Hawks

By A Thinking Fan

August 21, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

Go JJ GO!!!

By bill

August 21, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

Sekou — The “Endless Summer” indeed — right on target. Got my weekly call from Hawks ticket office today about why I haven’t laid my cash down for season tickets yet, and got usual song & dance about how Speedy & LW will lead us to the playoffs, as well as the Philips game experience…

I do look forward to reading your article/interview/Q&A with BK after the Harrington saga ends…can’t wait to see that spin (from the Spirit side)!

By The Man

August 21, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Sekou Smith likes men.

By Steve B.

August 21, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

I don’t care how long the Al sogga continues as long as we get some one who can help us in return or an unprotected pick from a team on the bubble. I know it’s fustrating for Al, but in the end it’s a buisness and Al’s going to be millions of dollars richer. The Hawks needs lie in only two area’s Point and Center so a deal done without one of those in return or that 1rst round pick wouldn’t be the one I made.

By Patrick

August 21, 2006 05:18 PM | Link to this

Sekou, I have a question. Why don’t we just resign him? It makes a whole bunch more sense than trading a young, experienced power forward. The only PF we have on the roster is Shelden Williams.

By Sekou Smith

August 21, 2006 05:19 PM | Link to this

The six-year Hawks-Pacers deal as it was discussed in the past, here and everywhere else, remains a corpse. But the possiblity of the Hawks and Pacers striking another deal (say one that’s along the lines of the four years the Pacers desire) is alive and kicking. Through all of this the Pacers have remained the one team that could offer the Hawks the one thing they’ve desired from the start - no crusty contracts to take back for Harrington. So we’ll see if this is our week to finally get some closure here.

By Sekou Smith

August 21, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

Patrick,

I thought the same way early on in this process. But the franchise has drafted young players at the same position as Al the past three drafts. So they’re all younger and a whole lot cheaper than he is (Al’s hunting for a $9-10 mil per year deal and Josh, Marvin and Shelden won’t make that combined this season), and that’s huge. What will be interesting is seeing how the Hawks replace the 18 points and seven rebounds per night that Al gave them. I know everyone thinks it’ll happen with ease but I’m going to be interested to see who steps up.

By mountain_jim

August 21, 2006 05:31 PM | Link to this

Nice new blog - and still a small download…

I have burnt out on Indy and hope they don’t get Al anyways…

I now hope for a GS or LA deal (still can’t stop thinking about Bynum) that includes a 2007 first.

After all, it’s not my pocket the salary coming back comes out of - I am again hoping the Hawks get an asset that helps this year and comes with a pick.

By HB Ando

August 21, 2006 05:41 PM | Link to this

This is a response to MM, regarding his projected trade bounty of Smith, Pietrus, a #1 and $3 million: that seems highly unlikely, and fairly illogical, Mike. That’s a ton more than we could extract for Harrington from Indy, and they didn’t close the deal. Now, we’re supposed to get two quality players, a first and cash? Who do you think we are, Phoenix? Billy Knight gives up those kinds of assets, he doesn’t get them. At this stage, if we could get Smith and a first, I’d be surprised. Not because that’s fair compensation, but because I just don’t have much faith in the tandem of Billy and the Spirit, to optimize Al’s value. Pietrus can flat out play. And if GS can dump Dunleavy’s contract on his Dad, over in LA, Pietrus will be the starting 3 in GS next season.

We need O’Bryant, Biedrens or Bynum, and a first to replace the gift Billy bestowed upon Phoenix. If we take Smith, we don’t have much need to sign Wright, because we’ll have a glut of second-tier big men, with Shelden, Zaza, Smith and Wright. Smith and Wright is an either/or as far as I’m concerned. While I don’t expect Billy to pull off obtaining one of these young, “upside” big men, I don’t think that should preclude any of us from wanting him to pull off a deal that would make us proud.

Walsh’s comments on the Al negotiations, their status, and the role their owners played in the situation only underscore just how little fact we’re dealing with when we read “what’s happening”. He pretty much called all reports speculation. My take on the whole transaction is that Al told Billy to make a deal happen with Indy, because that’s where he wanted to play. To the extent that Al made it clear that he wanted to return there, Billy’s leverage, given up when he failed to trade Al prior to the trade deadline, was progressively diminished. Indy knew Al was intent on heading their way, so why give Atlanta much of anything. Now Indy’s bluff has been called, and maybe, Al has decided he can play for a number of teams. Hopefully, real competition for his services will net him the contract he desires, and will see us obtain something of value and substance in return. I’m not too concerned about the financially timid Spirit tying up cash in bad contracts. I am concerned about them leaving the roster barren in an effort to stem their losses. Taking on Smith shouldn’t be financially prohibitive. He brings immeidiate depth to the front line, and is a better defender than Wright, as well as a better shooter. He can be traded during the season, possibly even for a first, if a team is on the threshold of the playoffs and needs a solid contributor in the paint.

As with the discussion regarding Nene, re-signing Smith or letting him walk are not the only two ways to maximize his potential value to the franchise. His skill level and expiring contract could prove very valuable come next February.

It’s still kind of mind-boggling that these discussions take so long to unfold. You would think someone, whether it’s Billy or Tellum, would be working the conference calls full-time for two days, to work out a viable transaction and get the deal closed. Man does it take a lot of effort to come here and split hairs during the summer. I am really, truly tired of talking about the same things.

By Samuel

August 21, 2006 06:13 PM | Link to this

Me too Ando,

Hey lets talk about 2013 when that kid from Saudi becomes eligible. 6’8’, 256lbs. at age 13. WOW!! Cuz, Don’t be surprised if they give JJ the shaft. Nobody respects the Hawks, you know that. Personally, I would rather JJ get the rest anyway. With all the minutes he plays during the season, all that travel is bound to catch with him and God forbid he should get hurt. We’ll bust 13 wins wide open. He’s got nothing to prove. We know he’s a stud.

Shane “freekin” Battier. Give me a break.

By Astro Joe

August 21, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this

Practically speaking, if this Al thing doesn’t get resolved until 10/1, what’s the big deal? Let’s face it, we’re most likely going to acquire a player who will be somewhere between number 8-10 in our rotation. There is no sense of urgency to trade for a guy like Smith. He’s a nice player, and we need a veteran big, but its not like 5,000 fans flock to the arena to purchase season tickets if that deal gets done. It is more important for other teams to acquire Al, who will likely be nothing less than a number 3 scoring option. We’re impatient because we’re fans. But we could very well sit back and let the offers file in.

I’d gladly take Smith and Taft. Pietrus might eventually be a player, but I’d rather stock pile big men as projects than more wing players. And I distinctly remember how active Taft was in the first game last season.

Ando, I can’t believe your statement about the Spirit leaving the roster barren. Do the math, buddy, even with Smith’s $6M deal, this ownership group is NOT increasing salaries year-over-year. And why should they? I know I wouldn’t invest in a new deck, finished basement, stainless appliances, etc. if I thought the court might be giving the house to my wife in a divorce settlement. Yes, the roster is barren. You get what you pay for. And we’re paying for a 36 win team. Duh!

By DekaturKing

August 21, 2006 09:45 PM | Link to this

I’m tired of this mess. Lets just make a move already!!!!!!!! Go Hawks…

By michael m.

August 21, 2006 09:59 PM | Link to this

ando, i agree bk might not be able to pull it off. aside from the deal that brought al here, his trades have been far from spectacular. i also would much prefer bynum, o’bryant or biedrens but they all appear to be off limits at this point. i am all for trying to extract those bigs, but if it’s gonna take a 9mm and suge knight to do, i’d prefer to look at other options. first off, golden state and denver make out great in the trade. replacing dunleavy with harrington would be a coup for mullin, denver would love to put maggette at the 2 and smith doesn’t really fit a need for them. i have to disagree with your thought that pietrus would then start for the warriors. harrington would start at the 3 with murphy at the 4. from what i have read, pietrus isn’t really in their future plans and they have not shied away from the idea of adding him to one of their overpaid caucasian forwards in trade. that said, it would not surprise me if they tried to insist on moving zarko cabarkapa instead of pietrus. remember, gs has a lot of youth on that roster and they are not going to be able to keep them all… the clips would only be doing this because maggette doesn’t want to be their 6th man and uniting dunleavy sr. and jr. would only help junior’s career.

i also disagree with your take about reneging on the zen wright deal. first off, that’s not the kind of rep bk needs. if they have committed to each other, you don’t back out. aside from that, i still would want wright. he is going to play mostly center for us. joe smith is another power forward who can contribute a little something but he is nothing more than a role player at this point. and he would not be long for the hawks anyway. perhaps he would last the year, but it is just as likely he would be pawned off if we can get a little something back. a very late first round pick would do the trick, though i am not sure any team would give even that for him. it will depend on injuries and depth of the various contenders towards the trading deadline. and look, if it was joe smith alone, i don’t even think the hawks would be willing to do the sign and trade. and i cannot blame them. why pay a guy $8 mill for the year when he is not going to be part of your future. it’s not the players that we are after in this trade scenario, it is primarily the draft pick. as far as our team being barren, i don’t think so. we are deeper than we have been in a while. i am not saying we don’t still have room for improvement, but we need to see how the current hawks players interact on the floor before deciding their fates. even pietrus (whose talent level seems debatable depending on who you ask) doesn’t fit a need for us. i would like to see how he contributes in camp and whatnot, but i am very willing to use him in a deal later this year as well. because unless we get a bynum or one of the two gs bigs, it’s not gonna be the player that is the focal point of the deal for us.

regarding your comments about indy and the comments walsh made, i believe walsh is just covering indy’s butt regarding their change of heart, which i think is what it was. i think the fact wilcox and gooden both signed for three years at around $8 million per changed the landscape from nene money to something much more reasonable. both those guys got squeezed and the simon bros. think they can do the same here. al seemed all set and happy to go to indy, he said on the radio they were just waiting for billy to settle on what he wanted. are you telling me there was never any discussion about what he was going to get paid? i don’t think so. and so by the time bk and his onetime mentor walsh finished their staredown, the indy owners weren’t as willing to dig down deep into their checkbook. also, i don’t even think it was al saying he only wanted to go to indy way back when. he even laid out golden state as an equally viable option; i think along with another team or two. but it became quickly apparent that bk and the other gm’s were not seeing eye to eye so i believe al just realized at the time that no other team was going to be able to get him. indy became the clear frontrunner and so he went with that. looking at his statement going back to the middle of last season, al harrington seemed inclined to play for any team that was ready to pay him the hefty salary he was seeking. this thing with indy doesn’t go on that long without any preliminary contract discussion of financial compensation. walsh knows this whole thing makes indy look bad and is just doing damage control, as he should.

By michael m.

August 21, 2006 10:23 PM | Link to this

wow, now it looks like indiana is gonna get al at their price. 4 years/35.3 mill with the 4th year being at al’s option. our owners really screwed this up by making it so obvious they were not willing to take back players. even if that was the case, they should have handled it better. is there any way to enroll bk and our owners in a business economics class at the local community college? they have no understanding of what the word LEVERAGE means, or how to use it. it’s pathetic, really.

By Wild Pacer fan

August 21, 2006 10:40 PM | Link to this

michael m, I agree. By not be willing to take on contracts, even for 1 year, seemed to make the Al to Indy deal, the most likely.

If this is true I am very happy, we got the best player available and keep the term reasonable.

Hopefully this is a good sign that the owners are getting a little smarter and not giving such long term deals. remember we had austin c for 49/7. Don’t feel bad for Al, I don’t think he will have a car payment.

By michael m.

August 21, 2006 10:42 PM | Link to this

since the warriors had already stated they were willing to pay al 6 years/$66 mil, al being willing to accept indiana’s lowball offer of 4 years/$35 mil tells us one thing. OUR OWNERS WERE NOT WILLING TO TAKE BACK ANY PLAYERS, EVEN EXPIRING CONTRACTS. arn must have found this out and basically left harrington with the option of taking indy’s offer or signing with someone for the midlevel exception. These guys are like having the terrible old atlanta falcons owners again. Is there any way to force the current owners and belkin to sell the team to someone else and then split up the proceeds. we are stuck between a rock and a hard place. these owners cannot defend their position because they put themselves here by hiring attorneys who basically screwed the pooch. It is not eve BK’s fault. i have to give walsh credit for seeing through any fronts we tried to put up. al probably isn’t going to be real happy with indy management for leveraging him like this, but it’s the best offer he could get at present. i guess business is business. it’s unfortunate the hawks players and fans are left with this debacle.

By michael m.

August 21, 2006 10:44 PM | Link to this

any way to force the atlanta spirit to change their company name to the ATLANTA SCROOGES.

By michaelm.

August 21, 2006 11:27 PM | Link to this

Sekou, do you have any idea what the terms of the pick are? one would hope that our dropping the $3 million cash demand was a tradeoff for the pick possibly coming in 2007, though obviously it will have some sort of protection since it’s being called a “future” pick. does 2007 lotto protected or 2008 unprotected sound about right to you? would love to hear what you have heard, though obviously nothing is final. but what’s the word around the campfire, sekou?

By Sekou K. Smith

August 22, 2006 12:05 AM | Link to this

Lottery protected.

By Sekou K. Smith

August 22, 2006 12:07 AM | Link to this

But the Pacers made the playoffs the year of the brawl, so I wouldn’t get too excited about getting a lottery pick anytime soon. Check the past five drafts and see where the Pacers have picked and that’s basically what you’re getting.

By ABL

August 22, 2006 12:25 AM | Link to this

It doesn’t matter what team Al Harrington role plays for next year, Joe Johnson may well be nice like Bo Bice but the Hawks are going 21-61. Check out the ABL.

By ray

August 22, 2006 12:28 AM | Link to this

This is ridiculous. On again, off again, on again, off again. I would like to say that I’m just going to sit here and not get jerked in every which direction by any rumors or reports of a deal, but I almost can’t help it. With this latest report, things are looking pretty bleak. If a draft pick is all we get from this trade, the owners really stink. I just know it’s them. Although I am tired of hearing it, no doubt some people will once again tie this one to BK. Not that it matters, a result is a result. I should have known better than to get my hopes up, but I did anyway. Oh well, a deal’s not a deal until the ink is on the paper. Guess we’ll see what happens.

By the way, AJ and I think it was Newkid. Very interesting info you posted at the end on the last blog. I wouldn’t be surprised if our owners were even more involved to the point of micromanagement. Gee whiz, that kinda makes many arguments circular, ya know? I seem to remember several people saying that it’s all about the money (or lack thereof) anyway.

By Samuel

August 22, 2006 06:45 AM | Link to this

Guys,

I know i’m the only one up this time of day but I’m giving the scouting report on Team USA. They don’t look too dominating right now. The first team is getting “took” by a weak Slovo team. I’m sure the dept will ultimately wear them down but this team is definately no lock to win the World Championship and definately no “Dream Team”.

They might as well play zone cause they can’t stop anybody from going to the hoop. The no handchecking rule is killing them. Gotta go to work now, or maybe I call in sick. On the AL trade, “no comment”.

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this

With reports that Indy is close to securing Al once he takes less years, it’s now clear The Atlanta Spirit would rather not have to pay the salary for any potential assets that could help this year coming back from Al, so fielding a winning team takes a back seat to saving dollars.

There was talent in these discussions that would have really helped, if they willing to take back the salary.

Since they may lose the team, cheaping out is understandable, but it’s also understandable that some of us fans think perhaps they deserve to lose at this point.

The potential Texas used-car dealer ownership looks pretty good in hindsight…

By Kudzu

August 22, 2006 08:34 AM | Link to this

The Hawks might as well “give” AL away. By the time all this “negoitating” is done, the Hawks will have nothing in return.

Typical looser mentality by the Hawks management. They have no strengths. And they will look so foolish, once again, when they finally give AL away; the other team will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Pathetic…I’m sick of seeing this crap in the paper every day; just get it over with, already.

By EastAthensDawg

August 22, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

So let me get this straight. The Hawks will trade one of their best players to a team that makes the playoffs every year for their first-round draft pick, which means it will be a non-lottery pick? Hard to believe Knight isn’t executive of the year every year.

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this

I believe it’s only BK’s fault in that he did not trade Al last year… This is on The Atlanta Spirit for cheaping out.

Go Falcons!

By Clyde

August 22, 2006 08:46 AM | Link to this

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY. If we would have traded AL at the All-Star break we would have had the pick to get Marcus Williams.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 09:12 AM | Link to this

Hey Clyde, you should change your campaign to FIRE THE ATLANTA SPIRIT, BILLY, AND WOODY

Between cheaping out on getting something useful this season for Al, and having the most imcompetant lawyers running their business possible, they deserve to go.

By DekaturKing

August 22, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

Billy Knight is useless. In my mind. He’s just a puppet for the owners.

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 10:27 AM | Link to this

And no I have no reason to believe Belkin would be any better.. I believe the Atlanta Spirit would be willing to spend the dollars on the teams if their ownership was not at risk in court and if there legal fees and losses were not so serious, and I have my doubts Belkin would be good for the Hawks at all.

Any chance the NBA can step in and force a sale to a new owner? I guess not. Compare how solid the Falcons are in ownership and management with Blank at the top verses The Atlanta Spirit for the Hawks - they may be forced to ‘cheap out’ for another year or more, if the court case takes that long..

Tough to be a Hawks fan sometimes….

By smartguy

August 22, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

billy knight is defintiely the worst. the worst part of our organization, the worst gm, simply the worst all-around. anybody would be an improvement, even that guy beetlejuice from the howard stern show.

who me? yea, i like basketball.

By Astro Joe

August 22, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

“He’s just a puppet for the owners”.

Okay, now that one may win my prize of the year. Why do you think that he is a puppet for the owners? Because he is an employee who collects a check every month from them? Because he is spending THEIR money and not his own? Because if they lose the court battle to Belkin he is fired before Belkin leaves the courtroom? Why on earth would the GM of the Hawks take orders from the owners unless he is simply a puppet?

I have another piece of insightful information DekaturKing, Paris Hilton ain’t no virgin.

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

I second for “that one may win my prize of the year” DekaturKing ‘owned’ right there.

By doc

August 22, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

clyde, dude, why do you think the spirit would have wanted a contract to pay off back in february if they didnt want one now? the owners didnt want any more salary to deal with. rememeber, this deal is attractive to the spirit because they dont have to pay any more money, real simple stuff. it just doesnt support your campaign so you wont throw the arrows at the right target. now that sekou has finally begun to realize or at least report it are you going to be the last to finally get it? at least it seems that there will be a no. one come of it and that is all they wold have wanted or gotten back then.

sekou, does this really point out how little worth that al has that no one was willing to pay him significant dollars for his efforts? telleum tested the waters and found little out there. i thought one of the reasons for the sign and trade was that he could up the numbers in bucks and increase the length of his contract. what benefit is it to him to do the sign and trade period, cant he just walk for a four year contract?

By newkid

August 22, 2006 11:52 AM | Link to this

The Spirit will likely soon apply a full court press to pump up season and package ticket sales, right? Many of us are rightly concerned about the extent to which the owners are committed to - and capable of - producing a high quality product deserving of our financial support, right? This franchise has been consumed by an incredible amount of turmoil over the past couple of years, and the view across the horizon doesn’t look particularly pleasing for many of us fans. Is it unreasonable then to strongly request representatives of the Spirit to submit themselves to a ‘no holds barred’ interview with Sekou so that we, the purchasing public, might get much better insight into ownership’s past, present, and future thinking/plans as relates to the product we’re asked to support? Is it unreasonable to ask Sekou and his editors at the AJC to publish say a week-long expose’ in mid-October on a variety of questions that we get to help construct? Wouldn’t this be just the sort of opportunity the Spirit (hopefully including Belkin) should seek so as to reach out to a very disconnected - but very interested - fan base?

Sekou, would love to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Well said newkid. I feel the same way.

By Kappy

August 22, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

Ando I respect you and your posts, but im getting really tired of hearing your take on how Phoenix raped us.

Sure, it may look like we gave up too much to get JJ, but lets remember how futile our efforts were in getting a big name FA to come here. Do you think BK just threw in an extra draft pick just because? He obviously saw that the deal wouldnt have happened without it. He couldnt take the chance of phoenix backing out of the deal. We needed a marquee player, and even though nobody thought JJ was that guy, we have all been proven wrong. BK was right in his assessment of JJ, even though it did cost us. We’ve had several lottery picks in a row, and maybe he thought the 4th in 4 years wasnt that important. Obtaining JJ was the top priority for him. and i agree. Plus, he knew we could get a first-rounder for AL in the future.

Stop badgering the guy and look at the big picture!

By G-Money

August 22, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

Doc, I’m with you on this ownership thing. The reason that they all came together because no one individual had enough cash to purchase the team. They are all probably highly leveraged at this time because the glamour of being owner of an NBA team was a really sexy at the time. The reality is that the Hawks are bleeding a bunch of red ink. They aren’t sold out. They aren’t “must see TV.” And they aren’t selling a bunch of paraphernalia. Joe’s number 4 jersey isn’t jumping off any shelves even in Atlanta. Thus, as businessmen who thought that the turnaround in cashflow was going to be quick, they are now faced with taking on Belkin’s share of the expenses while mitigating their own mounting losses. If they are to stay in the game at all, they CANNOT take on any more large salaries short term or otherwise.

On another note, I actually am anxious to see what the young guys with a year or so of experience can do in this league. Lo Wright deal feels like it’s gonna happen, and if the Hawks win 35 to 40 with most of those wins at home, they might average 15K a night in attendance starting around early January. If I’m an owner trying to get by until I can get the 400 lb Belkin gorilla off my back, I’m ok with that.

By mykhalc

August 22, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

DOC, you are right on it. and for me, i finally get the answer that puzzled me for soooo long last season…”WHY WASN’T COLLIER’S SPOT BEING FILLED?” well, it’s been ALL about the money for quite some time, huh???!!! at least a lot longer than i ever thought it was!!! (i know, i’m slower than some on this blog) LOL at this point, i really wish STERN would step in and get rid of ‘em ALL!! i’ve always given BK the benefit of doubt and i must say, he’s gotta have one of the worst jobs in the nba tryin’ to deal this ownership group/mess!!! THE ATLANTA SPIRIT GROUP = THE ATLANTA BROKE A## STOOGES GROUP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

when i lived in ATL in the ‘80’s i was a season ticket holder for the hawks. and there would be NO WAY i could support this ownership in this day!!!! i’ll ALWAYS be a HAWKS fan but this ownership group, ALL OF THEM MUST GO!!!!! PERIOD!!!!

for AL, 4yr/36mil or whatever is all i’d be willingly to go. BUT at the same time NENE got what????????? random drug testing needs to be done on the freakin’ OWNERS!!!!!!!!!! and start with ours!!!!!!!!!!!! geesh!!!

By doc

August 22, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

mykhalc/gmoney, all either the stern man or the union can do is require that a team spend so much money and “suggest” a team spend only a limited amount. look at the clippers if you want to see how the hawks are being run comparitively speaking and what to expect for right now. billys job and only job is to try and get a team on the court for so many dollars, if they win ok, but that isnt the objective. that has been his job for three years as the aol bunch tanked the team and now the court process is mandating the same. will stand by what i said earlier if they press 38 wins which i think they can that will be a huge accomplishment and should be a testament to the players, coaches and billy.

By HB Ando

August 22, 2006 01:50 PM | Link to this

Kappy, I’ve explained the reasons why I believe Phoenix wouldn’t have matched. Your quote:

“He obviously saw that the deal wouldnt have happened without it. He couldnt take the chance of phoenix backing out of the deal.”

highlights what he must have “believed”, but being wrong is a very real possibility for BK in this instance. And being wrong, repeatedly (add Shelden to yet another mistake) is why he’s a poor choice for GM. It’s never been about Johnson’s talent. It’s about a Phoenix team that wasn’t going to pay him $70 million to be the fourth option there. Billy has an eye for talent. So do a lot of other scouts in the NBA. Doesn’t mean he has the skill to be a general manager.

My view of Billy has been as expansive as possible. All big picture. I’ll agree that his questionable moves have only been highlighted by an ownership group that has set him up to fail. But the two issues, bad GM’ing and bad ownership, are not mutually exclusive. They work in tandem to create a very depressing expectation for yet another season of losing Hawks’ basketball.

Joe, you don’t have a patent on insight into why ownership would look to limit their losses if they believe they will lose the franchise. It’s been obivous since the ruling came down in Belkins’ favor, and we’ve discussed it at great lentgth this summer. You act like you’ve pointed out something we’ve missed. You haven’t. Duh!

By HB Ando

August 22, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

MM, it should be pretty obvious, from a financial standpoint, that the owners aren’t about to pay for both Wright and Smith. They don’t want salaries in return. It’s a moot point if the rumors of the Indy deal are correct. But it’s still worth noting that your belief that we would, or should, look to pay for both Smith and Wright, makes no sense at all.

How many career role players does it take to screw a lottery-bound team into the ground?

By Astro Joe

August 22, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

The big question is are they cheap because they are cheap or is the lack of spending tied to the battle for ownership rights. I still think that it is fairly stupid to invest in a property that has already been appraised and may go to another party. Its not like they can do anything to increase the amount that Belkin has to pay. That price is locked in. So the optimist in me says that they are keeping salaries low until such time that they have full, long-term ownership control. Then, they could invest in upgrading the roster and trading players for players and not monopoly money. The pessimist in me says that the only time that someone co-owns a business (especially with more than 1-2 partners) is because they don’t have the financial assets to do it themselves. So if these guys don’t have the bank accounts, have put themselves into a timely and costly legal action, have purchased a lot of debt and continue to grow their debt, then this thing can quickly go from bad to worse. Much like others have beat the Chris Paul or Diaw thing to death, I have beaten the heck out of the philosophy “follow the money”. And while that has led me away from BK and directly to the ownership group, it hasn’t helped me figure out what is behind the frugality that has made Indiana the one and only trade partner for Al.

By michael m.

August 22, 2006 03:02 PM | Link to this

ando, understand that if bk and zen’s agents have a firm agreement that is ONLY contingent on the harrington s&t, then i look at that deal as done. i doubt it is contingent on who we get back in the trade. zen’s very reasonable contract is 2 years, not the one that smith’s expiring deal is. and smith would most likely have been traded before the season played out. it is his contract that the atlanta scrooges don’t want to pay. furthermore, he is a power forward. zen is going to be a center for us. center is what we really need, not another power forward. surprised you don’t get that. and as a gm, your word needs to mean something. going back on it will cause damage down the line. i have no problem with bk making the zen wright deal, i think it was a really good move. and for your information, what screws lottery bound players into the ground is large contracts (both years and dollar amounts) paid to mediocre players and players who are on the downside of their careers. 2 years/6 mil for wright is nothing in the scheme of your weak argument. and smith’s 1 year remaining at 8 million was never about joe smith. it was about a contract that allowed the hawks to receive preferred pieces in trade for harrington.

mountain jim, not calling you out, but maybe you should read the posts above before posting yourself so you don’t just repeat what’s already been stated without expanding further.

By clyde

August 22, 2006 03:13 PM | Link to this

Doc I wasn’t talking bout another salary. I was saying at the all-star break playoff teams were looking for bench help. We could have traded Al then for a first rounder and no players back (which could have landed us Marcus Williams) instead of trading Al for a first rounder in next year’s draft. If all we are going to get is a first rounder then I would have rather had it this year.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By michael m.

August 22, 2006 03:14 PM | Link to this

astro,

it is pretty obvious that their fear of losing the team to belkin is what’s driving their reluctance to take on additional salary. if that reluctance cost us the chance to get a bynum, o’bryant or camby, then they are hurting the team in a way they shouldn’t. but if the only other trading options were a joe smith or chris mihm and change in order to secure a #1 pick, the damage is neglible in my opinion. all of us would love to secure a true piece to the puzzle for harrington, but the pickings appear slim. there can be no doubt, however, that the word is out that our owners don’t want to take on any salary, and that has cost us any leverage we may have had in negotiating. the beneficiary is the pacers getting al at a reduced rate. harrington loses since he cannot get the money golden state and denver appeared willing to throw his way. the hawks are still getting their #1 pick. i believe it will be 2007 lotto protected. that would appear to be the tradeoff for eliminating our demand for cash. if the pick is only 2008 lotto protected at the earliest, then our owners are hurting the franchise with their frugal conditions.

By Astro Joe

August 22, 2006 03:16 PM | Link to this

Ando, I know, that’s why I was surprised by your barren roster comment, as if you expected something different than a few crakers and a jar of peanut butter on the shelf.

And your patent is about the owners agreeing to sign up for the JJ trade to break the ownership group. Yet you continue to want to blame BK for the JJ transaction. I guess you could be blaming him for taking it to Gearon for consideration in the first place. But maybe the owners were heavily involved with every step in the process of acquiring their very first major free agent as relatively new NBA owners. For all we know, BK may have thought the price was too high, but still was obligated to share the counter offer from Colangelo. Maybe he objectively layed out the options to the owners and let them decide how to proceed. Given the early warning signs that the ownership group was already fractured, that would have been a wise ploy to force THEM to work through their issues. I have sat in many corporate meetings where someone has intentionally forced a heated discussion for the purpose of fixing team dynamics (or facilitating a power play to formally break a process). At the end of the day, I think the franchise is managed much more like a major corporation than it is a fantasy basketball league.

We don’t know. But according to you, there was an ulterior motive associated with the JJ transaction that was initiated by the non-Belkin owners of the Spirit. So with that in mind, what would you have had BK do differently?

By Astro Joe

August 22, 2006 03:28 PM | Link to this

Clyde, unless a team was sitting on a $7.5M trade exception in February who needed Al and decided that he was worth that very valuable and elusive chip, then we would have had to take back salaries in February in we had traded him. And maybe there were teams that could have given us the monopoly money and a draft pick we desired. I would also suggest that you consider the first half production of Smith. Or said differently, Smith’s strong second half probably helped with the basketball decision of dumping Al, if in fact, there was ever a basketball discussion about whether to keep him or not.

By DekaturKing

August 22, 2006 03:40 PM | Link to this

Billy Knight is still a puppet! Astro. He’s slightly better than Your buddy, good old Pete (Kill a franchise) Babcock!

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 04:17 PM | Link to this

Well michael m since you did call me out, I admit my post at 8:30am was not much different in reasoning or pov from yours from 10:42pm the night before, but it’s my opinion expressed in my words (which just happened to largely agree with yours) and since this a blog I exercized the opportunity to express it.

I was expressing my views on the matter, not attempting to add to the facts of the matter as I have no more of those than you.

I am so sorry I did not either keep silent or explicitly reference and agree with your prior statements, as it appears you don’t want to have to read others views if similar to your already expressed ones.

Not.

By G-Money

August 22, 2006 04:19 PM | Link to this

DecaturKing, I have to take exception to that remark about BK. While BK has made some questionable moves that we all agree on, what he has done in no way approximates what Babcock did during his gosh awful reign of terror.

By Astro Joe

August 22, 2006 04:32 PM | Link to this

Clyde, I take back my comment about the February trade. There was definitely a better trade to have been made that would have netted more assets for virtually no incremental salaries. But hey, it didn’t happen. BK got to comb his afro for 11 months without making any serious basketball moves. Why on earth would he want to do anything to improve this team and his resume when he could just enjoy the Play Station game in his office?

By michael m.

August 22, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

mg, relax or grow up. realizing how it can come off in print, i expressly said i was not calling you out. i was just pointing out it’s good to read what has already been posted since it seemed as if you hadn’t.

By honest_abe

August 22, 2006 05:40 PM | Link to this

FINALLY!

By Kappy

August 22, 2006 05:43 PM | Link to this

YES!!!!

No disrespect to AL, we do appreciate your services, but thank God this is over! And good riddance to John Edwards too. How walsh gave him a contract to begin with is unreal. i think cal bowdler was better than him.

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 05:46 PM | Link to this

Still no mention of the details of the pick in Sekou’s writeup…

‘for a first-round draft pick’

By newkid

August 22, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

Well, nothing yet from Sekou on the suggestion of an extensive AJC expose’ on ‘the nasty divorce that interrupted the transformation of our Hawks’, and nothing new and interesting to blog about so… I’m feeling a bit scarcastic after a bad afternoon, so lemme have a go at this.

Let me suggest, Sekou, that we structure the expose’ in three juicy parts. First, ‘the honeymoon’ (i.e., the period just after the marriage of those comprising the Spirit to just prior to commencement of discussions with Phoenix for JJ’s services. The exuberance of the honeymoon might, mightn’t it, be characterized by a fairly well-conceived plan to purge the roster of bad contracts and aging unproductive players, and rebuild using what was certain to be a series of consecutive annual lottery opportunities on the heels of what was certain to be at least 2-3 yeas of far below 0.500 performances by an emaciated team. Supplement these young lottery guns with the odd under-valued FAs, and 1-2 exceptional - and perhaps costly - top flight talents, and pretty soon we’ve got a contender, a full house each night, and a franchise whose value has dramatically increased. A decent enough plan, isn’t it? Surely quite a lot of really excellent questions could be asked of this period, wouldn’t you say?

Second phase, oh why not call it ‘the affair’. Start it with the commencement of the JJ discussions and end it with completion of the deal. Geez, imagine the array of really compelling questions we could devise given what we think we know now about intentions of some of those owners who may have seen this ‘affair’ as an opportunity to ‘out and resolve’ a fundamental flaw in the marriage. “Oh, but what about the welfare of the family (read that ‘quality of the product’) as we pursue opportunities presented by this affair. It’s Billy’s job, he’ll handle.”

Then let’s call the third phase ‘the long divorce’; August, 2005 through who knows. Why no ‘replacement’ for Collier? Why no deal for Al at the trade deadling? Why no player take-backs (good or bad) in the S/T for Al during July/August/September? negotiations? Why? Why? Why?

Phase 4? Stay tuned.

Well, maybe I shouldn’t have.

By Andy

August 22, 2006 05:51 PM | Link to this

yeah yeah yeah—it is done. Al is gone!!! And if the hawks wouldn’t mind losing more than ever—-get into a top three pick situation—-that would be two #1 pick in one of the deepest drafts in years.

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 05:54 PM | Link to this

Andy you are assuming (it seems to me) that this pick is for 2007. I have not read or heard anyone to confirm that at this point.

I still fear/expect its for 2008, unless that was what changed because of the $3 million cash back going away.

By lacsho

August 22, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this

Now that the madness is over, I wonder if we’ll ever get an explanation, so we can understand the method to this madness. We waited the whole summer for a first round draft pick. At this time, I ponder is this the best product we can put on the floor? I hate to pose that question, because know one knows what the hell is going on behind closed doors. This ownership debacle puts a dark cloud over this franchise. There’s a guy in my British Literature class that works for the Hawks; I wonder if he can give me any damn insight? I think I’ll ask him some questions Thursday.

Peace !!!!

By doc

August 22, 2006 06:04 PM | Link to this

astro, what trade do you know of that was available at the deadline that the hawks didnt take?

can anyone add up the numbers for last years team salary and give a comparison to this years salary structure assuming a signing of lorenzen wright? feel it would be about 5 to 8 mil smaller this year. how close is this team to the “must spend” cap? though few teams are significantly over the cap this year most except the hawks and the carolina franchise are near cap bottom. heard that the carolina group is still below minimum and will have to go out and throw some money at someone.

By LAJ

August 22, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this

Deal Done.

By doc

August 22, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

meant cap max rather than bottom. the bottom dwellers for salary are atlanta and carolina. dont recall any other organization going into the season so close to minimum.

at least it isnt baseball where some owners can stop spending money period like they did in miami.

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 06:11 PM | Link to this

Indystar says its a 2007 - lottery protected

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060822/SPORTS04/60822035

By lacsho

August 22, 2006 06:17 PM | Link to this

The Pacers sent a trade exception and a 2007 lottery-protected first-round draft pick to Atlanta for Harrington and center John Edwards

Please someone school me on the trade exception, does that mean the Hawks pocket the 7.5 mill that came from the Hornets throught the Peja deal?

By mountain_jim

August 22, 2006 06:21 PM | Link to this

Next question: Since the deal no longer included the $3 million cash back, will the Atlanta Spirit still be funding their agreement in principle to sign Wright?

By lacsho

August 22, 2006 06:22 PM | Link to this

Here’s a link for FAQ pertaining to the NBA salary cap.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm

By lacsho

August 22, 2006 06:24 PM | Link to this

Doc Here’s your answer:At the other end of the spectrum there is a minimum team salary, which is defined as 75% of the salary cap. Any team that doesn’t spend at least that much is surcharged at the end of the season, and that money is given to the players. In practice, most teams’ salaries will be higher than the salary cap amount.

By dskjflsa

August 22, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

FINALLLY WE TRADED AL

By Olskool

August 22, 2006 06:40 PM | Link to this

According to an ESPN article I saw a couple of months ago - the Hawks were about 18 min under the cap. Then we signed S Claxton and our draft picks and with the expected signing of L Wright and the loss of Edwards the number will be appx 7 mil under. Next season T Lue, Batista and R Ivey’s contracts expire which would give us about 4-5 more million - that along with an increase in the salary cap (minus increased salarys for our younger players) should put us in position to go after a big name free agent in 07’. Though I am taking a wait and see approach to BK’s player personal moves - I appreciate and applaud himn for his cap management. One more year of grooming the young guys and we can if we so choose make a big move in free agency next year like the Chicago Bulls did this year. (can anybody say Mike Bibby) Lets just hope the 01 pick from Indiana is a 07 pick to replace the one we will probably lose in the JJ trade.

By Zach

August 22, 2006 06:48 PM | Link to this

This trade gives true Hawks fans to teams to root for next year, the Hawks and whoever the Pacers are playing. For all the doubters and all of the naysay that goes on we will field a very competitive team that will be in 90% of the games they play. Whether or not we can win 55% of those games remains to be scene but it will be fun to watch.

By doc

August 22, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

lashcho, thanks but i knew the answer to that question, wanted to know where the hawks now stood in comparison to last year. the minimum and maximum increased about ten to fifteen percent over last year with the new cba. the minimum last year was about 33 mil and this year it is about 39 mil. the hawks stood at about 40 mil last year and that was a take off in one of the many disagreements the hawks owners had before the ultimate split over the terms of jj. i think instead of going up ten percent in salary this year to keep up, they have back peddled and decreased their total salary expenditures over last year.

By billy

August 22, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

Can’t complain about getting a lotto protected ‘07 pick. If that’s what it is, then Billy did well considering they didn’t want to take back big salaries.

By MBATL

August 22, 2006 07:17 PM | Link to this

Can someone please tell me what ‘lottery protected’ means. How low does that go? Top 3, top 8, top 16? Thanks!

By josh

August 22, 2006 07:31 PM | Link to this

A gut from the realgm forum said it best about the trade “its like getting socks for christmas…..lol……not exciting, but you need it.”

By josh

August 22, 2006 07:33 PM | Link to this

guy not gut

By MBATL

August 22, 2006 07:37 PM | Link to this

Can someone please tell me what ‘lottery protected’ means. How low does that go? Top 3, top 8, top 16? Thanks!

By HB Ando

August 22, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

Joe, now you’re just a liar.

“But according to you, there was an ulterior motive associated with the JJ transaction that was initiated by the non-Belkin owners of the Spirit. So with that in mind, what would you have had BK do differently?”

Not only have I not said anything of the kind, I specifically have refuted that position on several occassions.

So you’re just a liar now. You’ve misreprented my comments and my position despite having been corrected. Again. For the umpteenth time. It’s a shame that your desire to establish some level of superiority over me, as it’s sits on this blog, has led you astray from just posting solid, subjective opinions that differ from others. I guess this is what you feel you must do, but you lower yourself in the process.

You’re follow the money philosophy gained credibility “after” the Spirit lost in court. Prior to that, Belkin was everybody’s bad guy for supposedly wanting to run the franchise on the cheap. Now it’s the Spirit who have taken us to the same place. Again, you didn’t bring any news here by underscoring the pointlessness of the Spirit incurring losses that they cannot get reimbursed for by Belkin, nor recover if the teams are transferred to his ownership. I noted it earlier this summer, and it’s been covered.

If you think that the situation we’re in now somehow ties strongly to supporting the nonsense that Billy’s overpaying for Johnson was an ownership-driven conspriracy from the outset, then our dumber than I ever thought.

You’re efforts to re-direct all questionable moves, or non-moves, that this franchise has engaged in over the last three years, under the guidance of Billy Knight, as being solely the responsibility of ownership is Don Quixote-esque.

Stop making stuff up regarding my opinions. It forces me to waste time responding and takes away from energy I could place into discussing basketball. It really kind of hacks me off.

You’re much more respectable being one of the sharper basketball minds here, rather than a liar with an HB Ando agenda that serves no purpose.

With the completion of the Harrington transaction, we now know that this team is not committed to optimizing its product for the upcoming season. The reticence to spend necessary money is understandable, given the possibility that they will lose the franchise.

My very first post after Belkin won judgement mentioned folks missing the forest for the trees. It highlighted the likelihood that we would end up suffering the most as a result of the situation. That fear is now realized (though it had nothing to do with the astoundingly poor decision to draft Shelden Williams at #5; Joe, please explain to me how that decision was a result of ownership’s financial dilemna, and not just a purely bad basketball decision by Billy Knight).

Billy’s decision to give up his leverage with Harrington, by not trading him prior to the deadline, was yet another bad move. It can’t be viewed as financially motivated because whatever we took on would have matched what we gave away, in Al expiring contract, for the remainder of the season. If it had been Watson and Nene, which was widely reported to have been an option at the time, then, with no ability for any of us to defend that Speedy or Watson represent a significant upgrade over the other, the money we spent on Speedy would have covered Watson. No change there, cap-wise. If Nene would have expected the deal he got from Denver, then we had the leverage of his restricted status to sign-and-trade him, where, it appears, his market value would have been higher than Al’s. Since the ownership situation was clearly unsettled at the time, Billy added to the uncertainty of his choice, by not acknowledging that non-basketball factors could further harm the value he could expect in return for Al (and it’s pure Pollyanna to suggest that Billy could not have had an inkling that these extenuating factors were still percolating and could further weaken his manueverability).

If you need to hear me say it’s not all Billy’s fault, then you’ve read my ongoing posts with absolute blinders on. I’ve never said it was all his fault. And I’ve never denied that ownership has minimized his effectiveness. I’ve just said he isn’t the right guy to revive this franchise, a position I’ve tried my best to support in discussing basketball, rather than wildly speculative, and unsupportable theories on what is going on behind the scenes with the owners.

If this is all about the Spirit, then I think it’s fairly obvious that Belkin can’t do any worse, and I won’t have any problems with him taking over the team.

I predicted last summer that the Hawks would bungle the near-term rebuilding in such a way as to have the worst possible outcome regarding that ‘07 pick Billy gifted to Phoenix. Directionless, they would not be good enough to make the playoffs and limit the value of that pick, but would do a few things well enough to also miss out on keeping a top-3 pick, and drafting a franchise big man to lead us out of generations’ long pit of basketball despair. Watch now, as Phoenix, one of the top-five franchises in the NBA, drafted a future superstar with that pick (and if it’s fifth overall, be certain that their choice will be so monumentally better than what we got with our fifth pick this season, as to add absolute insult to mortal injury).

One baby step forward, with the signing of essentially a career back-up point guard (though I think he was the best low-priced option we could have signed, to give relative credit where it is due). Two big steps backwards, with the mystifying selection of Shelden Williams, and now the trading of a player who was top-30 in scoring last season, for a pick that will likely fall between 20 and 25 (as Sekou so accurately pointed out in his post).

For the folks who see nothing but sunny skies for this franchise, I can only wish to have half of your optimism. I wonder if anyone would trade us a lottery pick next summer for Shelden and Indy’s pick. Guess not.

By jhan

August 22, 2006 07:54 PM | Link to this

How is it possible to guarantee your team a top 3 pick? Don’t the ping pong balls have to fall your way for that to happen? If you have the worst record in the league are you guaranteed to draft no worse than 3rd?

At least this trade is finally completed. Can’t say I’m overly excited about what we got in return. Here’s to signing a stud FA next year with all the extra money we will have!

By Dale

August 22, 2006 08:15 PM | Link to this

I can’t believe what I’m reading. Some of you people I swear are being paid by the Spirit Group to post some of these crazy “we’ll have more crap room comments”.

Ando. why do you even waste your time. You are a very good writer, and you have a lot of good basketball sense (expect for you opinion of LaMarcus Aldridge). These blind, and ignorant, fools are an embarrasment to the City. THE TEAM IS WORSE THAN LAST YEAR, AND THESE DUMB MOTHER*UCKERS ARE TALKING ABOUT SIGNING A STUD FA NEXT YEAR!!!

By DALE

August 22, 2006 08:18 PM | Link to this

I almost forgot…

FIRE BILLY, FIRE WOODY, FIRE THE SPRIRIT GROUP, BRING IN BELKIN PLEASE!!!!

By MBATL

August 22, 2006 08:33 PM | Link to this

Can someone please tell me what ‘lottery protected’ means. How low does that go? Top 3, top 8, top 16? Thanks!

By Richie Rich

August 22, 2006 08:54 PM | Link to this

Just like i said before, Billy Knight Sucks!!, he will never have another job after his a* is fired here in Atlanta.

Ando said it best, we take one step forward, then two steps backwards……Billy looks more and more lost as the weeks roll on. Heck, even Al said that Indy got over on the Hawks.

By billy

August 22, 2006 09:10 PM | Link to this

Top 13, MBATL.

By Steve B.

August 22, 2006 09:25 PM | Link to this

It’s being reported on ESPN.com that the ownership told BK to get draft picks or cash and not to take back contracts. So how are some of you blaming BK for doing what his bosses told him to do?

By michael m.

August 22, 2006 09:41 PM | Link to this

actually the top 14 picks are lottery picks. if indy makes the playoffs, we will get the pick next year, 2007. if they do not make the playoffs we will not get the pick until 2008 at the earliest.

ando, not fair to compare shelden to whoever next year’s #5 pick is going to be. next year’s draft class is vastly superior to this years. you know that as well as i do. play fair, my friend.

and to those who think we will sign a top fa next year, don’t count on it. until our ownership situation is resolved, it’s not going to happen. it will be two years before ownership is forced to make some decisions in terms of signing our own guys like smith and childress. not sure if this ownership free-for-all will be concluded by this time next year so the players we have now are most likely going to be it. let’s hope their chemistry together is excellent. i don’t even think we are allowed to fire woodsen until it gets resolved.

harrington barking about the importance of going to a winner makes me laugh. i like al, but his hypocrisy is so transparent here. according to him, the knicks and warriors are going to be winners as well. give me a break. let’s be honest; al was about getting paid. he can be upset at the hawks all he wants, but it”s indiana who is stiffing him out of the $22 million more that they could have paid him. believe me, al would have preferred going to golden state for 6 years/$66 mill. it would be great if winning really was most players #1 priority, but until these guys hit their 30s and the tail end of their career, the green trumps all.

By mykhalc

August 22, 2006 10:07 PM | Link to this

MM, totally with ya on Al’s hypocrisy!! AL DOES NOT get what he wants so the HAWKS get played?? YEAH RIGHT AL!!! like i said earlier, AL with a 4yr/35mil is the most i woulda done!! he’s JUST NOT THAT GOOD a player!!! i should say ‘all-around, difference-maker’ of a player. and again, NENE gettin’ what he got…all the owners must be usin’!!! i think we’ll all find out that AL’s 19/6 will EASILY be replaced by MARVIN this year…way more smoother at 20yr old than AL is at 26. just needs PT now!!

and the HAWKS got exactly what they were WILLINGLY to take back!!! NO BAD/USELESS/UNWANTED CONTRACTS!! now it is a shame that they did not want more. ‘cause as fans we continue to suffer. and you can say want you want, but this ain’t BK’s fault!! THE ATLANTA BROKE A## STOOGES GROUP!

By G Money

August 22, 2006 10:08 PM | Link to this

I think everyone knows that this was purely a business move with no regard for the team and the season as it currently stands. BK believe the young guys are ready (or at least that’s the face he puts on). I for one, believe that JChills must be the surprise X factor in order for them to really get past 35 wins. Let’s also hope that Lo Wright gets signed and that he’s hungry. The team is in a holding pattern this year (or spinning it mildly - a year of talent development). Frankly, all this shoulda-woulda stuff is really passe’ now. The deals are done. It’s time for the real playas to hit the floor and either show up or shut it down so that we do get a top 3 pick next year. I’m feeling like several of you — the Hawks will hold their own as long as Woody coaches his *ss off; that means facilitating the team believing in itself and giving them some REAL strategies and options for closing out and winning games in the 4th quarter. This last year it seemed that he didn’t believe in the product at times. That quickly filters down.

By NumbaOneFan

August 22, 2006 10:33 PM | Link to this

Well I can finallly post again now that AL has been whoooshed out of town. My first reaction is well….. relief! My second reaction is frustration since I feel we culd ave gotten more value for AL if we had traded him last season to a contender, however that didn’t happen and we have to move on. My third reaction is….. excitement that now we can actually sign LO Wright and begin planning for the season fast approaching. Now we are way under the cap but, with the Broke Asse Sprit Group not wanting to sign or take on any contracts that pretty much means were done in the way of signign anyone else that may help us. The best we can all as devoted and educated Hawks fans can do is support the teh team and hope the moves that were made can bring us a 40+ win season. Until this ownership clusterfluck has been resoved I don’t think it would make any difference if we had another GM. I dont really agree with BK’s way of doing things or the way he goes about communicating with the fanbase but at this stage it’s what we got to the dance with so we might as well enjoy the music and dance. The entire Sprit group are a bunch of A*******holes. Go Hawks!!!

By HB Ando

August 22, 2006 11:38 PM | Link to this

MM, you’ve just reinforced a long-standing point I’ve been making since last summer. EVERYONE knows how much better next years’ draft will be than this one. So why didn’t Billy take more care to protect what will almost assuredly be a lottery pick in the ‘07 draft, when making the Johnson deal. If he was going to burn one, then why not ‘06, when EVERYBODY knew that the lack of the high school class would leave the ranks the thinnest in a decade. So there’s the point: Billy keeps the weak draft pick, fails to improve the team enough to minimize the price he overpaid for Johnson, and we get stuck watching Phoenix take a top-ten pick, in what many believe will be one of the strongest lottery’s this side of LeBron’s class. It’s not like this perspective is unfolding now, and could not have been considered at the time of the trade, because I started talking about the implications of the ‘07 draft pick right when the Johnson deal was done. And I said, “they either have to plan to be bad enough to keep the top-3, shooting for Oden, or they better be damn sure that they’re good enough that they’re sending a mid-first rounder to Phoenix. But the last thing they can afford to do is aimlessly meander in the ‘07 draft, handing the Suns a star.”

You’re damn right that next years’ #5 will be better than Shelden. But I knew that last summer. Why wasn’t Billy thinking about that when he made the deal?

That being said, I’m not disagreeing with anyone who says that it wouldn’t matter who was the GM RIGHT NOW, as ownership has handcuffed this franchise. For all the Joe’s and doc’s, you’re right that it’s on the owners now. Letting Belkin turn the tables on them in court is still mind-boggling to me, especially when you consider that several of the Spririt make their living as attorney’s. But the team, and the roster, could have survived this period of ownership instability if Billy had done a better job of quickly and efficiently rebuilding the roster. With a handful of alternate choices, that we’ve talked into the ground, we really could have had a playoff contending team this season. His mis-steps put us behind schedule. And ownerships’ drama leave him no currency or leverage to show us whether he could play catch up and prove critics like me wrong. Now what we have is a very questionable outlook for the immediate future. And Billy has a built-in excuse for another losing season. I’m bummed.

Here’s a play that doesn’t require taking on additonal salary, and won’t undermine what projects to be a lottery-bound season: Show me some skills, Billy, and trade the Indy pick and Childress to someone who realistically projects to a lottery pick. And for those of you who say that no one would be crazy enough to give up a top-ten pick in a draft so loaded with talent, I have only to point to Billy Knight to show you someone who is.

By Jim

August 22, 2006 11:44 PM | Link to this

A little perspective please on the Hawks moves. Everyone is up in arms that “we wouldn’t take on any salary”. Thats crap. we wouldn’t take on BAD salaries. Last year we (supposedly) could have had Nene and Watson. We would NEVER have resigned Nene, but could have parlayed him in a Sign and Trade just like Al. Maybe even gotten slightly more. What did we get? Heres the trade, in 3 steps. We traded Harrington and Edwards for Speedy, Lorenzen, and a 1st rd pick. Am I missing something ??? Isn’t that a phenomenal trade??? Oh, but we missed out on … Earl Watson and his 30 mil. Boo Hoo. Salaries ? We took on Speedy’s 6.5, Lorenzens 3 mil, and got a pick. Not coincidentally, those salaries are more than Al made last year. I’m no fan of BK. He certainly doesnt maximize our draft slots. But whining about the doom and gloom over this deal is absurd. Laughable even… Harrington and Edwards for Speedy, Lorenzen, and a #1 Pick. Wake up folks. If we did that deal last year at the deadline ALL of you would have sang BK’s praises. I’m making no predictions. I’m not saying we’re playoff bound. But, please, at least understand the big picture b4 you cry a river.

By CJ

August 22, 2006 11:54 PM | Link to this

If this was a business move then these clown owners must go. They aren’t concerned with winning….which puts fans in seats. It’s all spin with these guys, fans of our president I see. The squad currently on the floor is barely if at all better than last year. Losing 19 and 7 is going to hurt. Smith’s numbers will be barely better than last year and I don’t expect Marvin to average no more than 14 pts. I hope Claxton has worked on this jump shot, were gonna need it. Oddly enough we are about the same defensively. And yes, this is BK’s last GM job…I can hear them laughing around the leauge. Good side is..when new ownership takes over they can have a clean slate with no long term contracts.

By Clyde

August 23, 2006 12:02 AM | Link to this

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY t-shirts still available.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By CJ

August 23, 2006 12:02 AM | Link to this

It’s not about contracts and money. It’s about importing players to help this roster. The Hawks could’ve talked to a number of teams about AL before the deadline. We are sitting here talking about proposed trades from other teams..but not once did the Hawks initiate a proposal themselves. What happened to all of these other teams asking about AL? We couldn’t find not one quality starter from them? They just stewed over what handouts or trades other teams proded them with. So talking about nene, watson, whoever…it doesn’t matter. Maybe it’s all we can expect because our credibility has been shot ever since the PHX deal anyway. BK and these owners can’t negotiate..end of story.

By Clyde

August 23, 2006 12:14 AM | Link to this

I don’t care what know one says but what Mark Bradley said in his column is right. Trading 2 players for a draft pick doesn’t make any sense. Never have and never will.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By CJ

August 23, 2006 12:27 AM | Link to this

A draft pick we already gave up the previous year to PHX … I’ll leave the blog now. Good luck fans, atleast the Grizz are north.

By ray

August 23, 2006 12:55 AM | Link to this

I don’t like how this turned out at all. Oh well. What’s making me almost laugh though is how some of us are turning on each other because of OPINIONS. As if these blog opinions affected the business decisions of the organization. I mean, one guy has resorted to some of the worst name calling yet on this board. Maybe if he could get Ando’s dk out of his mouth long enough, he might actually be able to come up with intelligent posts on his own. Maybe not. *Ando, don’t take this as disrespect to you, I’ve complimented you several times on your contribution. But at least I have my own perspectives while being willing to agree with what others say if it makes sense to me. Good thing these are blogs on the computer, not discussions in person or some of the name-calling would possibly result in some serious pimp-slapping, LOL! Yeah, I’d love to see certain individuals call a room full of people a bunch of embarrassing dumb mother-*s. Ha! Not in the ATL, and not anywhere else. No class, man, no class at all.

All we can really do now as fans (for those of us who choose to) is see what the team that hits the floor can do. I look forward to seeing them play. I know they’re going to lose a lot. I don’t know how much or how much they’ll win. I would not call this a “sunny skies” attitude. I’m not happy that we didnt get better pieces in return. In fact, we technically got no pieces in return. I guess now we’ll sign Wright and get on with it. I kinda doubt that we’ll sign anyone else. As for the draft pick and what not, I for one am not going to beat my head against the wall trying to speculate where it will land for us or who we might be able to get. I think that’s wayyyy ahead of us at the moment. And I’d rather leave that to the “predictors” who just love that stuff anyway. I’d rather not even think about that evil until the time comes next year. In the meantime, let’s hope JJ stays healthy throughout the World Championships and Woody and the rest of the crew comes in to training camp with a serious chip on their shoulders and a determined work ethic. They should…nobody’s going to give them anything and most think they’re going to stink up the league, including many of the “fans.” That would make me want to work extra hard.

Clyde, surely you already know this, but trading Al before the deadline last year is not related to us getting Marcus Williams. We could have gotten him anyway, as we had the #5 pick. That was all Billy, my man. We could have had anybody that wasn’t picked 1-4. But we got Shelden. I know you liked Williams. And I can’t blame that on anybody but Billy. I still hope that Shelden produces something good for us, but you never know. For all of you that would jump my case, that’s just me hoping we get something good out of him because we have him now and there’s nothing to be done about it.

By billy

August 23, 2006 01:11 AM | Link to this

Liked this POSITIVE post from the realgm board:

Finally its done, BK has managed to save the ATL Hawks $10M, he tried valiantly for $13M, but eventually settled for a $10M windfall and 2007 1st rd. pick for the pawning of Al Harrington.

Al is definitely worth a 1st rd pick but his legs are dead and his knees balky. His high turnover ratio is a rally killer, but he still can score inside and out, but he tries to do too much and usually turns it over.

On a bad Hawks team he may have put up 18/7 but his 06-07 numbers will be significantly less, which will help his overall play, b/c he wont have to handle the ball as much, think 12/5.

Al is a great locker room guy but he’s injury prone and cant/ wont go 82 games, his knees are gone and he no longer dunks with the authority he had early in his career. Dunking is not everything but finishing is and the Al we saw late couldnt finish and relied on his outside shot to our detriment.

By mykhalc

August 23, 2006 01:16 AM | Link to this

Clyde???? HUH????

By michael m.

August 23, 2006 05:44 AM | Link to this

ando, you seriously undervalue childress. when you throw out fantasyesque trades such as what you proposed, you sound like a 12 year old. hold your horses for a second and see what he can provide as a sixth man. he’s also a good, smart kid off the court.

totally agree with you regarding bk’s willingness to throw in the 2007 pick with such minimal protection. like you, i was concerned with it from the moment i heard about it. i agreed with belkin’s stance on the matter, though not with the way he ended up handling it. losing that pick worried me then, still does now. after phx asked for two number ones, he supposedly came back at them with diaw and the 2006 laker #1 pick. when they still insisted on 2 #1’s, we should have balked. but if they decided to go ahead with it, at the very least you make the thing fully lotto protected for 2007. especially when you consider we were still throwing in diaw. at the very least, i would have loved for him to keep the option of trading him another 2007 first that we acquired in the (likely) event that we didn’t make the playoffs and thus prevented phx from getting our pick in 2007. whatever colangelo threw out as impt. to phx in the trade, bk should have had a counter. i know my mind thinks of all the options, like a game of chess. doesn’t seem like bk’s mind works that way, at least not in this instance. truly, this was one of bk’s biggest blunders. he didn’t protect himself or, more importantly, our franchise. regardless of the newbie owners, he should have known better. i can’t disagree with you there ando.

By G-Money

August 23, 2006 06:43 AM | Link to this

I am truly amazed at the depth of staff some seem to have on this blog. Independently wealthy I presume to have your own guys be able to sit inside countless gyms and clearly observe and evaluate talent on both the collegiate and at the high school levels as it relates to the needs of the Hawks. I’m also sure that you take other colunists views with a grain of salt quite like our own Mark Bradley so that you can make your own opinions based on the realities as any other professional basketball organization would.

In reality, few know how either the draft is going to unfold, what the status of “a” potential draftee is going to be or where you’re going to be drafting even a year in advance. I’d like to see the prognosticator who can do that. Thus, all this BS about what is going to happen and who’s going to be available is a crap shoot and as great basketball minds you all know that. It sounds great rhetorically speaking but either we enjoy reading and writing reality based fiction or the GBI didn’t quite get all the meth in the last bust.

We all agree that Sheldon went way too high. We all agree that we overpaid for JJ. In fact, I believe that nearly everyone agreed that no one of quality was going to come to the Hawks at that time unless they were overpaid and the deal padded. Guess what, you and everyone else was right. Anyone who thinks that any of these so called “big names” would come to the Hawks given the weak foundation that the team had at that time is truly on the crack pipe. The best the Hawks can do even now is attract decent role players. We’ve already got those (and hopefully a couple of diamonds in the rough). You know it. Few players already on the rise in their right minds would risk their upside potential on a rebuild!! This constant rehash of the JJ trade is extremely exhausting and such a waste of time. Let’s talk about the entire landscape not just the plot of land that some tend to constantly squat on.

If you have a new point, please make it. Those who try to be conscientious and read all of the bloggers comments would really appreciate not having to wade through line after line of redundancy looking for something worthy to ponder.

In the end, I agree with Jim. You can’t look at individual moves and evaluate them as if they were the only moves made in an off-season. When you think about what BK is doing, it is consistent with a plan that allows youth to develop without breaking the bank. I don’t hear anyone arguing that the picks on the team today are “busts”. So what’s wrong with allowing them to develop (and I can’t understand how they develop without playing) while BK gives ownership some money back and gives fans a competitive team that is now a few games away from the playoffs, that now becomes attractive to a “named” player who can in fact impact a team in year one. Do you really believe that Bargnani is going to impact the Raptors in any significant way this year? Do you think that Bogut will actually match LeBron (both are #1’s)?? Very rarely have there been drafts where more than 3 players really light up the NBA for years to come. Getting a top 3 pick is a total crap shoot as well. Please! Just as there are different roads that lead to Philips Arena, there are different roads that lead to a winning team. I’m not on BK’s jock because I totally disagree with Sheldon at 5 and disagreed with the JChill pick but overall the picks have been sound if not exciting. It’s time to take a sound team and put it on the floor. The Hawks haven’t had that for a number of years. Let’s just do the d* thing.

By Samuel

August 23, 2006 06:50 AM | Link to this

Team USA update:

Hey these are great games for about a quarter. Italy is hanging tough but again wave after wave should wear them down. I’m not sure how deep the Top Teams are. If they can’t go more than 7 or 8 then team USA should win this thing. They got too many players.

Hey this Mordentee guy #9 for Italy is a serious player. About 6-7 or 6-8 2guard who can fill it up and play good defense to boot. Somebody ought to pick him up. If they haven’t already done it.

Hey if yall get a chance, check out the interview with Shaq on NBA.com. He’s the man. Will make a great owner one day. Any way we can get him here?

By newkid

August 23, 2006 09:18 AM | Link to this

MBATL, I too wondered what’s meant by ‘lottery protected’ in this instance. Here’s an excerpt from an Indy paper that might help:

“The draft pick is lottery-protected through the top 10 picks next season and through higher picks in subsequent years.”

Sorry for the delay in responding to your post.

By Astro Joe

August 23, 2006 09:18 AM | Link to this

Ando, thanks for calling me a liar. Please let me know if you are the author of the following from late July:

Enter Atlanta. I’ll say this again, since you probably haven’t heard the story, but I attended a “town hall” meeting with another blogger who is a season ticket holder. In my usual direct fashion, I engaged one of the owners in a blunt conversation about choices and the direction of the franchise. Some folks here know his name, but I’ll refrain from reiterating it out of an effort to not put him on the spot, as he can confirm this conversation. I told said owner that they got their shorts bluffed off on the JJ deal, because Phoenix wasn’t going to match. In an admission that caught both of us by utter surprise, he agreed with my contention, and indicated that when the other owners realized it was a place that Belkin was going to make a big stand, they decided to use the cost we were paying as leverage to sever the partnership. He said it was too much to pay for JJ, but a price well worth booting Belkin. They knew Belkin would veto, which was his technical right as the teams’ governer (majority rules do not apply in this instance, as the governer has sole discretion to represent the teams’ interests in such matters) and they took the opportunity to stand together as a group and ask Daddy Stern to address an irreparable rift in their partnership. It was a palace coup, which I never felt I had enough insight into to take sides. But that’s pretty much how it went down.

He said it was too much to pay for JJ, but a price well worth booting Belkin. He said it was too much to pay for JJ, but a price well worth booting Belkin. He said it was too much to pay for JJ, but a price well worth booting Belkin.

—- end of Ando post —-

The price was agreed to by the palace coup army. The deal was only consummated after Stern granted NBA Governor authority to Gearon. We have seen in the past 5 days the power of an owner in forcing for the renegotiation of a deal. They essentially agreed to pay a premium for JJ to initiate the booting of Belkin.

If you are not the author of this, then I was obviously referring to the wrong HB Ando.

By A Thinking Fan

August 23, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

Number 2 pick in the nba draft is having surgery - TG we didn’t draft him…

By Astro Joe

August 23, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

I heard Bernie Mullen this morning on 680 (I missed BK on 790). Bernie was spinning like Lance Armstrong. He said that there were no deals in February that were particularly attractive to the team, just underperforming, overpaid players. He said that the owners are not being cheap, they just don’t want any bad contracts for marginal players. And he claimed that the market conditions did not allow them to get anything more for Al than a protected draft pick. he again reiterated that Iverson would have likely impeded the progress of the younger players while not assuring the team would make the playoffs. And he expects the team to win in the mid-30s next season. (For Thrashers fans, he said the owners expect a home seeding in the playoffs and a deep run into the post season for that franchise).

Doc, I find it hard to believe that the Hawks could not have acquired an expiring contract and a draft pick in February for Al. Let’s say Nene and a pick. Since we probably would have stayed away from resigning Nene to an obscene $60M contract, we could have attempted to acquire more picks in a S&T. But since most teams are at or over the cap, I guess we would have been stuck in the same situation of needing either a trade exception or yet another expiring contract to couple with picks. So maybe, this really couldn’t have been much better, as long as the owners were determined to not take back salaries. At best, we would have been in a never-ending chase of expiring contracts at every major trade/free agent interval.

For all the BK bashing, at the end of the day, he would have reduced payroll by about $4M (excluding the organic growth of salaries) while improving the team. While that won’t earn him any points in blog world, I bet his bosses are feeling better about signing his paycheck this month.

By newkid

August 23, 2006 10:37 AM | Link to this

Joe, here’s a piece on BK’s interview on 790 this morning.

BK on 790 @9:00 AM

His position is that the Harrington money was used to sign Speedy & Lo. These are two players he belives the Hawks needed.

The skills that Al brings to the team are (or could be)replicated by Josh and MW. His feeling is that the 3 can be handled by Josh S, MW and at times Josh C, The 4 can be played by SW and Josh S.

He reports that the first three games at the RMR reflected Sheldon’s early anxiety. He’s still expecting him to step up and play serious minutes.

Finally, BK indicated that by substituting Speedy & Lo for Al, he still has about 8M that MIGHT be used later in the year to improve the team.

By Astro Joe

August 23, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

newkid, thanks. Interesting that both BK and Bernie talked about Lorenzen Wright yet I haven’t seen a formal announcement yet. I heard JJ on the Dimino show a few minutes ago. I think having a guy who is spending so much off-court time with the premier players in the NBA could be enormously beneficial in the future. Not only is he playing with these guys (and showing his complete and unselfish game) but he is also eating and traveling and socializing with the NBA elite. JJ + Atlanta + cash might be a powerful combination during future free agent discussions (assuming we have owners willing to pay).

By newkid

August 23, 2006 11:24 AM | Link to this

Doc, team salary last year (05/06) was approximately $36.6 million. With current roster the 06/07 team salary (including signing of Lo Wright) will be approximately $44 million. FYI 04/05 was $40.6 mil; 03/04 was $63.5 mil; and 02/03 was $56.4 mil.

By newkid

August 23, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

I agree Joe, it seems clear, doesn’t it, that JJ’s an asset that can be used to help attract FA’s to the team; and so is the vibrancy of the metro Atlanta region. Lots of extremely exciting things going in the region, and clearly many among the national sports and entertainment set have targeted the ATL as a place to own 1st, 2nd, or 3rd homes. I’m sure you’ll agree that what’s equally clear (witness Al’s comments about his desire to be a part of a winner) is a need to see a demonstrated commitment - by team owners - to building a quality product capable of competing - and winning - on a consistent basis. I’d love to be a nearby ‘fly on the wall’ while JJ has conversations with his Team USA colleagues about the extent to which they see a commitment by the AS to putting that sort of product on the court. IMO Mr. Blank has done a tremendous job of demonstrating an ownership committed to quality (both on and off the playing surface), and I think it’s clear the players league-wide who might have once dreaded playing for the old Falcons are now clamouring for the opportunity to be a part of the Blank-led Falcons and an emerging world class metropolis. A franchise that in the recent past used to make us cringe with embarrassment, now - under insightful, committed, and financially capable ownership - fills us with pride and this pride reflects itself in the manner in which we support the product.

Whether correct or not, the perception at home and across the nation is that current Hawks ownership is not at all committed to excellence. Some view that as an artifact of the rather strange and disfunctional ownership ‘marriage’, others may attribute it to incompetence and/or financial insolvency. Not sure how important it is who and/or what is the correct assessment of why this lack of commitment exists. It hardly matters, does it? What’s important is that the product is suffering BADLY. Clearly Al was embarrassed to be associated with the product; it’s probably also an embarrassement to JJ, Josh Smith, and the other players who work so hard to elevate their performances to the highest level so as to compete with pride against their peers. These players have choices as they approach the ends of their contracts. So do their peers. Seems clear that the elite among them will choose to take their talents elsewhere. This compromises our ability to grow a quality product.

We fans are surely embarrassed. We have choices as well, and it seems we’ve been choosing to not support this lack of commitment.

I suspect the league is equally embarrassed. What can it do? Maybe all it can do is hope that weaker ownership is driven by financial circumstances to eventually giving way to someone of Mr. Blank’s capabilities and commitment; maybe it can do something to ‘encourage’ this eventuality. Maybe Sekou can tell us what it can do.

But what of the owners? What can they do? Maybe only their accountants and the courts know.

By Steve B.

August 23, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Newkid I agree with you on most of your points, but not Al. We as fans are embarrased with the way the A.S. and Mr. Belkin have handled them selves. I know Stern who for the most part has stood for the right image, is embarrassed. But Al, I think is more a case of spilt milk. The guy wanted to get paid, he didn’t care who it came from. He can Bch about the HAWKS but it was Ind who screwed him. He can say he’s worth more than A pick after he starts playing some kind of D.Like some one posted earlier Golden State give me a brake. From every thing I’ve hear it’s protected thru the top 10 this year. And Ind want be that much better than the Hawks so keep Bching Al. Expect the pick to fall in that 11 to 16 range.I suggested a long time ago that Belkin and the A.S. war is nothing more than a glorified p** contest. Neither side is telling the entire truth and neither side is worthy of being awarded the franchise. I can’t belive Stern has stood aside this long without getting directly involved. Stern should (Flash will not beleive I said this)hope Belkin wins in court. Don’t worry I’m going to clean this up. Since other owner’s have to vote on change of ownership and Stern has lots of pull he should let it be known to Belkin he won’t be voted in, that way A.S. and Belkin are forced to sell. Their will be no shortage of takers since Sean Combs has let it be known he wants a basket ball team in one of the city’s he lives in. You also have David McBride(not sure if he’s better than Belkin).

By MBATL

August 23, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

Newkid, thanks for your reply. And my apologies for the multiple posts of the same question … someone is messing with me (probably from over on the Braves blog, where I’m a regular). I generally just read on this blog…

By Dale

August 23, 2006 04:20 PM | Link to this

It’s great to see some of you like Steve B. wake-up. This organization is the worst in all of professional sports. You dumb, idiots that keep talking about keeping payroll low are just unbelievable. The Spirit Group has no problem spending money on the Thrashers, they have no problem spending money on the Hawks. The only problem has been the absolute incompetence when it comes to talent evaulation, which has caused this mess we call the Atlanta Hawks.

I wouldn’t care what our payroll was, if we were in the playoffs! You think the Heat fans are complaing about being over the salary cap? What about the Mavericks, or the Spurs or the Pistons, or the 13 teams that made the playoffs last year.

Are the Hawks wanting to win or save cap space. I don’t believe there was a mad rush to by season tickets after they announced the Harrington deal.

By Steve B.

August 23, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

Dale what are you talking about “wake up”. If you want to go back and read blogs you will notice the whole time Falsh and I argued ovr Belkin My argument wasn’t in favor of A.S. but rather I didn’t like the defense of Belkin with people thinking he didn’t have a huge part in this whole mess. My defense of BK will be their untill he dosn’t have his hands tied with the money problems of the HAWKS( I still hate the Sheldon pick). I even suggested mounths ago Diddy should by the team. So what exactly are you talking about. Dude you can’t fourm an opion on what you think I’m saying if you don’t read my post. Even as bad as they are the Atl ownership isn’t the worst that would belong to the other 2 teams Al wanted to play for, Ny ang G.S. Payrol dose matter theirs no point in having a high payroll to win 3 or 4 more games. I wish the A.S. or Belkin for that matter where willing to take back saleryfor Al but they were not willing. Getting a mid-round pick isn’t bad considering we will win more games without Al than did with him. Yes I wish some one else would by the team and run things the way I won’t them ran(so dose every other regular Ando,Flash,Astro,Honest,doc,Bp ect.).But since I don’t have the money to buy the HAWKS, I choose to stay positive and look at it as is without adding a bunch of what if’s.

By doc

August 23, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

newkid, not dissing your numbers but what are your sources for the salaries. by a quick head check assuming the salaries of the young guys havent gone up significantly i see the reduction of jj by 10 mil, the loss of al representing about 8 mil. the addition of lo at 3 mil loss of edwards at 1 mil add in speedy at 6 mil and it is hard to see how the teams salary structure increased by 8 mil since in actual dollars it looks to have been reduced by about 6- 8 mil? minimum salary cap is 39 mil this year max at about 53 mil from what i read.

did you kind of choke when you saw the numbers that billy had to deal with when he came here? i had seen them before and might have brought it to the liars table to point out the sorry situation that the spirit and billy had to overcome. kasten and babcock sure laid the green out there for such a terrible product.

newkid, the league is not embarassed as they watched for years as similar situation in the clippers and hornets both in charlotte and n.o. everyone is getting their change.

joe, it seems you talked yourself out of the relevance to trying to have moved folks last year for al, so give clyde back the t shirt you got from him last night. :-) i think last year was an unusual year when many owners finally came to grips with how they had overspent for nothing to show for it, evidenced by only five real contenders. a lot of dollars to be a pretender. not many deals went down as very few teams tried to make deals. all you had to do was watch how slowly the artest thing went, yeah he is an idiot or a head case but he was easily one of the top 15 players in the league and the pacers got absolutely nothing for him, NOTHING. peja is gone and if i remember no draft pick came with it, essentially a borrowed player to let grainger and the guy who i cant spell try to make it in the league. now they are going fast ball to get some “excitement” in the game. they speak of changing their philosophy, just think al and his knees will slow things down.

By clyde

August 23, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Here is our starting lineup.

pg-speedy sg-jj sf-marvin pf-Jsmooth c-zaza

Someone please for the love of God tell me how in the world will we win 30 games this year. This team is young and unexperienced. We might see a winning season 3 years down the line but hopefully Billy will be gone by then. We need something to get excited about now.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By clyde

August 23, 2006 04:41 PM | Link to this

Here is our starting lineup.

pg-speedy sg-jj sf-marvin pf-Jsmooth c-zaza

Someone please for the love of God tell me how in the world will we win 30 games this year. This team is young and unexperienced. We might see a winning season 3 years down the line but hopefully Billy will be gone by then. We need something to get excited about now.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Steve B.

August 23, 2006 04:44 PM | Link to this

One more thing, to all the people who think Bk should be fired and he’s done the worst job in the NBA. Who among you realy think BK is not hand-cuffed money wise? If you have any proof or even just A very good opion on how it dosn’t effect his job please tell me?

By Astro Joe

August 23, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

Doc, don’t worry, I never contemplated a t-shirt purchase. I thought for a moment that we could have likely picked up several picks by wheeling and dealing expiring contracts. But that keeps a revolving door in the locker room and that is not productive for a young franchise. So yes, I did talk (think) myself out of my initial position. But it never had me purchasing a t-shirt. Maybe a drink holder, but not a t-shirt.

Clyde, at some point, you have to let young guys develop. If Marvin and Smith are not the real deal, we will see that this season. If they are, then 35 wins are well within reach. But you can’t give draft picks one year and then kick them to the curb. We have a good mix of young and old, role players and stars in the making. Every position has been upgraded from last year, either through a free agent signing, draft or organically. I truly believe that Smith, even as the latest hybrid SF/PF, will be better all around than Al was last year. We have plenty of offensive fire power. Clutch shooters. Low post defenders. Seasoned ball handlers. Willing bangers. And plenty of athleticism. Playoffs? Puh-leeze. But 36-38 wins? Yeah, that sounds about right.

By dale

August 23, 2006 05:10 PM | Link to this

Steve, if BK is handcuffed money-wise, why dosen’t he do himself and the Hawks fans a favor and QUIT!!!!!!!
Dude positive went out the door 5 years ago! Clyde is right, this team will not win 30 games this year!
You can’t deny the facts; going into the off season we had the 5th pick in the draft and more money to spend under the cap than any team except for Chicago, Charlotte and Toronto. Since the the ownership screwed that up, you candy*sses have resorted to talk about all the money we saved to make yourselves feel good. THAT’S CALLED DENIAL!!

Do you realize how stupid some of you look, I’m mean your saying, “I know we have lost 200 games in the last 3 years, we have 3000 fans at our home games, our GM is a jerk, our owners are take each other to court, our 1st round draft pick next year belongs to the Suns, we didn’t draft Chris Paul, we traded away to draft picks and the NBA most improved player for a unrestricted free and then signed him for the max, we still have no true point guard nor center, we have no chance at making the playoffs, but hey no problem at least were under the salary cap!”

By newkid

August 23, 2006 05:35 PM | Link to this

doc, the clearing of salary was from ‘03 to ‘06 (i.e., from $63+ mil to $36+ mil.) was indeed impressive, and was probably a prudent first step in assembling the necessary pieces of the puzzle. I’m sure you and I are among a large group of others who are eager to see the other puzzle pieces identified, gathered, and successfully integrated before there is a complete implosion. Here’s one of the links I used in gathering the team salary data:

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2005-06

Hope this helps.

By Steve B.

August 23, 2006 05:37 PM | Link to this

Dale you list more incorrect things than any one else, how can you call some one stupid. Last week I helped you when you didn’t know your contract years or money and you continue to insult other people, When your knowledge is questionable. Why should BK quit, this ownership dispute will be over sooner or later. If the A.S. wins he’ll get to show what he can realy do without salery restaints, if Belkin wins he get fired and get all the money owed to him. A smart man would know BK would be crazy to quit. Next as much as I hate the Sheldon pick I’ll defend it like this. You don’t think other owners and GM’s know the HAWKS problems? You don’t think they knew the HAWKS had to go big even if it ment reaching? You don’t think they knew the HAWKS couldn’t spend big money on a big in free-agency? If I’m the GM of another team why do I help the HAWKS trade down if I know a better player will fall to me because they have to go big? Who are you calling stupid Bk or the dumb GM that would trade up when the player he trades up for will fall to him anyway? The other GM will spend less money in short term and not have to part with any assest to move up. Dale get it together dude, I love your passion but speaking out of anger without taking it all in first is well, stupid.

By HB Ando

August 23, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

Joe,

“We don’t know. But according to you, there was an ulterior motive associated with the JJ transaction that was initiated by the non-Belkin owners of the Spirit. So with that in mind, what would you have had BK do differently?”

and

“He said it was too much to pay for JJ, but a price well worth booting Belkin.”

The difference is that you quote me as saying they “initiated” that transaction to boot Belkin. But that’s not what I said. I’ve said on several occassions that my interpretation of what I was told was that the divide amongst the owners was both a “last straw”, as well as an opportunity to seek a divorce of the partnership. Yet here you are, once again, trying to undermine my credibility by lying about my statements and my opinions. And you know damn well that I clarified that for you and the others on multiple occassions immediately afterwards. I’ve also asked you not to misrepresent my opinions about a half-dozen times. I’m just sick of it. When a person as intelligent as you knowingly misrepresents someone else’s opinion, then they are engaged in lying. You are stating something you know to be inaccurate. Thus, you are a liar.

Your statement, “They essentially agreed to pay a premium for JJ to initiate the booting of Belkin.” is not at all what I believe, and is yours alone.

I also further went on, the next day, to highlight that my relating of the story was obviously a paraphrasing.

If you’re angry I called you a liar, you should consider how frustrating it is to be lied about. I try not to reconstruct anyone else’s opinion for them. Certainly, not in an effort to strengthen my own. When it comes to me, you’re the king of the low blow. So I’m just returning in kind what has become, quite obviously, a personal agenda.

You have 3 options from here: you can ignore repsonding to my posts, you can respond without stooping to twisting my opinions in a self-serving fashion, or you can continue to lie about my opinions and beliefs and be called out for it.

Suit yourself.

By newkid

August 23, 2006 05:53 PM | Link to this

doc, here’s a link that’ll get you to my estimate of 06/07 team salary.

http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/atlanta.htm

If you add Shelden’s and Lo Wright’s salaries to the $38.4 mil you see here, you’ll get to just under $44 mil.

By doc

August 23, 2006 06:01 PM | Link to this

thanks newkid. like it when someone takes the time to get some info together. does this imply the sheldon gets 2.5 mil this year?

By ken strickland

August 23, 2006 10:51 PM | Link to this

ASTRO JOE, the thing that needs to develop above all else is CLYDE. He’s like a person that has eaten too many beans, he keeps repeating himself with the same of stinking crap. DALE, you are taking this trade, and seemingly everything else, too seriously. You are not qualified to call anyone stupid. It is disrespectful and it reflects a complete lack of maturity and common sense on your part. The trade is done and now it is time for serious open minded fans to prepare for the upcoming season. Our team is set and it doesn’t have any of the fantasy players, preferred by so many of you, such as Paul, Magloire, Iverson, Nene, etc. So let’s stop all of the name calling insults, unsubstantiated projections and assumptions and start offering our support, ok. GO HAWKS!!!!!

By Clyde

August 23, 2006 11:04 PM | Link to this

Ken Strickland:

I keep repeating the same ole thing because the Hawks keep doing the same ole thing. Giving away players. Stupid trades. Dumb draft picks. We won 26 games last year and over the summer we made no significant additions to make me think we will win 27 this year. Bump supporting Billy. I don’t support failure.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Clyde

August 23, 2006 11:15 PM | Link to this

We traded Al Harrington and John Edwards for a draft pick. This pick will probably be between 15-23. Now go to nbadraft.net and tell me if any of the players on their mock draft measures up to what we gave away.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Jim

August 23, 2006 11:21 PM | Link to this

Clyde, we won’t win 27 ??? You mean Speedy, Lorenzen and sheldon aren’t Better than harrington, Edwards and Dante Smith? Even the Hawks and Bk’s worst critic wouldn’t make that claim. I’d say thats AT LEAST a 5 game improvement alone. Granted I’m pulling #’s out my a$$, but thats my opinion. Also, while its certainly not guaranteed, No one can reasonably say that youngsters like Smoove, Childress, Marvin, Stoudamire, and Zaza arent on the upswing. Players that are 19-22 years old tend to get better with experience. If we fire Billy and Woody, fine with me. But at least acknowledge that this team is much better positioned to win than last year.

By reese

August 24, 2006 12:19 AM | Link to this

I’ll start by saying that I am disappointed with the acquisition of only a first round draft pick for harrington. I listened to Bernie and I listened to BK on the radio. Each, were adamant that only acquiring a draft pick was not due to financial constraints, but due to not wanting to take back a player with a bad salary.

Bernie can see the current team, after the Wright signing, winning in the 30s. Billy, says that it is too early to tell and wants to see how they play together. But, he can see how some would not be happy with what has transpired.

Now, I’ll let the following quote from Al Harrington represent what I feel.

“Money is good and all the stuff that comes along with it is fine, but I want to be back in the playoffs and back on national TV and back with a franchise that wins basketball games,” Harrington told The Indianapolis Star. “I missed that the last two years, and now I’m going back to what I know.”

In the 13 years that Pete Babcock and Stan (deferred contract) Kasten ran the hawks, I liked some of the moves and I did not like some of the moves. In the 3 years that BK has been here I like some of the move and I don’t like some of the moves. But, with the signing of Lorenzen Wright, I see BK repeating a bad move that Pete Babcock made. This does not suprise me because I see it in the corporate world all the time. A new Pres, VP, GM or any other management type will come in to replace someone. Give them enough time and they will eventually repeat the mistakes of their predecessors, hire their friends and get an even bigger exit package.

I guess we’ll know 3 things 10 years from now; who is the owner of the hawks, who are some more of BK’s friends and what type of exit package did BK get.

By reese

August 24, 2006 12:48 AM | Link to this

By the way, I too watched the US against Italy and was surprised when they were down by 11 points. Too many missed freethrows and missed jumpers. Coach K has started to shorten his rotation of players and Joe Johnson and Kirk Heinrick will start to see less playing time. In order for these two to keep getting playing time, they are going to have to have greater intensity and effectiveness on both the offensive and defensive ends.

Currently, only Anthony and Wade are demonstrating that they can keep up the intensity on both the offensive and defensive ends. Lebron is not as effective because he is playing out of position. Elton Brand is working his butt off, but he is too short to cover the taller European Players. However, the guards and forwards are helping out quite a bit. Wade is even blocking shots.

I was also surprised by the following comment by Dwight Howard. Well, the team we played – Italy – they went small. They had a lot of small guys and they were trying to spread the floor. It wasn’t really a game for a big guy. Coach put a small lineup in and we played better.

He should have read the following from an Olajuwon article. *Olajuwon hears the talk about the NBA being guard-oriented in the 21st century, that big men are being de-emphasized, even phased out, and he shakes his head.

“For a big man who is just big, maybe,” he said. “But not if you play with speed, with agility. It will always be a big man’s game if the big man plays the right way. On defense, the big man can rebound and block shots. On offense, he draws double-teams and creates opportunities. He can add so much, make it easier for the entire team.”*

The games are exciting.

By ray

August 24, 2006 01:22 AM | Link to this

Well, an interesting article by Tim Tucker. I’d say that Gearon Jr.’s comments are pretty self-explanatory according to the article. Obviously the owners, particularly the current team’s NBA governor, didn’t like the deals offered to them (where in-coming players were involved anyway) and preferred the draft pick. Seems to me that this sheds a little more light on the ownership/gm decision making process and the level of involvement of each party.

Unless of course, you think the author and/or Gearon was simply lying.

I guess we won’t get to read anymore ” I attended a town hall meeting…” stories. LOl! Maybe I should let that one alone…(muffled chuckle).

You know, as much as Harrington has a legit beef about winning, I feel like he was also shooting off at the mouth. He was a good guy on and off the court. And as we all know, this organization has not yet shown an obvious committment to winning. Nor can it be proven (despite what the owners say) until winning results appear. But consider this: if Harrington was all about winning, as his big mouth says, why did he leave a winning team in Indiana? Two reasons: money (although Atlanta didn’t exactly make him top tier rich) and a chance to start, be team captain, etc. Now he’s yacking about winning. Look, this was never the guy and never will be the guy to build around, in my opinion. Yeah, I know, nice of me to make such bold statements now that he’s been moved. But this leads up to something. As some others have said, the younger guys we have playing the positions Al played now have the opportunity to get the job done. Or not. The owners have not given substantial hope or reason to the fans, and as I’ve said before, you can’t see those results right away anyhow. What we can see, however, is how the coach directs and how the team plays. Well, once they start playing, anyway. It’s what these guys do on and off the court (especially on the court) that will change things. As of right now, it is foolish to expect more or better of ownership and management. They’ve played their hand and now have pretty much told us how it’s going to be. That part is over with. The focus turns to the coaches (head coach in particular) and the players. What matters now is what Woody is able to do with this team. What the players are willing to do to improve and to win. How they mesh. With Harrington gone, I expect to see some heated competition and inspired play in the frontcourt. Smith especially has a chance to show why Harrington was let go. So does Williams. Childress will have more minutes and may turn out better than many expect. I expect to see Woody maintaining a defensive discipline and playing the guys who take to it and maintain it themselves. If they swarm, they’ll cause all kinds of problems, which means turnovers, which means fast break points. And we know that we’ve got guys who can kill teams on the break. It worked in Chicago with basically a smaller backcourt and a frontcourt that was really no bigger than ours (the only tall guy was Chandler, and he’s skinny). The coach has to demand it and the players have to live it. This is where it starts. As for replacing Harrington’s scoring, that is a team effort, not the ultimate responsibility of one or two individuals. Easier said than done, but if the average scoring output of a few individuals increases enough, then it’s covered. However, what’s more important to me is the defensive and rebounding stats. I don’t think making up for 6.9 rebounds a game will be so difficult. Not with increased playing time for the Williams and Smith (Childress boards fairly well too) and the addition of Shelden and Wright. With defense, it’s not always the block or any other definitive defensive stat. The difference maker is the turnover, whether it be by steal, ball forced out of bounds or thrown away, shot clock violation, etc. A turnover is a turnover. Also, the hustle. Hustle enough and you will eventually begin to get the ball more and help the turnover ratio. Another huge difference maker is shot contention. Again, while the block is a solid stat, a contended shot is still not an easy shot and helps the likelihood of the shot becoming a miss rather than a make. This is often the difference between the proverbial one-dimensional shot-blocker and the solid defender. The defender positions himself well and occupies as much of the space his opponent is not using and is attempting to use. He may not get the block or the steal (or he might), but he can deny the opponent his comfort zone. He can deny the inlet pass and the dribble drive, amongst other things. This is what Woody must teach his troops and what they must buy into and apply to their games. With the guys we have, there’s no physical evidence that it can’t be done. These guys are long and athletic (no I won’t give BK credit for it if they succeed, either) It’s all mental, all a matter of application. This has everything to do with the coach-player relationship and/or abilities and nothing to do with the GM. You can pick ‘em but you can’t make ‘em play. Now we get to see if they can play

By Sekou K. Smith

August 24, 2006 07:01 AM | Link to this

I’m going to stick my nose in here and correct one thing that’s been listed wrong here and other places. Harrington spoke to the AJC and not the Indianapolis Star. Those comments he made were to the AJC. The folks in the Indianapolis media won’t speak to Al until this morning, when his press conference is held. They’ve gotten all of their stuff from him courtesy of the AJC. And for anyone to quote him any other way is wrong.

As for what he said, it’s his opinion. Last time I checked he had a right to have one. Just like the opinions of others that a draft pick in exchange for his services is adequate compensation. I feel like this; if I’m trading an asset I want a tangible asset in return. And a draft pick doesn’t help me win any games this season. I can’t count on a draft pick for anything that helps me right now. So it really boils down to one’s own philosophy for building a team.

And as for the explanations given for not wanting to take on a bad salary and other teams wanting to dump salaries for Harrington, understand that everybody who was interested in sending the Hawks a player for Harrington was going to have to pay Harrington’s salary. Harrington wasn’t going anywhere for free.

This idea that someone was dumping something on the Hawks is hilarious. Golden State wanted to send Troy Murphy here and pay Harrington the same salary they were paying Murphy. They weren’t “dumping” anything, they were attempting to trade for a more versatile player they felt could help their team. And usually when you do that, the other team expects a comparable talent in return.

By mountain_jim

August 24, 2006 08:08 AM | Link to this

I read BK’s comments and I read the Tim Tucker article relating ownership’s spin - I mean views about all this..

I guess in a way that article, and Mark’s opinion piece, attempts to represent what I have been asking for in this blog, which is for ajc to address this trade and this ownership so the fans can decide if/how much we will invest in seeing the team or not.

Like Sekou said above, I wanted something for Al that could help the team, on the court, this year. I seriously doubt that this was all about cap flexibility and no worthy player offers were out there but hey it’s their team, and I can’t prove otherwise.

Between Mark’s (continual) trashing of the Hawks and Tim’s stenography for the ownership and BK’s spin on things, I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between, closer to Sekou’s (subtlely understated) take on things.

Only shooting for wins in the 30’s this year validates what Al said, that and this trade does not sound like a commitment to winning to me either. It appears to be more about trying to run the team this year as close to the league financial minumum as possible, at least until ownership issues are resolved. BK is doing a pretty good job at building a team on the cheap, I will say.

Well we have our Hawks team for the start of the season, let’s toss up the jump ball and see how they do.

By doc

August 24, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

waited a while to say it, slept on it as well. think the tucker article was very soft. didnt ask the relevant questions like:

where is the budget this year whereas last year there was a ceiling;

or why wasnt there a push to get somehthing in return for al to make the team competieive this year;

maybe, if there wasnt a ceiling then why didnt the team look at geting a foye or a roy to beef up the backcourt while building for the future and then gettting 2 bigs in free agency;

another, if there was no ceiling on the budget then wouldnt there have been room for getting two bigs a well thought of draft pick and still getting a speedy even if they were to get an expiring contract for al;

could we expect a question like, it seems like because of the ceiling you were only able to negotiate with one franchise limiting your options and leverage and didnt it hurt you in the end:

or finally, you mean there has been only one big in the nba that you could get that wasnt overpriced, are you then telling us that your organization is then the smartest when it comes to getting value for its players contracts?

guys, which questions do you think were ommitted?

seems like an article that was meant more to appease the ticket buying fan who wants to think that this is a progressive organization rather than an article that was meant to explore or heaven forbid expose the teams real intent. sekou, i would hope you would have had some more basketball questions in there if given the oportunity to chat with one of the owners. wont expect you to comment on this one my friend.

By doc

August 24, 2006 08:36 AM | Link to this

one more thing if this organization isnt asking these types of questions internally or has no one willing to ask these questions then it is a true losing franchise.

mj you were posting as i wrote but similar ideas only in a different format. good comments.

clyde, i understand your frustrations with certain specifics i have had then as well but a winning organization starts at the top and billy just aint the ones who need to be questioned or heat placed upon if it really is going to be changed. they are the culture and set the expectations of the organization. i hope you will fianally understand my point to change the promotion if you really want change.

with that said under the circumstances still think with the hand dealt bk has gotten a competitive team at bargain basement prices with only one contract larger than 6 mil for this year. we will see how that translates into wins.

al should have kept his mouth shut, he had handled himself well throughout but blew it for his comments. let his actions on the court speak for him. billy didnt set the market for his services and arn was able to show him that after he ired his agent but his own inability to deliver when the game was on the line was the problem. we all saw him fumble away oportunities at the end of too many games and coach brown said it eloquently that al sometimes tended to take the easy outside shot at the end rather than work to take it to the hole finfishing the comment with maybe we didnt put him where he needed to be on the floor (which might have meant on the bench for all i know). al will go as far a o’neal takes him, for the hawks draft pick in this draft i hope o’neal stays “relatively” healthy.

By Astro Joe

August 24, 2006 09:52 AM | Link to this

Tucker’s article was interesting. Gearon says that BK did not bring any viable options to them, yet he was aware that waht BK was being offered were bad contracts. So I guess he did have some knowledge of offers being made even if they were not officially brought before the ownership group by BK. Sounds like an owner engaged in every step of possible trade talks.

Ando, thank you for defining the rules on Sekou’s blog. Now that is arrogant. Do you think the situation played out as follows: BK presented the 2 draft picks and Diaw for JJ scenario. Belkin said no, the ‘06 pick is excessive. Gearon and crew said yes, let’s break-up the partnership. BK called Colangelo and said let’s make a deal. That’s how I see it. Either way, unless you can show me a scenario where BK somehow moved forward with the transaction without the support of Gearon and his crew, then I will continue to believe that he acted as his bosses told him to proceed. And Tucker’s article suggests that BK (much like Walsh in Indiana) is sharing updates on deals and possible deals with his bosses constantly. And the fact it was the first big splash for this ownership group, I have every certainty that BK was not operating in a vacuum with regard to acquiring a $70M player. To exclusively blame the GM for any deal is to ignore the governance process established by the NBA.

And you can call me whatever you choose. Trust me, I slept fine the past few nights. Have a good day.

By Astro Joe

August 24, 2006 10:36 AM | Link to this

I would have only asked one simple question…

You all have had to put up an $11M bond, add $12M in capital funding and court-submitted documents show that you have lost $20M since purchasing the franchises and arena. Why should fans expect that you would spend up the the salary cap now when there is no guarantee that you will retain long-term ownership of these properties?

By newkid

August 24, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

Quite an interesting phenomenon has been introducted in our world of collective communication over the past 4-5 years. It’s called ‘blogging’ (some call it ‘uploading’). Prior to blogging we were almost completely beholding to traditional media outlets for expressing our collective opinions and asking our collective questions. We were perpetual ‘downloaders’. The ability to blog has changed the communications landscape forever. What remains to be seen is how the traditional media outlets (read that AJC, et al) will respond to this new landscape. Will the well-informed and well-constructed, but sometimes difficult, questions that are posed here and elsewhere by doc, mj, and others be used by AJC reporters to construct the sort of interviews that could produce full and honest answers for the consuming public, or will we continue to see the AS and others subjected to what someone here referred to as ‘soft’ questions that make it convenient to skirt provision of really informative responses?

By Astro Joe

August 24, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

newkid and Doc, the USA Today salary database does not include the salaries for Tony Delk and Jason Collier in the 05-06 season. And while they did not finish with the team, their salaries did count against the salary cap going into the season. I believe Delk made around $3.3M and Collier would have made $1.6M (not sure if his family actually received that money or if it just counted for accounting purposes and was never paid out). I think the fair way to compare apples to apples is to look at the salary cap figues at the start of each season or at the end of each season, as opposed to comparing the end of one against the beginning of the next. In Delk’s case, I’m pretty sure that he would have been paid most or all of his guaranteed money when he was released by the Hawks.

By newkid

August 24, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Joe, sounds reasonable. Thanks

By doc

August 24, 2006 11:16 AM | Link to this

aj, the newkid started the process.

the numbers dont quite fit for what was advertised such as 20 mil for jj in 2005 but thereafter 10 mil when it was projected in the article noted by newkid that the jj contract was now a little over 12 mil. maybe sekou will give us some true facts or at least some refernces to go to that are acurate rather than speculative. still see more minuses in salary this year in comparison to last but find that we are spending more.

your figure added into the mix fits better with the 40 mil budget that the team spirit was quoted as arguing for instead of the minimum that belkin wanted. say what you want if that is what belkin wanted then to try and undo the jj thing in any fashion or form was the only way he was going to get er done to meet his financial objectives. stating he was for the trade then doing all he could to undo it to meet his own agenda is still the way i see how it went down, sometimes actions speak louder than words.

By HB Ando

August 24, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

Joe, Slept like a baby, as well. Once again, said nothing about defining rules for anybody. Asked YOU to quit misrepresenting my opinion, again. Here’s the thing: I don’t build my post, on a regular basis, on trying to undermine (the same person, day in and day out), specifically, your position. For some reason, you do. Listen to yourself, “That’s how I see it”. OK. Cool. That’s not how I see it, but I also aren’t under the mistaken impression that I can ever know the truth. But don’t make your position based on a bastardization of something I said. Please tell me how you can look into the souls of the Spirit ownership and objectify a position that what happened was a diabolical plan? And please don’t associate that baseless position on anything I said.

Your statement, “to exclusively blame the GM…..” once again misrepresents my position. I’ve said on about 1000 occassions that I don’t hold Billy solely responsible. I’ll say it again. Billy’s failings as a GM, and the Spirit’s failings as an ownership group are not mutually exclusive. AGAIN, I say, the Spirit have made his job difficult, especially in the last six months, but that does not, IN MY OPINION, eliminate all accountability for his job performance, since he has taken over the franchise. There is nothing new here, just me having to correct you, AGAIN, when you’ve taken liberties to represent my opinions for your competitive little agenda. You believe what you believe. Likewise for me. You know I’m not going to change my position. But it seems like you want to bring others over to your side of the fence, by constructing falacious representations of my thoughts. It’s just so weak and annoying and I’m asking you, AGAIN, to Just Say No. Say no to making comments like, “so it’s your opinion that, bla bla bla (insert utterly inaccurate portrayal of my opinion)”, or posting an old quote and then offering a conclusion that doesn’t, in the least, match what I actually said. Don’t you have anything better to do that worry about me?

I honestly don’t understand it. I can’t figure out why you have such a hard on for me. We all know that you and I don’t see things the same way. Most all of the regulars here seem to be in agreement that you and I have fairly credible knowledge of basketball. We disagree on points that can’t be objectified. Neither one of us is going to suddenly say to the other, “You know what, I’ve been wrong all along. Thank you for showing me the light, Joe/Ando”.

You’re opinions on the inner mechinisms of ownership, and it’s impact on Billy to do his job, are pure conspiracy theory. When they say something that supports your position, you hail it as evidence. When they say something (like finance’s aren’t having any impact on Billy’s decision making), then you call them dishonest.

All I’m requesting from you Joe, is that you stop misrepresenting my opinion as a means to argue with me or call me out in front of others. It’s like you aren’t going to be happy unless you can convince others here that I don’t know what I’m talking about. It just seems so petty for an older man like yourself to engage in a smear campaign over something so inconsiquential as Hawks’ basketball.

If you wanted to get under my skin, you’ve succeeded. I can sit here and argue the finer points of basketball-related opinions all day. But I really struggle to show up and see that you’ve built a post around misleading folks about what I believe or have said, and twisting it into something that suits your needs. Give it a rest.

OK, look: Regardless of what Gearon said, it’s clear that they are looking to limit their losses in the upcoming season. Now whether that’s because they anticipate losing the team, or because they just don’t have millions to lose (who does?), is up for conjecture (but I’m sure that Joe knows the truth, peering into his crystal ball).

Bottom line is that there is a less than 100% commitment to fielding the best possible team this season. There are very few teams in the NBA for which you can make that statement. Given 39 wins over the last two seasons, and the questionable construction of the roster, added to a clear unwillingness, or inability, to put the best possible product on the floor, it’s very hard to get excited or get behind this team completely. If they’re going to use 60% of the cap, maybe they should discount tickets by 40%. Aren’t you supposed to get what you pay for?

I’m done talking about non-basketball related issues. The roster and the salaries for next season are set. As are the built-in excuses for failing to even sniff the playoffs. How can one analyze the performance of a team that one knows isn’t fully funded or designed for maximum competitiveness? Will every struggle be met with, “well it’s the money, stupid”? And, to the extent that the statement is fairly accurate, what’s left to discuss? I guess ongoing conversations will be built around the evolving development of the the young core, which should be very enjoyable to watch. Joe’s an emerging star, who should have a viable opportunity to make the all-star team this year. Setting expectations for either Josh or Marvin is extremely challenging, because both could explode and it would be hard to say that it would be a surprise. If Speedy is healthy, we’ve got a really quick team that should do a better job of on-the-ball defense. Wright shores up the paint, and relegates the wasted pick that is Shelden Williams to a season of mop up duty, and ever-evolving support for the idea that Billy made a huge mistake in drafting him. I still don’t see five teams that are worse than the Hawks, but nobody saw the Hornets playing .500 ball before last season either, so the coaches and the players have an opportunity to “shock the world”.

This has been a long summer here. Sekou and I discussed the likelihood that boredom, inactivity, and, from my point, less than optimal team transactions, would turn the blog into a testy place to hang out. I have only to scroll up 3 inches to confirm how right we were. Ray’s right. The things that have been written here this summer would have led to many a physical altercation had they been said in person.

We are right at the first anniversary of the initiation of this blog. Congrats to Sekou, and everyone who’s been here the whole time, slugging it out. Year two begins. Anybody else familiar with the term “Terrible Two’s”?

By Astro Joe

August 24, 2006 11:36 AM | Link to this

I love the way you avoid the question Ando, you’re a great wordsmith. Okay, I’m done. I’ll only bring it back up every time you bring up that BK overpaid for JJ. I generally don’t initiate as much as I respond. Somehow, I doubt that any of this nonsense would escalate in a face-to-face scenario. I know that I am far too focused on raising my sons to be responsible and respected men to get into a physical altercation over a basketball disagreement. Now if you want to fight over Halle Berry vs. Madonna, that’s another story. Anyway, have an excellent day!

By lacsho

August 24, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

At this current state of Hawks affairs, one has to ponder that ownership thinks little of the Hawks fans. Know one on this blog can tell me that the Hawks are the best at evaluating talent, nor can they clearly tell me the method to this madness. Time and time again we are told there were no viable or worthy offers. I’m sorry folks I just can’t buy that one. Last time I checked, I didn’t see stupid written on my forehead. There are so many intelligent people on this blog; I wonder if anyone from the organizations reads it. They must not; otherwise the communication towards the intelligent fan wouldn’t be so condescending or passive.

Know one addresses management with the tough questions, Doc I’d like to know the answers to your questions.

Lastly, if ownership is content with putting a sub par product on the floor, then I think ownership should be content with the sub par attendance, and or support. In other words, I guess their content with loosing large amounts of profits. I will follow the games on TV, and occasionally go to a game, but I refuse to invest my hard earn money in a franchise that has little to know direction. We have a lot of potential on this team, but so does every team in the NBA.

I know the general consensus on this blog is quit crying what’s done is done, but at this point until a game is played, it’s hard to let go. Basketball Gods please send the Hawks an owner like Mark Cuban or Arthur Blank.

I don’t want to do a list of shout-outs; I just like to thank all of the intelligent fans on this blog. I really like all of the different point of views you guys express.

By newkid

August 24, 2006 11:41 AM | Link to this

Not sure about the rest of you, but ANDO and Joe burying the hatchet makes me happy. Kudos guys! Now if you could just get Belkin and the rest of the AS to follow your lead and give us the product we all deserve, I’ll vote for you for president and vp.

By HB Ando

August 24, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Joe, do I get Halle or Madonna? If we both agree on Halle, then I’m afraid a scrap in inevitable……

Looking forward to another year of telling you how pointless it was for Billy to waste 2 picks and Diaw for a player he could have had for the price of his contract.

Take it light.

By mountain_jim

August 24, 2006 11:58 AM | Link to this

I take issue with this quote of Gearon from Tucker’s article:

“Billy [Knight] saw our needs going into the offseason as point guard and backup big [man]”

I don’t believe Zaza is a starting quality center, he should be the backup big to a center better on offense and defense, so to me was underestimating needs right there.

We heard that BK tried to see if LA would deal Bynum, who could be developed into that starting quality big one day, and maybe with all this cap room a free agent center of better quality can be added in the future (very expensively) but that’s where the likely top 10 2007 Hawk’s pick traded away really bites - the quality centers will be gone by the time the Hawk’s using Indy’s possible pick get to draft.

So where will a starting quality center be found? Maybe ZaZa develops into one but I just don’t see it.

And nothing done in this offseason moves us closer to getting one, except for the cap space for a future free agent (like Dwight Howard?)

By HB Ando

August 24, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

Now you’re seeing the light, Jim.

By Zach

August 24, 2006 01:08 PM | Link to this

Hey Al

F*** off, maybe if you had made a few of the turn around fall away jumpers of yours we would have one a few more ball games. Mr. F*** Nice Guy not having any fun, I wish you would have spoken up for yourself on the court and established yourself as a perenial All Star rather then some 2nd rate Chris Webber wanne be. Don’t say all the right things and then leave talking a bunch of s** because those words will come back to haunt you. I would much rather watch Josh Smith and Marvin Williams hustle and struggle then your boring a* go for 15 and 5 every night. Enjoy your trip to the first round of the playoffs with Indiana, but remember this when we eliminate your a* two years from now b***.

By clyde

August 24, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

Jim let me respond. You said “Clyde, we won’t win 27 ??? You mean Speedy, Lorenzen and sheldon aren’t Better than harrington, Edwards and Dante Smith? Even the Hawks and Bk’s worst critic wouldn’t make that claim. I’d say thats AT LEAST a 5 game improvement alone. Granted I’m pulling #’s out my a$$, but thats my opinion. Also, while its certainly not guaranteed, No one can reasonably say that youngsters like Smoove, Childress, Marvin, Stoudamire, and Zaza arent on the upswing. Players that are 19-22 years old tend to get better with experience. If we fire Billy and Woody, fine with me. But at least acknowledge that this team is much better positioned to win than last year.”

Hell naw Lorenzen, Speedy, and Sheldon arent better that Harrington, Edwards and Dante. To me Harrington is better than all those combined. Mark my words the Hawks will not win 30 games this year with this roster.

And Sekou with that last post it seems like your ready to join the movement. I have a t-shirt waiting for you when your ready.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Astro Joe

August 24, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

Jim (and Ando), I think that the old days of the dominating center are all but gone. There are 30 teams and maybe 5-6 centers who could have played 10 years ago when dinosaurs like Ewing, Hakeem, Admiral, Sabonis, Smits and others were roaming the earth. Shaq is at best a 28 minute player in another year or two. Yao needs to stay healthy. Oden needs to play against someone who can buy a beer.

Zaza is 21 years old (I think) and hopefully will get a little stronger (although his frame seems narrow). If he produces close to 12 points, 10 boards and continues to be a top 5 offensive rebounder in the game, that should be sufficient. I’m old school and 2 of my all-time favorites are Moses Malone and Hakeem (sheer coincidence that they played for the Rockets as I have never stepped foot in Houston). But I truly believe that we will never see more than 4-5 effective pure centers in this game at the same time for a long, long time. A 6’11” pseudo center with above average rebounding skills and a willingness to score in the paint will likely be good enough for 20-25 teams in the league. And we have one at a very, very reasonable salary.

I do think that every team needs an offensive option that shoots a very high percentage of shots. And truthfully, we do not have that yet. Most teams get the from their PF. The Wizards and Bulls have proven you can reach the playoffs without that high field-goal percentage player.

By boheezy

August 24, 2006 01:46 PM | Link to this

About Joe Johnson’s contract and how it is listed on the books for this season, You have to remember that his contract was front loaded so that’s why he got 20 mil last year and like 12 this year. That was one of the things that put Atlanta in JJ’s favor cause we offered a big chunk upfront. I wish like everyone else that we didn’t include the 2 draft picks or if we just had to I would have rather it been both from this year since we knew before this was done that the highschoolers weren’t going to be in the draft this year, but let’s just see what happens this year. 30+ wins is possible and maybe even a .500 season as long as none of the main guys get hurt and we beat the teams we should beat. There’s no reason we should beat the spurs and then turn around and lose to Charlotte in the same week. Give the guys a chance to do what they do on the court and not worry about the folks off the court.

By newkid

August 24, 2006 04:12 PM | Link to this

New thread time. Always looking for a reason to be positive as regards the home team, and low and behold in the arena of ‘possible, but not likely’ comes this tidbit. The ‘07 draft could yield a top 3 pick AND a pick in the 11-15 range for the Hawks. I’m just saying…

Okay, back to reality. In the more likely event that we’re drafting ONLY somewhere beyond the 10 spot, here are a few intriguing prospects who might be available in third five. Might be worth keeping an eye on them over the months ahead.

Yi Jianlian, 7’-0” C/PF on the Chinese national team. Saw him against Team USA couple days back. 19-20 years old, very athletic, nice touch 15 feet and in, runs the floor quite well. Doesn’t fit the mold of the classic 5, but - as Joe said - classic 5s may be yesterday’s news in the new look NBA.

Hashem Thabeet, Tanzanian, 7’3” C headed to UConn this fall. Haven’t seen him, but sounds BIG (260+), athletic, and fairly new to the game of basketball. Nevertheless, one of the basketball ‘airheads’ has said that this guy projects as potentially a top ten pick in ‘07 draft IF Calhoun can work his magic with him at UConn this season. This projection probably has more to do with his size and athleticism than any demonstration of advanced basketball skills. His development may be interesting to watch in the Big East.

Hibbert (Georgetown) is also likely to be there as well, but most have likely already seen him a fair bit. Although he commands lots of space in the paint, I’ve been less than favorably impressed with his athleticism and overall basketball skills.

By Astro Joe

August 24, 2006 04:46 PM | Link to this

At the risk of bringing up a sore subject for some, is Cenk Akyol playing for Turkey in the FIBA games? It hit me earlier this week that I should watch some of these other countries to “scout” Tiago Splitter, Rudy Fernandez and other international players that have been mentioned frequently around draft time. But I’d be really interested to see if either of the Hawks players (Akyol or David Andersen) are playing. And has anyone discovered a site with box scores from the World Games? If so, please share.

By mykhalc

August 24, 2006 05:22 PM | Link to this

CLYDE, i REALLY hope that you were not serious about…Hell naw Lorenzen, Speedy, and Sheldon arent better that Harrington, Edwards and Dante. To me Harrington is better than all those combined. ‘cause we ALL KNOW that ain’t true!!!!

man, ego is a funny thing!! and it’ll usually get the best of most people unless put in check. not that it matters, but AL just took a dive in the respectablity column with me. his ego is hurt ‘cause at 26yrs old, supposedly in the prime of his career, his old team says we are not gonna build around you anymore. we got the young guns now!! then his new team says, well you ain’t worth what you think you’re worth!! and i guess his new agent says that’s the best you’re gonna get!! and the market showed him the same thing!! NO WAY AL shoulda gotten anymore than he did. the cat is just NOT a difference maker on the court!!! he’s a GOOD player…PERIOD…no more…no less. but to now dis the team is just not happenin’!! i guess if he can be p** about anything MAYBE it’s the fact they did not trade him before the dealine last season. and who knows where that would have left him in seekin’ a new contract?? my bottom line is IF ANYONE REALLY would have wanted AL THAT bad, he would have gotten him what his ego tells him he deserves!!!

By mykhalc

August 24, 2006 05:26 PM | Link to this

shoulda read…

my bottom line is IF ANYONE REALLY would have wanted AL THAT bad, he would have gotten what his ego tells him he deserves!!!

By michael m.

August 24, 2006 06:42 PM | Link to this

sekou,

in effect golden state WAS trying to dump players on us. players like murphy that while talented, do not fit what we are doing. the nba is set up in a way that balancing your the salary cap is crucial. screw that up and you can set your franchise back five years. it’s a star driven league in that the teams that usually win titles have superstars worthy of their max contracts. pay the wrong guy that amount, like $11 mill per for troy murphy, and you will end up paying a heavy price in more ways than one. as a result, a players value is tied to the salary they make. it’s not objectively sound to ignore the fact that al is saying some of these things out of frustration. i have been around enough pro players and the people who rep them to know that they all feel they have value and are special. some of you would be surprised at how a lot of players who we feel are grossly overpaid and haven’t produced in years, feel that they are just in the wrong team situation and pressure their agents to find them another team or even complain to the gm about their minutes. in reality, the gm might be happy to unload these players and their contracts of only they could find a buyer. and sekou, i could understand how by you being around these guys a lot, you might even be able to sympathize with their point of view. i am not saying you do, mind you. you seem to be a good, objective reporter. but regarding your comments about wanting players back in exchange for al, i would have agreed if we hadn’t already acquired speedy, zo and shelden. at that point, we didn’t need a jeff foster or joe smith. taking back such contracts without their being tied to players such as andrew bynum, patrick o’bryant or david harrison, was not necessarily beneficial. if we could have also received one of those young bigs and we still wouldn’t take back the attached expiring contracts, then that is a serious problem with management regarding this trade. i wouldn’t want mediocre role players that would be superfluous to what we currently have and would only get in the way of the minutes our younger guys who we are hoping to build around, need this year. unfortunately, none of the names mentioned as available in trade seemed worthy. please let us know if you think any of the young bigs, biedrens too, were really available. sometimes it takes balls for a gm to refuse to play the game and be steadfast in what you are trying to do. there seems to be pressure to be part of the boys club and play along with the other gms and media in order to be portrayed favorably. i am glad bk isn’t like that (babcock sure was). bk definitely has not been perfect but to blame him for not bringing in mediocre or overpaid players seems counterintuitive to what the hawks are attempting to build. you don’t throw away everything and start over the way we did just to become impatient and waste your cap flexibility on players who are not going to get you significantly closer to championship level. if i am reading you wrong sekou, please explain. that is just how it came off to me. personally, i wish bk would have really pushed superhard for bynum. one faction of the lakers seems like they would have been willing to make that trade. you see that crack, you attack it and make it work. bk seems a little too laidback to take such an approach, but i would love to know who and what he pushed hard for. it’s not our fault that al didn’t create a bidding war. i think al is shooting the messenger in this instance.

By roan st

August 24, 2006 06:55 PM | Link to this

I have studied the 2007 draft and greg oden is the only bonified true center projected to go in the top 10. I keep hearing these fairy tales about all these great centers were going to miss out on. Please look at the draft because it is very deep in power forwards and wing players, not true centers. In fact there are several good centers projected to fall between 15-25. This is a very deep draft if eveyone comes out as expected and we could get a very good player even if it is in the low 20’s.

By Steve B.

August 24, 2006 08:11 PM | Link to this

roan st, you are correct if things go the way that is expected. But some guys on this blog hear lotto pick and loose all since of who’s actualy going where. The fact is we haven’t missed out on Odem at all, if we truley are as bad as some are predicting we still have our shot with our pick protected at 3 and up. If we show the improvement I think we will show 37 to 40 wins #9 to 13 in the draft won’t be that much higher than where Ind picks.

By Jim

August 24, 2006 08:14 PM | Link to this

Well. Clyde, I guess we have to agree to disagree. I’d have taken Speedy straight up for Al. The others are gravy. Anyway, at least you care about the Hawks enuff to be passionate. One thing we can agree on: we both gotta hope I’m right and your wrong. If you ARE right I’m gonna really regret my NBA Leagur Pass this season. BTW everyone, even though JJ was paid $23 mil last year , $13,934,731 of it was a signing bonus. The bonus is divided over the lenghth of the contract for cap purposes. That means $2,786,948 of it counts toward the cap each year. Here are his salaries for cap purposes, starting with last year : ‘06 -$12,000,000 ‘07 - $12,967,370 ‘08 - $13,934,741 ‘09 - $14,902,111 ‘10 - $15,869,482. Hope that helps.

By NumbaOneFan

August 24, 2006 09:27 PM | Link to this

Nice post Michael M and Zach…. decided to resurface just in time to catch some good reading and intelligent opinions. I gotta go along with Michhael M on what he said. BK is not Mr Personality and has not made the right decision everytime but, Pete Babcock was a joke. This man literally set this franchise back 5+ years with his dreadful talent assessment and senseless free agent signings. BK has kept us in a position to be able to sign our young guns and still retain capspace for any opportunities that may present themselves during the course of this season. If the Hawks can get off to a good start and jell as a team there is no reason to think that BK and the Dumba$$ Sprit wont seize the moment and make a trade that could help down the line. It is imperative in todays NBA to have cap romm and flexibility. Like I said BK is not Albert Einstein but, he ain’t Pee Wee Herman either.

By A Thinking Fan

August 24, 2006 09:48 PM | Link to this

Good Post & takes today…

By mykhalc

August 24, 2006 10:02 PM | Link to this

MM, you nailed it with this one… you don’t throw away everything and start over the way we did just to become impatient and waste your cap flexibility on players who are not going to get you significantly closer to championship level.

NICELY SAID!!

By doc

August 24, 2006 11:20 PM | Link to this

jim, thanks, funny sports economics, spend it one year but apply it over six. guess in real dollars the team is spending less but only the most discerning fan will understand.

By MBATL

August 24, 2006 11:22 PM | Link to this

Astro, Akyol is playing; try http://www.fiba.com/

By michael m.

August 25, 2006 12:10 AM | Link to this

thanks for the acknowledgement numbaone and mykhalc. i can understand how hard it is for some to be patient, especially when hindsight shows we haven’t done everything perfectly. but that’s life. i don’t think anyone thinks we have made all the right moves. there’s a bit of luck involved in becoming an elite team as well. in the end, we are moving in the right direction. some people aren’t realizing the natural progression our very young squad will make this season as they grow and learn the league. most of our top talents are still of college age. and the players we acquired fit desperate needs that we had. this season will tell us a lot about this squad’s future together. but back to the harrington situation, i have to believe that if the right young big that bk said he was seeking in trade was available, he would have made it happen. and while the three scrooges, i mean spirit, may lack for savvy, they do seem to be true hawks fans. that’s what scares me about belkin. he definitely has the smarts and is willing to call someone’s bluff, but i am not sure if he would be as passionate and committed to the atlanta hawks as he is to himself and his business interests. there’s definitely something to be said for the love an atl owner like ted turner or arthur blank brings. these guys don’t appear to be up to that standard, but i am going to withhold final judgement for now. like numbaone fan mentioned, perhaps the first half of the season will show us that we need something in particular and if the right guy becomes available in trade, perhaps they will make the move. i kind of feel like this is going to be it for awhile, but even if that is the case, it will be good to see what a hawk team that has some depth can do. as joe pointed out, there aren’t a dozen olajuwons and ewing’s hanging out and just waiting to be selected. that’s what i was getting at earlier in the summer in talking about josh smith and marvin being able to play alonside each other on the floor. this is a different, faster league with the new style of player and the new rules limiting the ability to make a lot of contact on the perimeter. even the playoffs, which is when the slowdown game used to always take over, showed this year that athleticism is at an even greater premium. there are a few teams talking this summer about doing what bk was partially referring as the ideal last summer. long, athletic players who can play multiple positions and create mismatches.

By HB Ando

August 25, 2006 12:49 AM | Link to this

Joe, I don’t think that the immediate future is particularly different that the historical NBA, with regards to the number of dominant centers, and their collective impact on the battle for championships. I don’t know that any era has provided more than a handful of dominant big men at any one time. I simply see Oden coming in and picking up where Shaq and Duncan are leaving off. Before them guys like Hakeem and Robinson reigned supreme (and Abdul-Jabbar and Malone before them).

Championships have always revolved around dominant big men. Jordan was the only exception to the rule. Like Duncan and Shaq, Oden projects to compete for rings for the next ten years. It’s the very lack of numerous athletic bigs that ensures their unique value in the NBA, for years to come.

It’s unlikely that we’ll be here, reaching back three or four years from now, to evaluate such statements, but I’m feeling pretty confident that positions regarding the extinction of dominant big men, as they relate to NBA championships, or absolutely off base. I just can’t help but imagine similar “Chicken Little-like” comments when Duncan was entering the league.

If anything, I’d be more likely to suggest just the opposite is true: that supremely athletic young men, of outlandish physical dimensions, are to be expected in our future. Lebron brought the unique blend of Magic’s size and vision, with Michael’s athleticism, and here we watch in wonder. History suggests that the next genetic freak is waiting to emerge ‘round the corner, redifining roles and possibility, as both Garnett, James, TMac, Kobe and others have done.

It’s hard for me to understand how anyone could believe that freakishly athletic big men are LESS likely to arrive on the scene, with dominating impact on the game. Guys like Oden and Noah will define the upper echelon of NBA franchises over the next 15 years. Simply put, the collective failures of this franchise, over the last few years, should they yield, despite their best efforts, the acquisition of the rights to either Noah or Oden, would absolutely alter the, by no less than 180 degrees, the fortunes of the Atlanta Hawks.

By doc

August 25, 2006 07:54 AM | Link to this

andy not sure but when duncan came into the league there was no lottery. the rules changed about that time and may have been because of his draft year where several teams decided not to compete to try and get him. low and behold the san antonio franchise who had been in the playoffs the year before fell all the way to the bottom when robinson went to the trainers table for the year.

andy, i truly hear how important it would be to get a potential player of the caliber of the greats that you mentioned but because of the loterry a team cant wait for the outside chance they may get the ball to fall the right way. in my opinion that is a fools choice to play that card or even to consider that as the way to build a franchise. though you dont say it you implicate that that is about the only chance this franchise has to make it big. a lot of luck is involved and some skill to make it to the championship rung, to continue to harp on the oden issue and the draft right now with it ten months away is a moot or remote issue and AT BEST only involves luck anyway.

now if this team comes up slow out of the gate this year or begins to falter mid-season i would very quietly begin hoping that the team begins to “posture” to make sure it is in the bottom three of the league at the end of the season but even that will not dictate how the balls will fall nor dictate who comes out to become instant millionaires, even noah didnt do it this year when he could have and should have. he would have likely fallen to us or someone else better than sheldon at five if he had but that is where luck is involved and it doesnt matter how good any gm is that is the primary qualifier for the draft that athe best gm cant dictate. even kiki couldnt mess up on carmelo, again luck.

andy, it just doesnt make sense to continue to harp on the draft either when you look at the teams that have made it to the finals the last few years. andy, i dont need to tell you they werent made by drafting well but by spending money, bringing folks to a high level market and making trades to bring together talent. you know that. certainly you wont disagree that no team has made it to the finals on a shoestring budget in the nba since you were born and that is why you have to go by aj’s rule follow the money.

be reasonable andy. by the way, ben wallace doesnt fit your mold either and he was considered one of the major reasons the pistons were able to do what they did to reach the highest rung. he is undersized at under 7 foot, certainly doesnt weigh 300 or so pounds, not drafted and spent time in europe before making an nba team.

folks, there are many ways to build a winner and the draft is the unlikliest one of all and may undo this franchise as it was split apart because one owner was so adamant about not giving up a number one two to three years down the road and the fan base fell into the outcry foolishly.

andy, you may be stuck on a very irrelevant point to building a franchise and one that is based on pure luck as each year four or five melo’s, bosh’s, labron’s, howards or garnett’s dont come out assuring a franchise of a sure way to the top if they protect their draft choices. you cant depend on the draft just like you dont get cards to fall your way just because you showed up at the game. three aces dont go to every hand nor preferentially to the last guy who had the lousiest draw. you have to build it and you have a startegy. this organizations strategy appears to build slowly and not spend money. we’ll see if their way works but the draft is not the way to do it just because so much pure luck is involved, wish it were but it just isnt.

By dale

August 25, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

being the long time disgruntled Hawks fan I am, I’m thankful for the honesty I read from guys like Clyde and Ando.
I believe Ando said it best, if the owners aren’t going to give 100%, why should I as a fan give 100%?

I don’t agree with the popular thought on this blog, that says Billy Knight is not to blame for this mess. The way I see it is, if Billy is signing is name on these deals, then he is responsible. Billy’s job is to make this team a competitive and attractive product. If his bosses are not allowing him to do that, he needs to quit!!!!

Bill Parcells said it best, “if you want me to cook the food, your going have to let me buy the groceries”

By A Thinking Fan

August 25, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

Dale Your real hate is obvious. BK is just part of the problem and fans with unstated, closet, deep-seated biases… Put your fangs back in your mouth. The days of lynching are over.

By doc

August 25, 2006 10:00 AM | Link to this

dale, sometimes people choose to feed their families or work within the parameters they are given. that is true for most of us as we all have mouths to feed or true passion for what we do so we accept the less than optimal or perfect situations. i imagine you have done it yourself or maybe you are the type that acccept their situation by complaining about how bad it is and dont quit rather than seeeing some of the pleasures of it or work quietly to improve it. we all have done it so dont get your nose out of joint but just dont pontificate like that without getting a response.

dale, as far as bill parcells that is a very poor example. he didnt find lightening in a bottle after several attempts and the most accurate fact is he never did it without bellichek, that is what he is missing now on his grocery list. dale, that is even though he has one of the most egotistical owners that spends willingly which your hawks arent willing to do. if you believe them they are the only organization who wont spend silly money to get a product that is competitive on the court. a sublte message i heard in tuckers article is everyone else in the nba is too dumb to realize how they are overspending for their inferior product.

By Astro Joe

August 25, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

Time for the weekly “Bernie said” segment. Bernie said that Golden State offered a player for Al with a big and lengthy contract. I’m guessing Troy Murphy. Lakers offered a young center and other older players. I’m guessing Bynum and expiring contracts. Problem with the Lakers was that they offered Al the least amount of money. So while the Hawks were interested in the trade, Al’s agents would not agree to the contract. Indiana initially offered an underplayed, overpaid player (I’m assuming Foster) and we all know what the deal eventually became. Too bad that the Lakers tried to low-ball Al.

By Astro Joe

August 25, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

MBATL, thanks for the link. Looks like Akyol is playing but not Andersen. I recall reading that he broke either his ankle or leg a few months ago, so I guess he is still recovering as he is not listed with the Australian national team.

By mountain_jim

August 25, 2006 11:15 AM | Link to this

Well if the Lakers really offered Bynum (which is not what I heard even though they need to win now and Phil was ready to trade him), maybe the Hawks can revisit that opportunity with their cap space and Lue/Chills or something over the course of this season.

Y’all have convinced me that the draft options for a center are not as bleak as I opined, but I just don’t think ZaZa is ever going to be strong or atheletic enough to be a quality starting defensive center.

Sure he gets a lot of offensive rebounds, that’s because he weekly short-arms all his own layups and get 3 or 4 putbacks of his own missed shots.

I really think with a better starting defensive center and the hoped for projected growth of Marvin and Smooth, this team really could be contending season after next.

If the Hawks can get off to a hot start and put fans in the seats to see an exciting, running, gunning team, maybe ownership will consider upgrading center.

Well I guess not until the lawsuit gets resolved, so maybe that happens late or after this season…

By Steve B.

August 25, 2006 11:22 AM | Link to this

Dale as I said the other day you nor anyone else will say they don’t think BK’s hands are tied or hand-cuffed when it comes to money. So to blam it on BK are you realy upset with the job he’s done or do you just want to put someone else in that job? Man to man why would you quit? Belkin wins he gets all the money his contract is worth when he’s fired. A.S.wins he gets to finnaly do his job without hand-cuffs. Would you quit?

By Steve B.

August 25, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

Mountain_Jim, I agree ZaZa isn’t an NBA starting center and would be better suited as a reserve. But you can’t knock his offensive rebounds, the guy is actualy good at that. A better defensive starting center would be a huge plus and get us over the hump if Smith and Marvin become the players that they are invissioned to be.

By HB Ando

August 25, 2006 12:31 PM | Link to this

doc, I could be wrong, but I believe there was a lottery when Duncan was picked. The Celtics had the worst record, and San Antonio got the bounce of the balls. I’m not suggesting we seek out a bottom-3 record (though I’ve marvelled at the value of it before). I’m suggesting there would be tremendous value to this particular franchise, in next season’s draft, to end up with one of those picks. I’m saying that the future would, in fact, be much brighter if we were to end up with one of those two players, rather than fail to make the playoffs and watch our lottery pick go to Phoenix.

I left Wallace out because, having watched the series against the Heat, and predicted the Heat would win this year as a result of what I say, I think the Pistons only won because Shaq was not healthy. Healthy Shaq and DWade= back-to-back titles on South Beach. So the dominant big man was still instrumental in the outcome of the championship. Titles without such players are the exception, not the rule.

I think it’s a pretty safe assumption that we’re not a playoff contender this year. So we’ll get our share of ping pong balls. Whether that yields a bottom-3 pick is unknown. But I feel arguing that keeping that pick doesn’t project to dramatically change the fortunes of this franchise is pure folly. We lack a long term solution at center. We’re not the likely destination of any upcoming free agent centers of note, as we’ve discussed at length that the ownership situation doesn’t portend to enhance the perception of our franchise around the league. My point is far less about viewing the potential unknown of keeping that pick, than it is about logically concluding that we’d be in much better shape getting to pick in the top-3 next summer. That’s all I’m saying.

By ray

August 25, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

Dale…what would “BK quitting” do to change things? If the owners won’t let him do a more effective job because they don’t want him to spend more money, then another GM would be in the exact same position. The owners have control of the money, that’s why they’re called OWNERS. If Billy did quit, the only thing it would do is bring in another GM, whenever somebody was crazy enough to take the job. And that would be a change in philosophy I suppose, assuming the owners were willing to play along that is. And that could be either good or bad. But either way, with the owners not wanting to spend money, I have to ask again just what does Billy quitting really change? Besides giving you and Clyde a new target….

By HB Ando

August 25, 2006 12:36 PM | Link to this

Truth be told, if we ended up with the first pick, I still think Oden would decide to stay in school……..

By michael m.

August 25, 2006 12:40 PM | Link to this

if the lakers put bynum on the table as one option, they probably pulled mihm out of that scenario since they don’t want to have kwame as their only center option. unfortunately that leaves them with less money to offer al since mihm’s 4.2 mill was the largest of their group of expiring contracts. too bad that didn’t work out because i would have loved to see bynum here. i can’t blame al for not accepting those terms or the lakers for not viewing john edwards as a suitable backup center to replace bynum and mihm.

ando, i agree the teams with bonafide star centers in the next era will have a leg or two up on winning championships. howard and darko could be the next version of duncan and robinson. milicic has a ton of talent and is in the perfect situation. and whoever gets oden will be right there if surrounded by the right talent. mchale never truly put it it together for the twolves while buford and the spurs combined lotto luck with several prescient moves despite always picking late in rounds. they were ahead of the game in selecting the right foreign pieces to put around duncan in order to keep it going down in the alamo.

an article i just read further proves what i have been saying about teams redefining how the center spot is used. i am not saying it will necessarily work, but it reiterates my point about not defining players as a 3 or 4. by having flexibility you can change it up, even confounding the opposition at times. the following is in today’s indystar and quotes carlisle on how he plans to use his frontline this season:

Thinking ahead Pacers coach Rick Carlisle hasn’t determined a starting lineup, but he envisions putting Harrington with Danny Granger and Jermaine O’Neal in the front line. “They all bring something a little different to the situation,” Carlisle said. “All three guys are very good rebounders at their positions. There will be times when Al is defending the center and Jermaine the (power forward), and there will be times when Al is playing center on offense and Jermaine will be the (power forward). “All three guys bring the ability to shoot the ball and put the ball on the floor. It opens us up from the standpoint of being a quicker team and being able to make things happen.”

By michael m.

August 25, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

come on ando, why must your glass always be half empty?

i agree that landing in the top three picks next season would be the best option for our future. however, that doesn’t mean losing all your games. even if you have the worst record and the most ping pong balls, the odds are greater that you will end up with the 4th pick. better to win as many as possible since the lottery is going to take some luck regardless of where we finish.

By ray

August 25, 2006 12:52 PM | Link to this

Ando I see your point. Based on what ownership seems currently willing to do in the free agent or trade market, the draft is pretty much where our team enhancement is coming from. Of course, that could change sometime before next year’s trading deadline, but right now who would expect otherwise? It’s a bad feeling, to be honest. The reason I say that is based on past draft choices, I am less than confident that we’ll make a pick that gives us someone who will fill a need directly or even open up new opportunities. By new opportunities I mean drafting someone who changes our initial projected starting line-up. For instance, we could draft a good pg, to eventually take Speedy’s spot. But drafting a combo guard with good pg skills changes things a bit. It gives you another sure-fire scorer who also doesn’t have a problem being a floor leader/ball distributor. But it really has to be the right guy. Drafting another small forward is just out. Drafting a big strong forward has possibilities, but is that what we need? Only if it’s a guy like Okafor, who while described as undersized, is a true post player with strong defensive capability and skill (seriously, although Brezec is the center on that team, who’s the real threat/intimidator down low?). That would allow us to move around and talk trade with some of our small forward types, seeing as how we have a few to do that with. Drafting a center, hey…as long as the guy is good or has really good substantial potential to be so, the benefits are obvious. Again, this is all based on the assumption that we will not be very active or successful in the free agent or trade market. Our business decisions are definitely scaring people away right now.

By Astro Joe

August 25, 2006 01:34 PM | Link to this

I agree with MM that we shouldn’t get caught up in the center position. Do we need a defensive presence in the low post who can also provide high percentage field goal attempts? Sure. But as I said, the Bulls and Wizards (among others) have made it to the playoffs without that. And I think that any discussion that puts the Hawks and the word Finals in the same blog is ridiculous. Let’s win 35+ games and get to the playoffs and then figure out what we need to become legit contenders. I doubt that more than 4-5 teams go into any season with a legit shot at winning everything. The fact that we may not have championship squad after next year’s draft is not worth screaming over. If we are unfortunate enough to be picking among the top 6 picks for 4 consecutive years, then the 17 fans who are left can decide to project that new line-up into Finals in a few years.

By honest_abe

August 25, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this

what up fellas! been real busy trying set up my fantasy football board… it’s absolutely my favorite time of the year!

i can’t believe we’re sitting here hoping that we’ll end up with one of the top three picks next year. bleh, i want to see considerable improvement this year. i don’t want to see this team regress. like mm alluded to, even if the hawks did get the most ping pong balls, with this organizations luck we wouldn’t get the first pick! it’s amazing that as sorry as the hawks franchise has been we haven’t had the overall 1st pick in the past 25 years.

say what you want about the hawks front office…they made more than their share of questionable moves, in the end they still improved this team without sacrificing our future. i really believe this team will show some considerable progression and withing two months we’ll all be the best of friends..lol

anywho, back to football! “glory, glory to ol georgia!!!!!!!”

By newkid

August 25, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

Seems there are many types of ‘team models’ that have been successful in the NBA over the past 30 years or so. As ANDO pointed out, MJ won 6 titles without the classic dominant big man. But Chuck Daly took Zeke, Dumars, and serviceable - but not dominant - big men and won championships. Bird and the Celtics won without an absolutely dominant big man. The Suns seem enroute to a championship without a classically dominant big man. While the Lakers had Kareem for their 80’s championship runs, who doubts that perhaps with merely a serviceable big, Magic and the proper mix of other ‘showtime’ parts might have been almost as successful. Doc and the 76ers won without the dominant big man (Caldwell Jones was hardly dominant). But with all that said, my gosh having a Shag, a Kareem, a Dipper, seems much more preferable than trying to build a winner without this sort of asset.

If a team is fortunate enough to draft or otherwise attract a Shaq or a Duncan, then it seems the team has gotta try and employ a model of play that revolves around that talent. Got to! But if you’re not that fortunate, and you don’t have a Lebron, or an MJ, or a Bird to build your model around, you must nevertheless have some sort of model for success. Otherwise what sort of logic directs your efforts in trades, FA-ency, and the draft?

Colangelo had a model in Phoenix, and he continues to gather pieces to give the Suns the best chance of building and winning with that model. But you can bet that if someone like a younger Shaq were available, but didn’t fit the current Phoenix model, Colanagelo wouldn’t hesitant to go after him, then adjust the model based upon the NEW presence. But Colangelo and the Suns couldn’t afford sit and wait for dumb luck to deliver a Shaq-like force in the paint. The constructed a different model, and sought the pieces that would make it work. It’s working.

We haven’t been fortunate enough to draft or attract a Shaq-like post man, and we’ve not been fortunate enough to get a Lebron, an MJ, or a Bird around which we could build a different type of model. So what’s our model (gotta have one otherwise we flounder), and what additional pieces do we need to give us the best chance to make that model work?

By michael m.

August 25, 2006 02:51 PM | Link to this

newkid,

just to correct some of your points:

dr. j had moses malone, a dominant big man. bird’s celtics had robert parish who was definitely upper echelon, if not quite as dominant as a moses or kareem. even daly’s blue collar pistons had laimbeer, who was far more than just serviceable. the team that did best with just serviceable bigs was jordan’s bulls, as mentioned. but jordan was jordan, and even he had pippen by his side. not too mention rodman for part of their run. also, fyi colangelo is no longer with the suns, he is now with toronto.

By honest_abe

August 25, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

i think the one common denominator about all championship teams is not having a great big manning the middle. instead, a team must have one or two future hall of famers. the only team i can think of that has won an nba title without a “superstar/hall of famer” is the detroit pistons. but they SHOULD have lost to the lakers and they SHOULD have lost to the heat. so although i like the progress of this current hawks team, i don’t see anyone that has the potential to be a future HOF’er on the current roster. from this perspective i can feel some of ando’s pain.

since we’re all talkin about next year, i’m just relying on the hawks picking up a BIG TIME FA next off season. here’s my wish list.

1. chauncey billups
2. dirk nowitski
3. kirk hinrich (restricted)
4. mike bibby

those are my top 4 but check out the depth of this class!

Aaron McKie Eddie Griffin Maurice Williams Alan Anderson Eddie House Michael Doleac Aleksandar Pavlovic Eddie Jones Michael Ruffin Anderson Varejao Eduardo Najera Mickael Pietrus

Andray Blatche Ersan Ilyasova Mike Bibby

Andre Barrett Esteban Batista Mike Sweetney

Andres Nocioni Gerald Wallace Mikki Moore

Antonio McDyess Grant Hill Morris Peterson

Antawn Jamison Howard Eisley Nick Collison

Austin Croshere Jacque Vaughn Orien Greene

Boniface N’Dong Jake Tsakalidis Pat Garrity

Boris Diaw Jalen Rose Peter John Ramos

Bracey Wright Jamaal Magloire PJ Brown

Brandon Bass Jamal Sampson PJ Tucker

Brian Cook James Posey Pooh Jeter

Charlie Bell James Singleton Primoz Brezec

Chauncey Billups Jarvis Hayes Raef LaFrentz

Chris Kaman Jason Kapono Rashard Lewis

Chris Mihm Jeff McInnis Rawle Marshall

Chucky Hayes Jerry Stackhouse Reece Gaines

CJ Miles Joe Smith Ronald Dupree

Clifford Robinson John Edwards Ronnie Price

Corliss Williamson Josh Howard Royal Ivey

Dahntay Jones Josh Powell Sean Marks

Dale Davis Justin Williams Shammond Williams

Daniel Horton Keith McLeod Steve Blake

Danny Fortson Kendrick Perkins TJ Ford

Darko Milicic Kevin Burleson Travis Diener

Darrell Armstrong Kirk Hinrich Travis Outlaw

David West Lawrence Roberts Uros Slokar

Derek Anderson Leandro Barbosa Vince Carter

Desmond Mason Luke Ridnour Vitaly Potapenko

Devin Brown Luke Walton Zarko Cabarkapa

Dijon Thompson Maciej Lampe Zoran Planinic

Dikembe Mutombo Malik Rose

Dirk Nowitzki Marc Jackson

Donta Smith Martynas Andriuskevicius

Dwayne Jones Matt Bonner

Earl Boykins Matt Carroll

Eddie Basden Maurice Taylor

By newkid

August 25, 2006 03:20 PM | Link to this

MM, thanks. How could I have forgotten about ‘fo-fo-fo’ Mo.

When I think of dominant big men, I think of guys who give their team an immediate and realistic chance at winning a championship regardless of the colors of the uniform. For example, Shaq gives you a chance to win it all whether he’s in LA, Miami, or Atlanta. So does Wilt, Kareem, and others of that ilk. You build models AROUND these guys.

I don’t believe Laimbeer, Parish and others of that sort give a team real championship prospects by their mere presence. Laimbeer had success in Detroit largely because of the talents of Zeke, Dumars, and others, and because of Daly’s acumen in constructing a system that didn’t place unrealistic reliance on Laimbeer’s and Mahorn’s talents. Same with Parish in Boston. Love the guy, but take away the Bird man and McHale and you’ve gotta put Parish in a completely different model to have the sort of success he had in Boston. These guys you include as essential pieces in a model that is otherwise well constructed.

You’re right, maybe I was giving too much credit to JERRY Colangelo (dad) for the Phoenix model, and not enough to recently departed Bryan Colangelo (son). The point is though that they were proactive in establishing a ‘type of game’ they were gonna play, and assembling the pieces required to play that style (rather than hoping and praying for a ‘savoir’ around whom to build a model).

By A Thinking Fan

August 25, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

Boston: Bird, McHale were almost 7-footers themselves. The Bruise Bros benefit from a different type of calls in their hayday…

By Astro Joe

August 25, 2006 04:04 PM | Link to this

I’d argue that Frankenstein (McHale) who could scratch his knees without bending was a devastating low-post player. But you’re right about a title team needing a HOF type player (or 2). That’s one of the reasons why I tend to focus on long-term success in the form of home-court advantage in the playoffs. I have to say, that if the Hawks could enjoy the kind of run that Sacramento had during the C Web/Divac/Peja days or Dallas has had for the past 5-6 years, that I would gladly take that. Just get me to the top 8-10 teams in the league and I will be thrilled beyond belief. I don’t see any future HOF on this team, so I have no thoughts of a title.

By dale

August 25, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

If Billy is not to blame for these decisions he is making, which I believe most of us can agree have not improved our chances of winning. Then he is being set-up as the fall-guy by the owners.

I’ll be honest with all of you, I want to see this ownership group gone, and I believe popular opinion and an empty Phillips Arena can play a huge role in kicking these bums out of town!!

In the words of my favorite local sports radio call-in personality; ‘Mel from Decatur’: “we don’t need no losers, we need some winners”

Guys I’m sick of losing. I’ve been in Atlanta since 79’, back when Hubie Brown was the coach, back when we had a good team, and a large fan base. Watching another good young player leave for nothing is a shame. I mean the season hasn’t even started and were talking about our chances of landing a top 3 lottery pick next year, that’s just sad.

Anyway, back to Billy Knight. Ray, your Billy needs to feed his family line is absurd. Billy Knight is a millionaire, he can quit his job today and I think he’d be okay for few days. The way he handled our draft pick this year made it obvious to me that he dosen’t know what he is doing. It’s nothing personal, it’s just business, Billy needs to leave.

By honest_abe

August 25, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

mchale was one of the most underrated players in his generation… man could ball! “up and under” yeah!!!

not to be negative but i think one thing most of us fans that watched the majority of games have failed to realize is that every nba team (except the bottom dwellers) came into each game against the hawks lethargic and completely unfocused. that’s why if you noticed against the better teams the hawks would get out to a huge lead and then when teams woke up they’d either kill us in the 2nd half or the 4th quarter. sometimes the hawks were able to leverage the momentum gained at the beginning of the game until the end.(upsets against spurs and pistons) but if you noticed they had a horrendous time against horrible teams such as the raptors and bobcats who came into the game with much more energy. my point being. although the hawks won 26 games a lot of those wins can be attributed to the opponent taking them lightly. this year, i think hawks will get off to a nice start, considering most teams will still take the them lightly but once teams realize the hawks have a decent team they’ll fall short of the 40 win mark.

By honest_abe

August 25, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

phillips has been empty since the damn building was built!

By Steve B.

August 25, 2006 05:17 PM | Link to this

Dale, quick question. If you had it your way with the same retraints(money wise) in place who would you have drafted in 06? Since I know your going to go with A gaurd what would you have done about our need for A big?

By Bertie

August 25, 2006 09:11 PM | Link to this

Sekou, your next blog should be titled “Getting Nothing In Return”.

By billy

August 25, 2006 09:17 PM | Link to this

READ THIS FROM LEVENSON - BUY BEFORE 9/1!!

Since I became an owner, I have from time to time checked RealGM and Hawksquawk to get a sense of the thoughts of our most dedicated fans. In the past several weeks, I have closely read your comments on the Joe Johnson trade and the conflict within our ownership group. I was struck by your passion for the Hawks. It’s that passion that we desparately need as we build this young team. Over the past year, several of you have chatted about meeting at a game and I would love to assist in making this possibe. So I’ve arranged the following:

Between now and September 1st you can purchase lower level tickets to the Hawks game on November 10th vs. the LA Clippers — for only $10 each! These seats are normally $55! Plus, I will choose two of you that purchase these tickets to sit with me in my floor seats and watch the Hawks Rise Up and beat the Clippers!

Here is how to take advantage of this special offer. Click on the link below and type in the word owner in the “Enter Special Offer Code or Password” box and order your tickets to this game.

http://www.ticketmaster.com/event/0E003B10EA794692?artistid=805898&major catid=10004&minorcatid=7

Look forward to meeting you at the game and an exciting season ahead.

Sincerely, Bruce Levenson

By doc

August 25, 2006 10:34 PM | Link to this

checked out the web site for tix and it doesnt exist any longer. must have been a run on them or never existed.

By A Thinking Fan

August 25, 2006 11:00 PM | Link to this

Comments on the Hawks: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AqMqKvLyE3MPa9X7vft5vXa8vLYF?slug=cnnsi-howtohelpthehaw&prov=cnnsi&type=lgns

By mountain_jim

August 26, 2006 12:09 AM | Link to this

Hey billy and doc that announcement/thread was from last year, some one must have posted to bring an old topic back up and I am guessing you missed the old thread date.

By reese

August 26, 2006 12:24 AM | Link to this

Doc, great questions above. I would only add will this team sign a couple of more players to ensure that we have the 15 man roster. I’m sure that there is some 7’0 young shot blocker somewhere in the world that can spend some time in the NBDL for the hawks before coming up to help the varsity team.

Newkid, nice subtle hint that the media reading the blog should pose those questions to the owners.

Also, newkid, wasn’t moses malone statement 4 - 5 - 4 as in 4 wins 5 wins 4 wins to get the championship.

So it seems from reading above that the common theme of the championship teams is that they had a combination of future all stars and each team had a competent big man that allowed them to be a well balanced team.

Detroit had hall of famers Isaiah and dumars as well as big men Lambier/salley

Chicago had hall of famers Jordan and Pippen as well as big men horace grant/bill cartwright then longley (who avg more than 1 block shot for a season)

Houston had hall of famer Olajuwon who along with Sampson were the big men

Sixers had hall of famers Dr J and moses malone as well as shot blocker caldwell jones and moses as big men.

The lakers had hall of famers Magic/kareem and I don’t know if worthy is a hall of famer but he should be. The 2nd time around they had future hall of famers kobe and shaq.

Boston had hall of famer Bird who was 6’10 as well as 6’11 mchale and 7’0 parish

San Antonio had hall of famer david robinson and future hall of famer Tim duncan.

Zaza is nice but he is not the shot blocker/intimidator that is needed. He needs a compliment.

By ray

August 26, 2006 01:57 AM | Link to this

Dale. I said absolutely nothing about Billy Knight feeding his family. That was Doc. So take issue with him if you please. What I did do was ask you what Billy Knight’s departure would do for us, especially considering the fact that it’s very clear that ownership is unwilling to spend money right now. Did you not agree with Ando that the owners are not 100% committed to winning? Another GM may make better decisions (or worse), but I repeat: if the owners won’t ante up, how much better can it get regardless of who the GM is? Improving the situation starts at the very top: the owners. Either they start shelling out the money for the talent or they will continue to hold the team back. In that case, they gotta go. If only that were so easily done.

Another thing. People are talking about next year’s draft already because we have not, nor do we seem like we’re going to improve via trade or free agency. Also, many people have already trashed this season, so next year’s draft is the next topic. Is this sad? Yeah definitely, but it’s no sadder than the fact that you have the nerve to call other people dumb when you can’t even read the posts close enough to tell who said what. As for your other points, I can’t argue much ‘cause I’m sick of losing too. I can’t state enough times how uneasy I feel around draft time with Billy at the helm. That’s all I’m going to say about that.

By ray

August 26, 2006 02:07 AM | Link to this

The more I think about it, the more absurd it is to suggest that Knight quit his job. Who’s going to do something like that unless they are completely, totally fed up with their work situation or got a better job offer? Besides, most GMs don’t think they’re doing a bad job…until they get that pink slip. I think the only way this happens with Knight is if Belkin wins ownership or the AS somehow changes their collective direction and decide to go with new management as well. I’m not holding my breath..

By doc

August 26, 2006 07:52 AM | Link to this

yeah ray i said it. i also asked it in a question to dale or anyone else that has similar suggestions to bk but i dont think i got a response nor did you since he directed his response to you. finally, i suggested that dale not get his nose out of joint because we all behave like he does from time to time. you are right though because i dont think he read the points at to deep a level he didnt even aim the arrow at the right person. kind of reminds me of the theme that some cant get; it is not about the gm it is about the owners.

ultimately though, in part, it seems like you agree, you dont necessarily quit your job out of principle as a first reaction. even people making a million dollars a year think they must be doing something right to deserve it, the family enjoys what is provided and maybe he really enjoys what he is doing even if it isnt the perfect job. ultimately, if you asked them, all gm’s know that they will get fired so it is their job to continue to make the decisions that will keep their jobs as long as they can.

dale, really open your eyes and look at how elgin baylor survived to become smart when he finally got the go ahead from his owner to spend the money. hate to say it but it is a lot harder for a black man to get the job especially if he disses the man. if you look the best way to black ball yourself is to make noise in the nba, white or black. different sport and topic but look at what happened to gumbel this week when he spoke what many have quietly ignored.

yeah, i am sick of the losing too. however i am willling to allow this team to decide its own fate before i say they cant do it. i am excited to see if they can continue to grow. i dont have to live with the notion that if they do well then i cant enjoy them because i was wrong about them.

do i think there are holes? yes. simple, it is a lack of true depth it big. i am not fooling myself but we have two that can play there now and maybe sheldon. personally, i would have liked to have gotten two vets as bigs to go with zaza and foye or roy to insert as punches as they grew alongside the others, but it wasnt mine to spend nor really billy’s, i bet. i imagine they said billy this is how much you can spend now how can we balance the team. doesnt your boss do that if you are smart enough or competent enpugh to have the responsibility? i guess i might have played it out similar under the circumstances gotten sheldon then the point that has experience in the league and a big on the budget. come on dale, see it man. my team that i liked last year was phoenix and they ran into similar probs as they lost amare and thomas but they were terribly exciting to watch, the theme of david against the big boys is a classic. i can buy that one for my hawks this year if they work hard and continue to develop.

i want to see if this rendition of the hawks can improve and do they continue to play hard like they did last year. you know what if they do they get my respect again this year just like they did last. is all the talent there to be the best? no, but you know you are fooling yourselves if you think all the themes in sports is about that and only about winning it all and if you think it is it is probably becuae you are a loser in your own life and subliminally trying to make up for it to boost your own confidence rather than enjoy the team for what it is. a part of life is about doing the best you can no matter the circumstances and not quittting, kind of like basketball, maybe.

go hawks!

fire aol for giving us the spirit. oh yeah, it was their money too.

By doc

August 26, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

sekou, nice job on the article. it sounds like you are left to ask the questions then extrapolate with comments in the media or answered yourself. seems like the beat writer should have a few more opportunities to connect with the people that make decisions than you are allowed. just dont understand why this organization is so reserved in its connection to its fans and the media that serves to present the information.

By billy

August 26, 2006 12:17 PM | Link to this

My bad, guys.

By doc

August 26, 2006 12:22 PM | Link to this

billy, a dollar short and a year late. cool bro, good try though.

By mykhalc

August 26, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

SS, nice Q&A article….and i echo doc’s last post on the organization’s accessibility. maybe ONE DAY for a lot of things concerning this organization??!! but no matter what…GO HAWKS!!

By ray

August 27, 2006 12:25 AM | Link to this

Doc, I do agree with a lot of what you said. I maintain that I’m not in agreement with all of the moves that have been made, but don’t see the point in dwelling on all of that, screw it. And like you and many others, I want to see what our team will do. I recognize the problems we have and that they will hurt the team throughout the season. It will mean a good deal of losses. But why concentrate on the losses? Hell, they haven’t even happened yet. I support the team and coaches. Unless of course, the coach screws it up, then I can get p** at him : ). Or players give half-hearted efforts. It may be that the very players drafted the last few years (one or more) prove me very wrong. They may be some of the ones contributing to bringing us a successfully competitive team. Of course, there will be additions and subtractions along the way. That’s how it is in this business, you do what you must to keep up. Hopefully during the course of this season, our top level (ownership, and then management) will accept, adopt, and apply this doctrine. One can only hope.

By reese

August 27, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

Joe Johnson finally had the type of game that demonstrated that he could excel on both the offensive and defensive ends.

I know that he was being considered as a role player, but it was time for him to step up and let someone else be the role player.

Australia started out strong for the first quarter and maybe 2 minutes into the 2nd quarter.

Joe was inserted into the game and he was hitting the 3pt shot, the mid range shot and layups. Finally, he demonstrated that he is capable of bringing the ball down court to push the tempo.

Hopefully, he will continue to push the ball up court during the tournament and transition that into the season. In other words, he will consistently demonstrate that he can use some the traits he developed while playing the point last year.

He and Speedy’s dribbling abilities will compensate for the lack of dribbling by the Josh’s and allow this team to fast break more.

By doc

August 27, 2006 04:08 PM | Link to this

reese, great points about jj. i have long hoped that last year of playing “point” will allow jj to really step up into his true power and play a type of game few are able to play. i imagine you have read my take many times that he is developing the type of game that dwayne wade can play and very few others, where sometimes the team has to get out of his way to let him take it to another level. it is a challenge that will be interseting to watch and see where his comfort zone is.

i can make an analogy to the game of golf where a player has the game but either can feel comfortable going low or because he is unable to feel comfortable stays with what is comfortable to him, making pars. we will see this year if jj can put the big numbers up there when he is in the zone or whether he will back down and be a guy who regularly gets his points but isnt the difference maker i think he can become. it is a given that by playing with this group team usa that his chances to see how it is done and recreate it improves his ability to actually do it when the bell rings this season.

By Astro Joe

August 27, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

Taking a step back a few days, I was disappointed by Al’s comments. But I was also disappointed by Al’s performance as a Hawk. I remember the game when he scored over 40 against us during his last year in Indy. He truly appeared to be ready to break out. I was excited when we landed him. BK turned a $1M 1-year contract for Stephen Jackson into a sign and trade deal with Indiana for Al. I thought it was a brilliant and creative move. But Al seemed to be missing something during his tenure here. Whatever that thing is that separates the perennial All-Star from the above average player. That thing that allows a player to be special 3 out of four games as opposed to decent in half of them. The thing that separates greatness from goodness. I never really saw fire in Al’s eyes. I never really saw him demonstrate on-court leadership. He talks a great game and is obviously a smart guy who has studied leaders in the game. I just don’t think that he has “it”. I never really thought about it until his comments about playing for a team that won 39 games over 2 seasons. Not that MJ or any other famous b-ball leader could have won 80 games with the roster, but I don’t think true leaders would have made such a statement about their previous team. Doesn’t he realize that he contributed to those 39 wins? When the team needed that big defensive stop at the end of a game, did he ever come up big? I can’t recall him playing with the reckless abandon of a guy like Wade (or Childress for that matter). I don’t recall him being particularly clutch like Robert Horry (or Ty Lue for that matter). I don’t recall him furious with every loss like Artest (or Salim for that matter). He is a nice player. A good player. But he is missing something. And I won’t miss him.

By mykhalc

August 27, 2006 07:58 PM | Link to this

AJ, my 8/24 5:22pm post pretty much echoes your last post. so i hear ya!! and it leads me to recall what MICHAEL IRVIN said once about becoming ‘THE GUY’!! to paraphase, he said very few cats can make the transition from the NO.2 guy to the NO.1. he said it’s just NOT as easy as the NO.2’s think. tho many belief they can. the cat that can be/is that kind of player has the ‘it’ in which you were speaking of. IRVIN was speaking of this transition specifically and used ALVIN HARPER as an example when he left DALLAS to become the NO.1 for some team (???? can’t recall) locally we can look at PEERLESS PRICE as an example. i think AL definitely falls into that category. and like i said earlier, AL is a GOOD player…no more…no less!!! and i definitely didn’t like his outgoing remarks. tho SEKOU’s article did temper it a bit for me. now JJ has the ‘it’!!!! and that’s why i will never think we over-paid to get him. ‘cause when players have that ‘it’, along with the other things you look for (making teammates better, off-the-court ways, etc), you do whatever it takes to get them. AND YES there are other players that have that ‘it’ but don’t bring the other intangibles to the table. and like REESE said earlier, JJ is showing even more of the goods as he plays on the team with some of the best talent out there!!! i can’t wait to see how he brings his new and improved game and leadership to the hawks this year!!

By mykhalc

August 27, 2006 08:02 PM | Link to this

need to proof-read better….

shoulda read….tho many believe they can…

By reese

August 27, 2006 09:00 PM | Link to this

Yes Doc, I have seen your post regarding JJ becoming a Dwayne Wade type of player. Although I agree that Al’s statements are ture, I definitely agree with you, Astro joe and Mykhalc about being happy that Al is no longer on the team.

Your golf analogy, Astro Joe’s playing with wreckless abandon and mykhalc’s Michael Irvin quote is the same as my long standing request to acquire more players who play with more intensity on both the offensive and defensive end.

Thats why I campaigned last year to trade Al before the trade deadline and bring in Artest and Francis. Although, several people did not like the off the court issues with those players, I wanted the younger hawks to see the type of intensity that they needed to bring every night.

Similar players like McGrady, Bryant, garnett, wade, lebron and carmello were not available so I used Artest and Francis as players who were available and demonstrated the intensity trait.

My other example was the need to have a big shot blocker in practice so that the young players would know that if they drove weakly to the basket, they would see their shot going into the bleachers.

Additionally, having a shot blocker in practice allows the young players to learn how to adjust their shots, manuever their body, use the backboard or rim as shields from the shot blocker. Why do you think that JJ uses that floater in the lane, performs reverse layups and can finish with either hand. He got tired of Marion and Amare blocking his shot in practice.

I also hope that JJ sees that the big 3 (wade,james,anthony) are making mistakes but still keep up the intensity and try again.

Also, I hope that Marvin, Josh smith and josh childress are watching JJ play with players who are basically their size and they are winning.

The formula is that, they must block shots like lebron, wade and anthony; they must go strong to the basket and be able to finisht with either hand; they must learn that they don’t have to dunk every shot, but they must be willing to try to dunk when a key basket is needed; they must make their freethrows and that even goes for the big 3.

By Ken Strickland

August 27, 2006 10:11 PM | Link to this

Greetings DOC,REESE,MYKHALC,ASTRO JOE, and all of the other positive thinking Hawk fans out there. I guess we have formed a group as far as our opinion of AL. I don’t think his frustration was caused as much from losing as it was from having to deal with the added pressures of being the captain, leader and motivator. Like you said, he found out the hard way, he didn’t have it. The primary reason he wanted to leave Indy in the first place was so he could become the primary go to guy. Last yr he seemed to have difficulty being the #2 go to guy, behind JJ. Trading AL & Edwards saved us enough $$ to sign Speedy and Wright, plus we got an 07 1st rd pick. I am not dissappointed with this team at all. Can’t wait for the season to start.

By ray

August 27, 2006 11:33 PM | Link to this

Agreed, Joe. I see others agree with this opinion on Harrington. As I said before, I never thought he was the guy to build around. He wanted to be that guy, but like Joe said, he doesn’t have that intangible. He’s not the guy who can put a team on his back on any given night whenever it’s necessary. I have much respect for his game and abilities, but he’s not the team leader he thought he could be or the one we needed. No big deal, we know who it is now. As it is, and I’m not known for making bold predictions, I still think Granger will eclipse him at some point as a better all-around player. But we’re going to hate having to deal with him all year long, trust me. And he will be looking to score big on us. Ya hear that Josh, Marvin, and Chill? Y’all better buckle down for this one…

Joe is definitely showing some killer instinct in the World tournaments. The way he was talking in interviews before the world games started was encouraging. He sounded like a very hungry guy who was aiming on making his mark large and deep, and bringing his team to another level. I have no doubts that he will be bringing it hard-core every night and look forward to him demanding the same from his teammates. Lead by example, be hardest on yourself, and expect the same of your peers. All marks of the true leader.

So are we going to sign L.Wright or what? NO MORE DELAYS. We need the veteran big body NOW. Unless of course somebody came up with a better idea and is pursuing that option. In which case it BETTER be a sure thing, ‘cause we can’t afford to lose another piece that will help (regardless of how much or how little, it’s still help) while chasing wild geese with a BB gun. Ya hear that Billy ol’ fella?

By mykhalc

August 28, 2006 12:07 AM | Link to this

RAY, i was thinkin’ the same thing about how JJ was speakin’ up in the interviews…being a team spokesman and leader…especially in the last interview i read. you can tell he’s a man on a mission!! great for the US team and the HAWKS!!

regarding LO WRIGHT, i think is just a formality at this point. IMHO!! i don’t get the sense that BK is the kinda cat that’ll renege on a handshake deal. and hopefully LO WRIGHT is not either!!??? i do think he’ll provide some much needed depth to the front court!!