Joe Johnson is untouchable) are Childress, Marvin Williams, and Josh Smith. I don’t think we have anyone else that would draw much interest.

It would be dumb to trade Lue. And the only GM stupid enough to sign Speedy is our own. I think this trade deadline will come and go with the Hawks making zero moves. This is a dead topic.

You should go back to being a Walmart Wolverine, Sekou.

By minor_leagues

February 6, 2007 03:26 PM | Link to this

josh childress and sheldon williams is enough to prove that BK is no more intelligent about basketball operations than your local grandma greeting you at wal mart. these guys are supposed to be lottery picks? are you freaking kidding me? there is no hope for this franchise until the ownership and gm get their heads out of each other’s a*******es.

what’s more embarressing about these picks is that every person with half a brain knew childress and williams were not only bad picks but flat out embarressing. david stern i’m sure had to hold back tears of laughter reading out those names.

By Matt from Hotlanta Hawks

February 6, 2007 03:30 PM | Link to this

I think Collison is more complete than Marvin, who still has tremendous upside potential. If it’s not obvious to BK that Lue+Speedy is not a solution past the end of this year, then he needs to take a break and step back from the game.

Sekou, thanks again for hanging with us poor schmoes last night.

By Dan

February 6, 2007 03:32 PM | Link to this

minor_leagues,

I can see being down on Sheldon Williams. He isn’t good.

Josh Childress, however……..I think you need to start watching the games a little closer.

By jhan

February 6, 2007 03:36 PM | Link to this

It all comes back to the ownership issues.

If the Spirit believes that they will eventually lose control of the team, why would they let BK try to better the Hawks? Even if they feel like they have the upper hand, I still think they wait until the official court ruling before they do anything. That will be lucky to happen this offseason.

If Belkin wins(which I personally feel will happen), there’s no way in Hell he let’s BK make any moves for this team.

The fans & players are screwed for this year in every scenario. Stern has to force some kind of decision early this offseason or we’ll be singing the same tune next year.

I do like the idea of trading for Ridnour. He would be an excellent compliment to the youngsters we have now.

By mavid

February 6, 2007 03:41 PM | Link to this

once again, this gets back to the best point ando has made in a while:

if we had roy or foye, we would have so much of a better chance to swing these needed trades, as they are both highly sought after assets

instead, we have shelden. who is an undersized 4 who can’t play as well as millsap who is the same type player drafted in the late 2nd round. shelden is only getting 15-20 minutes on this roster anyways. completely wasted pick on someone who really is a 2nd round talent.

moreover, watching millsap, dude is pretty athletic… he’s had some NASTY blocks this year

seems like a better fit for our team anyways… BK really messed this past offseason up more than any other

By Anakin Joe

February 6, 2007 03:52 PM | Link to this

Mavid, Rashard Lewis has a player option on his current contract (I think) and may opt out. So in other words, Seattle may be willing to take on Marvin as it is quite possible they may not be able to afford what Lewis is requesting in a new deal. Couple that with new ownership who may not be willing to pay big bucks for a guy who hasn’t helped take the team to a consistent playoff level and you may have a willing partner to bring Marvin home to the pacific northwest. I too, would offer Marvin, Salim and Shelden if neccessary for Ridnour and Collison.

Here’s the problem. I read some national stories (don’t know if they’re true) that the Spirit did not fire Woody during that horrific December/early January period because they did not want to pay his remaining salary plus the salary of the new coach. If that is true (and that assumes the ownership group could agree on a new team leader), that would say that they do not want to spend the $2-3M that the average head coach makes. If you think about that, that is quite depressing. There are very, very, very few quality players who make less than $3M. And the ones that do, are not likely to be traded by their current teams, because who on earth trades a high production/low expense player? So if the bogey is a player who makes damn near nothing, then that is the equivalent of telling BK that he is hand-cuffed this season. Its like giving a guy a $1,000 budget to buy a quality car that will last 12 months in Atlanta’s wicked traffic. It’s damn near impossible.

I saw that Juan Dixon is available. You want a player with heart, fiercely competitive and stays intense at all times? That’s your guy. Straight up for Salim (from the Portland area) in a heart beat (and throw in some loss change). But again, those players cost that which we don’t have access to… MONEY!

By Tyger

February 6, 2007 03:56 PM | Link to this

I agree, the Hawks need an upgrade, but not sold on Luke Ridenour, just like the Sonics arent sold on him either. He’s a good young player but lacks any upside. But if we could trade Speedy for him, do it.

The college ranks are full of guards every year, that isnt the problem. see Acie Law, Ronald Steele, etc. BIGS are the ones hard to come by.

Our problem right now is Coaching Philosophy. Woody is stuck on this delusional 9 man rotation of his, which underutilizes the personnel we have. He cries all year about what he doesnt have, but doesnt use what he has.

On the back end of back to backs, JJ plays 50 and 46 min. respectively.Both Lue and Speedy hurt, but Ivey barely reaches the floor.

The Lakers are 7ft across the front, but does 6-11 shot blocking Solomon Jones even exist?

Team tired, slow, and out of sync - think hungry NBDL parkplug Jeremy Richardson couldve provided some energy and enthusiam???

Marvin certainly couldnt with 0-6 in 20 min. It happens, but on back-to-backs, you anticipate dead legs and look to the bench to help carry the load.

You cant tell me Ivey, Richardson, Jones, Medvendenko couldnt give 5-10 min. over the span of 4 qtrs. It’s this type of narrow-mindedness that holds us back.

One thing overachivers have in common is an innate ability to get the job done. They find ways to win, theyre creative, they take risks, they get more out of a situation, they demand more than can be expected.

And to lead this group, you’ve got to overachieve. Your’e not blessed with riches, so you’ve got to be more creative.

We dont have 9 grizzled vets that know how to win. We have 12 soph and jrs that need prodding and we need someone that can Coach them up, not down.

By mykhalc

February 6, 2007 04:05 PM | Link to this

TYGER, EXACTLY what you just said!! dead on point!!!

and JOE, SALIM for DIXON in a heart beat!!!

By mavid

February 6, 2007 04:11 PM | Link to this

Do you not realize that there are perfectly good reasons why players like ivey, solomon jones, and medvendenko dont get much playing time??

hmm, perhaps they are marginal NBA players at best.. that could be it

(note, i do like solomon’s energy and shot-blocking, but he is also a turnover waiting to happen and needs time to develop in the NBADL)

AJ, good call on lewis’ contract, i had forgotten about that

By J. Shuttlesworth

February 6, 2007 04:13 PM | Link to this

Blogmaster,

You proposed this a while ago, and I pointed out then that Ridnour just signed a contract extension with the Sonics. The Sonics want him, and he wants to be a Sonic. Additionally, paying him and Speedy 6.5 mil, along with a 3.5 mil Ticket Stub puts the PG position at 16mil next year. There’s no way that’ll work, and there’s no way any team would take Speedy back.

The bottom line is Speedy isn’t going anywhere (cause no one wants him at 6.5 mil), and that means he’s the PG for better or for worse.

By William

February 6, 2007 04:26 PM | Link to this

mykhalc, the only problem with you saying they are marginal players at best is that when they were given the minutes, they did very good things with them, especially Royal Ivy and Solomon Jones. Plus, Slava can shoot. He can’t do much else, but the guy can flat out shoot from the midrange and him at the PF or Center spelling people and opening up the inside for our slashers would really help because no one is following Zaza and Lo wright out the paint.

Solomon, when given the minutes played better than lo wright consistantly. Plus he is challenges shots. Ivey is a ball hawk with a very much improve midrange game, and doesn’t turn the ball over.

having dead tired players and guys playing hurt when you have very capable guys behind them(and once again, they have proven to be capable…not theoricially here) is unnaccetable.

And Poor Jermemy Richardson. Kid spreads the floor, is a pretty good defender, makes smart decisions with the ball and in return he gets a bunch of DNP.

By minor_leauges

February 6, 2007 04:43 PM | Link to this

my point from my first post is that lottery picks are supposed to be the face of your franchise. childress is not a starter, his jump shot is the ugliest in the leauge and he’s not a star. he isn’t the worst 6th man around, but teams need lottery picks to be wade, carmelo etc…not sheldon, josh and marvin.

draft picks go beyond what these guys do on the court. they have to give value to their pick. if sheldon and josh were drafted in the second round, then they are good picks. but to pick these guys as lottery picks is a joke.

By mykhalc

February 6, 2007 04:45 PM | Link to this

WILLIAM, that was MAVID not me!! as far as i’m concerned SPEEDY is a TO waitin’ to happen these days!! me, i’m ALL for givin’ the bench a look, especially SJONES, SLAVA, and RICHARDSON!!!

By Anakin Joe

February 6, 2007 05:08 PM | Link to this

minor_leagues, that is no longe true that lottery picks are supposed to be the face of your franchise. They have become the GMs best chance to gamble on potential. I’m not defending the Shelden selection. I was his biggest supporter and have been hugely disappointed. At the same time, I have also watched Woody misuse him. The other night against the Nets, he got off to a quick start in the first half. Was very aggressive on the baords, hit a very nice turn-around jumper in the taller Clifford Robinson’s face and seemed poised to have a solid showing. I don’t think he touched the floor after that nice run. We won the game so I can’t debate the end result. But I digress.

Take a look at the recent picks from 4-8. You’ll find some terrific players and some real duds. The lottery is not a guarantee anymore. Its like having a shot at lottery tickets that may pay off the most money but there is no guarantee that you have in fact a winning ticket. Bogut does not look like “the face of a franchise” but more like a budding #3 option. Mike Dunleavy? Dajuan Wagner? Chris Wilcox? Devin Harris? Decent players. All drafted VERY high. None of the franchise-changers. And that ‘03 draft was truly magical. Every team would love to have the ability to get a franchise player like Wade at #5. But look at the past 10 drafts and see how infrequently a franchise player is available that late in the draft. Bottom line, its a crap shoot. Some people are better than others at shooting crap, but its still a gamble, however you cut it.

By tired of it

February 6, 2007 05:16 PM | Link to this

Can we send marvin to the NBDL? Maybe he can develop a jump shot! Why not, he is just getting worse in this rotation. Maybe shelson can learn some low post moves in the NBDL? Since Woody isn’t going to teach them, maybe the NBDL is the only shot they have.

By mavid

February 6, 2007 05:21 PM | Link to this

mykhalc, i stand by my earlier statements… we’ll have to agree to disagree

By Dee

February 6, 2007 05:44 PM | Link to this

I think we should just be patient about all the trade talk and see where the ball drops..we MIGHT just get the #1 draft pick. HACK, Toronto did it and didnt deserve it. So let us continue to play hard and if we come up short in a win, then that places us in a good postion for the #1 pick at Oden.

And of course we need a PG..have u all checked-out Bobby Brown? No, not the x-singer from New Edition/Whitney Ex but the guy from California State Uni Fullerton? On nbadraft.net, they have him at the #36 pick, but I like his stats. To me, its better than Acie Law at #22. We get Oden & Brown, and fans just might start coming out to cheer for the Hawks and not Kobe/Wade/Lebron/etc..

By jordan

February 6, 2007 06:08 PM | Link to this

i think the ridnour trade is not gonna pull through because of the lack of leadership in the front office, we can stipulate about the trade rumors but billy never gets anything done, chances are, he’ll trade jj for a couple more forwards knowing how ignorant he is to the needs of this team, ridnour would be a good fit because we dont need somebody great we just need somebody decent to compliment jj, young interior player would be good as well because of Wrights age, either way i think we are starting to pull it together here in the last month and hopefully we are finally on the right track

By HB Ando

February 6, 2007 06:17 PM | Link to this

Jhan (thanks again, dude, for the kick-a* seats) touches on something that I brought up while talking it up with him and Doc (you guys should have heard Doc hollering at the referees-they really are just horrible).

So here’s the gist of the point: If the Spirit is conceding/anticipating defeat, at the hands of Belkin, and Billy KNOWS he’s the first guy who’s going to be booted out of town, then WHY would they lift a finger to improve the team, the value of the ASSET at question? Obviously, this battle is personal as heck. It’s essentially like losing your house to your ex-wife in a nasty divorce. Are you going to redo the kitchen, put in a new swimming pool and finish the basement, after she just got the courts to kick you a* out on the street? Of course not. More likely, you’ll leave it in a state of dis-repair, or, even worse, if you’re really spiteful, you’ll find some subtle ways to mess it up, lessen it’s value.

If the Spirit expect to lose this battle, it’s simply defies logic to believe that they’ll try to leave Belkin an optimal scenario to take over. Now, the courts, and the league, are not going to let them screw the team up in any obvious way. But they are not compelled to spend additional money, which they cannot recoup, or improve the future of the roster, just to hand it to the guy that spanked them in court and escorted them to the ranks of “former” NBA owners.

If you don’t acknowledge the realistic potential for such a scenario, you’re just not living in the real world (kind of like TB, who suggests that the big business of professional sports is governed by the honor of the “game”. Please TB, save that crap for Duke. There is no honor in professional sports. Pro football is ignoring an onslaught of emerging, permanent head injuries, to protect the revenues generated by the high-speed collisions chemically-created super humans. Baseball turned the other way and laughed all the way to the bank, while McGuire, Sosa and Bonds made negligible 80 years of history as the turnstiles spun at warp speed. There is no honor in professional sports. There choices to be made which improve your chances of making more money through athletic success and fan support).

Teams tank because they’ve calculated the odds of changing the face of the franchise by acquiring rare talent. Players can still play with effort and heart, while their franchise seeks to minimize the likelihood of wins. The two can coexist, even though they are seemingly at odds.

The only hope we have for any type of personnel changes, of substance, is if the Spirit, collectively, are convinced they will retain the teams. I don’t believe that is the case. And without that expectation, it’s simply illogical to believe that they’ll do a single thing to improve the condition of the Hawks, just before they’re escorted off the premises. They’re not going to spend an unnecessary dime on this franchise. Because there’s no way to recoup.

What you are seeing, on the court, is going to be a case of dancing with the one you brung. If they are to scratch their way to the eighth seed, they’ll do it with this roster. So the Hawks are 4.5 games out of the eighth seed. OK, but the 8th seed is the defending world champs, Miami, and Shaq is back, so what’s the realistic chance that they’re going to overtake the Heat? More pertinent is the fact that they’re only 2 games ahead (behind) Philly, for the 3 worst record in the NBA, and a solid chance at keeping they’re pick. I’ll continue to take the uncertainty of what a top-3 pick would mean for us, over the certainty that we WILL NOT make the playoffs, and WILL be giving a high lottery pick to what is arguably the most talented team in the NBA.

That’s just a no-brainer, when you factor in the reality that the Spirit ARE NOT going to do anything to improve this team. That’s the sad, simple truth.

By doc

February 6, 2007 06:53 PM | Link to this

yes folks they really are tht bad and jhan’s seats are really that good where you know the refs can hear you. it is fun to rub there noses in it a bit. at some point it has to stop this bit that you get the calls with respect and you dont otherwise. seems like we are watching international figure skating sometimes instead of a true sporting event.

topic of concern is one expressed by several for a long time. we are hostages and nothing can be done until owners are changed and someone is willing to spend some green stuff. it is fun to see folks at the game and the possibilites are huge if someone wants to do it. can you imagine the hype and good will the guy will get that actually comes here and wins a championship.

thanks jhan.

enjoyed the repartee ando.

best line of the night was jhan saying something along the lines of “how can you listen to ando when that is out there to watch”. the halters were particularly appealing in the first half for the hawks dancers. myhc guess i forgot to give you the pertinants to include the entertainment last night.

By Lewis G.J. Outlar

February 6, 2007 07:05 PM | Link to this

Bradley’s Hawks column is so dead-on it ought to embarrass someone in that organization enough to do what’s been needed for a long time, REALLY address the point guard issue. But I don’t think having the worst team in the league and being a front office that thrashes around ineffectively embarrasses Knight or the owners. Too bad.

By Jay

February 6, 2007 07:23 PM | Link to this

The only player that Seattle might want is Shelden, and thats doubtful. Our only other alternative is trading a draft pick. Problem is we dont know where that draft pick (indiana’s) is gonna be…and neither does Seattle. And though its a different sport, Ive hesitant to trade a #1 after the way the Falcons have had bad luck with it (Peerless, Abraham). Plus factor in we’d have to trade salaries…somehow I doubt they would take Speedy or Salim, so we’re out of luck there too. I just dont see it happening.

You mention Marcus Williams. Iirc he was around the #17 pick of the draft. Indiana’s pick would be somewhat near there…plus dont forget other decent pg’s taken in the late 1st round (Jarrett Jack comes to mind).

And while we’re close to the playoffs, we arent there yet…and there is a good chance we wont make it. The problems in the paint, I think, are just as bad as the pg situation. And even if we trade for someone, we’ll still have gimpy backups for him. And then there is Marvin and Smoove staying healthy, JJ not dying from playing so much, etc.

The best chance we have at Ridnour is a sign and trade or three-way trade in the offseason. But personally I rather draft a pg…there must be a reason Ridnour isnt starting anymore, especially when you consider Earl Watson is like a healthy Speedy to me (a good backup).

By mavid

February 6, 2007 07:24 PM | Link to this

wow, ando that was a depressing yet revealing post

if thats really the case, our hawk fandom would appear to be a waste of time (which it probably is at this point)

By Volman

February 6, 2007 08:07 PM | Link to this

seriously, Ando, very depressing.

I guess it IS true though..

There was a piece on the “Spirit” on Sports South, and the Spirit guys were at the Thrashers’ game and would call to see how the Hawks were doing, but really didn’t have any emotion at the outcome. It’s like the red-headed step child type thing.. Well, the Hawks are doing bad… we’ll turn our head in the other direction and act like nothing is going wrong.. The Thrashers are winning, right?

I really hope that Slava, Solomon, and even Richardson can get some playing time.. We’ve won a good amount recently, but I’d love to give them a chance to get out there and show what they can do.. and Slava DOES have a good jump shot (something Zaza doesn’t). What’s the worst that could happen.. we lose?

I don’t want any trades going down this season.. I want us to look at what pick(s) we will have next season and work from there.

sigh Go hawks.

By mykhalc

February 6, 2007 08:07 PM | Link to this

MAVID, no problems with disagreeing my friend. BUT YOUR perfectly GOOD? reason is none other than WOODSON!!! he’s ONE of the main reasons that the team lacks an identity of what kinda team they want to be, to run or not ro run?? when he’s got a full roster to choose from, his rotations suck!! and like TYGER said when you got back-to-backs and your regulars aren’t cuttin’ it, why wouldn’t/shouldn’t WOODSON be creative enough to give the other cats a shot. hell, RICHARDSON looked more confident in his shot than SALIM has all year!! untapped talent like SJONES CANNOT be any worse than WRIGHT and ZAZA!!??!! WOODSON’s lack of vision and creativity rolls downhill!! and i stand by my previous blog comments that WOODSON manages a game better when he’s got less choices!!!! you put JC, JJ, JS, MW and SJONES on the floor for 35-40 mins a game (barring obvious things like foul trouble, etc) and WATCH the identity manifest itself!!! he would not even have to coach ‘em. just do that ONE thing and watch what happens and what changes!!!

By mykhalc

February 6, 2007 08:30 PM | Link to this

yep DOC, you forgot AGAIN!!LOL when i make it back your way we definitely gotta catch a game together man!!

ANDO, you always make great points BUT i see things in such the opposite way you do, most of the time!!

1) do you honestly believe that the SPIRIT GROUP thinks they’ll lose to BELKIN??? hell no bro they believe they’ll win otherwise they’d settle!! ‘cause if they truly believed they’d lose, and belkin (i won’t even put his name in caps) truly WANTS the team then there would have been movement, talk , etc. no bro, right or wrong the SPIRIT are in it until death KNOWING (right or wrong) the law and the interpretation of the law is on their side!! you don’t keep payin’ the bill when you KNOW you are gonna file for bankruptcy!!!

in the infamous words of EINSTEIN, “You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.” this franchise, from the top down, has proven that without a doubt!!!! but they’ve taken it a step further. they’ve done neither, PREVENT NOR PREPARE!!!!!

By ray

February 6, 2007 08:32 PM | Link to this

Gee, since we’re not tanking “good” enough, and we have no idea when the court case is going to be settled (or if the result will be good for Hawks fans and the team), then why indeed are we here on this blog? I don’t really want an answer to that.

I guess no matter how bad the product is, with the right seats, it ain’t so bad after all. Heh.

By Anakin Joe

February 6, 2007 08:35 PM | Link to this

Ando I commend you for saying what I have said for over a year. I guess it took John Hollinger or some other revelation for you to “see the light”. Congratulations on recognizing that which was pretty clear when they refused to replace Jason Collier last October.

By BosnianBaller

February 6, 2007 08:36 PM | Link to this

AS long as Woodson and BK are here we are going to suck.Getting ridonour would do nothing.I hope we get a top three pick if not PHX gets it.Ridonur is a good player but he is not the solution.I watched a lot of sonics games this year and while he is good he would not be that much of a difference.This hawks team has no prayer for making the playoffs.We have no depth what so ever.We have no center.Geezers for point guard even though lue is a good point guard.I don’t know why we don’t get David Anderson from CSKA Moscow since we have his draft rights.He is one of the best big men in the euro league.He can hit the three and also post up.

As long as the buddy system of the 1980-1981 sac kings roster(BK,Woodson,Drew,)are running this team we are going to blow.We all knew we should not of drafted M.Williams or S.Williams the past two years and we gave up Harrington 20 and 10 for a late 1st rd pick thats ridiculous.I’m out

By mykhalc

February 6, 2007 08:40 PM | Link to this

and SEKOU, totally think a big is needed more than a PG!! and judging from JJ’s comments in one of your last article’s, i think he feels the SAME way!! JJ’s take on it we need shot-blockin’, board-houndin’ big…PERIOD!!!

By jhan

February 6, 2007 09:05 PM | Link to this

No question a big would help this team more than a PG. Like Sekou said, we don’t have a prayer of trading for a legit big right now. It takes too much $$ & assets. Both of which we are very short on right now.

By Volman

February 6, 2007 09:11 PM | Link to this

BosnianBaller, please no more run-on sentences. I’m out.

I really don’t care if we have a PG or not.. We need a BIG to clog up the middle. L-Wright does it SOMETIMES, but we need someone who will be a difference. I will take J-Chill at point right now if we could get a good big.

By HB Ando

February 6, 2007 09:45 PM | Link to this

Joe, don’t hurt your arm patting yourself on the back. The Spirit had no reason to believe that the team would be anything but theirs until this past spring. So the impact of potentially losing the franchise BACK to Belkin had absolutely zero impact the failure to replace Collier. There’s no tangible relationship between the current legal situation and Billy’s inactivity 15 months ago.

And, as a matter of fact, it was I who first discussed the implications of the legal 180 Belkin and his lawyers pulled on the hapless Spirit, the day after the ruling, while everyone else was arguing over which side they’d rather see win.

But if you want to delude yourself that I just stumbled my way upon your long standing truth, my primary purpose in life is to make you feel good about yourself.

What you HAVE been saying for over a year is that the broke-a* owners are almost completely responsible for Billy’s lack of action, which has been a valid point, though it in no way absolves him, in my mind, of a lengthy string of atrocious decisions when he did act. But the idea that the lack of financial commitment, PRIOR to Belkin pulling the reverse on the Spirit, is some how the same as the reality that it’s illogical to expect the Spirit to extend effort, financial or otherwise, to improve the future of an entity they are about to give up, is an enormous leap. I’m just not clear on how you came up with any real connection there.

But you are the smartest man here, so who am I to question your logic?

Unfortunately, we did not get to check in with Sekou, despite an intent to. We saw him walking off during the beginning of half time, and then we didn’t make it back to our seats until after the 3rd had begun. And we missed the very beginning of tip off, because the Atlanta Police Department has confused standing in the vicinity of a traffic nightmare with actively directing traffic in an orderly manner.

Sorry, SS, but we’ll catch you next time.

By Wedgie Evans

February 6, 2007 10:50 PM | Link to this

First of all, the Hawks definitely need an inside presence more than they need a point guard. The point guards ain’t great but at least they are capable of doing something. In Lue and Stoudamire’s case, they stretch the defense and knock down clutch shots; in Speedy’s case, he create turnovers (for both teams), and in Ivey’s case he provides good defense. The bigs, on the other hand, can’t block shots, can’t rebound consistently, can’t defend without fouling, and can’t score consistently. Not having a good big guy puts tremendous pressure on Josh Smith to help out on interior defense, when he could be playing passing lanes and creating turnovers instead; it also ends up getting him into foul trouble too often.

Assuming Johnson and Josh Smith are not up for trade, the only Hawks player I can think of that the Sonics might want is Marvin Williams. Aside from the fact that Marvin’s a Seattle native, Rashard Lewis has a player option for next season, and if he declines it the Sonics may have a tough time plugging that hole. If they think Marvin might develop into an adequate replacement for Rashard Lewis at some point, they may be interested in trading for him. They do have a few talented (but raw) big guys, like Robert Swift, Saer Sene, Johan Petro and Nick Collison… maybe they would be willing to trade one of them. Ridnour would be a nice acquisition because a guy like him can run an up-tempo offense, but if Mike Woodson continues to slow down the tempo of the game Ridnour and Woodson may end up meshing poorly. I still think a big guy is the Hawks’ biggest need, and that’s who they should be pursuing in a potential trade.

By doc

February 6, 2007 10:53 PM | Link to this

ando, it is well established that money had a big reason for not replacing collier last year. money issues were one of the original breaks in the relationship between spirit before the jj thing went down. if they didnt have the money as a larger group why would they have big sums now or last year? it is not that they are hesitant as the decision comes close. they are spending the same for the tharshers and the hawks. unfortunately, there is a real cap in hockey with teeth with the spirit at max so the hockey team is cmpetitive. they are about 70-80 mil behind the max spent in the nba with short pockets. cant compete like that and bring in an overpaid big. our bigs in total bring in what one benchwarmer brings on most clubs.

ando, your memory is too good on everything else to have forgotten they had set a limit on what they would and could afford just like they did this past summer shown when they wouldnt pick up the contracts with the warriors. look at how the pacers are doing with the guys we could have had easy but having to cough up another 10 to 15 mil a year not knowing if it was their’s or his when speaking of the spirit. cant prove it as i am not on their board but it is a reach to think otherwise. i too have been saying it a long time as well but added that this franchise is probably crippled money wise no matter who gets the team unless there is an infusion of money with new investors no matter who grabs the franchise. now that is depressing because who would want to work with any of these cut throat backstabbers on both sides? i think the best solution is a compromise of some kind where the pieces are broken into the hawks going to belkins and the phillps and thashers going to the other side.

now to really depress you guys i have said for a long time all this talk of trades is just an idiots game and is just mental masturbation but quietly a year ago i suggested that jj’s contract was very good from the angle that he is going to be very attractive as trade bait in the future. he is the best trade bait we have to obtaining a few young guys or draft picks as he goes to someone else in their push towards the playoffs. you can talk about gasol or watch the possible trade of pierce this year but only shudder to think the ramifications for the hawks as a new guy comes in here and wants to make his own stamp on the team and save some money while “planning for the future”. it is not out of the question that this could come down and to think otherwise is just burying your heads.

By doc

February 6, 2007 10:56 PM | Link to this

mykh im up for it when you make it to town, could catch a braves game if it is after the basketball season. it would be an honor.

By reese

February 7, 2007 01:46 AM | Link to this

BK said we need an all forward team of 6’7 thru 6’9. BK said we need woodson to lead this team. Josh Childress said we need salim. Steve Smith says we need speedy because he was an integral part to San Antonio’s championship (yeah if we had tim duncan and david robinson). Mike Kryzeski of duke said that shelden is a leader and that he would be a good pick. T lue and zaza say we need Slava medvenko. Wow Sekou, Ridenour is the best you can think of. I believe that a player by the name of antonio daniels was more important to the team than ridenour. I believe that Jerome James was more important than collinson.

What has happened to Seattle with Ridenour and Collinson as replacements. Shall we say that they have gone down hill.

ray allen and rashad lewis are a little better than the combo of jj and Josh Smith. What makes anyone think that ridenour and collinson would improve the hawks.

I’m at a loss for words. Good night.

By jeremy

February 7, 2007 02:06 AM | Link to this

man,i would love to get ridnour, Johan Petro, and Nick Collison. but, i still believe Z is on the way up. if he’ll stop all his goofy stuff tryig to get fouls all the time, he could easily be a 20-10 guy. easily. all he needs is a guy like speedy to keep pickin and rolling with him.

i dont know why everyone knocks speedy. it’s so stinkin’ obvious he can school most teams when he comes in. And dont forget he’s at the top in steals in the league and he doesnt even play full minutes.

but to be honest on the trades…I’d like to bring in someone that the urban community could embrace at the guard spot. dont get me wrong, the urban community doesnt care, im guessing, if the pg is white or black or latin or whatever…just as long as he produces well, but still…i think a black pg would be great for the young urban community…hopefully some guy who is a role model or something. and im a white dude saying this.

now…if i could have anyone in before the trade deadline…id go with Nene alllllll the way. denver i think is like new york and overstocked with talent and even worse…high salaries. they already have camby, AI, carmelo, JR, reggie evans, and now steve blake. they could totally trade with us.

id almost take steve blake over ridnour.

By Crafty Veteran

February 7, 2007 08:54 AM | Link to this

Adding Ridnour would just continue to add to our lineup of average to below average players. I don’t ever see Luke Ridnour being the starting point guard for a true championship contender. He can barely beat out Earl Watson for playing time, and Watson is a poor man’s Speedy/Lue combo. The Hawks have two legitimate players in Joe and Josh Smith. Everyone else is expendable and should be viewed that way. We did a good job of not signing overyhyped big men like Nene, Dampier, and Kenyon Martin, but failed at the point guard spot. I don’t think we should compound our problems by adding another average point guard.

By LekkerInnit

February 7, 2007 09:13 AM | Link to this

Ridnour would be an upgrade over Speedy - he plays an entire season, Speedy is lucky to play a third of a season. Just in this alone, you have won already.

And knowing that Gasol is on the trading block (as he wants out and Memphis wants to cut salary) the Hawks would be stupid not to at least negotiate and see what they have to give up in order to get Gasol (although I doubt the Hawks management are up to that).

Management issues aside, here is my blockbuster trade to get the Hawks right into playoff contention. It’s a 3 team trade with Memphis and Seattle. Before I start, all salaries match so this trade would succeed by NBA rules.

Hawks get Ridnour and Gasol; Memphis get Salim, Speedy, Marvin and Esteban; Seattle get Ivey and Warrick. We would have to give up Ivey, Salim, Speedy, Marvin and Esteban to make this work.

Hawks would automatically be a playoff team with Ridnour, JJ, J Smoove, Gasol and Zaza. Bench thinner (Chil, Solomon, Lue, Shelden, Wright) but then the Hawks could be a little more active in the FA market with this line-up. Also, in 2 years the Hawks have 7 players out of contract and this trade eliminates 2 of them (Salim and Marvin).

Memphis gets a decent return for Gasol (Marvin and Speedy) and Salim gets to be with his cousin. Esteban is just an expiring contract for them. All they have to give up is Warrick and Gasol (whom wants out anyway).

Seattle gets Ivey (expiring contact) and another athletic big in Warrick. They give up Ridnour (whom doesn’t play much in Seattle anyway).

All said, if I was Woody and BK (thankfully I am not), this is one trade that would make perfect sense for the Hawks. It’s rare to get the opportunity to get this much talent with only giving up really Marvin.

By Dee

February 7, 2007 09:26 AM | Link to this

LekkerInnit I like that trade suggestion…anyone can go except JJ, Jsmoove, Jchill!!

By HB Ando

February 7, 2007 10:19 AM | Link to this

OK, Doc, I don’t get it. You’re suggesting that the financial restraints are one, long string, that runs from failing to fund a replacement to Collier, the Spirit expecting to oust Belkin, Belkin turning the tables, to now? OK, then explain $28 million for Speedy.

Look, much has changed, internally, since Collier’s passing, to the present, whether we’re privy to the ugly details or not. Now I am making some assumptions regarding the quiet that underscores the expected, ongoing legal wrangling. There hasn’t been a positive peep out of the Spirit, that I’m aware of, regarding the eventual outcome of their battle. As time moves forward, and looming deadlines grow closer, logic dictates that options for a successful Spirit outcome become smaller and smaller.

So, what I’m saying is: IF the Spirit now anticipate that they will ultimately lose the teams. AND, if the financial terms of such a Belkin buy-out are fixed, then ALL unnecessary spending will be stopped, as they try to squeeze as much near-term profit as possible out of the assets. Now, the courts have already put some limitations on spending, that would impact the franchise in the future, should Belkin succeed. And clearly, since the Spirit did commit $28 million to adding Speedy (which means they COULD have spent money at any other time before then, in either replacing Collier with a free agent, OR taking back some type of salaried talent in exchange for Al Harrington, which pretty much nullifies any argument that they COULDN’T AFFORD to do ANYTHING), there is support for both some resources existing, as well as, at least during the summer, an expectation that the Spirit would prevail.

OK, following me here, Doc (and maybe Joe)?

Based on that rationale, ALL I’m saying is that if the Spirit, internally, expects to end up losing the teams, in what has become, or been for a long time, a nasty personal battle, of large ego’s, then expecting them to lift a finger to improve the structure of this franchise (thus, the previous analogy to man losing house to wife in divorce), is simply unlikely, on both a practical (financial) and emotional level.

There is simply no reason for the Spirit to leave Belkin anything better than what is already here. The human inclination would be to leave as big a mess as possible, which is pretty close to what he would get even if they were trying to make things nice, because they have a catastrophe for a general manager, in Billy Knight.

So, to summarize, since I obviously wasn’t too clear, pointing to the money, PRIOR to Belkin turning the tables, is different than the supposed financial implications that exist now. Two different time frames and two different scenarios. Doesn’t mean that money isn’t an impacting factor. But to view it as one extended string of limited financial resources simply doesn’t fit. Whether the Spirit has, or had, money, isn’t really my point. They’re trying to figure out how much they going to get shorted by the courts and Belkin. And that would p** anyone off, whether it’s an NBA franchise, or splitting your 401k with your soon-to-be ex-wife.

Don’t expect long-term improvements, or short-term for that matter, from the Spirit, as they are walking out the door.

If I’m wrong, then a trade, with long-term implications, both on the court and financially, would reinforce that the Spirit had hope, and that hope could be objectified by the ruling courts’ right to limit any additional future financial burdens on what it has ruled will be Belkin’s assets.

No movement likely is a tacit admission, by the Spirit, that they are lame duck, and, even if they could make things better, there’s simply no motivation to improve what will be Belkin’s franchise.

By Anakin Joe

February 7, 2007 11:48 AM | Link to this

Ando, I’m not so sure that they think they will “likely lose” the team. But certainly, even if there were a “chance” (as opposed to likely), I think they would still be hesitant to spend money. Simply put, why invest if there is a chance that there could be no return on that investment? Even if the chances are 30%, that is still a risky proposition. As I have said repeatedly, the only reason why you go into business with a bunch of guys is because of individual financial constraints. That is the first clue that these guys would be prudent (cheap), the fact that it took 7-8 of them to raise enough money to bid for the team.

We basically agree. Except I don’t think that they have to “expect to lose”. I think recognizing the possibility is enough to keep them from spending dough.

Regarding the Speedy deal, it appears they are mostly running their books one season at a time. They dumped about $10M between Al and Delk last season and brought in about the same between Speedy and Wright. If they lose the team, they obviously don’t have to pay the remainder of Speedy’s deal… that burden goes to the new owner (thus the court injunction that initially declared only 1-year deals before the owners worked out a compromise).

Again, if rumors are true and they don;t want to spend an extra $2-3M to upgrade the coaching position, there is very little chance they will spend $2-3M on upgrading a player. The much better investment would be in a better coach (vs. a lower-level player, even in a position of need).

By Anakin Joe

February 7, 2007 11:57 AM | Link to this

One more thing about “leaving a big mess”, Ando. That would pretty much disqualify those guys from ever bidding on another sports franchise if they vandalized their own team during this divorce. It may even impact future non-sports related dealings to financially mismanage a business like that. Keep in mind that these guys likely secured loans to bankroll the initial purchase. Any intentional harm could also impact those lending institutions. Not investing in finishing the basement is a lot different than taking a sledge hammer to the granite-top counters. (And the mortgage company wouldn’t like that anymore than the ex-wife).

By Dunk on them both

February 7, 2007 02:27 PM | Link to this

Anakin,

your post probably states the deepest truth about your atlanta hawks: they are on lock down until the ownership mess is cleared up. sad but true. We’re gonna have to circle the wagons and go ‘Major League’ on the rest of the league & win the whole friggin’ thing with the guys we have.

that little bit of reality aside, LekkerInnit’s trade idea is brilliant. It makes strengths out of our biggest weaknesses and coverts some of our future potential into present performance. This is something we have to do at some point. If not, all we are going to do is draft & develop talent & wait for them to sign somewhere else because they become worth more than we can pay or they are just plain sick of losing. At this rate we would be nothing more than a defacto NBDL team.

Fire Billy & Woody

By mavid

February 7, 2007 02:55 PM | Link to this

reese

i would go look at what collisons been doing lately before you go knocking him. the dude was drafted in the lottery, but got injured his first couple seasons. he now seems to be playing to the level that was expected of him after his days at kansas (ray allen has repeatedly said he thinks the guy is a future all-star). ridnour isnt my favorite, but he does play an uptempo game that suits us. plus, he is a pure shooter that would compliment JJ.

while lewis is a better offesnive player than smoove, smoove does a lot more all around. ray and jj are a wash.

i think the trade works well for us.

lekkerinnit, good trade proposal my man. not sure the other teams would go for it, but i would love it if they did

By HB Ando

February 7, 2007 03:09 PM | Link to this

Joe, no doubt. That’s why my supposition is “do nothing to improve” versus “scorched earth”. But the underlying point remains that there is little reason to believe that a move will be made to improve this team, whether it is lean resources by a Spirit group which hopes to maintain control, or simply a matter of neither wasting resources they cannot recoup if they do lose control, or not wanting to do anything of benefit for the incoming, former partner, in Belkin.

I mean if we’re down to arguing over “likely lose” versus “chance”, could we be having a more semantic argument? Especially given that neither one of us has a factual clue about the status of the legal battle.

I’ll go back to what I’ve said for a while, which you should actually find supportive of your “brokeback” owners theory. IF the remaining Spirit are truly so limited in resources, then one can only hope that a change is in the offing. And then one is left to hope that Belkin’s finances are greater, or that he will be bringing in new partners, with deeper pockets than his old. Remember that the only folks who intimated that Belkin wanted to run the team on the cheap were his former partners………

And if I’m trading the devil I know for the one I don’t, I’ll take my chances, knowing that, at the least, Billy Knight will be OUTTA HERE!

By phil

February 7, 2007 03:11 PM | Link to this

I don’t want to acquire Ridnour if it means trading Marvin. The better bet would be to try and draft a young PG in next year’s draft. As someone pointed out, we are most likely stuck with Speedy and his contract. To take on another big contract at PG isn’t gonna cut it. Give Sheldon and Solomon more minutes and see if you can develop one of them. I’d like to see more out of Jeremy Richardson too. He looks like he could be much better than Salim off the bench in what little i’ve seen of him. Heck, let Batista and Ivey play as well. Lets face it, unless the Hawks are serious about trading for Gasol (which I dont think they are) whoever they get isn’t likely going to make much more of an impact over whatever they already have. Unless there is a no brainer deal like trading Salim (who definitely needs a change of scenery) for a big or a young PG then I say hold with what we’ve got until the off-season.

By Fraaank

February 7, 2007 03:15 PM | Link to this

How about this one… Marvin Williams and Claxton to Utah for Kirilenko. Weeee

By Tyger

February 7, 2007 03:30 PM | Link to this

Speedy Claxton, Salim for Jerome James, Nate Robinson*

By doc

February 7, 2007 03:47 PM | Link to this

ando, they didnt increase spending significantly when they brought in speedy as they lost significant dollars in not resigning al. they just about replaced the money for al with the money for TWO players in ren and speedy. they still havent come close to that imaginary thing called “exceeding the cap” which you didnt argue was a cheap illusion to protect the franchises image not the reality when we briefly discussed it monday at the game. there is a cap in hockey and cap in the nfl with teeth but only a figment of the imagination in the baseball world and the nba. to think otherwise is foolish and naive. i pray you dont fall for it or fall into either of those categories, you dont strike me as such though some on this blog might.

now, though it doesnt look it, speedy is a guard on the cheap in the nba at about 5 mil a year. if you could find one in free agency that is better be my guest. didnt the suns overpay for the guy they got in banks to set the going rate, i am not sure he would be that helpful here even if bk had spent for him nor him an upgrade as he didnt seem to be used that much last night in nash’s absence; 18 minutes, 3 assists and 4 points. werent some clamoring for him after the season? i remember you werent one of them but give bk some credit for not going that route.

i also seem to remember that there were some rumblings about the speedy signing and there may have been a court date over the issue so that the spirit COULDNT increase payroll significantly without belkin input. ando, i dont doubt that there could be a lot of back room stuff that could hurt belkin because he is smart enough to pull out his legal eagles to avoid the problem you suggest and may have already done it when speedy was signed is my guess.

finally, this franchise was cash strapped coming to the party in 2003 and conceived this notion of rebuilding a team from the ground up or on the cheap. though it was folly to think they could do it as many have tried and failed, they arrogantly went ahead with bk as their guide. it hasnt changed now if you forgot the history of this franchise the last 24 months, it was strapped before the separation that turned into a divorce. to read it or state it otherwise overlooks a bit of history. if you cant equate it to the non-signings of the last year and a half then that is your story, take off the blinders. it is obvious they owners cant come out and say they werent going to spend for more after collier’s passing just as they cant come out and say they will do nothing to improve the competitive components of this team as it would be very hard to sell tickets. you have stated yourself it has nothing to do with honor when it comes to money in the nba

any business that is about to be sold is put into a freeze when it comes to capital spending increases. that is what you are seeing with this group and have since its the fallout began as they have not gone beyond what they have to spend to keep it running. they are figuratively speaking, paying the hired help, the gas and electrical bills and the necessary overhead as would be expected as they go to court but nothing more. to do otherwise would be foolish and i am sure there are legal advisers, tax attourneys and cpa’s by the handfull to tell them how to NOT spend their money at this point as we dream of ways for them to spend it.

it is about the owners and will be for a long time unless there are new investors and a quick change in spending philosophy when all is said and done. if there is no change then we are hostages. we will continue to see a terrible product on the floor and have to listen to the opponents fans yell encouragement like we did at the laker game monday night where there was just about as many laker fans if not more than fools like us yelling for the home team. when kobe sank those shots it reminded me of the night in 1980 with roundtree and the hawks were slaying bird and the celts except back then it was fun to hear more for our side, my how things have changed as atlanta has grown. you were just getting to the point where you could really find trouble about then and probably couldnt care less about the hawks at that point in your development.

again i continue the refrain from the last year and a half, it is the owners stupid.

now where is atf when i need him to watch my back?

By gb

February 7, 2007 03:57 PM | Link to this

lekkerinnit why don’t you just trade estabin straight up fo gasol. then trade lorenzen for tim duncan and trade salim for jason kidd. we would have a good team and the other would get cap relief.

By doc

February 7, 2007 04:02 PM | Link to this

ando, they didnt increase spending significantly when they brought in speedy as they lost significant dollars in not resigning al. they just about replaced the money for al with the money for TWO players in ren and speedy. they still havent come close to that imaginary thing called “exceeding the cap” which you didnt argue was a cheap illusion to protect the franchises image not the reality when we briefly discussed it monday at the game. there is a cap in hockey and cap in the nfl with teeth but only a figment of the imagination in the baseball world and the nba. to think otherwise is foolish and naive. i pray you dont fall for it or fall into either of those categories, you dont strike me as such though some on this blog might.

now, though it doesnt look it, speedy is a guard on the cheap in the nba at about 5 mil a year. if you could find one in free agency that is better be my guest. didnt the suns overpay for the guy they got in banks to set the going rate, i am not sure he would be that helpful here even if bk had spent for him nor him an upgrade as he didnt seem to be used that much last night in nash’s absence; 18 minutes, 3 assists and 4 points. werent some clamoring for him after the season? i remember you werent one of them but give bk some credit for not going that route.

i also seem to remember that there were some rumblings about the speedy signing and there may have been a court date over the issue so that the spirit COULDNT increase payroll significantly without belkin input. ando, i dont doubt that there could be a lot of back room stuff that could hurt belkin because he is smart enough to pull out his legal eagles to avoid the problem you suggest and may have already done it when speedy was signed is my guess.

finally, this franchise was cash strapped coming to the party in 2003 and conceived this notion of rebuilding a team from the ground up or on the cheap. though it was folly to think they could do it as many have tried and failed, they arrogantly went ahead with bk as their guide. it hasnt changed now if you forgot the history of this franchise the last 24 months, it was strapped before the separation that turned into a divorce. to read it or state it otherwise overlooks a bit of history. if you cant equate it to the non-signings of the last year and a half then that is your story, take off the blinders. it is obvious they owners cant come out and say they werent going to spend for more after collier’s passing just as they cant come out and say they will do nothing to improve the competitive components of this team as it would be very hard to sell tickets. you have stated yourself it has nothing to do with honor when it comes to money in the nba

any business that is about to be sold is put into a freeze when it comes to capital spending increases. that is what you are seeing with this group and have since its the fallout began as they have not gone beyond what they have to spend to keep it running. they are figuratively speaking, paying the hired help, the gas and electrical bills and the necessary overhead as would be expected as they go to court but nothing more. to do otherwise would be foolish and i am sure there are legal advisers, tax attourneys and cpa’s by the handfull to tell them how to NOT spend their money at this point as we dream of ways for them to spend it.

it is about the owners and will be for a long time unless there are new investors and a quick change in spending philosophy when all is said and done. if there is no change then we are hostages. we will continue to see a terrible product on the floor and have to listen to the opponents fans yell encouragement like we did at the laker game monday night where there was just about as many laker fans if not more than fools like us yelling for the home team. when kobe sank those shots it reminded me of the night in 1980 with roundtree and the hawks were slaying bird and the celts except back then it was fun to hear more for our side, my how things have changed as atlanta has grown. you were just getting to the point where you could really find trouble about then and probably couldnt care less about the hawks at that point in your development.

again i continue the refrain from the last year and a half, it is the owners stupid.

now where is atf when i need him to watch my back?

By BadgerDawg

February 7, 2007 04:51 PM | Link to this

The reason Lekker’s proposal sounds so good is because it is good for the Hawks and not the other teams. I heard Gasol rumors to Chicago for a package including Ben Gordon. That’s a more reasonable trade package. On the Hawk’s level, including Smoove or Chill would be the only way Memphis would even listen IMO. If no good draft pick is available, they’re also going to want Marvin and Salim as an example. If Gasol comes to Hawks, he is(arguably) the best player on the team the minute he steps on the court. You don’t give away that type of player. I remember hearing Wilkins for Jordan trade proposals from equally serious people 20 years ago.

By tONYg

February 7, 2007 05:44 PM | Link to this

marvin for luke straight up

By Dustin

February 7, 2007 06:30 PM | Link to this

who cares, all the hawks should be concerned about is loosing as many games as possible to get a top 2 pick in the draft!! otherwise the hawks will always be mediocire at best!

By HB Ando

February 7, 2007 08:27 PM | Link to this

Doc, it’s not that I don’t understand your position. I’m just saying that there is a clear differentiation between being on the cheap and being on the way out, with no upside to bettering that which they are leaving. I’m just dialing down a little deeper into the analysis here, because there’s not much else new to say.

You have to admit that there is a difference between them being relatively broke, from an NBA owner standpoint, and them realizing they’re about to lose their house, in a divorce settlement, to their soon-to-be ex-wife.

So if you and Joe are right, and I’m right about the position they find themselves in, legally, then there are now TWO reasons we won’t see any type of transactions to improve this roster. Obviously, we only needed one last season. So two is the final nail in the coffin of optimism, or the home base which you and others have positioned yourselves in.

You and Joe can tell me it’s one, not the other, but aren’t the implications for the immediate future exactly the same? And since the three of us, collectively, have zero inside access, aren’t we all just surmising?

Simply stated, my bet is on no meaningful transactions to improve this roster. If I’m right about that, does anyone really care what the genesis is/was? We’re screwed either way.

Since we’re playing the “what if” trade scenario game, watching this NJ team brings up an idea. Here’s the deal: Shelden, who went fifth last draft, and Speedy, who was supposedly good enough of a veteran PG to drop $28 million on, for Marcus, Sekou’s guy, and a player who went 17 picks after Shelden, and NJ’s pick in the upcoming draft, which should be in the 20 range. Now, if Billy’s talent assessment were to be valid, this should be a no-brainer for NJ, who lacks an inside shot-blocking/defensive presence. They get a top-5 pick, and a veteran back up for Kidd. Truth is, that NJ would turn it down. Because Shelden and Speedy are both duds, relative to their draft slot and contract, respectively.

Folks here can offer their subjective opinions of Billy’s eye for talent. But when the rest of the league undervalues his assets, it’s proof positive that he’s made bad decisions. The fact that we’d be better off with a rookie point guard that went 17 picks after Shelden, and the unknown of what we’d get with a pick in the 20 range, in next years’ draft, versus having to pay Speedy the remainder of his $28 million mistake, further reinforces just how badly Billy has hamstrung this roster.

Imagine what we could package right now if we had Roy instead of Shelden. If you don’t think we could get Gasol for Marvin and Roy, you’re kidding yourself. But we’ll never know, because Billy, and the Spirit have no intention of making a move for this roster.

Man, does it suck to be a Hawks fan.

By mavid

February 7, 2007 08:34 PM | Link to this

^^ yep, shelden amounts to a wasted pick IMO… shouldve just give that one to phoenix

j-smoove came to play tonight!

By Wedgie Evans

February 7, 2007 09:37 PM | Link to this

Considering how badly the Hawks played today, it’s amazing that they even had a chance to win it at the end. Stupid plays all throughout the game, Joe Johnson played like a rookie, and Josh Smith was the only good player today (while he was on the floor). Why the hell was Jeremy Richardson taking the game-winning shot?

By Richie Rich

February 7, 2007 09:39 PM | Link to this

You guy’s need to compare the stats between Shelden and Paul Millsap of Utah… Yep it’s true, BillyBoy picked another scrub in the top 10.

By ajw

February 7, 2007 10:13 PM | Link to this

Don’t the Spirit own the Thrashers too? Has anyone here watched them recently. The crowd is rockin’ and the team is really good with some proven players. It just goes to show that white people pay to go to the hockey and baseball games in Atlanta, but at the Hawks game the percentage of white people is maybe 5%. That is a huge market that doesn’t want to waste money on a bad product. Plus, every white person I have talked to has no idea how good the Hawks could be and how entertaining they are now. I love watching these games. Sure they have some quircks, but with experience they will get worked out.

By scribe

February 7, 2007 10:44 PM | Link to this

two words: Chris Paul. Another screw up in Hawks history. I can’t pay that type of money for 10th in the East product..

By reese

February 7, 2007 11:37 PM | Link to this

Mavid, I don’t have to look up anything to know that I don’t want to watch Collinson nor Ridenour.

I have seen them play and I judge my opinions on what I enjoy watching. Neither of them fit the bill. I’d rather see Speedy than ridenour. I’d rather see zaza than collinson.

Statements like bringing collinson to the hawks just backs up what billy knight is trying to do. Just with different players. Do you realize that collinson is only 6’9”.

Well Mavid, I took your advice and compared collinson to zaza on NBA.com. Did you know that zaza is averaging more points, assists and steals than Collinson. Neither is averaging 1 block a game and the rebounding difference is only 1.

I don’t understand why so many bloggers want to get smaller with collinson. We need a shot blocker/rebounder who is taller than any player we have right now. Nothing less or just develop what we have by playing them.

By reese

February 7, 2007 11:59 PM | Link to this

Now for tonights game recap. Marvin Williams joins Josh smith with having entries in every positive offensive/defensive category.

Medvenko gets to play and shows that he is not afraid to shoot. Too bad he only shoots 33%. But for 1 brief moment I thought that Woodson was going to play to big men together for some extended minutes. He only teases.

At least the game was close and I can see that the players who get to play are trying hard to win.

I just wish that someone would teach woodson about placing a defensive team on the floor when your team is up and there are 14 seconds left in the game.

JJ has not demonstrated all year that he is capable of stopping anybody from scoring. He has played heavy minutes and there is not a center in the game who has the mentallity to assist a player when their man beats them off the dribble.

Then in the post game interview, woodson states that you can’t win when your star player goes 5 of 16.

Well woodson if your reading. You can win if your star player goes 5 of 16 if the head coach doesn’t play him 43 minutes, if the head coach realizes that Mikki Moore is scoring 19 points because you won’t put in a player like Solomon Jones who weighs about the same.

I thought that Childress was making some improvement with holding the ball a little longer and dribbling strong to the basket. Then, he goes and passes the ball away to a 10 day contract player instead of taking the shot himself. Even if he misses the shot, woodson didn’t have a rebounder in the game to slam the missed shot in or get fouled trying.

New Jersey gets layup to win the game. Hawks miss 25 foot jump shot to lose.

1 final note to Joe Johnson. We all realize that you can’t score 27 every night. However, please do like Josh Smith and Marvin. Get more steals, block a shot, get more rebounds and get more assists.

By david

February 8, 2007 12:09 AM | Link to this

919vitmins.com For all your natural vitamin needs.

By Clyde

February 8, 2007 12:27 AM | Link to this

We need Solomon Jones

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By ray

February 8, 2007 12:37 AM | Link to this

Nothing new to say? heh…what a revelation. We sit here and say that there’s really nothing to talk about ‘til the ownership situation is over with. When did “nothing” take so many paragraphs to expound upon? Oh this is fun….

By mavid

February 8, 2007 12:50 AM | Link to this

reese

thats not what i said. i said look at collisons stats of LATE. over the last few weeks in the starting role, he has averaged a double-double

ok, so zaza stats may be similar this season on the whole. but that doesnt matter. collison has emerged in the last little while when GIVEN THE CHANCE TO. their coach didnt play him often earlier this season.

and he is a legit 4 straight up. im not saying he is a 5. but he’s also not a 3 (like smoove and marvin).

but yeah. im not saying that trade would make us great. we would be better though.

a legit 5 is what we really need… noone is debating that

By mykhalc

February 8, 2007 12:58 AM | Link to this

RAY, i hear ya!!!

so SALIM back in the doghouse???

what makes WOODSON NOT do the things that are sooooooooooo obvious to most of us??

By reese

February 8, 2007 02:09 AM | Link to this

Not a problem Mavid, its that I’m looking for players who will bring excitement, athleticism and who are compliments to what we have. I just don’t see ridenour being that guy that can help Joe Johnson cover dwayne wade or gilbert arenas.

I don’t see collinson being that shot blocker like alonzo mourning or even brendan haywood.

What happened to the griffin guy that used to play on minnesota or david harrison with indiana. Are they injured or in the dog house on their respective teams.

mykhalc, I think that woodson is nearsided and can’t see the end of the bench where all of his tall players are located. Too bad for salim, he is sitting even further than them.

In all honesty, unless Sekou says something different, these players who woodson refuses to play must really look bad in practice. If not, I don’t understand why he won’t scheme situations for his players to succeed. Zaza looked excited to have Medvenko on the court with him.

Even Josh Smith started to make a comment at half time indicating that they shouldn’t have had so many small players on the court at the end to allow Vince carter to get a dunk at the buzzer. They lobbed a pass up as royal ivey was covering vince carter. Carter tapped the ball to himself and dunked as ivey watched.

Did anyone else see the self pass vince carter made to himself in the 2nd half. He drove down the lane palming the ball while fying in the air. As he met resistance, he threw the ball up in the air toward the rim. He landed hopped back up to catch the air ball and then shot again. I can’t remember if he made the shot, but the refs didn’t call anything.

Now, thats having the respect of the refs. Not like Joe Johnson who is pulled to the floor by boston nachbar and then the refs call double fouls. Joe Johnson gets no respect by the refs.

By mykhalc

February 8, 2007 02:37 AM | Link to this

REESE, i just don’t get WOODSON!! he’s slowly killin’ me man!!! i mean, i would get it if he had at least tried somethings ONCE!!! but as RAY says, he gets that DUMB A$$ look on his face and it’s all downhill from there!!

i really think they are checkin’ out the blog!! ‘cause RIGHT after we start callin’ MARVIN out to hit the boards, he starts doin’ a better job the last couple/few games on the glass!! nice job at the FT line MW!!

it’s pretty obvious that JJ and JS are the only cats that are ready to bring it nite-in, nite-out from a physical level. the rest of these cats bodies just aren’t ready for the pro game! need to hit the weight room in the off-season!!!

By mavid

February 8, 2007 03:18 AM | Link to this

why couldnt BK just have lottery protected our pick this year???

i mean, COME ON

i cant understand those negotiations with phoenix. If BK really was like, we’ll give you 2 first round picks with the 2007 one lottery protected (as opposed to top 3), would phoenix really have been like, F THAT, we’re signing him!

of course not. so frustrating…

By booker magwood

February 8, 2007 05:22 AM | Link to this

luke ridnour=are you kidding? i touught we drafted him and had already had enough of him.

By LekkerInnit

February 8, 2007 08:48 AM | Link to this

True, my trade does favor the Hawks more than the other teams but isn’t that what you want in a trade and isn’t that how you begin trade negotiations. Start greedy and see what you can come up with. Hey, the Hawks have been on the recieving end of too many of these type trades so it’s about time they wised up and get lucky.

The factor that makes the trade workeable is that Gasol wants out and Memphis wants to reduce their wage bill. Ridnour is unhappy in Seattle and they need a big and seem to like athletic bigs.

If the Hawks want to be serious this is the trade they should put on the table and renegotiate the counter offers and see what it is they have to give up make the trade work. If it even means Josh Smith as part of the trade to land Gasol then so be it (you get an All-Star for someone who might potentially be an All-Star).

The point is, Gasol is for the taking, put the trade on the table as is and see what happens. Just don’t let him go to another organization without seeing what it would cost.

By Dee

February 8, 2007 09:43 AM | Link to this

We all need to just be honest,,,WE ARE NOT GOING TO WIN THE CHAMPIONSHIP THIS YEAR!!! So why settle for just making it to the playoffs just so we can get swept in the 1st round. I feel we should not trade this year…we should just continue to play good enough to lose so that we can still be in a great position to get the #1 draft pick and a good PG from Indiana’s pick. I dont mind losing games we could have won. We played HARD last night and i’m glad we came up short. We dont need to win these games but we do did to show that we can if we had all the RIGHT pieces.(center & PG)

By jhan

February 8, 2007 10:10 AM | Link to this

Doc, we needed you at the game last night to converse with the ref’s! Those jokers were worse the crew that did the Lakers game. I don’t blame the loss on the ref’s, but that was some truly horrific officiating!

I can’t believe that Solomon couldn’t get any minutes last night. Woodson needs to wake up. Mikki Moore was killing us inside? Pathetic.

By Harv the Hawk

February 8, 2007 10:26 AM | Link to this

Mavid,

That is the worst trade proposal ever. You must have been part of the Hershel Walker deal to the vikings. Let's just throw in the Joe Johnson and the number one pick to get to lames!

By Anakin Joe

February 8, 2007 11:55 AM | Link to this

jhan, I’m beginning to wonder if Solomon is not earning his time in practice. With Smith in foul trouble, the Nets had their way in the paint. Meanwhile, you have a guy sitting on the bench who can at a minimum challenge shots in Solomon. There has to be some reason why, even with Shelden missing and Wright sitting, Slava got a little time and Solomon received absolutely nothing. But Mikki Moore is every bit as thin as Solomon and I kept waiting for the rookie to get some quality time on the floor.

But then again, somehow, Jeremy Richardson is a better option to be on the floor for the last offensive possession than Salim (or Slava for that matter). If Woody would have preferred that the rookie not be in the position to take that shot, he should have kept him on the bench. It was the right play, to pass to a wide open jump shooter. Stupid criticism of Childress from a really bad game time coach.

A few other random observations. Anyone else notice how the team doesn’t always get Speedy the ball early in fast break situations? I saw both Joshes try to push the ball instead of letting the “cameo appearance” PG handle those duties. Also, when Marvin “took over” the 4th quarter, did anyoe notice that JJ seemed to still want to be “the man” toward the end as opposed to continue to feed the hot guy? I was disappointed that JJ forced that shot (that Kidd tipped in) without finding Marvin.

All of these are coaching concerns, not talent ones. I still hold that in the pathetic Eastern Conference, this team could be somewhere between 7-10 with quality coaching (and relative health).

By HB Ando

February 8, 2007 12:38 PM | Link to this

Joe, you are simply not acknowledging just how atrocious our talent level is, at the five and the one. Mikky Moore abused those guys for the second time in a week. This is a career journeyman, that Billy waived, along with Doleac and Pryzbilla, less than two seasons’ ago, DURING the end of the ‘05 season. Mikky Moore shows you just how wrong Billy was when he picked “ready to play” Shelden. It couldn’t be more obvious. I’d dump any of our big men on a team like NJ, desperate for size, if it gets us another pick.

Do you know that our scoring differential is a half a point, on average, WORSE than the Celtics (-4.4 to .3.9). We’re a lot closer to being the worst team in the league than to being a 7-10.

As I predicted Philly is moving back to the pack in the race for the third slot. With Redd coming back, and Mo healthy, the Bucks will vacate that race in the second half. We won’t be catching the Knicks, which really underscores just how bad we are given the circus New York is.

We’re in an honest-to-got 4 team battle for the 3rd worst record in the league. Seattle gets Lewis back in a week. Philly seems intent on playing hard every night, and is getting nice balance from Miller, Igoudala and Dalembert. Charlotte looks like our primary competition for the slot, and they’ve got the direct tie breaker over us, given our inability to beat them.

This is the only realistic race this team needs to win this season. Our record puts us squarely in the lottery. So even though the third-worst record doesn’t guarantee us to keep the pick, it gives us more ping pong balls than any other lottery slot we could fall to.

We ain’t overcoming any of the current teams at 7 or 8 (defending world champs-Miami). So we’re all in with another lottery-bound jackpot. If I know I’m behind in a big hand, but I’m priced in, I’d like to at least know I have as many outs as possible. The third-worst record gives us the most outs. If we keep the pick, it gives us a chance at a legitimate big man, or an enormous asset to package for a veteran big (we should be able to get someone serious with Marvin and the 3rd pick, maybe even Gasol).

I’m fantanking the rest of the year. There’s just not a logical reason not to.

By mykhalc

February 8, 2007 03:43 PM | Link to this

JOE, DAN, TYGER, WIILIAM, all of you cats had great points and posts today!! NICE!!!

no doubt, SLAVA should see the court before SHELDEN!!

no doubt, SOLOMON should be seein’ more time!!

no doubt, SALIM is the most OVERRATED ‘sniper’ ever!! how did he get that rep anyway??? ARIZONA PLS!!!???

no doubt, ‘not-ready-for-primetime’ WOODSON just sucks as a coach!!!

no doubt, this team STILL DOES NOT KNOW what kinda team it wants to be and sooooo much of that can be attributed to WOODSON’s lack of vision and creativity as a coach!! i can forgive the players that are young and inexperienced and lookin’ to be led!! i can’t forgive BK and WOODSON for not providin’ that leadership. hell, where is STOTTS?? oh yeah, MIL!! gimme him over WOODSON any day!!!!

By mykhalc

February 8, 2007 03:46 PM | Link to this

my bad. meant to post in the new thread!!