Get Schooled

By Molly

January 12, 2009 9:00 AM | Link to this

I would like to see Georgia law change to remove the age requirement for entry into kindergarten and first grade. Well-documented research shows that early entry into kindergarten or first grade is one of the most effective, simplest and cheapest interventions available to meet the needs of gifted students, yet current Georgia law makes this practice impossible in the public school system.

By Ernest

January 12, 2009 9:47 AM | Link to this

I hope they do not revisit the GREAT plan that was proposed by Speaker Richardson last year. That would have devastated school systems had the legislature passed that. As a reminder, this was substituting a sales tax for property taxes. Those revenues fluctuate with the economy making it difficult to project expected revenue for setting a budget.

I also hope they look at the current funding formulas along with the austerity cuts that have negatively impacted several school systems. Can you believe the state still only allocates about $60 for books for each student at the high school level? That requires a LOT of local funding to make up the actual differences.

This may not be popular but we will have to discuss the possibility of tax increases. IMO, Education, Transportation, and Healthcare are just three of the major issues this session must address. I cannot see a way to effectively fund these areas unless we have honest conversations about where the money will come from. I don’t like the idea either but what are the alternatives? There is so much cutting that can be done before you begin to compromise services.

By Reality

January 12, 2009 10:03 AM | Link to this

Did anyone read the ajc article this past weekend about the APS financials? In it, they showed that over 50% of the employees were NOT classroom teachers!

How can that be? Isn’t the sole purpose to exist for APS is for classroom learning? As I recall, their ratio was something like one classroom teacher for every non-classroom teacher. That is just ridiculous. Does every single teacher need a personal administrator? Is the central office really that big?

When we discuss budget woes and where to reduce cost - these non-classroom employees should be the first to go! Stop impacting the classroom learning!!

The GA State legislators need to pass a State law that the ratio is at least three classroom teachers for one non-classroom teacher.

By Anon

January 12, 2009 11:06 AM | Link to this

Since the APS article was on the front page, it does make you wonder why Laura didn’t make it the blog topic. Doesn’t she cover APS?

By voice of reason

January 12, 2009 12:04 PM | Link to this

RE: Kindergarten I thought Kindergarten wasn’t required in Georgia - maybe mandatory Kindergarten, or even pre-K may be a good thing. However, I don’t think it is wise to loosen up the age requirements (which I am not sure exactly how it is stated). I think 1 year difference in a Kindergarten classroom is HUGE, and the wider the age difference, the more difficult it is for teachers to teach.

RE: teacher vs non-teacher I’m pretty sure non-teacher employees aren’t just administrators. I didn’t read the article, but wouldn’t cafeteria people, janitorial staff, office staff, nurses, etc. also included as school employees? Is 1:1 really outrageous? Is 1:3 realistic? In other words, if an elementary school has 30 teachers, would 10 enough: 1 Principal, 1 AP, and 8 others for cafeteria, nurse, etc.? How are people like librarians, coahces, etc. counted? I would think they are important for students’ education.

By Another assault on teachers

January 12, 2009 1:40 PM | Link to this

Something that the state board of ed seems to be trying to slip under the radar is to bar educators from running for school boards. Not in the systems they work in; but where they live, vote, and pay taxes.

This is nothing less than an assault on a basic citizenship right of teachers to participate in the political process. I hope GAE is going to stand up for them and publically oppose it, like they did the insulting request for teachers to give back their salaries in Fayette.

By Larry

January 12, 2009 2:00 PM | Link to this

Amen, Ernest. Hopefully, the current economic situation has caused Speaker Richardson to see the fatal flaw in his plan.

After years of austerity funding reductions, it would be nice – albeit unlikely – if the legislature would stop allocating public education funds to the private sector with no accountability. Last year’s special education scholarships, for example, require little more than the satisfaction of individuals spending public money.

Personally, I would receive great satisfaction from a Hooter’s voucher; it simply isn’t a proper use for public money. Hopefully, the legislature will see the similarity.

By fultonteacher

January 12, 2009 2:53 PM | Link to this

Voice of reason physical education teachers, media specialist, art teachers and music teachers are teachers and were counted as such. A coach can be any teacher in the school that’s willing to take the job. They are compensated through a supplemental check.

I would like to see vouchers. better teacher training and a more fair salary scale.

By Jake

January 12, 2009 3:22 PM | Link to this

Institute CRCT’s for teachers! Fire the ones that don’t pass and pay the ones that do more money.

By Reality

January 12, 2009 3:48 PM | Link to this

voice of reason and fultonteacher

More specifically, a teacher has an education certificate from the GA PSC. Custodians, cafeteria workers, and even administrators do not (Administrators have a different certificate from the PSC). People with a teaching certificate include classroom teachers (music, history, math, etc.), librarians (aka media specialists), and even PE teachers. Real “coaches” must have a certification, but some do come from the outside but there still must be a certified person present as long as students are there.

I just cannot believe that a 1:1 ratio for certified teachers and then others is ideal. That means for 30 certified classroom teachers you need 30 others? Seems ridiculous to me and certainly an opportunity to reduce staff!

By Cobby

January 12, 2009 3:51 PM | Link to this

We need to allow teachers who retire to come back without penality. We can can back after a year, but the State is losing valuable experience.

By Jeff Hubbard

January 12, 2009 4:14 PM | Link to this

GAE believes the participation of educators in the electoral and governance process is vital to a strong and vibrant democracy. Therefore, we are staunchly against any attempt to stifle our voices as citizens and public educators to serve as elected officals at the local, state or national level. We have much to give in and out of our classrooms and our right to serve as lawmakers should not be taken away because of individual agendas within certain elected bodies of government. Jeff Hubbard, President - Georgia Association of Educators

By TW

January 12, 2009 4:23 PM | Link to this

Generate the funds to build the necessary schools and hire the adequate number of teachers. ANY debate that excludes this, especially that which scapegoats the teachers, is nothing more than an ungrateful citizen who doesn’t want to pay to live in the great United States of America.

The lone reason the public schools drag when they do, outside of moron parenting, is the limitation of funding by the ingrates who care nothing about our country, only of themselves.

By David S

January 12, 2009 4:35 PM | Link to this

Same issue every year. Government run education is a failure and Georgia is one of the best examples of that failure.

Any legislative effort short of getting the government out of the theft business for funding and the micromanagement business for operation will come up way short as always.

Don’t worry, every 12 years you just fail another generation of kids and parents. Not that that is important.

By Jake

January 12, 2009 4:35 PM | Link to this

TW - “lone reason”? That’s an untrue oversimplification of some complex issues. How about a significant percentage of classes taught by uncaring and/or incompetent teachers? How about the allocation of those scarce financial resources, too much money going to administrators, and NCLB nonsense. We devote far too many resources (summer school classes to pass CRCTs) to the lower segments of the population where there is little payback.

By Lynn Huntley

January 12, 2009 4:39 PM | Link to this

The State of Georgia has promised all of its 4-year old children access to high quality,publicly supported pre-kindergarten. Only 55 percent of eligible children are being served ,however. To serve these children would not require new taxes because there is a large lottery reserve that was created to support pre-kindergarten. This should be our top priority going forward—to help our children get a quality start in school and in life through pre-kindergarten. In tough economic times, this is something that is doable, can help close the achievement gap and contribute over time to better education outcomes. Education is the key to a working democracy, reduced inequality, strong economic growth, and a better quality of life for everyone. The website of the Southern Education Foundation, www.southerneducation.org, contains a report on Georgia Pre-K that tells the story of why it is important, who is being served and who isn’t, and what is at stake. Let’s get this done, people! Lynn Huntley

By voice of reason

January 12, 2009 4:48 PM | Link to this

Reality & fultonteacher;

Thanks for clarification. When I said “coaches,” I had in mind those instructional coaches that some schools have, not athletic coaches.

So, in the teacher vs. non-teacher stat, the criteria is whether or not a person has a teaching certificate? Don’t administrators (at least some) maintain their teaching certificates even after they get administrator certificates - most of them do start out as classroom teachers, don’t they?

What I am trying to get at is to really clarify what these categories really mean before we get so worked up about it.

Wouldn’t it be reasonable to expect 2-3 janitorial staff for a school (with say 30 teachers)? I would imagine 1-2 nurses would be appropriate, too. I imagine you need 2-3 people/receptionists in the front office. How many in cafeteria, 4-5? How about if they hire some people for before or after school programs - are they counted in this stat? The non-teacher category must include people other than administrators.

By Craig

January 12, 2009 4:58 PM | Link to this

More money is not what is necesssarily needed to have a better edecation system. We have been throwing more money @ this situation for years and we are still graduating incompetant people. We need to get back to basics to insure that kids can read,write,do simple math, and have a good knowledge of history, literature, science, and geography. Take the politically correct BS out of the classroom, get rid of the teachers unions, and make teachers demand excellence from our students.

By Michael H. Smith

January 12, 2009 5:08 PM | Link to this

The State by some means should address adult illiteracy so the parents of school children can and perhaps will read to and with their children at the earliest age.

Unfortunately, 1 out of 7 adults in this country cannot read this story.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-01-08-adult-literacy_N.htm

By broken record

January 12, 2009 6:39 PM | Link to this

Wow… “get rid of teachers (sic) unions”…what a great idea. Oh wait, there are no teacher’s unions in GA. I like this one too…”make teachers demand excellence from our students”. Obviously all the failure is becuase teachers are not asking much of their students…couldn’t possibly be because they have no authority and are not able to dole out consequences for those that don’t excell.

Craig, really? Come on now, stop yanking our chain. Why don’t you run for public office? I hear there is in opening for “Governor” soon.

By Gene

January 12, 2009 6:46 PM | Link to this

Legislators have always preferred to spend money on jails and prisons than to spend smaller amounts of money on effective programs to help keep males in school and off the streeets and to address the growing problem of teenage pregnancies. There is a direct relationship between high-school dropouts and crime, and many children of teenage mothers end up with grandmothers and other relatives who are not prepared economically or socially to raise them. The cycle just continues.

By Grannycares

January 12, 2009 7:36 PM | Link to this

Think that it is time for some absolute standards to be established to insure our children are prepared to compete as adults. Our future competitors are not going to care if they ‘hurt the feelings’ of our kids. Students around the world today are getting grounded in math, science, and language. Even with all the money we expend on public education, I can’t determine what we are getting from it! Our kids in Georgia continue to score at the bottom in the US, and the US is slipping each year globally. I for one think that our kids can compete if they are taught and not socially promoted by someone trying to be nice. Tough standards today will cause them to love the teacher in the future!! The legislature could at least put some ‘desired outcome’ language in their bills!!

By Reality

January 12, 2009 7:50 PM | Link to this

voice of reason

Regardless if an administrator has kept up their teaching certificate or not, they do not count, period, at all. An administrator is like “management” and the certified teacher is like the “blue collar worker.” Some administrators do come from the classroom, but not all. Once a “teacher” becomes an “administrator” they do not count in the same category.

The GA State PSC has a separate certification for “administration” and for “teachers”.

Regarding “coaches”…. I don’t care if you call them “instructional” coaches or whatever, the State of GA has a law that a certified teacher must be present at any official school function where students are present - this includes sports practices, games, club events, whatever. So, if a person from the ‘outside’ comes in to a school to coach a sport, a certified teacher must still be present during all activities. That is the law.

Regarding your other categories…. I have worked at two high schools and neither had a nurse. These schools have student populations of 1200 to 2100. There were about 4 custodians per school. There were about 6 administrators (principal and assistant principals) per school. There were about 4 secretaries per school. There were about 7 counselors per school. And, there were about 55 teachers per school. I haven’t a clue how many cafeteria workers there were nor how many teacher’s assistants or school police or other there were. Also, don’t forget about the bus drivers.

My whole point is that schools exist for the purpose of educating students inside of the classroom. It is just crazy to think that for 1 classroom certified teacher that there must be 1 other employee. It just isn’t logical to me at all.

By daddycares

January 12, 2009 7:53 PM | Link to this

Granny,

You said “the US is slipping each year globally,” but I think that is far from the truth. The US is still number one economy in the world, the US workers are most productive in the whole world, etc. Even in math and science in schools, they aren’t really “slippling.” They have been mediocre ever since these international studies began several several decades ago.

As for social promotion - it is interesting to note that social promotion is THE norm in Japan, one of those countries who consistently outperform our students.

One of the challenges of education is that there is no single factors that affects education in the same way - different group of kids, different results.

By Reality

January 12, 2009 8:00 PM | Link to this

Craig

I teach high school. I have high expectations of my students. I demand excellence from them. This is a true story…

At the beginning of the school year, I had a student (lets call her Sally). Sally was very quiet. She did her work and made As in my class. She seemed very bright and did very well. She was one of three students in my class that made As on a regular basis.

About a month into the semester, the mother came to visit me out of the blue. No appointment, no email, nothing. She showed up after school and demanded to speak with me, so I did. Well, I should say that I was only able to listen.

For 45 minutes, she yelled at me. From what I could understand, she was angry at me because I expected a lot from her daughter. How dare I ask her daughter to do homework!?! How dare I have a class where her daughter had to actually study for the tests?!?!? She had to even go out and buy a calculator for her daughter - can you imagine!? And, if that wasn’t bad enough, I even had the audacity to grade the homework when it was turned in!

Keep in mind that her daughter was making As in my class. Sally had never complained to me. Sally had never indicated that she was upset or mad or stressed in any way. Sally had never come to me for tutoring or help at all.

So, to appease the mother, the administrators moved Sally to an “easier” teacher. Sally still makes As. But now, Sally doesn’t have to do any work and it is likely that Sally isn’t learning much at all.

It is the students and the parents that want to dumb down school - not the teachers!

By HS Sp Ed Teacher

January 12, 2009 8:09 PM | Link to this

There is a lot of money spent on low performing students—that is correct, but instead of thinking about a pay back, think how much students like this cost in the future. Remember the bumper sticker back in Zell’s days? “If you think Education is costly, think about the cost of Prison” or something to that effect.

I just got a new student today. He will be 20 years old in a few weeks, reads at the 2nd grade level and his Math skills are 3rd grade level. Now, what kind of resources does he need to prevent him from being a drain on society? He just moved to GA a few months ago too. How can he fit into the classroom? There may not be a way he can graduate before he ages out of school (age 21), what will happen to him? This is a problem waiting to be solved. He has few skills and with the economic situation, I don’t see how he is worth minimum wage at any kind of legal job. How will he gain skills to be self supportive? He probably will exit the school system with a Sp Ed diploma. Because of the way GA counts their graduation rate, he will be counted as a drop out.

I appreciate all my friends in the Legislature who keep me updated on what is going on Education. As a teacher, every aspect of my job is in their hands.

I have been extremely active in the Republican party all my life, with a Grandmother who was on the State Committee in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. When I became a teacher, I was glad to find out there were many Republican members in NEA.

When I moved to GA, it was good to see so many Republican GAE members. I too have been on the State Committee, lobbied, and worked for the good of my Party, State, GAE, and my school system.

By SD

January 12, 2009 8:10 PM | Link to this

All the discussion, money, and ideas aren’t going to help if we don’t make parents accountable. There is plenty of money and good programs and teachers who know what we are doing. We just can’t do it with children who have spent their lives in front of televisions and computers. Parents making excuses and children who have never been told no keep a good bit of teaching from happening. If we want teachers to do our jobs then send us kids who can actually participate in an activity. We spend most of our time trying to tailor instruction for the precious angel who has been allowed to do whatever he/she wants his/her whole life. It’s just not possible to make miracles happen no matter what kind of materials, money, or other resources are out there. Start at the root of the problem and things will change.

By TW

January 12, 2009 8:18 PM | Link to this

We devote far too many resources (summer school classes to pass CRCTs) to the lower segments of the population where there is little payback.

Jake@4:35 - thanks for your honesty. After all, the only thing a bigot really has going for him is his pride. I’m glad to see you separate yourself from the closet bigots who currently infest the rightwing.

By ray

January 12, 2009 8:29 PM | Link to this

If it’s the teachers’ fault, how come the public schools in the rich neighborhoods do so well? How does that happen? How’d that happen if the the teachers aren’t any good? Don’t hear the Walton alumni griping about the publicly funded high school education they received. Milton grads? Lassiter? Parkview?

Seems to me like it’s the crap neighborhoods more than anything. Maybe, as a society, we ought to work on that so the kids will be better equiped to take advantage of the education being offered them?

By Mike D

January 12, 2009 9:02 PM | Link to this

I’ve said this before there are to many non teaching positions in all of the school systems. Georgia may not spend the most per student but we are far from the cheapest dollars per child. The school systems have become more about job banks for votes than helping our children. I say let the money follow the child. that way public school will have to compete with private (think beyond prep elite schools) for our kids. Do you no think that private enterprise will figure out a way to serve us for $10,000 per kid per year. If the public school had to fight to keep the kid, don’t you think they would try much harder?

By pinky

January 12, 2009 9:04 PM | Link to this

I would like to see an elected superintendent. There needs to be some accountability to the taxpayers, and currently there is none. When someone can be paid over $100,000 as a “substitute teacher”- there are absolutely no checks and balances.

By Courtney

January 12, 2009 9:08 PM | Link to this

More money for teacher by firing all the worthless dead wegith in the county offices. I have worked in DeKalb & Gwinnett and they both have administrators in the county office who are failed teachers and just sucking up BIG paychecks to do nothing.

By V for Vendetta

January 12, 2009 9:12 PM | Link to this

ray, I have one simple question:

Why?

By RF

January 12, 2009 9:17 PM | Link to this

Thank you Reality for voicing what is all too often the reality. Oh have I been there far too many times. And the saddest part is that those parents and children make it so very hard for the kids who truly want to learn and are willing to strive for goals to learn and have their fair share of our time and attention. As teachers, we are trained to set high standards, yet we consistently encounter parents who don’t want them or whine that we are pushing their kids too hard. Too hard??!! Is grownup life easy? Are they planning to support their kids until the parents die?

I fully believe in the proverb “it takes a village to raise a child.” What I don’t know is what to do when the village idiots are the procreators of so many of our children. When we work together in an environment where education is a priority, kids succeed. If either the school or the parents are not committed to education, children fail. I mean absolutely no disrespect to the many hardworking, devoted parents participating here. But please realize you are surrounded by many who are not helping create the village that children need. They are the ones criticizing and demanding that your children be held back and denied their due education so that we may make the less fortunate and less motivated feel good about themselves.

We should all be reminded that a good education is a PRIVILEGE, not a right. We should all, teachers, parents, business leaders, and children treat education as a valuable, even priceless privilege. When we value education and work together, we will see “reform” that will truly change the outcome. Until then, we just keep sniping, pointing fingers, and getting nowhere.

By Lou

January 12, 2009 9:18 PM | Link to this

What I’d like to see change is that students don’t need to wait weeks or even months before getting their textbooks. Cobb County has issues with this. Last year, in middle school, my daughter only received her science textbook in NOVEMBER. This is outrageous. Now this year, she is in high school. Although school started last week, she does not have a Geometry textbook yet. How are students to do their homework if they are not provided with textbooks or material they need. I emailed her Geometry teacher and was told that she (the teacher) has NO TIME to take an extra 5 minutes to help students who are struggling! This does not make sense. If teachers don’t have “the time” to explain properly, who suffers? It’s the students. No wonder our children do so poorly on CRCT tests. Many things have to change.

By John

January 12, 2009 10:09 PM | Link to this

If you get a chance check out the salaries of some of our educators in georgia. Now I know they are going to say I have the education for that salary, but are we really getting what we deserve for the salaries we taxpayers pay. Make them earn their money in the classroom, not by obtaining more degrees. Then maybe we will not rank as low in the nation.

By gwinnett educator

January 12, 2009 10:34 PM | Link to this

Lou, I dont even have Science books this yr.

By V for Vendetta

January 12, 2009 10:59 PM | Link to this

John, while you’re scoping out teacher salaries and the like, why don’t you also take a gander at the salaries of our other publicly funded employees (elected and otherwise). I think you’ll find that, in many cases, the teachers don’t look so “overpayed” (as you seem to be asserting.

There is no valid way to measure a teacher’s performance. NONE. But I’d be happy to let you measure mine—if, of course, I get to pick all of my own students. As long as students are randomly assigned—and let’s face it, is there any other logistically possible way?—it will remain impossible for someone to measure a teacher based on his or her “performance.”

By bwhite

January 12, 2009 11:18 PM | Link to this

A teacher speaks Try dragging a stubborn mule to the water hole and stick his head in the water. He won’t drink; he can’t; he’s drowning. He’ll drink when he’s ready, when he’s thirsty. Until learning is as essential to survival as water is to that donkey teaching is almost fruitless. There is little correlation between learning and surviving. Schools should get back to the basics. Schools can’t feed, protect, train, and discipline students. That’s for parents. A free public education is NOT for any child that refuses to follow the rules of the school or put forth effort to learn.

By D

January 12, 2009 11:23 PM | Link to this

Jeff Hubbard — Thank you so much for all you do to stand up for the STUDENTS and TEACHERS in Georgia.
Personally, as a Social Studies teacher, I would like to see more emphasis on Social Studies. Although I understand the “high need” areas of math and science, social studies prepares students for their role as citizens in what is becoming a very global community. Why are we constantly being treated as the “red headed stepchildren” of academics? -A proud DeKalb County teacher and member of the Organization of DeKalb Educators.

By THE Solution

January 13, 2009 12:10 AM | Link to this

*Psalm 9:17 “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God. *

Since God has been forced out of the U.S. schools and almost all aspects of the nation, negative results exist.

Simply stated, the GA educational system is pathetic and needs a complete overhaul. God, not the legislature, is the only one that can make the improvements. I suggest that we (including the legislators) pray and ask for His direction.

By jim d

January 13, 2009 7:00 AM | Link to this

Solution,

“God has been forced out of the U.S. schools”

Exactly when and how has that happened? Be specific now!

By V for Vendetta

January 13, 2009 7:12 AM | Link to this

THE Solution, your name and your post say it all. And we wonder why education in this state is so depraved. Good lord. (Pun intended)

By Harper's Mama

January 13, 2009 8:26 AM | Link to this

I find it interesting that math and science are the “critical areas”. How is a student supposed to read the directions for math and science and respond appropriately without a proper base education in ENGLISH??? Let’s teach them how to spell correctly and read on level so that they can achieve in the math and science fields.