Capitol Ideas

By ChrisD

February 1, 2006 08:38 AM | Link to this

I’m for any policy that helps students on an economic basis as opposed to racial. If there is any discrimination in this country it is against the poor; there is relatively little racism these days. A student of any color who achieves while a product of poverty is worth more than a rich student with the same achievement. Let’s face it: Michael Jordan’s kids don’t need affirmative action.

By Cindy

February 1, 2006 08:57 AM | Link to this

With all the billions of dollars going into Iraq, much to line the pockets of the already wealthy, I don’t see how anyone could complain about educating our own citizens. It could only improve this country.

By Jesse

February 1, 2006 09:05 AM | Link to this

As a University of Texas grad, I’ll vouch for what a disaster this plan has become in Texas. UT now has ballooning class sizes and more 5 & 6 year students than ever before, not to mention steadily increasing drop out rates. Problems I believe UGA already struggles with. A lot of these automatic entries kids aren’t really prepared for major college life. Worse, what this plan really does is punish private school kids in small schools where classes aren’t ranked. A lot of Texan parents are now pulling their kids from private schools their junior year and placing them in public schools just so they can get admitted to college!

By CD

February 1, 2006 09:07 AM | Link to this

BAD IDEA!!!! Here’s why:

The top 10% of a really bad school may, in fact, be in THAT school’s top 10%, but may fall in the absolute bottom of students when ranked overall.

Take for example Washington High School (Atlanta.) They have had an enormous amount of ‘Honors Students’ and ‘HOPE recipients’ these last few years. However, MOST of these students are required by the universities they now attend (for free) to take Developmental Studies classes upon entry to get them to where they should be, educationally speaking, when entering the college. Additionally, Washington’s average SAT is 90+ points below the state average which is the lowest in the nation.

Well which is it? Are they Honors Students or Developmental Studies Students? How can you be an honor grad when your SAT score is 90+ points below the lowest score in the nation?

The reality is that 10% of bad is still bad. An ‘honors student’ from Washington would get smoked if compared to honors students coming out of, for example, the top Gwinnett or Cobb county schools (i.e. Brookwood or Walton.)

With this proposal, however, a Washington student who is at 10% would get to go to college for free when a Pope student ranked 11% would not… EVEN THOUGH the Pope students STANDARDIZED test scores would be (on average) 300 points higher.

Why reward lower performing students for sub-par skills?!?!?!

A top 10% merit system only works if there is a STANDARD by which all students are measured. This eliminates the subjectivity of grade point inflation (the reason Washington has all these ‘honors’ grads.) and focuses on finding the true 10% of students in the state.

It is also color blind. And for those who would contend that race is a dominating factor on success, I can only suggest that you ignore such self-destructive rhetoric and begin setting a higher standard for your [fill in minority group here] children.

By Mike

February 1, 2006 09:09 AM | Link to this

I do not support the bill. It absolutely negates the other 50% of the equation: SAT. While the SAT is not necessarily an accurate predictor of success, it is the one standardized measure of aptitude that levels the playing field for all. Achieving a top 10% class rank at a rural or a less than competitive urban school is no great achievement. Indeed, many of these same rural or less competitive urban schools historically send a very small percentage of its graduates to college. In other words, the competition is not great. I would support a bill that still weighs in the SAT, perhaps to a lesser degree. Or, rather, gives additional points for achieving a top 10% class rank. To summarily grant automatic admission for top 10% is a big mistake and will in the long run undermine the tremendous progress the state has achieved in increasing the caliber of the top state colleges like Tech and UGA to national prominence.

By Melissa

February 1, 2006 09:13 AM | Link to this

this is a bad idea. not every school’s top 10% is the same, nor is every class within a school the same. this law will encourage students to take lesser classes to ensure the grades to get automatic admission. It makes no sense. The HOPE grant has already dumbed down college, this will only make it worse. College admission requires hard work and preparedness. It’s SUPPOSED to be competitive. UGA and Tech have tough admission standards. This should not be sacrificed. College will become no more than a continuation of high school.

By Scott

February 1, 2006 09:32 AM | Link to this

Not a good idea at all. What is the benefit of trying to take advanced courses then? There is too much risk. Say you take advanced courses and get “B“‘s in them. Well, someone else takes non advanced courses and get the same, or better grades. Does that mean the person who took the non advanced classes is smarter, or should deserve to go to college instead of the AP person? You would be better off taking 4 years of wood shop instead of trying to actually take a real class…

By Ward

February 1, 2006 09:39 AM | Link to this

I think a better avenue is to be sure that these students get a free pass in the registration process (ie, no registration fee, notify the schools swho they are, and then let the market take over from there. Once they have the info, let schools start the recruiting process and see if they would even qualify for the school.

Do we want to send a kid to Ga Tech that never took any math or science except the minimum state required courses? You can have all A’s and never take any of the course work that would have your remotely ready for a college environment.

By Jay

February 1, 2006 10:09 AM | Link to this

I think I would oppose the bill. I worry that it would negate significant strides UGA has made in the last few years toward becoming one the top-rated public universities in the nation, trying to reach the status attained by UNC-Chapel Hill, Univ. of Fla., and Univ. of Va. Just because someone graduates in the top 10 percent of a class is not indicative of whether they will succeed in college. If they have what it takes, they will be able to gain admission without the help of a new law.

By Tyler

February 1, 2006 10:14 AM | Link to this

This bill is making me furious! A student that is in the top 20% at Walton, our states highest achieving school, would be denied while a student from an underperforming school that does not have the SAT or GPA comparable to the average incoming freshman at UGA would gain admittance. UGA is doing nothing but harping on increasing our academic rigor but watering down our freshman class, which this bill will certainly achieve, is taking a huge step backwards. Admittance into any fine University in this state should be settled only on GPA, SAT, and course difficulty. That is the only way to ensure a fair admissions process.

By By Jesse

February 1, 2006 10:30 AM | Link to this

The Georgia Legislature would be foolish to pass this proposal. Offering a free ride to any student that graduates in the top 10 percent of their class might not be a bad idea if all of Georgia’s high schools achieved academically, but we know this is not the case. What about the bright out-of-state students so highly sought after? Would the University of Georgia or Georgia Tech be forced to cut back on the number of students they accept from another state even if that student has a 3.75 gpa and a 2200 on the SAT, because there is not enough room for them on campus?

By Sarah

February 1, 2006 10:45 AM | Link to this

Parts of this Bill could stink to the high heavens. I agree with earlier postings, this could potentially cause students to cruise through school on auto-pilot and take only the courses that are required for them to take, not advanced classes geared for students with college on their minds and as part of their educational agenda. Also, schools are not educationally equal. What qualifies as an honor student in some school may not break the top twenty per cent in some of the more higher achieving high schools. This sounds typical of Democrats. However, I was about to be impressd that race is not part of the equation….but as I look at this, it is becoming more evident that this is more for urban than rural.

By Playfair

February 1, 2006 10:56 AM | Link to this

This is an excellent idea that will correctly award our best and brightest throughout the state, pretty fairly. This also gives students who attend a “bad” school but get good grades an opportunity at a college education. Everyone cannot live in the best school districts and this helps out people in other parts of the state.

The SAT scores are important but do not give a fair prediction on who will succeed and who will not. It also does not give insight to an individual’s intelligence, just their education experience. So most schools in lower inconme or rural areas always score lower.

everyone who graduated before received a class ranking and no one ever said “your classes were easier than mine I should get a higher rank.” Isn’t being intelligent it’s own reward?

New York City has a similiar guarantee for years that went something like, if you graduated high school you were promised a seat in a City college. The state has regent’s exams which ensure students take a minimum of 4 years of English, 3 1/2 of history and 3 years of math, science and foreign language. Depending on your grades determined which college would take you. The better your grades, the more likely you were to get your first choice. The students with lower grades usually had to attend a 2 year school and bring up their grades before they could be accepted into a 4 year college.

There is a lot more to Georgia than the northern Atlanta suburbs people!!

By Mike

February 1, 2006 11:07 AM | Link to this

I see a thinly disguised way to make sure minority students from inner city under-performing schools can make sure they get into college over students with higher test grades, GPA’s, as well SAT scores. This will be the Democratic alternative to affirmative action, a practice that recent polls show most Amercians are overwhelming opposed to now. Playfair, the SAT is a reflection of the intelligence of a student.

By quint

February 1, 2006 11:23 AM | Link to this

Good proposal, but it needs some tweaking. Of course all of the normal requirements for UGA or Tech would have to be satisfied. (Minimum SAT or ACT scores, G.P.A., College Prep diploma, etc.) You wouldn’t get in without taking the fourth math and fourth science classes that are now required for admission to research universities. Until the bill is actually written for us all to see we are just jumping to conclusions as to the ramifications. Few people with 4 years of woodshop would have had the time to fulfill those requirements to enter as a freshman.

Mark my words, many people are going to jump on this proposal with both feet and try to stamp it out. They will see voter pandering in an election year. They will imagine straw men lurking in the shadows, ready to dilute the braintrust of Georgia universities. Why not wait until we know the specifics of the bill before we begin debating it based on its faults or merits?

By Vermin8

February 1, 2006 11:25 AM | Link to this

Can someone tell me what the admissions requirements are for, say, Ga Tech (I’m an engineer so I will use Ga Tech for comparison)? At first this bill didn’t seem bad but on second thought if a student is in the top 10% of their class but wouldn’t get into a state school otherwise that there is a problem that should be fixed before admission is granted.

You could potentially have students admitted into a top college like Ga Tech who don’t have the right prerequisites. This is a BAD idea.

I’m not a GA Tech grad but I have not worked with one who wasn’t extremely smart and capable. Don’t throw that out the window, GA.

By buck

February 1, 2006 11:37 AM | Link to this

Bad idea. UGA and GA tech have tough admissions standards, and that is a good thing. there are plenty of other schools in state for those who don’t gain admission to the research universities.

BTW, univ of fl is not in the same category as uva and unc.

By Bill H.

February 1, 2006 11:47 AM | Link to this

Bad Idea. All high schools are not created equal. The valedicorian at one school may not be in the top 10% at another. Sorry, but that why people pay more for a house in Fayette county than they would in many other areas.

By Bill H.

February 1, 2006 11:50 AM | Link to this

sorry, “that is”

By jim dumond

February 1, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

To be quite blunt, this a load of crap!

After footing the bill for a college education will we then demand they remain in Georgia? I don’t think so. The kids in the top 10% will surely follow the money to other states and nations. What will Georgia taxpayers gain be in this?

By Stefanie

February 1, 2006 12:04 PM | Link to this

It’s a nice idea in theory, but would only work if the high school seniors turned out by all the different Georgia High schools were of equal education, which we all know is not the case.

This is going to punish good students at tough schools, and reward students at crappy schools. You will have kids transfering to poor schools their senior year, just to get in the top 10%, which is not a good thing. How is this a benefit to Georgia Education?

The SAT and ACT are good tests that show how ready your child is for college, percentages are crap, as are most statistics.

If your kid can’t get a high enough SAT score to get into UGA or GT, your kid doesn’t deserve to go, end of story.

By Marion

February 1, 2006 12:05 PM | Link to this

I agree with earlier posts….students in the top 10% of one high school may not be college material and may not be as bright as students in the top 15-20% of another academically superior school. This concept needs to be carefully amended by using several alternatives if the idea is to allow more Georgia students to get into Georgia colleges and universities. Maybe the 10% of a high school who have taken a minimum number of years of math and science and who make a minimum score on the ACT or SAT (but the score is lower than the current admission criteria at each university). Another alternative would be to exempt certain universities from this offer (Ga. Tech and UGA for example).

Another alternative would be to decrease admissions of out-of-state students and especially foreign students to universities in Georgia. Parents who have lived in Georgia all of their lives and paid taxes to support our colleges and universities should have an opportunity for their children to attend a Georgia college. To be told that their child won’t be admitted or allowed to attend a college in Georgia because his or her SAT was a few points too low or that his or her GPA was a fraction of a point too low, but that a kid from India, Japan, China, Iran, Iraq or any other foreign country WILL be admitted is the real crime here. Colleges in Georgia should have a mandate to serve Georgia students FIRST even if it means lowering the admission criteria some. Then any foreign students can be admitted to any unfilled slots. Foreign students who have lived abroad all of their lives have not paid ONE CENT of taxes to the state of Georgia and do not deserve admission over a Georgia student. This would assure that our colleges serve our state’s students FIRST as they should!!!

By Vermin8

February 1, 2006 12:21 PM | Link to this

In VA 20 years ago, out of state student minimum standards were significantly higher than in state minimum standards, so you wouldn’t see an out of state or foreign student admitted who was only marginally better than an in state applicant who was turned down. I wish AJC had specified the admissions standards and why some of the top 10% are not getting in now. The article doesn’t really say much and it’s hard to make a judgement.

By OldSchool

February 1, 2006 12:29 PM | Link to this

Could this be contingent on achieving a set score on CLEP or placement tests for the classes the potential student registers for at the university/college? My daughters were good high school students but not honor grads and both did very well on college placement tests…unlike some of their top 10% friends who were placed in remedial courses based on those same placement tests.

By Zoe

February 1, 2006 12:39 PM | Link to this

re: “Merry Christmas” I think someone talked about the top 10% rule on the education blog or made a reference to it as it applies in Texas a month or two ago. I tried to find the article online and couldn’t find it. If you posted it, please post again. In Texas, competition for the top 10% has grown so strong, students are are leaving private schools and enrolling in the local high schools that they previously wrinkled their noses at. Also, I just looked at the rules though and apparently students with 1300 (old SAT) are automatically granted admission also. I think it is a roundabout way to try and increase the number rural and minority students at the flagship universities. What lawmakers need to remember is that getting the students in is half the battle. If the students can’t do the work because they’ve never been challenged in high school, the 10% rule is a waste.

By Nel

February 1, 2006 12:42 PM | Link to this

I don’t think you can eliminate certain schools. It is self-policed bacause of the admissions criteria and that most likely won’t change. Also, you can’t say don’t admit the best and brightest foreign students from attending, that presupposes that they all get a free ride, which is not the case. Because top US colleges are well respected outside of the US, foreigners push their children to come here which is a great benefit to the universities they attend.

By BlindHomer

February 1, 2006 12:50 PM | Link to this

Wouldn’t the Washington High student wind up at Savannah State while the Brookwood kid got into Tech? Isn’t this sort of the way the Hope works now? 3.00 and above qualify but higher SAT’s go to Tech and UGA leaving the lower SAT’s to Valdosta and Savannah State. BTW, those Brookwood kids are losing the Hope and flunking out at UGA and Tech too.

By SM

February 1, 2006 12:55 PM | Link to this

Just so you know. This bill, while pushed by democrats here, was the brainchild of the Bush boys. This is the law in both forida and texas.

By barbara

February 1, 2006 01:00 PM | Link to this

At first glance, it sounds good, but when you think about it, it is a very bad idea and typical of the “bandaid” short-sighted approach that politicians will take to solve a problem. The REAL problem is that our high schools in urban and rural Georgia are terrible for various reasons. Rather than try to dump this problem in the laps of our state universities and in the process lower their admission standards, we should be trying to think of ways to improve the level of education in these high schools! So, politicians, back to the blackboard and try again!

By Scott

February 1, 2006 02:18 PM | Link to this

Simple solution, stop awarding the Hope scholarship to some transplant who just moved here their senior year. Native Georgians should come first and only then should these Transplants be given consideration!!

By Playfair

February 1, 2006 02:59 PM | Link to this

Mike, everything is not racial and this is not a form or affirmative action. (whom by the way benefited women much more than ANY minotity group.) Also, affirmative action programs do not go to students who have lower performance, they ensure that a certain amount of seats are given to minority and female students. It is to ensure diversity and “equal” opportunity.

It is to make sure that the rural students who earn good grades get a chance at a college education as well. Everyone is not fortunate to live near the “best” performing schools in the state. Why should a student who lives somewhere else be denied a college education? Lets be frank, rural Georgia does not get the financial support that metro Atlanta gets. That does not mean that they don’t try just as hard to acheive academic excellence. I think a hard working student in Valdosta should be given a fair shot as opposed a spoiled student in East Cobb who gets by only because he attends a better school.

It has been proven over and over again that SAT’s and ACT’s are biased. That is not disputable. next, the standards for emission would not be lowered to allow anyone in who cannot perform. It would open up opportunities, not take any away.

By Marie

February 1, 2006 03:05 PM | Link to this

A better idea would be if the State of GA dismantled the current public education system in lieu of a voucher system in which PARENTS made the choice to send their kids to the school of their choice. Open up a REAL competitive school environment so all of our children (urban, rural, and suburban) could thrive and reach their highest potential.

I’ve read so many comments about children from urban and rural areas who attend underperfoming schools who would possibly benefit from this plan if they graduate within the upper 10% of their class; while children from more affluent school districts would be punished because they fall below the magical 10% of their respective schools.

Somehow it never worries these respondents that some of these students who attend Booker T. Washington High or other urban schools are doing the best they can given their circumstances.

NOONE can say whether these students could not perform as well or even outperform their peers in suburbia if given the same resources and/or environment. Because that’s not what we currently have in this state or the country as a whole.

NO student should be FORCED to attend a bad school by nature of their birth. Instead the State of Georgia and the USA in general should adopt the educational value of their European counterparts and let the dollars follow the child instead of keep wasting money on the monoply that has become public education.

By so doing we will open up a competitive environment for ALL students. Instead the State of GA (too timid of the powerful NEA) wants to adopt a compensation plan for urban and rural students. We won’t lift a finger to get you out of these underperforming schools, but, we’ll try to make sure you get a seat in a public college or university.

By Bryan

February 1, 2006 03:10 PM | Link to this

Bad idea. I saw a segment on Dateline about this a few years ago. A girl from one of the best Texas high schools was the top 12% of her class and did excellent on all of her classes and SATs. She ended up on a waiting list at her school of choice because of all the 10%ers and ended up going to a different school, even though she dreamed of going to the one she was on the waiting list for since she was in middle school. A girl from a very poor county was 10% and was guarenteed admission into UT, she couldn’t hack it and failed out. Not all schools are created equal.

It punishes kids from better schools who do well, but not 10% well, they aren’t guareenteed spots and what if all those spots are eaten up? Some brighter students may go out of state if they can’t get into a school in state. It also punishes those who come from weaker schools, as they may not be able to handle the work and may not have the classes to know what is expected of them.

I graduated from Roswell High in the top 35% of my class, and one can assume that means more than some weaker schools. Yet someone from a school which is much lower can finish iin the top 10% of their school and go to a great school based only on that?

By tl

February 1, 2006 03:17 PM | Link to this

I imagine this would create a new practice, where students could shop for schools with low average test scores, to ensure their placement in the top 10. A bit of work but when you’re talking about a paid scholarship…

By Adenise

February 1, 2006 03:24 PM | Link to this

I think this will be a great idea..If this bill passes, who cares who goes where. As long as students get their education. That should be the main concern for everyone. Let’s here from highschool students and what they think-FORGET EVERYONE ELSE!!!

By Marge

February 1, 2006 03:31 PM | Link to this

I think this is a great idea. Thanks for thinking of it, whoever you are.

By Barney Strickland

February 1, 2006 04:22 PM | Link to this

Bad Idea !! Anyone who attended UGA knows that the students from rural high schools did not have the skills necessary to succeed at the university level. They just takes seats away from more deserving (academically qualified) students. The hoax (hope) scholarship debacle should have taught us the term “grade inflation”. Nobody gets below a “B” in Georgia schools any longer. this program is just the same kind of bad policy suggestion. Here’s my idea : One statewide standardized “Regents” type of merit exam………. One score - an even playing field. Let the strong flourish and the weak can go to the wall !!

By BlindHomer

February 1, 2006 04:37 PM | Link to this

Playfair - Affirmative action assures unequal opportunity by definition. The article also pointed out that these programs in Texas and Florida did not really represent an alternative form of affirmative action as whites and Asians domianted the top 10% statewide. I think that only the “school of their choice” part needs rethinking. I don’t think UGA and Tech could accomodate all of the top 10%, although many would probably prefer to go elsewhere anyway. The best students should get in the best schools, and the SAT is a better measure than class standing.

By william

February 1, 2006 04:57 PM | Link to this

Just curious: How will this affect children who were home schooled? Seems to me that a home schooled child always graduates in the top 10% of their class. But then, they graduate in the bottom 10% simultaneously. Since I was simultanesouly the valedictorian, AND worst member of my class of one, would I or would I not receive a scholarship? Perhaps it would be advantageous then for me to home school my child her Senior year to ensure that she graduates on top.

The mind boggles, the forehead knits…

By Earl Usry

February 2, 2006 09:41 AM | Link to this

THe idea has merit.

By Maria. A. G.

February 2, 2006 10:15 AM | Link to this

Top performers are deserving, however

I feel that every US citizen should be able to go to college for free. For example in the UK the state ran college is free to every citizen. The US needs to take a hard look at itself and look towards its future. How are we as a country going to be able to compete if we are not spending the money on our future leaders as well as teaching a trade to all our citizens? Also the importance of the teachers having good salaries as well as the proper supplies needed for their classrooms. Our teachers should not have to spend their own money for supplies that are needed in their classrooms.

· The US is so far behind in education and technology compared to other countries. We are doing something wrong when even the brightest students study oversees and they go from being a straight A student to barely making a C and the students consider them as being stupid because of their knowledge of English, mathematics, etc.… . Several months ago I saw an interesting course being offered in the metro Atlanta area. The course was free if I was a Non-US citizen, but because I was a US citizen I would have to pay four thousand dollars for the course. The US/Georgia should not be funding free education to Non-US citizens.

By Richard

February 6, 2006 12:53 PM | Link to this

Back in 2003, the AJC ran a story about Schley County, discussing the same issue - the perception that UGA is becoming a school for the Metro Counties. One of the points made in the article was that the top 2 students in every high school are already granted admission to UGA. This was only 2 years ago, so I assume that the program is still around.

If this program is still in place, this proposal seems to be just another instance of some law makers trying to grab a headline without researching whether or not a new law is the way to solve a problem.

By F.G.

February 7, 2006 11:02 AM | Link to this

@ Marion: Please note that foreign students pay 4 times more than in-state students, so to say that they do not deserve admission into state schools because they have not paid taxes is highly unfair. Plus there are strict academic requirements for foreign students too.

By truefreedom

February 7, 2006 01:26 PM | Link to this

Higher education is not the way. Politics is not the way. Economics is not the way. Jesus Christ is the way.