Hawks

By Aaron

August 14, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Sekou, a fair assessment yet again.

It will be wasted on many here.

By Matt

August 14, 2006 04:25 PM | Link to this

Does Indiana want Al so bad they are willing to pay through the roof to get him?

We were told (kudos to you for reminding us of your earlier stance) that we could move Harrington for more during the off-season with a sign-and-trade, rather than try and ship him to a contender during the season. Since it’s obvious we aren’t going to get more than a pick from Indiana, can we declare the decision to not trade Al a mistake?

Or was it just that we couldn’t get anything for him? I would actually believe that.

-matt Hotlanta Hawks Blog

By mountain_jim

August 14, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

“before it became obvious that the Hawks’ ownership issues (and I’m done letting anyone tell me they have nothing to do with the day-to-day operations) would dictate every move, big and small, the team makes.”

Which is why I have wished on several recent blogs that you or someone at AJC would try to get an interview with BK and ownership to try and determine just how their situation (beyond the court contract restriction) is affecting BK’s ability to make trades and the Al deal.

I realize they would want to keep their internal operations to themselves, but that’s still the kind of journalism/reportage which would provide answers that imho the fans who are paying for seats to watch this franchise product deserve some knowledge of.

Bottom line - the Spirit’s group’s bad decisions and bad lawyers have hurt this franchise this offseason, the question if how and how much….

By Marcus

August 14, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

I do not know how so many people can complain about a deal that gets us a 1st rounder, for a guy we had no intention of retaining? Maybe some fans are upset that BK didn’t get back some garbage contracts? The only thing we were going to get for Al would have been one or two overpaid backup’s. Save the money Billy, so we can back a Brinks truck up to the door of Dwight Howard.

By J. Shuttlesworth

August 14, 2006 04:48 PM | Link to this

Getting a draft pick is the right move, given the circumstances.

I just wonder what they would have gotten if they were operating with a real NBA owner and an NBA budget. If they were, I feel as though they would have gotten a player with crap contract along with a draft pick and an additional asset.

Because of the fact that the team couldn’t take on contracts (financially and legally), they could only do a deal with Indiana (because of the trade exception) and were not able to reap the benefits of a bidding war. In the end, Indiana held the cards, and Atlanta had to do business with them on their terms.

By Stinky Sullivan

August 14, 2006 04:50 PM | Link to this

NBA Basketball. The most boring, water-downed game in all of professional sports. With poster boys like Kobe Bryant and Alan Iverson, how can this still be called a team sport?

By Jambazy

August 14, 2006 04:53 PM | Link to this

I for one am glad we are not getting handcuffed with any garbage players just to have a ‘trade’. If we can get a first rounder for Al(who has been a phenomenal hawk) then maybe we can get one of those pg’s everyone has been crying about, or maybe another swinger. I just wish the owners would get their act together sometime soon. That is the main thing anyone thinks of when they speak of the hawks (howz that situation going?). With all that said, I hope to see a better product on the floor this year. BK better be right on this AH trade….thats a lot of points.

By Glenn

August 14, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

From what I understand up to eight teams are interested in Harrington . Is a protected first the best we can get ? I don’t understand ? So Big Al got a new agent to get the Hawks to accept less in return for him in a sign & trade with the Pacers ? If Al Harrington could have just signed with anyone like Ben Wallace why didn’t he ? Not to mention why would Al Harringtons new agent say ” The quality of the deal is the most important element, We will review & exhaust all meaningful options until a fair deal is reached ” Why would he not say , “Hey Big Al will sign with who ever he wants & if you get something great , If not tough the Pistons got nothing for Ben Wallace didn’t they ? Be glad you got a 2014 2nd round pick .

By Marcus

August 14, 2006 04:54 PM | Link to this

Stinky… If you don’t like the NBA. Post on a “Crickets” blog.

By Russ

August 14, 2006 05:03 PM | Link to this

How funny we get a future 1st rounder not even protected for a 19/7 player. Well the sewer continues to stink!

By Rodger

August 14, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

Billy Knight couldn’t get $4 for a cup of coffee at Starbucks, much less a reasonable trade.

By mountain_jim

August 14, 2006 05:20 PM | Link to this

You can’t blame BK for this deal without knowing what financial limitations ATL Spirit’s bad-lawyered, likely lame-duck ownership status placed on his ability to deal. (Reread Sekou’s post above)

By G-Money

August 14, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

Obviously, some bloggers fail to read the whole blog and particularly all of Sekou’s articles and blogs. Or perhaps some are so blinded by the height of BK’s fro that they can’t see the real deal. How could anyone think that BK would/could come out and say I’m handcuffed by my boss. For the 90% on this blog who work for someone else, ask yourself this question. Could you in fact go public about a situation on your job that mgmt does not want made public??? Get a grip people.

I have stated before and continue to state that given the problems that the Hawks ownership has, this is probably the best we can do. Once the smoke clears on the ownership, whoever owns the Hawks will have a TON to work with for 2007-2008. In the meantime, BK is putting together a competitive squad that should bring fans to the arena around Jan/Feb once see that the team does win nearly 50% of it’s games and usually those wins are at home. For those of you who will never spend a dime watching the Hawks regardless, I don’t think ownership or BK really give a cr*p about your “hater-ation.” Nonetheless, it adds spice to the blog.

By mountain_jim

August 14, 2006 06:11 PM | Link to this

Regarding BK, I neglected to mention above that you can hold (and some certainly have held) BK responsible for not trading Al at the deadline last year (and Sekou addressed that issue above as well), given the situation we have now, but unlike the more presient on this blog I was not expecting the ownership buy-out to blow up like it did, perhaps BK was not either, and felt that he could do better now. Oh well.

I am not BK lover or hater, but he has put the Hawks in a relatively good position going forward (for whoever owns them), and I am optimistic and think 40 wins is possible for this team next year, but I was more optimistic about possible playoffs while I had hopes that Al would bring back more in an S&T than he apparently has.

By Ken Strickland

August 14, 2006 06:16 PM | Link to this

G-MONEY, MOUNTAIN JIM, tell it like it is fellas. You know what else is really crazy about this ownership mess. Think of the millions of dollars that have been paid, and will continue to be paid, by Hawks ownership to their opposing attorneys. These fools(owners)came together to buy 2 sports franchises and are now cannibalizing these teams operating resources in order to fund an ego driven lawsuit. Under the circumstances, instead of complaining about what we shoulda, coulda gotten in the S&T, just be thankful we are getting something at all. Detroit got nothing for Wallace, and Indy only got a 1yr exemption for Paja. Are those of you, who are bashing BK for not getting what you want out of the S&T, going to call Dumars and Walsh stupid and incompetent GMs also?

By jhan

August 14, 2006 06:22 PM | Link to this

Last year Dumars got rid of Darko, Arroyo & Ben Wallace. He has a 2007 1st round pick to show for it.

By Steve B.

August 14, 2006 06:27 PM | Link to this

Yo Stinky Baseball has Barry Bonds and Kenny Rodgers. Football has Brett Farve, M.Clarett and T.O., so why exactly are you bashing the NBA.

By Dale

August 14, 2006 06:45 PM | Link to this

I’ll be gentle I promise. You people have resorted to highlighting a poor decision by another GM (Joe Dumars) to justify the poor decision by our GM.
Joe Dumars didn’t trade Ben Wallace last year because Detroit was arguably the best team in the NBA last year. Dumars then didn’t resign Ben Wallace because of his age and money Ben Wallace was demanding. Joe took a chance, because his team had a shot at winning the whole thing last year, we can’t say that for the Hawks.

G-Money, you must not be a long time Hawks fan. I been hearing this junk about “just wait were going to have money in two years, and then you’ll see” for a long time. Please man give me a break with that crap.

Sekou, I understand your position, and I respect the fact that you often must stay pretty neutral with your comments, but to shoot this spin about at least we got something, just ain’t good enough. Especially with the history of this team.

Bottom line is Al Harrington should have been traded last year. A 19/7 guy, with 1 year remainging on his contract is very attractive to alot of teams.

I can go on and on but I don’t want to bore anybody. This is simply just another bad move by a bad organization, run by bad people.

It just amazes me that with all the money we have and the high lottery pick we had, that this is the best we could do. I don’t believe we will see the playoffs for several years to come. Bummer

By lacsho

August 14, 2006 06:49 PM | Link to this

Greetings all I’m still here, but laying low in the shadows. I see the same arguments and statements being recycled. I’m waiting for training camp or a new point to argue.

I disagree with Sekou on the sign and trade. The two players that were picked up this summer are good pieces, but we could have gotten that, perhaps from another team through a sign and trade with AL. There are teams lining up trying to get in the Al Harrington trade circus. I just think deals could’ve been worked out. I don’t know the owner financial situation, but I do know we could have gotten the same caliber player or players through a sign and trade. Granted some teams are left holding the bag, but if you want to deal, a deal can get done. There were a lot of off season movement this summer. You cannot tell me we couldn’t have gotten a decent big, or a legit point guard. I like Speedy, but the NBA has a lot of Speedys’ in the league same goes with L Wright. Lastly, the majority other teams couldn’t sign Al outright, so 90% of the teams were offering someone of Speedys’ and L Wrights caliber.

I still like our team, but some of the moves are very suspect. I’ve made it through the past horrible seasons, now that I see the sun starting to veer its head out; I’m going to ride this thing out to the playoffs… Reminds me of that song from the 70’s yes my age is starting to show. The chorus is,” I can see clearly now that the rain is gone; I can see all of the obstacles in my way. It’s going to be a bright, bright, bright sunshiny day….. And I’m gone

By EdoRiver

August 14, 2006 06:50 PM | Link to this

Mountain jim, G-money, Ken Strickland, I take the clothes pin off my nose for you. The complainers stink up this blog with nothing useful to say.

By Dale

August 14, 2006 06:55 PM | Link to this

Ken, that 7.5 million dollar trade exemption inabled the Pacers to sign Al Harrington without trading any of their core players. I would not call that incompetence.

By roan st

August 14, 2006 06:59 PM | Link to this

What deals could have been worked out? You folks have no damn idea what was available at the trade deadline so its a moot point to discuss. Besides what bk is doing with the salary cap will allow us more flexibility in signing our own future stars( e.g. jsmith and marvin williams). The only thing ” other teams” have been offering is salary cap hell that they want to dump on us. Bk is staying the course which is exactly what he should be doing.

By Steve B.

August 14, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

Dale you gotta remember what teams were willing to give up for Al. Den. Watson and Nene, Theirs no wat Atl or any other team should have given Nene 60 million. No one wants a guy who makes 5 mil and can’t beat out Boykins to be the back-up, THE BACK-UP. We didn’t want anything on NY’s roster. We didn’t want anything on G.S roster out side of Ellis and A pick. If the Lakers where willing to part with Bynum you have A point but they were not willing. The players other teams where willing to give up we didn’t want. Every one highlights Joe Dumars because he got hailed as A great Gm after Det. won it’s championship. All Gm’s even good ones make moves their fans don’t aprove of Darko at #2 over Anthony, Bosh, and Wade. Not getting more for a former #2 pick. Remeber Dale BK got Al for nothing (Stephen Jackson)and Al could have just walked if he wanted to so give A little credit where credits due( no matter how little).

By Dale

August 14, 2006 07:08 PM | Link to this

I keep trying to leave this blog tonight, but these comments are ridiculous. Roan St Are you kidding me? Working with the salary cap to sign JSmith and MWilliams? That is the dumbest thing I’ve heard on this blog ever! Jsmith won’t be a free agent for 3 more years, Marvin won’t be a free agent for 4 more years. Hell, we don’t even know what type of player Marvin is going to be. I do know that some teams have made great deals this year, Denver picked-up JR Smith for Howard Eisley, Portland picked-up Maglore for Steve Blake and Brian Skinner. So please man think before you blog!

By lacsho

August 14, 2006 07:21 PM | Link to this

Roan I’m not going to argue with you over deals that should have/could have been made, but you my friend are lost. Please read Dales comments on Josh and Marvin. You contradict yourself in your own argument. First you say know one know’s what was being offered, then you say the only players other teams were offering is salary cap hell. Which one is it? So I guess every trade made this offseason not pertaining to the Hawks was a bust or salary cap hell?

Get out of the sun and go get a beer, I think you need to calm down. I’ll charge this one to the game.

By roan st

August 14, 2006 07:29 PM | Link to this

Dale what rock did you crawl from under. Many of the stars from the 2003 class have signed long term contracts this summer( e.g.- d. wade , LJmames, Anthony, etc.) Smart teams lock up their young talent before it gets on the market. Josh will be in line for a contract extension next summer. Marvin will be in line for an extension in the summer of 2008. Maybe you should be the one that thinks “before you blog”!

By lacsho

August 14, 2006 07:36 PM | Link to this

So now I guess your saying Josh and Marvin are equal to Carmello,Wade, and Lebron. Hell to the naw man!!!!!

By roan st

August 14, 2006 07:46 PM | Link to this

No thats not what I’m saying at all. If we want to keep them both we will need to lock them up long term and that will cost cosiderable cash. Whats so freakin hard to figure out about that. Would you rather lose one of them because of dead weight salary cap issues. NO! Look around the league at teams in dire straits because of salary cap problems. We don’t have that problem and that is a good thing.

By Ken Strickland

August 14, 2006 08:04 PM | Link to this

DALE, maybe I didn’t make myself clear in my last post. I wasn’t criticizing Dumars or Walsh for any of their moves. I only mentioned them as an example that even highly regarded GMs make questionable decisions. And they don’t have a boat load of egotistical, moronic, half broke owners to contend with. You also mentioned that some of us are using the bad decisions of other GMs to justify the bad decision of BK. Well, you seem to be ignoring that other reputable GMs make bad decisions so you can justify bashing BK. You are trying to create a difference between six and half a dozen. You can’t have it both ways.

By Dale

August 14, 2006 08:27 PM | Link to this

Ken, you used the word incompetence. Walsh and Dumars have been to the NBA finals. BK hasn’t even sniffed the playoffs.

Roan, Marvin is signed thru 2010, JSmith is signed through 2009. Ain’t neither showed me that they are worth top money. Wade, Bosh, Mello, and James are worth top money, that was a horrible comparison you came up with!

Steve B I would take Watson over any point guard we have on this roster. He’s big, tough defender that can run a team. Denver got two solid players for him (Ricky Evans, Ruben Patterson) two players that I would love to have on this team.

You fans remind me of when I was a child, picking cotton in south Georgia. Every year the “man” would tell us, if we picked a certain amount we would get a bonus. We would pick all day, with the snakes, burning-up, bent over, fingers just tore-up. Hell, we would go to school a half day, then go back out to the field. All the time braggin how we was gonna get that bonus. And every year we would pick more than our quota. Only to be told we came up short, try again next year.

By Ken Strickland

August 14, 2006 08:45 PM | Link to this

I don’t understand the how some of you can be so irrational. You laugh at, and often criticize, Isiah Thomas for handcuffing the Knicks with veteran contracts, which has them paying a luxury tax penality. Then you criticize BK for refusing to use our CAP to sign overpiced backups. THINK, look at how many teams wanted Harrington, but did not have the CAP space to offer a FA contract. They can only acquire him in a S&T if ATL helps them create CAP space by taking back their unwanted contract(s). I am not saying we are in the best shape we could be in, but we are in damn good shape talent wise and CAP wise.

By Dale

August 14, 2006 08:56 PM | Link to this

I respect the fact that some of you all want the Hawks to be financially conservative. But the last time I checked, out of the 16 playoffs teams last year, every team except for the Bulls are over the salary cap.

By mountain_jim

August 14, 2006 09:01 PM | Link to this

Sekou update: http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/hawks/stories/0815hawks.html

By Steve B.

August 14, 2006 09:01 PM | Link to this

Dale you can have Watson( who could not beat out A.Miller or E.Boykins in Den. The Grizz didn’t want him either and they where in the mist of trading their starting point gaurd J.Williams). I’ll take S.Claxton and L.Wright over Watson and Nene who never would have played in an Atl uni.

By ray

August 14, 2006 09:13 PM | Link to this

Dale, that was a rather insulting way of putting things. So did you pick cotton because you had no choice or because you chose to? And how the hell is that similar to what fans choose to believe or have an opinion on? So some people don’t agree with your opinion. Seems to me like you haven’t learned much since your cotton-picking days, except that picking cotton is not profitable. By the way, what does this have to do with basketball again.

It would seem to me that flexibility in what little bit of finances exist would be a smart thing if you aren’t even sure what kind of players Josh and Marvin will be. That way, you can afford to sign free agents, make trades involving these young players if necessary, etc. Also, every team’s young players are a risk. If they turn out to be fantastic players, the gm will look like a genius. If not, then they’re a bust and the gm is an idiot. Better yet, a career-threatening or ending injury occurs, then what? It’s all a gamble, man. For example, right now Chris Paul is awesome…let’s hope he doesn’t buy a motorcycle..

If you want to stop seeing ridiculous comments on the blog, you could stop posting, ya know…that would be a start.

By mountain_jim

August 14, 2006 09:18 PM | Link to this

I was happy to hear that when talking to LA Billy was trying to get Bynum, though I don’t know how strong his offer after Al was.

That showed that some alternatives to this deal were being explored which would bring a player back, and a young potentially future great center to develop would have been a nice return for Al.

The fact that LA was not ready to deal Bynum is no surprise, and I don’t know enough about Mihm to know whether he + a pick would have been worth his rental cost either.

By ray

August 14, 2006 09:18 PM | Link to this

Dang, it looks like Donnie Walsh is trying to pull a bad one on us. If all we’re asking for is a pick…well, BK must be asking for a good one, like a non-lottery protected pick. I’m not sure as to why the Pacers are still balking. Somebody’s gonna blink, and I’m thinking it’s not gonna be BK this time. Let the circus begin…

By roan st

August 14, 2006 09:32 PM | Link to this

Josh smith is not signed thru 2009 and marvin is not signed thru 2010. Now your just making s** up. Players become restricted free agents after 4 years in the league.

By Dale

August 14, 2006 09:55 PM | Link to this

Ray, My point was that your optimism in this team is foolish. Stop falling for the we’ll have money next year line. Most clear thinking fans don’t care about the salary cap as long as the team is winning. When the Hawks make the playoffs then you can say something about flexability, until then who cares.

Roan St Marvin Williams contract is good through 2010, he is due to make 7mil. during the 09/10 season. Both JChill and JSmith will complete their contracts after the 08/09 season. Look it up. Roan, it’s okay man, so you made a really stupid comment, big deal.

Steve B, Comparing Watson to Speedy is like comparing apples to oranges. If you want instant offense Speedy is your man. If you want defense and solid point guard play than Watson is your man. As far as comparing Wright to Nene, I’m not sure you can. We haven’t really seen Nene due to injuries, but I’m sure we can agree that Nene has more upside.

By Steve B.

August 14, 2006 10:03 PM | Link to this

Dale my point is we would have never given Nene 60 mil. So the Al trade with Den would have been for Watson only in the end. I would rather have Speedy, Wright and A first round pick than just Watson. You can take hard sell on this and not admitt your wrong but BK made the right move on not sending Al to Den at the dead line.

By honest abe

August 14, 2006 10:15 PM | Link to this

LOL……….ROAN ST…PLEASE STOP ARGUING WITH HIM!!! cmon man…we all know dale comes on here with hiz crazy, asinine LIES! j. smith and m. williams ARE NOT SIGNED THROUGH 2009 AND 2010….

seriously dale WHAT are you smoking?

By Ken Strickland

August 14, 2006 10:16 PM | Link to this

DALE, we are advocates of intelligent spending, not conservative spending. We don’t want BK wasting $$$$ on stupid acquisitions like Nene or Magloire. Does paying Magloire 8M for 1yr off the bench, just because he’s physical and averaged 2-3 extra rebounds over Zaza, make sense? That’s not helping the teams future. Does paying Nene 60M, so we can have the privledge of taking him off Denvers IR and put him on ours, make sense? Come on Dale, it shouldn’t be that hard to acknowledge that some opinions make more sense than others.

By Steve B.

August 14, 2006 10:24 PM | Link to this

Dale I’ll help you, If you go to insidehoops.com, click salaries, then click players contracts it list every NBA team and all contacts the start and the finnish. The Hawks hold team options for Smith in 08 and for Marvin in 08 and 09. 2010 would take a new deal.No sense in you getting killed over bad info, Step your game up!

By reese

August 14, 2006 11:06 PM | Link to this

Dale, don’t try to reason with individuals who are willing to accept a draft pick for compensation.

Dale, I understood your analogy, but it is lost on those who love to fantasize on what we can get in the future. Even though that future never quite materializes like they imagined. To compensate, they lower their expectations.

I’ve listened to Breakfast with Bernie for about a year and he has repeatedly stated that BK is not under restrictions and he’s been given the authority to acquire the players he so chooses. Bernie leaves the hockey and basketball decisions up to the respective GMs.

I’ve listened to ownership repeatedly state that BK has the authority to acquire the players he desired and that BK has had to force them to stay the course.

I’ve listened to BK state that he is not going to spend money just for the sake of spending money.

So if Billy only receives a draft pick for harrington and edwards, it is not a surprise. Its consistent with his pattern of giving away players and getting future in return.

I’m not surprised, I’m just disappointed.

By ray

August 14, 2006 11:17 PM | Link to this

Nene has more upside? You just said that Smith and Marvin have shown you nothing to prove that they are even worth keeping. And they have shown some production. Nene has shown you what? No, really, what has he shown you? A few flashes of maybes and mights? Give me a break. And if we’d have gotten him, and he stayed on the IR, then we’d have an expensive bench bum (in street clothes no less) and next to NO money next year to spend on anybody. Not to mention the fact that nobody would be stupid enough to try and take him off our hands. No, your argument is contradictory as hell. We may not know what kind of player Marvin is for certain just yet, but at least we know he’ll be playing. As far as Watson goes, I like his game, but he’s obviously not as hot a commodity as you think. For one thing, he was traded along with Bryon Russell in a four-team trade, so don’t give me that crap about getting two solid players for him. The Nuggets were trying to plug holes, and Watson wasn’t good enough to stay in Denver (or at least didn’t fit their plans). Not even better than Boykins, who is a lot smaller. If you’re going to tell the story, tell it right, don’t frame it up to fit your argument. Oh, and do a head-to-head comparison to Claxton last season to see which has been more productive, back-up or not. You talk all this noise about not falling for “we’ll have money next year” yet you want to see money spent on an even less sure thing. MAYBE if we had more money to spend, then we could have spent it this off-season. So what’s your solution?

And by the way, the kind of “clear thinking fan” you’re describing is the kind who doesn’t understand that the future must always be kept in mind. Spending to win now is great if you have the money to spend (which we don’t) and you can win a championship in a year or two (which we can’t even if we signed far more expensive free agents this year). Instead, we have to put ourselves into a position where we can spend more freely. We won’t if we spend stupidly now. A “clearly thinking” fan will care a little more about the salary cap instead of wondering next year and the year after why we can’t afford to pay money to anybody worth signing.

Another thing you don’t understand. My optimism in this team has nothing to do with money, it has to do with the team itself. I am looking forward to seeing them play this season. I hope they do well and win. Obviously you don’t, which makes you what kind of fan? Oh yeah, a “clear thinking” one. Optimism is hope, hope is not foolish. I never said they’d win it all, I know they won’t, not this year, not next. I hope to see them do significantly better this season. I don’t see that as foolish. But we’ll probably never agree on this, even if they win more than they lose.

By Clyde

August 14, 2006 11:30 PM | Link to this

I would have rather had the first round pick in this years draft than next years. I agree wit Dale we should have traded all last year.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By ray

August 14, 2006 11:32 PM | Link to this

What a pair. I knew the harbingers of doom would return in spectacular fashion. LOL!! I can only speak for myself really, but I guess us dummy fans will just have to submit to the ultimate wisdom of Reese and Dale, seeing as how we are stuck in our fantasy world. Willing to accept a draft pick for compensation? Heyyyy, nobody told me this was being put to a vote! I thought the GM was making the decisions. Oh wait, we should have listened to the owners, they always tell us the truth. Brilliant, guys, brilliant.

By NumbaOneFan

August 14, 2006 11:32 PM | Link to this

Hey Ken and G Money…. Looks like the negative and ill informed buzzards are back looking for a carcass to pick over. I thought we had this whole negativity hating on the Hawks issue and Buhllshiit trade scenarios behinds us. Now were back on the Nene and Watson thing again. Folks…. get over it were shipping No Defense Al Harrington for a draft pick…. PERIOD !!!! It is the smart and right move to make and were not taking on any bloated, mega contracts for non performing no talent overpaid SCRUBS. Dale please don’t insult our intelligence with you Psycho Babble Buhllshiit, do your homework before you open up your pie hole spewing out negative and erroneous information. Isn’t there a book one can buy called National Basketball Association for dummies?

By reese

August 14, 2006 11:35 PM | Link to this

Ken, I see where you state that you are an advocate for intelligent spending and not conservative spending.

Wouldn’t it have been intelligent for the hawks to acquire a complimentary piece for Zaza. Specifically, a shot blocker. We still have not addressed that need. The acquisition of Wright takes up cap space that could have used for that need.

Now, for those who wanna say that shelden williams and solomon jones were the pieces that met that need, please understand the following.

1)College teams are allowed to play a true zone defense and players can camp out in the lane. Where as, the NBA has a rule where the defensive player cannot stay in the lane for more than 3 seconds.

2)Rookies will not get the benefit of calls.

3)NBA guards/forwards are better skilled at getting their shots off over players and at times jump higher than the big men trying to block their shots.

If the hawks are going to start the season with the current squad, then they need to get their subscription to NBA T.V. and watch the Sixers teams that played bobby jones and Dr J on the floor with Caldwell Jones or Darryl Dawkins. They rotated on defense with the best of them. Bobby Jones, Dr J, Darryl and Caldwell would average over a block per game.

Both Josh Childress and Marvin Williams will need to increase their intensity on the defensive end. They will need to rotate on defensive and alternate between attempting to block the shots down low (while the offensive player is attempting to bring the ball up) or up high ( while the player is attempting to release the ball or after the ball has been released).

It is frustrating to see them consistently just grab the player or let the player go by without legally trying to challenge the shot.

I wonder if these young players even know Bobby Jones?

I also wonder if the influence of Rick Mahorn and Greg Ballard has dictated the grab and hold defensive strategy last few hawks teams. Sekou any insight to this last question. Do they even practice shot blocking. I’m tired of opposing teams getting to shoot free throws early in the quarters because we have committed to many fouls.

This my fellow bloggers is analysis and trying to determine if we have truly addressed a need.

By ray

August 14, 2006 11:35 PM | Link to this

NumbaOneFan, did I not say this would happen? LOL! You know, I give Ando a lot of crap, but at least he makes good intelligent arguments. I actually feel somewhat compelled to review the argument carefully before responding. With some people, you just don’t have to. It will give you a headache anyway. And then there are those who will agree with negativity just for the sake of it being negativity…

By NumbaOneFan

August 14, 2006 11:44 PM | Link to this

Yeah Ray, you told me and I already knew it..LMAO. I can always count on you, Ken and G money to post the actual and factual truth with a true insight as to what the real issues are on this hawks team. I really get annoyed when ill advised and psycho babble buhllshiit is posted by some one overindulging on Remi Martin.. . I wonder what shoulda coulda trade scenario will pop up overnight.

By ray

August 14, 2006 11:48 PM | Link to this

WHO said that Solomon and Shelden met the low post defensive needs? WHO? You’re starting an argument for yourself, Reese. Anybody can see that the low post needs have not been met completely. After Magloire went to Portland, we got probably what was the best left over low post player we could get for the money. We’re past that already. If the deal with Harrington had been done already, maybe we could’ve signed Magloire, or Kandi Man, or somebody that meets your approval. But we didn’t and we couldn’t and Magloire would have left just like Rasheed Wallace did or demanded more money than he was worth. So we work with what we’ve got. Instead of p** and moaning about what might have been, can we move forward? Again, NOBODY said the players we acquired are the optimal answer to our needs. We did plug some guys into the gaps. However, since signing Wright was so bad, I have to ask: who would have been the complimentary shot-blocker you thought we should’ve signed?

By ray

August 14, 2006 11:49 PM | Link to this

Going to bed, see you fellas tomorrow.

By NumbaOneFan

August 14, 2006 11:54 PM | Link to this

Whew!!!!…. way to go Ray. I love it when the truth and reality smack someone in the face with a bang. Now that is what I call an intelligent and properly researched post with the facts clearly stated and right on the money. Thank you.

By mykhalc

August 15, 2006 12:10 AM | Link to this

yep ray, sometimes you just gotta let ‘em argue amongst themselves!!!LOL ‘cause the headache just ain’t worth. still laughin’ about the ‘harbingers of doom’ comment!!LOL

By reese

August 15, 2006 12:24 AM | Link to this

Ray, I’ve have brought up so many names in the past that I will just stick to those for now because its too late to go look up stats. But, I would set a criteria that the person would have to be a proven shot blocker and minimum would be 1 block shot per game average. In the past I’ve brought up Steven Hunter, Stromile Swift, David Harrison, Magloire and Chandler. I’d be willing to keep Edwards if we could get David Harrison from Indy. Another name that pops into mind is eddie griffen from the twolves.

I bet Jerome James blocks more shots that Lorenzon Wright and if he wasnt’ drunk he probably be a good player.

Again, its about complimentary players for JJ, Josh, Marvin and Zaza. Explain to me how Lorenzon is a stop gap or is he a friend of BK.

By reese

August 15, 2006 12:50 AM | Link to this

numbaonefan, if analyzing and wanting to truly fill a need is pyscho babble to you, then maybe that book NBA for dummies is what you need. By the way, those books really do help novices learn the nuances of a field of study.

numbaonefan, I’m not mad at you, nor do I wish to argue with you. I realize that we could put just about anyone on the floor and you would be happy. There is nothing wrong with that. We are just different level of fans.

By the way, Ray, Rasheed didn’t walk away from the Hawks. BK took it upon himself to trade him away because he did not feel that Rasheed would want to be on a team that was rebuilding. In other words, BK did not want to rebuild around Rasheed Wallace. You know, the guy who helped Detroit win a championship and I’m sure that he averages more than 1 block per game.

And if Marcus Camby was truly on the market, then he would have been a complimentary player as well. Oh I know, he makes too much money and would not be intelligent.

If BK has been telling us his plan since before the spirit group took over, if bk has told both the spirit group and bernie mullin his plans, and if all three groups have told us fans BKs plan, then I’m the one who should believe they are all lying.

It would seem to me that the conspiracy theory about the ownership mess is another opportunity for many to provide a reason to justify why needs have not been met.

But hey, its late and I think I’m going to pop the Movie Conspiracy Theory in the DVD and go to bed. Good night all.

By Ken Strickland

August 15, 2006 12:55 AM | Link to this

REESE, Josh Smith was 4th in blocked shots last yr and we were still bad defensively. There is more to playing DEF than blocking shots. Since you chose to reference Philly in an attempt to prove your point, I will do the same. How many shot blockers did Jordan and the Bulls have, while winning championships and dominating the NBA?

By reese

August 15, 2006 01:26 AM | Link to this

Ken Strickland, your interrupting my movie. Was that a trick question. If you look it up, The Lakers, Bulls, Pistons, Celtics, Rockets and Sixers had anywhere from 1 - 3 players on their rosters that average more than 1 block per game.

So why not give josh smith some help and lets just take baby steps and make it to the playoffs.

Now my questions back to you are how many times have the hawks had two players average above 20 points a game or how many times did they have a thirty point scorer. Don’t worry about answering any of those questions. The key is the last time they either, they made the playoffs.

Now, lets get another proven 20 point scorer to compliment JJ and lets get another proven 1.0 per game avg shot blocker to compliment Josh. Its not rocket science folks. Its just basketball basics.

By G Money

August 15, 2006 03:52 AM | Link to this

Hey NumbaOneFan, Dale who is this Reese dude? I’ve read his illogical blogs in the past but I am really having a hard time following his train of thought. I think we can all agree that the main goal of the Hawks this year is to improve significantly and contend for a playoff spot - any spot.

I did some research of my own. Denver, Cleveland, Indianapolis, NJ, Orl, LAC, Mil all made the playoffs with only one person averaging 1.0 blocks + per game. LAC, DEN, PHX, MIL all had only 1 person averaging 20+ pts per game. What the hell? Besides, just to talk about potential, Theo Ratliff was a premier shot blocker in this league before he had the knee problems. If you compare his ht and wt to that of Solomon Jones, I think you’ll find them to both be the same +/- 5lbs.

The pt that I’m making is that the Hawks have all they need to potentially make the playoffs this year. We all believe that they are way off from being contenders. However, regardless of all the crazy blogs recently posted, they are heading in the right direction. Their improvement may be more meteoric than most expect.

By CJ

August 15, 2006 06:17 AM | Link to this

I don’t see why everyone keeps complaining about coulda woulda trade scenarios. They are fans just like everyone else, they have paid for games. If BK was more astute and manages his credibility better, his trades wouldn’t be questioned so much. It’s strange that it happens EVERY time..I wish the Hawks would make a clean transaction for once. We know the ownership is bunk and the GM is their direct employee. This franchise needs an overhaul and we all know it.

By lacsho

August 15, 2006 07:45 AM | Link to this

The sad thing about this blog is anyone who questions BK is negative. Now that’s bullsht. Who are some of you to question a fans loyalty? I guess some of you believe anything anyones tells you. I know I’m a diehard fan, and I know as a fan I have the right to question suspect moves. Just because I question certain moves doesn’t mean I’m any less of a fan. I won’t get into politics, but I bet some of you said the samething about Bush. Myself I choose to live in reality, and see things for what they are, not what I hope for in the distant future. Sometimes reality is a b***, but it is what it is. It takes all kinds to make the world go round, everyone doesn’t have to dress a like and think a like. I believe in positive thinking, but I also believe if you make a bad move you should be held accountable for your actions. With that being said BK has made some good and bad moves. I just feel that maybe he could have did more good, that’s all. * I guess I’m a bad American because I question the Presidents suspect moves too. But wait a minute I did fight for my country during Dessert Storm!!!!**

By Jim

August 15, 2006 08:39 AM | Link to this

I’m the 1st to admit that BK is not a likeable dude. I wish we had a more charismatic face for the franchise, one that went out of his way to do and say the right thing. He’s surly and difficult and rarely gives a decent interview. I think this affects the Hawks negatively. However, he is an astute basketball guy and has the foresight/wisdom not to put our franchise in the terrible position of BEGGING for other teams free agents in sign and trade efforts. I like Harrington, but he is merely and above average player. Its not amazing skills that other teams covet in him. Its a chance to dump horrific contracts in an effort to get a solid player with a decent contract. If our options are Murphy + 1st rounder, or Watson +_1st rounder, or Nene at $60 mil + 1st rounder, or any deal even hinted at on this blog of any crediblity, then I’d rather let Al walk for nothing. The fact that Indiana wrangled a trade exception while avoiding a TERRIBLE Peja contract was fantastic by Donnie Walsh. It allowed for a win win situation with the Hawks. If/when we acquire a 1st rounder and no baggage for a player not even under contract with us ( Whom we aquired for FREE with ANOTHER player not under contract with us … Stephen Jackson) I consider that a good thing. But go ahead and suggest your team built around Murphy, Nene, watson, Foyle, Croshere, jerome James, Foster, Steve Francis and Jamal Tinsley. Sounds like Isaiah Thomas’ 2006 Dream Team … Time to exhale …

By Dale

August 15, 2006 08:50 AM | Link to this

Lashco that was a great statement. I’ve been a die-hard Hawks fan for years, and I’m just sick of the junk this organization keeps putting on the floor. But since I often disagree with BK, I guess in some people’s minds that makes me not a fan, just a hater.

I think drafting Josh Smith was a steal, I think signing Zaza was great, but I’m sorry it’s going to take more than Zaza and JSmith to get me optimistic about this team again.

Reese, your comments about that old 76ers team was way over must these bloggers heads. But it was an excellent statement. I can go back to when the Sixers had Mcginnis, Collins, World B. Free, Dr. J, Mike Bibby’s dad and played Portland in the finals. That 77 Sixers team was possibly more talented and explosive then the 83 Sixers team, but the 83 Sixers team with guys like Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks, and a young kid named Anderw Toney (Boston Strangler) had better chemistry, and that’s why they were champions.
It’s all about chemistry, remember the 79’ Hawks, with John Drew, Roundfield, Eddie Johnson and a young Tree Rollins, they were a great team, not because of individual talent, but because of team chemistry. Chemistry is the point I’ve been trying to make for a long time, to some of these young, blind and ignorant (Ray, G-money, Roan St.) fans.

Maybe I just value my money a little more than some of these people. I would be more than willing to renew my season tickets for the first time in 5 seasons, if this organization showed me that they knew what they are doing. From the decisions they have made this off season, in my opinion, they don’t know what their doing.

By Dale

August 15, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this

Jim, nobody ever mentioned trading Al Harrington for Nene, that would be stupid. We don’t know enough about Nene to invest that kind of money in him.
We lost all leverage when we didn’t trade Al Harrington last year.

I still believed we could have worked out something with the Bucks. I think Magloire and TJ Ford would have been the point guard and center we needed to take that next step. Maybe before the draft we could have traded Al and swapped draft picks for Magloire and TJ Ford.

By G Money

August 15, 2006 09:26 AM | Link to this

Dale, I appreciate your comments regarding chemistry and that is what building a team is all about. It’s a very astute comment and I totally agree with you on that. In fact I believe I mentioned it to you on Aug 11 at 11:19am under the “Hawks Make the Wright Move” blog.

What’s done is done. I have never said that BK was 100% right. I questioned the JChill move and I have my question marks about Sheldon particularly when Foye and Gay were available. Given that LWright was on the horizon for a steal, I believe it would have been a better move to have taken one of those two. Nonetheless, it is done now. If the Pacers take Al, that’s a done deal too. My issue is not one of debate, departure or disagreement. However, when we continuously return to the same thing over and over the blog becomes extremely redundant. Many have logged in and made their points. I think as men we can all agree to disagree. Given that, why not move on to a new topic about the strategies that Woody might employ with the “set” line up he has to maximize the opportunities rather than continuously talking about Magloire who in 2 years will be a dinosaur because the game is changing just that rapidly. That’s the only point that I am trying to make. I appreciate different points of view, but when it’s the same comment over and over, it really gets old like some of the thinkng on this blog.

By Jim

August 15, 2006 09:35 AM | Link to this

Dale, Magloire and Ford would have been reasonable. I wouldn’t complain. But in the grand scheme I think Speedy , Wright, and and 1st rounder is a better net than those 2. Especially since they take up more cap space and Magloire will be FA after this year. Even so, I don’t think your deal was ever one that Milwaukee would pursue. Then again, its not like I’m on the phone calls. BTW, I’m with you on the old school Hawks stuff. I actually had a Dan Roundfield poster on my wall. I was crushed when we traded him for Antoine Carr, Cliff Levinston and 2 2nd rd draft choices. How embarassing that I actual remember the details of Hawks trades in 1982.

By Astro Joe

August 15, 2006 09:55 AM | Link to this

Dale, you sound old school like me. I learned a lot about team chemistry when the Sixers woin with Ivaroni and not McGinnis in the starting line-up. But I don’t know how you judge chemistry until you see the product on the floor. How do we know that the new roster will NOT have that great team chemistry?

Reese, I would have preferred Cato over Wright, but it is clear that Woody prefers quickness over size. And the problem I see with adding another 20 point scorer is that it would not give Marvin the chance to become that 20 point scorer.

I think this is the last year of this great experiment. There will be some terrific free agents available and hopefully the ownership nightmare will be over. If this team doesn’t win at least 35 games, I’ll be right there with all of the nay-sayers. But I am optimistic that given the budget constraints placed on BK, he has put together a decent roster that should deliver north of 35 wins. But, as Sekou said yesterday, the development of Smith, Marvin and Salim will ultimately make or break this team in 06-07. Not the drafting of Shelden nor the Speedy/Wright signings.

By Rodger

August 15, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

You guys are right-we should trust BK to make the right choices! After all, hasn’t he given us teams that have won, oh, under a hundred games this millinium? Good God, we used to win that many every couple years!

By A Thinking Fan

August 15, 2006 10:44 AM | Link to this

Remember (I’ve stated it before) CHARACTER to the SPIRIT GROUP & BK is VERY IMPORTANT!

The nba players assoc. does a great job hiding a lot of the SUBSTANCE abuse and drama the players have going on…

By mountain_jim

August 15, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Speaking of ‘old school’, someone asked on the previous blog who had attended Hawks games at the Alexander Memorial Colieseum on Georgia Tech’s campus. (before the Omni was completed).

I attended some games there (Go Lou Hudson!), but more often I as a poor college student was outside our frat house just across the street taking in $ for our frat party expenses parking cars of game attendees…

So I have kept up with the Atlanta Hawks thru the good and the (mostly) bad, including winning season tickets one year during the John Drew days.

Now I await the season and depending on Atlanta’s start I will have to decide whether to pay for the NBA season pass on DirecTV which is the only way I will see the Hawks any on TV up here in Charlotte’s market.

I sure wish we fans who have the scoop on the real inside aspects of this Al deal, it seems unbelievably screwed up and (again) I would love to know what deals were offered to us and turned down and what financial and salary restrictions the Spirit has enforced on BK this off-season since they are possibly lame-duck ownership…

By mountain_jim

August 15, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

sorry - ‘wish we fans could have the scoop’ in previous post

By makesomesense

August 15, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

As a Pacer fan, I apologize to all Atlanta fans here. This is pathetic. After weeks of this crap, they couldn’t make up their minds in a meeting with the owners yesterday? I’m not sure what revelation they’re waiting for; they’ve seen Harrington play a couple of times before. They’ve had weeks to mull this over. When it is announced one way or another, there had better be a major difference that came up at the last minute that would justify this further delay. I would hope our organization isn’t running the numbers whether to include a bucket of cheese spread. Even without the cheese spread, a first rounder and taking a shorter Chuck Nevitt off your hands seems like a pretty good deal for an unrestricted free agent to me, though.

By Ken Strickland

August 15, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

There is something very special going on with this new agent Harrington has hired. Like, the deal with Wright cannot be officially signed and announced until after the S&T is completed. What is going on behind the scene that would cause one deal to affect the other? It obviously has something to do with the Hawks backing off its demand for 3M in cash, and Indy backing off its refusal to take back Edwards contract. And why is Harrington now willing to accept a lesser deal to sign with Indy. As soon as this guy comes aboard, everyone involved starts making concessions. Maybe we need to introduce him to our dumb a* owners.

By G-Money

August 15, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

So I’m checking out the Indy paper. They’re saying that the Hawks get their $7.5MM trade exception and a future pick. Excuse my ignorance, but how do the Hawks then use that exception if they obtain it? Does it mean that they can then sign a mid-level player (if they could find one)?

By Aaron

August 15, 2006 12:28 PM | Link to this

The Hawks don’t get the exception because they are under the cap (which is better than an exception).

The national media is routinely inaccurate when citing details of trades.

By Weaver

August 15, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

You guys are silly about arguing whether Atlanta would be better off with Nene & Watson, or cap space 08’ first rounder for AL….It’s obviously Nene & Watson!! Even if you guys think Nene is overpaid (which he IS) he was still a RESTRICTED FA, meaning you could have gotten more trade value for him than AL if you really didn’t want to pay for his contract. Like the JJ situation last year (Even if your not gonna match, BLUFF!! You have the cap room to match so the other team has to believe you will)….I personally think it was a huge mistake not to grab Nene when you could have, he is exactly what your team needs (B.T.W. where do you think BK got that “I’ll only trade Al for a young big” it was because he was offered & turnred down Nene…The thinking I’m sure was “Will Nene come back healthy? & “How much is he worth after an injury year?” The first has yet to be answered, however, he was worth WAY more than Al in the open market!! Way more!! That is where BK made the mistake! He undervalued Nene’s market value (Still could have gotten more out of a trade for Nene than he will for Al…Why? Because Nene is a BIG, & Nene was RESTRICTED) & overvalued that of Al’s. Now all Hawks fan will have to grin and bear it as Indy forcefully penetrates your team and takes Al for basically nothing! The first rounder isn’t even next years! It’s might not be the next either (depending on Indy’s record)!! Man, BK sure knows how to take it up the *ss when it comes to trades…..Not a bad drafter, but terrible at trading….Just so you guys know I litstened to the details behind the infamous trade for JJ, get this, The Suns originally asked for two first rounders….Atlanta comes back with Diaw & 1 first rounder…..Suns say no, but come back with Diaw, + first rounder, + Laker pick as well….Hawks say yes….That is SOOO stupid I don’t have the words!! They start by asking for two first, your team says “NO” yet still ends up giving them 2 first & Diaw just for good measure! Idiots!!

By reese

August 15, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

Dale, I remember world b free, mcginnis, collins, henry bibby, jelly bean bryant and steve mix as well. That was the first year I started playing organized basketball and living in New York I was exposed to the sixers, buffalo, knicks and nets teams.

Dale, I realized that a lot of the bloggers wouldn’t understand what we are talking about.

G-Money, for month’s I’ve been saying that I wanted the hawks to acquire taller players who can block shots. Just because a player is 6’11 or 7’0 feet tall does not mean that they are a shot blocker. Just like it doesn’t mean that someone who is shorter than 6’9 cannot block shots. You’d be surprised to know that both Pippen and Jordan averaged more than 1 blocked shot per game when they won their first championship.

Hopefully, one day you will be able to experience what Dale, Astro Joe, Jim, Mountain Jim and others are talking about when we were able to see teams who knew how to excel on both the offensive and defensive end. Once seen, it won’t be forgotten and then the light bulb will go off in your head and you’ll say, thats what they were talking about.

By Steve B.

August 15, 2006 02:32 PM | Link to this

You guys kill me when you take your opions as facts. WEAVER no dissrespect dude but come on. Boris sucked in Atl, BK and Boris have both said he asked to be traded. He would have never played that well in Atl because he didn’t want to be in Atl. If you watched the draft you know Phx traded the LA pick for cash. So our cost in the JJ trade= Diaw,1 pick and cash. That’s not that bad. This is the big one, The problem with your assesment of what BK should have done at trade dead line. If we had gotten Nene and Watson the only thing we would have now is Watson. No other team in the NBA would have belived the HAWKS would give Nene 60 mil with Smith, Chills And Williams to sighn to extentions in the next 2 yrs. You can bluff but what if the other team calls your bluff. I’m cool with having JJ on the books for 70 mil but adding Nene for 60 mil HELL NO. This guy would have a good year to just put up 12 and 8 and that don’t= 60 mil. A few years back Miami wanted wanted Odem but knew the Clips didn’t want to part with him, How did they get him? They offered Brand the max, let the Clips match it and then offered the bank to Odem. Forcing the Clips to decide between Odem and any cap space. What if a a team did that to us with Nene and they realy wanted Smith or Marvin. Flexibility is always important don’t under value it. Since You, I, and every one else on this blog knows we wouldn’t have given Nene 60 mil yes I’d rather have a pick than Watson. Next I can’t think of who said it first but I agree if Ind has to think about it BK must have something up his sleeve or a damm good pick is involved.

By Weaver

August 15, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

Steve B. It’s funny how you think everyone in the league would know the Hawks wouldn’t match an offer for Nene with JJ already being on the books (your ONLY big contract!!) when just last year the HAWKS felt that even with Nash, Marion, & Stoudamire coming up for the Max that the Suns (and EVERYONE on this board as well) WOULD match J.J.’s max offer!! You don’t make any sense. Why wouldn’t the Hawks match the offer if they had the capspace to do it (unless your Owners are penny pinchers) Even if just to trade him later on (he actually IS a young C and you can always trade them no matter the contract or that the player isn’t even that good Ex. Tyson Chandler in Chicago…They didn’t want to let him go until they could find something better, and when they did (Wallace) they quickly found trading partners)….Your just not thinking of ALL your option with a RESTRICTED young big man, compared to an UNRESTRICTED young tweener…..You suffer from the same lack of vision as your GM, I guess you deserve each other!!

By Weaver

August 15, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

Another thing Steve B. if you don’t want Nene’s contract and prefer picks I would be willing to bet anything that a team would be more than willing to have parted with just one first round pick for Nene, hell the suns got two for JJ when he was restricted why not? All your management would have had to do was handle a RESTRICTED FA sign & trade deal, which in all honesty they would hold more cards than taking the Harrington approach…..That’s all I’m saying.

By honest_abe

August 15, 2006 03:04 PM | Link to this

i was about to go on a long tirade…..but due to lack of caffeine and the fact that i’m having a semi good day…. i’m just going to take a deep breath and say GOOOOOOOOO FALCONS!

By Steve B.

August 15, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

WEAVER Phx dosn’t have the ownership issues Atl has. Also every one Phx roster is singhend lomg term so they don’t have to worry about up coming contracts. Dude you tried to play me with that week stuff. Tyson is great on D, not much O but that’s the same thing they got with B.Wallace. No Tyson isn’t worth the money he’s making( Ben either, thell regret it) but he is better than Nene and their contacts would have been around the same. Yes it’s hard to get a big in free agency but that dosn’t mean you over pay just to have one. Dallas got to the finnals without a great big and if not for some questionable calls they might be the NBA champions. Ask them if they regret giving all that money to Damp?

By Weaver

August 15, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

Just so you know Steve B. If the HAWKS would have kept the Laker pick they would NOT have sold it, they would have been able to select Marcus Williams when he fell and come away with the best PG prospect in the Draft. OF COURSE THE SUNS SOLD THE PICK!! This just goes to show you that they have no money with ALL of their big Contracts….Hence my belief that they not only wouldn’t have matched they couldn’t truly have afforded to match the contract you gave JJ.

By Steve B.

August 15, 2006 03:23 PM | Link to this

Just so you know WEAVER they turned around after that and gave Barbosa 33mil and that kid from Minn 25mil so yes they did have money. Bk wouldn’t have drafted Marcus their either he dosn’t like the kid(I don’t agree with him on Marcus). But if you looked it up or listened to draft day rumors on insidehoops.com they tried to buy that pick back from Phx to draft Rondo the Celts offered more. Step your game up and tell the whole truth not just the part that makes you look good.

By Ken Strickland

August 15, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

STEVE B, your post about Odom was right on. It also reminded me of another time when a simular ploy was used against the Hawks. Kevin Willis broke his leg and Koncak took over at PF and finished the season strong. I believe the Pistons were the team that signed him to a max FA offer. The Hawks took the bait, matched it, and the rest is history. Koncak never lived up to, well, anything, and ATL was stuck with his bloated contract and couldn’t sign any quality FA because of it.

By HB Ando

August 15, 2006 03:48 PM | Link to this

I think I’m only posting so that folks won’t think I died (sorry to disappoint some of you). There’s just nothing new here to touch on. My predictions for how this season will unfold have already been posted, and nothing has changed my assessment (actually, a recent Sekou post has merely confirmed my opinion).

Weaver is right. Nene’s market value, in trade, as a physical and athletic young big man, and a restricted free agent, would have made him more valuable, as an asset, than Al Harrington. The idea that trading for him would have been pointless if we didn’t want to pay him the $60 million lacks complete logic.

At this point, there doesn’t seem to be any available players, under long-term contracts, that would make sense to trade Al for. So from that standpoint, trading him for a first, and keeping cap space for Marvin, Josh, and/or a run at a free agent next summer is the most reasonable thing to do. But neglecting to establish expectations that a better GM could/should have sought/be seeking, a young big, in trade for Al’s services, is, as usual with some of you folks, incomplete logic (so many people here seem to think that there are only 2 options to every scenario). If Golden State wants Al Harrington, which they’ve publicly stated, why not be a deal maker and find a third team to take Murphy, so we could get Biedrens or O’Bryant? But whatever, same argument, different day.

One thing I would like to point out is that Sekou’s update on Josh Smith’s continuing emergence as a soon-to-be star, only supports my position that folks like Joe and Ken are nuts if they think that the plan is to trade Josh or Marvin in the near future. Billy has just what he envisioned with those two. Why would he drastically deviate from building around them, when they are set to meet or exceed the most optimistic of expectations? Truth is that Billy just screwed up picking Shelden Williams. He can’t play anything but the four, and he’s not going to be able to get anything but minor back up minutes behind the two versatile forwards. Suggestions that Billy is going to trade one of these kids to justify the selection of Shelden is some of the most backwards thinking imaginable. He had one critical move to make, to support the plan of playing those two together, and that was to draft a young big, capable of developing into the anchor to play with Josh and Marvin. It’s the only obvious piece missing if he’s following his own plan. The sad truth is that in two of the last three drafts, he’s used a #6 and a #5 to draft players that will never start for this team. He overpaid for Johnson, when he could have had him for free. He failed to leverage Harrington before the deadline, for a guy, in Nene, that he could have chosen to re-sign and build around, or trade for more valuable assets than he’s reportedly set to take right now, for Al. That’s the mark of a bad GM.

Williams will not provide the instant, meaningful support his draft selection was purportedly justified by. He has no known additional upside, at 23, only 6’8, lacking agility, and unable to play anything other than the PF. He will be the fifth option on the frontline, behind Zaza, Wright, Josh and Marvin, and will go down as a horrible pick. Since he won’t be contributing significant minutes, the decision to take him over a player that wasn’t deemed ready to contribute, such as O’Bryant, Simmons, Sene or Armstrong, is now rendered pointless. Essentially, the worst possible use of that pick.

Please don’t offer me your disagreements. This is a PREDICTION. Only the season’s evolution will support or deny my position. You can’t tell me I’m wrong, because none of us can prove our projections. This is my expectation, and time will tell whether I’m right or not. This team will not make the playoffs. We will be good enough to miss out on the top-3 draft pick, meaning we will give a tremendously valuable lottery pick to Phoenix next summer (something I predicted last fall). From the moment Billy made that trade with Phoenix, he had an obligation to the fans and the franchise, to minimize the ultimate cost, by accelerating the rebuilding to ensure that Phoenix did not receive a lottery pick in ‘07, a draft that anyone with a brain new would be monsterous once high schoolers were shut out of entering directly to the league.

The final tally of Diaw, Rondo, and the player chosen with that pick will go down as TOO much for Johnson, regardless of how tremendously talented he is, and how much he means to this franchise, because he should have been acquired for FREE. 35 wins is a sound ballpark for this teams’ outlook. For those of you who feel like 35 wins is sufficient to defend Billy Knight’s job performance, I feel for how low your expectations have fallen, with years of failure here in Atlanta.

By G-Money

August 15, 2006 03:52 PM | Link to this

Reese, et al I appreciate your “schooling” a brother. The reality is that the only blog you read is your own. There are no “instant championships” in the NBA — nowhere. It starts with building a foundation and then filling out the rest. You mention Scottie and Michael. Michael came into the league in ‘85. It wasn’t until ‘91 that he won his FIRST championship — 6 years, count em. While MJ was entertaining, it took awhile to put all the pieces together. Can you just pause for a minute and even consider that the Hawks have some of the foundational pieces that they will need down the road for a championship run? Can you just consider for a moment that spending all your money on a used Tahoe today might prevent you from buying a new MB GL 450 next year? Why spend just because you’ve got it to spend? Save it until you really see a diamond. At that time the prospect will see that he has a solid caste around him to take it to the next level. I know I’m not old school but this isn’t new math.

By HB Ando

August 15, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

Here’s the other thing. Those who have sought to defend Billy, based on ownerships’ failings, are probably half-right. I don’t believe for a second that they absolve him of decisions like over-paying for Johnson, or selecting Williams. But they can fairly be said to compound an already shaky management job. But if you believe that ownership is truly the issue, then no matter how you slice it, unrestrained optimism about this direction of this franchise makes absolutely no sense. From my perspective, you have either a bad GM, bad ownership, or, the most likely reality, a combination of both.

I’m still waiting for someone who feels strongly that this team will fight for an 8th seed to provide a coherent overview of the 7 teams in the East that were demonstrably as good as, or better than. Ridiculous prediction that this team will be an 8th seed.

By roan st

August 15, 2006 04:03 PM | Link to this

Dale of all people calling me, ray and g-money ignorant. Thats real funny. I bet you wouldn’t refer to me as ignorant if we were in the same room together pal.

By glenn

August 15, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

Well said. I’d even put the 35 victory over/under as dead on.

By Astro Joe

August 15, 2006 04:11 PM | Link to this

Ando, my statements about trading Smith in the near future assumes that he and Marvin don’t play effectively side-by-side. If they can, then obviously there is no reason to trade him. I never stated that Smith would be traded just for the sake of making a trade. Without seeing how the weight gain translates onto the basketball court, I still have my doubts about them as a forward tandem. If nothing else, they both need to tremendously improve their on-ball defense if they are to play side-by-side.

Weaver, we are very knowledgeable about everything that has gone right and wrong with the Hawks. Most of us, however, have no ability to change the past. So at this point, we don’t care what happened with the 21st pick, the JJ trade nor who was selected with the 59th pick in the ‘05 draft. Some believe that the owners started counting their financial losses the day after the trade deadline. Some believe that our GM was allowed to comb his afro for 11 months while his bosses were distracted by the court proceedings and forgot to ask, “hey GM, are you trying to improve our team?” Others, like myself, believe that the same owners who prefer a trade exemption to an expiring contract were determined to run the team on a restricted budget since the divorse proceedings began. But I doubt that you can offer tremendous insight into the past 12 months in the world of the Hawks. But welcome anyway.

Ando, good to have you back. I was getting bored since you, Doc, Abe and Steve B. (among others) took a few days off.

By clyde

August 15, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

The only thing this team can compete for this year is a lottery pick. But damn we traded that away.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Astro Joe

August 15, 2006 04:18 PM | Link to this

Ando, I’m confused. Wasn’t it you who told us all the story about how an owner directed BK to overpay for JJ to initiate the Belkin divorce? And that said owner provided this information directly from his lips to your ears? Please correct me if I am wrong about the previous narration.

By clyde

August 15, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

Sounds to me that Ando has got some FIRE BILLY AND WOODY juice in him. We’re taking the world one by one.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Jim

August 15, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

Ando … You are the main reason i have kept up with this blog over the last year. Yor points are well thought out and always worth reading. However, I believe you consistently misevealuate the expected value of top 10 picks in the NBA. In any given draft year, there are regularly 3-4 of the top 10 picks that never achieve prominence or even middling production in the NBA. EVERY YEAR there are several big men and even a few guards who are drafted highly and never achieve even 6th man status as a pro. J> Bender, C. Mihm, M. Fizer, S. swift, N. Skitish, D. wagner, M. Sweeney … Many many more. I concur that Shelden was not the optimal pick. I wanted him, but would have traded down to do it. I don’t believe taking a power forward who will play 15 min a night is a waste. Its what 1st rd big men do. See your man Nene for comparison. Regarding your claim that calling the Hawks an 8th seed is ridiculous. Not one other team in the NBA has as many players likely to increase their performance as the Hawks do. If the Hawks added absolutely know one, including Speedy , Sheldon, and Wright, they would STILL be 5-7 games better. There is no comparison between the JSmoove or last November and where he is now. Ditto Marvin Williams. Are Stoudamire , Childress and Zaza going to decline ??? Of course not. Will Joe Johnson? No one on Earth thinks his stock is going anywhere but up. Can Speedy, Sheldon, and Wright overcome the loss of Al, cough, Edwards, and Dante Smith??? I think we can be safe they will surpass the production and performance of those 3 handily. In short, not 1 Hawks player is on the decline, from age or injury. Very few teams can say the same. Will we improve 6 games or 16 ? I couldn’t say. But calling a potential 40 win season ridiculous is, well, ridiculous. I’m sure you’ll shoot holes in this, but I guess thats what we’re here for …

By michael m.

August 15, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

35 games really is the over/under for wins this year, thought that for awhile now. there seems to be mass agreement there. getting over that hump will depend on a number of intangibles, which is no different than a host of other east teams that are all closely bunched. chemistry will play a strong factor, as will effort and hustle which dictates how effective our defense will be. the teams that play with heart can mask any individual defensive liabilites, it is about helping each other out and caring about the name on the front of your jersey more than the name on the back.

regarding the pick of shelden, remember that there wasn’t any other option that really fit our team. emphasis on the word TEAM. will foye and roy have better individual careers? probably. but neither was really what we needed. obviously if we had selected foye and hoped he could play pg, speedy would not have viewed the atl as such a great fit for himself. and it seems we went into the offseason with the goal of adding two bigs and one point. we can pick holes in what has transpired, but i like where we are headed. but then, i am a big fan of both marvin and josh smith. while everyone seems to think they cannot play together and/or one will have to be traded, i have steadfastly remarked that they will be the core along with jj on which we build this hawks team. shelden will back up the 4 and 5 for now, and we will get a chance to see how he develops. no one knows for sure at this point how all these young pieces will fit together on the floor. and after seeing the debacle that was jt, reef and big dog, i am glad that we have enough interchangable pieces and role players to field a talented team regardless. that also pushes the individuals to conform to the group if they want to get minutes. so let’s just see how this plays out for a second. i know our team color is red, but that doesn’t mean so many bloggers around here need to moan as if they are on the rag. word.

By michael m.

August 15, 2006 05:15 PM | Link to this

so how was your 40th birthday ando?

By HB Ando

August 15, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

It was some pretty harsh reality that I’m not a kid anymore. So we’ll see what the second half of life has to offer.

Joe, let’s not misrepresent the owners use of the price for JJ as any form of justification for Billy agreeing to it. That’s just not the way it was communicated to me. Billy, and no one else acceeded to those outlandish demands. Billy got bluffed into paying for something he could have gotten for contract price. The fact that Belkin’s logical refusal to go along with such a stupid move was subsequently used as leverage by an already acrimonious partnership in no way supports it’s initial structure.

Jim, there’s no doubt that many top-ten picks have failed to develop. But, from my perspective, that’s quite different than drafting a guy who immediately elicits expectations of career back up. It’s one thing for a guy to fail to live up to expectations. It’s wholly another to draft a guy who most knowledgeable NBA folks have already identified as lacking in star potential and any realistic upside to improve considerably once they enter the league. To have chosen such a player without working him out against other viable big men is unconscionable to me. To have chosen him knowing that he isn’t big enough to cover centers in the NBA, and understanding that you expect Marvin and Josh to play side by side for major minutes for the future, makes no sense at all. It reaks of a defensive, reactionary move, hoping that the majority of folks, who don’t know enough about basketball, will fall into the trap of believing that Williams was capapble of coming in and plugging the massive hole that exists underneath the basket.

Here’s what I’m saying: you don’t have to agree with me now. You don’t have to believe me. Watch and see if I’m right. And if he is exactly what I fear, the failings of other early draft picks, predicated on potential and upside, are no defense for taking a substandard, known quantity, that just doesn’t, and never did, project to be worthy of a fifth overall pick. Comparisons to Bender and the like are apples and oranges. If we had taken O’Bryant at five, and he didn’t pan out, then comparisons to those types of players would be valid. But every single person who analyzes draft options, for a hobby, or for a living, knew that with Shelden Williams, what you saw at Duke is about the best you can hope for, skill-wise. And I’m on record as saying it won’t be good enough to help this team. So maybe we didn’t need Foye or Roy, but either one of them would have been more valuable to us as assets, down the road, than a back up power forward, who can’t get on the floor in front of Lo Wright and Zaza, much less Josh and Marvin.

Just calling them like I see ‘em guys. I’ve got too many other things going on in my life to have much emotion over the Hawks.

By michael m.

August 15, 2006 06:20 PM | Link to this

we didnt have wright when we selected shelden. we needed a couple bigs added anyway. also, i think shelden benefitted a bit from boozer coming into the league with a seeming lack of upside and exceeding all expectations. add this on top of duke pf elton brand excelling, and perhaps that helped shelden as well. this is not say i was happy about the pick because i wasn’t. but you cannot sit there and say you know for a fact that shelden will not improve. it’s your opinion. we lacked any and all defensive presence last year. well, guess what? shelden is supposed to bring that. we need someone to do those little things. you can say all you want that you draft those guys late, but no one know which of those guys are gonna really work out, or else they would have been chosen earlier too. stop looking at assets for a second and look at our actual team. we needed to improve a few things and that is what we addressed. it was not known who or what would be available to us in free agency and i believe it is fair to say that our owners were not going to really try and outbid anybody this summer. open your minds, people. i just don’t get why some of you get so much enjoyment in finding the potential negative aspect to every single little thing. try to see the positive if you even capable. i guess not everyone has the vision to see all sides of an issue. this is about building up to a point where we can hopefully compete for a crown. unfortunately that’s really difficult unless you get lotto lucky. however, let’s say we do get 35 wins next year and then happen to win the lottery, delivering us oden. well, in that one lucky moment, i believe a championship would be ours in the coming years in part due to the various pieces we have accumulated. and try to remember that had we selected, say, randy foye with the idea that he is a good asset to eventually trade, well, then we don’t get a true point like speedy because he doesn’t see us as a good fit. i am done with the idea of picking guys with the idea of trading them down the line. we have enough pieces that it is time to see what they will do with a true pg amongst them. we needed to have a semblance of a balanced roster in order to sufficiently evaluate not only them, but also woodsen. ando, you are a good writer and i appreciate you backing up your opinions with a degree of depth and thought, but you appear incapable of branching out from your narrow mindset. i understand it is not all black and white, but at this point, you must have some idea of how you come off, no?

By lacsho

August 15, 2006 06:33 PM | Link to this

Just like people argue we need to give Sheldon a pass, and let’s wait to evaluate; I say lets give this whole draft class the same consideration. Know one can say foye or roy wouldn’t have fit in with out team, that’s not reality. Reality is today’s NBA teams can survive without a true point guard. JJ has the ability to handle the rock if need be. Hell he did a fantastic job last year. Who’s to say that foye or roy wouldn’t have fit in lovely with our team. If both of those guards are the best talent in the draft, why not draft them? BK rationale for drafting Marvin was based on he was the best overall talent in the draft; I think that’s why we didn’t draft Paul Right help me out guy’s, but this year we decide to overlook talent and draft on need; however, BK is known for drafting players who can play multiple positions, yet we draft Williams, who can only play the four. * Now where’s the consistentsy?(gotta luv the rhetorical questions). *Ando thinks for pointing that out about people were stating that we were going to have to trade Marvin or Josh next year. I cannot see BK trading Marvin,JJ,Josh, and JChill…. He loves those guys, because that’s his vision long, lanky, athletic players, who can play multiple positions. So that’s when I start to questions BK’s actions; hey guys, BK is not consistent at all. We draft for need with Shelden, but we draft for overall talent with Marvin, yet we needed Paul badly (go figure).

Let me reiterate, so I don’t get hate I like the direction and potential of the Hawks, but now we need that potential to manifest into a winning team. One question my brothers, when was it ever alright to just settle with a lackluster year. We deserve a team like John Drew, Tree, Eddie Johnson, Dan Roundfield, or like the 87 team: Wilkins, Rivers, Willis,Levingston,R Johnson,Tree, Carr, Henderson, Battle… That’s my only argument, and I will argue this every time someone thinks BK is the shizznick…..

Dale I see you man.

On a lighter note its good to see some of the good folks back. I know these arguments are redundant, and now I understand how you guys felt, when I was the new comer trying to argue points that were already argued in the past.

Peace,

And I’m gone

By HB Ando

August 15, 2006 07:29 PM | Link to this

lacsho, that’s exactly my point. The Williams pick was befuddling on almost every level except for the idea that his strengths in college were blocking shots and rebounding. But as I’ve pointed out before, he was playing against the most watered down big men in the history of the modern NCAA, as almost every special young big has gone straight to the pros from high school over the last five years (at at the most were one and done like Bosh). Just because he’s undersized and went to the same school as Boozer and Brand doesn’t make him their peer from an agility or offensive skill standpoint. I went to Georgia and played in summer invitational tourney’s with guys like Shandon Anderson, and I’m 6’5 and play big guard. Doesn’t mean I’m as good as Shandon. That’s an irrelavant point.

I keep asking, and not receiving, that some of you folks try to avoid labeling my analysis as negative. There’s no emotion in my opinion. I’m not drawing the same conclusions as some of you. But if I’m to come here and participate, and I’m to consider the points of others, which I feel are unrealisticly positive, then I’m going to keep responding in as honest a fashion as I can. Are we going to be better this year? I think so. Could we be far better right now, with different choices that could have been made? I definitely believe so. Is that opinion fair justification for my belief that we aren’t in the right hands from a general management standpoint? Subjectively, I believe it is. I think when a team this bad makes so many moves that leave so much room for obvious second-guessing, then you have a problem.

MM, you say we didn’t have Wright when we drafted Shelden, but we did know that Wright, and several other journeymen would be available. I’ve known for two years that Wright wanted out of Memphis and that he had no intention of staying. Do you not think that GM’s talk to agents all the time, regarding players that are entering free agency, to gauge their interest? Are you naive enough to believe that we HAD to draft Shelden, because there was a realistic possiblity that we couldn’t find one, just one, viable option to shore up the front line? Hogwash. The expectations of some of the folks here are mystifyingly low. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: bad franchises make excuses and good ones go out and address their needs. The proof is in the pudding, as the same franchises struggle year in and year out.

Portland was clearly in worse shape than us coming into the draft, and they added Roy, Aldridge and Magloire, for virtually nothing in return. They come into this year with a good coach, Jack and Roy in the backcourt, to go along with Randolph and Magloire in the front. If they get Miles to buy in, or trade him, they’ll have a better record than the Hawks this coming season (that’s my prediction, made before, and made again). Where’s their crying about how long rebuilding takes? Hammer me if I’m wrong about which team has a better record come years’ end. But don’t doubt for a second that I’ll remind you I said it if I’m right. I’m not interested in optimism and pessimism, I’m interested in results and testing my analytical skills as they pertain to hoops. I like making the tough prediction, that others don’t agree with (like predicting all season that the Heat would win the championship), and then seeing if I’m on or off.

Call ‘em like I see ‘em. Let’s see who’s right. I’m ready for the season to start right now. I’m bored arguing points that can’t be proven out until tip-off time comes……………

By CJ

August 15, 2006 07:38 PM | Link to this

Maybe it was the idea all along to have a minimal payroll in comaprison to the rest of the NBA with a majority of short term contracts incase of another selloff or possible money problems. In that case I don’t think they have been totally upfront with the public. It seems like they are determined to run things on the cheap..which has become obvious with the court proceedings. Successful teams spend and take gambles, of course it takes a degree of foresight and shrewdness. To that extent I’m glad BK isn’t making any complex deals because it’d be a repeat of the Pheonix trade. But it bites both ways in the fact that the Hawks will always be just below the surface of having a competitive playoff roster.

By CJ

August 15, 2006 07:46 PM | Link to this

forgot to add…appreciated the old school talk. Seeing things from an older fan’s perspective. The only thing I remember is the showtime era(barely) and up.

By reese

August 15, 2006 07:51 PM | Link to this

G Money, the car example is one that I can relate to because I was in the Market for an SUV in the year 2000. Guess what, I chose the tahoe because it was large enough to hold my 3 dogs, passengers in the back seat, luggage and passengers in the front.

You see, I made a decision based on the need at that point in time. I haven’t looked back. The SUV brought me years of service. I gave it to my sister and Now I have the even bigger yukon denali. I didn’t have to dream about any new vehicle like the smaller MB GL.

My point is this. At some point you have to quit dreaming about the future and make a decision that meets your needs now. Just because you don’t have the money to buy the MB GL at the present time, doesn’t mean that you can’t buy what you need now. And guess what, when you do have the money to buy the MB GL, you just might still buy the Tahoe because it still meets your needs.

The hawks need is a bonafide proven NBA shot blocker. Let get it now and stop the dreaming.

By Steve B.

August 15, 2006 08:03 PM | Link to this

Ando Portland did come out of the draft better but they did part with a guy they wasted the 11th pick on(Telfair). Also most NBA guys say Portland made a lot of moves on draft day they didn’t have to make. Port got the guy I wanted(Aldridge) but outside of that they drafted guys for spots they already had young talent in. If Roy starts at the two and Miles at the three what do they do with Webster? The Blazers are still to bad to make a run at anything in the west. For that reason the Hawks will end up with a better record. 40 wins is possible.

By roan st

August 15, 2006 08:07 PM | Link to this

Yea, there are all kinds of bona fide NBA shotblockers out there begging for teams to sign them. Some of you act as if all GM’s need to do is snap their fingers to get what you want. In your fantasy basketball worlds everthing makes perfect sense but in the real world things aren’t as black and white. The only way we will get a bona fide center is to draft one because they don’t grow on trees.

By lacsho

August 15, 2006 08:13 PM | Link to this

Ando I left the corporate world, and I’m back in school majoring in English. You writing and analytical skills are off the chain. I have a year,and some change left in school at the age of 39, and I really look forward to my writing progression; I look forward to improving my skills as graduation nears; I just wanted to get that off my chest.

Reese and CJ I co-sign your argument.

Mountain Jim I really like your insight. What up Ken keep your head up buddy. It’s ok to let off some steam. That’s what happens when you’re dealing with repitive, redundant, recycled arguments.

Where the hell is Doc holla at your fam man….

By Steve B.

August 15, 2006 08:21 PM | Link to this

It would take two long to debate why the Hawks will win the 8th seed over other East teams. But we can all agree most of the teams in the East outside of the top 4 have huge question marks. NJ, Cle, Mia and Chi are locks. Det and Mil should get in also but after that it’s up in the air. The last 2 spots are their for the taking and Ind,Orl, Was, and the Hawks should be battling for them. With Tinsley injury pron and sucking for most of last year Ind isn’t a lock to get in. Orl has Howard and Darko to build around but can Nelson defend down the stretch, Is G.Hill healthy, will Reddick be back, If he’s not you know this team can’t shoot. Wash lost Jeffries this year and Larry the year before , I think this team is taking steps back. Theirs no reason we shouldn’t be fighting for the 7th or 8th spot. I’m not so sure Det won’t miss Ben in a very big way,so they might slipp and one of these teams might move up.

By michael m.

August 15, 2006 09:08 PM | Link to this

ando, you don’t have to show emotion about something to be negative. in fact, a lot of negative people have trouble showing any emotion at all. study up on your psychology because your point there made no sense at all.

that was probably the first time anyone has ever called me naive. but then, that brushstroke of yours made little sense either. to reiterate, i did not say i personally would have chosen shelden. i was not happy with the pick. i would have made a move to go up and get aldridge. when that did not happen, and we picked shelden, i was able to look at the board and realize that no one else stood out as a good fit here at #5. i would have tried to swap the pick to new orleans for #12, #15 and jr smith. but we picked shelden. now, i could sit here and figuratively cry again and again about it like you chose to do, or i could examine how it might work. that is also why i looked at small lineups where shelden would essentially play the 5 for us at times in a 3 forward alignment. see, i am talking about how the actual atlanta hawks squad might come together and function as a cohesive whole. it’s different than fantasy ball, as roan st. pointed out. i am sorry for whatever slights have befallen you in your life that you find it necessary to take the easy way out and nitpick every little decision over and over. i guess as long as people like lacsho keep kissing your behind, you won’t see what you are missing. and considering i also think the hawks will most likely end up with 35 wins, i am not sure what we would be betting on. if you think i am happy with mediocrity, you are wrong. i aim for the stars with everything in my life. that’s helped me find success. and while i was unable to really be excited about our team a year ago, i do feel that we are moving in the right direction. better to have young, up and comers than an old squad that is capped out and cannot advance beyond round one. get it straight. i am not a huge bk fan, nor do i hate him. i feel he has made some really good decisions, but i also feel he screwed up a couple times. aside from san antonio, you could take just about any team in the league and pick apart the gm if you really wanted to. they are not ever going to be as perfect as you imagine yourself to be in your head.

and regarding the lo wright signing, you cannot tell me you knew we would be able to get him at that price. our mgmt. is screwed up and was not going to go out and sign any high priced vets. you like to use 20/20 hindsight to act like you knew what was going to happen there. but the truth is, you didn’t. quit acting like a loser and examine how the team might possibly work, as in THE TEAM THAT WE ACTUALLY HAVE. you’re not even a real fan. you are just a gm wannabe. i have prompted you on countless occasions to deal with what we actually have and the roles in which our players might take on. that’s when you either disappear or dodge the question. you say you don’t want to continually say the same thing, but then you do it anyway. i no longer expect you to change or grow. but why don’t you try to look at what we do have and examine how the hawks can play at their best. are you capable of that?

By NumbaOneFan

August 15, 2006 09:17 PM | Link to this

I interesting and stimulating posts today men. Seems everybody myself included is antsy for the season to start,lots of questions still remain to be answered. I still believe we have added enough new pieces throught the draft and free agency to conpete for the 7th or 8th. I still believe a 38+ wins just by taking into account that the youngster are one year older, hungrier and improved from last season. I do not know what to expect from Sheldon Williams as all I know about him is what I have read in posts and online. If hes a wasted pick, so be it. Not much we can do now.I think BK is joke as a GM but i will give him credit for “most” of his moves and pics. I like our roster compared to anything we have had over the last 6 year or more. I know as an organization the Hawks have sucked for longer than I care to rmember and frankly see progress being made. The draft is a crapshoot and there are zero guarantees, since just one career ending injury or a drug overdose in a player can render a pick as a waste. What we have got to realize as intelligent, educated and knowledgeable fans is that we are headed in the right direction in spite of BK.

By ray

August 15, 2006 09:20 PM | Link to this

I have said before that I think BK is not doing the best job that can be done here. I also blame the owners for creating the money problems. What confuses me is how that can be construed as “defending” Billy Knight. Seems to me like those two halves make a whole. However…

The point I’ve been trying to make is that if some of you want to keep talking “reality”, then let’s talk reality. Reality is that this is the team you see before you, or at least what will be there when the season starts (Harrington’s situation not resolved, obviously). Picking apart free agent moves, trades and trade scenarios, draft moves, etc is all well and good and we’ve done it hundreds of times already. As a fan, this is doing NOTHING for me right now. So what is all this noise about “settling for less” and “lowered expectations?” Do we have a choice? Yeah, we do, but it’s not the choice you think it is. We have a choice to watch or not watch, to pay for tickets or not pay, to participate or not participate. I may not even get a chance to go to a game and pay for a ticket. But I will watch the Hawks on tv. So pardon my evil optimism, I like to think positive. I’m not ignoring the negatives, the team has plenty of problems. But I choose not to dwell on them. I want to see these guys play, and grow while they’re doing it. Ok, if the season goes to hell, I’ll be very disappointed. And it will prove a lot of people right. But why dwell on who’s gonna be right and who’s gonna be wrong. I think some people care much more about that than they do basketball.

Reese, I actually agree on several names you mentioned as far as low post guys we could use. However, neither you nor I are on the phones, that Billy guy is. And given his habits, while some players would excite me, you can usually tell who BK is going to go for. As for the “old school” teams and players, I’m not completely ignorant there. I remember watching guys like Doctor J play. He did things that even Jordan didn’t do. Jelly Bean Bryant. Gee, I wonder who that was…or who his son is…I remember Moses Malone, Darryl Dawkins (Chocolate Thunder, baby!!!) Dennis Cooper, Adrian Dantley (used to wipe the sweat off his brown when he got the ball right before he made his move), George Gervin (the Iceman with the incredible finger roll), even the twin towers (Ralph Sampson being half of that). At 29, I’m probably younger than you, but dad watched a lot of the older footage, which means I did too. Unfortunately, my friend, the game is not played even like it was 10 years ago. Team chemistry is different. Money is different: endoresements of all kinds, music videos, clothing and footwear. These are the driving things now. Fundamentals take a backseat to “upside.” Team chemistry is not made or maintained over night or even the course of a season. It is merely begun. And that’s if you can truly teach, influence, encourage, and persuade players to quit thinking about only themselves. The Pistons had something good there and they could have built on it. Maybe they’re better off without Big Ben, but Big Ben wanted a fat contract and a change of scenery. A few years ago, Vince Carter wanted out of Toronto…so did his cousin. Can you imagine a squad with McGrady, Carter, Bosh, Ford, and some others? Ford would have 20 assists per game, LOL! Okay, that’s exaggerating, but there is a couple of examples of how it goes today. You can’t compare the past with the present without acknowledging that the game has seriously changed. The players have seriously changed. Back then you had teams. Compared to that, what you have now is not what I’d call teams. I’d call them “let’s give it a try for now” squads. Let’s give it a try for now and if player A isn’t getting what he thinks he should, let’s just quit and work a trade or something. But enough of my rambling. When the season starts, come hell, highwater, or harbingers of doom: GO HAWKS!

By lacsho

August 15, 2006 09:32 PM | Link to this

Michael M kissing butt = giving another brother props on his writing skills. I don’t think so. I hope I get a chance to meet you during the season; I loved to explain my point of view to you, face to face. What new interesting prospectives are you trying to introduce? You’ve stated three paragraphs of recycled crap. What have you said that we all haven’t said? Same stale azz argument. It’s a damn shame compliments constitutes as azz kissing. Now you want people to read the future. Who really knows what’s going to happen next season? And who are you to tell someone that they are not a fan. You sound like a complete idiot. Yes I said it!! Don’t bring my name in your argument, handle your business son.

By Astro Joe

August 15, 2006 09:40 PM | Link to this

Ando, your quote from earlier today:

Joe, let’s not misrepresent the owners use of the price for JJ as any form of justification for Billy agreeing to it. That’s just not the way it was communicated to me. Billy, and no one else acceeded to those outlandish demands.

This is news to me, that an NBA GM can consummate a trade without the team’s NBA Governor signing off on the paper work. Oh yeah, that is what Uncle David Stern presented to the Spirit as a gift, the right to overturn Governor Belkin based on a majority wins scenario. So does that mean that BK independently agreed to the terms of the trade, called Colangelo and the deal was done? Of course not. The owners (according to you), accepted the terms in part to move forward with a divorce proceeding. No GM independently consummates any trade according to NBA governance rules. The check and balance set up with the team’s NBA Governor forces another set of eyes to approve any trade. So even if BK agrees to trade Al for a number 3 value meal at McDonald’s, the deal does not go through without the signature of the Governor of the Atlanta Hawks. If the governor doesn’t agree with the terms of the trade, they send their GM back to the negotiating table, they don’t fold under the pressure of their employee. If you are aware that the JJ deal was granted without the signature of the governor of the Atlanta Hawks (Michael Gearon), then that is big news. Is that what you are saying, that an NBA trade was accepted by the league office without authorization of the governors of the respective teams?

By the way, if I knew how to link an article to this site, I would. But since I don’t, you all may want to read the following by doing the old fashion cut and paste. I found it to be an interesting perspective from someone who would have been in the know with what Phoenix was contemplating.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Basketball/NBA/Toronto/2006/05/19/1588121-sun.html

By lacsho

August 15, 2006 09:42 PM | Link to this

Ray reality is it’s ok to agree to disagree. Reality is the fans can shut the Hawks down. I sure Martin Luther King was thinking positive, but reality brothers and sistas were getting treated likes dogs.

Intellectuals view the world and cry, while others live their day to day lives without a care in the world. That’s Reality my friend.

By ray

August 15, 2006 09:46 PM | Link to this

My man Ando.

Where to start. I read some of Michael M.’s comments and towards the end of his post, he’s hammering you pretty hard. I have to agree with his insistence on analyzing the team that we actually have. However, after reading your post, I can see why we don’t see eye to eye on a lot of things. You pretty much just explained yourself. You like to play GM: making predictions, analyzing moves, critiqing everything,etc. Yours is a business mind, clearly. Which makes me wonder, are you a fan of the game or a fan of the business game? I don’t care nearly as much about predictions or whether anybody here is wrong or right. The Hawks aren’t even the only team I watch or like to watch. I’ve loved the Bulls during high times and low. I watch several other teams play and pay attention to how they do their thing. I love the game, and I’m a Hawks fan. I never predicted that Miami would win…but secretly hoped that they would. Hoped that DWade would go to that next level, that Mourning’s miraculous return and toughing it out would bring him something more than just a chance to play behind Shaq and eventually wither away into retirement. But I get no joy in detailed analysis just for the sake of results and/or bragging rights on predictions. I read the magazines and online articles for that. Guys get paid to do that, even when they botch it like crazy. If that gives you peace, joy, and happiness, then speed on brother. I am in no way condemning you for it, by all means enjoy it. I just think now I understand why you come across the way you do. One thing though: while I, as well as others here may not provide the detailed analysis you do, it would not be wise to assume that we’re stupid. I speak for myself when I say that I will not be limited to your mechanical, mathematical style of thinking. Ever hear coaches and commentators say ” Enjoy the game, you need to have fun. Without the fun, the work gets old.” ? It’s true. To me, all the analytical stuff is fine, but yeeesh…all the time? It’s a game. While somebody enjoys a particularly good play, what are you doing, catalogging how many assists they have so far and whether or not they should have been drafted two or three spots down? LOL! Okay, now I’m just picking on ya…

NumbaONeFan, thanks for the comments. The past is done, as you said. All we have is the present and the future.

Mykhalc, I aim to please brother..if humor can be injected, I’ve got the syringe. LOL!

By michael m.

August 15, 2006 09:49 PM | Link to this

exactly, ray. good post. it’s funny how around here not being negative has come to mean you have low standards or are settling for mediocrity. it’s utterly ridiculous. unfortunately a lot of people like to think their posts have all sorts of shades of grey, and yet they take others as black and white. goes with the territory, i guess.

i see our starters as speedy, jj, marvin, smith and zaza. first off the bench will be childress and then lorenzen. salim the shooter and shelden the garbage man both have very specifiic roles this year in my opinion. it’s very important that woodsen sets the tone in preseason with laying out the initial roles he sees everyone playing. of course, he should let them all know that it can change depending on how hard they work when they are on the floor. he needs to make it very apparent that anyone who doesn’t display proper effort and good team defense, helping each other out on the floor, will be pulled and forced to sit on the pine. he must back this up in actual game situations. jj, speedy, lue and lorenzen need to set the tone as the vets, but not allow the team to fragment into two groups like they did early last year.

speedy should play about 28 minutes at pg, jj should take up 40 in the backcourt. i see jj playing a dozen minutes at the point. childress, salim and lue will divy up the other 28 guard minutes. personally, i think woodsen needs to let lue know that there will be games where he may barely see the floor (i.e. 10 minutes). if lue can handle that in a healthy, team first fashion, i don’t see any problems. salim will get 8-20 minutes depending on if he is hitting his jumper that night and if he is playing enough defense. chill should get about 25 minutes a night, split between the 2 (10 minutes) and 3 (15 min.) spots. and there will be games where speedy is hurt or less than effective, and that’s when lue can step up. i see speedy and lue as a sort of yin and yang. when lue’s minutes go up, it most likely will be speedy’s that go down. this is assuming that chill and salim are effective this year. if they get down mentally, which is entirely possible and happened to them last year, than their minutes will shrink. again, we have the flexibility to make this work.

i see marvin and josh smith each averaging about 32 minutes a night. shelden will get about 15, starting the season closer to 10 but inching up to the point where he may get around 20 a night as the year goes on. it will depend on how effective he is defensively and doing all the little things that don’t always show up in the boxscore. he can be an effective scorer at times as well. it will be interesting to see the +/- point differential when shelden is on the floor.

at center, i think zaza will average around 27 minutes and lorenzen 21.

this team has a flexibility that no hawks squad has had since the days where levingston, spud and battle came off the bench. fratello was able to get that team to play hard and maximize their potential. they knew their roles. if woodsen can do likewise, i think we have a decent shot at sneaking into the playoffs. regardless, hard work on the floor will amount to meaningful games in march and april at the very least. no, it’s not a championship, but it is progress. moving forward. if jj, marvin and josh smith can continue to grow and improve their play to all star levels, which is entirely possible, then we are not too many moves from at least getting to the east finals in the next few years. look, gentlemen, there are no easy fixes. you all saw how hard it was to pry even a bynum or harrison away. if we luck out in the lottery, then we can talk about championships. but if winning nba titles was so easy, everyone would be doing it. it takes a lot of luck and a whole lot of skill. i am just glad we are not saddled with bad contracts. we are moving in the right direction which is better than the alternative. let’s see how this team comes together.

By michael m.

August 15, 2006 10:14 PM | Link to this

lacsho, didn’t mean for it to come off bad calling you out like that. wasn’t trying to offend you. and i apologize if you were bothered by it. hopefully we can all attend a game this year. i live in cali though, so it might be hard. went to a couple last year over xmas when i was in town.

i disagree with some of the other stuff you said in your post. but i can understand, all things considered. anyway, i strive not to say recycled crap, that’s my whole point of posting. been on this board for about a year but only started posting often a couple months. (did it for a bit in season but then the cox server stopped working on my computer for awhile so i went back to lurking.) anyway, if you pay attention to what i have said in the past, you will see i am often bringing up new points and trying to take our discussions in more fruitful directions. sometimes the points get repeated and recycled to the point that my own take can get regurgitated enough that it comes off as same old, same old. hell, a few weeks ago everyone was talking about trading players and i said that we needed to remember injuries occur and you don’t know who is going to have to step up; that our depth was necessary and gave us a flexibility that would positively serve our team in many ways. a couple people acknowledged my injury post as a good point. then a few days ago numbaonefan writes that no one has talked about injuries and my new best friend ray pointed out that it was a good post. my point being that repetition is gonna occur around here at times. it’s only natural, i suppose.

but there have a few times where i try to address our current team and no one wants to talk about it, which i cannot believe. are we nothing more than wannabe gm’s around here? what’s the point of that? i thought we were hawks fan who want to have an intelligent discussion about the team we love, both pro and con. that’s why i can at least appreciate ando’s points. i just wish he would broaden his vision a bit, make it less stale and more productive. but whatever, it’s cool regardless. i have no problem with anyone here. none of us are getting paid.

also, i was curious what you guys thought of that hawks/lakers/charlotte trade i proposed a few days ago. it seemed to bring us and the lakers what we needed while benefitting charlotte financially as well.

By ray

August 15, 2006 10:18 PM | Link to this

Lascho, let me put a few things into a clearer light for you. I’ll address each statement you made one by one.

It is okay to agree to disagree. Really? Well I agree and I already knew that. Not to many people are agreeing to disagree here in case you haven’t noticed.

The fans can shut down the Hawks. Yeah, if you can persuade enough people to stop buying tickets, team apparel, etc. Do you think that should or will happen?

I’m sure Martin Luther was thinking positively. WHAT in God’s name does that have to do with a professional basketball team? That was about CIVIL FREAKIN’ RIGHTS…bad, bad analogy. Luther knew what was going on…you gonna tell me was stupid too? Is that what you are implying? That because he didn’t advocate certain reactions means he was an idiot who didn’t deserve to be the leader he was? Man, I’m not even going to continue with you on that one…I hope you aren’t saying what I think you’re saying.

Intellectuals view the world and cry, while others live their day to day lives without a care. What kind of poetic….never mind. Well you said it half right. Intellectuals view the world and cry…and basically do nothing about it. They don’t know how to move forward. Don’t know how to solve problems. They just cry. Great. Kind of like philosophers,right? They just sit there and think and talk alot…and do nothing. You see, there is a difference in being an intellectual and being intellectual. Didn’t catch that? Okay, I’ll put it like this: both philosophy and intellect should be part of a person, not that which solely defines a person. It should be characteristics or abilities that a person possesses, not that by which a person is restricted. Still think I’m a brainless fool? Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I know reality better than I want to. My profession is Law Enforcement. I get to be exposed to the best and worst life has to offer on a daily basis. And lots of people get to hate me just for being what I am. So don’t preach to me about viewing the world and crying. I do my crying part. Then I get up and do something about it if at all possible. As a soldier, which I respect greatly, I expect that you understand this from a broader world view than I do, considering you had to deal with things beyond this country’s borders. By the way, I understand your questioning of Presidential decisions. The government should fear the people, not the other way around. Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with b-ball, but you honestly managed to strike a nerve with me. Your analogies are…strong…but I don’t see how you compare them to a basketball team that is not entirely without hope.

By michael m.

August 15, 2006 10:26 PM | Link to this

great post, ray. great post.

By Astro Joe

August 15, 2006 10:31 PM | Link to this

On a lighter note and to change the subject, NBA TV was showing a game from the second Dream Team that featured Joe Dumars, Kevin Johnson, a young Shaq, Larry Johnson, Reggie Miller and Shawn Kemp among others. WOW! I completely forgot how good Kemp was back in the day. My goodness. He was grabbing boards an inch from the rim, dribbling down the court and making sweet passes. I do remember how he ate up Chicago in the Finals (Payton was supposed to be the man for Seattle but Kemp was by far their team’s best player). Anyway, it made me think about how the era right after Bird/MJ/Magic/Isiah kind of got lost in their shadows. Maybe because guys like Mark Price, Kevin Johnson, Larry Johnson and Kemp could not sustain their greatness. But for about 3-4 years, those guys were every bit as good as the KGs, Nash, Amare, Arenas and T Macs of today.

By ray

August 15, 2006 10:40 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Michael. I like your new direction as well. As soon as my ears quit smoking, I may be able to generate a semi-intelligent response to it.

Lascho. I think I owe you an apology. I meant what I said, but after reading my own post, I realize I probably came across as condescending in parts…or maybe the whole thing. Some of the stuff you said seemed condescending and I took as personal insults to my intelligence. Perhaps I’ll go and get my rabies shot so I’ll quit foaming at the mouth, LOL! And now, it’s time for a cold one: drink of ice tea that is…beer ain’t gonna make me any smarter, especially at this hour…

By ray

August 15, 2006 10:44 PM | Link to this

Astro, Kemp was a guy I loved to watch, even when he was puttin’ the hurt on my Bulls. Too bad he’s grabbin’ more “peace pipes” than he is boards now. What a shame. That guy was the epitome of an athletic big. Don’t forget about Derrick Coleman, who should have been one of the greatest power forwards if he would’ve gotten his motivation out of the ditch. But you want to go a little further back? Tell you who we could use a good reincarnation of right now: Larry Nance! Yeahhh, baby!

By Astro Joe

August 15, 2006 11:01 PM | Link to this

Ray, gotta disagree with you there. If I could reincarnate someone, I’d take Buck Williams for this team. I still think what we need is a hard-nosed low post presence at PF. Nance would be nice, he was the original shot-blocking forward. But Buck would bring that nasty attitude and competitive fire this team needs. Fun debate, and we would do a helluva lot better with either Nance or Buck.

By HB Ando

August 15, 2006 11:49 PM | Link to this

MM, got to take umbridge with your comments that I shy away from analyzing how our parts fit together. You may need to go back a ways and check out old posts. I was pretty much the first to go into detail on the question over how to fit Josh and Marvin together, both in the immediate term, as well as the implications for the long haul. With regards to your break down of minutes, I’m of the mind that Childress and Shelden will get less minutes than you think, and, with Speedy, Lue (who I think will play mor than your projections suggest) and Salim, Joe won’t be playing much point, unless an injury occurs to one of the little guys. I think you’ll see Zaza playing some four, and the team going big with both Zaza and Wright on the floor at times, as opposed to Shelden stepping up very much.

Everybody here has something they want to get off their chest, or they wouldn’t show up here day after day, spouting off. There are no rules that define the purpose of this blog. It’s free-form. I’ll switch to talking about the product at hand, when there’s some action on the court to validate some of our varying perspectives. Until then, any attempts to confirm one opinion of what is, and what will be, is just a bunch of posturing. Different folks have different predictions of how this season will play itself out. Some are rosier than others. Anyone who thinks they have the right to tell others what their contributions should be here needs to get over themselves. Speak your mind and let others say their peace.

On the issue of needing to bone up on my psychology, I have to laugh, as I have a Master’s degree in Counseling, and walked away from a PhD program in Clinical Psychology about 7 years back, to pursue business opportunities. My point, since you missed it, is that you’re confusing negative conclusions, or the expectation of less than optimal outcomes, with perceived negative feelings about the management situation. When you tell me to “stop being so negative all the time”, what you’re actually asking me to do is stop coming to the conclusions that the expected outcome of Billy Knight’s job performance will be negative. I can’t do that. That’s my honest, subjective perspective on the situation. My belief is that the team is in the wrong hands. The continued expectation of less than optimal, or from my perspective, less than acceptable, team performance, compared to what I think could, or should, have been done, leads me to desire to see the general manager replaced. So one of two things has to happen for me to leave that opinion behind: the team has to exceed my expectations, which have been clearly documented, or Billy Knight has to be replaced.

I’ll break down rotations with you all day if you want. If Shelden can’t crack the front line rotation (and I don’t consider 10 minutes per game cracking the rotation), then we’ll likely see the same lineup that was unable to defend the paint adequately while Harrington was out for a stretch during the second half of the season. Wright will help, and Speedy on the ball defense should do a better job of limiting the number of 2-on-1 breakdowns that Zaza dealt with last year. But our problem was defending the paint over the course of 48 minutes, primarily against other teams’ starters. So how will Shelden’s 10 minutes, against other teams’ second line, impact the core issue of a lack of a shot blocking presence? During the majority of the game, it’s still going to be two small forwards and one of two non-shot blocking 4/5’s on the floor. Wright will be a more physical presence on the block, which will end up being valuable. But the essential need remains largely unfilled.

What remains unclear, and what will have a tremendous impact on how the team evolves, is what type of tempo Woody decides to employ. Seems this team is built to run, so will we attempt to outscore our opponents with our athleticism, or grind it out and try and hide some of our defensive limitations by limiting the number of possessions our opponents can expect. Clearly, Johnson can play any type of tempo that is asked of him. He’s just that complete. Seems that Speedy is better suited for open court hoops, and I’m confident that Josh is better filling the wings on the break, than making structured decisions in the half-court, at this stage of his young career. I think Marvin’s shooting ability and basketball IQ make him the #2 option in our half-court sets. His fundamentals are just stronger, and the attention Johnson is going to get from the opposition is going to provide Marvin the opportunity to be an 18-20 point scorer this season (I know it’s early, but I think he’s a versatile enough scorer, and he’s going to get the requisite touchs). Josh will get his baskets in transition, and the baseline alley-oops should be plentiful. I’ve got no real concern about this team being offensively potent. I just think they’re going to have some real match-up problems defensively, and their relative youth will continue to show up with losses in tight games.

With all the moves I think should have been done differently, in the end I would let go of all of those concerns if Billy had drafted the potential solution at center, by trading down. Even if an O’Bryant, Sene or Simmons wasn’t really able to contribute this year, you could see the plan to place a true anchor behind Josh and Marvin for the future. The fact that many of you don’t view that mistake as critically as I do doesn’t change my opinion of the damage that choice will cost this team over the next few years (unless we’re so bad that we keep our top-3 pick, which would be great for our future, but, I think, would pretty much confirm that Knight had truly backed his way into building a strong roster-I mean how could anybody in their right mind say he’d done a great job if we end up with a bottom-3 record and Oden or Noah?).

Ray, you got a little outside your range suggesting that intellectuals can’t problem solve. I believe that most folks who actually know me view me as an intellectual (but I understand that you’re trying to put quotes around one versus the trait of the other). And I can assure you that my problem solving skills can hang with the most clever of minds. You know better than to try a sweeping generalization of human personality types. You certainly wouldn’t be happy if anyone here tried to characterize or stereotype you based on what little insight your posts provide on your sense of self. Laid back Ray, the voice of reason, is a much more effective communicator than the Ray telling us all how the world goes around. But that’s just from one soap box to another, brother.

Night y’all. Good to be back (I think). Now let’s get that pick, so we can figure out whether it’s going to have value, or is just meant to appease the general public, for spin.

By HB Ando

August 15, 2006 11:51 PM | Link to this

And damn, Joe and Ray, I’d take a 32+ year old version of either of those guys right now. Get us a guy like that and I’d be headin’ up to Philips to apologize to Billy for all the ways I’ve wronged him……………

By Ken Strickland

August 15, 2006 11:53 PM | Link to this

ASTRO JOE, thanks for the link. I held off on responding so I could read the posts I was certain would be forthcoming. As you can see nobody saw fit to either read it or respond to it. I guess it was too much for those fans still insisting that Phoenix did not intend to match ATL’s FA offer for JJ. Either way, it’s old news. In addition to being the youngest team in the NBA, we are quick, athletic, versatile and talented. That is something the Hawks haven’t been in yrs and yrs. I think this team has enough of everything it needs to be a playoff contender. It amuses me when I read responses accusing those of us who are able to look beyond our GM’s assumed mistakes, as having low expectations. Then in the same breath, they predict that the team will not win more than 35 games and will certainly not make the playoffs. It kind of makes you wonder exactly who is really guilty of having low expectations, does it not.

By reese

August 16, 2006 12:06 AM | Link to this

Ray, finally we agree on something. Larry Nance was awesome. He played way above the rim on both the offensive and defensive ends. He rotated on defense to cover for Mark Price. He could run the fast break. He would challenge shots instead of just grabbing players.

Yes, I too realize the game has changed. But, every once in awhile a player will exhibit some of the traits from the generation I grew up watching.

I love the way that, Wade, Carmello and Lebron can go to the basket and finish with either hand.

I love the way that Tim Duncan can consistently hit the bank shot from either side of the basket.

I love the fact that you can count on Ray Allen and Dirk Nowitski to make 90% of their free throws and 40% of their 3 point shots.

I love the way that Steve Nash can penetrate into the lane, find the open man for an easy layup or continue to the rim and float up a layup over the outstretched arms of defenders.

I love the way that Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady and Kobe Bryant can bring their teams back from the brink of elimination and get the win for their team with a mixture of acrobatic layups and hitting jumpers with defenders in their face.

I love the way that Shaq/Mourning, Rasheed/Wallace, Brendon Haywood/Etan Thomas, Garnett/Griffen, Yao/Mutombo and Amare/marion block the shots of players who have blown by their guards and small forwards or grab 20 or more rebounds.

Yes, the game has changed, but the ability to shoot with both hands, the ability to hit the bank shot, the ability to make free throws, the ability to hit 3 point shots, the ability to make the assist or make the defensive player think that you are going to pass and then you shoot, the ability to make acrobatic layups or hit jumpers with players in their face, the ability to block shots and grab rebounds will always be a part of the game.

Now, I guess we’ll have to hope and pray that this collection of hawks players can some how play at a level in which I could have easily replaced someone’s name above with theirs. AMEN.

By mountain_jim

August 16, 2006 08:45 AM | Link to this

Hey Astro Joe, I know it was not the point of you posting that article, but I can’t believe that writer says that Diaw being better than JJ right now:

“Last year at this time, shooter Joe Johnson made a strange decision. He wanted to play for the Atlanta Hawks instead of the contending Suns. But rather than let him go, the owner of the Suns approved the matching of Johnson’s free-agent contract.

Then Colangelo did the Colangelo thing. The obvious thing would have been to match the contract and keep Johnson. Instead, he pulled off a sign-and-trade and sent Johnson, a proven player, for Diaw, an unproven player.

“We tried to get Diaw at the draft (in 2003) and then tried to get him after the draft,” Colangelo said. “The owner thought I was crazy when I said we’d do a sign-and-trade.”

The better player right now: Diaw.”

That’s just such BS in my opinion, and makes me question anything the writer says. Put Diaw in other systems without a Nash and see how good he is at this point in his career. I hope JJ has a great run with the US team and gets the visibility he deserves instead of being underappreciated and run down because he is a Hawk.

By lacsho

August 16, 2006 08:47 AM | Link to this

Ray Do I suggest that the Hawk fans need to stop supporting this team No, but it can be done. For example see Charlotte. That is reality.

In know ways will I ever suggest that MLK was stupid. That was not my intention. The purpose for that line was this man saw a lot the positive in the world, but he was very, very, very conscience of the horrible conditions in the world. I guess that’s why he didn’t sit back, and just watch. Hmmmmm I think he was an intellectual too. But according to you analysis, intellects don’t do shyt but watch. I guess we are really must to thank GOD for our wonderful police force, they are really holding us down and helping us attain global harmony. No Disrespect to the good police officers!!
So now intellectuals are not partaking in solutions to bring forth world harmony: Doctors, Lawyers, Researchers, Teachers, Professors, etc. I think they would disagree with you. Now you are stereotyping a group of people. Hmmmm, but we’re no going to stereotype you cops. How does that stereotype feel? Obviously you don’t like it, so therefore why would you turn around and do the same to another group of people?

Another one of your famous quotes: intellects should be part of a person, not that which solely defines a person. It should be characteristics or abilities that a person possesses, not that by which a person is restricted. So I take it you know everything about my character from this blog, you have that much insight on me. Well my friend the statements from the Hawks basketball blog doesn’t define my character nor does it define me as a human being.

I know the purpose for this blog, but it’s ok to mix world views with basketball; however, I forgot you are the Ultimate blogger, who lays all the rules down about blogging. My next post will be strictly basketball officer please do not lock me up. I’ll be at the Hawks games; I’m not a runner, and I’m not hard to find.

By lacsho

August 16, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

I apologize to all of the B-Ball folks, like I stated previously. I will restrict my comments on this blog to basketball.

By NmbaOneFan

August 16, 2006 09:30 AM | Link to this

Good Mornign guys…. just a quick observation, why hasn’t anyone said anything about Solomon Jones. I will let you in on something I was recently told by a friend I work with who is very good friends with someone on the Hawks trainers staff and has informed my friend that Solomon Jones is a steal as a 2nd round pick. From what he told me the kid is very active on the boards defensively and has the ability to block and alter or change shots. I am hoping this is all true and that maybe this Jones kid will turn out to be better than Sheldon Williams initially or even be more of an immediate inpact. I am not claiming that this will happen it;s just no one has really brought up anything regarding this kid. The thing that is really attractive about this kid is his wingspan and quiet demeanor to improve and be coached. Sometimes we overlook the obvious and tend to focus on Sheldon Williams and the others.

By lacsho

August 16, 2006 09:58 AM | Link to this

By Astro Joe

August 16, 2006 09:59 AM | Link to this

NmbaOneFan, that sounds very encouraging. Personally, I was hoping that Jones would spend some time in the NBDL working out to strengthen his frame. He definitely has a crazy wingspan and vertical leap. So he should be an effective weak side defender right away. But if he is going to do more than that, he will likely need to go on the Josh Smith/Dwight Howard weight gain program. Either way, I’m glad to have him on the team. Once again, sounds like BK drafted a willing worker for the team.

By HB Ando

August 16, 2006 10:04 AM | Link to this

While I can’t agree that Diaw is the better player, he is better than many of you understand, and his emergence, while aided by playing with Nash, is certainly not because of it. In fact, if playing with Nash was the primary reason players blossom, in a tremendous offensive system, then Johnson shouldn’t have looked like an even better player here in Atlanta. Now some of you would immediately say that he had the ball in his hands here more, and got to show how well-rounded his game is. But that’s the point about Diaw. His skills and improvement didn’t come in the form of scoring. He’s a four-position player, who averaged six assists on offense, and defended opposing centers on defense. He’s become, in one season out of Atlanta, one of THE most versatile players in the NBA.

What the article on Colangelo failed to mention, that other articles have, regarding the handling of the Johnson trade, was that the new owner, Sarver, was not willing to put his team over the salary cap, for luxury tax implications. And with Stoudemire approaching a max contract, paying their fourth option, Joe Johnson, $70 million, just wasn’t feasible. It was genius on Colangelo’s part to extract such a high price from Billy, for a player his owner wasn’t going to match. That’s what good GM’s do. Bad GM’s are always on the sucker side, like our very own BK. Nothing new here, but it sounded like a few of you thought that article confirmed that Phoenix would have matched without the compensation Billy gave away. And there’s absolutely nothing in the report that suggests that was the case.

By jlewis

August 16, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

I have a question for the board, you guys debate over draft picks and Billy overpaying for JJ, name two Hawk draft picks in the last 15 years better than Joe Johnson? I think this well let you know whether Billy overpaid with the draft picks, and you all know Boris Diaw sucked in ATL, and outside of Phoenix, there is no market for a 6’8 center, or a 6’8 power forward that can’t guard power forwards or small forwards, and does not have the speed and quickness to play the point, or shooting ability to play the two.

By honest_abe

August 16, 2006 10:19 AM | Link to this

snoooooooooooore…….

has it gotten so boring we’ve gone back to discussing jj and boriiis? i was the ONLY boris fan in the atl…and by the time the jj trade came around, i was so fed up wish his lack of improvement i didn’t care he was a part of the trade… so to think it’s bk’s fault for letting him go is oh so stupid…

but yes, many of you are failing to realize how good diaw is… you can’t contribute ALL of his new found success on the system and nash (although some of the credit has to go there) diaw is the captain of the french national team, he causes all kinds of matchup problems for his opponents… with his ability to take bigger opponents off the dribble and then he can post up the smaller ones…. diaw is one of the up and coming players in this league!! just don’t blame bk for letting him go or even suggest he’s a better player than jj…

nice post earlier ray!

By Astro Joe

August 16, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

Quote from Ando: It was genius on Colangelo’s part to extract such a high price from Billy, for a player his owner wasn’t going to match. Nothing new here, but it sounded like a few of you thought that article confirmed that Phoenix would have matched without the compensation Billy gave away. And there’s absolutely nothing in the report that suggests that was the case.

Quote from article: “Last year at this time, shooter Joe Johnson made a strange decision. He wanted to play for the Atlanta Hawks instead of the contending Suns. But rather than let him go, the owner of the Suns approved the matching of Johnson’s free-agent contract.

There have been other articles that speculated Sarver wanted to stay away from the luxury tax, but that does not necessarily mean that NOT keeping JJ was the only way to skin that cat. Seems to me that smart GMs always know more than 1 way to resolve an issue. So the notion that Colangelo would have never figured out a way to resign JJ and work the salary cap downward a year later seems like an insult to his managerial capabilities.

Diaw’s success, IMHO, has much more to do with D’Antoni holding his hand, then it does with Nash. D’Antoni is probably a top 5 coach in our league. And yes, he could probably make every player on our team better. But we don’t have him and neither do 29 other teams. But we do have JJ and he has shown that he can be an outstanding player for coaches with varying coashing styles. Let’s hope that Diaw can stay close to D’Antoni until he grows into a mature adult who doesn’t need to have his feelings managed like a little boy.

By mountain_jim

August 16, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

I’ve been hearing rumours that while the Atlanta Spirit had allowed BK to spend up to the cap, the Belkin decision changed that and now he is basically not supposed to spend any of his post Al cap room or take any salary back, which Indy knows and which has totally hamstrung BK’s ability to deal Al elsewhere.

I can understand that stance from an ownership who may be forced to sell their investment at cost, though if true it will hurt the Hawks for however long this court case goes on, which could be years..

Where is the commish in all this?

My issue is why can’t Sekou or some other sports journalist from the AJC start digging and report the truth on what’s really going on behind the scenes with the Spirit group as it relates to BK’s ability to GM?

I understand about not burning sources or access, but if the Hawks have decided to cheap out thus restricting their ability to compete on a level playing field for possibly years more, don’t the Atlanta fans who pay their share for these teams have a right to know about this?

Sekou, I love your writing and reportage, but your frequent hints about how you suspect this has affected the daily business of the Hawks to me is not enough - I want somebody to investigate and speak plainly about what is going on behind the scenes on this deal, and why BK and the Hawks apparently have no other options in this deal but to get screwed by Indy.

**Where’s the factual reporting from the AJC about new financial restrictions on the Hawks because of the Belkin case - you allude to their likely existence but nobody reports on it.

I am not saying it should be you, Sekou, as we saw what happened to a former Falcon beat writer who p** off the ownership and coach he was covering, but the AJC has independant sports columnists who should be assigned to investigate and report on the possible ongoing damage this legal limbo situation is doing to our beloved Hawks franchise. imho.**

By A Thinking Fan

August 16, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

Same old crap today here, let me go back to the redneck Falcon’s blog - it is too much fun over there - just kidding… JJ/Phx/Diaw - BORING!!!

By roan st

August 16, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

NmbaOneFan, I have read positive things about solomon jones but have held back my enthusiasm in fear of being ripped to shreds. He is a bit raw but has incredible athletic skills. I read that the kid has a 39 inch vertical to go along with that lenghty wing span. Last season his two best games came against the vaunted UCONN front line. I think he will need a few years of NBa seasoning to come into his own but the kid has some upside.

By mykhalc

August 16, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

ATF, just make sure you sign-off before dark on that FALCONS blog!!!LOL

some great posts last nite fellas!! (ray,mm,aj,etc)

MM, where u at in cali?? i’m in SF. if you’re close it’d be cool to hook up when the young guns are out this way!!

may the JJ/DIAW debate rest in peace!!! we got the player we NEED!!! PERIOD!!!

m_jim, i second your last post!!! that would bring a lot of perspective to our discussions, that’s for sure!!

By A Thinking Fan

August 16, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

MYKHALC Love the west coast, have peeps out there in the bay area. Use to run through the streets of Oakland back in the day - PARTE’ CENTRAL!!!

By mykhalc

August 16, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

ATF, the BAY AREA is it my friend!!! LUV IT!! still got my place in grant park in he ATL but there’s no place in the US like the bay area!! IMHO!! LOL

MM, wanted to acknowledge your quote from last nite…* it’s funny how around here not being negative has come to mean you have low standards or are settling for mediocrity.* man, hit the nail on the head with that one!! WELL SAID!!!

have a good day to all!! i’m out for a few!!

By lacsho

August 16, 2006 12:51 PM | Link to this

Here’s an interesting take on Indy’s perspective of the Harrington dilema :

My buddy from down the street calls. Says he has a tee time at a fancy-schmancy golf course. The kind that requires collared shirts.

“Want to play?” he asks. I groan. “Can’t,” I say. “The Al Harrington trade is imminent. Could happen at any moment. Got to be vigilant, sit by the phone like a love-struck teenager, got to be ready to spring into action and cover the news conference at Conseco Fieldhouse.” My buddy from down the street has heard this before. He asked me to play golf twice last week. And twice the week before that. Even said he would stop making those odd belching sounds during my backswing. My responses were as follows: Nope. Can’t. Sorry. Rain check. Maybe after the trade. “Is this something personal?” my buddy from down the street asks. Yeah, I tell him. I’m angry at Donnie Walsh, Larry Bird, Al Harrington, John Edwards, Billy Knight, Arn Tellem, both Simon brothers and several current and former Atlanta Hawks, most notably Jon Koncak. They are ruining what’s left of my summer. All I do now is sit in my office. Waiting. Wondering. Praying to a higher power (no, David Stern, not you). I am held hostage. The Imminent Harrington Trade Watch, Day 106. It doesn’t take this long for Colts radio analyst Ted Marchibroda to make a point. If I’m not mistaken, the Harrington trade started becoming imminent between the end of Prohibition and Branch McCracken’s first day as Indiana University’s basketball coach. When will the phone ring? And when it does, will I see “Pacers Sports & Entertainment” on caller ID? Will this torment ever end? One day, my wife calls. “Hi, Honey, just calling from work,” my wife says. “Oh, shoot, it’s you,” I responded. Bob, meet the couch. All for Baby Al. All for a guy who’s never been an All-Star. Kobe Bryant, I’ll drop-kick my summer. But Al? Now, don’t get me wrong: I like Harrington. I like him enough, I’m getting slightly wobbly about that Pacers-won’t-make-the-playoffs prediction. The reason being, the Pacers won’t be losing any players in the transaction. (Does anybody know what a $7.5 million trade exception looks like, and does it need to pass a physical?) I’m not doing cartwheels over it, either. It’s another one of those deals that means the Pacers will not be good enough to compete for a championship, and not bad enough to have a real draft lottery shot at Greg Oden. They are hitching their future to Jermaine O’Neal and Harrington, which looks like a true commitment to being above average. Now the editor calls. “Just want you to be on your toes,” he says. “Oprah just said on her show that the Al deal is imminent.” I scoff. It’s what columnists do when editors have the temerity to speak. I scoff because I’ve seen these imminent stories. Every local station in town has reported, “Channel So-and-So has learned the Harrington trade is imminent.” Ultimately, I guess it’s how you define “imminent.” My dictionary reads, “About to happen, looming.” Maybe in TV, “imminent” means, “sometime before global warming results in a giant killer tsunami and wipes the human race off the face of the planet.” Potato, po-tah-toe. (I can’t wait until the deal gets done. The TV guys will need Tommy John surgery after patting themselves on the back. “As we first reported 114 days ago …”) The days pass, grow shorter, along with my patience. I want to play golf. No, they could call. I want to go rollerblading on the Monon. No, they could call. I want to mow the grass … well, OK, but the grass does need to be cut. I am in limbo, in Pacers purgatory, shipwrecked on Baby Al Island. Who’s on the line? The guy from the 2010 census? Has it been that long? Now, in the days, weeks, months and decades since this trade became imminent, I’ve done some reading, and have learned from reading Conrad Brunner’s house column on Pacers.com that given Walsh’s track record as team CEO, we should withhold all intemperate commentary and simply acknowledge that he knows what he’s doing. The same applies, albeit to a lesser extent, to team president Bird, whom Bruno once commended for his draft-day insight into the selection of Danny Granger — a top 10 player who somehow slipped to the Pacers, and was such a no-brainer selection, my cat would have chosen him. Well, the smarter cat of the two. So I’m going to get on board with the team now, because those bandwagons can get a little bit crowded. Once the Pacers get this Harrington deal done — and add a body through the mid-level exception — they will win an NBA title. I think it’s imminent.

Bob Kravitz is a columnist for The Indianapolis Star. Call him at (317) 444-6643 or e-mail bob.kravitz@indystar.com.

Copyright 2006 IndyStar.com. All rights reserved

By A Thinking Fan

August 16, 2006 01:05 PM | Link to this

lacsho That’s good stuff my man…

By honest_abe

August 16, 2006 01:47 PM | Link to this

great stuff~!

By Astro Joe

August 16, 2006 01:58 PM | Link to this

Jim, I understand your concern from a fan’s point of view. But I doubt that anyone would ever get a straight answer from the owners. Two schools of thought. Owners are investing as much as they can given the legal hurdles that face them. Surely, that would have to be less than the amount if there were no legal hurdles. Second theory, they do not know if they will maintain ownership control for 3 months or 3 decades. Would any of us invest more than the price of an oil change and tank of gas in a car if there was a chance that the car may be rewarded to another driver in a few months? Me, I’m buying used tires, used windshield wipers and QT gas until I know that puppy is mine.

The NBA has established a minimum team salary limit, the Spirit have met that obligation. And they have essentially managed to maintain salaries year-over-year. (If they had let the salaries drop significantly, that could have been construed by Belkin’s attorneys as devaluing the property. Using my car analogy, it would have been like selling off the radio, rims and replacing the AC unit with a portable fan). I can’t figure out why they would be compelled to invest in what come be a very short-term business opportunity for them. Anyway, I can’t imagine a journalist would be able to get them to admit that they have boxed themselves into a corner and left Hawks fans with a bottom 3 payroll team for an indefinite period of time.

And at the end of the day, they could say anything and continue to operate the franchise in a manner that is 180-degrees different than what they said. These are not elected officials, we can’t hold them accountable for misrepresenting the truth.

I, too, would like to hear the truth. But in lieu of that, I use the actions (or inactions) as evidence of what that truth really is. Plus, actions always speak louder than words.

By newkid

August 16, 2006 02:04 PM | Link to this

I think some here don’t view Chad Ford as very credible, nonetheless here’s his latest on Al and the Pacers.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insid…had&id=2551144

For these five teams, a surprisingly silent summer By Chad Ford ESPN Insider

A few weeks ago we documented what has become a lethargic offseason. While a number of teams have been busy, only two — the Bulls and Hornets — have done enough to give themselves a major boost in the playoff hunt next year.

The Pacers will join that group if they finally close on the Al Harrington deal with the Hawks. Sources say a deal is close and awaiting approval from Pacers owner Herb Simon. It’s hard to fathom that Simon will pass on an opportunity to get Harrington at a below-market-value deal while giving up only a first-round pick in return.

What’s interesting to me is the fact that so many bad teams did little to improve themselves this summer. A few, like the Blazers and Raptors, had significant movement. While I don’t think it will be enough to push either into the playoffs, at least they can tell fans they’re trying.

On the other hand, how do the advertising whizzes for the Sixers, Warriors, Knicks, Sonics and Hawks sell their fans on next season?

“Wait ‘til ‘08!” doesn’t sound like a slogan that’s going to sell a lot of season tickets.

Here’s a look at five lottery teams that have remained surprisingly quiet this offseason.

Philadelphia 76ers

The Sixers are the most surprising of the 2006 offseason underachievers. They’re coming off a disappointing lottery appearance. They own the fourth-highest payroll in the league. Allen Iverson looks like he already has his bags packed. They even have legit trade bait in Iverson and Samuel Dalembert.

Everyone thought the team was in for a radical overhaul.

And what have they done? They let John Salmons walk away and then signed Willie Green, coming off a season-long injury, to an overpriced deal.

Ugh. That’s it, Sixers fans.

The fact that GM Billy King backed away from trading Iverson probably says more about Iverson’s trade value than it does about Philly’s resolve to change. The Sixers just didn’t get the offers they were hoping for and don’t seem to want to go into full rebuilding mode.

So what can Sixers fans look forward to this year?

While almost every team in the Atlantic Division improved modestly, the Sixers have nowhere to go but down. Look for them to battle the Knicks for the worst record in the Atlantic.

Golden State Warriors

After killing the Warriors for years, I got on the bandwagon last fall and predicted that Golden State would break the longest playoff drought in the league. Baron Davis and Jason Richardson gave them one of the most promising backcourts in the league. Warriors VP Chris Mullin was raving about Mike Dunleavy’s improvement over the summer and eventually signed him to a substantial $45 million extension. Troy Murphy was healthy. Ike Diogu was supposed to add rebounding and toughness in the paint.

But once January hit, the wheels came off. The Warriors were 17-14 on Dec. 31, but went 3-9 in January and never recovered. By the end of the season, the team had won just 34 games, duplicating their miserable 2004-05 outing. Losing Baron Davis for 28 games was part of the problem, but the truth is that the Warriors were just 23-31 when he played.

The last month was ugly. They endured a nine-game losing streak that stretched from March into April. It appeared that several players had quit. According to one player on the team, the tension between some players on the team and head coach Mike Montgomery was combustible.

Mullin went into the summer vowing to change the team’s chemistry around, but three months later … the Warriors look the same.

Mullin has been working the phones all summer but has very little to show for it. He did manage to move Derek Fisher’s hard-to-trade contract, but he got nothing but future salary cap relief in return.

The free agent market has been unkind. The team made a major push for Harrington, but the Hawks didn’t want the bloated contracts of Murphy or Mike Dunleavy in return.

The Warriors’ problem is that they continue to remain on the fence between winning and development. As always, they have a number of talented young players (Monta Ellis, Mickael Pietrus, Andris Biedrins, Diogu and rookie Patrick O’Bryant) in the pipeline. They don’t want to trade them.

However, their veterans, with the exception of Jason Richardson, are virtually untradeable. Mullin is guilty for most of the bad contracts. He vastly overpaid Murphy, Dunleavy and Adonal Foyle, limiting his ability to make changes to his team. A number of GMs have told me they’ve been offered all three, but no one will touch them. The word around the league is that Davis is also available, but given his injury history and rep as a chemistry killer, no one will touch him.

If the Warriors can’t trade the millstones that are dragging them down (those four are still owed a combined $182 million over the course of their Golden State careers) and refuse to trade the young talent that can’t get them anywhere yet, then Warriors fans can rest assured that another 30- to 35-win season is coming.

New York Knicks

Last year the Knicks played for the right to hand the Bulls the No. 2 pick in the draft. Isiah Thomas still argues that he’d take Eddy Curry over who the Bulls got — Tyrus Thomas — any day. We’ll see if the feels the same way once he’s forced to hand over the Knicks’ first-round pick to the Bulls again next summer.

If the Bulls hit the jackpot with the Knicks’ No. 1 pick (and the right to draft Greg Oden), there could be a riot in New York.

As it stands, the Knicks’ biggest offseason change is at coach. Larry Brown, the Knicks’ savior this time last year, is out. Thomas, the Knicks’ master architect, is in. I actually think the Knicks will be better with Isiah at the helm.

Brown sabotaged the team, in my opinion, to convince James Dolan that the roster needed a major overhaul. Thomas wasn’t going to agree with Brown’s assessment of Isiah’s roster, so Brown dramatized the problems for Dolan.

Brown used 42 different starting lineups, an NBA record, last year in New York. Everyone was confused. No one knew where they stood. You could start one game and get a DNP the next. It was a mess.

With Thomas fighting for his professional life, things will be different. The Knicks do have talent and he’ll lean heavily on Stephon Marbury, Steve Francis, Jamal Crawford, Curry and probably Channing Frye to save his job.

The Knicks, with a steadier hand at the helm, will probably win 10 more games next season.

However, the rest of their summer has been anticlimactic by comparison. The Knicks did land Jared Jeffries in free agency, but I’m not a big fan. He’s long and he hustles and since he doesn’t shoot the ball, he’ll actually be popular with all of the Knicks’ gunners. But I don’t think he wins New York any extra games. Ditto for rookies Renaldo Balkman and Mardy Collins, who likely won’t see the light of day this year.

Surprisingly, the Knicks have restrained themselves from being more aggressive. Jalen Rose and Maurice Taylor are both very tradeable because they are in the last year of their contracts. Nate Robinson and David Lee have trade value as well.

But the word out of New York is that Isiah has no choice but to play the hand he’s dealt. Dolan apparently isn’t in the mood to swap any more expiring contracts for long-term deals. The Knicks’ payroll is at an absurd $122 million this year.

Thomas fought for every one of the players on his roster. Now he’ll find out whether they were worth fighting for. If this were a fantasy team, the answer may be yes. But as an NBA team, the Knicks’ long-term future still looks very bleak.

Seattle SuperSonics

The team was everyone’s darling in 2004-05 but reverted to form last season. The Sonics showed they could still light it up offensively, but so could every team that played against them.

This year, uncertainty surrounding the sale of the franchise has the potential to add to their woes. While the team did sign restricted free agent Chris Wilcox to a three-year deal on Tuesday, Mickael Gelabale, last year’s second-round draft pick, is the only major addition to the club so far.

It’s difficult to see what the long-term strategy in Seattle is. For this team to be a serious playoff contender, players like Wilcox, Luke Ridnour, Robert Swift, Johan Petro, Mouhamed Saer Sene and Gelebale are going to have to play over their heads.

If the team fails again, there’s a strong likelihood that potential free agent Rashard Lewis will bolt for greener pastures next summer. That leaves the team with a number of promising young players and an aging Ray Allen.

I know most Sonics fans quit caring when Gary Payton was shipped out of town. For the dozen or so that are left, it may be time to retire those jerseys.

Atlanta Hawks

What is Billy Knight doing?

That’s been a key question in the NBA for the past several summers.

An ownership feud lies at the heart of much of the Hawks’ inability to get things done this summer, but even that has to be contextualized. The feud began, in large part, over the performance of Knight. Steve Belkin thought Knight was killing the franchise and disagreed vehemently over giving up so many assets for the right to give Joe Johnson a max deal. The rest of the Hawks’ owners disagreed, and a year later, they’re still in court shouting it out.

In the meantime, the Hawks’ hands have basically been tied. (Were Johnson and Knight really worth all of this?)

The drafting of Shelden Williams signaled that the Hawks were serious about getting a player who could help them now. But after watching Williams’ miserable performance in the summer league, there are now serious questions about how NBA ready he really is.

They did throw a lot of money this summer at Speedy Claxton (a diminutive, oft-injured scoring guard in a point guard’s body) and plan on giving Lorenzen Wright (a 30-year-old center who averaged 5 points and 5 rebounds last season) a two-year deal when they trade Harrington. Neither move will push them far out of the basement of the East.

Yes, expected improvements by Josh Smith, Josh Childress and Marvin Williams should help, but all of that will be offset by losing Harrington, the team’s second-leading scorer and only real inside presence.

Maybe next year, when their ownership question is answered, the Hawks will finally be able to rise out of the rubble. But this year? Pray for Oden.

By mountain_jim

August 16, 2006 02:27 PM | Link to this

Good response, Astro Joe… I don’t disagree with any of it. It’s true I am just a frustrated fan, venting because it seems to me that AJC Sports has not reported on this issue much beyond the actual events in court, and the NBA (which bears some responsibility for this bad ownership marriage) has not publically commented or acted at all since this ownership legal limbo state began.

So the franchise I have been a fan of for over 30 years appears hobbled for the foreseeable future, and nothing much can be done about it by fans other than venting, acceptance, or ceasing interest.

By Kappy

August 16, 2006 02:35 PM | Link to this

So you guys want Buck Williams and Larry Nance eh? well, his name is shelden williams. can we give the guy a chance for crying out loud. we saw four summer league games and we’re already writing him off. give the guy a break! and a chance!

By rian

August 16, 2006 03:59 PM | Link to this

Will someone (Preferably HB or Astro Joe since they seem to know the game) please explain the concept of a mid level trade exception. What is it? How long can you have it? How did the Pacers get it? Why don’t we have our own? When was this concept intiated? Is there a high level and low level trade exception? Are trade exceptions availablke for amounts other than $7.5 million. SS seems to think we all understand what this is but I dont. Call me out if you want but please explain this to me.

By Astro Joe

August 16, 2006 04:27 PM | Link to this

Rian, I’m not sure anyone other than David Stern fully understands the concept and there are smarter folks on here than me who can define it but here is my shot. Trade exceptions are available for teams over the salary cap. They allow a team to acquire a player without having that incremental salary count toward the luxury tax. For example, when the Knicks signed Jeffries to the $30M deal, it will actually cost them $60M because they have to pay the dollar-for-dollar luxury tax on his contract. The Pacers have no salary cap room, so any incremental deal would put them in luxury tax he11. Because they acquired a $7.5M trade exception in the Peja deal with the Hornets, they can offer Al up to that trade exception amount. The Hawks do not have an exception because they are sooo far under the cap. I’m not sure how a team gets an exception to begin with, but evidently, the Pacers are the only team with a trade exception large enough to bring Al on board at a decent salary without having to send back contracts to the Hawks.

Not sure if this helps any, but that’s the way I understand it. The Hawks will NOT receive the trade exception from the Pacers. It essentially evaporates once the deal is done. Its like a “no luxury tax on one trade” card that allows the Pacers to bring Al on board without any luxury tax penalties. It is not transferrable if used for acquiring a player (but it can purchased as was the case when the Hornets sold it to the Pacers).

Oh, and then there is also a mid-level exemption and a low-level exemption. The mid-level is around $5M and low-level I think is like $1.5M. A team, again with no salary cap room, can sign a player to either of those terms without paying the luxury tax. And each team gets one of those per year (I believe). Again, the Hawks do not have that because they are so far below the salary line. As you can see, the NBA cap is really soft. There are at least 3 ways a team can still add salary without getting taxed.

Okay, I hope I didn’t confuse you. Because, I think I confused myself.

By rian

August 16, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Thanks Astro - that really clears it up. If we were right up against the cap and had an exemption or exception and did not use it that particular year would it carry over to the next year?

By Astro Joe

August 16, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

Trade exceptions have a one year expiration date. I’m not sure about the rules around the mid/low level exemptions. For some reason, I think you can only have 1 player per year signed to each of those exemptions. But I am less certain of that one. I am sure that I read that trade exceptions expire after one year.

By newkid

August 16, 2006 05:22 PM | Link to this

Rian, here’s some additional info on a few exceptions, and a link you might use to get much more insight. Complicated stuff.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#70 MID-LEVEL SALARY EXCEPTION — This exception allows a team to sign any free agent to a contract equal to the average salary, even if they are over the cap. This exception may be split and given to multiple players. It may be used for contracts of up to five years in length, and raises are limited to 8% of the salary in the first year of the contract. Signing a player to a multi-year contract does not affect a team’s ability to use this exception every year. For example, a team can sign a player to a five-year contract using this exception and still use the exception the following year to sign another player.
If the player is a restricted free agent with one or two years of service and receives an offer sheet from a new team, the player’s prior team may use the Mid-Level exception to match the offer sheet . Here are the actual values of this exception for each season. Note that since this exception is based on the average player salary, the actual value of this exception is not determined until the start of the free agent signing period. 2005-06 $5 million 2006-07 $5.215 million

What is the Traded Player exception?

Exceptions are the mechanisms that allow teams to function above the salary cap. Any trade which results in the team ending up over the salary cap requires an exception. This is true even if the team is moving downward in salary. For example, if the salary cap is $50 million, a team has a team salary of $55 million, and they want to trade a $5 million player for a $4 million player, they still have to use an exception. Even though their team salary would be decreasing by $1 million, the fact that they would still be over the salary cap ($54 million) means that an exception is required.

The Traded Player exception is the primary means used by teams over the cap for completing trades. It allows teams to make trades that leave them over the cap, but it places several restrictions on those trades.
The “Minimum Salary exception” allows teams to acquire minimum-salary players without regard to salary matching under the Traded Player exception. For example, a team over the cap can trade a second round draft pick to another team in exchange for a minimum-salary player, even a 10-year veteran earning over $1 million. To qualify, the player can be signed for no more than two seasons, can be paid no more than the then-minimum salary in any season, and can have no unlikely bonuses.

By michael m.

August 16, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

astro, good post, couldn’t have said it better myself. i can understand and even share in mountain jim’s frustrations, but to believe we are going to get concrete answers out of the quicksand situation our owners find themselves in is, to say the least, naive.

mykhalc, thanks for the shoutout. regarding where i live in cali, i am down in socal. los angeles. would have been nice to take in a game together, though. appreciate the thought.

ando, i didn’t miss any point you made. however, i’m not in your head so i cannot attest to your intentions. go back and look at what you actually wrote. like i said at the time, being emotional does not necessarily have anything to do with having a negative outlook. but whatever, it is neither here nor there at this juncture. i am less interested in making predictions and being right about everything than i am in actually examining the team that we currently have. rather than repeatedly harping on the bad, i choose to see both sides. yin and yang, black and white, light and dark, good and evil. choose whichever you may. but understand that they both exist. you talk about shades of grey and yet, for the most part, you choose not to see both sides. please do not think i am trying to tell you, or anyone, what they can and cannot discuss. we are in agreement that that is not my, or anyone else’s, place. what i was trying to do was draw you out of the abyss to see the light. you have said in the past that you repeat the negative commentary in response to others being overly positive. perhaps that’s true, perhaps not. i take you at your word on it though. if anything, i appreciate that you actually have an opinion that you can defend. and so i want to get you to discuss other matters beyond the same old diatribes. hopefully you get that, although i can understand if it comes off in print as an attack on you. the written medium has its limitations.

anyway, i was glad to see your remarks regarding the team. though i must say i remember your take on josh smith and marvin being that they would not fit together, and your thinking that the drafting of shelden either proved it or something to that effect. i cannot remember exactly. i just remember responding to you and others in saying that those two were our core along with jj, and that we were building around them. neither are going to be shipped out. i remarked that josh smith would grow into a 4 who would cause mismatches for the opposition. i still believe that. and i am happy to say that it seems the summer has enlightened many into believing they can coexist as well. even you seem to buy into that idea more, which i think is smart on your part.

i do agree with you that marvin will become the #2 option on offense, although i feel it may take a couple months before he shows his summer league comfort level in games that actually count. the prowess he unveiled against lighter competition will have to be amped up and refortified once seasoned pros oppose him. but that’s okay, it will most likely take a second before all the pieces get familiar with each other anyway. and i agree josh smith is the #3 option who can affect the game more defensively while still getting almost as many points as marvin when you factor in the putbacks and transition baskets he should easily get in an uptempo offense. which leads me to the following: if woodsen doesn’t take advantage of the ability to finally play uptempo now that we have speedy and additional rebounding talent, then he doesn’t understand this team. i doubt we will play a grind it out game, especially when speedy is on the floor. against teams such as chicago that try to force us into that quagmire, i do feel we have the players to succeed at that tempo as well. our flexibility is a huge bonus this year.

defensively, understand that smith and marvin are both extremely young and capable of giving much more on the defensive end. they are still learning the game. and if they give the type of defensive effort and hustle that woodsen should demand, they can be strong on both ends of the court. when we play a big team like orlando, they will likely see less minutes on the floor together in order to limit the size disadvantage, yielding some to zo and zaza sharing the floor, shelden too. but even against orlando, darko likes playing away from the basket and i think josh smith can most likely match up with him unless darko wisely backs him down.

i am not convinced any of the centers you mentioned as potential draft choices this year are going to amount to much. i am much more certain that none of their upsides relative to shelden’s are so great as to merit your willingness to “let go of all of those concerns” regarding your approval rating of bk. sene intrigues, o’bryant slightly less so, but neither was worthy of being selected at #5 and had we traded down as we both wished they had, it most likely would have been in a deal with new orleans. neither of those guys were around at that point. and i don’t see simmons as being an anchor at the center position. see, there was no great fit for us at #5. that’s just the way the cards land sometimes. like i’ve said, i would have traded up for aldridge. the way the whole shelden thing was handled was idiotic and stupid, but what’s done is done.

i think childress will get around 25 minutes a game so we disagree there. perhaps his average will be closer to twenty since i see certain games where he only gets 15 minutes. again, flexibility and our roster’s ability to swing on any given night depending on who brings it and who the opposition is. anyway, i appreciate the banter back and forth with you and everyone else. i care less than you about predictions and all that. i don’t get the same satisfaction out of being right as you do in this matter. i just want my hawks to become something special. it’s like family. even if they make mistakes, i am not gonna only focus on that. i can beat a horse into the ground with the best of them, but where’s the pleasure…? really. where’s the pleasure in that?

By doc

August 16, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

rian the key after the eloquent way aj has put it and the one that is most vital to the penny pinching hawks is that because of the exeption the pacers can go over the cap so the hawks dont have to relieve them of salary and take back a body that would mean extra costs. aj probably intimated that in his summary but that is the emphasis that the hawk fan who really wants wants to understand some of the grandstanding the hawks are doing to save money instead of their own colic to get rid of. it is a done deal at some point they will be happy because all gm’s get fired and they can shout how right they were. just to me, it is so very negative when they alrerasdy know the outcome

if the deal with the pacers had gone down the way the hawks were wanting they would have essentially paid for lorenzen wright contract in full. they would have given up the obligation to pay edwards to save 1.5 mil and the hawks would have gotten 3 mil as well, that would have paid for wrights salary in full this year. add this to the fact they only picked up speedy for 5.5 mil, jj costs 10 mil less and you lose al’s 7.5 mil or so and it looks real frugal by the hawks as they upgrade the product significantly but not to the level they can compete for more than 40 victories this year.

for those that dont think a 10 win improvement this year isnt significant you have the historical perspective to look at. unless a team picks up a nash, a shaq,a yao ming, a duncan after a year where the main guy robinson goes down to make them lotttery eleigible goes down, there are very few instances of a team goes up significantly in win totals while they DECREASE their payroll which is what the team is doing this year. again if the team goes up in wins while maintining next to lowest salary total that would be huge and the credit would have to go to bk and woody. tears will come from them and the downgraders will never give credit but that is what will be happening as you downgrade the product that for once i look forward to seeing. if they show less this year than last then let the heads roll but not until then.

aj, thanks for the heads up on the colangio comments. though one cant say that it means they wouldnt have ultimately caved in and given up jj gratis it does mean it wanst the slam dunk some have made it out to be as if their opinion was a religion on that one. i have all along contended that their was some significant indecision on phoenix’ part by what i read in their paper, not ours and what was said in the news. jj is a stud and he was worth it.

as far as diaw goes he will have to be manged to where he can play enough to keep his confidence and in a position that he doesnt go too far out from his comfort zone which last year was inside 12 feet. he choked during the playoffs when he had to move further out. he may have to go further out this year if amare is healthy. if amare is not healthy we have seen what diaw can do inside the perimeter. he wouldnt have had that opportunity with the hawks.

i contend the suns blew it because they could have possibly signed jj and had diaw shortly thereafter for a draft pick because the hawks had no use for him. if they had the suns might have been able to have won out with jj on their side last year as depth hurt them against dallas and with some injuries. to me jj is wade jr. said it early last year and still take credit for it. btw lascho thanks for the plug to the indiana paper, great line about tommy john surgery because of patting self on the back but if jj rises to where i think he can i will be hurting for an operation. as an aside lascho i thought it was your work since you are the english major.

mountain jim i was in the alex for the early hawks with the atlanta kid white who could jump through the ceiling and the pistol putting on a show. was there one night when it was 70 degrees going in and one of those classic snowfalls within hours of leaving trapped me north of atlanta in short sleeves after taking home my date north of the chatahoochee river beyond sandy springs.

also, mj know your pain about the hawks but i am proud that sekou has finally given credence to several of us that have been arguing a lot of the decislions have been made to only handicap billy and give him no leverage at all to make significant deals. leave sekou alone for more info and only praise him for standing up for this one. i only wish the enlightenment had come earlier before so many got set in their i am right attitudes.

nice blog guys. keep it up.

feel pretty good about this one as it confirms two of my most argued points the past year:

no.1; astro joe rule number one, follow the money, that is the limiting factor for billy right now. the lawyers and the accountants are running the team. mj accept it.

no. 2; it wasnt the slam dunk that people thought it was that the suns were going to give up jj without a fight. as far as the money isssue for the suns and they wouldnt have gone over cap, i think they have already put themselves in the position they would have been in if they had signed jj for this year, over the cap once they brought on board diaw.

By michael m.

August 16, 2006 05:39 PM | Link to this

just to clarify regarding the luxury tax, these exceptions DO still count against the cap and luxury tax (the threshhold of which is usually about $10 mill or so above the cap, and is the point at which teams must match dollar for dollar for whatever they go over this number) but it allows a team to go further over the cap if they have no additional room. that is why, as astro stated, the jeffries contract will actually cost them $60 mill instead of $30 mill. jeffries only receives the $30 mill, with the rest going to the league fund. that extra $30 mill is their luxury tax penalty on just that one contract. most teams are willing to go over the cap, but very few teams are willing to go over the luxury tax number. the knicks are far and away the greatest example.

the exceptions just allow capped out teams to take on additional players and salary.

indiana was not going to get a trade exception when they were going to lose peja outright. they convinced new orleans to make it a sign and trade so that they could generate the trade exception, with the idea of pursuing harrington. that was smart on their part. it cost them $250,000 which they paid to the new orleans in order to convince them. something, anything, had to go back to indiana to make it work so a second round pick from a few years ago who plays in europe and is never going to be in the nba was added to the trade. i believe his name was betts. and he will just be waived by indiana. anyway, hope that helps.

By michael m.

August 16, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

to doc and all the others thinking phx might have matched, i agree with you; because we did not call their bluff, we will never know for sure. i believe they would have matched and then traded either him or marion because sarver was not going to pay a luxury tax. i just don’t think they would have let him go for nothing. bk did get played, however, by agreeing to give up so much. colangelo outfoxed him. one of bk’s weaknesses is once he falls in love, he loses all objectivity. how else can you justify his commitment to shelden so early in the process? i think diaw and one of the firsts would have got it done. at the very least, they received more than their initial request of 2 #1’s. that’s not good by anyone’s standard.

By The Flash

August 16, 2006 06:15 PM | Link to this

Astroman, anyway you slice it, BK’s in the bag on that JJ thing; my guess is that Ando’s take is pretty close to spot on, with a little extra. I think that Billy got way too taken with the JJ prospect, knew he was getting jobbed by Colangelo, but, when the other owners weighed in saying it’s too costly to call Colangelo’s bluff, BK went along with them because hey, he wanted “to be on the side’s that winning.” Then, adding insult to injury, he played the lead in making Belkin the badguy.

I’ve maintained all along that Gearon counted on Stern’s support because Colangelo was behind it. He bought Colangelo by overpaying for JJ; Colangelo got Stern on board to make the deal go through; BK, who ain’t no dummy, understood where the power lied (with Colangelo) and compromised his integrity, just a little (yeah right, and I’m just a little overweight).

So, BK became a full partner in this little charade, and placed himself, his reputation, behind it. Anyway you slice it, by doing so he greatly compromised his ability to manage, and fatally compromised any hope that he might lead. As somebody here pointed out, character matters. By that take, BK don’t!

Hello, I’m BACK!!!!

By A Thinking Fan

August 16, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

Welcome back DOC & FLASH, we’ve been missing you guys, but you both know how to come back with a BANG!

By Astro Joe

August 16, 2006 07:55 PM | Link to this

The boys are back in town. Welcome back Doctor and Flash. When you guys disappear and then reappear at the same time, it will make us conspiracy theorists start wondering if you all are doing a Peter Parker/Spiderman bit. Anyway, nice to have you gentlemen back on board. We have some newer guys who are bringing the noise and the funk, so make sure that you come strong ‘cause the ole blog is only getting better.

Flash, has the DC crowd been sufficiently assured that Arenas is okay? And I am trying REAL hard to leave JJ/Diaw alone. At least for the rest of the week.

By lacsho

August 16, 2006 08:18 PM | Link to this

Thanx Abe and A thinking Fan

Docand Flash welcome Back.

By A Thinking Fan

August 16, 2006 08:40 PM | Link to this

AJ You’re not implying that Doc & Flash are the Blues Brothas, (I mean Bruise Brothas) are you? LOL!

By Ken Strickland

August 16, 2006 08:44 PM | Link to this

Well, Doc finally comes back, but with a vengence. I’ve been following every post, but I couldn’t respond because of a faulty server. The task of being a GM, in any sport, is a multi-faceted one. I think we are all aware of that fact, but some of us lose sight of it. There has never been a GM that was so talented that he mastered all of the jobs requirements with equal aplumb. Any of us, if we choose to do so, can bash or criticize any GM if we focus exclusively on his weaknesses. Actually, that’s what good GM’s do to each other. Some approach the job as you would a game of poker, and take a win/lose gamble in most situations. BK seems to be more focused on getting what he wants, with minimal risk, win/win. Few can deny his exceptional ability to recognize athletic and mental. When he sees, or decides what he wants, public opinion be damned. That doesn’t make him, or anyone else, stupid or incompentent. It just means that individual is focused and intent on getting what he want and can afford. HONEST-ABE, you weren’t the only fan of Boris. He was drafted as a big PG to allow Terry to be moved to play the 2. Boris’ ballhandling was shakey in the open court, and he wouldn’t shoot or penetrate and dish. I felt he would have been outstanding as a point forward, ala Pippen, or Paul Pressey, the original PTF. OH HELL YEAH, I AM OLD SCHOOL.

By ray

August 16, 2006 08:46 PM | Link to this

Lascho, this is why I apologized, and I should have been more specific in my apology. Most of what I said was irritated sarcasm, hence the ridiculous generalization. To me it seemed like you were partitioning off the world into two groups of people: the intellectual and the non-intellectual. To me, it’s not that cut and dry. That’s when I went off on a tangent. My point was that in my opinion, intellect is part of a person, part of what makes them who they are. I simply don’t use the term to describe a person. I don’t call anyone an “Intellectual”. I tend to describe people as having good/great intellect. Not all people who possess good intellect are problem solving types. Not all problem solving types are considered intellectuals. So if you are lumping people into one of two groups, then you are suggesting inferiority by definition of “non-intellectual.” So who reserves the right to judge what person is which? And by what criteria do you judge who can be labeled as an intellectual? I understand the points you made in the last post to me. Fact is, I mis-interpreted your statements and made several statements that were sarcastic (some of which were just plain wrong, I know) and offensive. As far as stereotypes, I fit so many and am forced to deal with them on a daily basis that I can’t keep track of them all and don’t care. I think everybody has that problem in some way, shape or form, believe me I’m not whining or seeking attention. If I’ve been characterized in any particular way, so be it, too late to be worried about that. Besides, this is a blog. Your comments on the police force as a whole are what I’ve come to expect. I can’t be worried about what you or anybody else thinks. I recognize sarcasm though and it’s okay with me. I’ve heard worse…LOL! I am not an abuser of authority and prefer to give people a way out of their own problems if possible. Give me a break, you’re out of my jurisdiction (probably) and I don’t chase non-criminals. You can also junk that “ultimate blogger” statement. I wouldn’t say I was the smartest person here about anything, nor am I known for tooting my own horn. And nobody has to listen to me. So, again, I apologize. And that goes for anybody else that I offended. I realize you can choose to accept, not accept, or ignore me.

Ando, none of that was directed at you. So in a way, I’m amazed at how you managed to turn your comments on it into something about you. Heh, maybe I shouldn’t be. If you read the first part of the post, you’ll probably get a better understanding of what I was saying. The problem is, I botched the whole thing and ended up sounding like a retarded version of an elitist. Andy, if I recall correctly, I’ve only given you compliments on your verbage and analysis. If others view you as an intellectual, good for you. I don’t. I view you as someone with good intellectual capability. My view is different from that of others. Consider the fact that I am only judging by your posts, because I know you about as much as you know me: not at all. Read my post again and see that I never said so-called intellectuals can’t solve problems, but rather that they don’t. While admitting this is wrong, what I was thinking and should have really said is that intellectuals as defined by some people, tend to be thinkers and not doers, in my limited experience. Instead, what came out was not-so-glittery generalizations laced with sarcasm. And to put it more accurately Irritated Ray is not as effective a communicator as Laid Back Ray. That’s why I seemed out of my range, as you put it, although not knowing me means you cannot define what my range is and isn’t. As for telling everyone how the world goes around, how could I possibly aspire to do that when YOU have taken the job already? Hmmmm? I don’t particularly like the soap box, that’s your spot. I won’t argue with you about your ability to match skills with the most clever of minds. I wouldn’t know who those people might be, and likely that would be up for debate as it is. I suppose you know who they are and have bested them in a battle of wits or something, right? Heh, heh… I have to hand it to you brother, that’s the most egotistical statement you’ve made yet (in my opinion) and you’ve been tooting your horn for a while now.

By ray

August 16, 2006 08:53 PM | Link to this

Astro, I can’t believe I forgot about Buck Williams! He was one tough mother…But how’s this for another post enforcer: Rick Mahorn. Not an offensive genius, but knew lots of tricks and proved tough to the end.

Reese, I know we still have good solid fundamental players and many more with the physical talent to wow you every night. I just miss some of the old team concepts and the dedication and perfect execution of certain plays, like the screen and roll (pick and roll, whatever). Today’s game is plenty exciting for me too. I just recognize the changes.

By ray

August 16, 2006 09:15 PM | Link to this

Michael M. , you 5:24 post was so tight. Opened my eyes to a couple of things, too.

Doc, good to see you’re still here.

I, for one am not throwing Shelden to the wolves when I talk about tough post guys of the past. Shelden will get his chance to shine or stink. But from a fantastical standpoint, I wouldn’t mind having a player right now that was a savvy, tough veteran. An intimidator. We don’t and probably won’t have anything like we’ve been talking about this year. And I’m okay with that, because droning on about it won’t change anything. I also see that some people are talking about Solomon. It would be absolutely fantastic if he developed into the inside presence we need. Especially if it happened within a couple of years. However, that’s based on his learning curve and therefore is probably not a realistic expectation at all. Then again, we could have something really good on our hands withing 2 or 3 years. We’ll see.

By lacsho

August 16, 2006 09:30 PM | Link to this

Ray its all good man. Hell, who hasn’t blown a stack at some time or another. I understand, and I have friends from the military who are police officers. Every profession has there good and bad seeds. You keep doing your thing, because we need more good,especially in Law Enforcement.

Ken I think BK gets bashed b/c he has no interaction with the fans. Know one knows what the hell is going on, and the only thing we can do is speculate. I agree with Mountain Jim can someone please get us some answers? Perhaps we wouldn’t be chopping each others heads off, if the Hawks organization would let someone know what’s really going on with the trade and salary cap situation. I know many have said in the past that’s wishful thinking, but I think we really have a right to know. If I’m not mistaken we are potential investers in this franchise. Lastly, if a restriction has been place on the salary cap, that kills a lot of arguing on this blog.

Peace!!!!!

By michael m.

August 16, 2006 09:36 PM | Link to this

thanks ray, i appreciate it.

By ray

August 16, 2006 10:06 PM | Link to this

Lascho, thanks for accepting. Soldiers are always tops in my book, though. Without you, there is no place for myself and others to try and maintain the peace.

You and Mountain Jim are right to expect more explanation. Hey, Sekou himself said that this blog carries more weight than some of us (myself included) originally believed. So let’s see some of that in action, right? At the same time, I appreciate the info Sekou brings. But we DO need more, and we deserve more. To heck with wishful thinking. But as usual, either you get one sentence out of BK or the typical “could not be reached for comment.” Man, sometimes I wish I could use that line. It wouldn’t be so irritating if his moves were more clearly defined through other mediums. It doesn’t have to be him coming to the blog and telling the whole plan, geez. And besides…Ha!…even if he did do just that, none of us would believe it. We’d accuse a normal blogger of some kind of literary crime or something..LOL!!!

By ray

August 16, 2006 10:24 PM | Link to this

I hate to sort of detract from Marvin’s summer league triumph, but I hope that he is ready to fall down harder than he did when going up against guys like Araujo. In regular NBA games, he will be coming up against guys who are stronger and have more savvy. Guys who will figure out what it takes to get him off his game, away from his comfort zone. And not get called for the foul, either. Not just brutes who will throw an elbow here and there. If he is mentally prepared for this, he’ll do well, although I don’t expect anything near 20ppg. If not, it’s going to be a bumpy road. Hopefully Woody will or has already sat him down and talked to him about this. But then, this is also a part that Wright can play…assuming we can ever get him signed. Wright can give some tips to Marvin, as well as some encouragement. What’s important is to not get so out of whack that your mentally driven aggression suffers, thereby causing your production to slip, sometimes drastically. If this happens, and I hope it does not, expect to see Childress pick up some serious slack. I don’t think he has much trouble at all being aggressive. I think Wright can serve in a teaching/advising capacity as an added advantage to him being here. But, as somebody else mentioned a while back, it wouldn’t hurt to hire a retired former big to mentor/tutor our guys.

Why do some people think of Speedy as a scorer in a point guard’s body? I mean, he can score, but he’s not that good of a shooter. I think he can do well in a role that is clearly defined as ball-distributor/penetrator. Nothing wrong with him scoring, but here he won’t have to as consistently or as much. Not with JJ in the backcourt with him. Or even Salim. Although that would be a small backcourt…might work as a mismatch at the right moment. I still think mismatches will help us a lot if properly recognized and exploited by Woody. As far as the half-court game, that calls for more intelligent play. You have to know how to effectively run various screen plays and/or break a zone. That may be a weakness for us at times, but we DO have the tools to get the job done. It’s a matter of execution, though.

By Ken Strickland

August 16, 2006 10:38 PM | Link to this

LACSHO, the last time BK revealed his intentions, selecting Shelden at #5, fans and sports writers jumped all over him. Now why would he repeat the same mistake, especially now that there are obvious legal implications. Also, why would the Spirit, or any owners, reveal to the fans their operating procedures and/or limitations. That would surely put them at a competitive disadvantage with other owners and GMs. Being fans doesn’t give us any more of a right to know the intricate day to day details of a franchises operation any more than a next door neighbor thinking he should know your business just because he lives next door and/or is married to your cousin. Don’t worry about not knowing what is going on behind the scenes, because we will eventually know as soon as it happens.

By Kappy

August 16, 2006 10:58 PM | Link to this

I agree, Im losing respect for Chad Ford. He thinks Speedy is an offensive point guard? please. and he thinks the hawks cant replace Al’s scoring? wrong again. marvin and Jsmoove’s offensive output will be more than enough to replace AL.

I watched the majority of our games last year, and i can honestly say Al Harrington is more or less useless. He can score at an above average rate, but thats it. He doesnt make teammates better, cant rebound, and definetly cant play defense. I understand Sekou’s respect for his services, but lets be real. This team wont miss him one bit. He’s a poor man’s bonzi wells, and i think bonzi is a better scorer than him. Very overrated in my book. The fact that NBA folks think he is the 2nd best free agent this year shows you how weak this crop of free agents is.

Im not trying to be mean or cruel, but good riddance Al.

By ray

August 16, 2006 11:10 PM | Link to this

Ken, I mildly disagree with you. The difference between a next door neighbor and a fan is the fan that pays for a ticket or anything else having to do with the team is helping to fund the organization. Without such fans, the organization doesn’t exist (unless of course you think some rich businessman owner is going to give away salaries and tickets for free, hee hee…right). Meanwhile, the next door neighbor isn’t paying any of your bills. Of course nothing you do that doesn’t directly affect him is any of his business. So to me, that analogy isn’t quite fitting the argument. All I am asking for is more info than we’ve been getting, not the absolute most nitpicky intricate details of daily business. I know there is a time and place for getting the info we crave. But I desire a little more and a little more readily. I have faith, but my eyes do see.

By Jambazy

August 17, 2006 12:34 AM | Link to this

Is there any particular reason why we have to wait for the S/T of AL to be completed before we can sign Wright? We are well below the Cap aren’t we?

By HB Ando

August 17, 2006 12:37 AM | Link to this

Ray, if you can’t step back and acknowledge that our takes were from one soap box to another, what can I say? I would be disengenious to deny the length and breadth of my ego. But I’d also say that you’ll likely not find many people who are as comfortable as I am taking grief from others and being self-deprecating. I don’t find those two seemingly opposing traits incongruous because I don’t care much for absolute truths. I can lock into a theme or diatribe, complete and post it, re-read it to be sure I spoke the gospel according to HB, then read a response from you, Joe, Doc, or any number of folks, and laugh at the holes I left in my perspective, upon closer examination. I’ve always been a firm believer in going for the jugular when it comes to making a point. It’s a life-long trait. My mother used to point out to me that frequently, as a child, I would know exactly how to take the easy way out of a situation, but would stubbornly bang my head against a stone column when the free pass of walking around either side of it was readily obvious to me. As an officer of the law, I imagine that you frequently run across people who know better, and who aren’t patently bad folks, who just seem to make things harder on them selves than they need to.

I’ve analyzed myself into a corner on my opinion on Billy Knight. I think everyone here knows it. It’s not that I can’t think outside the box of this long-stranding opinion. I’m just firmly committed to an agenda that sees different leadership take this team to the next level. Doesn’t mean that I won’t take pleasure in seeing this team show subtle improvements this year, both with the individuals, as well as the squad as a whole. And I hope people here have the good sense not to confuse positive comments that are certain to come from me, for waivering on my big-picture concerns about the leadership over the long haul. I consistently avoided berating the players on this team last season, stating that they were only capable of being as good as the balance of their roster allowed for. I’ve been predicting struggles for Shelden, but only in the context of his draft slot, which he isn’t responsible for. We’ll see, we’ll see, and we’ll see.

By Ken Strickland

August 17, 2006 12:59 AM | Link to this

RAY, your point is well taken. It was a bit of a stretch. The actual point I was trying to make is that we sometimes mistake a privledge for a right. Buying a cart full of groceries at Krogers pays their rent and salaries as well, but it doesn’t give you access to their business. This analogy is a little better, don’t you think. Also, Marvin won’t have to duplicate his Summer league play to be effective. During the regular season he won’t have to be the top scorer or carry the OFF load like he did this summer. KAPPY, so many of these writers don’t research their info. Ford is obviously rendering his opinion based on the production of Marvin and JSmith, AL’s most likely replacements, from last yr. Having last yrs experience and an off season of hard work, improving their skills, doesn’t figure into his accessment. I believe the team will either duplicate or exceed last yrs scoring average, which, in the long term, is more improtant than replacing an individuals scoring average.

By newkid

August 17, 2006 08:28 AM | Link to this

Ray, how cool would it be to see our Shelden Williams develop into a Maurice Lucas type PF(Bill Walton’s enforcer with the Blazers in the late ’70s)? Wishful thinking? Perhaps.

And to counter Chad Ford’s perspective on our Hawks, here’s an excerpt from a post on hawksquawk last night:

Living the Fantasy: 10 Things for 2006-07

By NBA TV’s Rick Kamla

When I got the email about a mock draft for NBA.com’s fantasy magazine (second season), I knew it was time to start thinking about fantasy hoops again.

If you’re like me, you drift farther and farther away from fantasy hoops as the playoffs move toward The Finals, and then I’m ready for a break from the exquisite fantasy grind. Yeah, you follow the draft and free agency and NBA news on a nearly daily basis, all the while keeping a rough fantasy score in your head, but it’s a lot more laid back than the regular season. And when it’s 85 and sunny and the kids wanna go to the beach, that’s quite all right.

Then July turns to August and you start wondering who the No. 1 overall pick should be? Who’s the top forward? Where do I rank the rookies? Is Dirk Nowitzki still center eligible?

Whose summer of aches and pains will morph into a regular season replete with DNPs? Through the process of both asking and answering these questions, and dozens more, I was able to pick out 10 things I can’t wait to see in 06-07.

1. The Hawks flying high with a real point guard

Close your eyes and imagine Speedy Claxton running the break with Josh Smith on one wing and Marvin Williams on the other. Think of all the dimes Claxton will generate simply by passing the rock to Joe Johnson. If Josh Smith finally puts two halves together, Speedy stays healthy, and Marvin lives up to being the second overall pick, the Hawks could sneak into the playoffs. Yes, I’m serious.

By Wink from Lithonia

August 17, 2006 09:23 AM | Link to this

Al Harrington as it relates to the Hawks of 2006 -2007 is a non factor. When he leaves has no effect on the team we will see on the floor for the next season. Our management does not want any players in exchange, they only want cap room, for the fanasy they have created for themselves of landing the missing piece. History tells us they will never get that piece regardless how much cash they have.

There is only one team that could give Al the kind of money he wants and that is Indiana. Whether he goes or not why should we care, so let stop with the “deal not done yet” articles.

Sure Al want less money, then he might not take the Indiana deal, and he will leave and we get nothing for him ie Ben Wallace.

The team we have now, is the team we will have, while the Hawks sit on top of all that money they saved for Belkin to use!!!!

By Astro Joe

August 17, 2006 10:47 AM | Link to this

Jambazy, technically, Al is still the “property” of the Atlanta Hawks. So I am guessing that there is a salary number tied to him even though he doesn’t have a contract. As such, we probably need to trade him to free up that surrogate cap space that he occupies. I think that if you include Al, we also have 15 players signed to a contract (that include Grundy). So we probably don’t even have a roster spot for Wright either. Someone, please correct me if I am wrong about either the cap thing or the full roster issue.

By mountain_jim

August 17, 2006 10:55 AM | Link to this

You are write Astro as there is a ‘Cap Hold’ on Al until we S&T or renounce him.

I forget exactly, but it’s a large number, something like 8 or 9 million.

By Lacsho

August 17, 2006 11:06 AM | Link to this

Astro I don’t think its the roster spot, because we no longer have Donta Smith; I really hate that we lost that guy.

I’m thinking if the deals falls through with Indy, BK is keeping his options open,in case we do a S&T with another team, whom has a serviceable big man for the low. I know the timberwolves are pursing Wright, in case the deals falls through with Atlanta.

Just my thoughts, again who really knows?

By Lacsho

August 17, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Astro I don’t think its the roster spot, because we no longer have Donta Smith; I really hate that we lost that guy.

I’m thinking if the deals falls through with Indy, BK is keeping his options open,in case we do a S&T with another team, whom has a serviceable big man for the low. I know the timberwolves are pursing Wright, in case the deals falls through with Atlanta.

Just my thoughts, again who really knows?

By Basketball Princess

August 17, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

Ok, although I have been cheating on you guys over on another forum where I am able to ruffle some feathers (it’s been quite entertaining) but it seems to be the same talk every where.

I would be funny if BK did actually look on this blog, and the whole reason for the hold up is that he’s going back and forth between Ando’s opinions, Astro’s opinions, Doc’s etc….

     *A minute in BK's office*

BK: “Ok, lil brother, I hired you to be my scout, and be one of my advisors, so what are the fans saying I should do. Eh, as a matter of fact, get on that blog thing, you know, the AJC. But sign in under your name, I don’t want then knowing that I care.”

Lil Brother: “Well, I think you should….).(Bk cuts him off)

BK: “What did I say? I didn’t ask for your opinion.”

Lil Brother: “But, that’s what an advisor supposed to….”(Bk Cuts him off again)

BK: (BK put his hand up) “Pull up Ando’s comments! Now!”

Phone rings…..

Lil Brother: “Billy Knights office………”

Pacer Exec: “What’s Billy want to do?”

Lil brother puts phone down and loudly whispers to BK, “he said what you want to do, and I haven’t read what Ando said yet. He been gone because of his birthday. I can’t remember whether if it was a 1st rounder or get a second team involved???

BK: “Man you can’t whisper. You used to do that in front of mama too” Says BK pointing at the phone

Pacer Exec: (yelling through the phone) “Who’s Ando? You done went and hired someone else Billy Boy. I’m going to Ando this deal if you don’t get on this phone….

To be continued….

No disrespect to BK or any of the Hawks staff, just a little humor to lighten things up a bit between all these entries

By the way I’m back boys. I’ve missed yall! Always remember, the grass is not greener on the other side

By A Thinking Fan

August 17, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

Wait a minute - has anyone heard from DOC & FLASH again? Are we being played again?

By A Thinking Fan

August 17, 2006 11:40 AM | Link to this

BP is it really u? We may have imposters on this blog now!!!

By honest_abe

August 17, 2006 11:44 AM | Link to this

nah i think i got a pretty good handle on everyone…i’m pretty sure that’s bp..

By A Thinking Fan

August 17, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Honest Abe If you think we are not honestly being played. Honestly, I will go with u on your honest assessment - Honestly! ;-)

By The Flash

August 17, 2006 01:27 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the welcome back, guys, LOL.

I’ve been working hard, and tomorrow start that training I mentioned so I have to be brief and will be pretty busy for a while longer.

Astro, my take, Arenas ain’t injured. He was cut. Who cares what they say; they could show me the X-rays, I still wouldn’t believe it. Some lawyer, huh? (watch it, thinking man, and you too, doc).

Arenas just cannot get the ball inside to the bigs and play his game at the same time. He is a terrific competitor and plays with teammates on the perimeter terrifically. His offensive one-on-one skills put him in a class by himself, AI included, if you ask me. But, he cannot contribute to the inside-out game. I think that all the other guards so kill him on that account, and that coach k found himself, like others before him, to be unable to make sufficient progress with Arenas so Arenas had to go. Anyway, that’s my take, and, as always, I’m sticking to it.

BTW, had noticed a lot of new names and some serious play going on. We’ll see how they hold up under pressure; I’m betting on the vets. Later.

By Brick Shooter

August 17, 2006 01:45 PM | Link to this

Billy Knight is an idiot. He paid dearly for Joe Johnson and now he is going to give up Al Harrington for at best half of what he paid for JJ. Who’s willing to bet that in the end BK won’t get one first round draft choice for Al?

By mountain_jim

August 17, 2006 02:15 PM | Link to this

Hey Brick Shooter, if you had been paying attention to all the posts above, and to Sekou’s hints, you might reasonably be expected to cut BK some slack as far as what he can get for Al now because unpublicized ownership restrictions on payroll are likely preventing him from making any decent deals..

But if you are arguing that BK should have traded him last year, and is an idiot for not doing that, then you have a better case.

Concerning JJ deal, if you are arguing he is an idiot for that deal, then you have plenty of company in feeling that way.

I myself feel that if he had done the JJ for Diaw and the earlier pick, not the 2007, then it would have been a great trade, rather than an overpayment trade.

By honest_abe

August 17, 2006 02:41 PM | Link to this

atf: LOL

By A Thinking Fan

August 17, 2006 03:39 PM | Link to this

As you all can tell, I am a little bored. When is that trade taking place? LOL!

By A Thinking Fan

August 17, 2006 03:41 PM | Link to this

Hey Flash No sleeping in the training class…

We’ll hold you a seat until then.

By Basketball Princess

August 17, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

Yeah, it was me

By michael m.

August 17, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

brick shooter, i will take that bet. we are not trading al for a second round pick and we are not exchanging him for a player. what are the stakes?

By Dan

August 17, 2006 05:36 PM | Link to this

Here is hoping the HAWKS stink it up for 1 more year and we are able to have the best chance to get draft Greg Oden. Then sign Jamaal Magloire / Mike Bibby / Rashard Lewis and Antwan Jamison with all that money

By honest abe

August 17, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

some people and their crazy theories….at least its entertaining…heh

By lacsho

August 17, 2006 07:08 PM | Link to this

Something New Hope someone responds, I just feel its time for a change, and since everyone, at least most of us are Hawksfans. I pose this question. What’s your favorite Hawks moment? For example, one of my favorites was Birdand Wilkins matching shot for shot. NOw that was a great moment in Hawks sports…

Don’t leave me hanging yall!!!!!

By ray

August 17, 2006 07:10 PM | Link to this

Ando, fair enough. I can acknowledge that. This is a difference of opinion I really don’t care to pursue further anyhow because my personal logic isn’t truth, let alone absolute truth. And it would be folly to expect you or anyone else to accept it as such. I’ll agree that you must be willing to take some grief, ‘cause you keep stirring the pot, LOL! I call that conviction. I know what you mean about your methods when it comes to making a point. I’m kind of opposite, preferring to try and make the point (also trying to understand the person and where their view is coming from), then let the person run headlong into the wall if they truly wish to. Then give ‘em CPR. Well, not in every case. Sometimes you really have to save people from themselves. Fact is, I’m a far more communicator face to face, by phone, etc than I am on any computer. Besides…heh, heh, heh…it’s much easier to read someone when you can see them and watch for all the little signs…now that I’m good at. Still learning, though, you never stop learning.

By G-Money

August 17, 2006 07:28 PM | Link to this

My favorite Hawks moment was watching Nique actually win the slam dunk contest even though they gave it to MJ. We all know he wuz robbed!!!

By ray

August 17, 2006 07:32 PM | Link to this

Newkid, that’s a wish for right now. However, I’d be happy if Shelden or Solomon developed into a Maurice Lucas type. Shelden may be more NBA ready, but there’s no telling what Solomon will be capable of. Here’s to hoping he gets some real good NBDL burn.

Flash, we agree on Arenas. I figured he’d be one to get cut, although in the post I wrote it was him vs. JJ or Hincrich. I’m sure some will disagree, but I think that’s also what hurts Washington at times, even though he usually is carrying the team. Arenas is the true definition of a scoring guard in a pg’s body. And as good as he is, he does indeed seem one-dimensional compared to some of his now-former USA teammates. But I don’t know if his injury is a fake. Rather, I’d guess it isn’t that serious. As far as Bruce Bowen being cut, well…I think that had to do with the fact that just about all of the players, particularly on the perimeter, are playing effective enough defense that he was not able to distinguish himself as the perimeter stopper he was brought in to be. I mean, did you see how Chris Paul was getting after the opposing pg, especially against Lithuania? Wow. Same for DWade and others. They weren’t even letting those guys dribble at times. If Lithuania didn’t get the ball into pass play within a matter of seconds (usually to one of their mid-range shooting bigs) it was just over. Automatic turnover. And just forget trying to catch our guys on the break. They’ll either run past you, around you, or jump over you. These guys have gone above what the two previous teams have done defensively. I wouldn’t call Arenas a non-team player, but I didn’t know how well he’d fit on the team. I seem to remember former NBA player Eddie Johnson writing an article or something saying that we’d struggle due to a lack of perimeter shooters and what not. Well, I think he amongst others did not count on the defensive effort that would be put forth or how the players would respond to Coach K. Heck, neither was I to be absolutely honest. Of course, it’s not nearly over yet, but things do look pretty good so far. I’m proud of our guys.

By michael m.

August 17, 2006 07:33 PM | Link to this

lacsho, i would have to agree the wilkins-bird shootout was probably the most thrilling hawks moment. we should have won that series.

By A Thinking Fan

August 17, 2006 08:16 PM | Link to this

W/B SHOOTOUT!!!

By lacsho

August 17, 2006 08:18 PM | Link to this

Good looking out M&M Do you remember Tree and Ainge fighting, I think Ainge bit Tree in the hand..Talking about Georgia Championship Wrestling….lol G$ I think Nique was robbed when Spud won the contest.

By Ken Strickland

August 17, 2006 09:02 PM | Link to this

FLASH, RAY, I think losing Larry Hughes has put a lot of extra pressure on Arenas to score more. The Wizards aren’t known for playing much DEF, so they have to out score their opponents to win. Their BIGs aren’t very good scorers, especially on the inside. I read that Arenas’ injury created a shortage of PGs, which is why Bowen was cut instead of Henrich. What this National Team has accomplished, so far, is a testament to the sheer greatness of coach K. His ability to get NBA superstars and stars to display the performance and attitude of a college team is priceless. LACSHO, not only was that the most exciting moment, it was the defining monent of the franchise. We haven’t approached that level of intensity and excitement in a game or series since. The next most exciting moment came when Spud Webb won the slam dunk contest. I’m not sure what to expect from SJones. If Woody decides to keep Ivey, either Batista or Jones will not make the roster. SJones definitely has more talent and potential than Batista, and I think he’d be very valuable defensively in close games. We used JSmith that way his rookie yr. This yrs team will be bigger, stronger, quicker, faster, deeper and much more experienced than last yrs team. The overall improvement in individual and team talent should translate into at least 13-14 more wins. GO HAWKS!!!!

By ray

August 17, 2006 09:32 PM | Link to this

Yeah, it probably has, Ken. But Arenas still has Caron Butler and Antawn Jamison. Instead of scoring more, maybe he can get Butler involved more. Less pressure that way. Jamison is good for about 20 a night if given the chance, I think. But as far as USA basketball, I would have kept Hinrich anyway. I still think Bowen was brought in primarily, if not exclusively as a perimeter defender. But as it turns out, the other guys have stepped up their defensive game under Kryzewski. And Bowen was never really an offensive force, although he can hit the open three here and there. Not so with the explosive Melo or Lebron. Even Battier is more adept offensively, and I think he’s just about as good a defender as Bowen. And bigger, which means he can defend some of the pf types. But, that’s just my take on it. As I said before, Arenas is a huge talent. I like Hinrich’s shooting, ball handling, ball-hawking…okay I just like Hinrich. He does it all well and plays team ball so well.

By lacsho

August 17, 2006 09:48 PM | Link to this

Just looked it up on NBA.com Bird vs Wilkins battle was listed in the top ten greatest duels in NBA history. Ken your right that was the defining point. I thought the lost of Donta Smith freed a roster spot. One thing about Batista though he never backed down from nobody, but on the potential stand point there not even close; S Jones has tons of potential.Every team need a Batista though, he might not score (lol), but he’ll give you six hard fouls….

I hear you ATF

By ray

August 17, 2006 10:57 PM | Link to this

Six really hard fouls. Hit you so hard you’ll curse in his language.

By doc

August 17, 2006 11:00 PM | Link to this

pistol pete or spud bringing it up the court, everytime and anytime.

the bells backing in on someone.

john drew gliding theough the lane.

walt hazzard driving the lane to dish.

super sweet lou gunning those soft floaters into the basket, seem to wonder what his legacy would have been if the three point line had been in existence then.

most stirring thing as a team was the bird nique shootout. sad we lost that one.

a lot of almosts in this franchise.

now onto the present.

see speedy as the aquisition that like zaza will go down as a steal. he will avg. 7 dimes a game this year and avg 35 mpg.

josh is going to grow even more and be a hammer inside and outside. as he grows and finds how much fun he can have soldiering it inside he will be j smash not the whimppy j smoove.

marvin will give us glimpses of the chris bosh type player he can be.

zaza will be more productive with fewer minutes. with someone to sub him in he will play more agressively on defense surprising folks not worrying about fouls.

jj is going to take his game into the stratosphere.

lorenzen will be a player to work hard and do the dirty work.

chills will get some recognition for being a stalwart 6th man.

the team will push at 40 wins but probably stay just south of that at 38.

further into the future belkin is going to be having second thoughts about the damage he has done to the organization by trying to be the organization by exercising his veto power as govenor even though he only represented 30% of the working capital. in the end he will realize as an entrepreneur he cant work within a group and that was his downfall but he will get investors only. he will probably get a gm that wont keep him out of the way so the franchise will suffer until he lets the bball person run it. so he will then have to get a strong gm to make up for the weak one he hired.

with all the positives happening billy gets fired as the spirit vaporizes into just that, a spirit. clyde now gets his revenge and has great joy until he recognizes that the team he had fallen in love with is disbanded by the next guy in wanting to make his stamp. he then realizes that it will take the follow up guy three more years to make up for the damage done in two years by the first belkin hire so it is now august 2012 and we are now hoping for the lottery pick so we can get the next great 18 year old seven footer. so you guys get what you wanted.

By michael m.

August 17, 2006 11:18 PM | Link to this

we dont lose batista or jones. solomon might start out in the nbdl, but regardless, teams can have 15 players, 12 active. the other 3 are still a part of the team though. its not like it used to be where you had to pretend they were injured in order to carry additional guys.

doc, don’t you think marvin more closely resembles worthy or an early mashburn than he does bosh? marv is silky smooth, he’s got hops too. bosh is more of a big who can shoot.

By doc

August 17, 2006 11:40 PM | Link to this

mm cant argue those virtues and i know you have a discerning mind (i havent been sleeping the whole time). i was thinking more in terms of his stage in development. solid freshman years in the acc, nothing terrific the first year i the pros then beginning to step into their own power in their second year and completely fulfill promise by the third. not sure but for some reason i think it is going to be marvins mental game that surprises the most. he seems to have a will about him that will give him his own character and force others to be compared to him. i see him as more agressive than worthy and tougher than mashburn. hope he can be in as many finals as worthy was.

it is going to be interesting to see how his body develops. for example i saw tiger in the masters when he was still at stanford, just not the same little boy and he generates power in a very different way than he did, now it is shoulders then it was in his hips. point is got to let these guys develop a bit to put a handle on them. i just think both kids are special and if they can be paired with jj a few years it could be real fun for us all billy or not. sometimes we really lose sight of the forrest for the trees and forget that there are three or four guys that have a real killer instinct on this team. left out salim in earlier discussion but if he can pick up his d then he will be a real force in special situations.

By HB Ando

August 18, 2006 12:13 AM | Link to this

MM, I’ve been saying Mashburn for, oh, about a year or so. Marvin will go down as a better rebounder and defender, when it’s all said and done. But offensively, he looks a lot like a healthy Mash.

BP, not only was that the funniest and most creative post in a long time here (you’re skills are getting mad sharp), I am TRULY honored to be a character in your one-act play. I believe your scene would end like this:

BK: “quick, tell me what Ando would do so I can get this thing done”!

Lil’ Bro: “Ando’s so busy screaming for your head that he hasn’t posted a new idea in 3 months. You’re on your own, BK”.

BK: “F#$& that mother f*%$#@!. If I ever meet him in person I’m gonna whip his a$$”!!!

We should probably send doc over to BK’s office to teach him some breathing techniques. Hate for the man to pop a vein. I already said I figured he’d trade Al for a box of Animal Crackers and a t-shirt that says, “Billy Knight for King of the Universe”. BUT PLEASE don’t confuse that for a recommendation. I’d hate to read the headlines tomorrow if there’s a miscommunication here…………..

By doc

August 18, 2006 12:30 AM | Link to this

yes bp. cudos, i read through the blog earlier and didnt have time to give you some props. you need to stay where the love is baby and keep deliverin.

nice add on ando. now, i cant remember; are you really sure that he blew it on that jj thing? heh heh

i guess it is an age thing, right flash bud.

By mykhalc

August 18, 2006 12:47 AM | Link to this

BP, great skit!!LOL

ANDO, great ending!!LMAO!!!!!!!!!!! TOO FUNNY!!

By bootsybug

August 18, 2006 07:22 AM | Link to this

glenn robinson did more in a hawks uniform than did al harrington, and that’s not saying much. neither played an iota of defense, neither could block shocks or get 7 boards a game.

al did have a seemingly better attitude though, and that is important. i don’t think glenn could name 3 of his teammates.

the loss of al harrington will be addition by subtraction, i promise you.

By newkid

August 18, 2006 08:37 AM | Link to this

This train of thought may be a R-E-A-L stretch, but lemme try it and see what sort of reactions (if any) it generates. Some here believe we won’t do much better than last year’s 26 wins; others believe we’ll push 40 (include me in this latter group). Let’s suppose for a moment that the most optimistic among us understate the 06/07 win total, and our side meshes to the point of approaching 46-48 wins, goes ‘deep’ into the playoffs before finally succumbing to say Miami. Let’s say also that all signs at the end of such a successful 06/07 campaign point to an even more successful 07/08 campaign by our side. Please don’t have me committed just yet; stay with me a little longer.

Okay, here’s an array of questions. Would this sort of success, if it were to unfold in this fashion this season, result in some ‘mending’ of the fractured ownership situation, or does it increase the desires by either side to finalize the divorce? Is one happenstance preferred to the other? Why? If Belkin is the ‘victor’ in the divorce, and this group that Billy has assembled reaches the unfathomable heights I dream about above, does Belkin still insist upon sacking Billy? Or does Billy voluntarily ride his little red wagon of success out-of-town with an ‘I told you so’ sort of smirk on his face, as he is pursued by Donlan to work similar magic for the Knicks (or whoever)?

OR, do I just have too much idle time on my hand?

By doc

August 18, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this

newkid, billy ought to already have that smirk after the job done in memphis, no signficant changes to that team since the great jerry west came ot town except get a coach or two since the first one was a bit too old to handle the rigors of todays nba coach. that team just got its first tweak when shane battier was sent out this year for the top six after giving up jay williams to the heat for an over the hill scorer. significant minutes were those of billy acquisitions except jones THREE years later. id say a pretty good core left behind if no significant adjustments in that time. as a fan i think he has no personality but he has done something right occasionally and enough times where it aint the blind squirrel at work, ala the golden boys in l.a., boston and minnesota with the great pedigrees but nothing to show for it. kiki is one of the golden boys down and out after his give aways at denver. before you say it, carmelo fell in his lap.

agree that billy won have trouble getting a new job as he has kept his mouth shut to his detriment. still see the look he gave belkin was the one of “how could you betray me” rather than how many interpreted it, besides, who believes that a handshake is warranted if someone has just stuck a knife in your back.

By A Thinking Fan

August 18, 2006 09:24 AM | Link to this

Great! Good to hear from you BP

By honest_abe

August 18, 2006 09:38 AM | Link to this

hmmmmmmm my favorite hawks moment??? i’d like to say it was wilkins and bird but i never got the chance to see that live. i’ve seen it on espn classic but it’s not quite the same thing. i can’t think of one specific moment so instead my favorite period in hawks history would have to be the drafts during the 90s. those were great and exciting times. after the season, i couldn’t wait for the nba draft! a time when the hawks would bring on board the brightest and the best. stalwarts such as rumeal robinson, stacey augmon, anthony avent, adam keefe, doug edwards, alan henderson, priest lauderdale, peristeri nikas, ed gray, roshown mcleod, jason terry, cal bowdler, dion glover, jumaine jones.

wow……those were the days!

By lacsho

August 18, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

RAY Say word, if Batista’s all around game mirrored his intensity, need I say more. Newkid nice vision, but unfortunately I think Elkin and BK relationship has been severed to the point, where I don’t think they would reconcile. But who’s to say that they won’t man up and try to achieve the big picture together.

Abe you’re right I’ve watch games on the classic before, and you just don’t get the same feeling, as watching it live. I guess the major difference is, you follow your team all year long and your hopes are lingering on every shot. Then the rollercoaster ride throughout the playoffs was great. Then my heart breaks with the game 7 lost. I’ll take that feeling any day; it beats the last 8 or 9 seasons. I will say last year I started to get that feeling back in December. We lost so many close games. I kept telling my co-workers and other non-believers that it’s only a matter of time, but of course they were trying to have me committed to the psych ward. I received the criticism b/c they never watched a game; they just read about it in the paper. And we know the Hawks only have one positive beat writer. Doc great insight. Once Marvin and JSmoove bodies fully mature, it’s going to be a problem. BP very very very creative, Ando you put the icing on the cake.

By Ken Strickland

August 18, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Good morning everyone, and welcome to another episode of the NBAs #1 soap opra, AS THE HAWKS TURN. HONEST-ABE, why would you come on this blog and start something you can’t finish. You left off such stalwarts as, John Koncak, Keith Edmonson, Jack Givens, Butch Lee, Alan Henderson, and that little PG from Gonzaga, I can’t recall his name. NEWKID, I believe current mgt will either reach a compromise and continue to function as is, possibly with some modifications, or sell out completely. I don’t think either faction is financially able to assume total ownership. The makeup of the disfunctional Spirit would will make it difficult to attract new investors, and who would want to be a co-owner with Belkin after what he’s done. So, both parties will eventually have to either settle their differences and co-exist, or sell out. Either way I think BK stays. Like DOC said, it would set this franchise back, at the very least, to change GMs. Most coaches and GMs want to win on their own terms with their own teams. Gruden won the Superbowl with Tampa Bay, but everyone knows he did it with Dungy and McKay’s team. Until he wins another one, that will be his defining legacy. The same stigma will cause any new GM to eventually change the bulk of the roster, thus setting an already rebuilding team back even further. As far as your upward projection for wins is concerned, it’s not unreasonable. The East isn’t a very strong division. A lot of teams have improved themselves, mostly on paper, and most of the talent is coming from college, thus unproven. A fast start, which would bolster confidence, no key or long injuries, and positive improvement from our young players would make that goal possible. Look at how many teams that were fighting for a playoff berth last yr with a record around the 500 mark. The Hawks have one of the strongest benches in the East, and that will be our strength down the stretch.

By newkid

August 18, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Doc, for the 9 months or so that I’ve been monitoring this blog, you’ve consistently pointed out that BK was given far less applause than he deserves for his work in Memphis. Your sense that he’d be short in the unemployment line if he left the ATL is in line with what you’ve consistently written about him (not sure I disagree with you). But what of the owners and my perhaps irrational exuberance? Do they kiss and make up if it’s apparent to all as this season progresses that what stands between this side that BK has built and a date to the REALLY big dance is one more year of playing together and additional shoring at the 5 spot? Does Billy, with a huge year here, voluntarily step away and take financial (presumably) advantage of demonstrated ability to build a winner in the face of such unprecedented owner(s) controversy?

BTW Ray, I for one hope that Solomon Jones gets to develop here on the big stage rather than in the NBDL. From what I’ve seen and read this guy is a fractionally shorter and older version of one of my favorite ‘projects’ (Sene), and deserves a real chance to grow and develop with the other young guns BK has assembled. Sure he’ll get more minutes in the developmental league, but perhaps he needs quality opposition and tutoring more than he needs mere minutes. He can get some of that quality opposition in intra-squad games , and in mop up minutes on the big stage. If he were 21 rather than 24, I may view this differently.

By newkid

August 18, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Sorry Ray, I accorded S. Jones two more years of life than he has lived; he’s 22, not 24. Nonetheless I do still like him on our playing roster sooner rather than later.

By michael m.

August 18, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

doc, i get what you are saying now about marvin’s acc connection to bosh, both coming out after their freshman year and whatnot. i do think he has a chance to match that progress rate. if he does, we will all be happy.

ando, didn’t know you had ever made the mashburn comparison. very prescient on your part, and i will have to say that i agree with your assessment then. good looking out. like mash in the early days, marvin can jump through the roof, has a great shooting touch, and is oddly deft in making moves with the ball in his hands to clear space for his shot or drive when 15 to 18 feet out. he almost gallops across the lane at times. and more of his worthy side should shine through with speedy in transition this year.

with the wing talent surrounding him, speedy should find a lot of easy dimes this year if he can break down defenses. jj, marvin and josh smith are all seriously top notch talents who bring different things to the table. i see at least the occassional all star game in each of their futures. the more they play together and learn how to play off of each other, the better we will be. i think mentally, led by jj, the right mindset for success is there. only josh smith worries me in that regard, but due to the positive influence of jj and marvin’s solid kid demeanor, i am not too worried about it. smith is the kind of player that you don’t want around an ai or francis, better to surround him with positive influences that allow him to shine and reach his potential.

By michael m.

August 18, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

and doc, thanks for the kind words. much appreciated.

one other thing regarding bk in memphis. i remember during that draft there was the thought we would select battier. picking him at #3 seemed way too high, but many thought his duke drive and smarts were what the hakws needed at the time. i think he wound up going to memphis at #5. played strong defense, a good complimentary team player, solid. he never averaged more than 16 points a game, but he did a lot of things that don’t show up in the boxscore. memphis was even able to resign him after his rookie contract at a relatively fair rate, in part due to his never being thought of as a superstar. and now he is on the olympic team and just brought back rudy gay and stromile swift in trade. not bad. point being, does anyone see the potential similarities here to our current duke rookie who was selected at #5?

By newkid

August 18, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

If you guys get a chance, check out the current thread on hawksquawk regarding the ‘Breakfast w/Bernie’ radio show this morning. Maybe a sea change cooking. Here’s a post from the site:

“I heard the whole interview. Bernie’s quote was essentially that the Pacers deal is, at least for now, no more. He said it is another situation in which the GM and the owner are not on the same page (on the Pacers side). He said there are other deals out there, and in most cases, it is guys offering overpaid veterans that they’re not willing to take. He said the most desirable deal involves someone offering 3 guys, 2 of them are young and they want them, 1 a veteran that they don’t want, but will live with. The issue is that this other team doesn’t want to meet Al’s salary demands. But, if Al lowers demands or team ups willingness to take on Al’s deal, that one can work. He also said if they resigned Al and traded him later, they can’t deal him till December 15th. He wasn’t really saying that was an “option”, he referred to it when somebody asked him if they might do that.”

By Ken Strickland

August 18, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

NEWKID, I’m with you on SJones being on the active roster. However, the way our roster is constructed, he would have to replace either Ivey or Batista. Ivey provides the size and intensity needed to play the bigger PGs. Batista provides intensity and a physical presence at both the 4&5 spots. Remember, JSmith was just a slightly larger version of SJones and he was used primarily for DEF purposes. His points came mostly on high flying dunks and put backs. I see SJones as a R-handed version of JSmith with the same unlimited potential for short term growth. It’s one thing to recognize preverbial diamonds in the rough(young undeveloped talent). But it’s quite another to recognize that inward fire and desire needed to put in the hard offseason work to rapidly progress to starting status in just 1yr. That is BK’s strength and I believe that when his radar locks in on a strong signal, like JJ, he goes after it, cost be damned. Quite frankly, I enjoyed JJ’s contribution last season more that I would have enjoyed having that draft pick. Besides, if we have a good season and compete for a playoff birth, that pick wouldn’t be high enough to get us what we need anyway. Mark my words, teams are going to have to contend with 2 young, versatile, quick, fast, athletic, and aggressive high flying forwards when they play us. Add to that mix one of the quickest PGs in the league, a better than average Center, then stir all of that up with one of the 2 or 3 most versatle, all around players in the NBA. Finally, back all of that up with one of the best benches in the East and you have the potential for success, now. GO HAWKS!!!!!

By honest_abe

August 18, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

ken: dan dickau

By newkid

August 18, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

Ken, if the only reason to retain Ivey - instead of S. Jones - is his prowess at defending bigger pg’s, then wouldn’t you say that Chilz answers that need? IMO Ivey’s potential contributions this year are likely to pale when compared to the value we’ll get by ensuring that S. Jones gets quality experience on the big stage this year.

By michael m.

August 18, 2006 02:33 PM | Link to this

ken, are you comparing solomon jones to josh smith?! without venturing into the fact that josh smith has upside and skills that solomon will not ever be able to touch, jones is more a 4/5 while josh smith is a forward, plain and simple. a 3/4 really. i love your optimism but let’s keep things in perspective lest you bring out the rightful devil’s advocate in many regarding the hawks. let’s not be homers and think everyone on our team is a potential all star. if solomon puts on weight and hones his skills, he could be a solid big. but he and jsmooth/smash are not mirror versions of each other. let’s just get that straight here and now.

By Astro Joe

August 18, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

newkid, good info from the radio interview. Me thinks that sounds like Golden State may be offering O’Bryant, Pietrus and maybe Dunleavy/Foyle. I know there was a Lakers rumor, but I don’t think the Lakers have 2 young players, unless they are thinking about trading Farmar and Bynum (and Cook) for Al and Lue, which seems highly, highly, highly unlikely. I still think these owners don’t want returning players if possible. Seems strange that Bird and Walsh can’t convince the owner to sign off on this trade. Strange how they have to consult their owner about a transaction while BK was able to manage the whole JJ deal independent of his bosses. Oops, I didn’t say that. If Cato signs with someone soon, then I will start getting nervous. I figure if Lo Wright bolts to the T’Wolves, we would have Cato as a back-up plan. The longer this lasts, the more likely guys like Lo Wright will go for a sure-fire contract and not take any chances of being screwed.

By lacsho

August 18, 2006 02:49 PM | Link to this

Ken, if Salim steps his defense up, do you really think we need Ivey. He’s a good defensive player, but he’s not a real playmaker. I think the only problem we had with Salim is he could’nt guard the other teams pt guard last year. Although I’ve seen Ivey control the tempo when the game has gotten out of hand; Ivey doesn’t have the long range jumper to stretch the defense out, and keep them honest;however, we all know the mini-microwave(Salim) will take the shot, and he will keep the defense honest.
Newkid for some reason I can see JJ guarding the other teams pt guard, and see Chilz guarding the other teams two or three.That’s when they are in the game together. I think jj can defend the 1,2,and 3.

By michael m.

August 18, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

ivey and solomon play totally different spots, fill different needs. ivey may be on the inactive list some games( roster spots 13-15) and solomon as well. with solomon, the decision over whether he stays with the big club or does some nbdl time will come down to how he progresses with coaching from ballard and others as well as his development in the weight room. i think he will spend part of the year in the development league to get some run. sans injuries, he doesn’t figure to get much burn this year with the big league club. you’ve got zaza, zen, josh smith, shelden and batista. any finishing minutes in games with already decided outcomes will go to shelden and batista. that is not say shelden won’t get meaningful minutes too, but the more time on the floor for him the better. this is also leaving out the possibility that we take on additional bigs in the al sign and trade or are forced to keep edwards. remember, edwards, batista and ivey’s contracts are guaranteed. so they will be part of the 15 man squad unless they are traded.

speedy, lue, ivey, jj, childress, salim, marvin, josh smith, zaza, shelden, batista, edwards and solomon are our current guaranteed contracts. zen will be the 14th. i am doing this off the top of my head so i am leaving anyone out, please correct me. assuming edwards is gone and zen enters the picture, that is 13 right there which means one of these guys will be on the inactive list on any given night. obviously if we move away from the indiana trade and towards the lakers or someone else, the amount of guaranteed contracts only figures to increase. the number that i cannot see our management being willing to go over is 15. just remember that we don’t have to waive anyone unless we are over that number. make sense?

By michael m.

August 18, 2006 02:56 PM | Link to this

astro, i believe all that minnesota can offer lo wright is their low level exception which is only 1.7 mill. they already used the higher one on mike james and are over the cap. kind of hard not to be over when you factor in garnett’s contract. i don’t think wright will back out unless this drags on for another month or two, if then even. he likes the atl, has a home here. and i have to think bk has told him we want him regardless of who comes in, i think we are okay. though i agree i hope this gets settled one way or another in the next few weeks. i think it will.

By doc

August 18, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

newkid, my take on belkin is he is a visionary so he doesnt look back nor analyze the past but moves to the future. i would not take a bet on this group kissing and making up because they couldnt do it before the jj thing though they were asked politely by the commish more than a year before. belkin took some things as entitlement as the govenor that others took offense to, big egos with big money. it was doomed from the beginning. belkin just doesnt strike me as the guy who can sit back and work through things as a collective. just not his personality and with his success cant suggest he do otherwise. not talking your buddy down flash but think he is real hands on with his money and passions and though he works well in the boardroom of universities and charities he knows it isnt his game and can sit back and support with a few buildings named after him for posterity. doubt that is his style when it comes to his businesses. will we see in ten years the new belkin arena raised in the big a to fit the 30,000 folks he has garnered into loving his team that couldnt fit into the pitiful phillips?

dern guys this is one where it doesnt appear to be billy’s fault except he was trying to get some true value for the al man as well as get al some spending money and protect the sovereign state known as your atlanta hawks.

also aint it a kick that we are beginning to anticipate the season and talk about what we have instead of what we missed or dont have?

By newkid

August 18, 2006 03:11 PM | Link to this

Joe, I hope that among the alternatives to the Indy deal (if it flops) will be a discussion with Seattle. One would think the Sonics would have an interest in trying to team Harrington (sf) with Ray Allen (sg), Rashard Lewis (pf). If reports from Seattle are accurate, Lewis is not particularly happy there and may elect to opt out of his deal after this year. Having Harrington would potentially give the Sonics a hedge against such an occurrence.

For the last 3 years the Sonics have drafted 7-footers on the 1st round. Ideally I’d favor an effort to convince them to send us Sene and a 1st rounder in ‘07, but I’m not sure their cap situation would allow absorption of the salary difference.

By Astro Joe

August 18, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

newkid, but they just inked Wilcox to a 3 year deal. That team is truly in a bad way with Ray Allen wasting away, a bunch of young centers who may never be more than William Bedford and a new owner who doesn’t like Seattle coffee or grundge music. I’d take Petro, Collison and an expiring contract (not sure if they have any).

MM, you’re right that our offer is far superior, but it is a contingent offer. $1.7M pays more bills than the promise of $3M. But you’re right that a southern boy like Lo who has played in LA, Atlanta and Memphis would likely enjoy his winter month’s in Atlanta a little bit more than he would in Minnesota.

By michael m.

August 18, 2006 03:36 PM | Link to this

“also aint it a kick that we are beginning to anticipate the season and talk about what we have instead of what we missed or dont have?”

Exactly Doc, that’s what i have been trying to say. The glass is becoming half full.

Newkid, that would be a great trade for us. But I don’t see seattle taking on any additional salary. Wilcox and his agents had to work their butt off to get what they did. their three-headed center will team with wilcox, lewis, allen and ridnour. I also wonder if Boston might be the team Bernie was alluding to. Bynum from the lakers is the first choice, that golden state deal could be in the equation too. i bet we would take foyle and his 3 years left over dunleavy, who is owed more years and dollars. I would love to get Bynum. Still wonder if phil jackson could call Jordan and entice the bobcats to get involved as a third team since the additional players will not cost their ownership anything owing to their being below the cap minimum, and then if they were thrown a million dollars for owner bob johnson to pocket, it could be a win-win-win situation. the one remaining issue there would be that including bynum means the lakers would want to hold on to mihm (they aren’t going to want to lose two centers), and mihm’s contract is neccesary to make it work. perhaps the bobcats would send brezac back to the lakers since he is also on an expiring contract. that way they would have the expiring mihm to back up okafor and may, plus they could potentially sign the restriced ely still. or edwards could go to either team that wants him with his salary paid for out of the $3 million the lakers would give up. i am just sure what charlotte has up their sleeve. the cleanest deal is probably mihm and lakers #1 and $2 million (from lakers) to atlanta, harrington (and edwards?) to the lakers, cook and mckie (perhaps edwards here?) and $1 million to the bobcats.

with boston, it might be rondo and jefferson as the two young guys, with wally or ratliff as the vet.

astro’s golden state suggestion sounds about right if they are the team involved, though i think we would turn around and trade pietrus at some point.

By michael m.

August 18, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

astro, i doubt it is contingent on anything other than finalizing the al sign and trade. a mere formality at some point. now, if it were contingent on what we get back in the sign and trade, then we would have something to seriously worry about. but i cannot see why zen would have accepted that in the first place since it just means his options will continue to dwindle. but i agree it is an incentive for us to complete the al transaction. however, that doesn’t mean we should do something that hurts us. to be honest, i still do not really get why we have to wait on the sign and trade. al’s projected number still needs to be tied to our cap since, while he is an unrestricted free agent now, he won’t be when he officially signs with us before making the trade. but even with that projected number, signing wright might bring us over the cap by a little bit but it will not put us over the luxury tax threshold which is the number at which it costs the owners money. so i really don’t get why the holdup there. does anyone really know and is willing to explain? sekou perhaps? i would love to hear it make sense to me. anyone…?

By G Money

August 18, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

michael m et al. Why doesn’t anyone feel that solomon jones has the potential to be Theo Ratliff in his prime? They are the nearly the same size now. Perhaps Theo was a little stronger.

On another note, I’d probably go with Sekou’s option 2 if the Pacer deal falls through. I don’t see any of the other options (maybe Celtics), really benefiting us long term. I think the “potential” that we have will only be supressed if the deal goes down with LA like he lays it out. Joe Smith could offer some assistance to the development of the young talent that we have. The $3mil helps ownership, and a Nugget pick might be higher than a Pacer pick when all is said and done.

By newkid

August 18, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

As the looooooong negotiations with Indy crept painfully along over the past weeks, wouldn’t one think that we would have already agreed with appropriate GMs (and Tellem and Al) on 2nd, 3rd, and 4th options? Well, maybe we have. So let’s make the announcement already.

By Astro Joe

August 18, 2006 04:05 PM | Link to this

NEWKID, I think options 1-5 for the Spirit was probably, don’t tkae back no money! Have you ever had to walk in your boss’ office to say something you know they don’t want to hear? I’m guessing BK will give Indiana a few more days before having to tell Gearon and crew that they have to take out their wallets (at least, what’s left of their wallets). Sounds like Bernie may be warming to that idea, but it ain’t his money.

By newkid

August 18, 2006 04:29 PM | Link to this

As one who provides policy advice to decisionmakers, I’ve been there a few times Joe. You’re dead on, it does happen. Fortunately for me the rule has been that most are perceptive enough to recognize the criticality of contingency planning.

By Astro Joe

August 18, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

Being perceptive is good, but when your as broke as a joke, all bets are off.

If I could make a purely basketball move without regard for salaries, court cases and all that nonsense, give me Kendrick Perkins, Delonte West and Theo for Al and Lue. I’m dumping Theo as soon as possible for whatever. Perkins is still a questions mark but he is a restricted free agent next summer in the event we need to move him. And West is my favorite young combo guard and would be an ideal runningmate with Salim, as he is big enough to play against opposing SGs while still being a decent ball distributor. But alas, there will not likely be any basketball-related moves this summer.

By newkid

August 18, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Sounds like real concern is brewing on the Pacers’ blog. Check this out…

“This rumor is all over the Lakers and Hawks message boards over on realgm. I know rumors are a dime a dozen today, but I thought Id post it. Supposedly, it will be something like Aaron McKie, Chris Mihm, and Andrew Bynum, and may include the Lakers number one pick as well in 2007. As posted elsewhere on this board, McKie and Mihm each have expiring contracts, and Bynum is a young center with lots of potential.

If this is true (Im not saying it is), then its a very good deal for both teams, in my opinion. I think Harrington is a good fit for the triangle, and will fit nicely there as a 2nd/3rd scoring option for years to come. Obviously giving up Bynum means the Lakers are in “win now” mode….not surprising considering the dynamics of their market and their coaching staff.

For Atlanta, they will probably waive McKie, but Mihm is a nice piece in their interior, and his expiring deal might be useful in a deal near the trade deadline. Bynum is a potential steal at center for years to come, and was the lakers high draft pick a couple of years ago….young seven foot players with upside and athletic ability are hard to come by, plus they get him on his rookie contract. if the Lakers gave up a pick in the deal as well, then thats another bullet for the hawks to use as they rebuild their franchise.

Couldn’t blame the Hawks at all for taking this deal or one similar, if indeed this rumor has any basis in truth…..its what they shouldve been looking for all along. I also am wondering like I speculated in another thread if Al has decided like some others did to take a contract shorter in length, thereby sparking an interest in him by the Lakers and others.

For our collective fan base and its sanity, I hope this is just another baseless rumor started by Atlanta fans….but I’m fearful that it isnt.”

By Basketball Princess

August 18, 2006 05:02 PM | Link to this

Stay tuned for the second episode of trapped in the middle of trade talks

By roan st

August 18, 2006 05:59 PM | Link to this

According to the indy star the holdup in the deal is Al’s contract. The parameters of the deal has been agreed to between the two teams but now the pacers owner doesn’t want to give AL a 6 year 57 million dollar contract. The pacers front office are all about making the deal but the owners got cold feet about shelling out that kind of money for AL.

By Ken Strickland

August 18, 2006 06:06 PM | Link to this

I’m sorry for posting then disappearing. My online service has been on again off again the last few days. I wasn’t trying to hype Ivey, because I’d ship his A$$ out in a heartbeat in favor of SJones. Atlanta just drafted an athletic, 6’10” 220lb player with amazing jumping and shot blocking ability, but he is a bit raw. Does the above sentence describe JSmith, SJones, or both? MICHAEL MANN, my comparison between the two was from their point of entry into the draft, not now. HONEST_ABE, thanks for the help. I couldn’t think of Dickau’s name for anything. Instead of responding to the Hawks’ version of a S&T, I’ll just read and watch. There is entirely too much NOT going on for me to involve myself in any of the already abundant speculation. When this season ends, this team will have accomplished enough to make ANDO, REECE, FLASH & DALE forget about the JJ trade. NOW THAT’S ONE HELL OF A SEASON, RIGHT!!!

By roan st

August 18, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this

All of this is starting to make more sense now. Thats why AL fired his agent because Indy wasn’t giving in to his contract demands. Seems as though the pacers want to give AL a shorter deal. So has it been harrington himself holding up the deal? Looks like that could be the case.

By Patrick

August 18, 2006 06:55 PM | Link to this

Why don’t we just resign Harrington?

By Fred5653

August 18, 2006 06:55 PM | Link to this

I know I must have missed the explanation somewhere, but why don’t the Hawks simply sign AH to a 3 or 4 year deal and keep him? They should have the cap room. Then if desired they could trade him during the season to some team with an urgent need. Maybe they could get more that way. I think I understand that there are no teams who have the cap room and the need for AH so he must be in a bind too if a deal can’t be worked out in a sign and trade.

By Jim

August 18, 2006 07:01 PM | Link to this

An important point not usually mentioned here. It is not up to BK, or the Hawks, which team he gets sign and traded to. Al and agent pick a team he would be willing to sign with, under terms that team is willing to pay. Only then can we work a deal for a S & T. If Al wanted the pacers, than no amount of trade talk could land us players from another team … ie ” a better deal”. Now that Al has given up the pacer dream, BK has a chance to work some magic elsewhere. Not that I’m confident he will …

By Samuel

August 18, 2006 07:07 PM | Link to this

Cuz,

I like the synerios. You know Al(jefferson) is my boy. Aint crazy about Baker or Brian Grant but Al for Al straight up would do me fine. Jefferson being from the Motherland (Mississippi),just has never been confortable up north in all that cold. Bring him here and jumpstart his career. He and my son are real close so I would instantly be a BK lover for Life.

Actually, I think any of the deals mentioned would be great. Getting Mihm and Brian Cook would be great for the Hawks. We then would need to move somebody else though. Sheldon would catch plenty of splinters with both Mihm and Cook comming over.

But since we’re broke, we’ll probably go for Joe Smith, a pick and the “Kizash”.

By Clyde

August 18, 2006 07:18 PM | Link to this

Since the Indiana trade is dead what will we do next? I don’t see many options since Billy won’t take any players in return. Al Harrington is in a bad position.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By mountain_jim

August 18, 2006 07:38 PM | Link to this

Hey Clyde, read Sekou’s latest column with 3 options…

And Sekou - appreciated you weighin in with this info so we are getting more than just rumours and Indy’s media side of things.

The 3 options column is quite entertaining as well as informative. Good stuff.

By mountain_jim

August 18, 2006 07:42 PM | Link to this

I wish LA’s Bynum was an option, but last we heard they were willing to offer Mihm, not Bynum.

By Steve B.

August 18, 2006 07:58 PM | Link to this

Yo New Kid, the Al to the Lakers rumor as a fall back has been around for a while. But the Lakers don’t want to include Bynum, from everything I’ve heard it’s Mihm a throw in and a 1rst round pick. If BK can get an unprotected 2007 pick and get that throw in to be S.Parker, I might just pull the trigger. Reason being even in getting Al the Lakers still can’t defend and the West is still the West. The Lakers could vey well miss the play-offs with Al. How long will it take for Kobe to get p** with Al over the ball, he has to share only with Odem right now and he still breaks plays and forces the O. Mihm isn’t a starter but he will use all six of his fouls and come to play. I know I’m going to get killed for this one. Even if they force us to take Kwame Brown(he did improve down the stretch) I’d do it. The Lakers are far from A lock to make the play-offs and getting a big that will use all six fouls and a chance at Oden in the draft I’d take that chance. This is also a blessing for us we won’t have to deal with those Pacers fans stoping mocking and insulting us.

By roan st

August 18, 2006 09:30 PM | Link to this

I wish the damn pacers wouldn’t have tied this thing up for so long. However, I can’t really blame them for not wanting to give AL nearly 60 million. Personally I think he is an overrated one dimensional tweener. I think our best chance now at a deal will be with LA because they can send us a pick and expiring contracts.

By NumbaOneFan

August 19, 2006 12:04 AM | Link to this

Holy Chit Batman….. I had a feeling his was going to happen since it was taking so long to get it done. I had a rally ueasy feeling Donnie walsh would end up trying to put the wood to AH. In a way I am relieved and, anxious to see what goodies may fall in our lap with some of the ohter teams interested in acquiring AH. Someone mentioned a possibility of Kwame Brown and that scenarion intrigues me but I would like to hear what some of the other regulars think of that scenario. I think we have depth at all positions but if we can pick up a big or some depth at PG and not get shackled with a bad contract(s)I say “Get Er Done”. In this league one can never have enough depth and options… specially when you take into account injuries.

By ray

August 19, 2006 01:00 AM | Link to this

Samuel, I agree with you on the Boston trade scenario. That’s the most attractive to me. Here’s where we differ just a bit: if Boston was dead set against letting Jefferson go, I’d be happy to see Kendrick Perkins coming. That’s a big fella. Again, I agree also with the Lakers scenario. Mihm wouldn’t hurt anything here as he is a true center and can clean glass some and block some shots. If we could get Bynum…man, that would be like having the first round draft pick early. I think a lot can be done with him. But I also think that unless L.A. thinks Harrington and maybe another piece or two can put them over the top now, they won’t want to let Bynum go. That kid has some fire to him. Saw him going up against Shaq in a game last season: he was NOT afraid. Dunked right in front of Shaq after being dunked on the previous play. Then went down the court and traded elbows before Big Daddy Shaq put him in his place. We don’t have anybody like that right now. I still like the Boston trade scenario, though. Surely we could snare one of the two young PF/C guys. Of course, that does make things interesting for the “centers” and forwards that we have. Nothing wrong with some healthy intense competition right? To be honest, I was never excited about the potential deal with Indy, there was nothing to be excited about! Just wanted it to be over. The Golden State trade has some potential as well. Bottom line, I hope like hell we don’t just go the cheap route, like Joe Smith and cash. I’d rather reap some young talent now and work with that rather than stick another vet in there and hope for a good draft pick next year. And you gotta understand if the very mention of drafts and draft picks makes me nervous. Who knows what we’ll end up with, ya know? At the same time, dealing for Joe Smith and cash is still better than the Indy deal to me. Only there’s no draft pick involved, most likely. Smith is not the defender/shot-blocker he once was, but he may still be better at it than Lo Wright. Who knows..

Newkid, I am not averse to Solomon getting some big stage burn, but I don’t think he will unless he really shows something in training camp. And, when drafted as late as he was, I get the feeling he was looked at as a project. Comparing him to Smith or Marvin is rather unfair. Sure, Solomon is very athletic, but I think Smith is even more so. He was drafted higher and just had the kind of ability that kinda forced the coach to play him. I feel that Solomon is more raw than Smith was. But I could be wrong. Marvin was less raw than Smith, at least in the shooting department. When he worked out for the Hawks, they were saying that they felt he brought something different to the table than what Harrington and Smith did. I think we’re beginning to see what that was.

BP, that was pretty funny. I wouldn’t have expected any other kind of ending from Ando, either. Nor could I blame him.

This may not be a popular theory, but again, if at all possible, we may really be better off snagging some young talented bigs from other teams in a Harrington trade. Imagine getting the opportunity to continue and refine the development of a Jefferson, Perkins, O’Bryant, or Bynum. Then you don’t have to worry as much about draft position or the chance to draft a Noah or Oden. Besides, and I hate to stir this back up, who’s supremely confident that we’ll get a good draft slot? And more to the point, how confident are we that we’d maximize that opportunity? With one or more of the young guys mentioned above, we can stay young and move forward quicker. Also, I think at this point Arn Tellem will expedite a trade pretty swiftly. Don’t know how long it will take, but he’s legendary. I think he can get Al in a good position and the Hawks will benefit from it. Hope so anyway…

By A Thinking Fan

August 19, 2006 06:36 AM | Link to this

JJ back-to-back - YEAH!

By Samuel

August 19, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

Ray,

I don’t really care for Perkins all that much. He’s got a shi_load of ability but plays too apathetic to me. If we can’t get Jefferson I’d rather go with the Laker deal. According to the article they were shopping Cook and Mihm, not Bynum. I don’t see them moving Bynum. Both those guys should be starters for the Hawks(IMO).

Actually, I think Joe Smith would be an upgrade over what we have now inside. He’s been a versital and steady big in this league for a while. Actually capable of big numbers on a given night. Lo Wright just doesn’t do much for me. He will help, but won’t make a big difference in wins and losses.

By wild pacer fan

August 19, 2006 10:53 AM | Link to this

As happy as some of you are, I would not rule out the Pacer deal still happening. For the simple reason if you S&T Al to any other team it will cost ATL at least 8 million and that is only if all players you receive are in the last year of their contracts. You must trade salaries for salaries at least in the first year. The only way around it is if the other team is under the cap. I know of only 2 teams under the cap and they are not interested.

Maybe this is the Simons way of forcing a better deal. 36m over 4 years is still a lot of jack.

Here’s hoping it still happens. I like Al.

Pacer fan!

By OconeeDawg

August 19, 2006 11:57 AM | Link to this

Man, it just kills me as a hoops fan that the Hawks will not be able to get a non-lottery first round pick for Harrington and the other guy. What a great deal that could have been.

By mountain_jim

August 19, 2006 12:00 PM | Link to this

Very true pacer fan, now the Hawk’s ownership gets a chance to prove they really are willing to take back some salary in order to get something for Al (and I will be surprised and pleased if/when they do), or to try and get Al to take Indy’s 4 year offer.

Every member of this attempted 3-way deal may still be posturing at this point, but someone may later be willing to alter their previous positions.

By doc

August 19, 2006 12:01 PM | Link to this

pacer fan, leverage goes to the pacers if they are luke warm to the idea of taking on al. the hwawks have very few cards in their hand beause of their owners, out most vocal fans dont seeem to realize the game the owners are playing and how it affects the operation of the team.

personally, i dont think al with his injury record with knee probs is worth a 6 yr deal. think we are going to see some added strain to the kids that come out early to compete from high school that will take its toll on the other side of their careers. with that said the pacers need al more than they think.

from my standpoint as a hawks fan if the pacers dont get al then they will probably finish below the hawks this year or not that far ahead. remember the pacers lost four to the hawks last year and didnt they even lose with oneal in the lineup? just not impressed with what they have done post season and to figure they got so little for artest it was embarassing. that was playing too much the game of addition by subtraction. that also was a very prolonged issue so i wonder if something is going on behind the scenes there, if there is so little agreement between management and the owners.

good luck to you guys in the season coming up, beat up the other guys all you want. heh heh

By wild pacer fan

August 19, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

I agree m_jim. Will the ownership stand up?

We have been stuck with austin Croshrere (nice guy, great on the team) but 49mil over 7 was a bit much. The better Arn does for Al the more ATL has to match up.

I think we are seeing the owners get smarter. If some team wants to give Al 60-65 mil over 6 yrs. I say I will miss you, but take the jack. But ATL must now take on a min 8 - 9 mill in year 1.

By the time is ends, you guys may be giving us a couple of mil.

By ray

August 19, 2006 01:04 PM | Link to this

Sam, I see what you mean about Jefferson vs. Perkins. What I’m saying is either guy is a serious upgrade to our frontcourt. Don’t get me wrong, I would pick Jefferson if given a chance, but perhaps Perkins just needs a change of scenery and more minutes. As it is, if you look at last season’s stats, both guys played relatively the same amount of minutes per game and their production was very similar. Perkins did better in the shot-blocking category and had a higher field goal percentage. I do think that Jefferson is going to be one of the great pf/c players in this league before long, though. Perkins will probably always be solid, but I don’t know if he’ll be a big star. You never know. Joe Smith is indeed another upgrade to our frontcourt and is a good defender/rebounder. Can score too. I would hope that his defense is still up to snuff. If so, he is indeed a better upgrade than Wright. Didn’t see a lot of his play in Milwaukee, so I really don’t have a qualified opinion. As for the Lakers and Bynum, I seriously doubt they’d give him up as I said before. Mihm would do just fine as once again, he’s an upgrade. Cook looks good, he’s got some versatility. But this is another 6’9” guy (albeit 258 lbs.) and I don’t see him taking a starting spot from Josh or Marvin. Not that it couldn’t happen, mind you. I just haven’t seen enough from him that makes him a starter immediately, in my opinin of course. Of course, that only brings up an old argument: can Smith and Marvin start at the forward slots together, which is capable of being the pf, aren’t they both small forwards, etc. If Cook turns out better than either at th PF spot, then yeah somebody’s gotta go to the bench and be the sixth or seventh man. In which case, you’re looking at someone demanding a trade down the line. Mihm a starter? Yeah, I can see that happening. I can also see ZaZa stepping up his defensive game and keeping his starting job, especially with reduced minutes allowing him sufficient rest. We’ll see. And I still don’t like the Indy trade/deal. I feel like we get screwed on that, high draft pick or not. Why? Because we don’t know who’s available at what slot and whether they’re worth the bother. I know it sounds like I’m changing my stance, but I figure we can build better future-wise by getting young first and second year guys who have tasted the NBA game than we can playing crazy games in the draft.

By Ken Strickland

August 19, 2006 01:33 PM | Link to this

WILD PACER FAN, when all is said and done, I think Indy will eventually step forward because they need Harrington in the worst way. They have lost way too much bench and scoring strength in Paja, Bender, Croshere and Johnson. Paja replaced Reggie, as the teams outside sharpshooter, but who replaces him. SJackson is the only real option and he doesn’t scare anybody. Without AL, they will have only one consistant, dependable scorer starting. Even with AL, they will have to stay healthy and that’s asking an awful lot.

By Samuel

August 19, 2006 01:56 PM | Link to this

I have seen quite a bit of Cook during the last few years. He’s a big body who is also deadly from down town. One of the sweetest strokes in the game. Right now I’d start him over Marvin due to his experience and ability to defend down low. I would play he and Josh together. He can play the 4 on defense and the 3 on offense. Josh is a better defender at the 3.

Gotta go. It’s Tiger Time.

By wild pacer fan

August 19, 2006 02:19 PM | Link to this

Ken, I agree. I hope the Simon’s and Walsh/Bird told Arn, fine don’t take it,then go see if someone will pay more and that ATL will agree to the on-coming contracts.

We think 36/4 is fair market. Probably more.

Once fair market for Al is figured out, I think ATL will come back to the Pacers and say can you match this… I want Al if the price is right……36/4 is…

By Ken Strickland

August 19, 2006 06:25 PM | Link to this

WILD PACER FAN, there is another reason I think the Pacers will come back. If they don’t use that exception they acquired from NO, they will lose it. They went to a lot of last minute effort to acquire it from NO, and I don’t think they’ll simply throw it away. They need AL’s OFF in the worst way, and his presence would allow O’neal to play C, instead of PF, which is his most effective position. Playing O’neal at PF would make them very slow and rather methodical, with insufficient outside shooting to prevent DEF’s from clogging the lane. I believe the issues that have affected the deal is between AL and the Pacers. So if ATL trades him to another team, Indy loses Harrington, their exception, along with the $250,000 they paid NO to acquire it, plus they’d still end up getting nothing for Paja. If BK allowed something like that to happen in ATL, there would be shots fired on this blog.

By mykhalc

August 19, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

hey ken, BK’s already dodgin’ the bullets from/in this blog. as you mentioned in your last post, the shots instead would be coming from assault weapons and other heavy artillery!!LOL

just foolin’ around OFFICER RAY!!!LOL

enjoy your weekend ALL!! GO FALCONS!!

By Wild pacer fan

August 19, 2006 08:27 PM | Link to this

Ken , the trade ex is good for a year. We can use all or part to help a deal along. But I very much agree that Al would help our low post scoring. because jo usually gets the better defender and Al would be matched with a lesser defender.

I still think Indy is a better than 50-50 chance, because in the beginning ATL want to give us edwards 1m and pay 3m and now they are willing to take on 7-9 mill in salary. that is a 11 to 13 mil swing. Right now I don’t see it, but I guess ATL could change their position.

By ray

August 20, 2006 01:26 AM | Link to this

I didn’t watch the Lakers much, Sam. I’ll take your word for it. I’d welcome the guy in any case. Nothing like good stiff competition, right? I do see from a statistics standpoint that the fella can shoot pretty damn good, though.

Mykhalc, keep your terroristic activity plans to yourself, I don’t want to know about it. Just kidding, :). Hey, I’m not the blog enforcer, that’s Sekou. He’s the only man who can shut things down. I’ll join with ya: Go Falcons!

By HB Ando

August 20, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

A couple of thoughts:

Great article by Sekou. I think it’s important that public expectation of the fans and the media remain high for optimizing the value of Al Harrington. Too much willingness for some folks here to accept giving his talent away for nothing. Obtaining some young talent, with upside and expiring contracts, is the kind of thing we were talking about last year, and should be the focus of the organization.

I’m not wowed by bringing in Smith, but I will say that if we were to go that route, then we should pull out of the Wright signing. Smith would fill the role Wright would play here, and he’s a better shooter and shot blocker than Wright. With an expiring contract, we could trade him again, before the deadline, or just let him walk next summer, and it would give Shelden, Jones, Marvin and Josh a year to see who can step up and if they can comprise a solid rotation with Zaza for the future.

In responding to some folks’ suppositions that Billy was being smart not to take on somebody else’s bad contracts, like Murphy or Dunleavy, which I whole heartedly agree with, I still said, that leaving out the alternate option of pushing a Golden State to give up a young big, like Biedrens or O’Bryant was, to me, underperforming the GM role.

Sekou’s suggestions merely underscore what several of us have believed for some time: there are more than the two obvious options of either receiving a cumbersome contract in return for Al, or receiving very little at all. We need space for upcoming decisions on Marvin and Josh, and for potential free agents next summer. But getting a young big, and an the expiring contract of a solid role player or two, aren’t bad options. Getting a first rounder for next summers’ draft is still very much necessary, given the failure of Billy to protect the franchise’s long-term interests in giving up our likely lottery pick to Phoenix, unecessarily.

On the Al and Indy issue, I disagree that Indy needs Al bad enough to meet his financial demands. They have Grainger to play the small forward position next year. And Bonzi Wells is still out there as an option for a sign and trade (and I think he’s realized he’s not going to get the kind of money he was demanding from Sac).

Sekou has appropriately put the spotlight of expectation back on ownership to use Al effectively, as a tool to continue to rebuild the franchise. For once, I’ll agree with you folks who find defense of Billy in ownerships’ question marks. The financial ramifications, of whatever transaction ultimately takes place, will define ownerships’ commitment for next seasons’ team. What is received, talent-wise, given whatever financial framework that ends up driving the deal, will still be a matter of purely basketball assessment, and on Billy’s hands (in other words, even if ownership limits the financial commitment of the return on Al’s contract, it doesn’t mean there aren’t viable options, fitting within those restrictions, that aren’t better basketball choices than others).

I, for one, am glad the Indy deal didn’t go down. There’s a renewed opportunity, and responsibility, to get some quality chips in exchange for Al Harrington. I choose to heighten my expectations of management in how they resolve this issue, rather than lessening them based on what I view as unacceptable excuses (whether they be excuses for ownership, or Billy).

The article by Tim Tucker indicated that ownership is rolling out a new marketing plan designed to reach out to more potential “regional” ticket buyers. That certainly doesn’t sound like a group that’s planning on losing control of its franchises. I’d just like to see the Harrington transaction handled in such a way as to infuse some optimism that they are serious about placing a winning product on the floor this season. We need to, at the minimum, get to 2 steps forward for every step back. Speedy was a step forward. Shelden was a big step back. How Al is handled will crytalize whether this was a 2 up and 1 back summer, or a 1 up and 2 back fiasco, in a long history of direction-less management.

By ray

August 20, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Ando, good points. And as you can see from my posts prior to this, we’re in agreement about the Indy deal. Never really liked it, but according to all the “sources” it was the one that was going to be made and the other teams were SOL. So I kinda gave up on hoping for a variety of choices. I was excited at the prospect of getting other guys who were worth something in here, but then it trickled down to a draft pick and cash, which disappointed me. Seeing how BK tends to operate with some degree of tunnel vision, I figured it was all done but the crying and decided to move on because what’s done is done. And now this! Excitement and opportunity again! Like I said before, getting young talented bigs in here beats the idea of waiting and hoping to get into the higher part of the draft (where we have no idea whatsoever what Billy will pick) and then trying to develop that player or signing some lower level free agent for ridiculous money. Or worse yet, gambling on free agency and once again missing out on everybody. In light of this new opportunity, I have to agree with the “future is now” folks and hope that we get some young talent. I like the guys we have, but there’s nothing wrong with lighting a fire under their aes and seeing who can do what. That’s upgrading the bench and starting lineup without spending too much. Man, I hope this really brings us something good. And you’re right, Ando, if management botches this *second opportunity, we’re in deep s*t.

By ray

August 20, 2006 01:29 PM | Link to this

OOps, highlighted more in the last post than I meant to. Typing too fast again.

By jhan

August 20, 2006 02:13 PM | Link to this

I agree with Ray & Ando about getting some actual bodies in here to play. Any of the young bigs mentioned here would work for me. You have to think that second tier / project players on other teams would feel like they have a chance to be significant contributors on this team. If I was a young big man in this league I would be anxious to come here and compete for playing time with ZaZa, Sheldon & Solomon. None of these guys are established vets with proven games. Competition at all spots is what will make this team succeed.

By reese

August 20, 2006 07:42 PM | Link to this

Add me to the list of the individuals who are happy that the Indiana deal fell through. I don’t care whose to blame, just glad we didn’t make the move.

Wow, some people are starting to understand the importance of bringing in talented big men now. Glad that Ray and Jhan are finally starting to see the light.

Lets hope that ownership is continuing to read this blog and understand that we fans want players now. It is their chance to prove they are willing to spend for a winner. If Billy is the person holding out, then they can persuade him to make a bold move now.

Dwight Howard looked awesome in the 2 US games. A talented big man who is able to score with both the left and right hand down low as well as dunk over people. Plus, he is rebounding and blocking shots. He is playing way above the rim.

Hopefully, whatever big man we acquire with the Al Harrington deal will be able to average a double double and more than 1 block per game. It would be a bonus if he is an above the rim player as well.

And for those of you who still want to keep the status quo and be happy with the existing team which would improve our chances of keeping our number 3 pick next year. Suppose Yakim Noah decides he wants to play another year of college. Suppose Greg Oden doesn’t recover well from his wrist surgery and decides to stay in school another year.

By doc

August 20, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this

reese, good comments about your love of the game, enjoyed it immensely. very few have denied the need for a big man except the owners of this franchise. what is going to be interesting is the move by the pacers has now forced the owners hand to put up or shut up. the owner of the pacers has esssentially thrown down the gauntlet to the franchise indicating that if you continue to run a cheap and second rate organization you will be beat on like a drum and deservedly so. that is what happened before in many franchises and because there wasnt a forum like this to point these oddities out the clippers for example were able to continue to stay under the radar from contempt and ridicule.

personally, i too am very pleased that simons has said no as it gives the fans a chance to see really what direction this organization is going, accept no salaries, then we know they want our money without wanting to give us a product. to do nothing will confirm what so many including sekou now have felt since december this past year when nothing was done to shore up the “big” deficiency.

agree, it is foolish to plan for the lottery.

By ray

August 20, 2006 09:23 PM | Link to this

Reese, what can I say? I was very much stuck on the idea that the deal with Indy was more or less done and other options weren’t going to be pursued. Not happy about it, just resigned to the fact. Good thing it didn’t turn out to be a fact. Now, as everyone else has already said, it’s up to the owners (and BK) to get something good done. Don’t trust anything to the draft. Hey, I don’t have a problem changing my tune once I realize the notes are wrong, LOL!

By G-Money

August 21, 2006 12:30 AM | Link to this

Hey, it seems that for once we are all in agreement that we’re glad that the deal didn’t go down with Al. While I support the Hawks, I too felt like we weren’t nearly getting enough support for the team with the deal. I can’t understand why the pacers wouldn’t jump at the deal that they had. Al plus a mil in Edwards, please.

As I look at it, the only real option is the Joe Smith option with Denver. They aren’t giving up Camby. We wouldn’t want KMart or his contract. If Golden State were giving up Biedrins then it might make sense but otherwise, I don’t see it. Given the timing and the moves already made, it seems as though we’re still in a pickle as it relates to obtaining positive options for Al.

By CJ

August 21, 2006 12:36 AM | Link to this

I hope the vicous cycle with the draft picks end as well. Sign up or trade for existing players like every other team does or stop pretending to put a competitive team on the floor. We all know what the result of next years draft would be anyway..a 6-8,6-9 foward.

By Astro Joe

August 21, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

I think the only ones who didn’t want players in return for Al were guys named Gearon, Levinson, Seydel, etc. Personally, I don’t care who we get, I just would hate to see a bloated contract for a prolonged period of time. And I also would be okay with an ‘08 pick, as I still think that several of the ‘07 prospects will stay in college another year as opposed to wait in line behind Noah and Oden. I’m kind of losing the interest in the roster make-up at this point, as Smith or Lo are pretty similar in terms of functional skills.

By ray

August 21, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

I’m tired of waiting for a good move. Heck, I’m tired of waiting for a move period. And as usual, there’s no decent rumors going around about who we might be talking to and what players/contracts would be involved. I saw a little on Golden State and I think L.A. being willing to offer Harrington six year contracts. Since then, the only thing I’ve seen is that Danny Ainge was trying to talk to BK and pretty much got the door slammed in his face. Great. Well, he needs to come up with something better than a 2008 draft pick. And if he selects one more damn forward….

By Astro Joe

August 21, 2006 02:16 PM | Link to this

Oh and by the way, let me be sure I understand what transpired in Indiana. Walsh negotiated a deal with Al’s first agent and BK. Agreed to contract terms with Al and then negotiated away the $3M in cash wth BK. Al didn’t like contract and dumped Miller for Tellum. Tellum negotiated same deal and Hawks waited for Indiana to say yes. Walsh, who had negotiated Al’s contract with 2 agents took the offer to his boss and the boss sent him back to try to negotiate a contract for 2 years and $21M less. Walsh couldn’t pull that rabbit out of the hat and it appears (for now) that the Indiana deal is done.

So I wonder if all owners get to tell their employees to go back and negotiate another deal? I wonder if all owners have the power to say “no” to their employees, the GM? I wonder if all owners balance profits and losses with acquiring talent? Or, maybe that only happens in Indiana. After all, in Atlanta, everything revolves around the ultra-autonomous Billy Knight, lord and master of the Atlanta Hawks.

By newkid

August 21, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

To Joe’s point in his 2:16 p.m. post, check out Walsh’s quotes below in today’s article in Indy paper. Just passing it on guys.

Walsh Says Harrington Deal Still On Table

By Conrad Brunner Aug. 21, 2006

The Pacers are still very much involved in discussions about a possible sign-and-trade deal for Atlanta forward Al Harrington, franchise CEO & President Donnie Walsh said today.

Weekend media reports suggested ownership had stepped in to squelch the deal, leading the Hawks to re-open trade discussions with other teams.

“I think we’re coming down to it and we’ll either get it or we won’t,” said Walsh. “It’s a negotiation – in terms of the trade, in terms of the (contract).

We’ve been negotiating and that takes time. Usually, the press doesn’t get wind of that until it gets toward the end. But here it seems like they were in it before we had any understanding we could do a trade with Atlanta and then (reported) definitely that the deal was done or that it was imminent before we even talked to Al’s people.

You have to understand, there was also a change of agents in all this, so that took some time, too.

“I think it’s business as usual, myself. It’s gone the way every deal goes for me.”

Walsh said co-owners Herb and Melvin Simon have been involved in the discussions, but that has been the norm throughout his career. The difference in this case, he said, has been the public nature of the trade negotiations through ongoing newspaper accounts in Atlanta and Indianapolis.

“The owners always get involved. The owners were involved from day one,” he said. “If you think you’re giving out $20-40 million packages without getting in touch with the owner, you’re crazy. (Herb Simon)’s involvement has always been helpful to me. Look, this guy has made some great deals in his life, so he always brings a wrinkle in that’s useful.

“I think he’s in support of the deal but within the parameters.”

The framework for the deal is in place, Walsh said. What remains is to work out the details of Harrington’s contract.

“There have been three stages to this,” Walsh said. “The first stage was where there were a lot of teams trying to trade for Al, we had the exception but it looked like they could get more money if they went in different directions so we weren’t as involved then.

When that got over with and those trades didn’t go down, then they started focusing on us. But then we had to deal with Atlanta as to what it would take to make this trade. So that was a negotiation, and that took time.

“We got to the point last week where we kind of understand each other and now we’re dealing with Al. It’s that simple.”

While not divulging details of the negotiations, Walsh said media reports of a 6-year, $57 million deal are little more than supposition based on the Pacers’ $7.5 million trade exception.

Those figures were reported before Walsh had entered into negotiations with Tellem, which began in earnest last week. Harrington fired his previous agent during the trade talks and hired Tellem, who was required by league rules to wait two weeks before assuming his role as the forward’s official representative.

“You’re going through stages where the press seems to have things, I think from the players and the agents, because it’s in their interest to kind of put it out there,” he said. “I know this: we haven’t made any statements, and I’m talking about me, Herb and Larry (Bird).

“I just think there’s been a lot of misinformation about where this deal was and a lot of suppositions. People had the deal negotiated before we even talked about it.

It was pretty easy to look at our exception and say, ‘Oh, it’s going to be $57 million,’ when we hadn’t even talked about it yet. I read last week the deal was imminent. Who’s telling them that?

“Deals take time. There are negotiations going on. It’s no different than any deal we’ve done other than it’s been in the press for a long time. It has not been imminent at any point, and certainly not at the point it was reported to have been imminent.”

So what is the status of the deal?

Said Walsh: “It’s in negotiation.”

Pacers.Com

Edited by FrankSlade7 (08/21/06 12:34 PM)

By Wild Pacer fan

August 21, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

There you have it from the man himself.

I think Ando is on the money.. will ATL ownership step up and take on contracts.

what would be better for you:

Joe Smith or a 1st rounder from us?

By michael m.

August 21, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

it’s not gonna be just joe smith. a #1 pick would be included for sure, either denver’s or philly’s (from golden state). most likely pietrus would have to be added salary wise, though i am not sure if he would be coming here in the proposed 4 team deal.

indy screwed this deal up for themselves. there is no two ways about it.

By michael m.

August 21, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

at this point the expiring contracts of joe smith, pietrus, a 2007 #1 pick (most likely lotto protected) and $3 million seems most likely. for us, it is mostly about the pick. i wouldn’t be surprised to see smith and/or pietrus traded before the year is out. we would have a few months at least to see how they fit into our team, although i doubt either will be part our longterm growth.

personally, i wish we could make the bynum thing happen with the lakers. it’s the only option that really sizzles and excites. but it takes two to tango (or four if the hawks/denver/clippers/warriors trade goes down).

By honest_abe

August 21, 2006 03:55 PM | Link to this

lol aj!

By clyde

August 21, 2006 04:01 PM | Link to this

When Al signs a one year deal with someone to end all this drama I will have a FIRE BILLY AND WOODY t-shirt for all of yall.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Wild Pacer fan

August 21, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

to Michael m,, If that deal was available to ATL I think they would have taken by now.

By no deal happening yet, it looks like ATL perfers the IN deal.

By michael m.

August 21, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

pacer, it takes a minute to put it all together when you have 4 teams involved. look how difficult it was just for the hawks and indy to try and work something out. that doesn’t mean it isn’t going to happen. at this point, indy’s best chance is to compromise and add a fifth year to al’s package. even then, it would still be merely a backup plan to all concerned save for the atl owners most likely. hopefully the spirit doesn’t hold their own ineptitude in the courtroom against the hawks and their fans. if they don’t come through on this, they will lose whatever fan backing they still have.

By Wild Pacer fan

August 21, 2006 10:29 PM | Link to this

Well, get ready to be disappointed in ownership..ESPN.com says Indy deal is very likely again 35.3/4 years.. for a #1 pick.

posted at 9:55 by Stien. he is reliable…

By Clint Roszelle

August 26, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

So let’s play make-believe for a moment by allowing the statements that there was nothing on the table that could help the Hawks be taken as fact.

If this is the case and if we didn’t want to strap ourselves with additional contracts, instead electing to maintain cap flexibility, then why was cash not included as part of the deal?

Maybe I’m missing something here, but this appears to be the one variable that we’re missing here. For a cash conscious team that is losing money, it would seem that cash considerations would be one of the first items on my “Things To Ask For When Making A Trade Checklist”?!?