Hawks

By A Real Fan

September 12, 2005 04:09 PM | Link to this

Any Hawks News?

I want to Talk about the Hawks!

What’s going on with the Hawks?

Hawks,Hawks, HAWKS!

By david

September 12, 2005 04:13 PM | Link to this

Phil Jackson is the most over-rated coach in all of sports. I will enjoy thoroughly enjoy watching the fiasco that will be Lakers basketball this season

By jeff

September 12, 2005 05:25 PM | Link to this

People are quick to call Phil overrated because he coached superstars. The guy won 9 championships! Give me a break! It’s not his fault Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kobe, and Shaq were on his teams. Give him his due. Up to this date, none of them have won it all without it. In terms of straight x’s and o’s, I’d give the nod to Mr.Nomad himself, Larry Brown. But to say that Phil is overrated is disrespectful to all he’s accomplished. If you want to say he hasn’t developed any talent, fine. That’s true. But would Riley have his rings without Kareem and Magic? KC Jones without Bird, McHale and Parrish? Rudy T without Hakeem? Popovich without Duncan (and at one point Robinson)? It would be one thing if Jackson only won one championship. But he maximized his talent. He made lineups with Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman mesh with the likes of Longly, Kukoc, and crippled Ron Harper.

By doc

September 12, 2005 05:28 PM | Link to this

red, phil, riley in that order all time.

for coaching today you have got to like popovich, carlisle and the guy with the jazz. they get the job done year in year out with few superstars. brown is in a self appointed league of his own.

for the hawks the jury is still out, what bothers me is woodson didnt win last year at all. if he doesnt come out of the box this year and we see blowouts …… well. i dont think we can suffer through long streaks of not winning.

some will laugh but stotts did a pretty good job of coaching on the fly, keeping the team competitive and players making the effort against terrible odds to the very last game. we may be sorry he got away with some of the recent players that came through here lately. im glad he gets another chance. i only hope woodson can get the same effort and show us by the style of play that he has a plan and the players understand it.

By tony randolph

September 13, 2005 01:36 AM | Link to this

red auerbach pat riley phil jackson larry brown greg popovich

By Astro Joe

September 13, 2005 09:16 AM | Link to this

Who is Batista? What is Bernie Mullen saying during the weekly interview on 680 The Fan that we should know? What new radio coverage should we expect from 790 The Zone this year? Why haven’t we heard/read many stories about Marvin Williams, a 2nd pick in the draft usually comes with a fair amount of attention. What is the team doing now? Is JJ somewhere learning how to play PG? Who is teaching him? Aren’t Delk & Stoudamire redundant? Who are the Hawks considering for the NBDL?

There seems to be so much more to write about, but instead we get blogs about NBA coaches, another team’s franchise and old topics like Belkin.

Is it that the city is not interested in the NBA or is it that the AJC can’t find writers who will work hard to dig up relevant stories about our local team?

By AaronB

September 13, 2005 12:36 PM | Link to this

You know Astro Joe has a point. I have to dig for any such information, when my own home town paper can’t figure out what to write about. Following our new athletic team through their growing plan is interesting. I want to know how they are doing in training camp. I want to know if SS is going to play point or be a shooting guard. Lets talk about these type of things. Who is this Batista?

By Sekou K. Smith

September 13, 2005 01:44 PM | Link to this

Man, Astro Joe you are pretty rough on me. But I like that. And I’ve got thick enough skin to take a healthy dose of venom. So let me try and answer a few of your questions (assuming they weren’t rhetorical).

1) Esteban Batista is a relatively unproven young talent the Hawks are taking a risk on because they have ample cap space and need bodies to fill out their roster. Rather than filling the locker room with journeymen who have little chance of making you better, the Hawks have decided the R&D (recruit and develop) approach is the proper way to develop this team. If Batista is anything more than a bit player for this team, I’ll be pleasantly surprised. 2) Like most of you and everyone else affiliated with the Hawks, Bernie Mullin’s Friday morning radio stints are must-hear radio for me as well. You never know what he’s going to say and you’re never sure what to make of it. But he’s the CEO and apparently it is his prerogative to speak freely on a number of topics. I’m not in the radio business otherwise, so any other questions about his show or 790 The Zone’s coverage plans should be directed to the powers that be on the broadcast side. 3) The Marvin Williams question is one that’s being raised by several people and maybe I’m just missing it but what more do people want to know about the guy? We were all over him from the moment the Hawks got the No. 2 pick. As you might expect, we’ll be documenting his rookie season in excruciating detail. Like most of his teammates and virtually every other player on an NBA roster, Williams is preparing for the upcoming season with a rigorous training and conditioning regiment that will send him to training camp in top shape. Most players don’t roam around town in the offseason. They tend to want to spend their summer days out of the limelight, working out in far-flung locales or near their offseason homes before returning to the daily spotlight of the season. 4) I don’t think Joe Johnson went to Point Guard School this summer, but he has worked out with some of his new teammates (most recently during a mini-camp in California) and from all reports he was even better than advertised. 5) Delk and Stoudamire are a bit redundant but there have been no takers, as yet, on a trade deal for Delk. 6) The only players eligible to be sent to the NBDL are first and second year players, but I wouldn’t expect Josh Childress, Josh Smith, Marvin Williams or Salim Stoudamire to be riding the D-League bus anytime soon.

Training camp starts in about three weeks, so things with the Hawks will be a lot busier as we get closer to October.

By Samuel

September 13, 2005 02:03 PM | Link to this

Give Cuz a Break,

This is a good post. Training camp doesn’t start until October 4. We’ve disected the Hawks enough. We’ll just have to wait and see now.

As far as the coaches are concerned:

You have to rank Phil #1. He got the most rings. Just because he is not ranting and raving up and down the sidelines doesn’t mean he’s not coaching. Yes it does seem like he always has the top two players on his club but that is partly due to his teaching. Pippen was good but Phil had a lot to with that. Kobe is good and he will tell you Phil got him there.

Poll the top “PLAYERS” and “COACHES” and I guarantee that Phil will be among the top 1 or 2 during this era.

Next I would have to go with Larry Brown due to the fact that he wins wherever he goes.

Pop is also among the top but I need to see him win somewhere other than San Antonio to put him above Larry Brown.

It’s impossible to rank Red A. because it’s a different era, although I do believe he would win in whatever era he coached.

By Jesse

September 13, 2005 03:19 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the info, Sekou. I certainly appreciate hearing what the players are up to, and I personally think the quality of Hawks coverage in the AJC has gone up lately.

By Lloyd Dotson

September 13, 2005 04:00 PM | Link to this

Phil Jackson is nothing more than a glorified motivator. To say that he is a “coach” is a stretch in the use of the word as defined. Simply put, the teams he has had, with the associated talent dictates that he SHOULD have those 9 rings. When Michael went on hiatus, he didn’t win anything. Granted Michael is Michael, but beyond losing him, the cupboard wasn’t exactly bare. Then look at what happened in LA with the four future HOF players. HE LOST!!! Larry Brown and his Pistons outplayed them, and he was and outwitted thoroughly outcoached. Bottom line is this. If Phil is so great, get this Laker team past the second round and I’ll give him some props. If not, TOLD YA SO!

By doc

September 13, 2005 04:32 PM | Link to this

sekou, thanks for the info, im sure we all appreciate the response. jump in whenever you can. i also think the topic was a bit off the wall but like samuel said it still kept us in the game. appreciate your efforts as well. i guess now you know who to go to if your ideas dry up. thanks for he prompt aj.

By Samuel

September 13, 2005 05:00 PM | Link to this

Lloyd,

Just because you are a Phil Jackson “hater” doesn’t mean he not a good coach. Your saying that he is not makes no basketball sense what so ever and it really shows you lack of Basketball knowledge.

When Michael left, who did the Bulls have good enough to get a ring with. Michael made those guys who they were, along with Phil.

Yea, the Lakers may have had 4 or even 5 “FUTURE” Hall of Famers, but they were over the hill. The Pistons had 4 or 5 potential All Stars, “RIGHT NOW”, and more good players off the bench.

It was time for the Laker reign to be over.

The Laker roster “right now” will make the playoffs, but I can’t see them going to the Finals no matter who’s is coaching.

By Khao$

September 13, 2005 05:37 PM | Link to this

Thanks Sekou for dropping those nuggets. I’m glad that the AJC made these blogs, if for no other reason, to show that there are passionate Hawks fans out there. I think that more will surface once the product gets better. Shoot, the attendance went up last year and we lost 13 games. Again, Phil might not be the best, but 9 rings makes it a must to include him with the best of all time.

By andy

September 13, 2005 09:13 PM | Link to this

I think it’s kind of ridiculous to dismiss Jackson’s success. To do so, you have to minimize Auerbach, as well. After Michael and Pippen, who did this team have that will be remembered ten years from now? Paxson, Longley, Armstrong, Cartright, Kerr? Outside of Rodman, who was only there for three of the six, there is not a single significant player of note. The Celtics were loaded with players, over the course of their dominance, who remain in the forefront of basketball fans. Russell, Cousy, Havlicek, Cowens, the Jones brothers. And as someone else already pointed out, Shaq and Kobe did not win until Phil got there. And don’t forget, Karl Malone had a knee injury, and was unavailable, against Detroit. Would have been a different series if the Mailman had been healthy against that front line. I’m a big believer that coaches get too much credit when teams win and too much blame when they lose, but nine rings is nine rings. And Phil got six with two greats and a bunch of role players. How many did Utah win with the Mailman and Stockton? Nobody wins an NBA championship without great talent. But many teams have never won with Hall of Famers. You may not like the Zen Master, but you have to give him his due.

By AaronB

September 14, 2005 07:13 AM | Link to this

BTW thank you for the Hawks info. I am one of those passionate Hawks fans who drool over any news we get. Good stuff man, good stuff. I want to hear more as it becomes available, I don’t have an available radio to listen to. I personally think that Phil Jackson does deserve some credit for making superstars legends. He always seems to have an allstar cast with him, but he does make a difference. We will get a good glance at his abilities this year. He has 2 stars to work with… Odom, and Kobe. 1 is a super star and 1 is not. But if he can make them better I will probably jump on the Phil band wagon. Again don’t misunderstand me, I do think he can bring out the best in allstars, but without that talent I’m not so sure.

By Monte

September 14, 2005 10:15 AM | Link to this

It is amazing the number of readers who have strong and emphatic opinions about sports but obviously have not participated or can not appreciate the impact of caoching. Phil Jackson has to be considered as one of the top NBA coaches period. How can anyone with 9 rings in the modern era be called overrated! Being able to get that kind of results out of today’s athletes demonstrates the ability to coach, teach, and motivate.

One of the main reasons that Phil can do this is because he is respected by today’s players in his field. Sure, he had the talent but he also had the tremendous egos to go with it. Despite all of that, he still managed to win. The Lakers lost to the Pistons not because he was outcoached by Larry Brown but because the Pistons outplayed them and exposed their lack of ability to consistently hit the perimeter jump shot.

Brown and Popavich certainly are the other top NBA coaches but the mere argument that Jackson is overrated is ridiculous!

By Lloyd Dotson

September 14, 2005 11:18 AM | Link to this

Samuel,

I have basketball knowledge. You are obviously lacking basketball knowledge, because to refer to a 31-year old dominant center, a 24 year old top-5 shooting guard a 35-year old point guard, and a 40 year-old (in better shape than most 20 year olds) power forward, who just happened to have scored the second most points in the HISTORY OF THE GAME is both inaccurate and irresponsible. They were outplayed and OUTCOACHED! I have no reason to “hate” Phil Jackson. He just is not all he is hyped up to be. Period.

By Lloyd Dotson

September 14, 2005 11:25 AM | Link to this

Samuel,

Forgive me for my previous blog. I let my flesh get the best of me. I’m a Christian and should not have responded the way I did. You are entitled to your feelings, just as I am my own. Hope you have a happy basketball season!

Lloyd Dotson, Jr.

By Samuel

September 14, 2005 01:19 PM | Link to this

Lloyd,

I aint mad at cha Bro. You are entitled to your argument, however “weak” it is.

I assume you mean Shaq(dominate center) and Kobe (24yr old top 5 SG) and this we agree, but the Mailman stopped delivering years ago and “the glove” don’t fit nomo and hasn’t for some time now.

Lloyd, my Christian Brother, I didn’t mean you actually “HATED” Phil. It’s Hip Hop/Hoops/Ebonic terminology.

Peace

By Monte

September 14, 2005 04:17 PM | Link to this

Lloyd, I respect your opinion and appreciate your apology but I was puzzled by the description you gave of the Lakers stars. Samuel and I agree on your assessment of the Lakers.

Though Shaq is still in his prime (though overweight at the time) and Kobe a superstar in his own right (despite the huge ego), I could not see how you could even mentioned both Malone and Payton as being a factor. Clearly, both of them were passed their prime, despite Malone being injured. Thye were clearly role players on this team who provided an experience aspect.

The numbers do not lie - 9 championships! Look at all of the coaches in all of the sports who have a wealth of talent and don’t get it done. I don’t mean that Phil Jackson just appeased his players and allowed them to play anyway they wanted. He coached them in addition to dealing with all of the other distractions that went with having these superstars (you should know what those things are).

Over the past 15 years, he accounts for 60% ofthe championships. He has made it to the playoffs all of those years and only lost in the championship once. You have to acknowledge these results.

The Yankees dominated baseball from the middle 90’s to the early century. Today, the Yankees have more overall talent than ever and are in jeopardy of making the playoffs. Joe Torre is one of the best managers in baseball.

If you argue against Jackson being one of the best, then obviously coaches such as Red Aurbach, K.C. Jones, and Pat Riley should not even be considered since they had some of the top talent during their tenure.

Coaching plays an important

By Lloyd Dotson

September 14, 2005 04:30 PM | Link to this

Samuel and Monte, my poor misguided brohters! You sound like two very intelligent gentlemen who articulate your arguments very well (are you guys lawyers by any chance???) Anyhow, my feelings on Mr. Jackson is this: Give him a team with LESSER talent, as he obviously has outside of Kobe and Odom this year, and see what he is able to do. I will be very surprised if this team wins 40+ games. If he proves me wrong, then hey I’m man enough to admit such, but until then I still have to stick to my guns.

You know what, we should try to parlay this bantering ours into some type of sports dialogue show and get PAID for what we enjoy watching/talking about. Give me some feedback on both parts.

Peace

By ray

September 14, 2005 05:11 PM | Link to this

Phil Jackson is a very good coach. I don’t think you can compare what he did with the “Shaq and Kobe” Lakers to what he can do with the current Lakers. Besides, the season isn’t even here yet. I do believe that he is one of the best coaches. But I think Jerry Sloan and Gregg Popovich (Larry Brown goes without saying) are too. Sure, Sloan and Popovich have been with the same teams. Does that disqualify them? No. Why? Because in reality, they’ve been with the same FRANCHISE, not the same teams. Remember, players come and go, so from year to year, that really doesn’t qualify as the same TEAM. But maybe I’m wrong and that’s just nitpicking. At any rate, those who are considered the greatest coaches have different talents that make them as such. Jackson has a particular knack for getting hugely talented egos to play together fluidly and efficiently. You can’t take that away from them. Popovich is discipline personified. Ever notice how the Spurs just keep plugging away, unflappable? Okay, so Ginobilli brings a wild streak, but he’s damn good at what he does. Riley was a disciplinarian too, especially on defense. His teams never seemed to run out of gas or let up on D. Brown seems to be able to change players into what he wants them to be (like Billups) and make them more than successful at it. I mean, give him credit, he dealt with Iverson during his roughest days and Iverson has loads of respect for him, regardless of whether they agreed on anything. That’s another thing, Brown always gave Iverson respect….no matter what the situation. All the coaches considered to be among the best have certain elements, talents, or perhaps intangibles that make them the best. And you can’t ignore any of those, whether you like them or not.

By Samuel

September 14, 2005 07:42 PM | Link to this

Lloyd,

No, i’m not a lawyer just a hoops addict that loves to write. Hey, i’m all for that “gettin paid” idea.

Ray, I think Sloan is a good coach but I can’t exactly put him in the Phil, Pop and Larry category.

I agree with your accessment, however, I do feel that you along with many others still don’t quite believe Phil is the complete coach. I hear too much that Phil is good at “getting egos to play together”, “great motivator”, “Zen master”, ect.

I don’t hear much about what a great basketball “teacher” he is.

I’m going to go out on a limb. I believe the Lakers will finish in the 4 teams in the West this year. I also want you guys to watch “Kwame Brown”. I predict he will have a break out season this year and possibly become an All Star in the next 2 or 3 years under Phil.

By Lloyd Dotson

September 15, 2005 09:46 AM | Link to this

Samuel,

First, it’s interesting that you who defend Phil, when referring to him, put the word “teacher” in quotes. Why is that? Do you deep down doubt his “teaching” skills yourself??? Inquiring minds want to know my brother. Secondly, about Kwame. I know MJ dogged him and that a broken psyche can harm the best of us, but an All-Star? You are REALLY going out on a limb. I don’t believe he has the work ethic/heart to do what it takes to make it. He seems like the money has made his comfortable and he’s just merely getting by. Just one man’s observation. For all I know, you could be the Marty Blake we don’t know about and have some insider information about Kwame that will shock the league. We shall see. Peace.

By Jesse

September 15, 2005 10:57 AM | Link to this

No matter how good your team is, winning 9 championships doesn’t happen by accident. Jordan, Shaq, Kobe and Pippen were great players, but at the same time none has ever won a ring without Phil Jackson — and Jordan, Shaq and Pippen all had plenty of chances during the prime of their careers before Phil took them to the promised land.

Also, remember that winning a ring increases the mystique of a player. If Phil had led Garnett to a ring, we’d be hearing about how “Phil’s an OK coach, but he had guys like Jordan, Garnett…” — even though Garnett has only been out of the first round once.

Think back to Jordan’s Pre-Phil days: Back then, Jordan wasn’t seen as the greatest player of all, he was seen as a selfish scorer who would never win a championship.

Shaq wasn’t seen as the most dominant center of all time before Phil started coaching him, either — he was seen as a very good center who would never win a championship because his poor free throw shooting precluded him from being a go-to guy in the fourth quarter.

Who’s to say how Jordan or Shaq would be perceived if Phil hadn’t coached them — perhaps they wouldn’t have won as many rings, and therefore wouldn’t be perceived as “unbeatable forces” that any run-of-the-mill motivator can lead to a championship.

I’ll tell you one thing, though: no one has given more credit to Phil Jackson for their success than Jordan and Shaq…and now Kobe wants Phil back just a year after forcing him out of LA. What does that tell you?

By doc

September 15, 2005 03:37 PM | Link to this

this is an interesting subject after all, do you realize what you are arguing? folks, a coach has to have good players to become a championship winning coach. if that is the argument then that just about disqualifies everyone who has won a championship ring as a coach. i bet if you look back then i would bet the house that EVERY championship team in the history of the game has had the one or two great or three almost great players to make up the nucleus of that team. the problem for the coach is putting it all together to develop a defined program,make decisions on the fly, deal with fatigue, injuries and egos to make it through a season. to argue that someone isnt deserving because of his players is again to argue against every coach who has won it.

now think about it knicks, lakers, rockets, bullets, blazers, 76er’s, spurs, pistons, bulls, celtics. did i miss many over the past 30 years? can you name one team that didnt win without the great player?

now, that you have defined what we can look at we go back to carlyle, rockets coach, sloan, heats coach, mn ex-coach. see i cant even remember their names and they have had good teams with great players and not won it all. how many losers have i left off to add to our list of great coaches then? folks great players dont disqualify great coaches it puts them in the mix, though you cant call it by the numbers accumulated 9 can not be overlooked.

will phil fail this time? maybe, probably but it will not discredit his work that has been completed as i think riley still ranks up there even though he hasnt been successful since LA. oh i forgot he cant be on the list because he coached three great players to win it all.

By ray

September 15, 2005 10:44 PM | Link to this

Samuel, to me getting major ego/talents to play together in such a way that produces winning is a form of teaching. Jackson taught his teams to maximize the talents of both their superstars as well as their role players. Hey, I’m not discrediting Jackson’s basketball knowledge. After all, he had the triangle offense running (assistant Tex Winter’s offense) and that is a complicated offense. Sure Shaq, Kobe, Jordan, etc. all say he was the key to their success. Because he got them to play together effectively. What if Larry Brown or Rick carlisle coached Jordan/Pippen or Shaq/Kobe? Would the results be the same? Maybe, but the methods would be different. Sure, Jackson is a great teacher, but what was he teaching? The fact is, we don’t know his limits. We probably will find some of them out this season. The two teams he won his rings with had some similarities. Now he doesn’t have that kind of team. Or so it appears. So we will probably see just how talented he is. If the Lakers are highly successful, people will say, “see, told ya Phil’s the man.” If they fail to achieve their goals, others will say “see, Phil can’t win without superstars.” As for Phil, either way he’s going to say “see, I’ve got nine rings…and you?” Can’t argue much with that. And it doesn’t matter how you think he got them.

By ray

September 15, 2005 10:50 PM | Link to this

Just to add a little food for thought. If the Lakers fail to produce like the Lakers of the successful Shaq/Kobe era, it doesn’t diminish Phil Jackson’s accomplishments and status. That would be like saying that Larry Brown can’t coach because he only has one ring, couldn’t repeat with the Pistons, and couldn’t win the championship with Philadelphia. Ridiculous, yes? I have to admit, I am interested in what he does in New York. Provided that Isaiah Thomas lets him do his thing. I don’t know about that guy. He was one hell of a point guard, but as an executive….weird. He doesn’t seem nearly as saavy as Joe Dumars. And he has had odd problems with coaches in the past, as well as players. Hope Brown knows what he’s getting into. Then again, if I were Thomas, I’d leave Brown alone. He knows what he’s doing.

By Samuel

September 16, 2005 06:04 AM | Link to this

“Quite Frankly”, if I may borrow the term, I’m tired of defending Phil. He is the greatest coach of our generation, period, end of statement.

If anyone want’s to argue, argue with the “hand” that sports the “bling”.

I’ll give the Lakers two to three years and they will be in the NBA Finals again. “Archive It Sekou”.

As for Isiah, what has he done so bad at New York. He looks like a genius to me. He got his man didn’t he.

May be there was a reason why he wouldn’t “leave the coaches alone”, “THEY COULDN’T COACH”!!!!!!!

By Philip

September 16, 2005 01:06 PM | Link to this

Phil Jackson is definitely overrated. Shaq, Jordan, Pippen, and Horry are the only reason he won any championships.

Personally like Pop and Sloan…and when I’m not cheering for the Hawks I’m supporting the Spurs and Jazz.

Of course we (Hawks’ fans) haven’t had much to cheer about since the trade of Dominique Wilkins.

By Monte

September 16, 2005 01:46 PM | Link to this

Doc, the recent Piston championship team did not have any great players and they won and went back to the championship this past year. They have some very good players who are role players. These players play their role emphatically with a system that is ideal for them and a coach (Larry’s gone know) who knows how to coach.

Historically, in the NBA, most champions have a great player surrounded by role players. On this Pistons team, all of the players are role player, but they play the game ultimately as a team. Also, they emphasize team defense which is extremely important.

Coaching is the key factor in them winning. None of these players could go to another franchise and a team be built around them. Larry B got them to that level like Phil J did for his teams.

By T Robb

September 16, 2005 02:07 PM | Link to this

Quoth Sekou: “The Marvin Williams question is one that’s being raised by several people and maybe I’m just missing it but what more do people want to know about the guy? We were all over him from the moment the Hawks got the No. 2 pick.”

Well, you know, if it were ESPN, they’d have a camera in his living room, we’d go shopping for shoes with him, we’d meet his Mom, we’d see his ride and any fancy toys, and we’d get a graphic outlining the money from his endorsements.

No, wait, never mind.

By doc

September 16, 2005 05:31 PM | Link to this

monte, you have pointed out what i also consider to be one of the few exceptions to the rule. i do think rip and ben may be underrated and rasheed may be close to one of those great players that let himself get in his way, and they would not have won it all two years ago with brown coaching if he hadnt beem gift wrapped by BK. but the bottom line is that is the one team that you can look at and say there is the great player; what did win it as you said was a system and a team approach.

for those detractors of phil, he has done pretty well with his system and MJ and kobe werent able to do it without him. he also won big with the star being a guard then he took his system to win it with a center. give the guy a break and like i said earlier if he doesnt win again it doesnt hurt his portfolio for greatness a bit. he has earned it.

By ray

September 16, 2005 05:38 PM | Link to this

Sam, if it is to be measured in championship rings, then Phil is indeed the most successful right now. I just have a hard time picking between him and Brown. I guess my only argument is based on if you switched the situations for each coach. For example, would Jackson have the same success with the teams Brown had, like Detroit and Philadelphia. And would Brown be able to do what Jackson did in L.A. and Chicago. No way to answer that, really. Do you understand my point of view? I’m not really trying to disparage Phil at all. And though others in this forum may consider it heresy, my other long-time favorite team is Chicago. I was little when Jordan was averaging 37 points a game and couldn’t get to the next level. I’ve lived in Georgia most of my life, though, so I also am a major Hawks fan. I do concede the idea that Sloan is in the top three or four. He has kept the Jazz in the winning column for the most part despite drastic changes to the team, but after re-thinking, he may not be in my top five.

As far as Isaiah, he hasn’t done any particularly bad things in the Big Apple, but he had some rough times in Indiana. That’s what I was referring to. Perhaps it was the way the media portrayed him. I mean, you didn’t hear much about what Dumars was doing in Detroit until they started really winning, particularly once they won a championship. But nearly every personnel move made by Thomas made the press. Of course, the whole thing with Larry Bird helped kick that off. As far as him being a genius, I don’t know about that. New York isn’t in the greatest of shape, even with a bunch of power forwards and explosive guards. And Isaiah got Larry Brown because Brown wanted to be there, make no mistake about that. That man can pretty much go where he wants. Although I don’t like the Knicks, I am a basketball fan and the idea of Brown getting ahold of that team is scary. If they buy into his philosophy, things will be rough in the East. All he needs is time.

By Samuel

September 16, 2005 06:36 PM | Link to this

Ray, It’s all good man. I really enjoy talking to people like yourself that really knows the game. Please don’t be offended by some of my statements.

Actually, to be honest with you I like Larry Brown more than I do Phil. I really admire how he is able to relate to his players. AI is one of my favorite players and the way he admires Coach Brown is real.

I grew up a Laker fan during the “Show Time” era under Pat Riley and when Phil took over I really was not a Big Laker fan. I usually pull for the under dog and with Shaq and Kobe, it really was “Unfair” to the rest of the league.

What I do recognize and love ,however, is talent and pressure defense. If you study the teams Phil coaches, what separates them is their pressure defense. During the Jordan and Pippen era, their defensive pressure separated them. Underrated players like Harper, Grant, Armstrong, and Rodman all were great defenders.

Later during the Laker domination: Horry, Shaw, Grant, Rodman, Harper, George and of course Kobe all were great pressure defenders.

Phil Jackson has a .725 Winning Percentage. (725%) in 14 seasons and .717 in Playoffs. “THATS FREAK’N AMAZING”.

When Jordan left in 1995 he still had a .575 percentage with Pippen, BJ, Ho Grant, and Kukoc.

Larry Brown on the other hand has a .571 career winning percentage, including a .256 in 1989 with the Spurs and in 1998 in Philly he had a .378 record with: AI, D. Coleman, Tim Thomas, Jim Jackson, Theo Ratliff, Eric Snow, AAron Mckie, Jerry Stackhouse, Clarence Witherspoon, Joe Smith. Not exactly a bunch of scrubs.

I don’t think you will ever see Phil go under .500, ever. Ever, Ever……

By doc

September 16, 2005 11:27 PM | Link to this

ray, if you dont mind let me try to answer your question though you may not agree, if brown had been placed in phil’s shoes he never would have done what phil did. for whatever reason, though i know he is a great coach, his attention span would never have allowed him the opportunity to win that many in chicago. to do anything repeatedly in todays world over several years is a difficult accomplishment in itself.

now, what brown did to get rasheed out of the singular mode to a team concept was amazing and maybe the biggest testament to his ability to communicate to get the most out of difficult players. it will be interesting to see how rasheed responds to his next coach. what brown reminds me of is the turnaround ceo that comes in to change the culture of a business not the longterm manager.

samuel,though i think we are headed in the right direction phil would have a heck of a time assuring a .500 season with our hawks. they might blemish his record. i think he will have his hands full this season getting the lakers above 50 wins.

By Samuel

September 17, 2005 09:27 AM | Link to this

Doc, You deal in too many “IFS” AND “WOULDS”, all hypotheticals my friend. Let’s deal with the facts.

I see you also “by in” to that media “BS” about certain players like Rasheed not being “team” players. I guarantee that if you ask his coaches(like Dean Smith and Larry Brown)or his teammates, you would never hear them say anything like that. Rasheed is one of the most respected players in the league. His only problem is that he “Likes to speak his mind” and we all know that sometimes that can get you in trouble. But as a player he’s probably one of the most well rounded “forwards” in the game and hardest workers.

Same thing with AI.

Now with Phil and the Hawks. Again, “IFS”. First of all, eventhough I am a Hawks fan. The organization is “classy” enough,yet, to land a “Big Timer” like Phil.

Doc, just sit back and “watch” the Lakers this year finish in the TOP 4 teams in the West and develop into a championship team over the next 2-3 years. Then yall can come up with some new excuses like: “Phil had Kobe, Odom and Brown.”

By doc

September 17, 2005 12:31 PM | Link to this

yes samuel, phil has the sense to put himself into situations in that he will be successful, so it was hypothetical about the hawks, that is what also makes him so successful; knowing when to hold and when to fold. he pulled out last year as he knew the team was in a shambles. i also said that he would be great if he never won another championship irrespective of what happens this year or many years to come, that he could not have that distinction taken from him, no IF there.

i like rasheed and respect his ability, however, l. brown who you also like, and was in my initial list of great coaches, was able to make him see that if he played within the team concept and didnt get himself thrown out regularly he could help his teammates to the championship. i would have loved to have seen him in a hawk uni for more than one game however, the read was he was a risk to sign up for more therefore, something was gotten for him on the trade market.

finally ai learned that PRACTICE was indeed important from l. brown and again that was learned at the footsteps of brown who was missed sorely when he was gone. ai learned practice probably wasnt as good after he left, but ai had grown up.

go back and reread my notes and see that i have never detracted from phil and my point has been you cant take anything away from him because he was able to lead those difficult egos to the promised land more that anyone except red. that last quote you wrote would not be my refrain brother, you are talking to the choir, my friend. just the same he may be hard pressed to win 50 and if he does i will say “d—- he did it again”!

peace

By doc

September 17, 2005 01:05 PM | Link to this

additionally, samuel i dont see things ever in absolutes or black and white. nothing is ever that clear. i guess it is my medical or spiritual training but i dont mind if others do. i just think there are too many unknowns to go there.

i may get laughed at but in addition to liking and appreciating rasheed, the one guy in sports i am really pulling for is ricky williams, i know he isnt a bball player but it does show i am not on the straight and narrow and willing to be laughed at for my opinions.

now, back to bball. why has george karl remained under everybodies radar screen?

By Samuel

September 17, 2005 02:11 PM | Link to this

Doc,

I hate to make this a Doc,Samuel and Ray show but I guess everyone else “has a life” other than Hoops.

Is it that Phil is smart enough to suuround himself with the best players or is it that the players “want” to play for Phil.

Don’t look now, but all indications are that “THE CHOSEN ONE” is headed to LA LA Land after he becomes a free agent next year. Then we’ll be having this conversation all over again.

KOBE AND LEBRON, SICK!!!!!!

Again, I think you are somewhat off on your assessment of AI and Sheed.

That whole “Practice” thing was blown out of proportion. Did you happen to see AI’s interview on Stephen A. Smith’s show. There is no way he could have become the player he is without practicing hard. Don’t forget he played under another man who was a pretty good coach, John Thompson.

As for Rasheed, I guess you don’t remember his days at Portland, huh. Sure he got tossed a few times but he also lead an average team to within two to three minutes away from defeating one of the Greatest Teams of all Time in the Lakers.

If you don’t play a team game, you don’t play for Dean Smith. He had a pretty good career there.

The Hawks again showed why they like “the view from below”. If they expect to have a team full of “choir boys” in the NBA they will always be seller dwellers.

By doc

September 17, 2005 02:41 PM | Link to this

samuel, i see its about leadership, you have to be at practice and stay in the game to exert it. that is what they might have learned from brown, it was important enough of a problem that AI was suspended for not doing PRACTICE and that is where the comment came from as he tried to downplay his offense to the TEAM, you can practice over in your own world or you can PRACTICE with a team and that is what LARRY BROWN insisted on.

as far as rasheed if you look, the number of techs and thrown outs went down with LARRY BROWN as the coach. both are wonderful talents that became PLAYERS with LARRY BROWN. if you go back to a comment earlier i made to monte is that rasheed may be the great player on the pistons that will be remembered best about that team.

now, one year with thompson probably doesnt quite qualify as an impact on the boy which AI was then. if he had stayed four you he would have known the meaning of PRACTICE or the feel of the bench under his …..

this transformation is also what happened with MICHAEL, SHAQ and KOBE when they came under the spell of a great coach, PHIL JACKSON. they became more than talents but meshed into a system to become GREAT PLAYERS.

now, i know your lakers are going to strut again. okay, i said it in the black and white with no if or woulds. satisfied?

love the repartee’ sport. have a good afternoon of watching college fball while you wait for NBA action. if you’er bored with this you can always go and talk to the matthew guy at the bdog blog. he is revvvved up baby.

By ray

September 17, 2005 11:54 PM | Link to this

Man, this blog should have been named “Is Phil Jackson the greatest coach or what?” All I have to say now is let’s see how the Lakers do this year. Want to be Lamar Odom is the hidden key to it all? Okay, now I’m just stirring the pot…heh heh heh. But seriously, I’ll be keeping an eye on them, in between Hawks and Bulls games, that is. Doc, Sam, you guys are full throttle, I decided not to even try to wedge a word in. grin

By doc

September 18, 2005 07:45 AM | Link to this

ray. love ya man, stay cool. andy sick or sick of this blog?

now when does camp open? when dp\o preseason games begin? do you remember how bad the hawks were last year in the preseason, opening game? whew serious flashback there, better go to church.

By Andy

September 18, 2005 01:33 PM | Link to this

Fellas!

Hate to admit it, but I’ve been taking care of business and went to see my Dawgs listless performance in Athens yesterday. You guys have written so much, where to begin?

Quick points: Rasheed Wallace definitely gets a bad rap. Great talent who’s most comfortable blending in with his teammates on the court and speaking his mind on sensitive issues like race off of it. But outside of Nowitzki, he probably has the best 3-point stroke of any true big. He’s maddening if you like to play fantasy basketball, because you know he could put up monster numbers if they meant anything to him. He would have never stayed here, but if he had, this franchise would have rebuilt much quicker (course we got Josh Smith with the pick for Sheed I think, so I guess it’s a good thing).

I agree with Doc that Larry would have never stayed put in one place to get six rings in Chicago, so from that point he could never match Phil for volume of rings. It will be fascinating to see what Brown does with the enigmatic Stephon Marbury. Brown’s reputation for teaching/forcing (depends on who’s telling the stories) point guards to play a certain way is legendary. Brown drives his players nuts, but all of them give him due credit for making them play the game better. Would be wild if he moves Starbury to the two and has Jamal Crawford take primary ballhandling duties. Both have point guard skills and quick shooting triggers. Isiah reportedly wanted A. Walker. Combine him with Crawford and Starbury, and there’s not a coach on the planet that could make that a championship team.

No way LeBron goes to LA. If you put your ear close the the NBA tracks, you’ll regularly hear that other players hate to play with Kobe because he dominates the ball. There’s just not enough room on the court for those two to play together. They both want and need the ball in their hands (though Bron actually looks to make his teammates better). If Bron ends up looking to move to a big market, it’s likely New York. But he is an Ohio guy, and he now has an owner with deep pockets, so I think the idea of establishing a dynasty in his home state and bringing some championships to Cleveland is an enticing challenge. He just seems too grounded to go all LA on everybody.

George Karl: what he did with a lifeless Denver team, over the final third of the season, was nothing short of genius. Carmelo was well on his way to becoming a stat sheet filler with no sense of what it takes to win or optimize his talent. If Marcus Camby stays healthy all season, they’re top four in the West, record-wise. Karl has mellowed with age, and no his one weakness as a coach, his ego, is no longer in his way. I honestly believe that Karl is every bit as talented a coach as Larry Brown. And the rumors of Andre Miller and Nene for Paul Pierce make some sense. Why would Denver sign Earl Watson when they have Miller and Boyton unless they were looking to move one of them? If Boston is fed up with Pierce and he needs a fresh start, this would be an intriguing trade for both teams. Nene just needs minutes to produce and he’s not going to get as many as he wants behind Camby. In Boston, playing down low next to the emerging Al Jefferson, Boston could develop as a player in the East. Pierce is great, but they’ll never challenge Miami with Shaq unless they get some big bodies. No one will. In the east, you must retool your roster to have 12 effective fouls at the ready, in the post, for the Diesel, or you will not be able to compete. The only hope for any team in the East is that Riley messed up getting JWill and Walker and that they end up taking touches away from Shaq and Wade. ‘Cause if Wade doesn’t hurt his ribcage in the playoffs, I’m not convinced they wouldn’t have won the title last season.

Geesh, that was a lot of catching up. Hopefully, there’s some fresh stuff for you fellas to take issue with. Wonder what Sekou has in store for us this week after taking some grief for this last blog subject (which didn’t seem to stop us from going on and on and on).

By Samuel

September 18, 2005 03:56 PM | Link to this

Welcome back Andy. Your Dawgs didn’t look so good,huh. My Dawgs(Miss State),”SUCK”. Actually, I only watch football until Hoops start. I do like High School Football though.

From what I saw yesterday, all the college teams are playing for(who will get the chance to get “scrubbed” by SC), Trojans that is.

I’m not so sure you’re right about LeBron and Kobe. I believe that this whole Colorado fiasco and the Shaq divorce will humble Kobe. I believe he has something to prove and knows now that he needs help to do it. I also believe that Lebron knows that outside of going to Miami or San Antonio, he won’t get a ring in the next few years, other than in La with Phil and Kobe.

We’ll just have to wait and see. I do believe he will leave Cleveland though. I don’t believe that salary will have as much an impact as endorcement/marketing potential and the two best coaches alive in Phil and Larry. Either New York or LA.

I’m really a Shaq man myself. I believe that they upgraded with the off season moves. I don’t believe that JWill or Tone will take any touches away from “Big Daddy”(if they got any sense), I do believe that they will add depth to the Heat and put them over the top this year.

George Karl is a pretty good coach. Denver was definately underachievers before he arrived. I’ll put Karl in the second tier of coaches in the league.

I am also a big Boston fan now. I never really liked them until they got Al Jefferson. My son played 4 years of AAU ball with him in Jackson. I believe he will be one of the next great offensive power fowards in the game. He needs to work on defensive footwork but he’s got all the tools.

I have never been a Paul Pierce fan. He takes too many bad shots at crunch time for me and he plays “matador” Defense. If Boston can pull off that trade, it would be good for them.

By ray

September 19, 2005 10:01 PM | Link to this

Kobe turning over a new leaf? Not over-night. It’s possible, but I think it will be a arduous task. What he needs is to learn how to be a true leader, not purely a scoring leader. He could have one powerful ally and teammate in Odom. As far as Miami, man….I’m just not feelin’ that A.Walker move. Sure, he provides scoring, but do you want him in your starting lineup or off the bench. He probably won’t be happy off the bench, but who knows. His defense is less than stellar and he thrives in the “gimme the ball and I’ll chuck it up” game. I’m not saying the guy can’t play, I just don’t know how he’ll fit. JWill takes ball-handling pressure off of Wade, so that might be a good fit. Although Hubie Brown managed to calm him down for the most part, he’s still not completely predictable and might have a hard time finding his niche with this team. Although he probably won’t miss Mike Fratello….those two come from completely different schools. Miami still will be one of the teams to beat, maybe THE team to beat.

By Samuel

September 20, 2005 08:12 PM | Link to this

To be honest with you. I’m tired of the talk but I can’t stop. Man, i’ll be glad when season starts.

Again, on Kobe I say, just watch. I believe he can be a leader and will be. You would be surprised what adversity can do to a man.

If you noticed last season. As bad as the season ended up being for the Lakers, they looked pretty good against good teams. They were just severly outmanned in terms of numbers. If you consider what Kobe had to endure with all the travel and mental pressure relating to the trial and he still played at the higest level. Imagine what he will do this year.

This year they have added:1)”Arguably” the best coach ever 2) a healthy Devin George, 3) Kwame Brown 4)a solid veteran defender in Aaron Mckie 5) I think one of the sleepers in the draft in Andrew Bynum 6) and a pretty fair group of assistant coaches including Kareem, Kurt Rambis and Brian Shaw.

All this to go along with a Lamar Odom that have his first “real” coach in his career.

But some how, I don’t think they are finished making moves. After all, we all know that Phil only works with the “best” or he don’t work at all.

As for Miami. Don’t worry about Antone Walker. He’ll be fine. Whether he starts or comes off the bench, he can only make the Heat better. He knows that he’ll be the third option when Shaq and Dwade are on the floor or he’ll be “ride’n the pine”. All anyone has to do is be able to hit a wide open jumper when Shaq is on the floor and Tone and Jwill can both shoot the rock. These guys want a ring and they know that they have “died and gone to heaven” being with Shaq and DWade in South Beach. They wouldn’t dare mess it up.

Trust me the Heat are the team to beat in the east.

By ray

September 21, 2005 06:07 PM | Link to this

Yeah, Shaq doesn’t have forever to win a championship(s) in Miami, so he won’t brook any nonsense from Jason or Antoine. One thing’s for certain, unless everyone who can shoot is injured, they won’t have to worry about scoring. Even if Wade’s out for some reason. Now that I think about it, imagine this: you’re the opposing pg or sg and after chasing the fleet-footed Williams around the court, they switch up and now you have to deal with the quickness and strength of Wade. SCARRRRRY. As for LA, success will likely mean Kobe is his normal killer self, Odom has become his Pippen, Bill Walton’s kid gets some decent burn and makes plays, and Bynum really listens to Kareem. Devean is a good role piece, as are many others I didn’t mention. And yes, this will mean that Jackson is once again making the machine work. I do look forward to seeing how they do. Hopefully they will enjoy themselves above all else. No matter how much of a business it really is, if it ain’t fun, it won’t go well for long.

By Samuel

September 22, 2005 09:33 PM | Link to this

Yea,

Looks like the rich got a little richer as The Heat just signed the “glove”. Eventhough Payton has lost a step or two he still is good for 15-20 minutes and will keep “White Chocolate” on his toes or lose the starting job.

Also, don’t look now but Phil and the boys are close mounting some “Sprees” as Latrell Spreewell is close to becomming the latest member of the Lakers. Spreewell has always been a tenacious defender and competitive attitude. Interesting.

Wouldn’t it be something if Kobe actually moved full time to the point. Now there’s a man how could pull that off. He also would have a good teacher in “The Magic Man”.

By ray

September 24, 2005 12:18 AM | Link to this

True that. But you never can tell what the best formula is there. Jordan did it, more or less. At one point he was even categorized as a PG. I think Kobe would be better as a “fluid guard.” Playing off the ball when needed and running the point as needed. My guess is he would be playing off the ball more, but then again, if he ran point, he could post up a lot of PGs. Odom has a good enough handle to be point-forward too, so this could really be used to confuse a defense. As for Spree, he’d be a good addition. He could give you some intense minutes off the bench. I can’t believe Miami got Payton, but the trend now for former big time Stars is to suck it up and go with whoever they think will win the championship. Finley chose the current champs. We’ll have to see how this goes.