Hawks

By Astro Joe

May 1, 2006 05:06 PM | Link to this

Sounds like you’ve gone LA-LA. At least we’re off the grill. The one legit reason why Kobe should not have gotten the MVP this season? His “Stan The Man Lariat” (can anyone else go old school wrestling with me?) of Mike Miller led to the Lakers losing that game against Memphis and the 2 when he was suspended. Stupid move that cost them playoff positioning. Now, in hindsight of course, this match-up with Phoenix is a blessing, but it was still a stupid move for a guy who is way to important for his team. I think I would have voted for Dirk, but no one asked for my opinion.

Hey Sekou, Woody mentioned that he wanted to take some of the young Hawks to a playoff game this season, do you know if that has happened or if it is going to happen? I thought it was a great idea for them to take in the atmosphere. I hope that he follows through.

By Adam

May 1, 2006 05:24 PM | Link to this

Perhaps I’m very much out-of-the know, but from what I do know about the MVP award, Kobe or Lebron, as well as possibly Dirk, should be the only names in the conversation. I can’t stand the Lakers, and I’m deeply disturbed still by Kobe’s, um, “antics,” but giving Nash the award for a second consecutive year is preposterous and, potentially, offensive. Especially in a year where so many guys played so well! Let’s just say this won’t be the only blog where folks express their disgust at this travesty.

And just to anticipate the inevitable comparison: Reggie Bush will not be Michael Jordan, and likewise, Mario Williams will not be Sam Bowie. That’s not to say the Texans won’t regret their decision. But it is to say that NFL ‘pundits’ - perhaps the most absurd allotment of naval-gazers in the sportswriting world - know not of what they speak when they compare someone to a Jordan every three years. And likewise - this one also goes out to the writers - Bush is not the answer to the people of New Orleans’ problems. They need homes and a civil infrastructure, not running backs.

Kudos to Sekou for a great post; would love to see both a Clippers victory and the immigration rallies tonight. Keep it up…

By buddy

May 1, 2006 05:30 PM | Link to this

It’s still the Dirty Souf ain’t it?

By Kappy

May 1, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Al to the Lakers?? For maybe any combo of mihm, smush, vujacic?

we cant just let al walk. and if the inability of management to settle their differences, leads to an inability for BK to make a deal, I WILL NOT BE HAPPY!!!!!!!!

but its possible this happens. scary.

By Luke

May 1, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

Saw this on another blog about Batista. Thought it would be important to have some visibility for the young lad.

Batista is here in Uruguay, and he was on a TV show today, and he saids something that make me think “my teammates were laughing and playing cards after we were beated; i’d said to them why are you laughing after we have beated for 20 points”. What is so funny about loosing? So the only thing important is the money, and as long as they continue getting payed, doesnt matter if their loose. In my country if a team loose could happen anything but lough. Maybe we are savages.

By Samuel

May 1, 2006 07:31 PM | Link to this

Cuz,

Ole Abe must be turning over in his grave.I hea ya about that La traffic. 60 mile traffic jams can definately ruin your day. I lived in Cali for about 5 years and hated it. Of course I lived in “The Hellhole of North America”, Barstow. I did like BigBear,Monterey and Venice Beach though. I also loved driving to Vegas. No speed limit. How bout this for a fish story. Me and a buddy of mine were going from Barstow to Vegas one late night and ran out of gas(fortunately on top of the mountain) and coasted for 26 miles. I kid you not.

I still say Nash is MVP. Not the best player by a long shot but he is Most valuable to his team plus the awards are not about the post season. I can’t say about the Jason Kidd years but I still would say Nash, Kobe or LeBron. Chancey is still Mr. Big shot and a better all around PG but those Pistons also didn’t win any rings til Sheed got there either. Take Chauncey awad and they still make the playoffs. Try that with LA, Cleveland or Pheonix.

On the NFL draft. I was POed about how the Titans did my boy McNair. You know how Tupelo and the Family luv them Alcorn Braves.They gave me reason to start back pulling for them when they got Vince and L. White. The Falcons really surprised me with the Norwood pick. I’m anxious to see how he does playing with real talent. If he could do “anything at all” playing with my pitifull Bullies he should “show out” with the Falcons. 4.3 is 4.3.

It still boggles my mind how a player like DJ Shockley can still be on the board in the 7th round. I believe the Falcons got a steal and now should be able to move Shaub for a down lineman or two.

That Laker game was exciting. Kobe is moving more and more into MJ territory. This has to be the most competitive 1st round matchups in a long time. The possibility of a “Hallway” series between La and La seems more evident. How unlucky can you get though if you’re the Clippers. That pretty much negates their home court advantage they worked for all season. With the Spurs all of a sudden looking very Old and beatable, Kobe will continue to smell blood and could take them Lakers all the way to the NBA Finals.

I’m a “House” man myself. That guy reminds me of Doc.

By A Thinking Fan

May 1, 2006 09:03 PM | Link to this

Steve Nash is a system MVP

By doc

May 1, 2006 11:06 PM | Link to this

man, did i miss a bit this past several days being secluded at a retreat. order doesnt prevail and is it the changing of the guard? seems like one of the teams that appeared able to be a bit competitive against the big boys will end up being the only four and out team.

sam dude, how bout them lakers? still got two balls on the court?sad to see the fantasy die with the suns but losing kurt hurt them and many wrote that two months ago, especially after they held it together losing their main man amare. it was fun to see the ragtag team hold it together and overachieve. they aint dead yet as they apparantly had kobe put a stake in them to go to the sekou bar-b-q grill. we will find out if it went to their heart when they play the next one at home.

sam, actually glad to see kobe moving on to the level that he has been capable of and the path i thought he was on before he went the entitled athelete trip and got caught. he has also had to continue to swallow a lot this year and adapt to the zen man coming back and has been the company man by all appearances. as far as the zen man, i read his book ten years ago and really like his appproach and have been a fan of his, if not the lakers necesarily.

also honored to be in the same category as you and mentioned in the same paragraph. admire your dignity and grace dude.

honest, good stuff, i feel the love man. it was a good piece of work. glad you are contributing. it is about relationship my friend when you come to the liars table. i really dont take this too seriously unless, those that i find bringing it on a regular basis and doing some digging or feel the passion get ambushed then i fall back into the defender mode. found a lot of humor in what you said just didnt appreciate the lack fo dignity in your swipe at the one who brings some beauty to this page when she isnt riled up and needs the spell check to keep us in line. i think you went overboard there and would expect a real man to apologize. personaly have dealt with things a lot more significant in life and work than nba basketball and again dont take this seriously. with that said the two stupid guys were at the top of the fantasy league when all was said and done and still standing. just bring it next year honest and join in the fun. to the fantasy guys i know it didnt mean a thing in regards to intelligence.

flash, did you like so much saying i was wrong you had to post it twice? why did you stop at that, go ahead and do it four or five times, man. maybe, i overstated my point on the rip but the point was to say the pistons have pulled together a championship team with five guy that werent distinguished before they got together and it all doesnt have to be done with the draft. in other words lets not get too hung up on what is available in 2007. it is just as important who is out there that is being overlooked like diaw was here last year and coach them up.

also not impressed with the wiz owners take that he knew how good rip was and didnt want him to go, after all he was the owner and probably had time to negate the deal. seems as though he is saving face and he is making mj to be the fall guy when ultimate responsibility resided with him if he had that much insight as he professed to have in the first place. he does have the money so he can say what he wants.

flash, you would have enjoyed the retreat and hope that some day we get to sit and share experience beyond this format.

btw, has anyone ever trusted anyone who dares to call himself honest? just asking, as it always seemed closer to truth when someone else described another person that way rather than themselves. guess i learned it from seeing so many commercials on the tube in the old days about coming down to the honest so and so’s used car lot.

continue to enjoy the repartee with all.

By St. Bernard

May 1, 2006 11:21 PM | Link to this

Take Nash away from Diaw and tell me if he wins the 6th man award or if he looks like he did last year with the Hawks. In my opinion anyone who can make Diaw a star deserves MVP.

Kobe is special, but maybe he’ll take something from the Nash MVP and become a little more team and less me. Lebron will probably have a 5 or 6 year MVP run in the not so distance future, so I don’t feel bad having him wait one more year. Mark my words: Next year’s MVP will be King James.

By Samuel

May 2, 2006 06:36 AM | Link to this

Doc,

Glad you’re back. You must have really been on a serious retreat. No internet. I don’t know if I could handle that.

Actually, I don’t think that Thomas could play any better than the other Thomas. Man that Pheonix system is awesome.

As usual, great work Cuz on the Diaw article. Glad to know you’re actually doing some work out there in Hollywood. If you want to call that work. Damn, im jealous.

By the way, I think i’m 2 for 2 or something on the End of the Year Awards.

By The Flash

May 2, 2006 10:03 AM | Link to this

Doc, didn’t mean to rag on you for your take on Detroit or on Rip. Actually bragging on myself. When I was a young guy, used to play on Sundays in a game with Osnos (I think he shortened his name or his daughter did at least), with a high school teammate of mine. When ran into him years later, got to chatting; he said that MJ really, really pushed on the Rip trade, made it like a me or him thing, and Polin caved. When it blew up with Stack, Polin held him responsible. Also said Polin also held MJ accountable for Kwame. Forced that too. The guy had no reason to bs me I don’t think. Who knows though?

Sorry for bragging at your expense. NBL and respect, Doc, for real.

Samuel your latest take captured my take on the MVP thing and went off terrifically. Seems like there’s a small group of you guys and one great, great broad who should be given some sort of official status by the club to give input to the GM, or maybe replace him (rule by committe with HB having the major voice).

Thinking Man, I’m all for eliminating useless words, but I can’t tell whether you are saying Nash’s valued is diminished by being a “system MVP,” or enhanced. I suspect its the diminished one, or maybe a little of both with a little more to the diminished one, or maybe … . Actually, I understand your point exactly, which kind of scares me, even more so because I think I agree.

I am gonna have to get to hawk town at some point and meet you all. Only thing is, I’m not sure you are ready for it. Later.

By jc

May 2, 2006 10:23 AM | Link to this

Are the hawks playing in the summer league in Utah again and when is it? Are all our young guys going to play?

Nash is the MVP. With no inside presence, even less than the Hawks, and still win that many games, ridiculous results.

I don’t think Al plays enough defense or rebounds enough for Phil Jackson. Can’t see him playing for the purple and gold.

By HB Ando

May 2, 2006 11:12 AM | Link to this

There’s just no right answer on the Nash issue. He was not my pick, not even top-3 (Kobe, LeBron and Dirk). I don’t agree with Sekou, because Billups was one of 4 all-stars. How often do you draw double-teams when you’re one of 4. Teams have to defend Detroit straight up, and every good player in the league can put up numbers against heads’ up D. And I could get 8-9 dimes a night passing to Rip, Prince and ‘Sheed, with an oop or two tossed Big Ben’s way.

That being said, Phoenix’s record, without Amare, was pretty amazing. And if you diminish the play of ALL their players as “system” players, then does D’Antoni get all the credit? I mean how many times have you heard that players play and coaches coach? I think minimizing Diaw as a system player is just wrong. So same with Nash. He’s playing just as Billy envisioned when he drafted him. He was mis-utilized here, soured on the staff, and they on him, and dumped. With a fresh start, he showed everyone what he could do. I’m sure that his development has led to Woody taking a look at how he deals with young guys, as has the experience of coaching the youngest team in the league the last two years. I’m guessing he’d handle the Diaw situation a little differently if he had it to do over again.

I think giving Nash the award two years in a row was bad in a historic context. Far greater players never received that honor, and in leiu of a no-brainer for the award, moving it around a bit is better for the game. Lebron is going to win a ton of ‘em, so Dirk or Kobe would have been better choices (Kobe most of all). It says a lot that even Nash said he thought Dirk should have won it this year.

I’m white, in case some of you didn’t know it (or, more importantly, care), and I hate it when race becomes a divisive issue on our board. And I’m not interested in getting folks all fired up, but I can’t help but wonder about the role Nash’s being white plays in this choice. Kind of has the “great white hope” feel to it.

SS may not feel comfortable directly commenting on that statement, but I’d be curious what folks think about that.

By HB Ando

May 2, 2006 11:19 AM | Link to this

Flash, that was a very cool breakdown of footwork. Made me realize how little footwork ever came into play with my own game. It also reminds me how much I appreciate seeing young big men who have great footwork. And makes me miss watching Hakeem the Dream in the post……..

By Jameyan

May 2, 2006 11:26 AM | Link to this

Okay! Can someone tell me if these Iverson to Atlanta rumors are true. The Philadelphia Daily News has reported Philadelphia Daily News columnist Phil Jasner (registration required): “I’ve gotten a bunch of e-mails from fans insisting that the answer would be to trade Iverson to Minnesota for Kevin Garnett… I used to think a franchise struggling at the box office - perhaps Atlanta or Memphis - would jump at the chance to add Iverson, even if for only a year or two, to create interest and cash flow.”

By The Flash

May 2, 2006 11:31 AM | Link to this

Maybe a little, but I really think that it’s a function of competence and trust, makes the game so enjoyable to watch. Nash has extraordinary skills but trusts his teammates implicitly to make plays and they in turn trust him implicitly to continually give him touches so he can be involved with the movement of the ball to an extraordinary degree in a system in which the ball moves at a pace and to a degree and in ways that is extraordinary.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but watching Phoenix play is about as good as NBA action this season got. Nash was the lead player in a truly ensemble cast. It is what I think we all love about the game. Others are capable of it, aka Kobe in the triangle; maybe more and more superstars will start getting the message. We all benefit. Nash was a good choice. that’s enough for me. Said it going in and believe it more so now.

By the Flash

May 2, 2006 11:55 AM | Link to this

Why I said maybe a little. Nash plays under the rim. He also rarely walks at the beginning or end of moves, and seems to depend on his sense of momentum (his, the other guys on his team, and their respective defenders), which is truly extraordinary, to an extraordinary degree.

Nearly all great players have a terrfic sense of momentum that is an essential part of their games. We see it more with Nash, and I think it is engaging.

Do we see it to the same degree with Kobe and LeBron. I don’t think so. Why? Because the sensational, unbelievable other things that they do eclipse it, and they depend on it less. There are costs associated with the sensational. Walks and palming go uncalled, even when they are blatant. Guys like AI and Vince go flying all over the place, landing on hard floors in ways that to me are truly unimaginably dangerous. There is a disconnect element to these type performances. Do they detract from the game? John Wooden recommended making dunking illegal. Would love to hear his explanation for that.

By HB Ando

May 2, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Again, on Nash, no right or wrong answer. And sound arguments on both sides…..But does playing the game the “right” way, from a purists’ standpoint, make him the MVP? I’m still trying to break down this arguement that Diaw’s play is a product of D’Antoni’s system. Does that mean that Nash’s is as well? How can that be true of one player but not another? Nash’s numbers are better in Phoenix than they were in Dallas, which also was one of the most free-flowing offensive teams (via Nellie). If it’s the system, don’t you then get into the argument that’s been used to not vote Coor’s Field hitters as MVP in baseball (with the park being synonymous with the “system” in terms of it’s impact on artificially inflating individual numbers)? Isn’t it D’Antoni who should take down COY for winning without Stoudemire and turning a dog (according to so many people here) like Diaw into the most improved player in the league? And isn’t Sekou’s point about Kidd pretty valid? I don’t know. I guess these argements happen ever season around awards time (in every sport). I knew Pujols would get the MVP in baseball last year, but thought Andruw Jones deserved it. It wasn’t that Pujols wasn’t deserving, but I KNEW baseball writers would make up for giving it to Bonds the previous two years, when Pujols was the choice if a writer was honest with what they all knew: that Bonds was a cheat. It was a make-up vote and I predicted it a month before the season ended.

Jam, I think the rumors are just that. But I’ve been a proponent before, including in a recent e-mail to Levenson and Seydel (that, oddly, went unanswered) of building the core over the next several years, but importing a great individual talent for a couple of years to put an interesting product on the floor immediately. There are pros and cons to such a move (specifically with Iverson, who seems to inhibit the development of young players as he dominates the ball on the offensive end). Seems like a Iverson/Marbury trade might be a more realistic scenario. But we still just don’t know whether Al’s inclination is to walk away or play ball with a sign-and-trade. And, given the lack of communication, in general, from Billy, I can’ see how we’ll truly know until something happens.

By HB Ando

May 2, 2006 12:07 PM | Link to this

A perfect system fit enhances a players abilities. It does not MAKE you into a player. For any team where ball movement is a coaching staff’s priority, Diaw would be capable of putting up similar numbers. Do not be surprised if his assist average goes up even further next year with the return of Amare, who turns almost all entry passes into baskets………

“As time passed, D’Antoni realized they had found a gem, a player who could play multiple positions. A player who Monday was named the NBA’s Most Improved Player. “I don’t know how many times we were in front of the film, going: ‘Man, this guy knows how to play,’ ” D’Antoni said at a news conference. “His potential is unlimited.” Diaw received 489 points from a panel of 124 sports writers and broadcasters. New Orleans forward David West finished second with 283. “It’s always good when people recognize your work,” said Diaw, 24. “You try to get better, not only for yourself, but the principal goal is get better to be able to help your team.” Arizona Republic

By Basketball Princess

May 2, 2006 12:30 PM | Link to this

I think the vote went to Steve Nash because what he has brought to his team as a whole. I mean let’s look at it from this perspective. Does Chauncy Billups make his teammates better or are they already great players, and has anyone on the team gone thru vast improvements? Yes, their record was good but it is still about what the candidate brings to the team. Not just stats.

Kobe…The things he is doing now for his team is a end of a season to late. Should he have demonstrated all these new found qualities in being a team player that his teammates have so raved about it might have been a little different. Besides the Lakers lost 10 more games than the Suns

Bron-Bron..He should have developed being that clutch time, go to guy when the game is on the line mentality before the play-offs. To many times during the season he scurried away from this responsibility. He was too afraid to loose the game. That’s one of the reasons that made MJ a MVP. 26 times he was trusted to take the winning shot and he missed. But kept at it until he sank the shot against the JAZZ in 98 when the Bulls won their 6th title.

By doc

May 2, 2006 12:47 PM | Link to this

ando i dont think it is a white thing as maybe the build up to recognizing someone that may have different skills that havent been acknowledged for a long time. i dont know if stockton ever got the recognition that he deserved and that oversight is filtering nash’s way. it also goes back to the couz era of the really great floor general taking his team to greater heights. all said would love to see how the suns would have done with their two big men on the floor with the rest of them. toop hustle wouldnt be standing so tall now.

as far as system it is getting players to buy into a philosophy whether it is d’antonio, detroit’s or the zen man’s; it involves coaching em up baby with a concerted effort to a goal. nash is the man for that group of guys as he honestly might not have made much more of a difference at dallas. he sure did in phoenix, what they improved the most wins over any team in history except san antonio when they got the big maritime boy back after injury and fell into the first pick to get duncan? remember nash was the only thing added that year to go from clowns to princes.

flash just kidding back with you and your computer kink or your old man tremor, :-) kind of hard to offend this thick skin of love man. you better hurry to get the big a way as the smog alerts are beginning to show. it is amazing what fear does to people and how the press fosters it even without trying. even if you dont have a respiratory problem you are susceptable. i can handle it, if it is later in the summer we can head to couple of beautiful waterfalls just off the appy trail, one discovered this weekend.

yeah sam without the tube too, really had to dig to catch up last night.

By honest abe

May 2, 2006 01:18 PM | Link to this

doc—- don’t want to sound like an a**, but since I am already perceived as one…. “honest abe” historical reference……. my name is abe… i’m not calling myself honest…tried to be clever but obviously that one must’ve flown right over… doctor sir….

i swear, i think in all my hate…i actually have grown fond of this blog..i know awwwwww… i mean no matter how i look at it…we’re in the minority, we’ve all lost our minds. we’re actually hawks fans! we total around 50 strong….that is extremely rare indeed! so for all the unneccessary name calling whatever..it was in good fun…if you took it personally get a life…i take all your shots in stride as well..

go back around a month or so…you’ll see my playoff surprise was the clippers….now they have a legitimate chance at the western conference finals…couldn’t happen to a better person in brand…probably the most underrated player in the past decade….

i’ve always been a kobe fan but it’s so much more fun watching him, when he’s not forcing the issue……makes you wonder if he had matured a little earlier, how many rings would he have by now?

there are many instances in sports where a players performance can be attributed to the system he plays in….Terrell Davis in Denver, Kenyon Martin in Jersey, Andre Rison Falcons, priest lauderdale hawks..heh

By honest abe

May 2, 2006 01:40 PM | Link to this

ss…my bad if you weren’t the one that blocked me.. yes i have taken a sip of some haterade…i would love to be a beat writer for some team…unfortunately i wasn’t blessed with much journalistic talent:)

By HB Ando

May 2, 2006 01:59 PM | Link to this

Abe, if you go back to the original discussions about MVP candidates, you’ll find that Brand was my dark horse for the pick. I can’t find enough ways to appreciate his abilities. Guess we can agree on something……

By The Flash

May 2, 2006 02:54 PM | Link to this

Abe, well put, about the bloggers. Very well put. And, I think that it’ll be cool to have been here at the beginning, when things were about to take off. As the great bard said (this is from Henry V, but I actually heard it in a movie with Danny Divito who was an English teacher who took a job trying to teach a group of supposed dummies enough so they could complete basic, pretty good flick actually). Anyway, here goes, only a part of it grabbed off the net:

“We few, we happy few, we band of brothers (and one great, great broad). For he today that sheds his blood with me Shall be my brother; be he ne’er so vile, This day shall gentle his condition. And gentlemen in England (Atlanta) now abed Shall think themselves accursed they were not here, And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks That fought with us upon Saint Crispin’s day.”

Now that’s what I call bloggin. What say you, Sekou. Get your attention now, my man!

By jlewis

May 2, 2006 03:03 PM | Link to this

In regard to Nash, I really believe he is the MVP, the guy is just flat out good. Diaw is a product of the system, he and Tim Thomas, how good Diaw actually is will show when Stoudemire comes back. Quite simply, Stoudemire does not pass, rebound or defend, he has a big reputation because he can dunk, that’s it. Diaw is a product of the system because a “player” can play, no matter what system he is in. Case in point, Joe Johnson, he did it in Phoenix, he’s doing it in ATL. Truth be known, why they still respect him from the players all the way to the coaching staff is because he covered for everyone on the team last year. He guarded the opposing teams best offensive player, so you’re looking at Ray Allen, Kobe, etc, nightly, he handled the ball with Nash, the reason Nash made the mistakes Sunday is that no one else wanted the ball. If the hawks get a big man and a point guard, they can be the 4-5th seed in the playoffs next year. The NBA is becoming like the NFL, parity.

By A Thinking Fan

May 2, 2006 03:30 PM | Link to this

It’s about the “Stage of the Payoffs,” and Phx better not get ran off of it. I hear you all about the regular season, but it is SHOWTIME and MONEY TIME! Of course the ATL fanbase hasn’t seen it sooooo long… NASH, put-up or shut-up!!! At least that what the Ladies say - Right Flash?

By Basketball Princess

May 2, 2006 03:50 PM | Link to this

Sorry JLewis, but you can not call DIAW a system player yet. He’s only been in 2 systems thus far. As bad as I hate to say this, the HAWKS don’t count. We did not have a system. The Hawks had Diaw playing the point guard/guard position., all the while he should have been used as a center, according to the Suns. Can you call that a “system” thing or is it just a “we did not know what we were doing thing” Brand new folks at the time Boris was here. New team member, faculty, the whole nine.

By The Flash

May 2, 2006 03:51 PM | Link to this

Thinking Man: Regrettably, not to me. What I usually heard was something like, “Say what?”

No shame in loosing to a team hitting it hard under a proven system with players like the lefty and Kwame having career performances. Phil is proving his worth, and, if Kobe can control his narcissism, might be seeing a team that can maintain control on both ends and keep it close and then let the big dog hunt down the stretch. Would make the Lakers worth watching.

Nash and his mates might well have started a rejuvination of the game in the NBA. We’re seeing it in the other LA team, in Detroit, Tenn., I would have said Denver. Kobe did not earn it; played one on five most of the year(yawn); LeB, for all his terrific play, plays on a team that a good deal of the time is plain ugly to watch. the guy I’d have picked, as I said, was Dirk. But, not unhappy with Nash; Nash is a good model for where the game hopefully is going.

By A Thinking Fan

May 2, 2006 04:06 PM | Link to this

Steve Nash hit the WEIGHT ROOM!

BRUISE BROTHAS VS MJ; BB WON until MJ got into that weight room…

It’s “Bump & Thump” time in the back court! Nash got Bumped & Thumped – So what, “Man-up Cuz”. Bring your **A-Game”” or stay home. All chumps, sissies, and tricks go home to your Momma. No lay-up rule is now in effect. Make no calls, get no calls…

Take you down like Norm Van Lier, Beat you the way Calvin Murphy would, and get in you jock like Jerry Sloan. They were all guards and all played the “right way” -hard!!!

By The Flash

May 2, 2006 04:33 PM | Link to this

Thinking Man: you really gotsta read Hoop Dreams, by Phil. According to him, MJ and his boys didn’t start beating the BBs until they stopped trying to fight with them. Very MLK like. Take the blows and keep your cool, stay within who you are and committed to what you do well. At least that’s the way Phil explained it, at least as I remember it.

Sloan and Van Lier. They played basketball? Make anybody’s top 20 list of guards from their era even. Win anything? You take either of them, or Murphy, I’ll take Clyde. Some people play the game with style, and others try to make it into the WWF. You know which I prefer.

And, that manly man Sloan, who taught what’s his name in Utah to flop all the time whenever anyone touched him? Manly man my patootie. Couldn’t stand watching the guy; for all his talent, made a complete travisty of the game. Dirty as h* too, in a really cheap shot sort of way. Who else you got you want to show me?

By jlewis

May 2, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

Princess, Phoenix does not guard anyone, Diaw can not guard a center, he’s only called a center for the purpose of offense. They moved him to center because he is not developed enough offensively to play the point, nor is he quick enough. The system is a gimmick, if not, explain Tim Thomas.

By A Thinking Fan

May 2, 2006 04:38 PM | Link to this

Flash - there is a difference beteen “Sloan the player” and “Sloan the coach.”

By buddy

May 2, 2006 04:40 PM | Link to this

St. Bernard broke it down… doesn’t matter if Nash was the best player or “great white hope.” He was the most valuable player to his team this year. Last year, I don’t know. This year, no question. So the fact that he won it two years in a row is an historical coincidence and not evidence of some grand racist conspiracy within the NBA offices. And you guys know me… I can spot a conspiracy from a thousand miles away!

By Basketball Princess

May 2, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

What’s to explain about Tim Thomas. He has been playing the way he has been playing since the third year of his career. If you want to use him as an example, I don’t get it. Tim is a great off the bench player. When Tim has played with other teams like Milli, and the knicks, the only things that either inclined or declined during those years were his agressivness on blocking shots. He is taking the 3 more with a little more confidence but that comes over the years when you are a player like him. He has always brought at least 10-15 points a game. I mean what is he doing extra this year that he hasn’t done before other than taking the 3 point shot more and drilling them? I mean unless you are using the short stint in Chicago as an example. So either I dont’ understand your post or just being b-ball airhead today, cuz how is Tim Thomas a product of the system. Philly, Milli, and New York all have the same systems?

By Basketball Princess

May 2, 2006 05:05 PM | Link to this

Jlewis,

What’s to explain about Tim Thomas? He has been playing the way he has been playing since the third year of his career. If you want to use him as an example, I don’t get it. Tim is a great off the bench player. When Tim has played with other teams like Milli, and the knicks, the only things that either inclined or declined during those years were his agressivness on blocking shots. He is taking the 3 more with a little more confidence but that comes over the years when you are a player like him. He has always brought at least 10-15 points a game. I mean what is he doing extra this year that he hasn’t done before other than taking the 3 point shot more and drilling them? I mean unless you are using the short stint in Chicago as an example. So either I dont’ understand your post or just being b-ball airhead today, cuz how is Tim Thomas a product of the system. Philly, Milli, and New York all have the same systems?

By jlewis

May 2, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

Come on now, I thought this was a debate, not a name calling contest. If you think Tim Thomas is a great player, why did the Knicks, Milwaukee and Chicago do everything to get rid of him? His game is to spot up and wait for a Steve Nash pass or the ball being swung from the strong side, he plays no “D” and has been run out of town every place he has played. The Phoenix “system” allows for a soft player like Tim Thomas to succeed, because for a 6’10” player, his rebounding numbers are pathetic and all he has to concentrate on is shooting, while playing no defense.

By Astro Joe

May 2, 2006 05:47 PM | Link to this

My “read between the lines” theory on why the award went to Nash is because the NBA (i.e. Stern) likes the “Phoenix style”. They have a great mix of international talent, they play an exciting style of ball and they are overall a terrific model for everything that Stern wants to sell. So I think when there is a chance to give that team some love, the powers that be will make sure it happens. Detroit and San Antonio (the teams that play “the right way”) don’t need the help because they win titles. I’m not hating, heck, I love their style too. I just think that Dirk lead his team to a better record than Phoenix without an experienced coach, without long-time star Finley and lead his team’s commitment to transition to a defensive-minded squad. But I’m not sure that any of the 5-6 candidates named this year would have been a bad choice. It’s like choosing between an MB-AMG sedan or an MB-AMG coupe. Its still a helluva ride.

By The Flash

May 2, 2006 06:11 PM | Link to this

For those of you who, like me, would not know Henry V from a superman comic book, let me put the quote in context. Harry, the young English King, took this army to France to preempt the French from taking English land that belonged to the French in the first place or something like that. Anyway, it all comes down to this confrontation, in which Harry’s army is about to be joined in battle the next day by a vastly larger French army. The French offer surrender, which Harry refuses, and Harry’s army is ready to run and are desparately waiting word that expected reinforcements will arrive in time.

Harry gets up before the men and says that he don’t want no stinkin reinforcements, not a one; that he wants to go to battle with exactly the men that he’s got, at that precise time, in that precise place, against the vastly bigger French force that they face. That he knows his boys will win.

He tells the men that they can go if they want to, take food and water, and no one will think the worse of them. But, that for those who stay, anyway, rent the movie, this scrub recites it in the rain to his very cynical sergeant (think Thinking Man here with some actual toughness thrown in). Old Willie Shakespeare, he could really turn a phrase. Someday I’m actually gonna read something he wrote. Yeah right.

By Samuel

May 2, 2006 06:41 PM | Link to this

Astro,

I agree that you couldn’t go wrong with any of the guys we mentioned with the exception of Billips.

As for the racists angle. To me if race was an issue it would have gone to Dirk. Two different white players getting MVP two years in a row would be a greater perception of their being more good white players than just one in Nash.

By Astro Joe

May 2, 2006 08:19 PM | Link to this

At the end of this season, the awards look something like this:

Avery Johnson - Former Player/Champion and Well-Known Good Guy; Steve Nash - Canadian, Classic Point Guard; Boris Diaw - French, Phoenix Resurrected Project; Chris Paul - Charismatic, Articulate Youngster winning fans in a prospective new NBA Market (Ok City).

Tell me that Stern isn’t somewhere grinning from ear-to-ear with that line-up. Throw in former NBA Legend, Elgin Baylor as the Exec of the Year and it doesn’t get much better for a league commish the year after the Detroit/Indy fight. All of these guys are the perfect images for Stern’s assault on Corporate America. Fascinating, the year after “The Fight”, Stern went with an All-World line-up of Good Guys to walk away with the top individual honors. (As you guys/gal can tell, I always try to “follow the money” when trying to figure out decisions).

By Trophead

May 2, 2006 10:37 PM | Link to this

Last I checked, Nash turned the ultimate scrub Diaw and the malcontent loser Tim Thomas into valuable contributors on a playoff team. There’s a reason why they submit the MVP votes before the playoffs start. It’s the regular season MVP, not the playoffs MVP. Nash is by far the most valuable player in the league this year. The fact that Tim Thomas is actually having some success in Phoenix tells me anyone with 3 point range could play for Phoenix and shoot 40% from beyond the arc.

Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Carmelo, and Dirk also had large enough impacts on their team’s success to be considered, and if any of them had won I wouldn’t mind. But Billups? To me he’s quickly become the most overrated player in the league. That offense is successful because of Rip Hamilton running off screens, not because of Billups. Billups doesn’t create shots for his team, Rip running off screens is what creates open shots. I’m not saying he’s not a great player, but he’s not even the most valuable on his own team. Ben Wallace is the key to their defense, and Rip is the key to their offense.

By A Thinking Fan

May 3, 2006 07:00 AM | Link to this

The small Phoenix Suns turned physical, of all things, and rolled past the Los Angeles Lakers 114-97 Tuesday night to stay alive in their first-round playoff series.

Everytime a team is down they have to get TOUGH to win - Case & Point (See my former takes in this blog). Play like men or go home like boys…

By A Thinking Fan

May 3, 2006 07:04 AM | Link to this

“It’s been a pretty physical series, and at that point in time I had caught another elbow in the jaw and I lost my head and overreacted to it,” Bell said. “It could have cost my team and for that I’m sorry.”

As for that rough style, Bryant said bring it on.

“That’s how I grew up playing basketball in Philadelphia,” he said. “I love playing that style. It excites me more than anything.”

By A Thinking Fan

May 3, 2006 07:07 AM | Link to this

REPEAT

It’s “Bump & Thump” time in the back court! Nash got Bumped & Thumped – So what, “Man-up Cuz”. Bring your “”A-Game”” or stay home. All chumps, sissies, and tricks go home to your Momma. No lay-up rule is now in effect. Make no calls, get no calls…

Take you down like Norm Van Lier, Beat you the way Calvin Murphy would, and get in you jock like Jerry Sloan. They were all guards and all played the “right way” -hard!!!

By doc

May 3, 2006 07:57 AM | Link to this

atf, if you are saying you cant be timid or be intimidated in the playoffs and not go home you are exactly right. this is the time of the season that desire and will have to surface or you dont play the next series. it is about mental toughness saying who wants it more than the other guy. it isnt about playing to hurt but playing to win as though there isnt another day. this is why i love march madness so much as the best team skill wise often isnt the team standing at the end and to some degree it is what is enjoyed by a really competitive series in the nba.

it is the reaching down to find out what is left when you dont think there should be anything left. it is what the maimi team had to do when its backs were against the wall and a lesser team with desire was kicking their derierres. when dwayne wade had to ignore the pain, come out of the dressing room and carry his team just relying on the bodies natural response to ignore the pain and play as if there were no tomorrow. it also isnt about money when you are playing for the ring, it goes beyond what they usually are playing for and that is what i love about it.

By doc

May 3, 2006 08:20 AM | Link to this

btw, the first person that says we need to go after bozo wells hopefully will get the full frontal from andro rage.

By doc

May 3, 2006 08:53 AM | Link to this

just saw headline by headline writer that probably doesnt have a clue about daly “admitting” an addiction to gambling. so far i have only suspected form others takes on it, he was admitting to gambling losses that were phenominal but like bragging rights. i am so important that i can lose 50 million dollars. reverse self esteem i guess.

By Astro Joe

May 3, 2006 09:15 AM | Link to this

www.foxsports.com has a mock NBA draft and you’ll never guess who they have the Hawks selecting. Mario Williams, DE from NC State. The write-up describes Marcus Williams from UCONN, but the name is Mario Williams. Pretty funny. I’m sure someone is saying, “there goes BK again drafting another 6’7” player”.

By Clyde

May 3, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Forget Chris Paul and Derron Williams. Shaun Livingston is the Truth. He is the perfect example of how a young player should be developed in the NBA. He has a veteran in Sam Cassell yelling at him from the bench trying to help him. I hope Billy is watching cause that’s what Delk could have provided. It is always better for young guys to have a veteran in front of them than just sending them out to learn on there own. FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By The Flash

May 3, 2006 01:07 PM | Link to this

WHO was it that said that Walker was a stiff who would make no contribution to the Heat in the playoffs? More important, who alone on this blog disagreed with that assessment? Oops, doc, it happened again. We’re starting to see a pattern here. You could admit it, it’s okay, I got game. Really, it’s okay.

By A Thinking Fan

May 3, 2006 01:44 PM | Link to this

DOC you’re “dead on point” about the playoffs. It is no different in hostile takeovers, M&A, pepsi vs coke, market share position, etc.

By HB Ando

May 3, 2006 02:50 PM | Link to this

The idea that Diaw is a “system” player just becomes more and more ridiculous with every outing. 25-10-9 last night. Are any of you WATCHING him? Are any of you LISTENING to what the analysts and his coaches are saying? Thomas is doing exactly the same thing he’s done on every team he’s played for. Scoring and little else. So how is his production a byproduct of the system? Chicago didn’t want him because he’s a clubhouse cancer. He’s playing his tail off, because he’s up for another contract and wants to keep getting paid. His career rebounding average is 4 per game. He’s pulling a Jerome James for the playoffs because he knows it will net him a new contract. The fact that he’s averaging almost 8 boards CONFIRMS that he’s a heartless underperformer. He’s capable of giving you that and more. He’s 6’10 and athletic as all get out. He’s what’s wrong with the NBA.

Now if Diaw’s ability is purely a product of that system, and his lack of performance here is thus a product of our system, then it seems pretty obvious we need a new system…….

But unless I misheard the announcers last night, they’re talking about Diaw developing into an all-star. This isn’t about the Johnson trade anymore. Stop trying to make it all feel better by telling yourselves that Diaw isn’t this good. He is, and he’s getting better. Accept the fact that Billy screwed up. I’d move on if some of you folks would quit saying Diaw can’t play. But every time it’s said, I can’t let go of how inaccurate it is. WATCH him play. I am and he’s really good. If you can’t accept it, then you’re experiencing what’s known as cognitive dissonance, or, you are clueless about the game of basketball. Systems DO NOT create triple doubles. Great players do.

By tb

May 3, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

Hawks next moves

Draft:

Trade Al for Mo Williams/2007 Top 10 protected first

Sign:

Loren Woods, 3@10-12 should sign him.

Pick up option on Donta Smith

Ivey 1@league min. or keep Grundy

2006-07 roster

PG: Mo Williams/Lue/Ivey

SG: JJ/Salim

SF: Marvin/Chil/D.Smith

PF: Smoove/Bargnani/Batista

C: Zaza/Woods/Sene

Plus we get a top 10 protected 2007 first from MIL

By The Flash

May 3, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

Woe, Ando man, you’re showing some fancy moves I ain’t seen before. “Cognitive dissonance,” I haven’t heard that since a social psych prelim I don’t want to tell you how long ago. I had to guess then too, but I got a better idea in this context.

Seriously, you’re describing exactly how I get drawn into the same topic, then Doc or Thinking Man or Astro Man comes down heavy for blah blah blah. Yeah, next time, I’m telling them “cognitive dissonance, baby.” That’ll shut em up. As smart as those guys are, I’m sure that they won’t have any better clue then me as to what it means.

BTW, thanks for the props re the footwork thing. Since I began playing, I’d watch other people and if they had a move, a shot, that was particularly effective in beating defenders and also repeatable, I’d always assume that the reason that it was repeatableness had to do with the physics of it, as did the effectiveness, with such things as timing, momentum, rhythm, and placement of body parts thrown in. With a picture of how they looked solidly in mind, I’d experiment until I’d come on something that was repeatable (as in the ball would get delivered to the basket in the same type way, usually effortlessly, and go in) and it would invariably turn out to be effective. As my man Hebron would say, “the laws of physics are nonnegotiable.”

Anyway, like I told my friend Jane, I don’t remember much about my old moves (but I did have a whole lot of them) and they involved getting down intricate footwork, the amount of tension and lean in the body, how the ball was transferred from the dribble to the shooting position, the catch off the dribble, etc. Somehow the whole thing was terrifically interesting to me. Same with shooting. I’d copy different players’ styles and experiment until they worked. So, I’d have a lot of different ways to load the gun and deliver the ball from different positions, not just one. Most guys are amazingly predictable in how they catch and bring the ball up to shoot. You time them and make them do it different and their percentages go way down. I always had a lot of different ways to go, and was better at reading the defenders then they were reading me.

Story, I was once on a flight with Sam Jones; he was on the celebrity golf circuit (not a bad way to earn a living) and I was then a golf nut (have since come to my senses). Anyway, we talked golf for the hour or so that the flight took. Then, as we were leaving, I turned and said, “Sam, you and I know that there is really only one great game, and that it ain’t played with no set of sticks.” He smiled and nodded.

By The Flash

May 3, 2006 03:58 PM | Link to this

More about diversity: Sorry to bore you folks with my stories, but here’s a short one.

Aside from the Pearl, who had more ways and body angles, and hand and arm positions for delivering the ball then any 10 great players, the guy who I got to play with some who had the most diverse game in that regard I ever saw was a guy who lead the nation’s freshman in scoring in something like ‘69 (Jay something, a 6’1” guard who played for Creighton, scored about 39 a game, but I think quite after his freshman season to ride his motorcycle). If you have a chance, ask Herb about him; he coached (or tried, Jay wasn’t terrific at listening I suspect)him at camp one summer. Not the type of player you’d forget.

By clyde

May 3, 2006 04:13 PM | Link to this

tb:

I love your roster. With it it should give us about 15-20 wins next year. That way we can fire Woody and stay in the hunt to get Oden or Noah in the lottery. FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By doc

May 3, 2006 04:14 PM | Link to this

flash, dude, is it always about keeping score? be in the moment man, never is perfection the goal anymore. been there, done that, as a surgeon to have no room for error no matter what the situation. this is fun. i just dont think i used those words about walker and i have revelled in the diaw story but my memory is as good as yours so we are on even ground there and i really know you cant remember either. the diaw story kind of sounds like the rip story that hits home with you and your buddies. forgive and live.

By Astro Joe

May 3, 2006 04:23 PM | Link to this

Well here’s my blah, blah, blah. Diaw was able to take advantage of the chance to play in the front court. He had that chance for a few games with the Hawks back in his rookie year. All of our big men were hurt late in the season and we only had Diaw and Chris Crawford who were over 6’6”. Diaw got some minutes at PF and played surprisingly well. The next year, the coaching staff moved him back to the backcourt and that was about the end of his Hawks story. Atlanta was determined to play him at SG/PG, probably because of his size and ballhandling skills. A similar act of desparation led Phoenix to play him at PF and C most of this season. Sometimes in life, opportunity knocks. There is no GM without regrets. But I personally doubt that Diaw would have ever developed into this type of player with Atlanta because the chances of him ever getting sustained playing time in the front court would have been very, very rare. Plus, sometimes guys are late bloomers. I’m not sure O’Neil was ready to be a player in Portland. Favre was definitely not ready to be a player for the Falcons. Personally, I compare him to Toni Kukoc. He will ultimately come in off the bench and provide whatever his team needs. He’ll be an exceptional role player. But I seriously doubt that he will ever take an All-Star slot away from any of the more prominent forwards in either conference.

By doc

May 3, 2006 04:51 PM | Link to this

the debate about diaw should be dead by now. he wasnt going to fit here based on what was here. we have all agreed on that one so many times it is foolish to rehash. there was a lot of traffic where he was to play if he was to be effective, that being the already overloaded 3 or 4 slot. he would have had to stay where he was as a point or big shooting guard and we would not have had the guy who is already an all star in my opinion not one that might be.

face it diaw was not good enough to be an all star where he was needed with the hawk, pure and simple, we got really good value for him. i would hate to have had diaw playing where jj did because diaw had already showed he couldnt play there cant play defense and isnt quick enough to go against the best guards. they made mince meat of him to the point that he lost his confidence for that position. he was out of his element or league as a guard.

now i guess someone would have preferred that bk have sent smoove instead or marvin. yeah right as i think those two guys may have some upside of their own yet to come. lets see diaw what 24 and they are what 19 or 20. shame it couldnt have been al but that would have brought screams as well and you would have still had the same road block that we all have been cognizant of at the three/four position with the emphasis on the three.

both teams and players have benefitted so why cant it be left at that rather than trying to make it into this bk thing again? i mean isnt that the way some trades are supposed to happen. that is why i am always guffawing at some of the trades suggested here. you have to figure out good fits for the other team as a foundation or it just isnt going to happen.

By The Flash

May 3, 2006 06:34 PM | Link to this

Doc, my recollection is that it was not you who said it. Don’t remember who it was. What my reference to you was about was your comment the last time I bragged on myself, something like even an ameba can land on the right spot once in a milenium. I was just pointing out that lightning had struck twice in a matter of weeks. You are wrong enough all on your own for me to falsely accuse you. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

By The Flash

May 3, 2006 07:49 PM | Link to this

Doc, BTW, by acknowledging that Diaw is as valuable or nearly as valuable to Phoenix as JJ was, you wave the red cape in front of the bull again, you do know that. But, me, I’m gonna let it pass, I got no bull in me right now. Can’t speak for Ando though, you know him and those picks.

By jason

May 4, 2006 01:29 AM | Link to this

1st, there is no way steve nash is the MVP! 2nd, HB every aspect of life in the U.S.A. is based on race period (new orleans!). you have a man avg damn near 32pts, 7rbs, 7asts, only 1 0f 5 playes to post those #’s in history and lead his team to the playoffs for the 1st time in 8 yrs w/ the world on his shoulders. TAKE LEBRON OFF THE CAVS, WOULD THEY WIN A SINGLE GAME ? you also have an individual who posted 36pts, 5rbs, 5 asts, is a perenial game closer also w/ the world expecting him to fail.KOBE WENT ON A SCORING RUN THIS YEAR THAT PROBABLY WONT BE DONE AGAIN FOR A VERY LONG TIME (81 pts). YOUR MVP turned the ball over twice w/ the game on the line and can’t beat the 7th seed in the conference. I’m not bashing steve nash, because actually i like to watch him play but, facts are facts he has never been more than a “good show” in the regular season. his playoff resume consists of him getting torched by a better point guard which ultimately ends his season annually. bibby (2 yrs.), tony parker (2yrs.) smush parker ripped him for game on sunday and this is the MVP? come on man!!!RACE IS ALWAYS AN ISSUE WHETHER YOU WANT TO ADMIT IT OR NOT!!!

By HB Ando

May 4, 2006 02:37 AM | Link to this

See, Jason, that’s what I wondered about. Seems like the MVP of the NBA is kind of like American Idol. What’s the flavor of the month?

Now doc, I’m not engaging in the relative values of each teams’ aquisitions, as we’ve beaten that to death. I’m merely giving Diaw appropriate credit for emerging as the versatile, impact player that he became, after being dumped as an afterthought to Phoenix. He’s a different bird. We’re not trying to compare him to JJ and what each would have done if they’d not traded uniforms. But JJ didn’t average 6 boards or 6 dimes in the “system” that so many have attibuted to Diaw’s emergence. Nor did Diaw assume the long-distance threat that JJ brought to Phoenix’s rotation.

My point is, for the millionth time, that we failed, in every sense of the concept, to identify and optimize Diaw’s skills here. And in doing so, we re-enforced our bottom dwelling position in the NBA hierarchy, by providing what was supposed to be a throw in to a top Western Conference team, who was likely to honor Johnson’s public demand that they not match the Hawks’ offer.

Let me ask all of you this one question: If we had traded, say, Childress, instead of Diaw, is there a single one of you who would stake their reputation on the supposition that Chill would have averaged over 6 dimes and 6 boards per game? Would Chill have validated the Phoenix “system” to similar results? Is there a man or woman among you that will stake your reputation on the opinion that Chill would have won the “Most Improved Player” award if he had been the alternate choice to Diaw? And, as I asked before Christmas, was there not anyone in the organization who did not see glimpses of Diaw’s potential during scrimmages last season?

Come on……..Please…….This did not occur in a vacuum…..

By doc

May 4, 2006 08:03 AM | Link to this

yes ando i understand your point and have stated it myself. my point and perspective was it wasnt a matter of seeing the “glimpses” it was that he had lost confidence and he couldnt do what was needed here. as far as the merits of chills that is all pure conjecture. for the hawks chills fit their needs better for a guy who can do some dirty work, again what diaw doesnt seem so inclined to do nor be known for d. if you go back and read i would have preferred to have gotten rid of al if i could play the retrospectoscope game as it is always perfect. if we had we would be spending less money last year and wouldnt be dealing with the off season stuff. as far as that goes we all hope for something of value in return there so it still may work to our advantage.

even in the past you have alluded to the notion the suns do have an up tempo “system” and one i like that works better in numbers for players and diaw has certainly moved into his time and space well, taking advantage of the opportunity given him. in saying that i am not taking anything away from him. the coaches there should be commended, maybe they knew what they had all along. i doubt it because when they got diaw it was while amare and tucker were still a significant part of their plans. diaw was probably a minor consideration for them at that point and if amare hadnt gone down first along with their other big maybe we wouldnt have heard about diaw at all. he might be hanging onto his job watching instead of reaping his rewards. funny how life sometimes works. as you said last week it may have been a good lesson for our coaches here that he did well. that is not a knock on the coaches but hopefully a statement that they too are capable of learning from their mistakes. maybe bk is even capable of such a behavior.

noted your late post, must admit to have watched all of the labron/arenas showdown last night. were you watching? think it was a good game but there were some people on the court watching at times; maybe exciting is a better description. certainly played out all the drama big time as i had the wiz losing then the cavs losing and back and forth, couldnt believe that the lane opened up for lebron there at the end but he made a beautiful exclamation to the game.

By Basketball Princess

May 4, 2006 08:43 AM | Link to this

HB, I’m glad some one else can validate that Tim Thomas has always played the way he’s played, cuz when it comes from me, it seems I don’t know what I’m talking about until the king comes and gives his blessings.

And about Diaw, Thats’s what I said. He is not a system player. To even claim that he is, he would have had to gone to another team, under-performend, and then to a team with a good “system”, and stats went thru the roof. Boris has always said that he did not like Atl’s system. That something was wrong with it. Always commented on the likes of San Antonio’s style of play. Is San Antonio’s system anything like PhX’s?

By Basketball Princess

May 4, 2006 09:02 AM | Link to this

I wonder if Kobe and Shaq’s daughters will be friends when the get older. Or rivals in some sport. Maybe the go head to head during Cheer Leader Competition on ESPN.

That’s so amazing that their children be born around the same time. Both on may 1st, in the same early hours! Gianna, and Mearah. Both there names end in the same sound too. HA-HA thats so cool! Ironic

By doc

May 4, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

diaw has filled a role admirably in the suns system. im not implying that he is a systems player. with his capabilities other coaches are probably drooling to fine someone similar to fill a role intheir system. wht could diaw do in phil’s triangle if kobe were to give him the ball? could be frightening. what would diaw have done with the knicks (dysfunctional)system? probably very little.

as far as systems go and players getting numbers, which has been an argument against believing too much in the suns in the post season, i wonder; how many players have matched their numbers moving away from the suns? not too many, excluding jason kidd, who pressed to leave there because he said he didnt think the suns could have too many chances at a championship. not too many disagreed with him at that point in time. though it doesnt prove a system, the fact that few have been big time after leaving other than to drive a more expensive car, may be an argument that they do play a system and if you fit stay.

congrats to diaw and if my guys are to survive he better come up with a sincere triple double while shutting down kobe. a tall order but if done will take him into rarefied air.

By A Thinking Fan

May 4, 2006 10:11 AM | Link to this

LbJ is the MVP of the NBA Payoffs - Let Steve “System” Nash have the regular season award system so Stern can sell the league internationally…

By The Flash

May 4, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

Thinking Man: In my book, anyone who occupies the ball as long on most touches doesn’t win the MVP. At least the Zards mix it up with that little weave thing they do, and then Arenas catches and goes. LeB’s team and LeB need to mature, show me a little more basketball basketball before I’d be giving out any MVPs. Personally, if you had to chose after last night, I’d take Arenas. But, what I said about LeB goes for Arenas as well. Throw in Kobe. Just my take.

By jlewis

May 4, 2006 11:09 AM | Link to this

Ando, Diaw is playing great, but this is my thought in regard to why he is a “system” player, what is his position? Like Barkley and many others have stated, he does not have a position, he has a 10 foot jumper and he always drives right or Nash puts him in a position on the switch to post up a guard. The reason JJ did not average 6 and 6 is because Stoudemire was there and Nash had the ball and ran pick and roll with Stoudemire. To further evidence this, look at Diaw’s numbers when Stoudemire returned for a few games, he was just like the player he was in ATL, since he had no position, he has to play with the ball in his hands, when it’s not, he’s ineffective. I like Phoenix’s system, it’s entertaining, but as stated above, any player with a 3 point shot can play in it, look what happened to Q-Rich when he left. The 6 and 6 can easily be explained, he does go to the boards, and when teams play Phoenix they are more concerned with getting back than crashing the offensive boards and in an uptempto system with the ball in your hands and shooters, you can average 6 assists. Heck, JJ had no shooters and averaged 6.7 assists. We will see Diaw’s truth worth, he is up for free agency soon, let’s see who offers a player with no position and no range a big contract. He should stay in Phoenix, because he can’t guard the guards, small or power forwards, and you know he can’t play center. And Ando, Phoenix was going to match that contract, B. Colangelo has stated that, even while he has been in Toronto. ATL is on the right path, Diaw would not have made it better, he would have only been effective in Phoenix or Golden State. Furthermore, he fits the profile of a long list of European players, other than dirty Nocioni, as soft players.

By The Flash

May 4, 2006 12:48 PM | Link to this

jlewis:

You sound like BK; what do you expect Colangelo to say, “I was bluffing.” Please. With all your efforts to pick apart Diaw’s game, are they better this season with Diaw rather than JJ or not. Please don’t answer, it’ll just be blah, blah, blah.

So why has no so-called expert stood up and said what’s the big deal about Diaw, why the award, if he has such shortcomings?

If Colangelo had resigned JJ, and turned down a straightup with Diaw, say goodbye to that juicy contract with Toronto, boys and girls. The only guy in the history of the world who got snuckered worse than BK in this thing was Zeke. That is the list.

The issue is and always has been was Phoenix in a position to match the Hawks’ offer on a guy, as good as he is, was entirely fungible in their system and could not help them where they need it most, that is, inside. If you believe Colangelo, you just ain’t thinking.

Talking about market forces is a straw man that means nothing and only undermines your argument. What was the next highest offer (not counting Phoenix’s I’m betting deferred, deferred package) for JJ. Something like 25m? Help me here, I’m not great at stats, but I think that number is about right. The Hawks bought the pot, plain and simple and then refused to play the hand out. Got cold feet. Or worse. Now that Doc has admitted that BK wasn’t really calling the shots, going with the 70 percent over the 30 percent, one has to ask not how BK saw this thing, but rather how Gearon et al did. Seems to me that that is a very dark, dark place to go.

By A Thinking Fan

May 4, 2006 01:55 PM | Link to this

Flash Diaw is still a soft player, but great for Phx! He punked out of the ATL. You don’t punk out on your teammates - NEVER! Whereever you play. I’d kicked him in is butt…

By A Thinking Fan

May 4, 2006 02:01 PM | Link to this

That’s what I like about this current crew of ATL players. They didn’t punk out like a French pastry…

By The Flash

May 4, 2006 03:18 PM | Link to this

I really can’t speak to whether Diaw quit on his boyz here. But, as to that soft business, all I can say is that sometimes, just sometimes, some people confuse finese players with being soft. There is a difference.

Not saying you are wrong Thinking Man, actually, now that I think about it, I am, but can understand how a novice like you might confuse the two. Just funnin on you, thick skin, keepin you tough. Don’t want no soft growin round here.

With you completely on your praise of the boyz this season; considering the source, they should be proud.

Thinking Man, right on for your praise for the current crew; quality people and that counts much.

By buddy

May 4, 2006 06:29 PM | Link to this

Diaw is not a great player. He dogged it in Atlanta because he didn’t want to play here. Everybody knew he could pass so Diaw being a triple double threat is really no shock. With Amare out, he gets alot of touches. And as for the Hawks needing a new system, after Phoenix gets bounced in the first round of the playoffs this year, I don’t expect anybody on this blog to be calling for the Hawks to adopt Phoenix’s system.

By A Thinking Fan

May 4, 2006 07:06 PM | Link to this

Didn’t Diaw get PAID when he played for the Hawks or was he doing volunteer work?

By The Flash

May 4, 2006 08:06 PM | Link to this

Thing Man, now that was good. Vicious, but good.

Buddy, you serious about everybody wanting to run away from the Phoenix system. I’m not talking about their exact system, D’A didn’t even give it a name yet like the triangle or the princeton. I mean, using someone, a point or a post man to get a lot of touches and keep the ball moving for people to make catches in places that they are dangerous with time and space. People are going to run away from that?

Maybe that doesn’t interest you but I think that the average Joe finds such play, especially with the up and down game that Phoenix uses, incredibly entertaining and effective.

I take it that you are a Thinking Man macho type who longs for the Blues Brothers. But, ask yourself this. If there weren’t the Chicagos with MJ, and the LA’s with the Magic show, would anyone have tuned in? Would anyone have watched that junk. Zeke, man, he’s doing terrific. The baddest of the bad, he’s coaching girls for g-d’s sake (sorry BP, just a rhetorical point). G-d save the NBA from a return of the BB, is all I can say.

But, hey, if Phoenix runs out of gas, the king is dead. Long live the king. Maybe it’ll be the Clips, who share and run the ball in a very entertaining way; ditto Detroit; ditto San Antonio. Really, don’t you want to say ditto the Hawks? No????

By clyde

May 4, 2006 08:31 PM | Link to this

I got this to say about Diaw. If a player knows the coach doesn’t believe in him, he won’t play hard for the coach. Diaw knew Woodson thought he was soft so he didn’t go all out for him. The coaches in Phoenix believe in him and that has helped his confidence this year. FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By RPH

May 4, 2006 09:45 PM | Link to this

Clyde, that makes sense but then that tells us all we need to know about quite a few nba players. Boris Diaw made over a million dollars this year and he needs the coach to kiss his a* in order for him to play hard. Oh, and Billy Knight should be running basketball promotions not the gm of an nba team, he still honestly believes we don’t need any help at point guard. I still can’t believe he said that!

By A Thinking Fan

May 4, 2006 09:51 PM | Link to this

Diaw got paid USA dollars from the NBA. Wake-up folks, BK & MW is one issue, but Boris “take-the-money and run” (Don’t play hard for the Hawks)Diaw is another issue. I bet he ran hard to the bank on payday - hmmm! You think?

By doc

May 4, 2006 09:53 PM | Link to this

clyde i agree it wasnt quit as much as it was confidence i what he could and couldnt do where the hawks wanted him, said so earlier. i do think someone will figure a way to negate him if he becomes too impressive or critical to the suns success. it may be more that teams say let diaw do it just not nash. need for him to be big though tonight.

good stuff flash, loved the bruise bros. with that roid freak rodman. oh yeah, no steroids in basketball. looked straight out of wwf which had quite a following then.

By A Thinking Fan

May 4, 2006 09:57 PM | Link to this

JJ is a good ole country, hard-nose/hard playing “All-American kid.” He gives his all every game - Iron man! That is what being American is all about – right? Or do we have to kiss-up to a French pastry who didn’t play hard for Georgia fans money?

By A Thinking Fan

May 4, 2006 10:37 PM | Link to this

I’ve raised a lot of ‘cane today on this blog, but I want to sign off by giving props to Marvin Williams – CONGRATUATIONS; and give my condolences to Tiger with the passing of his dad…

Peace to all, including our international NBA players and fellow world citizens…

Good night John boy and you to Flash. ;-)

By doc

May 5, 2006 02:05 AM | Link to this

let’s see, nash cant deliver, right? silence. what a wonderful sound among his detractors. MVP, period.

so sekou, the suns are done, that l.a. atmosphere went to your head. they got off your grill baby and put a hurt on kobe baby. they stood up and took the stake out of their heart.

suns dont play d. not. five offensive fouls in one half dont come because a team isnt playing the d.

way to go thomas. treated the way delk was here in chicago as they went with the young boys and didnt quit.

diaw not the man and they still won. cool.

new order rising, not yet. everything has fallen just the way it should have, especially, if the lakers cant get over that group of overachievers.

By doc

May 5, 2006 02:10 AM | Link to this

atf, you went to bed too early last night. bed is for wimps during these times, dude. nash looked tougher than the small man with a thud in his hand by the name of hearns. he dont need weights when he can throw thunder at the big boys with what he’s got. you better wake up and check the boy out. you been smoking somebodys pipe man.

check out your tevo and weep. :-)

By Samuel

May 5, 2006 06:08 AM | Link to this

Doc,

I guess you can tell by the timing of my post also that I can’t hang with the “Big Boys” either. I got about 100 or so “knuckleheads” to deal with every morning. Eventhough i’m a Laker man. I’m glad to see Nash step up and prove me right.

The Suns showed us something huh. Game 7 is Saturday. Gotta get them Bream and “Brang it on”. Nash is MVP. Also, do you fire Scott Skyles and their GM for not being able to take advantage of a Tim Thomas? Hell, they paid the man millions to stay at home for God’s sake.

What a first round. All you NBA “haters” can say what you want but it don’t get any better for a “Real” basketball junkie.

By tb

May 5, 2006 06:55 AM | Link to this

Given enough time, some people will end up criticizing everyone. That’s pretty silly when you know that it’s all a question of perspective.

By buddy

May 5, 2006 07:26 AM | Link to this

Barkley last night after the game: “If you don’t think Steve Nash should be MVP, you need to watch more basketball games.”

Oh, and Diaw went the hell off in OT. Dude was posting up and scoring on LA’s no-D and he had that sick oop to Marion. Still not ready to say he’s a “great” player, but if Phoenix makes it out of this round they wouldn’t have without him.

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 07:37 AM | Link to this

I hear u DOC, but I’ve been watching the NBA for so long; and U & I know there is too much money on the table for there not to be a “GAME 7.”

By doc

May 5, 2006 08:54 AM | Link to this

yeah buddy, diaw seemed to pick it up there when it counted, but i thought he had struggled earlier to find himself. not sure but in retrospect it seemed like a more fun game to watch than the cav/wiz game the night before. any late owls agree? it was more clear out and watch stuff.

phoenix had essentially five guys with 20 or more and 6 in double figures; whereas, even though the lakers had kobe with 50 they still had five guys in double figures. only smush fell flat for them, think they dont need another big time guard? also think walton will be replaced in the off season as there still isnt enough quality and depth in their lineup. they really have some guys that couldnt do it anywhere else as starters on contenders either.

no matter what it could be fun to watch saturday night as the suns have done the battan walk and almost survived. dont think kobe is going to feel the heat. cant wait to watch and see how the kobe, raja thing matches up. just dont think kobe is going to feel the love in phoenix. i really hope that i dont have to stay up past two to hear the wrap up comments and the tnt boys at the end.

though things have stayed true to form thus far it has been more competitve than i expected. i really thought that the heat was done there down by 4 at 55 to 51 and dwayne not getting up. they really got off the floor. the story there will be to see if they can keep their focus and play up to their capabilities instead of down to the competition which they have done with regularity this year. that attitude may do them in at the end. still thinkin pistons and spurs in the end …. less confidently.

By Basketball Princess

May 5, 2006 10:20 AM | Link to this

Hey guys, I’m heading out today to interview an ex Hawk. Well he aint a ex Hawk yet, but he will be after the free agency signing period is over. I’ll be in this dudes element Saturday and Sunday. Look forward to going by Stephan Starbury’s car shop to see what they got cooking up. If anybody got any last words for our Hawk buddy let me know.

By Clyde

May 5, 2006 10:52 AM | Link to this

What did Basketbll Princess just say? But anyway I think everyone would agree on this about Boris Diaw after watching the game last night. Diaw is not a throw in player to finalize a deal. He is worth much more than that.

By Basketball Princess

May 5, 2006 11:03 AM | Link to this

Clyde what about my post did you not understand?

By honest abe

May 5, 2006 11:17 AM | Link to this

buddy- diaw dogged it in atl? hmmm from my recollection he had a decent rookie year, showed signs of potential…. here was this 6’7 pg who could pass, had some athleticsm, played defense, could board, but didn’t want to shoot…..in come coach woodson, whose style of coaching is scream till you get blue…. while his offensive game play is quite limited…. every day woodson was criticizing diaw in public about his unwillingness to shoot the ball…. everytime i watched diaw out there he hustled, he played hard, but looked really confused as what was expected from him…. the hawks wanted him to be some kind of scorer and that’s just not his game…. always looking to make the extra pass, but nobody on the team who was expecting the pass….this is the reason for his failure in the atl…NOT BECAUSE HE DOGGED IT! how many games do you watch anyway…that’s a lame observation and to profess that you know his intentions is pathetic…

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 11:27 AM | Link to this

The Phx/LAL game was decided in the 1st. half by fouls - intentionaly or unintentionaly - the refs influence the outcome of games. Phx did what a good team should do - exploit how the fouls are being called this game…

Shaq had very few fouls and produce a DD.

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 11:38 AM | Link to this

“Game 7” is an advertising exec’s dream. The favorite was down, but has pulled the series even. The underdog with two playoff savvy veterans in Phil & Kobe (especially with the subplot of their coming back together) trying to pull off a playoff miracle victory.

I looked at my advertising budget and could only dream about buying ad space in this game’s time slot…

By Basketball Princess

May 5, 2006 11:54 AM | Link to this

I’m out to go pick Harrington’s brains yall! Wish me luck!!!! I’ll try to check in over the weekend while I’m out in Jersey City! If not then I’ll talk to yall monday

By HB Ando

May 5, 2006 12:10 PM | Link to this

BP, we need to know if Al is going to play ball with us in a sign-and-trade! Extra year and more cash! Or is he going to walk and leave us holding (not that I’d blame him; I’d blame Billy)? If you can get some work on that you need to change your name to Basketball Queen, baby!

By HB Ando

May 5, 2006 12:11 PM | Link to this

word

By doc

May 5, 2006 12:23 PM | Link to this

bp, perfect sense and commend your apumb and class to not be pulled into that one. please dont hold out on the juicy stuff.

atf you are back peddling my man. the refs finally evened it up after the way they didnt call the last game. nash put a hurt on you dude, now it is all about the buck. well i bought it.

had a vision of nash being a manifestation of the cous and the pistol. he is the showtime of maravich with the clarity of cousy. he really put on a show last night in yin penetrating the yang force. boy did he ever make kwayme look helpless when he got caught in a switch and the guard didnt come back to help. nash just pulled up and sank the 10 footers uncontested with so little effort. i remember how that felt, i much preferred the macho big guard to bring it. i got my licks, watched the game from the side at the end as his shots stopped going down because of fatigue. it wasnt until i got to coaching kids that i realized why the coach kept complimenting me for fouling out and not telling me why. sam good stuff to take to your kids. water yin breaks down the earthen dam each time, ultimately.

not sure what i saw in overtime as it was hard to see through the lids being pryed to stay open. i was even throwing down the kids cocoa puffs as i had just about sampled everything else in the fridge and cubbard.

good weekend folks!

By HB Ando

May 5, 2006 12:24 PM | Link to this

doc, I’m not jumping ship. I thought the Lakers would upset Phoenix, and I’m sticking with my predicition, right or wrong (the way it should be).

On Thomas, I’m going to revisit some points I’ve made about most NBA players being interchangeable parts. Thomas has a rep for a less than full-effort approach in the locker room. On the tail end of an expiring contract, and with a young, impressionable team, with Nocioni and Deng available to play the 3, I completely see why they sent him packing. Can he play? A little. In fact, he’s capable of being really good. But he only plays when he’s up for a new contract. So whatever he could have given Chicago on the court they got at least as good from Noc and Deng. But the potential downside to him in the locker room, and the fact that they had complementary parts to replace his potential production, made sending him home a solid move from a chemistry standpoint.

There are a handful of guys that seem like they’d help the Hawks, on paper. But with a team this young, you have to keep the guys who only play for the money out of the locker room. They’ve done a good job of that (yes, that’s me giving some credit to a front office strategy; hopefully folks were sitting down when they read that).

No Tim Thomas (that’s a veteran club, in the playoffs, where everybody puts in full effort). No Jerome James (people can’t quit reminding Isiah that signing James was THE worst off-season move in the league last year). While we’re building this thing, bring in guys who work hard and treat the game with respect. Let the leadership in that locker room develop it’s core. So if we bring in someone down the road who’s not working hard enough, the core of this young group will be old enough, and experienced enough, to let them know that they’ll have to step it up to play here.

This summer will tell us much about whether they’re really building something, or just biding their time, and stringing us along. We’ll see the level of commitment from ownership, when free agency, the draft and the resolution of the Harrington situation play themselves out. If they’re really building, getting good character guys is as important as getting talent. There are now plenty of clear examples in this league, of guys who have tremendous talent, but who’s teams cannot win with them on the floor. They make the cash, they play with flash, but they’re not winners. Look at Nash and Duncan and Billups. Class acts on class organizations. That’s what you want to be when you grow up, Atlanta Hawks.

By doc

May 5, 2006 12:44 PM | Link to this

ando, im not jockeying for thomas or bozo wells, another guy in that category in my estimation.

you may be right about the outcome and it is going to be fun talking about it afterwards, if it is a good game. both teams have shown up and you cant ask for more than that. d’a is holdong his own as a coach as well.

and, i was about ready to send you the fed-ex mantle when the heat were sucking wind the other night. sometimes restraint is critical. they got off the floor well. i continue to be impressed with dwanye. cant believe that i had dwayne, nash, parker and paul all on my fantasy team this year. isnt there a rule you get to keep four from the previous year. yeah i read that, no kidding.

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 12:46 PM | Link to this

Doc I’ll take Billups any day over Nash. Remember LAL was not picked to be in the playoffs. I want a pg that can take a licking and keep on ticking. Wait till Phx goes up against the real ballers…

LAL blew their best chance to win this series last noght. I don’t like soft guards like Nash, TLue, etc. I support TLue becuz he is a Hawk right now.

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 12:49 PM | Link to this

Oh DOC, I never said I was for LAL either. Go back and reference my posts. I don’t think I’ve ever mentioned a favorite payoff team…

Not until my Hawks are there!

By doc

May 5, 2006 02:57 PM | Link to this

atf, stay awake next time, you have the timex prob not nash. it is also about balancing energies, yin and yang of life, nash does it pretty well. if you dont think he could have quit he has had two chances to say it wasnt meant to be, once when kobe knocked it down in la and then when raja falls for the phil/kobe rope a dope. what you may be missing is the steel in his heart and will.

never implied you were a lakers fan, if you were, you would be conditioned to stay up past midnight and i would have seen your post at 2 am.

it will be fun to see if nash makes cassell feel his age, if they get to the next round. that will be an interesting sideshow.

now, lets enjoy the show.

By The Flash

May 5, 2006 04:24 PM | Link to this

Doc, I’m an incredible night person usually, but fell asleep early in the third quarter. Did my man Kwame continue to get it done. I almost fell off the coach when dear ole Doug, otherwise know in these parts as MJ’s lacky, said that maybe Kwame would up his intensity if he got more offensive touches, if they looked to throw the ball into him. Hell, if they had done that in DC, and let the kid grow, as we all are allowing with our youngins, they might have had the number 1 that they selected.

And, they pay that guy!!!! Is America a great country or what.

By HB Ando

May 5, 2006 05:38 PM | Link to this

Interesting mock draft opinions from the Dime guys. If slots were to remain static, they suggest that Morrison would be Portland’s pick (I’ll assume he’s tops on their list if they drop a few slots as well). What’s a bit bizarre, though some may approve, is that they have us passing on Aldridge to take Marcus Williams. I can say right now, without hesitation, that if we pass on an agile 7-footer, to take a point guard, when we passed on the best one to come out in 10 years, I will resign my commission as blog member and Atlanta Hawks’ fan (here’s your chance to run me off, Billy). Just the idea of this team with Paul and Aldridge, versus Williams and Williams, is enough to make me throw my hands up in defeat.

I wonder if the Orlando Magic has a fan blog. They seem to rebuilding with a clue. Still can’t believe they got Darko and Arroyo, two guys who could start here, for the expiring contract of Cato and a pick. Seems we could have given them the expiring contract of Al, and Delk (oh yeah, we made our opinion of Delk so obivious that they simply waited until we waived him instead of giving us anything for him) and obtained those two. I can’t wait to see what the final return is for Al. I expect another Billy Knight disappointment special.

By Astro Joe

May 5, 2006 05:55 PM | Link to this

Ando, I am guessing that you too read/heard that Woody was not interested in trading for Darko when he was approached by BK. Woody, you may recall, was with the Pistons coaching staff during Darko’s early years in the league. I guess BK should be ridiculed for asking his head coach with personal experience on a player for his advice and then taking it. I also think it interesting that you are giving any validity to a website that originally had the Hawks selecting Mario Williams at DE from NC State (it tok them 2 days to correct that glaring mistake). That said all I needed to know about NBA mock drafts from foxsports.com. You seem to go out of your way to refuel your “I hate BK” fixation. By the way, I hear he has something to do with the Falcons’ offensive line and the Braves bullpen too.

By The Flash

May 5, 2006 06:39 PM | Link to this

Got to say, no surprises here, on this most recent battle of the galactic giants on this blog, Ando vs. Astro, I bow to the Ando man; Woody really nixed a deal for Darko? Now, even I am at a loss for words.

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 08:14 PM | Link to this

Doc let’s set the record straight. Steve Nash is a proven regular season “winner” not a playoff winner – yet! He has to prove he can take the as_ whopping that is thrown at you at every level/stage of the playoff run. I like Ron Harper/Billips/Wade types – big, tough guards. Phx is struggling with LAL – that is not good…

By HB Ando

May 5, 2006 08:46 PM | Link to this

Actually, Joe, you’re a day late and a dollar short on this one. Just so you can readjust your historical reference on timing, I suggested seeking out Darko and Arroyo to Sekou last summer. I figured since Woody came from Detroit, he’d have an opinion on Darko (which should not be confused as conceding that it should be taken as a valid opinion, as his handling of Diaw suggests that he’s not above reproach). So I asked SS point blank. Sekou indicated that Woody was not a fan of Darko. Take that for what it’s worth, but I’ll put in print, right now, that if Darko gets 30 minutes plus next season, he’ll be in the top-5 of shot blocking average. And I’ll still stand by the opinion that Arroyo is better than anyone we have playing point guard (as long as we agree that Johnson is a shooting guard, moonlighting as a PG on Billy’s fatally flawed roster).

But, what’s still at consideration here, is whether we’ll get anything at all for Al Harrington. If you don’t believe that we could have obtained Darko and Arroyo for Al and Delk, or a second rounder, then lanquish in the booze that is your dinner, given that a future pick and Cato’s expiring contract, similar to Al’s in numbers, a million miles away from the value Al could have provided to close out a championship, got those two moving to Orlando.

So if we get nada for Al, please tell me how that’s better than the potential of Darko, and the immediate value of a qualified, pass-first point guard in Arroyo. And let me repeat: Darko gets starter minutes in Orlando next year, he is top five in blocks (2.1 blocks per game in 21 minutes after arriving in Orlando). Anybody else remember what this team sadly lacked in the paint this past season?

What say you, oh genius, Joe? Offer me the defense of no compensation for the number two rated, unresticted free agent in the NBA. Tell me that I’ve lost my mind to think that Detroit would have passed on Al Harrington, AND his expiring contract, and the Delk that they scrambled to sign after letting us waste his talents on our bench all season, for the un-re-signable Darko and a viable point guard, for the team who calls Royal a starter. And tell me you believe that we’ll end up with more than the sum of those two, in an off-season sign-and-trade. Once again it seems you’ve let some sense of a mano e mano between us, separate you from your otherwise reasonable perspective.

I await your counter punch, which I truly hope carries more weight than your first attempt………Seems you showed up with a Patrick Kennedy cocktail for your last post.

By doc

May 5, 2006 09:28 PM | Link to this

atf, yeah i think kobe and phil are looking for a ron harper kind of guy as well. it was a cute story of smush but he has just about run out of rope. he and royal are probably the weakest starting guards in the nba. we will help someone get a good contract with the lakers this summer. :-)

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 10:25 PM | Link to this

Was/Cle game is “No Joke.”

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 10:34 PM | Link to this

3:21 CLE - L. James makes a 27-foot three-pointer from the right wing 3:33 WAS - G. Arenas makes a 26-foot three-pointer from the left wing 3:56 CLE - D. Marshall makes a 23-foot three-pointer from the left corner 4:13 WAS - A. Daniels makes shot. Assist: G. Arenas 4:28 CLE - R. Murray makes a 22-foot three-pointer from the left corner. Assist: L. Hughes

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 10:37 PM | Link to this

2:00 CLE - D. Marshall makes a 25-foot three-pointer from the right wing. Assist: L. James

By Sekou K. Smith

May 5, 2006 10:43 PM | Link to this

Let me stick my nose in here for just one minute. Ando, I thought I was the one who made the Arroyo-Darko suggestion (on this blog)? I know you’re good, but share some of this love baby. As for pre-trade takes on Darko, Mike Woodson was of the opinion that young fella had a ways to go when he was in Detroit. But for anyone to assume that he nixed a potential deal for Darko is simple foolishness. You guys are giving Woodson way too much credit for the debacle that was the Hawks’ roster this season. Do you think he didn’t want more big men and a point guard? Are you mad? (and before anyone says it, I talked to Diaw last week, he made it clear again that he demanded to be traded and wasn’t particular about where).

The fact is, coaches don’t view the building of a team the same way GMs and owners (real and fantasy) do. They want to win yesterday and will almost always opt for experienced and established talent over potential. I mean, what coach in his right mind would dismiss a deal that included the point guard and big man he so desperately needed?

To the best of my knowledge, said deal was never offered to the Hawks. I’ve talked to people in Detroit about it and the Hawks were never a part of the equation, not even potentially. The most discussion it got was on this blog. And when Tony Delk was released, I made it a point to toss it around again. I’ll say now what I said then, it’s arguably the most egregious move the Hawks (did not) make this past season, considering what Orlando had to give up to get those two young guys. Darko has a chance to be a major contributor for the Magic and Arroyo provides solid depth for any team at one of the most crucial positions on the floor. The worst part is the Pistons didn’t blink when it came time to let them go. So how freakin’ good are they.

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 10:55 PM | Link to this

02.3 WAS - G. Arenas makes a 29-foot three-pointer from the right wing. Assist: J. Jeffries

By A Thinking Fan

May 5, 2006 11:17 PM | Link to this

Does this sound familiar?

DEERFIELD, Ill. (AP) — The Chicago Bulls’ shortcomings were as obvious as their scrappiness.

They need a big man who can score in the post, some height in the backcourt and a veteran.

By HB Ando

May 6, 2006 03:30 AM | Link to this

This quote is cut and pasted from your e-mail response to my suggestion that we look into Darko and Arroyo, on 6/23/05:

“Larry Hughes won’t be allowed to leave the Wiz. And the Pistons can keep Darko. Woody was a skeptic of him last year in Detroit just like everybody else.”

Now, because I’m not trying to reinvent history, I’ll admit that my first suggestion about obtaining Darko and Arroyo, to Sekou, seems over priced, given what Orlando ultimately paid. But I’m honest, so I’ll cut and paste the quote I e-mailed to Sekou which led to his response above (understanding that I didn’t think Williams, at #2 was any better prospect than Darko, a previous #2, and that it was clear that Diaw was going to be traded, one way or the other). My e-mailed suggestion was:

“1) Diaw and the #2 to Detroit for Darko and Arroyo- Darko will leave as soon as he can, he can’t get minutes behind that front line and the only way they can get fair value is to trade him for a pick sooner than later. Arroyo isn’t getting off the bench there, but he’s starter quality. They can draft Williams and develop him. Woodson should know whether this makes sense, depending on his opinion of Darko’s true upside. “

Now, I’ll forward the actual e-mail strings to anyone who doesn’t believe that this is the series of communications between myself and Sekou. Bro, I’m only going on what you e-mailed me last June, in response to Woody’s opinion on Darko, via his time in Detroit.

Not looking for a fight, just cut and pasting the communications from the past………..

So the fact that Al/Delk was never discussed, when Cato and a pick purchased those two, is only reinforcement that management isn’t on the ball. Again, I ask, would Detroit take the expiring contract of Harrington, a viable championship contributor, and Delk, a guy they waited us out on, over Cato, with similar expiring contract, and a pick? I just can’t imagine that Detroit would have taken Cato, who they never intended to use, over the rent-a-player value that Harrington would have provided, as well as Delk, who we released for no compensation, only to see the best team in the NBA snatch him up, for the potential upside that Darko and Arroyo would have provided a team lacking both a 4/5 and a point guard.

If I’m way off base, please feel free to correct me. I can go back and clarify from our communications last summer if that helps.

By Sekou K. Smith

May 6, 2006 07:56 AM | Link to this

Ando, you mentioned Darko and Arroyo for Diaw and the No. 2 last summer. But my response to that seemed light years from Woody nixing a deal. From the way it looks, all I said is that Woody (like the rest of the world) wasn’t sold on Darko in Detroit. The way your earlier post read was like a Fox News report, where something is said and then all sorts of other conclusions are made from one simple statement. I only mentioned that Woody was a skeptic, not that he didn’t think Darko had a chance and would have refused to coach or play him.

But the suggestion that you trade Al and Delk for Arroyo and Darko (once it became clear that the Pistons were going to deal those guys) was made publicly in this forum. It was debated up and down by the massess. So we’re arguing two different points. And what you suggested for those two, in my opinion, would have been a much steeper price than anyone should have been willing to pay (The No. 2 pick and Diaw for two backups on most teams? Me thinks not). That No. 2 pick could have been Chris Paul and Boris Diaw. There’s no way I would have made that deal. And I don’t think many people would.

But the fact that you keep all correspondence, dating back to last summer even, has an eerie, Watergate feel to it. I almost feeling like you’re a covert operative sent here by the Bush administration to make sure we don’t bash his team. So don’t go burning your arm to show your loyalty or anything like that. We all know that you know what you’re talking about.

By Astro Joe

May 6, 2006 01:52 PM | Link to this

Sekou, once agian I will defer to you. But I am like 95% confident that I heard Bernie Mullen say on the Breakfast with Bernie Friday morning show that Woody nixed any potential deal for Darko when either Perry or Dukes asked him about it. Now I personally would have called Detroit but I do not think that Dumars had a need for Al as much as he does for Cato. I think he wants Cato’s 6 fouls for Shaq and Cato’s insertion on that team would in no way disturb the playing rotation nor chemistry of that team. Al would command playing time and would certainly disrupt the team’s flow (and doesn’t provide anything that Detroit truly needs to win the title). Would I have tried to acquire Darko and Arroyo? Absolutely. But trying and accomplishing are two different things. Ando wants BK to play out his hand in front of fans and media. To hold a press conference everytime he gets an idea about a player. To copy Sekou on every email he sends to a GM. To invite some bloggers to eavesdrop on phone calls to Paxton, Zeke and other GMs. I don’t think that I have to be a genius (but I appreciate the complement) to know that negotiating in the public is a losing proposition.

By HB Ando

May 6, 2006 01:54 PM | Link to this

Dude, it was just a follow up. And I agree that they’re different points. And I definitely agree that it was a way overpriced, brainstorming, one off comment. The issue of keeping correspondance is pretty simple. I never throw out anything, and Outlook has a quick search component. I put your name in and it pulls up our e-mails. My point was that seeking Arroyo and Darko was something that my Pete and I thought up last summer. And when Orlando got them on the cheap we were once again left somewhat disappointed that our club wasn’t responsive to they’re logical availability. I think there are a handful of teams Arroyo could start for. And I think that Darko is going to prove to be a really good player.

Even you’ve acknowledged that I was a firmly of the belief that we should take Paul, BEFORE the draft. So clearly my primary preference for how to utilize that pick was in that fashion. At the point where it became clear that we were leaning Williams way, it was merely tossing out some ideas about alternate uses for leveraging the value of the pick.

Again, from my perspective, this isn’t a disagreement between the two of us. Just a conversation about the past.

And don’t EVER place me in the same sentence as Bush (lol). That’s a nasty thing to do to a brother.

By HB Ando

May 6, 2006 02:02 PM | Link to this

Joe, there you go again, speaking for me. Your representation of what I expect from BK, in terms of communication, is just off base. I’m a pretty literal guy. If you want to sum up my opinions, quote me. Short of that, you’re creating your own version of my position. And your wrong when you do.

What Ando wants if for BK to do something, hell, anything, to improve this team. What Ando wanted was for BK to make a move or two to address the blatant imbalance of the roster HE created, during the season, to give this team a chance to win some more ball games. What Ando wants now, this summer, is to see some signs that there is a true plan to rebuild this franchise. He wants to see some effort to reduce the potential value of the pick we will give to Phoenix for Johnson in ‘07. That’s all Ando really wants.

By Malone

May 6, 2006 03:19 PM | Link to this

What first round playoff losers would make potential off-season trade partners with the Hawks?

Seems like either Memphis, Chicago, or Washington would all be looking for pieces to add.

By Malone

May 6, 2006 03:38 PM | Link to this

I think instead of drafting a point guard (weak draft for PGs), we should offer our top draft pick and Harrington.

Who do you people think we could get for this ATTRACTIVE package?

By HB Ando

May 6, 2006 06:31 PM | Link to this

Malone, there are issues surrounding the signing of Al that keep him from being traded before the draft. I don’t think any of the teams that you mention would give up a better player than Al to get him and our pick. They’d be looking to add that one piece, and in your scenario it’s subtraction through addition. I still believe those teams might be realistic destinations for Al, specifically Chicago (Washington has Jamison, so I don’t think he’d be what they were looking for). Most likely, we get a young player, who’s not fully developed, but has upside, in a trade for Al (and/or a replacement pick for the ‘07 first rounder we’re likely sending to Phoenix for Johnson, unless it’s a top three pick in that draft).

Joe, here’s a simple comment from Orlando’s GM that would be nice to hear from Billy:

“We’re not going to go crazy in free agency [this summer],” Smith admits. “[But] we’re not just going to sit idly by [and wait for ‘07] either. We’re going to try to get better this summer and put a product on the floor we can be proud of next season.” SI.com

It says to their fans that the organizations shares their desire to make moves to get better. We can’t even get something this simple out of Billy. It’s about respecting the fans. Billy’s silence is arrogant and disrespectful to the folks who buy tickets.

By HB Ando

May 6, 2006 06:32 PM | Link to this

Instead, all we get is crap like, “A lot of people think we need a point guard, but I’m not sure I think that’s true”. Genius. Billy is smarter than the rest of the basketball world. Can you say 26 wins again?

By Astro Joe

May 6, 2006 08:55 PM | Link to this

Ando, I will agree with you all day long with regard to BK and his statements to the media. Like I said, it iis very clear that he has no interest in speaking to the fans. Likewise, it is clear that the owners are also pretty PR-unsavvy, as they have not identified another “voice” of the Hawks (unless it is Nique and that is not working either).

Exactly what insightful meaning did you get from Otis Smith’s comment? That he will try to improve his team? Wow. Didn’t we already get that comment from BK in February at the trade deadline? What, do you need for him to repaet it for you?

My issue, Ando, is that you continue to put everything at BK’s feet without acknowledging that at a minimum, the owners are either bad or in suspended animation. If you choose to believe they have the resources and the willingness to do something, yet their employee is playing with himself in his office while all other franchises attempt to get better, then they are absentee landlords and idiots. If you choose to believe (as I do) that they are well intentioned but have virtually suspended major transactions while looking for more resolution to the legal mess, then you cut BK some slack. (No one blames Scherholtz for not having a $150M payroll because we all know that the owners have set a budget. Probably for legal reasons, the Spirit has not come out and explicitly said the same, but common sense dictates that they too have drawn a financial line in the sand).

If you disagree with draft picks, fine. But to blame BK for his lack of activity during the trade deadline and project that any inactivity this off-season is exclusively his fault is comparable to laying all the blame for a bad foreign policy at the feet of the Secretary of State while showing silent indiffernce to the President.

By doc

May 6, 2006 10:25 PM | Link to this

aj, the torch is passed. it has been comforting to see someone else provide a similar perspective right or wrong to the actions of bk. one only has to look at the clips to see how a good guy like e. baylor can be handicapped by ownership issues. different song but same tune.

the problem is no one knows who the ownership is or will be no matter how hard they posture with the media and fans.

now any of you suns detractors ready to put 25 points down and your money on them now. i will be happy to play that game. it is a clinic. as far as the lakers does anyone disagree that the lakers need the same thing that the hawks do in a big and a stud guard?didnt think so. they probably could use an al about now to help with the scoring, kobe has absolutely nothing to pass off to. odum raised himself down to his usual level with the cheapie that he put in on barbosa, it was only a matter of time before he self destructed.

now lets check out the fourth to see if kobe can play superman.

By doc

May 6, 2006 10:54 PM | Link to this

sekou, the “steak” on the barbie out their in l.a. missed the heart. give em their props man. :-)

By Sekou K. Smith

May 6, 2006 11:18 PM | Link to this

Props given. The Suns bowed up and laid the smacketh down on the Lakers, who mind-bogglingly ran up a 3-1 lead against a team without an inside presence and decided to do everything they could to ignore that fact for the final three games of the series.

I still say the system the Suns run is second-to-none when it’s run to perfection. Who would have guessed Barbosa would wind up being the MVP of the series?

And again, my gripe about Nash winning back-to-back MVPs isn’t a knock on dude. I just think D’Antoni’s system has made a world of difference and the proof is in all the guys on the roster who would be pedestrians elsewhere playing like superstars in that system. It doesn’t make any of those guys “system” guys and it certainly doesn’t dismiss the value of a player like Nash, who is a fine player but a back-to-back MVP?

The Clippers won’t offer much resistance either, though they’re much more sound inside and can probably adapt to the Suns’ preferred pace better than any team I can think of not named Dallas or Sacramento.

This Lakers collapse, by the way, has to be attributed to someone. Is it Kobe, Phil or the return to earth of guys like Smush Parker, Luke Walton and Kwame Brown?

By Astro Joe

May 6, 2006 11:40 PM | Link to this

Sekou, I vote for the reality that Kupchak has given that team next to nothing. Think the Lakers could use a first round pick? They don’t have one. I’m not sure about their salary cap situation. But is there any real reason for Lakers fans to feel that next year will be much different than this year? See you later Mr. Odom.

By doc

May 6, 2006 11:51 PM | Link to this

barbossa is a great case in point on how good a coach d’antoni is. did you hear him say HE made a huge mistake in what he expected of barbosa, felt he should have been a point and all of a sudden realized he had a big time scorer instead and adjusted his game to barbosa not the other way around. i wish bk and woody heard the stand up take of admitting a mistake and also the need for flexibility when dealing with personel. lets also not jump back on the train of comparison, diaw is not playing the same position that he came to play eithernor the one the hawks needed him to play. it just again shows d’antoni’s insights and expertise. he is a coach who didnt back down to the zen man and kept his team focused. give him the cred and quit looking for someone to blame on the other team.

with that said did you hear what kobe said about diaw,”that guy can play his a** off. sounded like a bit of respect he couldnt give to raja. been saying a long time that odum wouldnt show when needed, kwayme wasnt big time, smush is sweet but mush and walton not a guy that can come in and rescue. three of the four would not start for premiere teams. the lakers still need some real players and maybe they were playing over their heads the first few games and got “lucky”. sorry sam, but are you still a believer?

the clips and the suns will be a study in contrast and will signal what can be done to slow the d’antoni train. cagey guard to match nash but does he have enough gas in the tank or is nash slowed by the ankle? inside game for the clips that is talented, strong and athletic that plays smart that could slow it down to a more pedestrian pace. i think the clips could create some problems for the suns but even if they dont others can take notice.

good games in the first round but no surprises. like barkley said now we are down to the good teams but only five with realistic expectations to be more than pretenders.

By Samuel

May 7, 2006 08:52 AM | Link to this

The Suns ran the Lakers out of the gym. Of course the Lakers were playing over their heads as most didn’t even expect them to make the playoffs. The Suns are a better team and Nash is MVP.

All this talk of “system” player or not makes no sense to me. Whenever any player is successfull it is directly a result of the system. Is Shaq a system player. Hell yea. Put him on the Suns and see how his numbers dip.

Doc, yea im a Laker fan but i’m more of a basketball fan and I really love the Pheonix style. That’s the only style I know. I can’t stand that “ball control” crap. Eventhough the Lakers still got “scrubbed” and probably would have anyway. I believe they should have fast breaked more. If you gonna beat me, beat me playing ball.

The next series should be another good one. The Clippers’ inside guys should be able to hit “a freekin 5 footer” so it should be a better series. “Sam I am” better be drinkin his Geratol, Crunk Juice and anything else. He’s got a long series ahead of him. Nash gotta be on Ritilin or something. The way the Suns are playing right now I wouldn’t put anything past them. Barbosa is a stud. Is there anyway we can get him.

By HB Ando

May 7, 2006 02:21 PM | Link to this

Joe, does the fact that I’ve acknowledged ownerships’ role in the lack of activity, here on this site, multiple times, not count? Once again, for the nth time, you’ve attributed a position to me that isn’t mine. We’ve spent nearly as much time discussing the instability of ownership, which has been furthered by the ongoing battles, as we have my opinions on Billy’s ability as a GM, and his unwillingness to treat the fans with respect. This a revenue-driven sport, which relies on the satisfaction of potential ticket buyers for a franchise to succeed. So adding poor PR/attitude to questionable draft picks and failure to address obvious problems with the roster contruction, that was completely his charter (and that’s straight from ownership’s mouths), all combine, to me, to support my belief that we don’t have the right guy running our franchise.

What’s unclear to you about my mentioning Smith’s comments? I simply said it would be nice to hear something, anything, that acknowledged the desire of fans to see their team improved. Instead, when he does bother to speak, his comments tend towards the contrarian of the views of the fans, saying he’s not so sure we need a point guard. One thing that’s lacking from your logic of ownership hamstringing BK from making a move, say with Al, before the deadline, is that, given the nature of the salary cap in the league, they’d just have been swapping out salaries. So how do financial concerns keep them from trading Al for a like cap consideration, to address the point or paint, prior to the deadline? And, again, I’ll say that the proof will be in the pudding when we determine what, if anyting, we receive as compensation for Al.

I’ll ask you again, to refrain from misrepresenting my positions. I speak about as clearly as anyone you’ll find here. And you have well-defined enough, and differing, opinions, that it shouldn’t be necessary to misquote me to secure your thoughts.

By HB Ando

May 7, 2006 02:28 PM | Link to this

Sekou, I think your question about the Lakers’ role players coming back to earth is nearly rhetorical. Smush Parker. Luke Walton. The disappointing (but slowly improving) Kwame Brown? Look at the pedigrees of these guys, in an NBA context. Parker is a journeyman. Walton will always be a backup. I guess you can lay some blame to Odom, but the fact is that the Lakers roster isn’t that good. I’d be more inclined to give Phil some credit for taking a shaky roster and getting them to play to what is likely their optimal potential. They gave Phoenix a great match. I thought they’d knock them off, and they certainly had their chances (though once it went to seven, I didn’t think the Lakers could pull off a road upset n Phoenix).

And Joe, actually, the Lakers have the 26th pick, via the Heat, in the first round of this years’ draft. Not that they’ll get any immediate help from that slot, but you were wrong when you said they didn’t.

By Samuel

May 7, 2006 03:44 PM | Link to this

Ando,

I think we need a couple of bigs more than a PG. What if we let Al walk and use that space to sign Jackie Butler and draft Farmar or Aldridge. If the owners want to keep cost down. This is an idea. Stll a tremendous upgrade.

Our youngsters will have another year under their belt. Positions interchangable.

G- JJ, Childress G- Salim or Farmar/Williams SF- Josh Smith or Marvin PF- Za Za or Aldridge C- Butler, Za Za

By The Flash

May 7, 2006 03:47 PM | Link to this

Astro, you posit two possiblities for inactiona but continue to ignore the most logical, and from the start, predictable one: there is no single they that speaks with one voice, except on one issue, Belkin. My suspicion, in fact in other venues, when this thing went down was that getting rid of belkin was the first and last thing the “big three” would agree on; that this would continue to be one big game of king of the hill, with aliances being made and broken just like so many light bulbs.

The reason, I suspect and have said repeatedly, that I think that no body pulled the triger on anything meaningful, is that you got three fingers on the trigger and all going in different directions from day-to-day. The only thing that these guys have in common is that they resented Belkin’s having been out there as the face of the team, with the power to veto moves. Now, having overspent on JJ in terms of perhaps money (not that he ain’t worthit, relax, just that he didn’t draw the way they had hoped) but certainly draft picks which was the smart way to build, they now are confronted with trying to come together on what to do next in terms of moves, and THEY CAN NOT. To make matters worse, having emasculated BK, if Doc is right, and he sold his voice to the highest bidder, are they really going to trust him with their hard (yeah right) earned cash? Seems not. So they do not trust one another and do not respect BK, although throwing him under the bus now would be very politically inexpediant, you got a completely disfunctional front office.

Come now, somebody come forward and explain how all this is Belkin’s fault. I’m sure there’s somebody out there. Stevie B., you want to tell us how Larry Bird didn’t go into business with Belkin, even though they worked on a deal together for years. I’m sure you guys will come up with something wildly inventive, you always do. Only, as Robert Zimmerman, aka Bob Dylan, put it, “that dog won’t hunt?” Actually, the way he put it wa, “You don’t need a weather man to know which way the wind blows.” We all know and it stinks!

By doc

May 7, 2006 05:04 PM | Link to this

i am not entering this one but i thought that at some point it was suggested it best to stick to basketball and the thrill of the nba. i imagine we will have a lot to chew on in the off season along those lines as court proceedings enlghten us. flash, cant remember if ti was you who suggested it but it seems you be the one who cant drop this one that starts with a b. i refuse to say the name at this point and await court proceedings. :-)

on to the (un)reality of the nba.

since it was part of the inital blog…..

still cant get why so many have been so reluctant to give the mvp award to nash. the voters gave it to him in a “landslide”. i am not detracting from the body of works of others, that isnt my way usually. the other folks were deserving but all have had things added to their teams since the last season or have not lost significant components to their mix during the season whereas nash hasnt and has respectively.

what has nash done? his individual numbers have improved over his mvp season last year for one. despite the loss of amare for the whole season and k thomas 2/3 of the way through the season his team did not miss a beat. okay, heard the word system. well he enacts what his coach wants better than almost anybody has done in the game, the proverbial coach on the floor and that is, both ends of the floor. what else you ask if that is not enough? he didnt quit or make complaints, whine, blame, or make excuses. that is the penultimate guy you want as your leader to go into battle with. he has tremendous mental toughness exhibited by his performance into the off season.

think someone recently said for the big game he wanted kobe not nash, look who stood up and delivered and didnt quit. you didnt say that but atf where is the props man, the guy is tougher than steel and you want him to lift more than his team? who doesnt think if he wanted to he couldnt avg 25 or 30 a game if he desired to make himself more “worthy”?

By clyde

May 7, 2006 05:57 PM | Link to this

I have a challege for all yall Billy Knight lovers out there. I can name ten mistakes he has made during his time as general manager. So I want yall to name ten good decisions he has made. If he’s doing such a good job it won’t be hard. FIRE BILLY AND WOODY

By Samuel

May 7, 2006 07:11 PM | Link to this

Doc,

What impresses me so much about Nash is his humility. He knows he’s good but always “plays it off” and lets others verify his abilities. He could have made excuses after game 5 but didn’t. He just came back and kept pushing. He’s one of the most unique players i’ve ever seen. A real throwback PG. I guess Tiny Archibal is the closest player I can think of that Nash reminds me of. I didn’t see Cousey ,except on film.

The Mavs/Spurs was a good first game. The Mavs didn’t get it done. Bad play by Stackhouse. Dirk still has the monkey on his back. He still has not shown that he can come thru in the clutch during playoffs. How can you not get a shot off in single coverage.

By doc

May 7, 2006 07:34 PM | Link to this

sam, it doesnt surprise me that you picked up on that and admire it, definitely a throwback kind of attitude. did you see his interview?, no gosh gee or shucks im not that good but took a lot of time to pass out cred for his teammates and even said he felt dirk was his choice but stressed the honor of it.

above, i said he was the perfect blend of pistol pete and cous, showtime with clarity. saw them both, even thought i could be a cous, i certainly was slow enough as i was a pre-teen during his great years and the start of the celtic run. i was a hawks fan even when they were in st louis but never begrudged the string the celts put together. ranks right up there but not ahead of the yanks run between the end of the war and 1964. something like 15 world series in that span but couldnt stand them.

By HB Ando

May 7, 2006 08:59 PM | Link to this

Guys, there’s no doubt (and as a coach, Sam, I know this is where you’re coming from) that the NBA would be far better product if kids emulated Nash’s approach. And I don’t view the discussion as an either/or scenario (like most points we pick through). I’ve said before that Nash as the MVP isn’t a right or wrong issue. And, no matter what the sport, there will always be differing opinions on post-season awards (as there are for who makes, and doesn’t make, the all-star teams). So nobody has to be right or wrong on the MVP and Nash. It’s just a conversation about differing perspectives of what qualifies as MVP (again, which happens at the end of every baseball season as well).

Is it the most dominant player, individually an statistically (look at Lebron’s and Kobe’s numbers) or is the best, or most important, player on a team that has significant success. Seems like the definition is, and always has been, a moving target. If everyone could agree on how the award is defined, there would likely be little to discuss on who ends up with it.

By doc

May 7, 2006 09:21 PM | Link to this

just better to chat about this than the b word ando and to relish in what makes the game so interesting and a pleasure to continue to follow. dont know as much about dirk’s game but have learned a bit as you relish in his game.

ando, was kind of giving you some props when i mentioned that nash felt his “good buddy” dirk deserved it for what he has done this year. unfortunately, dirk doesnt make it to primetime dollars as evidence by the shabby placement of the former champs and potentially an early series that really pits two of the best three teams in the nba on at 12:30. go figure, so we get the kobe’s and the labron’s shoved down our throats as prime time mvp’s instead of some other really good players and teams.

not begging or baiting for an argument as much as a discussion.

this is also the time of the season we can take a break from watching our own team and enjoy what is out there. this is almost like an intense march madness every day and i get withdrawals every year when tnt signs off, that my bball jones wont get a fix for about four to five months. it is almost anti-climactic to go onto the finals.

By A Thinking Fan

May 7, 2006 09:41 PM | Link to this

The NBA adopted the “Thug & Hip Hop” image for marketing purposes, now it’s out. It’s all about dead prezs (dollars). Nash and his so-called clean cut; play the game “the-right-way” will last as long as it puts BIS (Butts-in-Seats) and sell nba merchandise - PERIOD!!!

By doc

May 7, 2006 09:50 PM | Link to this

atf, do you think the voters have been “persuaded”? dont quite buy all your cynicism especially after the way the clean cut spurs and mavs were given the lesser card today. just cant buy that explanation though the dollar obviously drives the game. with that said labron should have won as he got to play the “star” game and boy did they not show not ready for prime time. pistons are a far cry from the wiz.

By Samuel

May 7, 2006 09:51 PM | Link to this

Actually,

Eventhough I like Nash’s attitude I could care less what kind of attitude he has. He’s MVP because he gets it done between the lines. I also loved Ali and he was pretty much opposite in attitude but still got it done.

While we’re on awards. I just saw my boy, Barry Bonds, jack an upper decker on Philly and fans are actually booing him. What idots. Little kids booing the best ballplayer they will ever get a chance to see personally. I noticed that you called him a cheat. Wonder why.

By A Thinking Fan

May 7, 2006 09:52 PM | Link to this

Check out this links:

Hip-Hop Culture Contributes to NBA’s Bad Rap (washingtonpost.com) Hip-Hop Culture Contributes to NBA’s Bad Rap. By Michael Wilbon. Thursday, November 25, 2004; Page D01. Not everything that ails the NBA is solved by the … www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A11188-2004Nov24.html - Similar pages

Agenda Inc. Live Feed - NBA in midst of hip-hop culture shift NBA in midst of hip-hop culture shift Sport. bask1204.jpg The face of professional basketball no longer wears Magic Johnson’s familiar smile. … news.agendainc.com/mt-agenda/content/archives/2004/12/nbainmidst_of.html - 14k - Cached - Similar pages

Media Matters - Limbaugh on NBA fight: “This is the hip-hop … This is the hip-hop culture on parade. This is gang behavior on parade minus the guns. That’s the culture that the NBA has become. … mediamatters.org/items/200411230007 - 30k - Cached - Similar pages

NBA Culture Clash Is Generation Gap Maybe the NBA is too hip-hop for its audience. Maybe the urban culture, with its braggadocio and rebellion, is too much for the predominantly older, … www.blackathlete.net/artman/publish/article_095.shtml - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

Hip-hop culture is part of NBA’s bad rap - NBA - MSNBC.com League and club executives decided to marry the NBA to hip-hop, … themes of thug life that are admittedly the prerequisite values of the hip-hop culture. … msnbc.msn.com/id/6583353/ - 60k - Cached - Similar pages

The NBA Dunkadelic Nation, Basketball and Hip-Hop Culture. - www … The NBA Dunkadelic Nation, Basketball and Hip-Hop Culture. … white parents did not buy these shoes.. hip hop an the gansta culture is ruining the game … denverpost.ezboard.com/fdenverpostsportsfrm9.showMessage?topicID=100.topic - 34k - Cached - Similar pages

AllHipHop.com : Daily Hip-Hop News The dress code is a decisive shift away from the hip-hop culture that has become a fabric of the NBA during the past years. While some players wear suits or … www.allhiphop.com/Hiphopnews/?ID=4962 - 60k - Cached - Similar pages

Sports and Hip-Hop Culture: You Scratch My Back, I’ll Pretend I … I think the NBA is stuck in a cultural hard place that only the NFL comes close to sharing. How do you keep the hip hop culture’s money and not drive off … blogs.foxsports.com/…/01/03/SportsandHipHopCultureYouScratchMyBackIllPretendINeverKnew_You - 71k - Cached - Similar pages

UT Feature Story — Studying a Hip Hop Nation: Pop culture … The answer is hip hop culture. Thirty years ago the phrase “hip hop” did not … to market everything from $140 athletic shoes to candy bars and the NBA, … www.utexas.edu/features/archive/2003/hiphop.html - 31k - Cached - Similar pages

Thug Life Army Blog : NBA Only Looks at Hip-Hop for Revenue So the NBA doesn’t want the players to look hip-hop or portray hip-hop but they (NBA) can target the hip-hop culture to make money off of. … thaspot.thuglifearmy.com/blogs/roberts_blog/archive/2006/02/19/1953.aspx - 20k - Cached - Similar pages

By Samuel

May 7, 2006 10:08 PM | Link to this

ATF,

I think you’re a little late. We had that conversation months ago with the dress code debate.

By doc

May 7, 2006 10:13 PM | Link to this

sam are you asking me about bonds or was it a rhetorical question to all?

nash’s attitude on the court is that of a ninja, he will put a dagger in your heart with the least amount of force he has to with any weapon he has at his disposal. humble attitude off the court.

By A Thinking Fan

May 7, 2006 10:25 PM | Link to this

Steve Nash has a face that is perfect for being the “New Poster Boy” for the nba. The only player of color that would have given him a run for MVP is Grant Hill. However, Grant is old, broken down, and over the hill. The nba is selling worldwide as well as domestically now…

By Samuel

May 7, 2006 10:26 PM | Link to this

Actually, that was directed towards Ando as I believe I saw his comment earlier but have at it. Always great to have your input.

By doc

May 7, 2006 11:19 PM | Link to this

a cheat to the irs, cheat on his wife or cheat when it comes to baseball and doing steroids? too strong to say it but it is greek tragedy at its best but i dont hold bonds responsible for this one it goes to the top with the commish. a traditional commish would not have allowed it to the point that it became.

baseball is the game i played. i was a pitcher and i loved the soft scuffed ball at the end of a game. i was tall with leverage not a hard thrower but had a heavy ball but never threw the ball stratight and hit spots. the majors have guys who scuff or spit or vasoline it so i know the argument of some but it isnt the same as sreoids that affect the game each time up or with each pitch thrown. it is never an equal playing surface between those that do and those that dont.

plus i know that roids have been in the game since the late 60’s. i was playing stan musial ball in the summer and a bud from another program said he was using something that could make me strong and most of his team was on it from their coach. a local college team. said no. so i am not one to say stop the records, what is, is what is. murph, the hawk, rice and foster were the best of their eras but their clean production is superceeded by the excess of the next generation.

roids are great in that they mask pain and you can continue to build even when the body would normally say no due to pain. what bonds needs now is a shot in the knees so he can extend like he did tonight. it was a crunch. in my heart i hope that he can bow out gracefully and leave the record for the next generation of ballplayers. doubt aaron did it as he was beautiful to watch and was about as consistant with production as one could be. it was kind of like bonds was, 40 a year. bonds looks like he got greedy. who is to say if he had continued on the same path his health would be better and the slow and steady would have won the race?

the congressional hearings were a travesty. my take on mcguire was he planted the androstenedione in his locker so he could say he was using what every joe could get at gnc. he was using the good stuff as his silence shows if not he could have chirped up and told the world how he was duped into thinking that something over the counter could be so bad.

before you get caught in too much contradiction they arent good for kids and that is your message. it is estimated that more 15% of high school age athelete boys have used it. that is the real story and i may have underestimated it. the drug is harmful. too many deaths in wrestling and now some of baseball’s stars are having early deaths or old man diseases at an early age. side effect-erectile dydfuntion. who is the poster boy for the industry? palmero. coincidence? think not, despite his finger pointing to that effect.

bonds just needs a little boost of the juice, hgh is not detectable. since he started slow this year maybe he can get a vit b 12 shot like palmero did but from a smarter accccomplice and say he is just playing his way into shape, right. :-) spin it baby. dont let them hustle the toop.

barry did it, what he will have to pay will be determined by many different parameters, first of all physically. i dont judge him to be bad and wouldnt boo him found his hr’s incredible and too much to believe, but he felt he had to do it, so be it.

but yeah the supporting argument says he did, fortunately the lowlives that run those rings are like the worst lowlifes you see on the playgroud trying to influence your kids to do drugs, so you can always plead they are not creditable characters and you cant believe anything they say.

but as they say in the country, if you lie down with dogs that have fleas you end up with fleas.

By Samuel

May 8, 2006 06:30 AM | Link to this

Doc,

Somehow I wanted to believe that your answer would be different. Guess not. So you’re basically saying that, with all the scrutiny thay’s going on, Bonds is “still” to this day taking steriods. How else could a man hit a home run like last night, on one knee and bone chips floating around in his wing. WOW.

Interesting that you are so sure about Foster, Murphy and Rice but doubt Bonds.

I too played a little baseball in my day. From what i see, Barry Bonds has one of the most perfect swings ever, has put in thousands upon thousands of hours in the cage, weight room, and been taught and mentored by some of the best hitting minds in the game. So I guess Tiger is on Riods too or some undetectable substance. How else could he bulk up like that and hit the ball so far.

When I see him single despite having 3 infielders on the right side of the infield and no good pitches to hit then jack a 450 foot shot the next at bat. I just marvel and appreciate it for what i’m witnessing. I could care less that he had to take a shot to relieve the pain. I just enjoy. Just like I do when I pop in a Miles CD or a Morrison CD or Beethoven. I could care less. These people are freeks of nature and I enjoy being entertained.

As for children, there will always be temtations. That’s where parential and spiritual advise come’s in but in the end. It’s their choice to make.

You ever niticed that Bonds chokes up on a 32, WOW.

By doc

May 8, 2006 09:31 AM | Link to this

sam, i think barry is a great ballplayer but you are playing fantasy if you think he could all of a sudden be something he wasnt in his prime of 27 to 34. he is the only ballplayer in the history of the game to improve his numbers so significantly in such a short period over 35 years of age.

i was blown away by that weekend series he had in atlanta, what in 98, should have suspected it then. began to suspect it when the shef went out to train and do “nutrition” with his buddy and all of a sudden came running back here trying to distance himself from the shenanigans. at the time i smelled something, just came out in grand jury though.

i enjoy it too and i said i wasnt being judgmental but calling it the way i saw it. is he on the stuff? dont care anymore. baseball ignored the issue for so long it really doesnt matter about the books either but it will be a time before they can say they are really clean.

maybe the fan doesnt want it to be clean, that it is really bigger than life. it is a hustle, to get the fan in the seats. now why arent there about two or three guys a team punching out the century number on the radar gun, anymore? yeah, pitchers were into it as well as they blew out their arms.

again, the contradiction for you is playing it out to the kids you coach or are around. how do you do it and counsel them correctly? honestly that is something that concerns me more. how are you going to learn about the downsides of roids so you can offer a healthy alternative? how will you educate yourself to its ravages if you havent already? it came with my training but as i said i turned them down when i was ignorant. who knows what i would have done if i had seen it as a way to make 50 milllion and be famous in a lifetime even if i didnt have a chance in hades. that is their cross to bear going forward. sam it isnt going to be pretty to watch these guys age.

it must have been pretty humbling for bonds to be dependent on the low lifes he had to associate with to get the clear and other substances, he really came close to the shadow self we all carry within. havent read the book but read the excerpt in si, if you havent it would be wise if you read one or the other. it isnt fabricated sam. like watergate it describes a culture that you just dont want to come close to but surrounds you.

as far as golf it is there, at least in the long drive competition. drugs and alcohol are part of their culture to keep going as the body is being overused. they are trying to do it healthy with the trailers set up all around for stretching, workouts and massage but it is a fine line and they “got to keep the lifestyle”. will say no to tiger, as he has always tried to hit it shorter than he can. watched him closely at the early masters and he had the quickest hip movement to clear them that allowed the forces he got on the ball, for accuracy he had to get them slowed down but he has been a cut above, always. bonds was as well but not as a home run hitter as he was slight and lean of build sam.

again, my take is how you explain it to the kids you have to deal with or whether you will even try and have you educated yourself to know the difference? that is the perspective i had hoped you would have heard, not whether bonds was or is doing the stuff now as that is his and his bodies problem and waxing eloquetly about the distnctive sound of the crack of the bat, the ball soaring out of the park to hit the facade of the upper deck as the fans stood as one in part to cheer and in lesser part to boo. it was majestic, but fantasy now.

By Samuel

May 8, 2006 10:25 AM | Link to this

Doc,

Just because you can’t understand it does not prove he cheated. You’re not a world class athlete, you’re a Dr.(at least that’s what you say). When Jordan came back at 40 something he was just as good a scorer as he was in his early days. Not as flashy but smarter and stronger.

Actually, I attribute the rise in home runs to many factors, least of which envolve steriods. I don’t have time to go into it right now but I will.

Basically,it all boils down to the fact that people don’t like Bonds and hate the fact that he’s about to break the records. You guys could care less about Palmero, Giombi and whoever else. It’s Barry’s head you want.I hate to call it a Black/White thing but, let’s be real. You can spin it any way you want.90% of the real baseball minds will tell you that he’s the best they’ve ever seen.

As for you worrying about my students and children. You can save it. People who know me know what I stand for.

Stop the Hate and appreciate.

By The Flash

May 8, 2006 11:59 AM | Link to this

Doc, recently been raggin on one of my local media boys about the hypocracy of the bonds/steroids things. We like to get pretty ridiculous; here’s mine.

Recently, Bobby Thompson admitted that in the old Polo Grounds, they used to have a guy in the center field wall, a hole with one of those glasses pirates use, steals the sign, wire to the dugout, sign to the hitter, knows if it’s a one or a two. The bastard admitted that he knew it was a one when he hit the “pitch heard round the world,” giving new meaning to the old cry heard in Brooklyn to this day, “We was robbed.”

So, do you think that they only gave signals to Thompson or maybe also to the say hey kid. And, if he was getting the signals, what are his records worth. The only time he hit over 50 was when he played for the NY Giants. Didn’t come close after that. So, I’ll take these charges against Barry seriously right after they give my team the pennant that was outright stolen from him and when they put an asterisk next to the Say Hey Kid’s name.

By doc

May 8, 2006 12:25 PM | Link to this

please, go back and read what i said or be brave enough to read the book or the article. i never said that, so dont include me in the perjorative “you”. i dont want barry’s head and dont put me in that category. if that is all you want to say then please exclude me from it. it is your right to misinterpret what i say for your benefit, if you desire for whatever reason, but that is not what i was referring to at all. maybe, that is what you want me to say but i havent and i wont. said it in a post above. the commish is the one who turned blind eye on this one. if there is a head to put on a platter it is his. said it before and will say it again. no asterisks beside the records, no penalties for anyone from baseball unless there is blood proof that someone cheated and certainly dont make bonds the fall guy as that was the reaction of many. that has been my stance on this as it broke and everyone heaped up the hate on barry. but in the future make sure the tests are done correctly and to assure the safety of players and the integrity of the game not to get bodies in the stands. that degrades the game i know and love.

sam, i think giambi is on them now because he has blown out his own endocrine system doing the s* and that is what his “illness’ is all about. dont you think it is sadly odd that his illness was due to a pituitary problem. sam that is what shuts down if a doctor over does steroids then takes someone off too quickly. duh! but i think he has passed the line and will require them a lifetime.

i mentioned mcgurie and palmero as fakes and are just as much as caminetti and the other bruise bros that got mcguire started from the oakland team. saw caminetti when he was a good defensive player and singles hitter in houston while i was out there doing vascular training. reminded me of the next cletus boyer who was one of my heroes as a kid. then he became wwf star slugger and mvp, now dead.

not hatin dude, but barry is in that category too, just dont have my head in the sand. as you say it is the kids choice and it certainly was barry’s. he now lives with the cheers and boos. he is a rich man, had his honey in the desert to go to and may have the records. he is as a great ballplayer, his destiny was he wanted more and he may suffer for that pledge to the shadow side. just wont feel sorry for him. the irs may have a go at him or other agencies, it is quite odd that he was omitted from the congressional hearings like they were building a case against him.

please dont put me on that black/white pedestal to topple as people who know me, “know what i stand for” as well, from my childhood on. spent a lot of time with brothers and sisters holding and touching, caring for them at grady or doing surgery on them with their full trust and pulling them through. spent my last five years doing rural care on folks thhat for the most part didnt have insurance or money to pay the rediculous prices for medication they needed. talking simple antibiotics sam. talk about depresssing. spend my time at the soup kitchen now that i have time and wonder how society can miss by such a wide margin.

barking the wrong tree if that is the issue you want me to get into. i think intuitively and instinctively you know that as well, so no harm done. also know there is a lot to be grateful for, it was a towering blow last night.

By doc

May 8, 2006 12:32 PM | Link to this

flash, at that level one is always looking for the edge. the question you have to answer is what were the dodgers doing on their side of the fence plying that game or were they “pure” before you can take back the pennant. my dad is from jersey so i heard that one a lot. thompson still had to hit it, the advantage doesnt work for the stiffs like us. you have to have the basic talent to use the product whatever it is.

By Samuel

May 8, 2006 01:19 PM | Link to this

Doc,

You’re a good man and no doubt a fine MD. I don’t care if you did cheat on a test in Med School. You’re all right with me.

By ILL-logical

May 8, 2006 01:28 PM | Link to this

Great discussions over the last 3 days guys. My point is still that until and unless the Hawks get a dynamite 4,they are just not playing to win. The teams that win ,win at the 4: SA(Tim);DT(Ra-Weed);Dal(Irk-no D). And the Aldridge kid from UT; he is 6-9 and therefor a 4 at best.And again: Marvin Williams is redundant.

By HB Ando

May 8, 2006 03:09 PM | Link to this

Sam, just to put the racism thing to rest, with regards to Barry. I know he believes that it is racism that leads people to root against him to pass the Babe. There’s probably an element of truth in his perception, as racism is obviously very real in this country. And I subscribe to the theory that the whole era has to be taken in the context of what illegal drugs did to player performances. Asterisks are pointless without irrefutable proof, and specific rules governing the acts.

So I’m not interesting in arguing about whether Barry, or McGuire, or Sosa or Palmeiro, or Giambi, or any other players cheated. I think it’s evident that many folks used substances that are illegal and that they made a little mess of historic, individual statistics.

I do not want Barry Bonds to pass Hank Aaron. Aaron has the title, not the Babe. And as far as I can tell, Aaron led his career above reproach from an integrity standpoint. Both are black, so race can’t be an issue in my desire to see someone who’s stats are inflated by illegal drug use not attain the record. My point is that Barry knows if he cheated (and there is substantial and ever-increasing evidence that he did) and out of respect for the game, his late father, and his god-father, Willie Mays, and for Aaron, all men who excelled at the game when racism was much more overt and in their faces on a daily basis, he would know in his heart that he doesn’t deserve to take that crown from Aaron. That guys like Mays and Aaron would look at that accomplishment as tarnished. And since he doesn’t care what 99% of the people in this country think about him, I guess I would find a shred of honor in the man if he bowed out just short of Aaron’s record. Because he knows what he did. And I’d feel the same way if anyone else from that era, that remains under well-founded and supported suspicion, were lining up to break Aaron’s record, white or black. But that’s my perspective on the issue. You, and everyone else, have their rights to see as you see fit.

By Samuel

May 8, 2006 07:02 PM | Link to this

I would have no problem with him tying the record then retiring. Not that he did not deserve to break it but out of respect.

You guys keep throwing words like “evident” and “proof”. Maybe i’m missing something here but I have not seen any of that. Only speculation and rumor. Hell anybody can write a book. Am I right or wrong? If it is “proven” that Bonds used illegal substances im willing to accept the asterisks.

One last thing on the race issue. I normally don’t care too much for T Moore’s writing but he made a lot of sense Sunday when he basically said that Ruth and all the major leaguers who played before blacks were allowed in the majors should be the ones with the asterisks. They were not competing against the best. What say yall?

By doc

May 8, 2006 09:36 PM | Link to this

sam, chill with the race card on this one. go back and read. every guy mentioned by me except bonds is white or of caribbean decent, sosa, canseco, and palmero.

the poster boy for the stuff was brady anderson, dont have proof but are you going to argue the probability little man brady wasnt doing something approximating “clear” the year he hit what 56 taters? sam it is okay, he is white. the guy that offered it to me was a baptist white. it aint about race. now, read the article in si and see if you can be as confident or at least not surprised. i also said no asterisks. it is about cleaning it up for health first, dude, then the game.

speaking of race, it seems that there is a wane of blacks in the game of baseball. reasons?

By Samuel

May 9, 2006 06:44 AM | Link to this

Basketball.

By doc

May 9, 2006 09:45 AM | Link to this

mis-directed energies?

should their be more balance of sports emphasis?

access limited in the rural areas and urban areas as well?

is baseball like soccer and a game of suburbia and rural whites now?

any reason to hope/desire it changes?

By HB Ando

May 9, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Sam, I think a couple of things on that. First, baseball’s talent wasn’t watered down by massive expansion back then, so they were playing against the best of the best of whites. So, if you extrapolated adding blacks to pro baseball, but also accounted for the number of teams there are now, as compared to back then (and this is true of basketball and football as well), then I’d go so far as to say that those issues would have evened out performance numbers. Secondly, Ruth’s numbers were so astronomically superior to any other hitter of his era (the first time he hit over 50 the record was in the 20’s) that it’s just silly to think that Ruth’s greatness is in any way reduceable. I mean, look at other factors like training and the fact that now days kids are groomed for sports. Think about how many young Americans died in World War I who might have been superstars if they’d had the chance to live past their late teens.

Moore has stepped into the sticky wicket that is trying to compare eras. It can’t be done because there are too many extraneous factors to accurately assess what might have been. Moore likes to fire people up. But historians have noted the folly of such comparisons for decades, and I see nothing that changes the logic of avoiding it.

If I had to summarize greatness, comparitively, and generalize the challenges of the era’s, I’d take Ruth for sheer domination of his era, and Mays and Aaron, for dominating in theirs, in the direct face of racism and hate, during their era’s, and I’ll never give Bonds credit for being their peers. I’m not going to put time into compiling a list of the evidence against Bonds for a discussion with you. He’s admitted using “clear” and “cream” substances that he claims his life-long buddy, his personal trainer, gave him, and told him it was flax seed. Come on. They have calenders/schedules from Anderson that indicate cycles for Bonds’ training. Anderson pled guilty to distributing steroids. You expect anyone to believe that all this was happening around Bonds and he had no idea? That Barry didn’t say, “Gee, Greg, that flaxseed oil you gave me added 50 pounds of sheer muscle and made my head grow”? Doesn’t that seem just a little too coincedental to not indicate usage by Bonds? Sam, I have to believe, from all you’ve said over the last 8 months, that you’re way too smart to truly believe that.

Barry took steroids and human growth hormone. A bunch of guys, of various races, used performance enhancing drugs in baseball. Reality is that most of the players in the NFL, over the last 25 years, have too. And a comparison of game film from the NBA in the 70’s and early 80’s compared to the last 10 years makes a compelling case for usage in the NBA, as well. Like I said, this time frame is going to go down in history as the Steroid Era. There’s enough direct, and anecdotal evidence, that a reasonably logical person can come to these conclusions. I’m not sure what the upside is in your maintaining his innocence for him.

By doc

May 9, 2006 08:30 PM | Link to this

sam, terence is trying to do an end run and appear to not be back peddling by trying to discredit others as his startegy. he was vehement in his disgust of barry after he read it. a month later as he described it himself in a scene out of the godfather terence got the word from barry himself that he had stabbed a brother in the back, in front of the willies, mays and mccovey. he had the willies so bad he had to really make a stretch to discredit someone to make himself feel better. sad strategy and why you usually see right through him. pull them all together, read and see if you dont agree.

its tough when the hero falls, sam. i will go ahead and say he was/is the best of his peers that had the opportunity to “train” to the max. he made sure of it. the number of times he lost at bats because of it, shows the fear they had of his prowess. do you, like me, feel if he had played it straight, not had injuries and had all those missed at bats as they walked him he wouldnt have given the record a bit of a run for the money and could have claimed it straight up anyway, clean? you know sam i think he could have and saddened he didnt have the perspective or belief in himself to do it. he also would have been maybe a bit poorer without the big payout the home run star gets. that is the price he pays.

By the Flash

May 11, 2006 05:11 PM | Link to this

This soccer/baseball thing is sad as it applies to kids in cities, at least most cities. Given where sports are for kids these days, and the quality of instruction available and equipment and skill level, decent fields are a requisite to playing those games the way kids want to be playing.

In DC, not available; only decent fields are private schools and colleges. The fall off after that is ridiculous. On the one hand, you’d hope that kids who have to play on dirt fields with clumps of grass here and there would really, really hone their skills, aka like dominicans in street baseball or brazillians in playing with cans in the street, but it does not seem to work that way.

Anyway, especially as kids get older, if they can really play they seek to do it on suburban teams that have terrific training facilities and coaches who are high end and can really make good livings because they put together several teams in different age groups and train like an academy. Leaves the rest of the really good but not terrific players in the city with very limited opportunities; few club teams and too few spots. No where decent to play.

Sad. For sure. Really, nothing that can be done about it, I fear, not when a basketball court is a basketball court is a basketball court, and there are always games to be had.