Hawks

By billy

July 30, 2006 09:03 PM | Link to this

Let me throw out there that I’m not too impressed with the Hornets moves. Will they be better? Yes. Have they tied up more than 100 million in two overrated players? Yes - Peja and Chandler. One is on the decline and the other is always hurt and couldn’t score to save his life.

I like David West and Chris Paul, of course. But I’m wondering if the Hornets didn’t just pull a Danny Ferry and overpay just to put expensive players around his two young stars.

As for our Hawks, I’m not sure which big we could have gotten if we’d acted sooner. We immediately got the PG we needed. While I still wish we’d taken Brandon Roy - look it up - I think Sheldon will be solid down low. I don’t care if he starts. I just care if he’s giving us 12/10/3 by the end of the year.

By ray

July 30, 2006 10:26 PM | Link to this

Sekou,

Thanks for making it known that this blog carries weight. I for one really didn’t think that it did. As for this deal delay, it has seriously hampered us in making other deals that are a must. Obviously we need another big guy down low, one that can play significant defense. Until the Harrington deal is done, we’ll continue to miss out on things. Like you said, other teams are moving right along. I read one comment on InsideHoops that said that BK moves at “glacial speed” when making deals. You’re right, we’re in dangerous waters here.

As for the arguments about Shelden and draft picks, it’s gotten old for now. I want to see him play this season and see how he progresses. If he gives us little to be happy about, then those who predicted or even hinted about his so-called demise can crow about it for the next year, as they obviously will, pointless as it may be. And if he turns into something solid, that’s great for everybody, right? As for Soloman, it would indeed be ironic if he turned out better than Shelden. But will we stay mired in irony or rejoice in a steal of the draft? Of course, I’m not getting too excited about that possibility. I really can’t wait to see what Smith has done with himself.

By Samuel

July 30, 2006 10:51 PM | Link to this

Billy I gotta go with Cuz on the Hornets. I thought they improved as much as any team in the league this offseason. They added:

Peja- One of the best pure shooters in the game teamed with one of the best playmakers in the game in Paul. Peja is on his way back. No “D” but Chandler got his back. He and Bryon have been looking to hook up for a while.

Bobby Jackson- Although ofter injured can ball with the best when healthy. Sure he is a risk but could be well worth it.

Tyson Chandler- No offense at all. We know that but neither is Ben Wallace. He won’t be asked to score at all with West, Peja, Paul, Jackson and Co.

Hilton Armstrong and Cedric Simmons- Probably the best “combo” of big men taken in the draft this year. Two big bodies.

Don’t forget they picked up Marc Jackson during the season last year a very versitle and nasty big man who can also score.

I think NO/Okl will make a big improvement this year and challenge for that 8 spot in the west.

I’m not sure about the Bucks moves however. I like Charlie V. but I believe they will suffer from the loss of TJ Ford. Blake will help but the other guys are just throw-ins. My boy Mo Williams will get his chance to start now, no excuses, he better hold up for Mississippi. Also, I really like Charlie Bell. I caught him last year at Phillips and he was unstoppable. I think they, along with Indy are in danger of losing out on the playoffs this year(even if Indy gets Al). I can see New York, Orlando and possibly Charlotte making a serious run for the playoffs this year. Charlotte’s chances are of course heavily dependent on Okafor and May’s health. Morrison will give them much needed outside shooting and Felton didn’t have the year that Paul had but has all the potential in the world.

Ando, I gotta give you some on Darko. I was wrong about him. He’s not a scrubb at all. He actually showed me some potential last year. Dwight Howard is a “BEAST”. Nuff said.

Our Hawks are in for a long season unless we can add some more talent. I know they are the Home team but realistically we are hurting talent wise.

By billy

July 30, 2006 11:08 PM | Link to this

What you’ll see with the Hornets is a Steve Nash type team. They’ll overachieve because of Paul. But I don’t see them making the playoffs. Not unless Paul surprises me and raises his game to another level - is that even possible?? The dude was on fire last year.

I think these teams in the West will be better than the Hornets: Dallas, Houston (if McGrady can stay healthy - big IF), San Antonio, Memphis, Utah, Clippers, Lakers, Suns - and maybe the Kings and Nuggets.

But, yeah, the Hornets are better.

Don’t think the Bucks will miss Ford so much. See what Blake can bring to the table if the deal goes through.

By billy

July 30, 2006 11:19 PM | Link to this

Question:

Would y’all rather the Hawks have 100+million tied up in Peja and Chandler…

OR

…prefer the Hawks as is?

By Samuel

July 30, 2006 11:26 PM | Link to this

Just Win Baby.

By Clyde

July 30, 2006 11:36 PM | Link to this

Hey Sekou. I want to make a comment in regards to your post on the last blog. I think this blog is important. It separates the real fans from the fake. To all the bloggers in here that post almost everyday don’t get discouraged. When we win a championship we will all look back on this blog and sy it was all worth it.

And Sekou you said people in high places were reading these blogs. So if anyone in the front office is reading right now I have FIRE BILLY AND WOODY t-shirts still available. Get at me.

Finally if this Harrington deal goes through like rumored yall have to be disappointed with the improvements to this team compared to others. Other teams in the East have improved with proven players. We’re just going off players that have potential. This could be good but the odds are against us.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Richard

July 30, 2006 11:41 PM | Link to this

I think that the problem in Atlanta is that the ownership group that we have now has ran short of money and Belkin if he gets control of the team will spend his money. Also I think that Billy overplayed his hand in the Harrington situation and will end up with pretty much nothing in the way of help for the Hawks for what was probably the second most coveted free agent on the market. Billy has did this before on trades and is very spotty with his draft picks. I am not saying that Billy could have gotten a kings ransom for AL with other teams knowing that the Hwaks were looking to unload him but some cash and a draft pick down the road is not what I expected. The Hawks need new ownership (not the Spirit or Belkin) and a new management team from Bernie right on down to Billy being shown the door. I think that Coach Woodson has shown that he can lead a team and even get his teams to play hard when they have every right to pack it in so I would give him another year or two at least before making a decision to let him go or sign him to a long term deal. Since I don’t have the money to buy the team however all of this is just an opinion and is worth little more than my Hawks season tickets on the open market. I wish the judge had ruled that both groups (Spirit and Belkin) had to sell and get a new ownership for the Hawks that actually care about basketball. Where is David McDavid when you need him?

By Knightmare on Peachtree Street

July 31, 2006 01:45 AM | Link to this

David McDavid? Hahahahahahaha! Thats so funny because it is so true. The one thing a used car salesman would surely know is how to cover up each little nick, crack, or mechanical failure to make the perception at least look like something we want to buy! We got a bunch of lemons! Atlanta Spirit? I personally will not spend one red cent to support your lackadasical, non responsive, arrogant asses!

Where is Ray McDavid when you need him? S**t! Even Ronald McDonald would be better that these guys!

By doc

July 31, 2006 02:14 AM | Link to this

sekou, glad to know im not that far off from my earlier comments on the other blog yesterday on lorenzen as the most likely fit. would have rather it been a magliore or a harrison or foster but he is the type of guy who can give quality minutes and allow some breathing time for zaza and provide serious practice experience for all the young guys to work as he is a professional nba’er.

sam, andy; testy boys from earlier today.

By bootsybug

July 31, 2006 04:32 AM | Link to this

i personally do not blame either side of the ownership for the current mess the hawks are in. who can blame them for trying? david stern should be ashamed for letting this new ownership take over.

look at it this way. if i want to buy the hawks, but i’m broke as a joke (which i am by the way), i’m going to try to get some other people involved, say, ando, doc, and clyde. the whole world knows that i, or even we, don’t have the money to properly run such a complex business (hawks/thrashers/philips rights).

the same can be said with this clown of a spirit group. not one of them had enough money to buy the three elements of the spirit, so they got together and anyone can see that wouldn’t work for financial reasons, nevermind the egotistical reasons. couple that with the fact that this is an out of town group that doesn’t give a poop about the hawks, and this sale should have NEVER happened.

shame on stern.

i love the hawks and i follow this blog almost daily. however, it’s extremely frustrating to root for the absolute worst managed team in all of professional sports. i do love the players’ effort and i think the coaching staff and the GM need one more year to sink or swim, but the ownership-itis has to be resolved immediately.

By mountain_jim

July 31, 2006 07:43 AM | Link to this

I have previously been a supporter of BK, particularly as compared to Babcock, but even I must agree that from the looks of things now he probably should have traded Al before the deadline last season, gotten more then in return and gotten more playing time and maturity for Marvin in the process…

But yes it’s the ownership woes first and foremost and no sign of Stern involvement to try and deal with this thing out of the courts and hasten the conclusion to this imbroglio.

And Stern does have some responsibility here for putting this disfunctional owner group together in the first place.

Where is he? When will he comment?

By doc

July 31, 2006 08:10 AM | Link to this

sekou, has anyone talked about the total team budget on the record? could you update us on where we stand in this regard as it is the most pressing item for the spirit and probably is dictating the slow season as the hornets, et al spend and we dont? we can talk all we want about moving fast in the off season but we are bargain basement shoppers with what will be the lowest payroll in the nba for the third straight year. when do you address the finacial culture?

i see your criticism of delay but i dont know about you sekou, but if i am trying to get a bargain i have to wait until later in the shopping season to get the deals. to shop at saks before the sales you have to have money. astro rule no. one, follow the money. sekou do you disagre that is a HUGE influence in the glacial pace of all deals, last year included?

andy, not sure about the money points you were making in the context of bringing in sheldon and a low priced big. i think you were arguing for paying more for a big time big with what you pay the two. it is not that easy, as you still would have be expected to pay the five draft slot guy coming in if it were a roy or a foye; so you cant cut corners that way and still stay within the projected budget of what looks to be less than what they paid last year.

for those of you thinking a new start with belkin will change the culture to spend more and do it quicker and bring in big time players then you need to rethink your strategy or argument. we are the baseball equivalent kansas city royals of the nba when it comes to spending and the production on the court will have to show the effects in the results we get.

By ILL-logical

July 31, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Seku, your frustration is palpable my friend. Here is a thought: why not “reveal” just who is to blame here. It is not BK-he is a hired hand.The local guys aka the Spirit are certainly part of the problem.Although they might have some friends on Marietta Street, let’s apply a little heat to their tender parts until they ,in whole or in part,start to act responsibly. IJS.

By HB Ando

July 31, 2006 10:50 AM | Link to this

Not necessarily, Doc. You’re forgeting about the use of Harrington as a tool in trade. As we’ve discussed the possibility of trading Childress, as well, why not re-sign Donta Smith on the cheap, trade Al and Childress for a $10 million big man, and draft Roy, a 3 position player, to work into the back court rotation and cover anything we would have expected out of Childress?

Instead, we have Childress, who I think projects to find minutes hard to come by, we let Smith go, despite what would have been a low-cost contract, when we have tremendous cap space, and occassional sightings suggested he had some serious upside, and we’re lining up to trade Harrington for, last time I heard, a granola bar and a “Billy Knight for King of the Universe” t-shirt, which Indianapolis just knew he’d be unable turn down.

As our Billy shows another example of the black or white view of the world; um, Billy, why are those two ridiculous choices my only two? How about neither?

Sam, after a contentious two days, you come back with a post that confirms what your Cuz said about our similarities; your comments were spot on. Before the draft, I was talking up Charlie Bell as well, and some folks told me I was crazy (not that I’m not), and we’ve talked about your fella Mo Williams for a long time. I was truly hoping that log jam at the PG would lead us to getting one of those two guys on the cheap, but I think they’re comparable to Speedy (though both of them can shoot the 3 WAAAAY better than Speedy, who’s range appears limited to lay ups and floaters).

While some, like Billy, may look at the limitations of a Chandler or a Peja, they’re missing the point I’ve been making about what a Billy Knight roster lacks: balance and defined roles. Chris Paul (who will be even better this season, based on reports out of the National Team’s summer camp) can get penetration to the lane at will. He was described as simply faster than every player he gone up against. So putting a Peja on the arc, to stand ready to punish defenses for collapsing on Paul is just smart. David West averaged 16 points on a tremendous FG% last year, and can knock down the jumper up to 20 feet consistently, when left open. Chandler doesn’t have to score on this team. Just assume the Ben Wallace-like role he has shown flashes off over the last two years. Clearly, he wasn’t comfortable with Skiles and his role in Chicago, and he appears ready to come in with a chip on his shoulder regarding his contract size, as well as his ability to play on both ends of the floor. I expect a big year out of him. The two young bigs that Sam highlights will quickly confirm that using the fifth overall pick, before the draft, to lure New Orleans to giving up 12 and 15 would have been a much better use than drafting Shelden Williams, as either Armstrong or Simmons, if not both, will likely exceed Shelden as a player within two years.

NO has gotten better on both ends of the floor. Led by the best young point guard in the game (have we already discussed whether drafting him would have been a good thing?), adding one of the best shooters/scorers, a top-five rebounder (anyone want to bet me he won’t be in the top-five in rebounding average next year), and two young bigs, and that’s how a quickly and effectively a below-average franchise rebuilds.

Finally, Joe, where do you get the sense that a 12/10 and 3 prediction for Shelden is the least bit feasable? Only 7 players averaged 10 or more rebounds per game in the NBA last season. 6 of them were stars (or emerging, if you don’t count Howard as quite a star yet). The other was Troy Murphy. What about Shelden’s summer league performance suggests he’s going to enter such rarified statistical air? Blocks? Only two players avereraged 3 blocks+! Camby and Kirilenko. Josh Smith will join them if they can work out the rotation, as he averaged well over 3 after the all-star break. I think 8/6 and 1 will be more along the lines of Shelden’s production, as he has trouble getting major minutes behind Zaza, Josh and Marvin. Shelden was a reach, and will subsequently be seen as a miss, at the #5 slot. And that’s not a knock on Shelden, he didn’t ask to over valued by Billy Knight. But he’ll deal with the implications, mainly unfair, from the average fans’ perspective, of not living up to a slot he was never really talented enough to go at.

By vdunkndunk

July 31, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Sekou, I wouldn’t point to the Hornets as a role model for the Hawks. They overpaid terribly for Peja Stojakovic (who’s numbers have been declining steadily for years now and who is injury prone and nowhere close to the all-star he once was), and then they traded for a terribly overpaid Tyson Chandler who didn’t even average 2 points a game in the playoffs. I think they’ll come to regret those decisive moves to grab overpaid, overrated players.

By Glenn

July 31, 2006 12:12 PM | Link to this

On one of those sports final type shows last night , The broadcaster guy said that the sign & trade hold up is that Big Al wants a 6 year contract & the Pacers only want to give 5. They also said we would only recieve a lottery protected 1st round pick. If i’m rehashing old news my apologies.

By doc

July 31, 2006 12:19 PM | Link to this

andy, i hear your thoughts and they are valid in a perfect world. there is one problem to the scenario, it is fantasy, you have to have the buyer of what you want to trade. maybe billy doesnt, who knows the answer to that one.

sekou you are the man on the scene and are very careful not to enter the rumors and supposition game or scenaros, what is the truth? tell me is billy as supid and difficult to deal with as is represented here? does your silence speak volumes as you let the guy hang out to dry? we dont know what has been offered or to how many teams but to say that because you havent heard anything doesnt mean it hasnt been atttempted andy.

By jhan

July 31, 2006 01:12 PM | Link to this

I also feel NO will come to regret the signing of Peja to such a large contract. The guy doesn’t produce in the playoffs & has no upside left to his game. I guess that is just my opinion.

I feel much better having JJ as our outlet to shoot the three as Speedy drives and kicks. Give me Josh/Marvin as additional wings vs. David West/ Rasual Butler/ Linton Johnson. I will give them the edge on the Center position. They have legitimate 7 footers, but I like our starting lineup 1-4 as good or better than theirs. We also have tons of cap space for next year to fill the need of Center.

NO is not going to win anything next year & their ability to make moves will be more limited than the Hawks. I go back to my earlier statement that this is a rebuilding process. This is only the third year. We should evaluate what we have this year, who can play on the court together, where our definite weaknesses are and then address them. We are just starting to come up from the bottom. We need to be patient and build this team to last, not just to make the 8th seed for a couple of years and then start over again.

By reese

July 31, 2006 01:13 PM | Link to this

Well Doc, one trade that we know he turned down was Ron Artest for Al Harrington. He stated that last year before the trade deadline. I would rather have Artest than a draft pick. Also, who knows what else we could have tried to accomplish with that deal. Like maybe a harrison as well.

Now, Indy has signed another forward from Europe and they have 15 or 16 players on their roster. I’m not sure how this is impacting any future negotiations for AL.

Billy, if we had accomplished what New Orleans has accomplished, we would all be excited about the up and coming season. They are an example of a balanced roster, all star players, intensity players, mixture of veterans and youth and they are a team without a consistent home city.

I would say the the GM of New Orleans has done an excellent job of acquiring a team for Byron Scott. Now its up to Byron Scott to build chemistry and get the best out of the players.

By HB Ando

July 31, 2006 01:17 PM | Link to this

doc, all I can say about the unknown conversations that take place between franchises is that, at the end of the day, good franchises find a way to get it done, and bad ones don’t. I don’t think there’s much question about how this franchise is viewed across the NBA. In fact, I think Sekou’s post makes it glaringly clear about how the Hawks are viewed. Given that we see many other franchises getting things accomplished in a rapid, assertive manner, it gives me pause, if not drawing me to final conclusions, that we rarely are involved in clever deals. Now what I can’t say is how much of the blame goes to Billy, versus ownership. But I’m fairly confident that there’s more than enough blame to go around and be shared across the board. The idea that Billy’s whole body of questionable decision making is completely the result of shaky ownership is simply preposterous. As is any supposition that ownership ongoing and evolving meltdown is entirely responsible for Billy’s performance. My ongoing belief that he’s a poor general manager is constructed, over time, with due acknowledgement and consideration of the ownership issue. The situation has made a bad general manager look even worse. It does not, however, alleviate him of accountability for what I perceive, in MY opinion, to be a generally mistake-laden tenure as the general manager. I think these guys tied hitched their wagon to the wrong horse. I think it has uneccesarily dragged out the rebuilding process. That doesn’t mean I disagree with every decision, or lack thereof (as I am continuing to struggle with folks who interpret all comments as black or white; and I don’t mean race). It means that when I take all things into consideration, I find his performance lacking, compounded by his gross inability to engage the potential ticket-buying fans, which, whether he likes it or not, is something a GM ought to bring to the franchise he represents.

By Sekou Smith

July 31, 2006 01:35 PM | Link to this

Some of you are missing my point. The blame game is something I stopped participating in a while back. It’s useless. I don’t care who is to blame among the owners or anywhere else. What I’m pointing out is that while this whole affair carries on, other teams are busy remaking their rosters and going about the business of building or rebuilding, whatever the case may be. The push now needs to be for solutions to this problem. How do the Hawks get past all this and back into the realm of the relevant? But don’t get anything I write twisted, I don’t care to assign blame here or really think it’s remotely close to reasonable to dedicate anyone in this mess the lone culprit. I think mistakes and miscalculations were made all around.

And any money the Hawks aren’t spending on free agency or anything else is strictly self-imposed. Their avoidance of the salary cap limit has been well documented. Even with the addition of Speedy Claxton at some $6.2 million per season, the Hawks are still roughly $10 million below the salary cap limit.

But like everything involved with the Hawks, everyone has their own interpretation of who’s right and who’s wrong, what draft pick was right or wrong and which free agent acquisition was right or wrong. That’s the purpose of this forum. I’m not here to tell you whom you should or should not like. We’re all grown ups here, for the most part (ha!), so make up your own mind based on the information that you can gather yourself or is presented by others.

By lacsho

July 31, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

It’s very hard to be patient with this organization, when you have to pull teeth to get information. If I’m a decision maker for the Hawks organization, I’d definitely take some time out to address the fans, and build a dialogue. I do not understand why everything has to be tight lipped. Especially when everyone on the planet Earth knew we were taking Shelden at the five spot. Shelden stopped working out for other teams b/c he knew the Hawks were going to draft him. Please tell me why is everyone saying we need another Big? Again if that’s the case, why draft Shelden at the 5? Why keep draft picks when we really don’t have anymore time for projects. The Hawks nucleus is very young; the players needed on this team are veterans. I do not want anymore draft picks; I want proven players. Clyde get the shirts ready, I think we might have to add some verbiage to the shirts. B/C I say fire the Atlanta Spirtit,Belkin,and Billy Knight. I’m on the fence with Woody, but I will say last year I watched him make some real suspect rotations. I think Woody is a good coach, but I do not know if he’s the right coach for this group. However, I’d like to know how much input Woody has with the team decisions. The PR representative for the Hawks sucks too. It seems like know one give a damn about the fans except for Sekou, and we all feel the same about the other writers.(need I say moore) And I wonder why the Hawks have problems filling the seats when they’re not playing a team that has an All-Star player.

My fellow bloggers, instead of lashing out at each other, we need to collectively sends emails to the Spirit Group,Belkin Billy, and Woody. And if we fell to get any responses, I say we don’t go to the games. The Hawks attendance ranks at the bottom of the NBA, so we might as well keep it that way. Sooner or later Stern has to step in b/c the city of Atlanta is a huge sports market. The NBA is missing out on a ton of money. Hell I say we picket before the games. I wish Arthur Blank would’ve bought this team, at least we know Arthur will spend money to bring the players to this franchise. I have no problems representing for the Falcons. The PR people for the falcons are excellent, and they have their own channel. The falcons are very assessable to their fan base. The falcons and hawks are like night and day, but we live in the same city.

I support the Hawks players 100%, but honestly I can know longer defend a tight lip group. This is bad business, and very disrespectful to the Hawks fans. How do you garner enough nerves up to ask fans to support your franchise after you continue to sh*t on them? If I’m trying to sell you a product, I’m going to give you all the information needed in order to get you to invest in what I’m selling you. What the Hawks are doing is telling the fans to go to hell during the off season, and then they try to beg you to invest in them right before the season starts, and they wonder why Phillips remains empty.

Ken and Doc I’m still optimistic, but I refuse to be disrespected on a continual bases. The silent treatment from the franchise is ridiculous, as fans they do owe us an explanation. I do not understand the method to this madness. The fans can make or break a franchise. We might have to do what Charlotte fans did a few years ago.

Ando, Reese, Clyde I hear you……

And Billy I feel the same way Sam does about that question. I just want a winning francshise.

By lacsho

July 31, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

If this is the case:

And any money the Hawks aren’t spending on free agency or anything else is strictly self-imposed. Their avoidance of the salary cap limit has been well documented. Even with the addition of Speedy Claxton at some $6.2 million per season, the Hawks are still roughly $10 million below the salary cap limit.

I think someone needs to muster up an explanation!!! I’m not saying we need a daily email from the Hawks, but when situations like this occurs someone from the organization in a leadership position should be speaking out to their fan base.

By ray

July 31, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

the NO hornets will have a shot at the playoffs(like last season). the ATL hawks won’t win thirty games in one of the worst divisions in the nba. the ownership reminds me of the keystone cops. we need a mark cuban, or somebody to fix this mess. i keep dreaming of a backcourt with paul and johnson, might be the starting guards on the olympic team. damn! i haven’t given up on marvin, hopefully he will blow up this season. my opinion could also change if somehow the answer gets traded down to the dirty. that would be nice. and whoever said the knicks are going to make the playoffs must be out of their mind. the hawks are no doubt better than the knicks, at least we got something.

By HB Ando

July 31, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

SS, I wasn’t trying to twist your words to support my comments. Again, I just said that I’m practically incapable of assigning accurate percentages of blame. And the truth is that I could let go of my onslaught of anti-Billy sentiments if folks didn’t continue to show up here and say it’s not his fault. Because the state of the organization suggests fault exists.

SS, you made a point yesterday about respecting my opinions despite the fact that there are a myriad of things we don’t agree on. I have spoken, on and off, over the last year about the concept of “interchangeable parts” in the construction of a successful roster. The old adage, “there’s more than one way to skin a cat” couldn’t be more true in the NBA. The truth is that no specific, individual “plans” that we volley back and forth are uniquely necessary for this team to be a winner. It’s about plugging in roles, building balance, and optimizing assets, whether they be cap space, trade options, or draft picks. At the end of the day, wins are just another form of “cats skinned”. Every time I hear someone defend Billy Knight, all I hear are excuses. Some of them are better than others, but, at the end of the day, they’re still excuses. Speedy could have been Watson. We can argue subjectively on which one each of us thinks is a better player, but the differences are negligible. Both represent a serviceable option at point guard that has never been a full-time starter in the league, but may have enough skill to improve our production at the position. Somebody asked me how Dwayne Jones was doing, the guy I felt Billy should have taken 59th two years ago, so he wouldn’t have had to take Soloman Jones at 33. They’re interchangeable. He’s been on an NBA roster since last summer, getting guaranteed money for his upside. They’re the same guy. The point is that he could have had one at 59, and used 33 this past year for another piece of the puzzle. These decisions, these misses (see Jack, below, and know that I prodded Sekou over that missed opportunity at the time), as they have accumulated over the last several years, are a major component to why this rebuilding is behind schedule. And those moves have had absolutely nothing to do with ownership.

It’s back to what Sekou said about how the good teams are rounding out their rosters. For every player that’s already changed addresses, or been traded, there’s one less option for filling ours out. There’s a purely mathmatical equation to the viable supply and demand, that our, Billy’s, growing history of sloth continues to hamper our rebuilding. Guys get so caught up in the big moves that they forget that it’s the fine details that make the difference between winning and losing. How many close games did we lose last year, when Billy failed to address, even attempt to address, the glaring holes at the point and in the paint? With Al out late in the season, we watched a front court rotation of Marvin, Josh and Zaza be unable to defend the paint. How much better is the front court if Shelden can’t crack that rotation for significant minutes.

What does anyone think will have changed in the last six months that would lead them to think our best front court will be much improved defensively? Everyone believes that our young, emerging forwards have to be on the court together, rigid definitions of 4’s and 3’s be damned. And I agree that they will play. But Shelden isn’t a five. No one has tried to paint him as anything but a slightly undersized four. So our center, who’s more likely suited for the four as well, Zaza, will continue to have to man major minutes. I’m just having trouble seeing how Shelden gets on the floor for significant periods of time. And if he can’t, IF he can’t, then what have we done to truly improve the interior defense?

Again, I’m now more interested in the rumor that another, veteran big man will be acquired after the completion of the Al deal (if not as part of it, which I suppose is still a possibility), than I am in what happens with Al. I see the talent here clearly, but I just don’t see a rotation, at this moment, that translates into additional wins (“skinned cats”).

And I don’t need more than one hand to count the number of teams that “may” be as bad or worse than us. I still think the Knicks, Raps and Charlotte will be better. That leaves us and Portland, and they added Roy and, now, Magloire, to Randolph and Jack (and for all you folks who thought Jack was overrated, please explain why they gave up Telfair and Blake to hand the man the staring job; Billy could have had him for the rights to that Lakers pick, a fact he addressed right after that draft, and admitted he didn’t think Jack was worth it. Trade that pick for the rights to Jack, and we didn’t have it to give in the Phoenix deal, because it wasn’t there to demand, and we don’t have to pay Speedy $6 million a year, and that money is available for a quality big man, especially after being added to the contract we subtract when Al is/was dealt). Trade that pick for Jack, and I can promise you that you would have never heard a peep out of me about passing on Paul. Because Paul’s value to me was how he addressed a major need here, not because I have ever thought about who was going to be better between he and Marvin (as I’ve said a million times, comparisons between the two are pointless as they don’t play the same position).

You know, even I get tired of explaining the clear logic to my criticisms of Billy’s performance, but it just baffles me that some folks can’t acknowledge how many mistakes he has made, and the cumulative effect. OK, go ahead and give me some more excuses. Doesn’t matter if they’re good or bad, they’re still just excuses. And this team will still be bad this year, again.

By pete

July 31, 2006 03:06 PM | Link to this

2 simple decisions that were botched last year by the worst GM in all of sports cost the Hawks probably 20 wins and a playoff berth last year. Had they drafted Chris Paul and listened to Belkin and NOT traded away Diaw(no way Phoenix would have matched the Joe Johnson offer when they were already paying Nash, Amare, and Marion so much)… here’s the lineup: Paul, Johnson, Harrington, Smith, and Zaza with the very versatile Diaw being the league’s best 6th man. That lineup might have won 40-45 games in a weak Eastern confernece. Way to go Billy. By the way, good job getting that cap space when no one wants to play here. How many games has “cap space” ever won anyway? And now the Harrington situation: How could they trade him and not get players back? More draft picks???? Are you kidding me? Why not just keep Harrington instead of getting draft picks that won’t be half as good as Al.

By newkid

July 31, 2006 03:57 PM | Link to this

Could someone please provide an e-mail address for the Spirit Group? Thanks.

By roan st

July 31, 2006 04:02 PM | Link to this

I have to wonder if some people on this board wouldn’t rather see the hawks lose just so they can say “told you so”. How many are true hawks fans or how many want to see their predictions of doom and gloom validated? Can we at least play a few games before some of you relegate us to the toilet of the league.

Ando, and all the rest who are crowing about NO offseason, HUH? Since when did grossly overpaying for a player rapidly on the decline(peja) and trading for an underachieving /overpayed big man constitute a good offseason. Paul is all world but I don’t see anything else they have done that screams contender. You guys will never sell me on the peja deal at 64 million. Maybe chandler will grow into the player some think he can be, but overall I would give them a C- at best.

By Samuel

July 31, 2006 04:35 PM | Link to this

Ray,

I didn’t say the Knicks “would” make the playoffs but would compete for a birth. I already know i’m out of my mind. How much, we’ll have to see.

So you think: Speedy,JJ,Marvin, Josh,Za Za, Childress, Sheldon, that Jones fella, T. Lue,Ivey,Batista and Napoleon Dynomite are a better squad than: Curry, Frye,Francis, J.Rose,Nate Robinson,J. Crawford, S. Maubury, Q. Woods, D. Lee, J. James, Mo. Taylor and possibly Jared Jeffries.

As far as blame is concerned with the Hawks. I’m like Cuz, who cares, they all suck. The bottom line is we have a pitiful sports franchise on all levels in one of the best Markets in the US. That’s the bottom line and i’m sorry but I don’t see it getting any better on the course we are taking. I will stil watch and pull for my team but to be honest i’m not too optimistic.

By jbrownjib

July 31, 2006 04:36 PM | Link to this

What is the hurry, they are trading for future draft picks and money. It’s not like they need the draft pick here to start training camp and exhibition.

By HB Ando

July 31, 2006 04:45 PM | Link to this

Roan, why don’t you afford NO the same patience you’re asking for the Hawks’ management. NO overpaid Peja in the same way that folks thougth we overpaid Joe Johnson (though I disagree, and know that Doc has spent much time highlighting the value in the way the deal was structured), in that a bad franchise has to pay a premium for a top-tier free agent. But I’ll stick to my analysis from earlier today about how that team projects from a role standpoint. We’ve got a few “do everything” players and no one to certain invaluable roles, thus we’ll struggle. Chandler is only 23, and has battled back issues, largely due to being 7’1, thin, and athletic, with the physical challenge of a pounding 82-game NBA schedule. He’s the same age as Shelden, so let’s see who’s more productive this season before writing off Chandler. With four big men 6’10 or better, in Chandler, Armstrong, Jackson and Simmons (OK, 6’9, but that’s the real number, compared to Shelden’s “real” 6’7 and 1/2), they’ve built a roster that can compensate for Peja’s defensive shortcomings, while optimizing his offensive potential playing along side Chris Paul. This team, without Peja and the four new big men, almost made the playoffs last year. Projecting them to be better from the moves they made is pretty simply, really.

And don’t confuse my postive expectations for them as something I would have wanted the Hawks to do. I just reiterated the concept of building balanced rosters and “interchangeable parts”, when it comes to player acquisition. I don’t have to “sell” you on the Peja contract. I have only to be correct that they’ll have a better record than us this year, despite being equally bad two years ago, when we won 13 and they won 18 games, and we drafted Marvin and they drafted Chris Paul. What’s the value of objectifying improvement through wins, if knuckleheads keep ignoring the obvious?

Your “rapidly on the decline” Peja closed out last year putting up 20 and 6, with 2.3 3’s per game, at over 40%, with a 90%+ FT percentage. In today’s NBA, that’s $10 million a year, easy. But the key to having Peja is having a solid defense behind him in the paint. They addressed that too. That’s called “building a balanced roster”. So if I want two emerging small forwards, who can stuff the stat box for my fantasy team, I’ll draft Marvin and Josh, and let Billy manage it. But if I want to win games in the NBA, I’ll build a team where the pieces fit, and the focus is on winning games.

The truth is that I either want the Hawks to significantly exceed expectations, in which case any and all of you are welcome to tell me how wrong I was (never shied away from admitting I was wrong, and I’m not afraid to make strong predictions), or I want them to fail miserably and give us a strong chance at getting a top-3 pick. The one thing I don’t want to see happen, and I’ve predicted for a full year now, is planning and rebuilding so poor, that we are just bad enough to have a strong lottery pick, in what is believed to be a monster draft, that we have to hand over to one of the five best teams in the NBA. Because all the decisions about rebuilding this team, the aggressiveness, and time frames, should have always taken into account the impact on the final value of that ‘07 first round pick.

And Roan, if you don’t believe I’ve been making that a point since the blog was initiated, you’re welcome to go back to last August and read up. And if you believe that point is inconsequential, should not have been a consideration over the last year, then I’m probably wasting my breath trying to offer you some viable issues to consider. The truth is that management has within their power, has had within their power, the ability to accelerate this process, which would ultimately be critical in minimizing the overall cost of Joe Johnson. If you go look at the projected top-10 in most early mock drafts, you’ll find some young players that are projected to stardom. If you give Phoenix a 4-10 pick, instead of a 15-20, then you, when you add the emerging talent of Diaw, overpaid for a player many of us still believe could have, should have, been had for the cost of his contract (and don’t forget Rondo, who was chosen with the 21st pick). If we’re not a playoff team next year, which I defy anyone here to predict, then the cold, hard truth is that the best thing that could happen for this franchise, for the future and for the fans, would be to pick in the top-3 of next years’ draft (likely Oden, Noah or Durant). I don’t see what so confusing about the big picture.

So since you give NO a C-, and they started out going into last summers’ draft with a mere five more wins than us, if their win total dwarfs ours this season, what can you possibly give Billy and the Hawks?

By newkid

July 31, 2006 05:23 PM | Link to this

For those wishing to directly e-mail the Atlanta Spirit, here’s an address I copied from an Atlanta Spirit webpage.

domains@atlantaspirit.com

I haven’t yet tried it, so not sure if you’ll get a response. Good luck.

By TonyG

July 31, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

Look, I understand that the Spirit boys were unexperienced when they first got into this… but to think these men haven’t learned anything from this whole situation is ridiculous. They are all successful, and if they do find a way out of this belkin fiasco, i DO think that they will run the team pretty well. I LOVE mike woodson, and so do the players, so firing him of all people would be INSANE!! don’t put woodson and knight in the same boat! I used to like knight, but he needs to take some ACTION! make the damn trade! get another big guy! thats it! just DO IT! speedy will be great, he really will! and why does everyone think childress is a bust. just because he hasnt exploded yet??? he keeps showing improvement every year. the only thing billy is right about is preaching patience, but he has exceeded even his own patience standards. this trade should not still be in the air like it is.

By Rick in Phoenix

July 31, 2006 05:32 PM | Link to this

Having watched how last year panned out for the Suns after the JJ sign and trade, I am thrilled by what is going on in Atlanta today. I see the Suns getting the lottery pick from the Hawks next year in a killer draft. What have the Hawks done? They drafted another forward and are basically replacing Al Harrington with Speedy Claxton. How did you get better? They are getting nothing for Harrington, who should have been traded at the deadline last year and they really haven’t addressed the log jam at the 3 spot. I see them as easily being worse then last year and at best, still a lottery team and my team, the Suns, getting a great pick to help carry them for the next 10 years.

Life is good when you do business with the Hawks organization!!!! LMAO!!!!

By doc

July 31, 2006 05:44 PM | Link to this

sekou thanks for your response and input, it is valued. great comments and dialogue today by all.

andy, i am not asking you to explain anything except to begin to analyze this from a strict dollars and cents mode and from the standpoint of organuzational planning and see if billy is the fall guy at all times. again you would look like a hairless mark bradley by now if you were running the show. you also know that i have been critical of billy at several junctures as we have moved forward on this blog so dont include me in the complete billy apologist role.

it was when i looked at the bigger picture and a stance prompted by sekou himself in december i began to see more than a billy problem. i am just not the sniper at one individual or two but look to the collective which is from which all decisions are made. since you arent a black and white guy and knowing you i know you can at least tender the input. it is fact though the owners say billy is in charge, you quickly point out admirably that he wasnt, as his 70% owner group said to move onward in the jj trade and so it would be the breaking of the camels back. that in itself should tell you something abou the culture that billy works and maybe get you to temper yourself a bit towards billy but if you cant you cant, i accept that totally.

this team looks like it is moving slowly to stay very close to the minimum and to realize the most in cash for al that can be turned around and spent on the big we are hearing about. the minimum this year is 39 mil and the max is raised to 53 mil. with the signing of speedy we were 12 mil under max if we dont do a sign and trade of al. with no salary in return for his sign and trade for a draft pick and cash we still hold the line. that puts us right at the league minimum and outside of the bobcats the lowest payroll in the nba. it seems that the hawks are holding the line at the minimum and will use the cash that they hope to get from the pacers to pay the residual of the contract of whoever it is they plan to bring in. it is all about saving money at this time, not getting fans into the seats nor winning games or getting into the playoffs. dont think billy can do it any other way and most of his decisions last year were not made with the anticipation that the ownership would blow up on him. all the comments looking back at why he did what he did a year and months ago is without acknowledging that things changed dramaticaly for this organization about august 19 last year with the signing of jj. i imagine any previous plans were shelved at that point and a very tenuous course plotted going forward.

sekou, economics play a huge role in outcomes, of the four worst teams in the league last year three of them had the lowest total salary. this has a tremendous influence on how poorly they do during the season and if they plan on holding the line it imposes a limit on how quickly they can move. the hornets, a team you mentioned as being very active in acqusitions quickly filled up their cap space and maybe not wisely, time will tell. there was no budget to keep in line there as they made quick and expensive offers to the two they signed, peja and jackson. the season will tell on how smart they were as they added two newcomers through free agency to work with paul, but will they really compliment each other? it looks good on paper but how good is chandler and how will peja do as he has to defend a little more. for the pacers to let him go so easily, as after all he was the compensation for artest, might say they arent convinced that the guy is even as good as al who all say here is a very poor defender. the hornets also paid big dollars for a guy , bobby jackson, that will fill the shoes of the guy billy got from them, speedy. does anyone here think bobby jackson is better than speedy? let me tell you, jackson’s numbers didnt match sppedy’s in spite of being on a better team, the griz, with same minutes played. so, i see the hoenets as a team as maybe weaker this year than last especially if paul goes down. paul as good as he is may put the hornets in mediocrity purgatory as he is good enough almost by himself to get them to 45 wins but without the supporting group unable to go higher.

lascho, please dont expect managemnet to become apologists for their fiscal restraint nor will they come out and state what here intention is on spending. it is one you would have to look at and come up with the real take. if the hawks are one of two teams significantly under budget it is because of two and possibly three reasons; 1. they aint got the money to burn, 2. they cant because of the courts and belkins override or, 3. they are positioning themselves to be big players next year in the free agent market. with their limited horizon of even being involved in the mechanics of the decision making of the organization in 6 months, much less in one year, i doubt it is the latter.

now reese, i understand how you can logically say we ought to have gotten artest as he is a great player. however, i didnt see it as a valuable enough addition to this team then or now based on the fact we have two very talented players that he would have to compete with for playing time and artest is a mother on playing minutes. he is as much a warrior as our jj for getting 40 or so a night. looking at it with my logic which you dont accept, possibly, the team has a guy in josh that may even surpass the abilities of artest without some baggage or explosion potential that hopefully is behind artest. second, if i have already planned as an organization to dump als contract the next year as i feel they positioned to do with the acquisition of marvin, i certainly wouldnt want to take on artest’s salary for the future as he would get in the way of player development just by playing the minutes that he does. so for those reasons i dont buy that it is so simple to make an argument that billy is or was reluctant to do the trade just because he had the opportunity. i just dont think it would have made much sense in the long run.

andy, your point is very relevant that it takes a good organization to move quickly and the most important consideration. unfortuantely i dont think that this is a very good organization and it starts at he top with the owners and the dysfunctional situation they wrought upon us all.

By HB Ando

July 31, 2006 05:48 PM | Link to this

Representing the rest of the observing planet regarding the Hawks is: Rick from Phoenix. Amazing of how obvious and clear things appear from everywhere outside Atlanta.

I remember when he showed up many months ago and laughed at folks’ discussion on whether Phoenix would have matched the offer sheet on Joe, stating (if I remember correctly) that it was pretty well a given in Phoenix that they had no intention of matching.

Rick, I look forward to you coming back after we salvage our franchise by landing in the top-3 of the draft, ultimately saved from our own incompetance by ongoing incompetance of ever-blossoming, even greater proportion. Our master plan will win out, and we will draft Oden or Noah! The Hawks’ fan will have the last laugh (we suck again, draft one of the big guys, Billy is fired and replaced by a quality GM, and we laugh till we cry about the bad years, which are comprised of nearly half of my forty on this fine spinning orb)!

By roan st

July 31, 2006 05:50 PM | Link to this

Ando, I’m pretty sure peja ended the season on the injured list. If he was so damn good then why did Indiana let him walk after giving up artest to get him. I also believe JJ is a hell of a lot better player than one dimensional peja. I agree that chandler still has a chance to be good but damnit I hate when these guys get 10 million per based solely on potential.( ala Nene). I just think they overspent in hopes of surrouding paul with the players he needs to take them somewhere. Personally I don’t like the guys they went out and got. I’m well aware of next years draft class as I have studied it pretty hard. And I agree that the worst thing that could happen is us handing over the 4-6 pick. My hope is that we get back in the draft by securing the pacers 1st pick and winning 35 games to minimize the damage of our own pick. But lets see how the offseason plays out before we throw this team over a cliff.

By honest abe

July 31, 2006 05:56 PM | Link to this

lol “rick from phoenix” = a regular blogger disguised under a different name to emphasize his points! how lame!

By Andy

July 31, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

I know far less than most on this blog—here goes nothing—the 2007 draft is the best draft in a long time—probaly the deepest when it come to big’s—If the hawks suck for 1 more year—get in the top three—with the situation will al the hawks could have 2 great/amazing picks for billy to “pick” (poorly or not)with. I don’t agree but it seems the direction of the hawks. By the end of next year the ownership thing will be over on way or the other. Then the hawks will be able to move in one direction or the other. The hawks a year from now, will have picks, a great, still very young core players—-it just seems to me thats what the owners are thinking. I hate the thought of another losing season—but in an interview with woodsen, woodsen said(speaking during last season)”playofs are not really the goal next season, this off season get two more parts and then following that off season…get the one more part then the hawks would be ready for the post season.” With the rational that the hawks would rather really suck than just be “in” the playoffs—-I think they will do what they have to to make sure they really suck. (ie tony delk)I think the scheldon williams draft pick is part of the plan—why they took marvin last year with the eye on him to really contribute 3 years down the road. I think the hawks sense their is a mikael jordan the hawks want to build around or something in the draft for 2007. This is my guess as to why this “craziness” is happening. I think regardless of weither or not anyone agrees. I do think the hawks have a plan and are sticking to it—to the best of thier abilties regarding the ownership situation. MOST WOULD NOT AGREE—I agree with then non-agreement. However, I do fell hope for the hawks and a willingness to see what would happen if they ever were given a chance to implament there “evil” plan. Thats my guess. I don’t think these men are sitting around without a desire or intellengence to do things for the hawks—-owners included.

By The Flash

July 31, 2006 05:58 PM | Link to this

All this talk about N.O.’s and how much they’ve improved is starting to ruin my laid back mood. See, N.O.’s is really Oklahoma City, which, in addition to selling out all the time, is real close to Arkansas. I’m starting to see Paul’s talk about JJ in a different light. And, JJ’s interview about the need to get another big and get off to a good start, well, seems to me the meter might be running.

Sorry to be ruining everybody’s day, but hey, you guys started the whole thing.

By roan st

July 31, 2006 06:00 PM | Link to this

Wow. Rick knows that were getting nothing back for harrington when a deal has yet to be announced. He also knows that our record will be worst than last season. Hey rick, who will win the super bowl next year.

By roan st

July 31, 2006 06:03 PM | Link to this

Wow. Rick knows that were getting nothing back for harrington when a deal has yet to be announced. He also knows that our record will be worst than last season. Hey rick, who will win the super bowl next year.

By douglasville

July 31, 2006 06:04 PM | Link to this

where is brian oliver and kenny anderson bring in dennis scott why didn’t the hawks go after alonso mourning

By doc

July 31, 2006 06:08 PM | Link to this

andy, if they do better than expected then we win the suns dont get what rick so quickly thinks they will. if they perform as you expect and possibly desire then we win as well as we hold onto the draft pick another year.

personally, i choose to be positive about these guys. i liked what i saw that they were willing to give last year and i like their character. being the lowest payroll and the youngest team in the league means it will be a tough road and against great odds for them, but again i hope for the best. sad, you arent among this group and enjoy the expectation of their failure as your cynicism reveals. if they are successful you may have put yourself into a category that will take it personal, but you will probably get your wish and not have to be concerned.

By douglasville

July 31, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this

rick go find brian oliver kenny anderson dennis scott and alonso mourning joe johnson thats agood starting five or go to douglas ville and get allen carl tim rodney anthony to start for the hawks

By honest abe

July 31, 2006 06:12 PM | Link to this

I think one thing you should understand Ando is that most of the BK apologists don’t defend his every move. I for instance only think critcism of MOST of his moves are premature at the moment. He has only been on the job for 3 years yet people want to bust his chops about every single move. I just want to give him 5/6 years and at that point reassess what he’s done. Has he made mistakes so far? Of course he has. But, BK has had to deal with unfavorable circumstances, a very impatient local media, unrealistic fan expectations etc. yet he still just goes about his job, professionally, never making excuses, never pointing fingers, etc. I can respect that!

As for New Orleans. I don’t think they compete for a playoff spot at all. Yes they made a big splash in free agency, but you have to admit they have many question marks. I remember the year our boy Babcock assembled a team that looked fairly competitive on paper, but absolutely bombed during the season. Besides Paul, I don’t know who on that team I would be itching to acquire. David West? Maybe but he produced for one year. Let’s see him put up comparable numbers for another season before we view him as someone that will consistently put up 20+ every season. You replace pj with tyson. I dont’ see how that benefits them. tyson usually gets into foul trouble before tip off, while brown is one of the most consistent player in the league while being one of the best locker rooms guys as well. His leadership, and guidance will be missed by that team. Point being making alot of moves for the sake of making moves doesn’t necessarily improve your basketball team. I bet most of the BK detractors thought the big dogg trade was a good one. cmon fellas admit it!

By douglasville

July 31, 2006 06:19 PM | Link to this

will SOME ONE RESPOND!!!!!!!!!! TO DOUGLASVILLE COMMENTS IF YOU KNOW BASKETBALL OLD SCHOOL

By reese

July 31, 2006 06:24 PM | Link to this

I have emailed bruce levenson in the past and received responses from both he and Bernie Mullin. From that perspective I can say that they are accessible and will respond. Bruce Levenson placed his email in a blog last year and here it is. levenson@ucg.com.

Roan st., I don’t know how to make it any clearer for you. Lacsho is starting to understand that it is OK to question moves and request that we balance the roster. It doesn’t mean we hate the hawks or want to criticize the hawks.

New Orleans balanced their roster. Peja is complimentary player who is a proven all star. He has playoff experience. Although, he didn’t do to well at least he understands the intensity that one needs to play to get there.

Chandler is a complimentary player who happens to have proven that he can block shots.

There is no guessing with those two players and to top it off they compliment chris paul and West.

Now, for the hawks, Shelden is not proven and Sekou has seen him play and practice in person. I have seen him in some summer league games. The signs are that he needs time to develop. It doesn’t mean that he won’t be good, just needs time.

We have already seen Josh Smith and Marvin Williams play defense together and they do not provided the needed compliments for zaza. Woodson has already demonstrated that he won’t play batista or edwards with zaza. So where is the compliment for zaza suppose to come from.

During the summer league games Marvin scored by driving to the lane and getting fouled or he was taking jumpers. He did not post against other power forwards/centers.

I’m not sure what Josh Smith is practicing in the summer league, but I bet its not posting against bigger players.

That leaves training camp and practices for both Josh and marvin to play against bigger players. Well guess what, those bigger players will be batista and edwards. Do you think that playing against those two is representative of playing against the likes of Dwight Howard, Etan Thomas, Sean May and Udonis Haslim in our division. Then, there is Duncan, Garnett, Rasheed, Randolph, Nowitski, Brand and others who excel at the 4 spot for other teams.

Also, add me to the list that thinks that the Knicks will make the playoffs. I think that Isaiah will play a style that suits the players instead of larry brown’s approach of trying to make the players adapt to his style. Not to mention that New York has all stars, balanced roster, players who play with intensity and hopefully some trade bait when the AL to Indiana deal falls through (Steve Francis anyone)

By Rick in Phoenix

July 31, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this

Guys, blast me if you must. I am not anyone posing as anyone. I am a 10 year season ticket holder of the Suns who found this newspaper last year when I was trying to figure out what was taking the JJ trade so long to work out. I was actually disappointed when he didn’t sign with us. As far as Phoenix not matching, it wasn’t the given that most thought it would be. However, I wouldn’t trade Diaw for JJ staright up now as Diaw is becoming a huge threat and perfect for our offense. The 1st round pick makes this deal so lopsided that it is almost funny.

Now, back to your beloved Hawks. How have they improved from last year? Speedy Claxton?? A couple of rookies??? Marvin taking charge in the summer league against a bunch of guys who aren’t good enough to play in the CBA??? What have they done? They are going to get nothing for a guy who was the most marketable player on your roster last year. You will get a draft pick that will be in the bottom 10 of the league from Indy and no good player to take his place. How are they better????

By big tone

July 31, 2006 06:43 PM | Link to this

the hawks are positioning themselves for a bottom three finish, to try and retain the draft pick(lottery protected)from the phoenix suns ,but like hawks lotteries ,from years of experience the ping pongs wont bounce their way.

By Samuel

July 31, 2006 07:18 PM | Link to this

Reese,

That’s an excellent point about practice competition. That is one of the reasons that last year I called for at least getting a cheap veteran big or two on this team. Even if they are over the hill, ie..Elden Campbell, Jahadi White, Tractor Trailor. At least the young players would have someone who knows what it takes and can battle in practice. How the heck can John Edwards, E. Batista, S. Jones and that other scrubb they picked up last year that didn’t even smell the floor, do anything to challenge Marvin,Josh, or Sheldon and make them better.

By jhan

July 31, 2006 07:22 PM | Link to this

Nice to see such passion around here! If only the owners & management would show half as much this whole debacle would be easier to stomach. I don’t see anything really improving until the ownership fight is over. I agree with the Arthur Blank as owner movement (or someone like him).

By CJ

July 31, 2006 07:43 PM | Link to this

I’ll never forget when Darko was hanging out there for nothing….the Hawks needed a big man….and they basically “cut” Tony Delk when Detroit immediatley scooped him up. It would’ve been a no risk trade Darko/Delk. That told me there(in addition to botching the Al Harrington trade) that the Hawks management has no foresight and every trade or signing will be a long and drawn out task that this team can’t sustain in the long run.

By honest_abe

July 31, 2006 07:44 PM | Link to this

how did the hawks get better? i guess if you think all the hawks players have reached their ceiling then yes your point has some validity. i don’t think that’s the case. the hawks had the youngest team in the league last year and most of the returning haven’t gotten close to reaching the full potential. add speedy, sheldon and possibly another big man and the hawks have considerably improved!!

By doc

July 31, 2006 07:45 PM | Link to this

reese agree, earlier yesterday i suggested if nothing else a lorenzen wright would provide a professional on the court and a good player or fodder for these guys to work with in practice.

By honest_abe

July 31, 2006 07:46 PM | Link to this

since some like to beat their chests looking back on some things they have posted. i would like to clear things up and take full credit as the first person to have suggested the darko/arroyo trade! thank you…LOL

By doc

July 31, 2006 07:48 PM | Link to this

rick, thank you for concurring with some of us that said that the suns werent that far off of the 70 mil and might bite to match. sometimes the best deals are the ones you dont make.

By HB Ando

July 31, 2006 08:05 PM | Link to this

Rick, I wasn’t kidding, I remember you showing up on either a Bradley or Moore blog about the Hawks many months ago and mirroring all my points about the JJ transaction, from the Phoenix fans’ perspective. You’re pretty much on point here. I just hope we keep our pick, and foil your smug intentions (which of course would be by default, because it’s still hard to comprehend how anyone could spend the last two+ years, “seriously” rebuilding, only to find themselves in the bottom three of the NBA, on year three).

Reese, right again, right on point. Sam, feel ya, bro! And even though I told you the Knicks would falter last year, I do believe in the motivation of failure and disrespect, so I do believe that the players and Isiah will bond, collectively, and fight like dogs (OK, Jerome James will be a dog for life) to prove to everyone that last years’ implosion was Brown’s fault, and not theirs. Don’t know if they’ll grab the eighth seed or not, but I’m pretty sure they’ll have a better record than the Hawks.

Abe, nice to see you return (were you on self-imposed time out?), but you seem rusty. How do you validate speaking for most “BK apologists”? And how do you figure that a team that went from 18 to 38 wins, and added Chandler, Peja, Jackson, Armstrong and Simmons, while subtracting a 38 year PJ Brown, who already publicly stated he would likely retire at the end of this next season, doesn’t improve. Have you not read the summer reports of Paul’s rapidly evolving greatness? Did you not read between the lines of JJ’s comments on playing with Paul on the national team? Are you so rigid in your support of BK that you just can’t accept that we flat out passed on the best PG in a decade? And you think they won’t improve? Hmm, OK, Abe. It will take you 1-2 weeks of rock solid input to regain whatever credibility you had here. You almost had us convinced that you didn’t work for the Hawks. So much for that ploy. I sure hope Billy gets you a job offer when he’s hired as a scout for Yakima. Please drink two RedBulls, work up your version of an “A” game, and try again in the morning.

By HB Ando

July 31, 2006 08:11 PM | Link to this

BTW, Abe, I suggested, via e-mail, that the Hawks seek to obtain the under-utilized Darko/Arroyo combo before last summers’ draft. At the time I suggested that they offer up Diaw, since it was clear that Woody didn’t like him and he was going to languish behind Chilz and Smoove. If you’d like me to cut and paste the e-mail, I’d be glad too (I never throw anything out). Don’t hurt your arm patting yourself on the back for being a day late and a dollar short………..

Doc, don’t you ever get tired of playing “Let the Sun Shine In”? It was a really neat song 40 years ago, but jeez…….

By Astro Joe

July 31, 2006 08:12 PM | Link to this

There is one very simple reason that I point blame first and foremost to the owners. Is there anyone on this blog, who thinks that we can hire a world-class NBA GM tomorrow?

We have a team with young talent, a ton of salary cap room, a market that loves the NBA and an outstanding basketball arena. All of that, and I ask again, do any of you think that we can hire a world-class GM tomorrow?

Saying that BK has made numerous mistakes is fairly obvious. I think only 1 GM each year gets to say defiantly to every fan and critic, “I told you so”. I said during the mid-season mark last year that we needed to get to 35-38 wins during the 06-07 campaign. If we sign Wright or Cato, I think we can achieve that. We wil have a balanced squad that is at least 2 deep at every position. We would have a decent mix of young and experienced, role players and wannabe stars. Projects and production. We’d have virtually every functional need met except low-post scoring, which many teams lack these days and is not required to take the next step toward respectability. I would have built this team differently, but that does not guarantee that I would have been right. And I also do not know that I would make the same decisions if I were armed with BK’s information as I do when I only have access to blogs and “insider” information. I mean, if you had witnessed the death of Jason Collier and its impact on the team, would you draft a player whose heart is on the wrong side of his chest? If that player does much of the same things that JJ and Salim do, I think I would take a pass myself.

Anyway, I submit that blaming BK is akin to yelling at the rain. If the owners want to fire him they can. If they can’t find anyone to hire, then we’re stuck with him. So what’s the point of yelling at the rain? Go Hawks! Despite your inferior owners.

By CJ

July 31, 2006 08:16 PM | Link to this

I don’t mean to be harsh…but the problem with the attitude with some of the Atlanta residents and “BK apologists” is that every critical statement is viewed as an attack on the Hawks team. I’ve been a Hawks fan all my life and I know other fans..I feel sorry for’em when I see them take their sons to games and every move or trade that has been made brings a sigh to their face(mine too). These clowns just are not competent, and anything otherwise is just accepting mediocrity and subpar performance. I refuse to do that. I want to see tangeable ‘basketball sense’ improvements not just..oh he’s playing a little better give it time. A little truth and honesty would’ve prevented this whole mess in the first place.

By honest_abe

July 31, 2006 08:21 PM | Link to this

heh :) nothing like being welcomed back like a true ando thrashing. by that same line of thinking, automatically assuming that paul’s progression is going to really improve that NO ‘s team you have to go both ways and say that the young up and coming hawk’s are really going to make this team better. i will stand by my statement that NO will not vie for a playoff spot. there are just too many teams that i think are better than them such as both la teams, suns, mavs, spurs, denver, houston(if yao and tmac stay healthy), memphis.. i would list some more teams i thought were better but i think i’ll just take some more verbal assaults if i do. the additions of armstrong and collins are not going to be so considerable as to improve their win total. a lot of western teams had down years last year, due to injury and other factors which allowed the hornets to overachieve. I don’t think they win as many games as they did last year.

i take back speaking for all of the bk apolgists. i guess i tried to make my statement have a little more weight:) but people that do look at the situation as objectively as they can, will concede that there were some things that bk might/could have done that might have put the hawks in a better position to suceed. however, i just take the stance that we can’t see/understand bk’s vision for this franchise, add the ownership struggles and we should realistically expect to be in the playoffs in year 5/6.

i’m going to drink 3 red bulls tomorrow :P

By clyde

July 31, 2006 08:24 PM | Link to this

Sekou:

I feel you with the blame game thing but things are messed up with the Hawks. Just like you said it’s twisted. You said “The push now needs to be for solutions to this problem. How do the Hawks get past all this and back into the realm of the relevant? But don’t get anything I write twisted, I don’t care to assign blame here or really think it’s remotely close to reasonable to dedicate anyone in this mess the lone culprit. I think mistakes and miscalculations were made all around.”

Here is my solution to fix the problem. Fire the guy who is making all the major decisions involving this franchise. When your leading a group of people the leader has to make quality decisions. And all of us know that you can’t move forward if your leader keeps messing up. The Hawks have to get their Head right if they are to move forward and win a championship.

FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By HB Ando

July 31, 2006 08:24 PM | Link to this

CJ, true ‘dat!

Joe, as I’ve said before, if there’s any reason to side with Belkin, maybe the only reason, it’s the idea that he can bring in a competent GM, whose credibility within the league is well established. Blame Billy, blame the Spirit, but the end result is that this team is viewed as a joke throughout the league. Sometimes the value of the perception of change is in creating the opportunity for others to give you credit, and to treat you, as if change has occurred. I think this franchise needs to have an image makeover, and I don’t think that’s possible as long as Billy and the Spirit are running the show (regardless of whether the Spirit deserve additional time, from an objective standpoint). Is Belkin going to be a better owner? No idea. Will Belkin bringing in a fresh management team, with some level of public commitment to funding a winner (even if it’s not truly a differend cap commitment than his former partners), lend itself to the franchise being treated differently by the other franchises in trade talks and the like? I surmise that perception is stronger than reality, and the perception of change gives us a chance to establish a new identity within the league.

By honest_abe

July 31, 2006 08:25 PM | Link to this

oh ya, one last thing ando…actually i thought about that idea right before you wrote that e-mail..haha

By ray

July 31, 2006 08:30 PM | Link to this

samuel,

didn’t mean to call you crazy, but the knicks are not going to make the playoffs(in my opinion). i’ll take joe, marvin, and mr. smith and beat that conglomeration of overpaid psuedo all stars anyday. we might not play defense, but we’ll run all day. do the knicks have a center? balance? point guard(marbury is not a point i.e. the olympics), two guard, small forward, everyone of the knicks players are playing out of position? isiah thomas? great player don’t get me wrong, but a terrible coach and general manager(in my opinion). i’ve enjoyed reading all of the comments, i think if this group of informants owned the hawks, we might make a run.

By honest_abe

July 31, 2006 08:33 PM | Link to this

agreed ray. bunch of selfish superstars who have no ambitions of playing any defense. if larry brown couldn’t get this bunch to play any d then i dont’ see how in the world isiah is going to accomplish that feat. the knicks will be able to score but should be right in line with portland for the greg oden lottery.

By CJ

July 31, 2006 08:37 PM | Link to this

Well the blog is one part..but I think the AJC hasn’t done enough to hold people accountable. If I was a writer and it’s obvious something is wrong..you print it in bold print and but the pressure on those responsible to fix it. Public dollars pour into these teams so the public has a say so when something fishy occurs. That’s a part of what I was talking about when I was talking about the mindset of some ATL residents. Who cares if you get called a pessimist..the truth is the truth.

By reese

July 31, 2006 08:45 PM | Link to this

Doc, I just did not like Lorenzen’s game when he played for Atlanta. As a big man, he did not block shots and was a poor rebounder. PLus, he did not have a good shot down low, nor did he have nice touch away from the basket.

The comment I remember most about Lorenzon came from his grandfather or father. It was something like “Lorenzon thinks that he is better than he is. He needs to buckle down and play harder”.

Now, he playing with a more talented team and he doesn’t seem to have improved IMO.

Also, I just saw your post from earlier in response to my example of a trade that billy could have made. Like I said last year and in a post from last week. You don’t make that move by itself. You have to pick players like Josh Childress and Marvin williams and use them as trade bait to acquire the pieces that would compliment Artest (i.e. steve francis, magloire, steven hunter).

I know that the salary cap is 53 mil, however, the luxery tax threshhold is 64.5 million. So to me it seems like the max is really 64.499 mil. I know that the current ownership group would never spend anywhere close to that amount. But it seems that once we get this ownership thing resolved, there is room to spend over the salary cap and several teams are doing so. Who am I kidding, I dreaming with this last paragraph. I would erase it but I’m too lazy.

By HUlaw94

July 31, 2006 09:19 PM | Link to this

Everyone dogs Billy Knight, but what has he done as a GM that has been so terrible.

1) He dumped a ton of horrible players and even worse contracts.

2) He drafted Josh Smith, who everyone said was a reach and Bilas called the most likely to be a bust. Uh….WRONG.

3) He drafted Josh Childress who is probably the 2nd most complete player on the team (JJ being the first). Folks don’t appreciate his game and I have no explanation why.

4) He drafted Marvin. Woddy was smart enough to ease him into the league and not throw him out there and let him get his confidence crushed. By the end of the season he looked REAL GOOD. He destroyed them in the summer league and folks only wanted to talk about how Sheldon didn’t look good. Go figure.

5) He picked up ZaZa who despite his defensive shortcomings is a pretty good scorer and rebounder.

6) Folks are crying about Chris Paul, but if you look at PGs over the course of the last few season, PGs with less than 3 years of experience rarely took their team to the playoffs. And in the few instances where they did, they were more of a combo guard than a true PG.

Also, a PG is a lot like a WR, they rarely blossom when they’re either playing in their initial contract or with their first team. The position takes time. If Marvin stays healthy, we will clearly see that Knight made the right choice.

7) The Hawks have the youngest team in the NBA. They have a bunch of players who did not play even 2 years in college (JJ, Marvin, Josh Smith, ZaZa and Al). That means learning on the job. And if you’ve noticed, it takes those guys about 4-5 years for their game to come around. JJ was considered a bust and now he’s on the US Olympic team. Al was also considered a bust, but around year 5 he started to come around.

Entering next season, if you remove Speedy (5 years), JJ (5 years) and Lue (8 years) the remaining 12 players on the roster will have a total of 17 years of playing experience. Most playoff teams have more than that in their starting 5.

Folks, this is a TRUE rebuilding process. If you know basketball and appreciate it, then you have to acknowledge that this will be the year where they move to respectability and next season they should be in contention for a playoff spot. Playoffs this year will only be a bonus.

Mike Woodson has the most difficult coaching job in the NBA ‘cause he’s coaching for an ownership group that’s a mess. He’s in a city whose media doesn’t care about the team. Also, most of the clowns don’t KNOW basketball so all they do is re-hash whatever they hear on ESPN. (SS you are the exception, not the rule). He’s got to teach some of his contributing players how to actually play basketball within the team concept while also trying to win games at the NBA level. And he’s on an unrealistic timetable to win.

I’m still going to support BK, Woody and the Hawks.

By Grant aka Midnight

July 31, 2006 09:47 PM | Link to this

Hulaw94 that was an excellent post. Its about time that people start speaking the truth around here. The fact of the matter is that he is doing a solid job so far in rebuilding this team with a lot of nice young pieces. People need to remember that sometimes the best trade is the one not made at all. Just think were we would be if we had are money tied up in Eric Dampier for 4 more year or Kenyon Martin who is always injured. Give Billy the time he needs and I promise you it will be worthwhile.

By honest_abe

July 31, 2006 09:54 PM | Link to this

thanks for the essay, please tell us something we don’t know! i mean “I”

By CJ

July 31, 2006 09:56 PM | Link to this

HUlaw94 you’ve just pretty much given credit to BK for things that are no brainers every GM is supposed to do. You draft high year after year you are going to get SOME good players now and then. Also..this team is young but that is an issue that should’ve been resolved as well by having competent veterans or atleast players to fill the holes long ago through trade/signings. You seem to be basing your analysis off the chance that every personnel move didn’t fall flat on it’s face. Realistically that isn’t going to happen…BK is under fire for inaction and a general lack of savy when aquiring new players. Tons of missed opportunities the Hawks deserved to have but didn’t get. What do you think of Al Harrington being traded for draft pick and cash. A pick that essentially was given needlessly in the PHX trade. Well I know what you will prob say my friend, wait and see…. well Hawks have been out of the playoffs a long time, that is alot of waiting and seeing.

By Get Better

July 31, 2006 10:00 PM | Link to this

HUlaw94 makes valid points. BK is no Pete Babcock, Isiah Thomas, Dave Checkets etc.! While he has “ZERO” (or even negative) charisma you cannot deny that he can judge talent and is willing to draft by “his” principals/priorities. (BTW with the rules changes - the league is moving toward BK’s vision of long athletic players.)

That said — WHY would BK want to complete a sign and trade with Indiana for only a draft choice and cash? The reported $3-4M will not make a material difference in the long run…. cash strapped or not!

The Hawks would be better off in both the short-mid-long term by acquiring a Jeff Foster or David Harrison instead of the $3-4M. Either one of these guys makes the Hawks stronger at the 4/5.

Sekou - what are your thoughts on this angle???

By jbrownjib

July 31, 2006 10:10 PM | Link to this

I am glad that Knight is a patient negotiator. The first to deal is sometimes a fool.Tthese young guys will be a better team because they will have more experience, strength, and rhythem. The urgency is more on Indiana than the Hawks because Harrison will need to gel into a new system. The deal will get done but I don’t see the rush to do anything imprudent.

By Get Better

July 31, 2006 10:22 PM | Link to this

A couple more thoughts… 1) David Harrison or Jeff Foster would be a better addition than L. Wright. Both are more productive at this point in their careers and would not bring the “baggage” that Wright would. (Don’t believe me - check the Memphis police blotter.) 2) To CJ’s point - no denying that BK blinked on the Joe Johnson signing; that said if he didn’t would PHO have pulled a sign and trade with another team instead of ATL? If BK had kept the 21st pick ATL could have netted Marcus Williams or Rajun Rondo and have a bonafide PG in training instead of Ivey.

By Sekou Smith

July 31, 2006 10:24 PM | Link to this

Get Better,

I stated a while back here that I was in favor of getting players in return for Al. Some people don’t think Jeff Foster is an upgrade over what the Hawks already have. I disagree. I also know that David Harrison isn’t a part of any proposed deal, so he’s not even a consideration. But Foster would have been nice.

But I’m not sure what becomes of this deal from here on out. I can see some seismic shift in this entire drama coming in the next few days. I mean, how long can anyone expect Al Harrington to deal with the waiting before he gets fed up and decides to pursue another course of action?

What that course of action might be remains a mystery even to me. But I can see things changing now that we are a solid month into this process without any resolution. And who could blame him for growing weary of this prolonged process?

Once again, I’ve never called names on this board and I won’t start now. So all this Billy Knight bashing or specific owner bashing is pointless. What’s done is done people, good and bad, right and wrong. Sticking it on the grill day after day doesn’t change anything. I realize it’s that retro-analysis is the only rational way for us all to discuss this stuff and that’s why I’m here now. But seriously, for every “wrong” move someone can claim Billy Knight has made someone can counter that with what they claim to be a “right” move. And trying to convince each other to jump to the other side is really a fruitless endeavor at this stage of the game.

Like I wrote earlier, mistakes have been made all around. And they proof will be results we can actually see on the floor and in the win-loss column. If the Hawks climb into playoff contention this season (against all odds some might say), then roasting someone for moves made and not made becomes a moot point. And if they struggle to another bottom five finish, heads will roll and no one has to worry about pointing any fingers.

In this case, the judge and jury is an 82-game season that will highlight the hits and misses of any and all the people who have decision-making power where this team is concerned. That’s the one thing about sports that never changes.

By HULaw94

July 31, 2006 10:30 PM | Link to this

By CJ - HUlaw94 you’ve just pretty much given credit to BK for things that are no brainers every GM is supposed to do. You draft high year after year you are going to get SOME good players now and then. Also..this team is young but that is an issue that should’ve been resolved as well by having competent veterans or atleast players to fill the holes long ago through trade/signings. You seem to be basing your analysis off the chance that every personnel move didn’t fall flat on it’s face.

CJ, if it’s so easy then why doesn’t the league have consistent movement with bad teams becoming better using this formula. In fact, it’s generally quite the contrary. It is diffucult to build a team in the NBA via the draft, because it normally takes the players longer than their first contract to get acclimated to the lague and then become major contributors. Especially guys who played less than 3 years of college.

The Hawks under BK have made a GIANT leap in all of the major categories: salary dump, drafting players who are NBA caliber starters, players are developing, not overpaying for old re-treads (see New Orleans and Peja) and actually having a plan for the type of player and styel you want.

As for the not signing players argument. We all say how difficult it was to get Joe Johnson. Hawks basketball is not exactly the first team on the radar for most nig name vets. Why not? Because of the youth factor.

Guys who’ve been in the league for 8+ years are generally not attracted to playing in a rebuilding situation ‘cause they want a ring. The Hawks are just trying to get to the playoffs.

They almost convinced Cassell because he sees where the Hawks are going. The problem is the fans are so caught up in the ownership group foolishness and the years of being bad that sometimes the forest can’t be seen because of the trees.

It doesn’t matter what Knight does, he will never be given credit for the good things and senselessly criticized for things that are initially questionable. Teh funny thing is that when the questionable things work out no one gives him credit.

Most of the media dislikes him because he won’t kiss their a**e. He’s a quite guy who won’t give them the sound bit that they want, so they dog him. I could care less about what he says. Just keep this ship moving in the right direction.

By billy

July 31, 2006 10:34 PM | Link to this

CJ - those aren’t moves every GM makes. BK has done a good job. Not a perfect job, but a solid job. Especially considering his work environment. Give me a break, how many of us would last (or stay sane) working with the Spirit and Belkin??

About the Hornets - PJ Brown is out and Chandler is in. I’d rather have Brown and I’d rather not have Chandler’s contract.

Peja will be good. I said the team will improve. But Peja will not be an all-star (yes, some of you called him an “all-star” calibar player). And he’s not worth that contract.

I’m glad the Hawks didn’t make those moves - sign Peja and trade for Chandler. I think slow and steady wins the race. We don’t need to overspend or over-give for players who are only going to bring minimal improvement.

And as for Sheldon’s 12/10/3. I believe he’s capable of 12/10 - maybe even by the end of his first year. Quote me on it next summer, if you like. The 3 blocks? I just threw it in. We all know that number of blocks recorded doesn’t equal actual number of blocks made.

By The Flash

July 31, 2006 10:35 PM | Link to this

[REPEAT FROM LAST POSTING ON LAST BLOG]

Hey, what’s all this talk about Ando Man’s being Belkin.

I thought I was supposed to be Belkin! Come on, fair is fair. I been bashed for being Belkin for months, and, now, when my theory about the giving of unnecessary picks to Phoenix was just to pick a fight with belkin apparently has been verified by one of the owners, your guys are now saying THAT SOMEONE ELSE IS BELKIN! AND, YOU EXPECT ME TO JUST STAND BY AND LET YOU DO THAT?

YOUR MAMA, is all I got to say. I ain’t Belkin. But, I’ll be damned if, after all I been through on this blog, I’m gonna let you put someone else in my seat. Not without a fight I ain’t.

By Richie Rich

July 31, 2006 10:40 PM | Link to this

This will be Billy and Woody’s last years with this franchise….So there will be no more bickering after this year, about either one of these clowns.

By Richie Rich

July 31, 2006 10:47 PM | Link to this

HUlaw94, Coach Woody’s job is difficult thanks to his best friend BK. His fascination with 6’9 players and unbalanced roster make it difficult for him……the only thing i blame the owner’s for, is listening to Billy Knight, because the owner’s no nothing about basketball, and they think that Billy does.

By doc

July 31, 2006 11:34 PM | Link to this

reese, the luxury tax seems to be working as the only teams that have exceeded it signifcantly this year is the knicks by about 50mil and the warriors, of all teams. most teams have stayed under it this year whereas last year very few teams were under it. the hawks appear to be holding the line at the minmum for whatever reason but they are a long time coming for beginning to spend to it based on their actions last year and this. there is still no excuse or logic to have not found a big last year once we tragically lost collier beside shtye werent going to spend anything more. many have made that point, say what you want it still had to do with money not anything else as their legal troubles mounted. reese i also cant argue the value of lorenzen and dont intend to except the price is right and he fits the bill to give some down time to zaza who was very overutilized last year. i dont think he is a superstar or a guy who will take this team to the next level but as your last paragraph allludes to very accurately the hawks wont get there at the present rate of spending no matter who is gm.

yeah andy, silly me, i have learned, how to react is to make a choice and i assure you from a health standpoint if nothing else to react negatively only affects the one with the negative vibration. i still am a bit surprised you cant drop the schtich, which is what it is, your blog personna, and be a little more positive about the upcoming year as billy has just about gotten what we had discussed they needed, what they require to move forward and still stay within the budget as tough as that is to accept on your part or accomplish an billy’s part. that is your decision. we all asked for a point and two bigs two months ago. i dont know if anyone could come up with what he has in a superstar and two young growing guns and three to four very capable role players as has been done and still stay at the minimum and pick up a few in free agency and the draft to boot. no other gm has that requirement, simple fact. yes, it doesnt build championship teams but this organization isnt interested in that this year. it is about financial issues, to sum it up, you know that, you are not dense.

By ray

July 31, 2006 11:46 PM | Link to this

Samuel,

It appears that I’ve been replicated. I don’t know who this other “ray” guy is that keeps saying the Knicks won’t make the playoffs, but it’s not me. I know the Knicks were horrible last year. They had a very talented roster comprised of probably only two or three players Larry Brown liked. That was part of the problem. I think Isaiah may do better simply because he has Marbury on his side, which means the floor leader is in tune with the coach. This means Marbury could make his teammates better, thus a winning situation. Well, that’s a simplistic way of putting it and we know it’s not always that simple, but it’s a start. And you have to admit, when the floor leader is on the same page as the coach, it nearly always makes things better. As for the Knicks not having a center of sorts, I guess somebody forgot about Curry, Frye, and James. All three are better than anything we have on the Hawks roster (when James has his head in the game). Face it, even in a time of upheaval, the Knicks are still better than us. They may have a lot of petulant players, but they’re deeper and far more balanced. Again, with Marbury motivated and happy, lots of good things can happen in Madison Square Garden.

ray, whoever you are, I have a humble request. Since I’ve been hangin’ around here a long time and using the name ray (it is my real name, the one everyone I know calls me), could you use something different like “ray” in capital letters or maybe “ray 2” or something like that? I would appreciate it. After all, you make points that I disagree with and people most likely think I’m you or vice versa. I noticed it when you made comments about the Knicks that I wouldn’t have made. I already gave Sam a hard time about that team, but I also agree with him on several things there. Thanks in advance, man.

Sekou,

You’re right about the blame game. But some people don’t want to let go.

Ando, you’ve made very good arguments about BK’s moves. So have many others here, too many to mention. I’ll tell you this: I think we need a better gm, and I won’t say why because I don’t feel like arguing the point with anybody. If he stays and the organization ends up successful, then great. If not, then hopefully we get a better one here real soon. Until something happens with ownership ( a new owner or Belkin wins) then we are likely stuck with him. What baffles me about YOU is why you feel the need to continue your argument about the guy? Don’t you see that some people are just NOT going to agree with you and you CANNOT change that? I’m asking you this because it seems to cause you a great deal of stress. I realize you might just be blowing off your frustrated steam due to your passion for this team and all the ins and outs thereof, but dude….don’t let people who choose to be not entirely of like mind with you get you all wrapped around the axle. I know you’re trying hard to be truly objective and not 100% anti-BK, (well maybe…heh, heh). I also know that with more knowledge comes more frustration due to the simple fact that the more you know about basketball and basketball business, the more mistakes you can see being made. Trust me, I don’t write like you do, but I’m hold back a lot and I can see where you’re coming from. Having said that, I think you’re well-founded frustration with the organization bleeds over to your fellow fans/bloggers. You disagree with the ownership/management, and that makes plenty of sense, given the fact that they actually are making all of the decisions. But disagreeing with fans…what can be said, we have no control here. So why get so frustrated with other fans? Let me try another tactic here. If everyone agreed with you on your assessment of BK’s performance, would it change the fact that BK is the gm or that the Spirit are currently owners? NO. Nor would it change the fact that they are not doing a good job (there I go with my half-cent opinion again). Conversely, if no one agreed with you or saw things from your point of view, it still would not change things in reality as far as how this organization is run. You say that people are giving you excuses for Knight. So what? If you’re confident in your position, and I have no doubts that you are, then the repeated statements to the contrary of your beliefs should not bother you in the least. Hell, I wouldn’t even reply to it. Why? Because they have no physical bearing on the reality of this situation. As far as I can see, you haven’t managed to convince one single person that previously disagreed with you on the issue of our current gm. This *does not * constitute a failure on your part. It also does not mean that people who don’t agree completely with your point of view are ignorant or stupid (not that you’ve made that implication). If ignorance is bliss, then somewhere in some place…we all have a little bliss. I hope that you are not taking this as me taking you to task, that’s not how it’s meant. I merely hope to add some clarity or perspective to the existing passion.

By doc

July 31, 2006 11:51 PM | Link to this

rick from phoenix, it seems most overlooked your point that it wasnt a done deal that the suns would not go ahead and match the 70 mil for jj. funny how some who want to see only one way will ignore what is out there to see and read embellishing only what they want to see. for some reason i am a suns fan for many years in addition to the hawks. i was in phoenix for a conference during the western finals in 2005 and saw how important jj was to the team as he fought hard to come back from his injury and help the suns overcome their deficit. i read the phoenix papers then and referred back to them frequently as the deal went through. from what i read which you confirmed it wasnt a done deal until after the offer had been made and jj had told them he didnt want to come back if he had his way. even then it might have been posturing but it doesnt matter as ultimately it turned out well for both teams as the hawks would be coming off a year of maybe single digit wins without jj rather than one with some prospects of improving with jj as our main stay and you have diaw to enjoy. the funny thing is you probably could have had both jj and diaw if you had waited and matched as diaw would have been dropped by the hawks organization within weeks.

good luck to the suns this year and i will follow closely.

By ray

July 31, 2006 11:57 PM | Link to this

As for NO/OK, we can criticize those moves all day and all night. But they are more balanced than we are. Also, Chris Paul has what even some superstars don’t have: the ability to make those around him better. So while the moves may not seem so sound, you’re short-selling a guy who can get these other guys the ball right when and where they really need it. And they are veterans with a solid coach who can teach them to play their roles effectively. I couldn’t say how good they’ll be, but with good team health, Paul producing like only he can, and good coaching, they’ll be tough night in and night out.

The Hawks team is not as balanced as it could be, should be, etc. We’ll have to see what other moves are made, if any, and see how we make it along with what we have. For the record, Shelden can be a good player. But all players his height at his position have to work very hard to be successful. Doesn’t matter if they are superstars (Barkley), stars (Elton Brand, Ben Wallace) or just tough guys off the bench (Danny Fortson, Malik Rose). It’s hard work all the way, all the time. Usually, with these guys the difference is talent, pure and simple. But the recurring theme is hard work. If Shelden can do that, he’s a success, even if not worthy of a #5 pick. The draft is over folks, it’s put up or shut up time soon.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 12:02 AM | Link to this

Damn you, Flash, I’m Belkin!

It’s funny to concurrently contemplate Sekous’s recent suggestion that this blog is much more frequented by people of relative import than us regulars might imagine. So, I have to chuckle when the heat on ownership and Billy gets cranked up a few notchs, and, “Presto”, out of no where, come a flurry of names we do not recognize, offering psuedo-analysis of why Billy Knight is a mis-judged genius, who’s critics. lacking any type of true basketball insight have unfairly targeted for slings and arrows. Oddly, I’ve yet to run across, in my sadly persistent endeavors, any similar, and literate, support for his performance, any where outside of this local blog. In fact, there is no national media source, who’s focus is on the NBA, nor any accumulated series of comments from local beat writers, like Sekou, from other NBA town, who is the least bit positive about the management of the Atlanta Hawks. I read, far and wide, in search of anyone who follows the NBA, for a living, who might offer solid support of Billy Knight, and all I find, talking heads, shaking ruefully, regarding the direction, or lack there of, of this franchise.

Yet here, oddly, semi-literate folks folks are given to showing up, and offering undying praise for repeated failure, and I, cynic that I am, cannot help but believe that a solid, representative portion of the Hawks’ staff, and/or marketing department, have arrived, in an obvious attempt to offer opaque efforts to spin pro-Billy, for the sake of selling tickets.

Here’s a better strategy for Hawks’ marketers: tell your owners that there is no defending Billy’s ridiculous performance, and if winning back the fans is really important, replace him with someone competent, act like Jimmy Swaggart and admit you’ve failed your congregation, and ask for our forgiveness. People love an honest, tear-filled mea culpa. But if you continue to act like the emporer’s new clothes are the bomb, when a fat-a*s, old white guy is parading around naked, you abandon all hope, ye who enters here. Even if Billy is half a scapegoat, scapegoats have worked in professional sports for 50 years. Why does everyone involved with the Spirit feel like they’ve got a patent on reinventing the wheel of professional sports’ success?!

Can the clown and find someone with a viable pedigree, and the ability to manage public relations beyond the average skill level of a spoiled 6-year old. If the guy was above reproach, I’d say, “no biggie”. He’s not, and this franchise, over and above its record of repeated failure, most of which isn’t the fault of Billy or the Spirit, needs to find a way to reach out to the average fan, who doesn’t differentiate between Billy and Babcock, but only knows this team has sucked forever.

Instead of finding ways to canonize Billy Knight, why isn’t some effort put into finding a way to engage the potential fans of Atlanta? George Steinbrenner fired Billy Martin five times, all in the name of world championships, so why is it so hard to imagine the value of firing a GM who hasn’t shown much brilliance at all? Why is it solid strategy to maintain a guy who’s performance is found lacking by almost everyone who follows the NBA on a national level?

These franchises don’t exist in a vacuum. Most “fans” never give 5% of the time and thought to this situation that the junkie’s here do. I can make 20 strands out of one split end here, but in the end, folks like us represent 1% of the potential fan base. People like to associate with a winner. We’ll lose again this year, and the oweners, whoever they end up being, will lose serious cash. Start acknowledging the power of public perception and make changes that speak to the other 99% of the potential fan base. They don’t know squat about basketball anyway, but if you win some games, and put an exciting team on the floor, they’ll forgive years of failure (see the Atlanta Falcons after Blank purchased the team).

Sacrifice Billy Knight for the good of the franchise. It’s a righteous fire, and an opportunity to get this right, for once.

BTW, does anyone else like fried lobster tail? Little Fish Market tonight and I have a belly full.

You know if anyone ever asked me to offer the flip side of my hardened opinion, just to see what it sounded like, I’d knock out a doozy for you folks. It’s not like I’ve got my existence tied to this position. I just haven’t been given any compelling reason to back off the gas……………

By doc

August 1, 2006 12:17 AM | Link to this

as i said andy, it is your schtick, your blog personna. so i cant take it too seriously or certainly not personally. good night my firend with your belly full of more than fried lobster i presume.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 12:36 AM | Link to this

Two things happened when I walked away from my last post: I had an epiphany that I thought was worth offering up, and I then read Ray’s comments to me, which seem even more relevant when placed in the context of my epiphany.

So here it is.

I’ve never, ever, in the full year that we’ve been doing this blog, sat down at my computer with a modicum of intent to write a critical post that’s primary intent is to impugn Billy Knight. In fact, I sit down to read what everyone else has said since my last post, and then let my response come as honestly as it can. Problem is that everytime I attend, to catch up with the congregation that is our blog, someone has told us again that Billy is really good. And, though it may sound like I’m obsessed, it’s just another immediate response, stream of consiousness (not to be confused with conscience-ness).

Look, my mother taught creative writing for 30 years, doctorate in Enlish Literature, and the truth is, I like playing with words almost as much as I like talking about basketball. Put the two together and you’ll get a smattering of self-indulgence. I like hearing myself talk and I like reading my words.

So Ray, it’s all good. I don’t feel nearly as intense as I sound. I know that Doc knows this, because we’ve had these talks in person. I know Sekou knows this because we have very reasonable exchanges via e-mail. The blog is a forum, but it’s also, very much, a stage. It’s dramatics and contention. It’s sports, which truly are the male’s excuse to engage in soap opera-esque histrionics, without acting like a woman. There’s definitely some steam, emanating from ears and other skull-related orifices, but more than anything, this place is what doc has called the “liar’s table”, a place where the stories and opinions are bigger than life itself.

Come tomorrow, the next day, and for the indefinite future, I’ll come over the top, insistently and repeatedly. But we’re just talking a little trash here. How good is it that we can discuss something we all clearly love, like hoops, and disagree, and argue, without even the hint of violence? This is such a safe place to blow off a little steam. In the end, nothing would make me happier than a winner here in Atlanta. Man, if you can’t see that I could never show up here day after day, month after month, now heading into a second year, if I didn’t just LOVE basketball, if we all didn’t just love basketball, then I’ve caused you to miss my forest for my trees.

See my attitude as the scorned lover, who’s fixated on not being hurt again. I’m not really interested in hating, I just find an exhaustive analysis coming to the same conclusion, over and over and over again. I’m not going to stop being critical until I see this thing moving in a direction that makes sense to me. I don’t want to turn off potential Hawks’ fans. But, short of an early season run that says the playoffs are a real possibility, I’ll maintain that our best outcome for next year is to fail miserably and maintain a top-3 pick. I’ve waited a long time for a quality product, and I can wait one more year to get a franchise big man and go from there. We’re not going to be a winner next year, so why not “fail our way to success”?

By lacsho

August 1, 2006 12:57 AM | Link to this

Man I love this dialogue on this Blog

SS Nuff respect…It’s really good to see you on the blog, and the fans really appreciate the way you report on the Hawks. I think you’re objective, honest and fair…I don’t always agree with you, but that’s on rare occasions….

With that being said lets focus on reality…I think the majority of the faithful bloggers agree that our ownership and management are very suspect, but we can not change anything from the past…However, with myself being rather new to the blog, I know you must have the structure to back up your argument, so therefore the past will always be prevalent in most arguments….No matter what anyone says the backbone to any franchise is the fans.We have the power to shut down any sports team in this city. Somebody better recognize. I think the fans would be content with a .500 season next year, but I can’t take another 26-56 season. The season will tell the true story, but there are a lot of thorough gm’s in the league with proven records. Although the majority of the great gm’s had great ownership, I guest they go hand in hand..

Peace!!!!!!

By lacsho

August 1, 2006 01:02 AM | Link to this

Ando you are on fire tonight…LoL

By CJ

August 1, 2006 02:17 AM | Link to this

Wow…Ando is you aren’t a sportswriter you should seriously submit some columns to one the major websites or start up your own blog.

By CJ

August 1, 2006 02:33 AM | Link to this

Oh I forgot..hey that “conspiracy theory” about the new blog posters makes sense. If I were a staffer I would no doubt order someone to get out the talking points given the fact this is a sponsored blog of AJC. I’ll give them a benefit of the doubt though and assume they are ‘real’ posts though. Hey I see the where the Hawks have improved, but in comparison with the rest of the leauge we can only say we are better than a few bottom feeders. It just doesn’t sit well with me given the luxury of hindsight. I don’t compare BK vs Babcok. I look at BK only.

SS is right about pointing fingers..and I will refrain from it and let the season bare the results. I predict a 30-35 win improvement, which to most fans doesn’t translate to ticket sales.

And like Ando, I don’t know anyone who feels completely positive about the outlook. Even the most optimistic guy I know thinks the personnel moves have been questionable at best. But if you are an ultra fan then I’m not suprised some would appear on this blog. I feel like we should be talking about the players..but the darn management can’t get out of their own way and ours.

About Sheldon..as a rook, given his skills it’s a stretch even beyond this season for 12/10. Those are Carlos Boozer numbers, and he was starting in Cleveland. Shelden is a bencher. I’ll be fascinated with Josh Smith’s performance this year..I wonder what he has learned.

By Dejay

August 1, 2006 02:48 AM | Link to this

The delay in the Harrington trade verifies the perceived ineptitude of the current regime even further. The very fact that the ownership group is so straped for $$$ that they are willing to sell its lone FA asset down the river without bringing back a single player in return is bad comedy. If I was an opposing GM, I couldn’t wait to get BK on the phone when the Joshes become free agents; would I be able to get them for a pick or would BK hold out for a pack of frozen Totini’s pizzas?

Sorry for the pessimism but where is the hope? Why should I get stoked about a draft pick when you have to go back over TWO DECADES to find one who’s last made an All-Star appearance? I’ve read about all of this potential on this roster but until that translates into victories that matter, very few in this town will care. Remember the Braves in the late-’80s? Glavine, Smoltz, and Co. had all the potential in the world but while they were losing 95+ a season, no one could give a rat’s a$$ what they were doing. Same case here. Until this losing culture is changed, they will keep chasing its own tail.

By doc

August 1, 2006 08:35 AM | Link to this

the conspiracy theory is one that is ludicrous. it is the delayed response of some that finally have had enough of the negatives. afterall, the persistantly negative folks with that agenda only are the ones who have been asking the question; what has billy done right? then, when someone takes the time to catelogue it as well as those who continue to point out all the errorsand it is put in your lap or face to read you think it is a conspriracy. it is just andy pulling your leg or fanning your flame.

it is no more a conspiracy as having the good friend of belkin come here and blog away and not be a plant, right flash? also flash, i didnt miss the possible subtle point yesterday about arkansas, jj and paul.

By Astro Joe

August 1, 2006 09:46 AM | Link to this

Again, who would take this job? Would Belkin spend money? How much can a team win with a bottom 3 payroll? Again, its not entirely about the GM. I’m not sure that (insert historically recognized brilliant GM’s name here) could or would work under these circumstances. All of our problems do not fall at the feet of Billy Knight. That is a ridiculous notion. We are entering year 3 of the rebuilding. I assume people must believe that we should be competing for a playoff birth in year 3. If you believe that, then I would suggest that we are 1 year removed from that expectation. Not too bad. in the real world, missing something by 1 increment does not typically lead to public outcry nor termination. If your boss tells you to have something done by Tuesday and you get it done by Wednesday, you don’t get fired. If you want to lose 30 pounds by Christmas and get it done in January, you still get congratulated for getting it done. The reality seems to be that people don’t like BK because of his attitude and/or they don’t like his non-traditional approach to building a team. But again, if one chooses to use 285/Camp Creek Pkwy to get to the airport does it mean that they are wrong because you like taking 85? Given last year’s JJ fiasco, I doubt that we would be any closer to a playoff birth with another GM. Ando keeps talking about BK’s reputation throughout the league. My guess is that many NBA insiders understand the circumstances that BK is working under with this ownership mess. I bet many insiders know that GMs have limited autonomy. And I bet many insiders know the importance of ownership support when it comes to building the scouting infrastructure and general culture of an organization. Does anyone think that the employees of the Atlanta Spirit feel good about coming into work everyday? Who sets the tone for that culture, a mid-level exec like BK or is it the owners and Bernie Mullen? When every employee is looking over their shoulder and posting resumes and visiting job search engines, who created that untenable scenario?

Yeah, I’m guessing it is a mess over there. But we are within striking distance of respectability despite those conditions. And I believe that guys who have enjoyed leadership positions in corporate America and sports franchises can appreciate this floral growth that is attempting to grow out of terrible conditions. People are fixated on the details… who got drafted at pick #59, Childress vs. Deng/Iguodala (as if one is significantly better than the other), Paul vs. Marvin (too early to decide), including the #21 pick for JJ, when was the right time to trade Al (it is laughable that anyone can blame issues related to salaries on BK with all that we read and see regarding the financial stability of this ownership group), Smith vs Jameer, Shelden vs. Foye/Roy. Anyone think these debates didn’t happen last off-season in Miami? Think they are not happening this off-season for next year’s eventual champ?

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 10:39 AM | Link to this

Just for arguments’ sake, Joe (is there any other sake we have these days?), many folks would take this job. There are only 30 GM’s jobs on the planet, and someone as eternally optimistic as you should appreciate that shared perspective in another seeking the opportunity to do this better. Secondly, the suppposition that Belkin would take the teams with no desire to spend money belies the point that he has an out to walk away with significant profit, based on the original buy-out agreement. Since he’s now spending much additional cash, and has maintained a public stance of wanting to be an owner of an NBA franchise, is there really much point in asking whether he would spend? It was the Spirits’ contention that Belkin wanted to run the teams on the cheap, but now, convenient to your position, it’s the Spirit that’s on the cheap? So who do you think should be owner? I’m no longer clear on your position, other than that you feel BK is getting a bad rap here (though you really should consider taking that perspective cross-country, to counter what appears to me to be fairly universal disdain for his qualities as a GM).

Why in the world shouldn’t be fixated on the details that lend themselves to the creation of the whole? All the transactions you note, on an individual basis, would be insignificant. But the collection of readily questionable decisions creates a body of work that is well, well I say, below reproach. And the majority of the transactions in question simply don’t have sufficient financial implications to question them as any but purely basketball-related decisions.

If you want to be consistent with your financial theme, then there’s a flaw with the idea that finances played part in not trading Al before the deadline. Truth is that his cap number was far lower, his expiring contract cheaper to move, than it is, would be, this summer. We could have taken less salary for him, if that was indeed the motivating factor for the delay. So you can scrap that half-a*s theory right there. If there is a validity to a rapidly tightening belt, it came this summer, and not before. I’ve just never observed anything that supports Billy’s lack of autonomy, while I’ve been told point blank, by one of the owners, that Billy was solely in charge of all basketball decision. He said that on several occassions there have been offers/deals on the table that some of the owners really wanted to take, and Billy said “No”. He said to that point that he was satisfied with the results of Billy’s “no’s”, despite an overwhelming urge to be impatient and make moves.

So, while there is blame to spread, you’re ongoing conclusion that it’s ownership that is to blame for basketball related decision just doesn’t find support with me. The problem with your perspective, Joe, is that it requires me to call a range of folks liars to support. While my perspective is simply my own analysis of the facts, as I can best make them out, and subjective as some of them may be. I run these issues through my head daily, and the conclusion kicks out on my ticker-tape brain the same way every time. And I don’t have to call everybody and their brother a liar to get where I’m at.

And what the hell does Miami have to do with Atlanta, other than point out that to win a championship your primary on-court roles must include a tremendous decision-maker with the ball in his hands, and a dominant big man, to control the paint, the very two positions that Billy has essentially ignored during his tenure (well, other than the failed attempt to turn one of the most talented shooting guards in the NBA into a point guard)? If anything, Miami’s success proved 2 primary points I consistently make, one is right above, about what positions you must fill with top talent, and the second, is about using the right “interchangeable parts” to fill additional roles. That team turned the corner, when Antoine Walker responded to Riley’s demand that he get into good enough shape to play the three, and that he accept his role (he lost wait and spent countless ours improving his 3-point shooting, to cash in on the increasing catch-and-shoot opportunities he was seeing). As Sekou’s recent post points out, all this time wasted on Harrington sees us doing nothing about the additional role players that a quality team fills in the gaps with. The pool of potential role fillers shinks daily.

If the owners were really looking to go on lockdown, as you seem to continue to believe is the main culprit here, wouldn’t they have just used the courts initial ruling regarding spending to back out of the Speedy Claxton offer? Folks keep pointing to “conspiracies” here, but your vague and unsupportable contention that it’s all about the owners seems to be the real conspiracy theory.

BTW, I hope you and doc aren’t sharing those rose-colored glasses. I can buy you guys a second pair so you don’t have to wander the scape of Atlanta joined at the hip………

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 10:51 AM | Link to this

And as for my ongoing barrage, if you guys didn’t wind me back up everyday, I’d probably move on. But you keep coming back with inaccurate representations of my perspective, and I have no other choice but to respond. I’ve stated clearly in the last few days that I agreed there was blame to go around, but my position continues to be mis-characterized as solely fixated on Billy.

Truth be told, you guys are as responsible for the continuation of the discussion as anyone. And if Billy would get this Al thing done, so we could hold it up to the light and consider it’s merits, we’d finally have something new to talk about. The rest of the country, from ESPN to Sekou Smith, is wondering what can possibly be taking so long. Oh, that’s right, Joe, it’s the owners…….

By The Flash

August 1, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

Me, I said from my very first days on this blog that it was going to take time, that impatience would do no one any good. Still think that. Thought the picks and all were a big misstake; however, JJ has proved to be all that, even though he ain’t a point, which I was also saying all along.

So, the real question for me is, like Supperier used to put it, how are we “gonna coach em up.” If no lousy start like last year, and given the number of close loses last year, and the addition of a point and Sheldon, and a year for everyone under their belts, and JJ’s experience this summer, there is every reason to think that there will be some real ballin going on this year.

Now, if Belkin can get control of the team, no, I’m not going there. Been there, done that. I’ll let Ando be Belkin. He’s much, much smarter than me, as is Belkin.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 11:18 AM | Link to this

Awww, why do I have to be Belkin again? I want to be Flash! Or Doc. You know, that’s an interesting idea. With nothing to do but swing haymakers at each other, during the doldrums of Billy’s comatose summer, maybe we’ll have a day where we act as imposters for one anothers’ styles.

Hey, Doc, what do you think about us switching roles, and appropriating each others voices (or our version of each other’s voices) for a blog. I can offer soothing platitudes, uncapitalized, unencumbered by unnecessary dots and commas, and you can step out and rant with a ferocity you haven’t approached in years. Maybe only a few minutes of my voice would vex your soul. Then we could get together for a little chat and you could say, reaching an open and upturned palm to me, “Here, take this thing, get it away from me, this voice of yours! Is this what you have to walk around with, all day long, rattling around in your head, the voice of a caged and angry beast!? Take it back and never share it again!” And then, once I’d retrieved it and sheathed it, you could placidly return to your happy place, and all would be well with the world.

Let me know what you think…….(oops, how you feel)

By Astro Joe

August 1, 2006 11:32 AM | Link to this

Ando, Al is costing us NOTHING to trade. We are receiving $3M in cash and a pick. What are you talking about, that his contract was less last year vs. this year. That’s completely irrelevant as the owners are clearly looking for a profit from this deal. Are you paying attention?

To make sure that I do not misinterpret your words, I see that you say that there is fairly universal disdain for BK’s GM qualities. I do not see universal disdain on this blog, nor the blogs at several other websites for Hawks fans. What national writers think about a team they probably spend less than 2 hours watching a season is not important to me. What box score watchers think is truly irrelevant. I would never attempt to evaluate the Blazers GM from my northwest Atlanta vantage point. Seems like you are choosing to ignore those with differing views. While I doubt there are few who would elect him as a HOF GM, I think afair amount of us consider him a “work in progress” (much like Woody) and have not yet attached universal disdain to his GM skills.

If and when the ownership mess gets fixed, regardless of who owns the team, they need to be willing to invest money in this franchise. You’re right, we have no idea what Belkin would do, he has chosen not to make any attempts to share his vision with Atlanta fans. You’re right, we do not know anymore about him than what his opposition puts forth. He has done nothing to pave the road for his entry into this city. That, in and of itself, bothers me.

There is no doubt that every move of every GM can be scrutinized. The accumulative effect is about wins/losses and progress. I’m willing to give BK this upcoming season before jumping on the fully loaded Clyde/Ando bandwagon. There is no denying the progress this team has made. No denying that we are more balanced going into next season. No doubting that we have a youthful nucleus that can generate excitement for home fans. I’ll let you argue the tiny grains of sand of Dwayne Jones vs. Cenk Akyol from your front seat in the wagon. Have fun. But chances are, I’ll meet you at that intersection of respectability and progress. You’ll just be yelling at the rain when we get there and I will be enjoying the ride.

By Ken Strickland

August 1, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

Wow, if this S&T doesn’t happen soon, this blog is going to explode. Do any of you remember when ATL and Memphis offered their GM jobs to Jerry West? Do you know why he chose Memphis over ATL? He knew, from past experiences(LA), that a GM cannot achieve success if ownership is in conflict. The Hawks, at the time, were in conflict and were eventually sold to the current owners. The problems West saw were a mere nuances compared to those inherited by Bk. Some of us are insightful enough to recognize and accept the handicap BK’s working under. Thus, we give weight to his accomplishments rather than blindly criticize. Competing in a 50yd race isn’t all that difficult if you aren’t asked to pull a 50lb weight.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 11:39 AM | Link to this

Joe, see my comments from 12:36 last night, and know that I’ll being doing anything but yelling in the rain. In fact I never yell. I just type……..

By lacsho

August 1, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

I’ve exhausted all of my tangents on management and ownership. * I’m ready to talk about this year’s schedule*I really don’t see a slow start. This team has been together for a minute. The chemistry should be there. The other teams that made tons of acquisitions won’t even jell until Jan. or Feb. The Hawks should be able to win out the gate. At least we’re not going out west to get hammered from Jump Street. I can see us going 9-4 or 8-5 for the month of November. Especially if the Hawks pick up, from where they left off last year, we should be in great shape… I think we will see a big difference with Speedy, b/c he has a lot to prove, and just like JJ, I think Speedy will prove his worth. The jury is out on the rest of the acquisitions, so I’ll get off their back for now!!!!!

So guys what’s your take on the 06-07 season

By honest abe

August 1, 2006 11:51 AM | Link to this

talk about splitting hairs…………………………………………………………………………..!

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 11:56 AM | Link to this

Joe, you mix timeframes of convenience like I mix cocktails. Based on the collective bargaining agreement, the only way we could have perceived obtaining a return on Al this summer, prior to the trade deadline, is the asumption that we would be taking on a combination of salary values equal to the contract signed by Al Harrington, for a sign-and-trade. So, at the time of the deadline, Al’s cap implication was lower than it is now. Donnie Walsh called suggestions that the $7.5 million trade exception that they received for Peja, as a plan to use in obtaining Al Harrington, completely erroneous. So there was simply no way that this was some big master plan for a team, at the salary cap, to be able to take on Al’s new cap number, without having to give actual and equal value back to the receiving team (regardless if that compensaton is in cash, players or picks, it’s still a cap implication issue). Certainly, there was no way to predict this back at the trade deadline. You like to jumble completely different timeframes together to support a faulty conclusion. Logically, the Hawks decision not to trade Al prior to the deadline included the likely assumption that they would be taking on a larger cap implication this summer, once he was re-signed to a larger deal, than they would take on when his cap number was $6.5 million. Thus, your theory that not trading him prior to the deadline was somehow in anticipation of minimizing the overall, collective salary costs of the team, is seriously lacking.

What has transpired, consistent with you theory of financial constraints, is recent, but not part of what occurred back in February. Unless there was serious consideration, at that time, to let him walk without compensation, a move that would have just caused additional poor public relations with the average fan.

It’s truely obvious that neither of us is clueless, and that we will fail to agree on just about everything related to the Hawks for as long as we’re here. I do enjoy disagreeing with you, because at least you can defend your position with skill (however wrong-headed it may be). You and Sam are my favorite two sparring partners, ‘cause you never back down. I like it.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Abe, no Red Bull’s today? You’re much more fun when your brain is addled on legal speed……………….

All this and it’s only noon. Guess I’ll take a conference call and get some actual work done today.

By honest abe

August 1, 2006 12:06 PM | Link to this

ya i’ve been tryin to chill out more these days. don’t enjoy being at work all wired…….from here on out i’m going to be relaxed and boring

By Astro Joe

August 1, 2006 01:01 PM | Link to this

For the past several years, NBA GMs have always been able to trade away a player and get nothing in return. There is nothing new or exciting about that. Ownership is poor/cheap. Obviously, if they wanted to get value back for Al, they could have then or now. They chose not to. Pretty simple. I look at what a team received as a template for what they wanted. If you end up with a car, I assume you didn’t want a jet ski. If you keep Al for the full year and ultimately get cash and a pick, I don’t draw the conclusion that what they really wanted was a big man and PG for about $6.5M. I come to the conclusion that they wanted cash and a draft pick. I know, I’m silly that way.

By Ken Strickland

August 1, 2006 01:37 PM | Link to this

LACSHO, I’m with you on talking about the team and your assessment of the team. A number of individuals have listed teams they rate above the Hawks because they improved their roster. Having an improved roster doesn’t always translate into having an improved team. You were correct, it often takes time for revamped rosters to come together. Last yr, none of our starters had started together before and 3 were 1st time starters. JJ admitted that being the go to guy was new for him and required adjustments. Marvin, Staudamire and Batista are no longer rookies. Speedy is a great addition and, along with Lue, will allow us to maintain an uptempo style of play. The positive effort and attitude the team had last yr will carry over to this season. Opposing players and coaches routinely acknowledged the Hawks improved play down the stretch. We will definitely see markedly improved results this season for both the team and individual players.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

Your position, Joe, belies the reality that the whole scenario with ownership has drastically changed between right now and right before the deadline. It’s hard for me to fathom that you really believe that 4 months ago these owners said to Billy, don’t trade him for anything of value, we’ll look to get a so-so first rounder and $3 million in cash this summer. Your comment that if they wanted to get value back for Al they could have had it then or now, ignores the option that they proabably really expected to get better value this summer, than at the deadline, NOT that they just didn’t want any value. Then, when the tables got turned on them, everything changed. This may be the weakest position I’ve ever seen you take. This whole situation with ownership is a wildly evolving series of changing events. In fact, 4 months ago, these guys thought they’d have bought out their partner, Belkin, by now. Instead the courts have ruled that they are the ones who will be bought out, and created limitations on their ability to run the franchise autonomously. So looking for some constant thread, regarding player transactions, between that time and this, is truly laughable. Not so much silly, as seriously laughable.

By newkid

August 1, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

No real acquisitions during the 05/06 season (even with Collier’s passing); no tradeline deal for Al that could have helped to address a need, but would have likely represented a contract to pay beyond the end of this past season; no trade for Magloire’s $8.3M contract this summer; and refusal to take back players in a sign and trade for Al and Edwards. Doesn’t this all sound like a decision was made soon after the JJ affair to do exactly what doc suggested in one of his recent posts (i.e., race to the bottom of the salary structure)? This could all be a result of the GM recommending this course of action to the owners and the owners agreeing (really?), or it could be an a priori decision by the Spirit (whatever the extenuating circumstances). Regardless of whom - or what - this thought process should be attributed, isn’t it too bizarre to be coincidental?

Is this about ‘07 mega free agents (who are they?), or is it about shorter-term capital management? It certainly doesn’t appear to be about flooring the most competative 15 that can be ‘economically’ assembled for the upcoming season. Despite what one, or a few, of the owners might say publically about the GM having a free hand to go after the necessary assets, this sounds/looks all too contrived to this novice. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck….

By A Thinking Fan

August 1, 2006 02:31 PM | Link to this

Ken & LACSHO THUMBS-UP for adding some spice to this blog…

By Astro Joe

August 1, 2006 02:40 PM | Link to this

Here is the fact, there were NO transactions during the whole season. NONE. Not even to replace Collier. NONE. They filed papers to the court throughout the season. Those documents showed that the owners were under financial distress. These owners have been losing money outside of the possible buyout by Belkin. We didn’t hear about the $20M in losses last week, it was during the season. Do you think they started counting their losses at $20M or do you think they started maybe around $5M or $8M or $10M or $12M? Not to mention that it was obvious to all of us (and you and I had this discussion), that any attempt to take on salary would likely generate action from their nemesis. And what happened within a few days of the Speedy pre-announcement?

What did Phoenix get for JJ? An inexpensive player and picks. What did NJ get for Kenyon? Inexpensive picks. Do I think that these owners had a reason to think that they could unload Al for something far less than taking back $6.5M? Uh, yeah I do. Do I think they have been penny-pinching for more than 2 months since the season ended? If they have an accountant mildly more competent than their legal team, definitely.

By Kappy

August 1, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Im going to bring a new topic to this blog. I dont know, something about playing basketball! The drama is great and all, but lets not forget what we’re splitting hairs over. We all want the Hawks to be successful.

The NBA released its schedule today. And i was extremely excited to see that the Hawks wont have to go on a 5 game roadtrip out west to start the season. I believe we’ve had to that the past few seasons, and it was almost impossible not to get started on a bad note. We start off in Philadelphia then come home to play the pitiful Knicks, then we go to Orlando. Certainly a more manageable schedule than we’ve had in the past.

Any comments about actual basketball games?

By TMOON

August 1, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

All of the above mentioned ideas, dreams and hopes sound good, but there is one common factor in the entire Hawks organization that will keep them from going anywhere. BILLY NIGHT, BILLY NIGHT, BILLY NIGHT, BILLY NIGHT, BILLY NIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!! This guy is the most arrogant human being in THE SOUTHEASTERN U.S. If you talk to the Indiana people and read the papers, the GM up there said it just like me, it’s on “BILLY”. When he goes, the hawks will sore high!!!!!!!

By doc

August 1, 2006 03:33 PM | Link to this

andy, at this stage in my life i am desiring to reduce my karma not add to it except when carrying on with atf and flash, my buds. no thanks on the switch. try aj.

putting on rose colored glasses is a choice along with seeing the big picture which you see but it isnt as much fun to discuss.

By popsicle

August 1, 2006 03:54 PM | Link to this

so why no talk of players the Hawks could use the cap space on, after the Harrington trade to Indy? If we need bigs, how about 6’10 Chris Wilcox? Even if he’s a natural PF, he can play the 5 and rebound, score, and run the court better than any other bigs on the roster?

By cowa

August 1, 2006 04:15 PM | Link to this

There is an article out on Rotoworld (I read that site for Fantasy Baseball, but saw this article) about stable and unstable line-ups entering into the season, and Atlanta was #5 for stability, in that we all feel we know who our starting 5 are. The interesting thing in the article was not on the stable teams, but the unstable ones, and what might that mean to the trade market. Yes, the Knicks were there, with their 6 SF’s, but Portland and Boston were also on it. Boston has a great problem to deal with in Ryan Gomes and Al Jefferson at PF, and the author is projecting Gomes to win the job, and another fight at PG, between Telfair and Delonte West. The question to me is what would Boston want for the “losers” of these competitions? I would love to get West or Jefferson.

Now on Portland, the main thrust of the article was on how they get rid of Miles, a known cancer with $34M remaining on his contract. They suggest that the main reason they just traded for Magloire is that they may have ot move LaMarcus Aldridge as an enticement for someone to take Miles off their hands. My question to all the bloggers out there, would taking on Miles and all his issues be worth acquiring Aldridge, a C/PF that could man the post for years? And yes, we would probably have to give up a forward in the deal, such as Josh Smith (they wouldn’t have a need for Childress, so don’t go there).

Just some thoughts away from the ownership mess and blaming somebody!

By Ken Strickland

August 1, 2006 04:30 PM | Link to this

I have something for you KAPPY. Considering how competitive we were at seasons end, how much stronger do you think we’ll finish this season? Consider this, we have a quicker, faster PG that plays both ends of the court, and, if MW starts, a quicker, more athletic PF. We have more experience, both team wise and individually, and a stronger bench. With Lue and Ivey coming off the bench we are stronger at PG, Staudamire can play more 2, a more confortable pos, and Childress can play more 3 for the same reason. If Shelden progresses as expected, and we get another servicable big, we’ll be stronger inside. The KNICKS can’t expect a lot of individual improvement since their key players have either piqued or are in decline. The PACERS key players are fragile and they no longer have a solid veteran bench to carry them like last yr. NO/OK has also lost its core of veterans, especially Speedy, and will take time to assimulate into a cohesive unit. Their success is based on the performance of one key player, Paul. BOSTON is banking its success on a HS PG with limited exper, a rookie and a veteran C that’s one dimensional with bad knees. Its key players have also either piqued or are in decline and they will collapse without Pierce. WASHINGTON plays absolutely no DEF and their success is based on the ability to outscore opponents and, without Gilbert, that won’t happen. MILWAUKEE is banking its success on a one dimensional rookie and an injury prone PG. They will be a weaker rebounding and DEF team. CHICAGO has replaced half its roster and will be weaker OFF than last yr, which was their main problem. Virtually all of these aforementioned teams are just one key injury away from collapse. Losing JJ would definitely hurt the Hawks, but they wouldn’t necessarily collapse. Childress and Staudamire would lessen the impact. I see a very interesting and exciting season ahead for the Hawks and I believe they will be up for the challenge. GO HAWKS!!!!!

7

By doc

August 1, 2006 04:42 PM | Link to this

ken, i misplaced my rose colored glasses, did you happen to see them or even better find them?

By honest abe

August 1, 2006 04:43 PM | Link to this

the hawks wouldn’t collapse without jj?

lay down the crack pipe it’s not even 6’o clock yet homes!

By Astro Joe

August 1, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

Cowa, good post. I wouldn’t touch Miles and his contract even if he came with Beyonce. Okay, I lied. It would take a lot for me to touch Miles and his contract. I figured that Aldridge would play behind Randolph at PF and work on building up his body. I, too, would love to get Delonte West. He is a true combo guard, not a short SG trying to fake it like many others. Boston doesn’t know if they want to build for the future or try to win now, and I think that fence-riding will ultimately hurt them. It will be interesting to see if they can keep Pierce and Wally at the same time as keeping Gerald Green and Al Jefferson. Each of those pairs require plenty of touches. But neither pair seems potent enough to carry them to sustained success. Delonte West would likely be in my top 5 list of guys to get for the Hawks.

By cowa

August 1, 2006 05:09 PM | Link to this

AJ, I agree with your sentiments on both Miles and West. Let me throw this out though. What if Portland offered Miles and their UNprotected #1 pick in 2007? The Jailblazers are just a bunch of rookies and 1st year guys except for Zach, Joel and Magloire, so I’m anticipating another bottom 3 finish this year. We could always just pull a Delk and sit Miles for the next 4 years (don’t put anything by our management)! Just kidding.

By newkid

August 1, 2006 05:13 PM | Link to this

Yikes! Portland’s salary situation looks awful at ~$65 million before signing the two rookies (Aldridge & Roy). Moving Miles’ salary ($7.75 mil this season) would help them sign the draft picks without venturing into luxury tax territory, but can’t imagine the Blazers giving up Aldridge to rid themselves of Miles. Seems to make more sense to package Magloire’s one year contract as an inducement for someone to take Miles, but the trading partner would have to come up with about $16 million in player salaries and/or exceptions to make the deal work. By the way, why would Portland want LaFrentz ($11 mil), Magloire ($8.3 mil), Przybilla (~$5 mil), and Aldridge (all capable of playing the 5 spot) on that roster? I smell a possibility here.

By cowa

August 1, 2006 05:16 PM | Link to this

In regards to the “big” we are going after, I think most of us agree they will not come with a big price tag, so Wilcox isn’t likely at all. I know SS likes Wright, but I would prefer either Ely or Cato. I’m just hoping their price tags aren’t too high. I like Ely better, but he may want too much time at the 4. Cato rebounds, blocks shots, plays D and doesn’t concern himself with any offense, which is the type of player we need to back up Zaza. Cato, after sitting out the second half last year with Detroit, might even be willing to take a 1 year contract with a player option for year 2 to prove himself, exactly the type of attitude we want (as long as he doesn’t try to prove himself on the offensive end). Kandi Man might also feel the same way, although I think Cato is a better fit.

By doc

August 1, 2006 05:25 PM | Link to this

interesting note in a rcent sports illustrated that may imply and even deeper draft coming up this year. it seems kids that can fit into a mold can go around the senoir year of high school and maybe able to become eleigible for the draft at the same time they were to graduate form high school it also might allow them a year to upgrade the competition by going overseas.

the scenario is this, if you have a kid who would be 19 at the time he could declare he can get his gre to get him out of high school a year early and then make him eligible ahead of the rest of the kids of his same school age. it seems like there are a couple of kids considering this test of the collective bargaining agreement. the two are o.j. mayo and bill walker.

one other tidbit of significant proportions for atf. stev nash got a buzz cut. he no longer has the flowing locks. he definitely is mvp material now atf cant use that last little thing against him.

By Samuel I AM

August 1, 2006 05:52 PM | Link to this

Sekou can you confirm this. I read that Rick Bucher said Al Harrington has change agents. He has went with JJ agent. Any truth to this?

By mountain_jim

August 1, 2006 06:23 PM | Link to this

Sekou already has confirmed it.

Go read the AJC sports article he wrote.

By Ken Strickland

August 1, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

You see, I come up with an upbeat, positive post and DOC starts looking for some darn glasses and HONEST ABE starts talking about some darn pipe. Sure, I oversimplified my evaluations somewhat, but who dosen’t. I was just trying to comply with KAPPY’S request. He didn’t say how realistic I had to be. I guess most of you aren’t happy unless the content is of a negative nature. Poor me, I can’t seem to get a break.

By jhan

August 1, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

Wonder why Harrington changed agents? Any possibility HE might have something to do with this hold up? Probably not, we all know BK is the reason this deal hasn’t been completed. If you want verification, just read what Walsh says about BK. You know what he says has to be gospel.

By Samuel

August 1, 2006 06:37 PM | Link to this

If yall get a chance. Check out my girls(T. Whitmore and T. White) from Tupelo on The Duece tonight at 8. They battle Lambier and his Motown crew. I know both these girls and their families.

Doc, I think that age limit is a bunch of crap anyway. Why is basketball singled out for an age limit? I hope they challenge this rule and win. I’m sure we’ve discussed this before but i’m interested in hearing some “new” fresh views on this subject. And please not the usual weak arguments like that one year of college will help him mature. Yea right!

By jhan

August 1, 2006 06:38 PM | Link to this

Wonder why Harrington changed agents? Any possibility HE might have something to do with this hold up? Probably not, we all know BK is the reason this deal hasn’t been completed. If you want verification, just read what Walsh says about BK. You know what he says has to be gospel.

By doc

August 1, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

well, well, well, as the world turns. soooo was it billy who was holding it up as was insinuated by brother al or something else? only the shadow (and bp) knows.

how long will it take for someone to put the blame on billy? you know there use to be a campfire song, put the blame on mame. andy maybe you can make up a few verses in our spare time as this deal gets done and call it, put the blame on billy.

By jhan

August 1, 2006 06:54 PM | Link to this

I think that Stern wants the age minimum because he thinks it will help the quality of the league. His stance is that players will be more seasoned coming into the league which will mean for better “on court” performances.

I think the owners like it because they get to see players compete against better competition. I know college ball is not what it used to be, but there is no denying that a college team would beat a high school team pretty badly.

I can see both sides of the issue. Why don’t these kids have the right to jump to the NBA if they can? They can go to Iraq and get killed at that age. It is the NBA, and they can run their league how they want. Tough issue.

By doc

August 1, 2006 07:00 PM | Link to this

ken, i loved it please see the humor in it as that is all we have at times. i know you are laughing back but just to make sure. you’re cool, bro!

samuel concur on the high school thing. if they are ready let the market demand what they can get and what they can do. that rule only protects those already in the game. the players that are on the edge or going out anyway and the owners from themselves; we know you cant even come close to doing that for them.

see that someone blamed billy before i could even wonder out loud how long it would take. boy, we are a predictable lot.

By jhan

August 1, 2006 07:03 PM | Link to this

Doc, that was tounge-in-cheek.

By doc

August 1, 2006 07:04 PM | Link to this

another thought, as far as the high school issue, sekou has already pointed out the hypocrisy and inconsistancy of it as international players can just about go in in diapers if they are good enough and be draft eligible.

By jhan

August 1, 2006 07:04 PM | Link to this

Doc, that was tongue-in-cheek.

By doc

August 1, 2006 07:07 PM | Link to this

yeah jhan, but it is very real as we were on the same thought pattern at the same time. :-)

i heard the tone with the reference to walsh. i doubt he really is going to say much about billy as he trained him and will probably ask him back as that team has always done pretty well with and emphasized the scouting.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 07:08 PM | Link to this

Doc, you’ll need to read a little deeper on the Mayo/Walker situation, as it’s AAU basketball at it’s most insidious. Walker was in 9th grade when his “handlers” went shopping for a private school that would take him and place him back in 8th grade. So he has already gone to high school for 8 semesters, despite being viewed as one of the best high school “juniors” in the country. This practice was actually not too uncommon back when I was in high school, as great athletes were held back around 8th grade to give them an extra year to mature and develop for high school competition. Mayo’s situation is not the same, though he and his people have discussed his going pro over to Europe for a year, with a big contract, and a huge multi-year deal with a shoe company, while he waits to be drafted. In the mean time, he has publicly indicated he will be going to USC in the fall for his “one and done”.

Not sure what Walker is going to do, as he just played in the major all-star camps that high schoolers attend, despite already being ruled ineligible for what many thought would be his senior year. The NBA has stated that he cannot enter next years’ drafts, but lawyers familiar with the entry requirements set by the league indicate that his original senior class, the one he was part of the first time he was a ninth grader, just graduated, so he technically meets requirements. Could be yet another legal battle brewing.

I have to agree with Sam that the one year rule was a real cop out, as it does nothing to protect the integrity of the college game, and nothing to assist the young stars in getting a back up education. It just buys veterans a year of protection from having high schoolers take their jobs, and protects teams from paying an extra year at millions for kids who rarely can contribute right away. It also is equally balanced for European kids.

Finally, there has even been talk by Sonny Vacarro about putting together a barn-storming team, of the best high school seniors, who would have entered the draft, and having them paid by one of the shoe companies, so they having something to get paid doing during their one year of professional basketball “no man’s land”

Doc, someone said a few posts before your comment about the deal that Walsh indicated it was on Billy, and he was the hold up. I read those same quotes, so that’s all I know about who the hold up is about. But if Al just fired Andy Miller, then we could very well lose him for nothing, something Sekou warned could happen the longer Billy took to close the deal. Guess time will tell. No point predicting.

Cowa, I’ve liked the idea of going after Ely for the last year. I’ve just never heard that Billy, or the franchise has had any inclination to pursue it. But, according to his fans here, Billy has apparently been gagged and bound to a chair, by the owners, for the last year, and hasn’t actually been functioning as the GM at all. That makes his signing of Speedy a rather odd abberation, as well as his comments to Mark Bradley that he knew more than anyone else about the game of basketball (oh, yeah, and that he found people’s urging for a point guard pretty funny, and didn’t really agree we needed a point guard; must have been peer pressure). Imagine my surprise, accompanied by some guilt, to find out that Billy Knight died several years ago, and they’ve had an imposter posing as him (and as a GM), for reasons’ unknown. That certainly is as viable a conspiracy theory as the one many here believe about Billy be unable to perform his duties due to ownerships’ complete restriction on all transactions. It’s clearly why they drafted Shelden Williams (why not just trade the pick if you didn’t want to pay #5 money, since they’re on lock down). They’ve agreed to $10 million annually in contracts to Speedy and Shelden, but they’re not functioning as an organization whatsoever (though it seems pretty obvious that if the Spirit didn’t want to spend any money, they could have backed out of the offer to Speedy based on the judges’ ruling regarding spending).

Oh well, I keep suggesting that folks might want to look at things in shades of grey, but black and white is the fashionable ensemble for opinions here on the blog, so I yield to the masses and I’ll believe you when you tell me that the Spirit shot JFK and Marilyn…….

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 07:16 PM | Link to this

OK, we need Sekou. The obvious question is does the changing of agents increase the likelihood of us getting nothing in return?

By doc

August 1, 2006 07:16 PM | Link to this

really wasnt concerned about who as much as the implications down the road. the who came from the si article. i asure you i dont begin to keep up with aau ball and the shenangans that go on there. it was apparantly brought up by a shoe rep who has had input into the likes of labron so he seems to have some cred. just trying to bring back some relevance to the game of basketball. well, i guess it really is one of those courtroom things as well. flash, we cant keep from supporting your union!

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 07:20 PM | Link to this

That’s the best overview of the Walker/Mayo situation I can give, doc, as we’re trying to steer it back to basketball.

Minimim 15 day waiting period for filing of paperwork to change agents. So we won’t know much for the next two weeks, I would only assume….

By Astro Joe

August 1, 2006 08:22 PM | Link to this

Seems to me that Al can only “walk” to a team with cap room. I don’t think hiring a new agent means he can break the CBA. I know that BK is the root fo all evil, but maybe Al was sitting there thinking, “darn, they won’t come off $3M for me? They gave hurt-butt Tinsley that fat contract and they won’t pay the lousy $3M to bring me on board? Fine, let’s break the deal and start anew.” So who has cap room left that may want Al? I’m sure we’ll find out soon. Other than that limited list, we get to negotiate another S&T with another team that Al wants to play with.

And Ando, nice try at ridicule. Fact still remains that from August, 2005 to the NBA draft at the end of June, 2006, some 11 months, BK’s sole transactions involved NBDL-type players (including Edwards, Batista, Thomas, Lang and Grundy). And when there was an immediate need to replace Collier, nothing happened. Find another 11 month period in his tenure as GM over Memphis or Atlanta when the ultra-arrogant BK essentially hid in a cave. Sure the fact that those 11 months were in the thick of the ownership divorce could be a coincidence. And maybe, Palmeiro never did take steroids. Anything is possible.

By CJ

August 1, 2006 08:43 PM | Link to this

Joe I almost think you like provocking Ando. It’s obvious you two will never agree so whats with the back and forth.

By CJ

August 1, 2006 08:44 PM | Link to this

I’m not trying to be condescending by the way.. just wondering…whistling

By Astro Joe

August 1, 2006 09:03 PM | Link to this

Every hero requires an arch-enemy. I’ll let others assign the roles, I’m just here to play.

Of course, Al could do something that I can never recall being done in the NBA. Sign a 1 year deal for a team at the vet’s minimum salary. Then spend next season playing for a bigger contract. That would be a very interesting twist and would allow him to control his own destiny, to some degree.

Hey Basketball Princess, where you at?

By Ken Strickland

August 1, 2006 09:18 PM | Link to this

ANDO, shortly after BK started negotiations with Speedy, Belkin filed a motion against the Spirit to limit spending. You know about the injunction. It was lifted after an agreement/compromise was reached between Belkin and the Spirit. None of us knows the content of that compromise or agreement, but it could likely be the reason the Hawks are unable/unwilling to take on any new contracts. It is also likely that the agreement or compromise allows Belkin to have approval on all deals. Since the JJ trade, Belkin has been the one on record complaining about spending. He filed court papers asking that the Spirit be required to post a 100M+ bond to protect him against any expenses the team might incurr without his consent. The Speedy deal went through because the injunction allowed any deal to be completed if the negotiations started before Belkins injuction. It’s always easier to dump all of the change(blame)in one container(BK) than to seperate it by denomination(Belkin, owners, Al,etc). We all love you anyway.

By Richie Rich

August 1, 2006 09:41 PM | Link to this

Ken, you may have to check with Ando or someone else, but Jerry West wanted total control with the Hawks, and they wouldn’t give it to him, so that’s why he chose Memphis over Atlanta….This is what i heard on this situation…….If anybody else knows anything different, feel free to elaborate.

By Richie Rich

August 1, 2006 09:45 PM | Link to this

Ken, I think that Belkin was worried that if he gets control of the teams, he didn’t want BK to sabotage the team, salary cap wise, with a bunch of bad contracts, thats why he filed the injunction….I don’t think it’s because he’s cheap…..Why would he be in favor of trading for Allen Iverson if he was cheap?

By CJ

August 1, 2006 10:04 PM | Link to this

In defense of Ando.. he continually states that he isn’t dumping all the blame on BK. But basketball decisions PRIOR to these court debacles which have had ramifications up until this very summer is the point Ando and many of us are trying to point out. If you don’t hold that against the GM..fine..that’s your position. But alot of us and fans have a low tolerance it. The only franchise I’ve seen enact a similar rebuilding plan as the Hawks are the Bulls…only problem is the Bulls have drafted far more impact players than us. The flip side is Boston which has been mired in rebuilding for quite awhile. Are we more like the Bulls or Boston?

To be honest the ownership situation has became the shackles to the franchise…but the damage started in small parts well before that and BK’s performance HAS attributed to that. Even some of you have admitted so (he hasn’t made the best decisions) so in essense you are all making the same points….just to different extremes.

By honest abe

August 1, 2006 10:12 PM | Link to this

not really i think our overall views on the state of the franchise are extremely different.

the cry babies such as yourself can only see doom and gloom for this franchise. scutinizing every small detail. like what toothpaste bk uses. on the hand the people that actually enjoy waking up each morning view the hawks as a quickly progressing team with tons of potential. we’ll admit that bk might have made a few mistakes but we’re overwilling to overlook some of the faults due to the current ownership problems.

so no we’re not all making the same points….instead we’re just trying to prove why our view is the “better” or more “right” choice.

By michael m.

August 1, 2006 10:26 PM | Link to this

where do you get that al firing his agent means we will lose him for nothing? stop being pessimistic losers. of course he is pissed at indy for not being willing to consummate the deal. they want to scale back the draft pick if they have to pay $3 mill. ridiculous. indy is just being cheap, thinking there is no one else. al is pissed at them, like someone above wrote. its obvious. now arn is an agent who can get teams to do things and make 3 way trades happen because he reps so many people. ando, look in the mirror my friend. you are such a negative person, thank god you do not represent the hawks. everything with you is “the sky is falling”. i am not saying i love bk by any means, but you you wear your negativity like a layer of skin, and cannot even see something for what it is when its right in front of you. everyone wants to blame bk for this trade not going through. how easy. its like a bandwagon. get an original voice. its indiana that is making this difficult and now they will have to pay up if they want to get a deal done. but it might be too late for that. lets see what tellem can do in terms of getting other teams involved. but its just idiotic to me when some of you look at this situation and blame bk. he isnt the best and hes done quite a few things i disagree with, but that doesnt mean i do not look at every instance that comes up. i dont get lazy and fall back on blaming bk over and over. you’re like a broken record sometimes.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 10:32 PM | Link to this

Thanks, CJ, because I’m seriously starting to wonder if people here can’t read. How many times do I have to say it’s not all Bk, and that my conclusions on BK stand on their own merit? How many times do I have to ask folks to take my comments contextually, in shades of grey, instead of taking a line or two of mine and ignoring the other 999 lines of text?

Ken, to correct you, the Spirit have made their contention of Belkin’s desire to run the team on the cheap the backbone of their desire to oust him, at least publicly. But now folks like Joe are saying it’s the Spirits’ cheapness that hounds the current state of affairs, with no activities by Billy, over an extended period of time, proof that it’s the owners who have hamstrung a truely effective GM. I still can’t see how signing Speedy Claxton fits in with that theory at all. Why not trade an existing contract for a point guard still on his rookie contract? $26 million for a career back up seems like a lot for a team that absolutely has closed the coffers.

What I’m now really interested to see is what Joe’s explanation will be if Harrington’s agent change leads to a transaction where we take on talent, under any type of long-term contract scenario. I suppose that Joe will ignore he ever said that it was all on the Spirit, in defense of BK and instead conveniently point to any acquisition as some kind of support that BK is getting the job done. The inferential leaps here are prodigious.

From a strictly basketball sense (I’ve made clear what the implications are to me, regarding Billy’s choices and handling of the draft slot asset) I just don’t see Shelden getting on the floor very much if he can’t play the five. And I’ve heard or seen no suggestion that he’s big enough, or skilled enough, to manage that position. Josh and Marvin are going to be on the floor a tremendous amount, playing forward, for lack of an ability to differentiate either as a 3 or 4. Another big, big enough for the five, has to obtained, if we are to show any significant improvement in record.

Joe says the owners are on financial lock down. So if Joe is right, we can expect no more acquisitions, due to monetary constraint.

Joe, I’ll ask you a direct question, and I challenge you to answer it: do you think this team should be owned and run by the Spirit, or by Belkin? Neither is not an answer, because it will be one or the other. You’ve pointed to current affairs as proof that it’s the Spirit’s finances that hold this team back from improving in a timely fashion, and thus that Billy is merely a scapegoat. But if Belkin takes over the team, he’ll clearly fire Billy Knight, who you contend is the victim. Which scenario is in the best interests of the Hawks, and their fans? I’d really like to know your position on this.

By A Thinking Fan

August 1, 2006 10:36 PM | Link to this

DOC LOL! I think DW won it all this year. Nash was on the links trying to be like Tiger.

By michael m.

August 1, 2006 10:36 PM | Link to this

richie, i believe west was concerned with our management situation at the time since he knew whoever came in to buy the teams would be able to take away any total power he might have had. in fact, pete babcock said he was willing to step back and be an asst. to jerry west if he wanted to come to atlanta.

abe, didnt see your post till i was done with my diatribe.

i think it’s important that we move forward. i agree with examining what has gone on in the past but some of you just dont know when to move on and leave something alone. i was pissed at the time darko was available and we didn’t get him and arroyo for harrington and delk, but i dont keep harping on it. there are a number of issues i might take issue with, but i can still see that we have some really nice pieces. maybe it’s just that i live out here in los angeles with the sunshine - i grew up in atlanta and still go back to visit family - but sometimes i have to take breaks from this board because it’s so redundant. i know what is going to be said before it’s said. ando’s points are the same as they were a year ago. where is the growth, the fresh take? it’s a variation off the theme of groundhog’s day around here. step up your game.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 10:39 PM | Link to this

MM, I didn’t say that what I expected, and I didn’t say that’s what I hope. I asked whether it would have an impact. And the fact that Al is an unrestricted free agent means it’s still a possibility. It’s still pertinent in the context of choosing not to trade him prior to the deadline. I’ve never blamed Billy for not getting the deal complete. I’ve pointed to public statements by Walsh that it was Billy that was holding it up on his end, for whatever that is worth. Some folks here are very comfortable mischaracterizing my position, and putting words in my mouth, which seems like it would be hard since I take great pains to make my positions as explicit as possible. It’s pretty lame.

I’m going to kick back and see how this thing plays itself out. There’s really nothing new here, so you guys should just relax…….

By michael m.

August 1, 2006 11:01 PM | Link to this

ando,

i will say that i agree everything has shades of grey while acknowledging that the print medium can make it sometimes to discern just how much. when you talk about wanting sekou to let us know if it means we will lose al for nothing, it implies an inherent negativity. for instance, when i first heard about it, i wondered how it would open the door for new possibilities. because the proposed indy deal was really a great deal for indy. and so having read that walsh wanted to scale back the pick if they gave us $3 mill, it was obvious that indiana is the one playing hardball. and the fact that some just want this whole thing done even if we get mugged in the process, is b******t. we are probably not going to get even value, (even value would make harrison and a #1 for harrington a fair deal) but that doesnt mean i want bk to cave. look, i like that you can back up your points ando, but i just feel sometimes you get lazy in repeating yourself. there’s a lot of people here who give you props and so i can understand how that might occur, but still, i feel you are capable of more. let’s not take the simple way out. let’s try to examine what we do have and figure out how it can work. or is the point that the hawks should screw up so you can feel right? what good would come of that? i don’t really think that is what you are about so let’s talk about something productive. let’s talk about how to make josh and marvin starting together at forwards work in the most efficient and best way possible. i am happy to finally see you go along with the idea that it can work and be extremely fruitful. i know you still probably have your doubts, but it seems like you have turned a corner there. hell, i remember before summer league when everyone was talking about shelden starting, a bunch of people were saying we need to trade marvin, and i was talking about the two of them starting together for sure and that marvin was gonna take a second. he’s a rookie, there is an adjustment period no matter how many years of college you played. he cannot just use his strength to box out and hope the ball lands in his lap. he is gonna have to work out and adjust his game to get the most out of himself. dude has never played anything close to 82 games before and everyone wants to trade marvin and are so sure shelden was gonna start? and this coming after everyone, me included, was bemoaning our drafting of him in the first place. how does a guy go from a career backup to supposedly a starter from day one? i’m just saying, there is a lot of nonsense that goes on around here that doesnt even get addressed properly while instead we hear the same bs about bk this, bk that every day. same with the ownership thing. it’s the players and their chemistry together that is going to dictate how we do. if i wanted to talk about how we screwed up not making the move in the 2005 draft for jack or 2006 for marcus williams over and over again, i would. but nothing good comes out of it.this blog is a good thing but dont confuse that with the knowledge that it could be a whole lot better. because it could.

By HB Ando

August 1, 2006 11:24 PM | Link to this

Michael (that was my father’s name by the way), you have either failed to notice, or failed acknowledge significant contributions from me regarding strictly basketball. It’s not a matter of turning the corner on Josh and Marvin. I addressed my thoughts on the issue extensively, and my concern is that while they are 2 of the top 3 talents on the team, and need to see significant minutes as such, the lineup with both of them on the floor will be just as undersized as it was at the tail end of last year, when those two, along with Zaza, were completely unable to defend the paint. While I do expect improvement, vast in fact, from Marvin, as well as Josh, on the offensive end, I don’t believe either has added 25 pounds and is prepared to take a beating on the defensive end against the myriad of big, talented power forwards that permeate the league. If Shelden cannot work his way into significant minutes, then how can we say our frontline is improved defensively, and how can we say we addressed one of our greatest weaknesses.

Do I think our young players will improve this year? Absolutely. Do I think the addition of Speedy Claxton was solid, if unspectacular? Definitely. But the question is, when I analyze this team, do I see a significant increase in wins from last year? The truth is, not so much, in MY opinion.

I know I find myself repeating things here, but as I said last night, or earier today, I wouldn’t if people didn’t come after me daily and seek to call me out on my opinions regarding Billy’s performance as a GM. Everytime I’m specifically challenged on my perspective, I’m forced to renew the conversation by way of defending myself. I guess I should be flattered that so many folks make the choice to include the name Ando in their posts (though it’s certainly a matter of opinion on whether “bad” press is better than no press at all).

Finally, and I really wish people could understand this, there is ongoing confusion on how personally I take my comments on our GM. I’m sure he would take them personally, but my opinions are not build of hate, but simply the conclusion I reach upon my subjective analysis of the decision made by the front office of this franchise, over the last 2+ years. If my conclusions were positive, my posts would be as well. I’m as analytical as anyone you’re likely to meet, so to me, I can only hope that folks won’t continue to misinterpret the overviews of my conclusions as purposefully negative. I’m truly just calling ‘em like I see ‘em. And I’d be much more happy if my home town team weren’t the laughingstock of the NBA. I’d much prefer talking about fighting for a playoff spot, and, if I’m wrong about the fortunes of this team later this season, I’ll be rooting along, offering my take on some unexpected success.

I think it’s takes more guts to make a prediction, based on you insight, and let the chips fall, right or wrong. Offering commentary on occurances, after they’ve happened is just a recap. I like taking a chance and speaking my mind, just to see if I have an accurate grasp on where I see things headed. If I’m wrong, folks can lambast me and call me an idiot. If I’m right, I like the way it feels to know your instincts were accurate, your assessment on point. I don’t know why that should be seen as such a bad thing.

There’s still time for BK to make something out of the Harrington situation. There’s still time and cap space to seek out another experienced big man, in case Shelden isn’t ready for prime time. There’s still the potential for this team to fight for an eighth seed. I’m here challenging this team, this front office, to prove me wrong, to turn the fans back on and give them a product worth spending their hard-earned money on. The power of the fan is in their willingness to use the almighty dollar to speak their peace with the owners of these franchises. Get something done, without any more excuses, and you’ll get the kinder, gentler Ando.

By Ken Strickland

August 1, 2006 11:25 PM | Link to this

Frankly, I am not concerned about who is to blame for this mess. My statement wasn’t an attempt to put any blame on Belkin or the Spirit. At this point, logically, it is a total waste of time and effort for any of us to play the blame game. Logic and common sense should tell us that whether it’s Belkin, BK or the Spirits fault, it won’t change, nor lessen the impact of the situation. We can complain, threaten, boycott, e-mail, etc and conceivably our voices will be heard by the powers that be. But, reality dictates that business interests are the bottom line and will always take priority over everything else. I believe we would be better served if we focused on what we have, rather than what we coulda/shoulda had. What we received in a trade rather than what we gave up. I have chosen to take the high road rather than focusing on the perceived negatives. If you were a basketball player and your team was trailing by a pt with 10sec to go, what do you do. Would you concentrate on what must be done to win the game, or would you spend that time focusing on some earlier play that put your behind. I would focus on winning the game. Which is the most logical choice for you?

By Astro Joe

August 1, 2006 11:52 PM | Link to this

I think that the owners had things on lock down until they got Al off their payroll. This year’s payroll will be fairly constant with last year’s starting payroll, or a little less if you include Collier and Delk’s salaries. I wouldn’t be surprised if their legal counsel advised them to keep things as close to the way they were with Belkin to strengthen their case in court (remember, the case has not yet been heard, just a few motions). If Belkin and the Spirit agreed to operate around $40M prior to the JJ fiasco, then as long as they keep it in the ballpark, they cannot be accused of either devaluing the asset by going lower or bankrupting the asset by going much higher. Obviously, I do not know that, just a theory.

I truly cannot answer the ownership question. My preference is “None of the Above”. Spirit seems completely incompetent to me. Belkin hasn’t reached out to fans like I feel any potential owner should. While he obviously wants the team it is less obvious that he wants the fans. If I had my way, Magic Johnson and Hank Aaron would form an investor group and ride in to save the day (Billy Payne would have been ideal to join that group but he will be busy in Augusta). Short of that, I want an owner to give our GM about a $50M budget to continue to build this team. Upgrade the PG and C positions, upgrade the assistant coaches and hire 2-3 player assistants (like Antoine Carr and maybe Terrell Brandon). I think that BK and Woody can take us to another level, but probably not to a consistent home court playoff team. But a transition now may be too costly this far down the path. That’s why I would give them this upcoming season before making any moves. We need to see this balanced roster in action. Replacing BK likely means replacing Woody. And that means another year of guys in a learning mode. I’m tired of talking about projects, potential and upside. This team is one back-up big from having enough functional parts to gain respectability. We also are coming up of the end of Smiths contract. We need to offer him a consistent environment to assess the value of a long-term deal for him. I still think the jury is out, despite his tremendous second half last year.

If you choose to believe that BK has made a mountain of mistakes, this current roster is not devoid of talent. Woody is progressing as a coach (despite my early concerns that he was way over his head). Switching these guys out before this current roster has a chance to play game 1 would be a tremendous mistake. I see no harm in giving all involved one more season to see if this roster can deliver results.

But regardless of who reads this blog, the Spirit will not likely replace BK during the divorce proceedings and Belkin will replace him regardless of what is said here. So ultimately, listing every wrong deed by BK is a moot point. He gets to stay if the incumbents are reelected and he gets the boot if the other party takes over the house. Our banter is appropriately irrelevant to the reality of what happens next. Its as impactful as yelling (or writing) at the rain.

By doc

August 2, 2006 12:15 AM | Link to this

andy, just got back. that filled in some of the space regarding the two. from the article there were obvious special considerations for the two but they didnt go into detail alluding to it only. btw that was the modus operandi back in the hey day of valdosta football in the 60’s and70’s where they held back all football players with promise in the eighth grade to get them ready for high school and grow them up a bit.

By CJ

August 2, 2006 12:18 AM | Link to this

Oh so abe now someone who doesn’t wholeheart agree with you is a crybaby. Well then, there is no area in which you are willing to debate because any deviant opinion is moot. Does that have anything to do with the Hawks and team decisions..i’m just an observer. The results are what sway my opinion not future speculation.

By CJ

August 2, 2006 12:27 AM | Link to this

Well see there Joe made a decent point without resorting to name calling..even though me,Ando,Joe can differ on the direction we can admit to seeing the other side of things. Thanks Joe, I see the point you are trying to make. As you and the others debate back and forth lets see who is closer to the truth by the end of next season. Either way I hope something positive comes out of it somehow. I’ve accepted that the Hawks are going to go into this season pretty much as is. IMO it is lowered expectations but what can you do but hope for the best. But a clean slate “again..yea i know” seems what will ultimately right the ship.

By doc

August 2, 2006 12:48 AM | Link to this

cj, since you brought up the bulls rebuild, they had a terrible time making it back from when they blew it up after jordan left. it took them 5 or 6 years to get back to .500 and the playofffs in spite of their astute picks of “impact players’ as you put it. which impact players do you refer, chandler and curry or anyone? interestingly enough their winning percentage for years two and three of their rebuild were the same as the hawks was the last two years, yeah that bad cj. i put this out there because memory is short and for some reason people think the bulls did it faster and better. this is also a reprise from an earlier respose to someone making similar false observations about how well the bulls did it. they didnt and if they are the bellweather then the hawks are just a bit ahead of where the bulls were at a similar time in their reconstruct.

yes as flash says, we need to be patient and offer these kids(who make a lot of money) some props and give our support so they stay here when the time comes, if they are truly good. you know create a winning environment for the boys so they want to stay.

By CJ

August 2, 2006 01:04 AM | Link to this

Yea it was a prolonged rebuilding process for them. I regared them as two phases…at one point completely starting over especially after the Brand, Artest purge…the second phase being alot shorter. Good point though.

By ray

August 2, 2006 02:38 AM | Link to this

Ando, I feel ya. What an odd coincidence, my mother is still teaching English, creative writing, etc. She has her doctorate from the University of South Carolina. This was preceeded by two master’s and two specialists. So I can understand the affinity for mixing words, particularly the less commonly used ones. However, in my personal case, I have found them a hendrance in relating to some people, so I refrain from doing so unless the occasion calls for it.

Well, I see Harrington fired his agent. Question is, will this be bad or good news in the end? I shudder to think. But I can say one thing: if this means that we lose Harrington with nothing in return, I’m going to be so pissed. On the other hand, maybe other teams can get involved and we can come out better than we thought we would. I sincerely hope so. The fact that Harrington fired his agent may actually fade some of the heat on Knight. Then again, it may be yet another arrow pointed at him. Either way, Knight needs to get something done soon.

By Glenn

August 2, 2006 08:25 AM | Link to this

On the good side the Pacers only offered a lottery protected one & cash. On the bad side it seems most NBA rosters have been set & I guess now we will have to wait over 2 weeks to rap this up & pursue a big man. This lends credence to the rumors that the Pacers & big Al were not able to hammer out a contract. Its going to be interesting to see if the offers improve or due to the late date & ability to sign Al with his new high powered agent if they don’t even get lamer or worse non existent. I think the Hawks should learn from Al who is obviously taking the situation in his own hands. Proactivity is usually a GOOD thing.

By roan st

August 2, 2006 08:30 AM | Link to this

The holdup in the harrington deal is the 3 million in cash. That is what an Indiana sports reporter is saying on real gm website. The pacers are willing to take on edwards and part with the draft pick but they don’t want to fork over 3 million dollars. So all the billy bashers can focus their blame on ownership because they are the ones desperate for funds and apparentley respondsible for holding up the deal. If Indiana does decide to pay the money they are going to want to scale back the draft pick. So if we end up with 3 million and a draft pick that is less than stellar blame those stupid a*s owners.

By roan st

August 2, 2006 08:40 AM | Link to this

So what, you may ask, is holding up this deal?

Apparently after agreeing in principal to sign-and-trade Harrington to the Pacers, the Hawks have decided they want Indiana to agree on a few stipulations. Atlanta wants Indiana to send them a future first round pick, fork over $3 million in cold hard cash, and take on the contract of another former Pacer, John Edwards.

Taking on John Edwards isn’t a problem for Indiana, they acquired another trade exception in the deal that sent Anthony Johnson to the Mavericks, and it’s worth more than enough to cover Edwards’ salary. A draft pick isn’t a huge deal either, although it would be nice for Indiana to hold onto a valuable pick. Protection would be nice, or maybe even a pair of second rounders - if Atlanta would agree to it.

The real problem lies in the reported amount of cash that the Hawks want the Pacers to send their way in exchange for Harrington. $3 million is the most a team can offer another as part of a trade, and it’s obvious why Atlanta would like as much cap relief and cash out of the deal as possible. It’s no secret that the Hawks ownership group is engaged in a legal battle with former part-owner Steve Belkin, who wants to keep control of the team. That’s why they’d like to get as much cash as possible as opposed to taking some of Indiana’s players in return for Harrington.

By roan st

August 2, 2006 08:48 AM | Link to this

Some of you need to quit living in this blog and start reading more national news, it might help you gain a better perspective of whats really happening. Opinions on the this blog are starting to turn into fact for some. The story above tells me that billy had an agreement done long ago on the sign and trade but the owners are so desperate for cash that they are the ones holding up the deal.

By Glenn

August 2, 2006 08:51 AM | Link to this

Because the Hawks want more cash Al fired his agent ? There is something else going on.

By Astro Joe

August 2, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

A rumor from another site suggested that Al was upset that his agent was pushing him toward a 6 year $57M deal when Golden State was willing to pay $66M. Of course, Indiana is locked into a certain slot if the Hawks don’t take back players. Of course, this is purely speculation, but it does feel like Al must not be too thrilled with some aspect of the proposed contract if he fired his agent.

By newkid

August 2, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

BP, a couple of weeks back we exchanged a few posts regarding the possibility that Al might eventually decide that idleness was not in his best interest as S/T discussions between the Pacers and the Hawks dragged on. Got the impression then that you were in touch with Al. Can you offer us any inside insight on his current thinking and direction? Thanks.

BTW, I’m not sure if there continues to be mutual interest between Chicago and Al, but looks like the Bulls might just have sufficient space under the cap to pick Al up sans S/T.

By HB Ando

August 2, 2006 09:40 AM | Link to this

Exactly, Glen. I’m having a truly difficult time tying Al changing agents to the Spirit making Billy’s job difficult. Look, I’ve already said I’ll rest my case on Billy for the time being, see what other transactions occur before camp, and see if this team is ready to take it up a notch, from a wins and losses standpoint. So for all you folks who believe in Billy, quit making arcane references to how nothing is his fault, because you just incite me to start ranting again, and I’m tired of talking about it.

Joe, thanks for your honest opinion on the “perfect world”. No doubt, at this stage, that we would all like a “do over” on our ownership situation (don’t think Stern would, too?).

This Al/agent thing is intriguing with possibilities. I hope we won’t have to wait the 15-day waiting period before getting some insight into what changes it may create for the team. I mean, I know we’re beaten down, but does anyone really believe that $3 million and a lottery-protected first round draft choice is adequate currency for Al Harrington?

Roan, don’t forget, that the only difference between what you read is a matter of placing the words, “national” and “local” in front of the word “rumor”. With Al’s situation, it becomes pretty clear that not many insiders were telling folks what was really going on. We’ve been told it was nearly a done deal, and then Al fires Miller.

Ray, it comes as no surprise for me to hear about your Mom. Your words always have the pace and measure of someone who grew up with an English teacher. I’m glad you came on back to the blog and hope you can stick around this season.

By HB Ando

August 2, 2006 10:01 AM | Link to this

newkid, the Bulls have a handful of young players that will be coming up for big raises in the near future, and I believe they will maintain cap flexibility for both that, as well as additions they may need mid-season, as they seek to compete for a championship this year. I believe that they had Al as their #2 “big” acquisition target, and the signing of Big Ben ended their interest.

The essence of the sign and trade is giving teams already at the cap the ability to take on a free agent like Al, by matching salaries. So truly, just about anyone who is serious in their interest, and willing to bid, could get back in this thing. Let’s wait and see.

By jhan

August 2, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

I can only hope this opens up the talks with other teams. I was not overly thrilled with a #1 and cash for Al. There has to be a better deal out there. We really should be getting a #1 & a serviceable player for Al. This does make me wonder if Al is not worth quite as much as we think. You’d have to think that if Indy thought Al would put them over the top the $3M would not make any difference.

By HB Ando

August 2, 2006 10:35 AM | Link to this

jhan, not if Joe is right, and it’s about broke-a*s owners, or if they don’t respect the front office’s negotiating ability. But I do think this means we may get back in the game with some other folks (and if we do end up taking on a quality player, with similar salary to Al’s new deal, that would pretty much minimize Joe’s assertion that Billy’s inactivity has been about financial lockdown). In some ways, it makes you wonder about Sekou’s assertion that this blog is far more well read than we know. Are our responses used as a barometer of fan reaction? Do folks’ indignance at getting so little for Al play a role in the deal not closing? I have serious doubt, but, you never really know, as the internet certainly has become a powerful medium for fans’ voices to be heard. I’m almost re-energized by the mere potential that something better might come of this.

By Astro Joe

August 2, 2006 10:58 AM | Link to this

You’re right, Ando. If our salaries increase significantly over last year’s with whatever happens with Al, it blows my theory away. And if we take on less than $6M in real salaries plus a pick or two, does that invalidate your arguement that BK spent the year combing his afro and playing computer games? Just trying to figure out if this becomes a measuring stick for each of us or just me.

Delk, Al and Collier made in the area of $12M last year. We added about $6M with Speedy’s deal. If we take back $8M in a deal for Al, we would have grown our payroll by a whopping 5% year-over-year. Add in another big man (like Lo Wright or Cato) and your probably increasing payroll by maybe 10%. I would consider that significant and a theory buster.

(I use insidehoops.com for salary information on players and teams).

By mountain_jim

August 2, 2006 12:15 PM | Link to this

This also makes you wonder just what Sekou knew or was hearing when he hinted above about what has come to pass:

“But I’m not sure what becomes of this deal from here on out. I can see some seismic shift in this entire drama coming in the next few days. I mean, how long can anyone expect Al Harrington to deal with the waiting before he gets fed up and decides to pursue another course of action?”

That’s a pretty accurate hint he knew this was up he gave right there….

By Sekou Smith

August 2, 2006 12:37 PM | Link to this

Good catch Jim. I couldn’t believe everyone looked over that graph and didn’t ask me what might be going on. For the record, the Indiana deal is still viable, maybe just in a different form. And as far as what the change of agent does, let’s just say that Arn Tellem has a very interesting client roster that is very familiar to the Hawks (Joe Johnson, Shelden Williams). He also had six first round picks in the June draft and a reputation as an agent who gets deals done and whose clients smile all the way to the bank. I can’t tell anyone that he does anything that Andy Miller does not. But I imagine his addition will bring about a much swifted pace to these negotiations.

By Sekou Smith

August 2, 2006 12:41 PM | Link to this

Much swifter was the phrase I was looking for. Pardon me for the slip. I just came from outside and I think the heat jacked my typing skills momentarily.

By Astro Joe

August 2, 2006 12:59 PM | Link to this

Sekou, care to tell us who will win the NBA Finals next year? Your bloggers should benefit from your forecasting skills and I’m sure that we could find someone in Atlanta to take a bet.

By the way, when are you headed to Europe for that in-depth report on David Anderson and Cenk Akyol?

By Ken Strickland

August 2, 2006 01:02 PM | Link to this

SEKOU, I think what most of us are concerned about, but haven’t asked, are the odds of the Hawks get nothing in return for Harrington. Also, what are the chances the Hawks acquire a servicable BIG after the S&T is completed? And, what is your take on the teams chances for the upcoming season?

By mountain_jim

August 2, 2006 01:41 PM | Link to this

This from the Denver Post shows interest in Al is still out there:

“Atlanta Hawks forward Al Harrington is expected to fire his agent Andy Miller, according to a source. Harrington had been expected to be involved in a sign-and-trade deal with Indiana. Once he hires a new agent, likely to be Arn Tellem, the bidding on Harrington is expected to start over. The Nuggets are expected to be among the teams interested if that happens. They would likely need to be involved in a sign-and-trade to make it work from a financial standpoint. …”

By mountain_jim

August 2, 2006 01:43 PM | Link to this

Sorry - left off the link: http://www.denverpost.com/nuggets/ci_4123143

By HB Ando

August 2, 2006 01:49 PM | Link to this

Joe, to a lesser extent, the answer is yes. And I only say that from the standpoint that it was the Spirit who took the very public stance that they wouldn’t stand for Belkin’s desire to run the team on the cheap. So, I’m not sure I’ll take a full year of poor roster management completely off of Billy’s head (since I still think there are mutually exclusive components, including the draft record, that comprise my overall assessment of Billy), as much as I’ll agree that no one else could do much better this summer, with the current state of affairs. I’m not looking to hold you to any different standard than you hold me, with regards to objectifying our opinions. I probably put more effort into trying to reinforce my opinions, with detailed explanations, than anyone here. So it always cracks me up when people (as I’ve said, at least you try to address differences in our opinions on the detail level) ignore any reference the basis for the conclusions and just rail about being a “hater”. If you don’t agree with me, then take the time to break down my position. Hate is an emotion, not a conclusion. We’re talking about a sport with objectifiable means of assessing success and failure.

By HB Ando

August 2, 2006 02:06 PM | Link to this

Flash, your boy, Pops, is signing a one-year deal with Dallas. I guess he’s good enough for the Western Conference champs, but we really don’t need anymore big men anyway………..

By lacsho

August 2, 2006 02:25 PM | Link to this

Sekou thanks for the insight. Ken perhaps you may need to read in between the lines of Sekou’s last post too. I just Google Arn Tellem; this guy is a monster, and he’s a force to be delt with in the NBA and pro baseball. Not to many teams, want to get on this guys bad side. Now does the Shelden draft pick make since. Who knows what was promised behind closed doors.As the world turns This could be a best seller, especially if the Hawks start to consistently make the playoffs. I see a better S&T coming down the line. The Hawks and Tellem have been loyal to each other, so I really expect a better deal..

By lacsho

August 2, 2006 02:26 PM | Link to this

Tellem is known for placing his clients in the right situations.

By Astro Joe

August 2, 2006 02:29 PM | Link to this

Okay, all of those high powered readers of this blog, here’s one to consider:

Trade Al to the Pistons for Dale Davis, a re-signed Kelvin Cato (1 year $3.5M) and the Orlando ‘07 1st rounder. We’d get a good pick, a good big and can waive the other big immediately (for him to return to the Pistons). I think that would get Al his 6-year $66M deal.

By mountain_jim

August 2, 2006 02:39 PM | Link to this

The Orlando 1st rounder looks juicier than an Indiana first, that’s for sure.

When this agent-firing news came out, my first thought was to remember that Indiana TV station that reported the Al deal as 99% done and used it to tease their ratings up for a night… Then the folks at the Pacer’s Digest all starting laughing at BK and the Hawks when they heard no players from them would be involved that same night..

It would serve Indiana right to lose Al by having overplayed their hand and tried to make the deal even more one-sided by gettting pick-protection and less money included, thinking their position was so strong.

And I say all that not knowing the true terms of the deal(s), just the various rumoured reports about it.

By Ken Strickland

August 2, 2006 02:47 PM | Link to this

LACSHO, I see where you are coming from. We aren’t likely to get less than Indy was offering, so we may very well come out ahead when all of this is over.

By newkid

August 2, 2006 02:55 PM | Link to this

Joe, with Rasheed at the 4 (3 years remaining on his deal) and Tayshaun at the 3 (I think this is his contract year), would Dumars be at all interested in inking a 6/66 deal for Al? Chuancey’s soon up for bigger bucks as well, so I’d guess that Dumars says thanks, but no thanks.

By doc

August 2, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

joe, to further your economic statements the whole minimum and maximum cap moved up greater than 10% from last year to this. from what i have seen thus far is a financial responsibility by the hawks that may be less than the “effective” minimum if they could have swung a deal to get 3 mil back, get rid of al and edward’s contracts and sign a big for 3 to 5 mil and may be even less than last years out lay.

not too sure denver has what we want so i am not thrilled about their interest. didnt they give away all of their firsts to get a player that they cant give away?

By Astro Joe

August 2, 2006 04:39 PM | Link to this

Doc, are you making reference to the media darling Kiki who also signed Earl Watson to a 4 year deal and then traded him at mid-season and never acquired a decent SG during his tenure as GM? The same Kiki who gave a max contract to the oft-injured Kenyon on top of a hefty contract to the oft-injured Camby? The one that Chad Ford adored yet doesn’t currently have a job? But our GM (and Zeke) are the only ones that make mistakes.

Doc, by the way, I loved the “Shadow” reference from yesterday. My dad told me about those old radios shows and would often say to me “who knows? The Shadow knows”. Thanks for giving me a nice memory of my Dad.

By brandon

August 2, 2006 04:52 PM | Link to this

i have not posted in a year, because this franchise is such a joke, but like the rest of you i am addicted. worst GM’s in NBA: 1. billy knight

By brandon

August 2, 2006 04:56 PM | Link to this

hit the wrong button, just like bk, anyway, worst GM’s— 1. billy knight 2. tie—danny ainge, isiah thomas see you next year, hope we have a new gm and ownership group, the win total will be roughly the same.