AJC > Sports > Hawks > Blog > Archives > 2007 > January > 04 > Entry
DEL.ICIO.USWhat makes a great coach?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
The past few weeks I’ve been embroiled in the great coaching debate with several friends and colleagues (yes, you all are included) from around the globe. And we’ve all agreed to disagree about what onus for a team’’ success rests on the shoulders of the coach (yet another topic that I know has legs around here, since Mike Woodson’s name remains the most tossed about 11 letters in this space).
My argument is that it always depends on the circumstances of a particular situation – Mike Fratello’s is far different from Mike Woodson’s just like Jim Mora’s is far different from Dennis Green’s just like Glenn Mason’s is far different from Lloyd Carr’s (I know, you don’t want me to go there. But there are places some of you go everyday that I don’t hate on, so roll with your boy for a minute).
Fans, media and casual observers like us evaluate coaching performances on a game-by-game basis (basically, what have you done for me lately). Owners, GMs and decision makers clearly judge them differently. So the application of our theories compared to the people pulling the strings on who gets hired, who stays and who gets fired will remain a painfully fruitless exercise.
Follow me now.
My continued complaints (whether you or I think they are valid or not) about what I perceive to be an inept coaching job being turned in by the guy at the helm of my favorite team mean nothing. Same for you and your complaints.
One of my very best friends is a basketball coach. Has done it on the high school, college and professional level (in Europe). He knows his stuff. We’ve always had raging debates about who we both feel are the good and bad coaches, the guys who know their stuff and they guys who know how to pry the very best out of the talented and temperamental individuals they work with.
One of the few things we’ve ever been able to agree upon is that it’s a complex mix of things that factor into a team’s ultimate success – everything from the chemistry between the players to the relative maintenance of health to the lucky bounces that have to bounce a team’s way at the crucial moments. The specifics are endless.
I say it’s more important that a coach hold guys accountable and treat them all the same than it is for him or her to be a fountain of information about the technicalities of a specific game. It always helps to have a technical genius but I’ll take a coach with the proper people and communication skills every day over one without.
But I also say the best coaches are flexible and willing to examine their own theories and beliefs on a continual basis if it means his team responds to what he’s trying to cajole them into doing. I’d take a leader over a dictator. A charismatic manipulator over a bully. A Jim Boeheim type over a Bobby Knight type (and both those guys, for example, are excellent coaches who get great results but by using quite different methods).
Because of the limitations of control that exist for so many coaches at the professional level, some have complete say-so in regard to the talent they have to work with while others do not, the standards change depending on the situation.
Player uprisings are much more likely at the pro level than they are at any other (One of the most egregious mutinies in recent memory remains the New Jersey Nets’ revolt against Byron Scott, who coached them to back-to-back trips to the NBA Finals. And no, they haven’t so much sniffed that rarified are since.)
Again, this is what makes the great coaching debate so intriguing to so many people. Cases can be made for and against keeping or firing just about every coach that isn’t contending and winning titles on a regular basis. And even some of those guys (Larry Brown comes to mind) find ways to get run out of town.
The debate rages on and on and on …
Comments
By Gutz
January 4, 2007 03:27 PM | Link to this
Well its pretty clear that Woody is not that good of a coach. How else do you let your team blow two games with double digit leads in the 4th qtr.? I understand Woody has had to deal with injuries but so has every other team in the NBA. But its clear is in-game coaching is just awful. His substitution patterns are mediocre, offensive gameplans are terrible and predictable for any opposing coach to defend, and he doesn’t lead this team of youngsters in crunch time. It gets more obvious every game we lose. LO Wright should just be traded or something. What a useless bum he has been for us. Can we not make a trade for a LEGIT 2nd scoring option so JJ doesn’t demand a trade here soon? And he will too if something doesn’t change.
By vdunkndunk
January 4, 2007 03:34 PM | Link to this
The one thing you could always say for Woodson was that, at the very least, he got his guys to play hard.
But the team hasn’t been playing hard lately. And sometimes players just need to hear a new voice after losing and losing and losing. Maybe they even need to be taken in an entirely new direction.
I’m not a Woody hater…I actually think he’s been great for the team and has about as well as could be expected.
But I don’t think the Hawks should be allowed to give up this early in the season. If they don’t start playing hard soon and winning some games again, then somethings gotta give…and more often than not it’s the coach, whether that’s fair or not.
By newkid
January 4, 2007 03:34 PM | Link to this
Sekou, with this thread are you perhaps preparing this blog for what you have reason to believe will be a fairly imminent ‘change in colors’ at the head of the Hawks bench? Just asking.
By Mike Price's stripper girlfriend
January 4, 2007 03:36 PM | Link to this
If Xs and Os are there, leadership can take a team to a higher level. That’s what makes a head coach. With just Xs and Os a guy needs to be an assistant.
By vdunkndunk
January 4, 2007 03:37 PM | Link to this
P.S. There is a lot of similarity between the Hawks situation now and the Grizzlies situation when Jerry West took over for BK.
West held onto BK’s players, but he made a coaching change that rendered immediate results. Maybe the same thing is needed here. It’s not unheard for a new coach to take over and reenergize a sagging with a new voice.
By Astro Joe
January 4, 2007 03:53 PM | Link to this
If an assistant coach is supposed to work on elements of the team’s success (and individual player development) and a head coach is supposed to manager the entire team entity to success, then Woody is clearly a very competent assistant coach. Yes, the younger players have developed under his leadership. They appear to have learned most of those fundamental things that will lead to productive careers. And given the age and the number of young guys, that is truly a worthy achievement.
But the team still lacks confidence when they get smacked in the face (one glorious night in Denver excluded) and they have absolutely no identity. We’re a finesse team that doesn’t have many good ball handlers. We’re a defensive team that that doesn’t punish or attack. We’re a young and athletic team that doesn’t push the ball or extend the defense. We’re a team of “energy players” that typically starts each half like we’re in a deep slumber. Bottom line, I have no idea what we are. And that goes directly to the head coach.
But alas, there is no long-term replacement in sight from this side of the ownership divorce. I’d rather have Woody than a suit playing head coach. (Although that suit in Memphis has unleashed the players and is at least playing an exciting brand of ball even though the losing continues).
By Jagstang76
January 4, 2007 04:03 PM | Link to this
Sekou, insightful and interesting as always! But let’s bring this discussion to bear on our coach Mike Woodson. What style would you say he uses? How does he get his players to buy into what he wants them to do? You’ve said in the past that he’s not afraid to jump on them and chew them out. What exactly is he good at? Is he good at the technical aspects of the game or is he a good communicator? And does he effectively use his strengths to help this team succeed?
From what I have observed of him (which could be off base) is that he is more of a tactician as opposed to being a motivator. He probably takes some from Bobby Knight seeing as though he spent time under his wing. He also might take whatever positives came from working with Larry Brown. That could be good or bad. I feel that Woody is not a motivator and has yet to prove to his team that his schemes/tactics work. I get the impression that his players are not confident in his tactics and do not execute well as a result regardless of whether his strategies should work. Sure, injuries have made things more difficult, I will give him grace based on that alone. But when/if we get healthy (where all bodies are accounted for) and we still aren’t playing well, you have to consider whether Woody is coaching successfully or not.
One last thing, the thing that bothers me the most is I can’t figure out what identity Woodson wants to create for his team. Are we a up-tempo team or a half-court/ball-control team? Are we focused on defense or offense? Between the players that BK puts on the roster and the way Woody employs them, we should be able to see some sort of style forming. If anyone sees it and I’m just not, please let me know. I don’t think youth has anything to do with it. This team needs to find it’s strengths and work hard to press their agenda every single game, as opposed to reacting to what the other team is doing. Good teams do this. Maybe that’s why we aren’t very good.
By jacson
January 4, 2007 04:42 PM | Link to this
We have had toooooooo many injuries. It has caused us to lose our momentum. Now the older players cannot get the younger impact players to get their heads up. We are not playing together. We are not playing expecting to win. We are again playing not to lose. It is the coach`s place to fire up the team. Joe cannot carry the whole load. We are not out of it yet, but at this rate. The Hawks are more fun to watch this year than ever before. The future looks good…..Woodson aside.
By Harry Hawk
January 4, 2007 05:09 PM | Link to this
I think Woodson will eventually pay the price for the Hawks’ ineptitude, but it certainly won’t be all his fault. I have a feeling that the Hawks really need a guy with more head coaching experience to shape and mold younger players. Woodson has basically been figuring out how to be a head coach while his players are figuring out how to be NBA players. The fact that Billy Knight didn’t realize this (and then draw from it the belief that the combined growing pains of coach and youngsters might be too great) shows that he’s either not aware enough or he’s completely unrealistic. Honestly, I don’t know whether Mike Woodson could be a good coach or not. The apparent lack of a system on offense or defense doesn’t seem to speak well for him. Lack of experience and, in some cases, talent factors into that, but the coach has to find a way to get guys to run the plays they’re supposed to. Unfortunately, Woody hasn’t done that. It’s hard for me to imagine him being fired soon, though. The ongoing ownership saga will probably keep him in place at least through the end of this season. By then, assuming the team is mostly healthy, we should know whether he can get anything out of this team or not.
By Astro Joe
January 4, 2007 05:11 PM | Link to this
I’m sure you all have heard the story. How when the team at NASA was trying to figure out a way to get a man on the moon that everyone was focused on that singular goal. That if you asked the janitor who mopped the floor late at night what his job was, he’d answer “to get a man on the moon”. Its a classic tale of a team with a definitive identity and goal.
If Sekou were to ask each member of the Atlanta Hawks, “what is the identity of this team?”, how many different answers would you likely get? 2? 3? None?
By they way, someone tell Woody to go and visit Coach Hewitt a few miles away to learn how to install a pressing defense that extends beyond the opposing team’s 3-point line.
By Jay
January 4, 2007 05:14 PM | Link to this
“My argument is that it always depends on the circumstances of a particular situation”
Exactly. Or…with the group of players that he has, what is a reasonable expectation and is he exceeding or falling behind that expectation?
Do I think ANY coach would get much more out of his team? Probably not that much more. This roster is a MESS. We all know who is at fault for it…Knightmare.
Would any coach have done better with so many injuries to key players at different points this season?
Probably not much better.
Easy. Nba teams count on to the “JJ or bust” offense. JJ says he sees 2 to 3 guys on him all the time. It has completely exposed one of our biggest weaknesses…we have only one scorer. So when you shut down that one scorer, what happens? 9-20 happens.
Im not saying Woodson is without blame. I still think he should play Shelden more…for all his warts he still is our best rebounder and he likes to stay down low…something NO ONE ELSE does on this team. I wish we had more plays to get other players involved…maybe we do and I havent recognized them but it seems like we dont try to get other players to score. I wish he didnt play JJ so much…we’re gonna lose anyways, let the other players LEARN how to score without him.
But really…when you have only one scorer, no rebounding, no low-post d, no starter-caliber pgs, an inconsistent center, injuries ALL over the place…what the heck do you expect? Take the best coach in the league (jackson, riley, sloan) and give him this situation. I PROMISE you it wouldnt be that different (if at all) of a record.
I wont call Woody a bad coach until he has a half-decent roster to work with…something Knightmare is incapable of giving him.
By Edgar
January 4, 2007 05:16 PM | Link to this
Woodson: 48-145. He’s almost 100 games under .500 in less than 2 and a half seasons. His players have been throwing in the towel for seven straight games. Are they revolting against Woody? Or is he just such a horrible coach that he can’t get anything else out of them?
Fire Woodson. It’s the only option at this point. He didn’t have much to work with, he tried hard and he failed. Time for a new start. You can’t hold on to a coach just because he works hard and he’s perceived as a nice guy. Results are the bottom line.
And just on the subject of coaches in general, Paul Johnson at Navy is concrete proof of the kind of impact excellent coaching can have. Just read a smidgen about what he’s done at a service academy known for decades of gridiron futility and you will surely be blown away. Second tier D-1 NCAA football and the NBA are completely different beasts, but I think coaching plays perhaps the single biggest role in determining success in nearly all major sports. An excellent coach finds ways to win. Woodson: 48-145. He needs to go back to being an above average assistant coach. He probably longs for it himself.
By Terry Stott's mom
January 4, 2007 05:30 PM | Link to this
Bring back Terry Stott!
By Tyger
January 4, 2007 06:04 PM | Link to this
The Hawks are in dangerous waters. I too have noticed increasingly negative body language from JJ and others.
Even the coach has expressed publicly a lack of “chemistry” with this group. We knew JSmoove, Salim were immature, however, we wrongly assumed Shelden was as solid as the prudential rock. Wrong.
Profound losing will do that. You never want winners to accept losing, but they need to be professionals and accept responsibility as well. We live in an imperfect world, sorry fellas, just a fact.
The truth hurts: Mgt. nor coaches blew repeated double digit leads, missed countless FTs or committed unforced turnover after turnover or jacked up 3s like World B. Free. Look no further than the mirror for your relief. You guys shoot yourselves in the foot!!!
Its even clearer that the coaching isnt in sync with the personnel. Yet, the team has to play and the coach has to find a way to win with the team he has, thats the job, figure it out.
However, night after night, we see the same thing. No adjustments whatsoever, its like Larry Brown with the NYK, he was unhappy so he didnt even try to win.
Now, Isiah has those same kids literally fighting for respect, exact same guys as last year, but now playing with heart and passion. We obviously have a disconnect between the coaches and players b/c apparently ours have quit and do not play with pride or passion.
As I’ve said before, by the end of the 3rd qtr. they “rollover like new meat on a cell block”.
Do we need change? Hell yeah, but it seems the change should first occur within the framework of the present team.
Have we tried all possible combinations, rotations and schemes?
Or have we just thrown our hands in the air and said everybodys hurt and sit there night after night with a stupid frown on our face?
By RA
January 4, 2007 06:11 PM | Link to this
Sad stuff, no doubt about it. But Woodson is not all to blame. I mean, he inherits one of the worst rosters in NBA history and then after three long and painful years of rebuilding, he finally has a team with enough talent to at least compete and then that team is racked with injuries, and though every team has to deal with that I’ve never seen a team as snake bit as this years Atlanta Hawks. As for losing the two games with the double digit leads, well, when you’re only dressing eight guys a night and the other team can keep running fresh bodies out at ya, holding leads gets a little tougher…
By Greg
January 4, 2007 06:20 PM | Link to this
I think that Mike Woodson can be a good coach, but it’s nearly impossible to do, with an inadequate GM. Mike Woodson has done the best with what he has. I think if we fired Woodson after not giving him anything to work with it’s an injustice. His record of 48-145 has more to do with poor personnel choices by Billy Knight than his coaching style. This guy came to this franchise when no one else would. I think we should at least give him better players and see what he could do. I gaurantee that Phil Jackson or Pat Riley could not have done more with the teams Mike Woodson has coached. Thanks a lot Billy you’ve tarnished this guys coaching career before it got started.
By jamal
January 4, 2007 06:23 PM | Link to this
does this look like the face of a guy who likes what’s going on.http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/photo?photoId=1389686&team=atl
By jamal
January 4, 2007 06:34 PM | Link to this
my bad the picture didn’t show up. well go onto espn.com and go to the hawks team page and go to the photos and eventually you will see joe looking p** off.
By 1 + 2 = 4
January 4, 2007 06:52 PM | Link to this
I am tired of people making excuses for Woodson. This team has quit. They had a lot of energy early on; however, once they kept losing those close games, you could literally see the life in the team being sucked out. At some point in time, the coach need to come up with a strategy to help win those close games… Woodson could not or cannot.
I have no idea what type of person Woodson is. Something tells me that he is probably a good guy; however, this good guy is not winning. And when a franchise has been labeled a losing entity, then the longest commitment it can give a guy, to turn it around, is 3-4 years. And if his record is 48-145, then he deserves only 3 years. Time to move on… time to win.
By J. Shuttlesworth
January 4, 2007 08:19 PM | Link to this
About a year ago all the talk was about how Woodson was on the hot seat, and then Knight stepped up to the plate for him and gave a full public vote of confidence.
A year later, and nothing has changed, so I think the heat should be on Knight and the owners for allowing the amateur hour to continue for another year.
Enough of this, I’m going to go read up on how icing works in hockey. I’ll give the Hawks another chance when they get a clue.
By travis
January 4, 2007 08:45 PM | Link to this
i have never seen so many degenerates sit and around a blog about somethin’ as putrid as the HAWKS. i mean this is akin to standin’ around your toilet, analyzin’ the situation. the hawks are crap, the ownership is crap, woodson is crap. flush them and move on. i won’t bash the players though. with a new coach, they would be energized. ask terry in dallas, al in indy, and boris in phoenix.
By JohnGTFan
January 4, 2007 08:49 PM | Link to this
I honestly can’t blame all of this on Woodson, noone can with accuracy. But I can’t see how there would even be any debate as to whether or not he’s a “great coach”. That’s kind of silly. When players quit and play like they have no heart, that goes straight to the coach. The coach cannot make shots, get rebounds, take care of the ball, block shots, etc. But it’s his responsibility to have the guys prepared each night, practice hard, and have them give their all. He obviously does not do that, and I believe his departure is imminent. He’ll be gone before or during All-Star weekend.
By JohnGTFan
January 4, 2007 08:52 PM | Link to this
Jagstang 76 nice post…there is no identity to this team. Honestly, they don’t run either well. And not being able to run an up-tempo game should be impossible at this level. I’ve seen many 2 on 1, 3 on 2, 4 on 2 breaks where the Hawks had to settle for jumpers, or even didn’t convert. At the very least, get to the free throw line! As far as defense, no clue!
By JohnGTFan
January 4, 2007 08:55 PM | Link to this
Travis I see where you’re coming from…but come on. Look at your examples. JT in Dallas is surrounded by incredible talent, Al has O’Neal and Jackson, and Boris…are you serious…look at the talent surrounding that guy. Do you honestly think ATL wouldn’t be flourishing regardless of who the coach was if we had, say….Amare, Nash and company…or how about Dirk, Stackhouse, Howard and company?
By Jim
January 4, 2007 10:15 PM | Link to this
How do a coach who has lost 100 more games than he has won, keep his job? The coach and GM need to be fired!!! The Hawks need proper ownership, no wonder; we can’t get a decent free agent…we need Mr. Blank to buy the Hawks!!!!
By Volman
January 4, 2007 10:22 PM | Link to this
I have looked at most everybody’s arguments, and the one that sticks out to me is that the team has quit. The guys aren’t going out there for games now with the “chip on their shoulder” like they said they had. Where is that chip on the shoulder? Where’s the fire? Intensity?
The guys are playing as if they have nothing to play for.. “oh well, atleast we’re getting paid”. I would do WHATEVER I could to win the ball game.. scratch..fight..claw..JUST WIN!
Now Woody has had a tough hand given to him when he came to Atlanta.. I’d say give him until the end of this year and see if the team gets healthy and what their results are.. I don’t think I could have done better..
He has done a terrible job with subtitutions, though.
Come on Hawks!!
By jd
January 4, 2007 11:20 PM | Link to this
Bad is the only word to say. I for one am sick of hearing this excuse and that excuse. The bottom line is the Hawks appear to suck again. Knight is the problem and Woodson is running a close second. Bad selections in the draft, bad trades, and it looks like Woodson can’t motivate or get the most out of the players. Billy Knight can’t pick his nose. We sit and watch players like Chris Paul, Josh Howard go to other teams. If I were Billy Knight I would be ashamed, if I were Mike Woodson I’d whip Billy’s butt.
By reese
January 5, 2007 01:43 AM | Link to this
1) What if Marvin Williams and Josh Smith (or even Josh Childress) never compliment each other on the court.
2) What if Zaza will never be a dominant defensive player and only a marginal offensive player.
3) What if Speedy and TLue never excel when they play more than 20 minutes.
4) What if Lorenzen Wright will never average 1 block per game, continue to foul a player every 2 minutes and never accomplish anything on offensive or defensive.
* (A) What if the GM knows this and yet tells the coach that he must play with those limitations.*
Well, the coach will not be fired, the team will never win more than they lose, the fans will always say wait until next year’s draft/free agency or until so and so reaches their potential.
* (B) What if the GM knows this and tells the coach to do whatever you can to win.*
1) Well, the coach will put a balanced roster on the floor that has Marvin coming off the bench to substitute for Josh. He will place Solomon Jones in the starting roster. If he can’t get the job done, he places Slava in the starting lineup. If he can’t get the job done, you place Shelden in the starting lineup. If he can’t get the job done, you place pachulia. If none of it works, at least the coach tried with the existing talent and then you go back to the GM and say get better talent.
2) Same as 1, you place a different player next to Zaza that will provide what he cannot. If that doesn’t work, bring zaza off the bench and try a different starting combination.
3) You don’t play speedy or lue more than 20 minutes. You rotate Royal, Joe and Salim into the point guard position.
4) Easy answer, you don’t play Lorenzen Wright until he demonstrates that he can accomplish something. At least Al Harrington would score 20pts every once in awhile while not playing any defense. Neither Lorenzen nor harrington compliment Josh, Marvin or Zaza. The ultimate question is when will Woodson acknowledge this fact and play someone who does.
If GM Scenario (A) is in place, then we are seeing that now and might as well just shut up and wait for the ownership mess to clear up.
If GM Scenario (B) is in place, then Woodson better start changing his starting rotation and start thinking about a more balanced roster.
He better start developing his younger talent (Solomon Jones) over throwing a veteran out there because he runs his mouth and is overpaid (Lorenzon Wright).
He better start limiting the play of his aging and injury prone point guards and start using other guards when Lue or Speedy are injured.
Most importantly, Stop complaining about injuries, stop complaining about body language, stop complaining that we are so young, stop playing players 40 minutes and saying they were tired and stop saying that we are undersized when you have taller players that you won’t put on the floor together.
By kaiser
January 5, 2007 04:03 AM | Link to this
Dijon Thompson is the future.
By kaiser
January 5, 2007 04:14 AM | Link to this
Sorry when I wrote Dijon Thompson, I meant Stanislav “Slava” Medvedenko.
By Willie Coyote
January 5, 2007 08:19 AM | Link to this
One thing that I’ve noticed about teams that win consistently over the span of years is stability in some form. Usually that stability is at the coaching level. If you do your due dilligence and hire a good one then I think it’s better to ride that out and success will come provided you give that coach enough to work with. We are far too impatient to fire someone when things don’t go the way we want them to. If the Hawks turn it around and go to the playoffs this year, people will be praising Woodson whether they win the title or not. If the Hawks were going to the playoffs every year and were title contenders but did not win it, people would be calling for him to be fired with the same passion that you hear now on this blog.
I’m not entirely sold on him as the head coach myself. I think he is a great coach but is he haed coaching material (echoing what Astro Joe has said time and time again). I do know that he had this team competing on a nightly basis the second half of last year. This year that hasn’t happened. I don’t think anything’s changed about him. These struggles have more to do with a young, mentally weak team that is undermanned and is starting to feel sorry for themselves (with all the injuries) and that is why they haven’t been able to hold their own during this bad skid. That can only be corrected with maturity of the players and I’m not sure if a coaching change will solve that.
I would like to see Woodson let these boys run more (with their current lack of depth that may be hard but this half court stuff isn’t exactly working for them).
By Samuel
January 5, 2007 09:59 AM | Link to this
As a coach myself, I definately don’t place all of the blame on Woody. You can’t win if you don’t have the horses, period. You can draw up all the X’s and O’s you want but the bottom line is we are outmanned every single night and that’s a very helpless feeling If you’ve ever been a coach. Some of you may want to try it sometime. Get your son, daughter or grand’s Rec team and get drubbed a couple of times and you’ll see why Woody sports that look.
I believe this whole organization is going about it the wrong way. Their marketing plan is basically get: no frills, boring players with no personality and a boring GM and a boring coach. On top of that they(players) are not that good.
They are trying to Market a brady bunch mentality in Atlanta. It won’t work. At least the Falcons have Personalities on the field and thus have a good exciting product, Win or Lose. People enjoy watching the Falcons.
Injuries have definately played a big part in our demise but I believe ultimately if would have come to this eventually anyways. We just don’t have the horses.
By jhan
January 5, 2007 10:22 AM | Link to this
After looking at this roster it appears that Knight is trying to develop the best 2nd unit in basketball. Speedy, Childress, ZaZa, Sheldon & Jones would definitely make the best 2nd team in the NBA. The only problem with this is that they are counted on to be 1st string.
I don’t believe that Woodson is that good of a coach, but a lot of the blame has to fall on the GM.
By honest_abe
January 5, 2007 10:34 AM | Link to this
yup the falcons having personalities = exciting product… ridiculous hogwash as usual… 3 points to carolina at home was thrilling. as was the 30-14 drubbing at the hands of the lions. no you must mean that nail biter of a game against cleveland in which they lost 17-13. yup… interesting personalities make for one helluva exciting product. i can’t even heh that one… that just dumb.
the bottom line is woody i feel was brought in here because he was viewed as one of the top assistants in the league. he is a larry brown protege and he played a major part in the championship detroit team. it’s evident that he is a rah rah guy and he has gotten this team to play hard fairly consistently which is no small feat in today’s world of million dollar spoiled athletes. but when you lose game after game… some of which can be attributed to poor in game management, as well as retarded substitutions and lack of creative plays.. young players start tuning everyone out, including the head coach. why listen to the rants and preachings of a leader when the results are futile. i think woody is a tremendous disciplinarian as well as mentor, developer of young talent. but he isn’t a great, or even good head coach. in fact to put it bluntly he’s awful. he needs to go ASAP! the hawks need a coach that isn’t adverse to change … with the personnel this team has they need a coach that will let them run and at least be something fun to watch.
we can make all the excuses we want. but in the end it’s all moot.. it’s just like doc and aj say follow the money!
By The Flash
January 5, 2007 11:12 AM | Link to this
Coaches are as good as their offensive concepts and their ability to facilitate the development of players who come to understand those concepts. Obtuse. Perhaps. But, what inspires people in this game is the ability to come together in esthetically pleasing ways to score the ball. That’s the list.
Now, every now and then a “defense” first coach will succeed, but they are quite rare and their teams generally boring, imo.
Teams who really “get” the great offensive concepts that their coaches embrace often play great defense. Why? Great offensive teams come to understand the game on a deep level, and those insights inform how they execute on defense as well.
Starting from the defensive side first rarely can achieve the same results.
We are in dangerous waters here, as concerns JJ. The Spirit need to be very keen in their assessment of things. It seems that the only real short-term alternative to Woody is Larry Drew. I would make a move only if I thought that it would improve the quality of offensive flow, which is something that, in mid stream, is very difficult to do. If the take is that JJ would prefer taking a chance (no, you definitely cannot ask him; he is carrying enough on his shoulders) on making that change, then maybe you go for it.
Otherwise, all I can say is that they are fighting to control a team that they oh so cannot afford, let’s see em run it. Frankly, at this point, better them than me.
By newkid
January 5, 2007 11:16 AM | Link to this
Sekou, don’t fall for some of this nonsense you’re getting from the owners, coaches, and players. Don’t go for the head fake my man. Gearon and Woody are rolling out this mess about the lack of winning being attributable to not having enough healthy - and integral - bodies since mid-November, and you and the AJC appear to eat it up (and print it). Sure injuries have taken a toll, but where are the questions (from you) - and answers (from them) - regarding effort, or the lack thereof? For crying out loud man, no one with even a modest amount of intelligence (I’m in this camp for sure) expects to win ALL contests, especially with injuries. On the contrary, what I consistently here on this blog and elsewhere are protestations about lack of effort and poor or non-existent coaching. When we shove our debit cards under the ticket window - at some $60 a pop - to acquire game tickets, we’re not adamant about getting a win every time we rest our tushes in a seat at Philips. But what we are adamant about is a consistent demonstration of REAL effort by the players and real in-game coaching by Woody and his crowd.
Please, rewind those interviews with Gearon, Woody, et al and ask about lack of effort and absence of coaching. I may be the exception, but my $60 comes from fairly hard work. You’ve not gotta be 15 strong and fully healthy to consistently work your butt off while on the court to give us $60 bucks (each) worth of effort and commitment to the game. Come back to the readers with a report on how they justify the lack of effort and inept coaching.
I’ll say again what I’ve long said. Give me the consistent effort and I’ll take the wins when they come and continue to shove my debit card under the ticket window. Without the effort, I’ll keep debit card in my wallet and retire to my study with a good book.
By Ryder
January 5, 2007 11:38 AM | Link to this
Billy Knight & Mike Woodson :”when keeping it real goes wrong”!
By gb
January 5, 2007 11:43 AM | Link to this
newkid
i think when you talk lack of effort, you have to start with the atlanta 10 stooges. knightmare is next. woodbrain has the effort but not the abilty. if the owners and gm give no effort to sign good players, the lack of effort will trickle down the ladder to the players. if the front office don’t care the players will give up.
By Chris D' (formerly Chris)
January 5, 2007 12:09 PM | Link to this
This year and lack of quality product really isn’t surprising me. I am not sure who I have less respect for The Hawks organization or the folks in the off season drinking the “Kool Aid” thinking that the corner had been turned.
The Hawks corporate line now to improve in the second half of the season is bring in a few 10 day contract guys to see if we can shake things up. Mike Woodson do me a favor, just shut the “F__K UP”.
After watching Woodson leave Frieje out on one on one isolation with Lebron James for 3 straight possessions at the end of a game my belief was firmly cemented that you are a worthless piece of “S__T”.
Billy Knight, everyone in the league knows you are a crap GM. It is not easy to have a team with 4 lottery picks in your rotation that sucks this bad, but you were able to do it. Congratulations….
By Samuel
January 5, 2007 01:18 PM | Link to this
Abe,
The Falcons are selling out every game my friend and that many more in the parking lot. Why do you think that’s so.
By the way have you ever coached or played any sport?
Flash, I agree that offensive concepts can definately help but the bottom line is how many players do you have that can execute those concepts. Most of the great teams i’ve seen really use defense to create their offense. But you’re right. It’s all about outscoring the opponent. Period. We don’t have enough players to make that happen.
Sure, it’s about selling your concept as a coach too. I just don’t see Ga State beating UN more than once or twice out of a hundred no matter what concept Lefty(oh yea he’s gone) or anyone else employs.
By Clyde
January 5, 2007 01:19 PM | Link to this
FIRE BILLY AND WOODY
By doc
January 5, 2007 01:52 PM | Link to this
well samuel you came close to saying it was ownership’s issue to get a better product by either firing the gm or telling him to get a better product and spend more money as you very adroitly pointed out the difficulties coaching. i’ve done it and when you are outmanned physically and intellengently by being young wooden or auerbach couldnt make that significant a difference much less i, heh heh, though we have many on this blog capable, just read on. it is a complex issue and if it becomes mutany then woody goes. it was funny that as the press talks about how immature marvin is and has had a run in with his coach and is brought up here by some that young player is the one who takes the microphone and steps out onto the court and becomes the spokesman for the organization as he wishes all a happy holiday in front of 10000 people. some of the stuff that comes out is rediculous that tries to dismerit the players and the coaches relationship and until there is a frank fallout then we stay the course.
maybe next up will be a collection of sekou’s thoughts about what it takes to be a winning organization from the owners.
again i am very frustrated but to look around the league and compare what happens when there are injuries and throw in fatigue, yes there are blowouts this time of the season with better teams and with better coaches presumedly (riley) than the hawks being on the losing end of them. here is to praying that the team buffed back up in the past few days to win tonight and lue gets back on the court to work his magic that he found at the beginning of this season; that is the real reason this team performed so well during the on slaught of inluries. he truly was playing like he had come from another planet.
samuel, the falcons sucked this year and last with all that “exciting” talent. dont fool yourself but it was the anticipation of winning that put people in the seats and mr blank knows to keep them in the seats there has to ultimately be a better product defined as wins not “personalities” or he wouldnt have taken charge and made a change.the falcons have commited ownership, again the argument from my end is it is the ownership with the hawks that slows down this organization. so sekou breakout the next edition with a story on owners who can take it to the next level ala mark cuban or the family in sacramento.
By honest_abe
January 5, 2007 01:54 PM | Link to this
commish: it’s called hype! the falcons had a lot of hype coming into the season but those players with “personalities” played like crap and were not exciting to say the least. if you didn’t notice there more than plenty of empty seats at the dome. how many falcon games did YOU attend this season?
as for my coaching experience. i dont’ see how that is relevant. but no i’m sorry i dont’ have any pee wee league coaching experience like yourself. (i’m sorry maybe you have some senior level high school coaching experience) i wouldn’t want to minimize that. lol
oh yes and before i forget.. you’re retarded comparison between unc and ga state. hmmm let’s see last time i checked george mason made it to the final four. and how many mid majors upset big time programs last year? coaching can turn a very avg team in a highly competitive one .. .while a bad coach, well he pretty much doesn nothing.
By g man
January 5, 2007 02:10 PM | Link to this
Players win games and coach’s loses games. We have no players to win the game. No one can win with all the injuries. The hawks have to have all 13 or 14 guys in order to even compete. We only have 9 guys dressing out and 6 of those guys are not even starters. Tell me who can win with the problems and talent that we have. A lot of you guys know nothing thats why you are on this blog. I am a coach and you need your key players to play. You cant have a core group of 4 0r 5 players and only 1 or 2 play at a time. All of you that are hating on the Hawks and the coach can go suck an egg. GO Hawks.
By honest_abe
January 5, 2007 02:22 PM | Link to this
i’m glad and privileged to blog with such prominent coaches/experts. i thank you from the bottom of my heart for enlightening me about the game of basketball..
cheers!
By newkid
January 5, 2007 02:46 PM | Link to this
Isn’t it amazing how quickly expressing one’s opinion becomes ‘throwing the team under the bus’ or ‘hating on the Hawks’ even when the one initiating the expression is quite loyal (with his cash) in support of the team? My oh my, how we so unnecessarily appear to be threatened by those who are different or have some independence of thought. I most deeply apologize for offending, and now will crawl back into my dungeon.
By Keith_PTC
January 5, 2007 02:47 PM | Link to this
How is it possible to truly gauage the coaching ability of Mike Woodson? With the dearth of talent current or near future I just am unable to ascertain his coaching acumen. When you look at what should consitute the core of the Hawks future it is very troubling. Marvin Williams appears to me to not have the necessary athletic quickness and strength to ever develop into an elite player as would be expected of a number 2. Sheldon Williams appears to have the ability to possibly develop into a workman like 3/4. He neither has the quickness, handle or shooting to be a 3 or the height, strength and jumping to be a 4. Josh Childress may be an intelligent young man but as a basketball player he makes horrible decisions as the clock runs down. He neither has the handle or outside shooting of a 2 nor the strength of a 3. Much more would be expected of a number 7 pick. Josh Smith has the most athletic ability strength and jumping. But he appears to not have the lateral movement or handling to be a 3 or bulk to be a 4.
The guards other than Joe Johnson are either journeyman level or worse, the centers are poor at best. This means the team has little or no depth and as is obvious other than Joe Johnson no team member can get his own shot or create shots for others. This leaves Mike Woodson with very few good choices his guards tend to either be short, slow and incapable of guarding anyone with poor handle unable to drive and dish. His forwards tend to either to short and slow or to weak and skilled to handle their positions. The center position in Atlanta is horrible with slow, poorly skilled players. I wish Woodson had even average talent so that I could make a valid judgement on his coaching skills. I suspect he is not very good but given his options with players and skills there are no good choices.
By sam
January 5, 2007 03:07 PM | Link to this
fire coach and gm, move the team up to Syracuse and restart the old Syracuse Nationals. Is Dolph Shayes still alive? Maybe he can coach and his boy Danny can GM.
By Samuel
January 5, 2007 03:08 PM | Link to this
Abe,
You may pull an upset here and there but over 82 games, that stuff will even out.
I’m not saying i’m no great basketball mind but I do have experience. Yes, I started in Pee Wee as you call it and now High School. My goal is to go all the way up the ladder. I tell you what. I aint scared to try it. All I know is that until you walk in them shoes, you are really just blowing smoke out yo a—. How can you critique something you know nothing about?
Yea Abe, the Pee Wee league’s need plenty of volunteers. Give it a try, it’ll be an humbeling experience my friend.
Joe, I do agree that salesmanship is very important in coaching. If they by in they’ll usually make it work. Problem usually comes when they run into better talent and despite running that plan to the teeth, they still get handled soundly. I said at the beginning of the year that if the Hawks could keep up their defensive pressure and aggressiveness they would beat a lot of teams. For whatever reason, that philosophy was abandoned(probably due to fatigue and injuries) and consequently we are where we are.
We just don’t have enough scorers to beat people on the offensive end.
Doc, they Falcons didn’t exactly suck. They just fell below expectations. Those expectations only came about recently if i’m correct. Let’s be real here. We are talking about expectations of reaching the Super Bowl compared to just rising above the bottom of the barrel.
Hey, what about them Knicks!
By Clyde
January 5, 2007 03:11 PM | Link to this
FIRE BILLY AND WOODY T-SHIRTS ARE STILL AVAILABLE. I WILL BE AT THE GAME NEXT FRIDAY TO SHOW THEM OFF.
FIRE BILLY AND WOODY
By sam
January 5, 2007 03:17 PM | Link to this
hey samuel, if the basketball career doesnt work out, you may have a future as an english teacher here in georgia.
By Samuel
January 5, 2007 03:24 PM | Link to this
Was that a knock on my grammer, my spelling or both?
By sam
January 5, 2007 03:57 PM | Link to this
both
By doc
January 5, 2007 04:18 PM | Link to this
samuel, it is two years running that the falcons didnt even smell the playoffs much less the expectation of the super bowl. lets be real and start there and not getting into the playoffs i.e. with a winning record which also is the measure that blank gave his charge about mid november. dont re-write history to serve your point.
if your beloved hawks and mine had spent to the max on par with other teams at about 65-70 mil this year, as i restate there is no such thing as a cap as it only serves the teams or owners who continue along their poverty lines of supporting its team AND FAN BASE, you would be hollering that the hawks sucked if they couldnt even reach .500 in a very sorry division or conference. funny how the eastern conference of the nba and the nfc and south division of the nfl are similar. winning only one half the games got you into the playoffs this year for the “worthy” giants. the falcons sucked man, fell below even the expectations of playoffs this year and blank made some changes to get his “exciting personalities” a coach who can get them focused enough to win. i am surprised at your nonchalance and offering a pass on that one and dont understand it unless it is to support your own thesis of the importanced of “personalities” to get you a sub-par season. if that is your measure it didnt add up for blank and fortunately he has made folks accountable which is what is screamed for here by you even, among others.
second, gave you and your knicks a little cred a week ago but no response on your part. now i guess i can assume you missed it bro. peace.
By Samuel
January 5, 2007 05:23 PM | Link to this
Doc,
I didn’t necessarily give anyone a free pass. I just know that I would rather have and exciting atmosphere and lose than be boring and lose. My basketball team volunteered and worked the concessions at the Falcons games this year. I was at nearly every home game and eventhough they lost, the Fans still had a blast. I expect that they will be back in full force next year as long as MV is in town. Win or lose.
I think most people expect the Falcons to rebound. No one expects the Hawks to do anything but lose and that they do very well.
I believe I did catch your props to them Knicks. I was just too busy to respond. Basketball up the Ying Yang the last few weeks.
By doc
January 5, 2007 05:37 PM | Link to this
keep it in the road with your boys, never got an update on how you coached em up during the holiday tourny, care to bring us up to date?
btw had fun with my girls at the game thanks to some tix from jhan that he let me buy. got to see labron up close and personal, even had cousins call on the cell to say they could see us on the tube and to wave at them. however, until bucks are spent that will be all that can be said as the victories wont come without max health ane effort.
honestly, all this talk about geting someone in the draft wont do me any good next year or the next three even if we were to get oden or noah. they wont be ready for prime time and therefore it is a moot point. get me some owners that will pony up 20 to 25 mil more to the payroll and get me a big time point and a big time big to go with what we have and we will talk more about the hawks winning and less about having personality. even with that extra spending it would put the team at “only” mid teir for total dollars spent at around 75 to 80 mil.
By Samuel
January 5, 2007 06:00 PM | Link to this
We did OK. We played some really good teams. It should help us come playoff time.Our team is still trying to find our leader. They’ve been playing the last few years with a McDonalds All American and all of a sudden, somebody else has got to step up. I think we may have finally found one.
We lost a starter for 4 weeks and Monday we find out who will be academically eligible come Monday. That’s always fun.