Get Schooled

By Tony

December 29, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

NO. As in everything else, once the federal government gets involved in setting standards the result will be an intermingling of politics, finance and mediocrity. In efforts to make everything equal, dumbing down would occur in many regions where education is already superior. Please read Kurt Vonnegut’s Harrison Bergeron to get an idea of how it is possible to make everyone equal.

The United States already has one of the very best educational systems in the world. What makes it so great is the fact that everyone has access to schools. Anyone willing to put in the required effort will get a world class education. This is not true in other countries.

The so-called rising economies of India and China do not educate all the children. China is trying desperately to get all children in school, but it has great difficulty in its rural regions. Kids there are lucky to get the equivalent of sixth grade.

In India, caste blocks access for millions of kids when it comes to going to school.

When the US is compared to other nations in terms of international tests, the results are given in percentages. What this hides is important. Our population is many times larger than most of the higher ranking countries. This means that, in absolute terms, we have many more students achieving higher levels of success than those other countries. Of course, this is not reported.

If we are so concerned about the educational attainment of our children, why don’t we look at the real contributing factors that affect learning? Children’s healthcare is one issue that is frequently neglected. Nutrition is another. Both of these issues are directly related to poverty. We skirt these issues that have direct bearing on the children’s learning and focus solely upon the schools. Schools can not fix these social factors that affect student learning.

AJC’s SAT article this weekend was quite telling. In fact, you guy’s hit one of the nails right on the head. Our country has a serious problem with educational priorities. Sports have such a prominent position in our society that people are willing to distort the importance of academic standards in order to come to the playing field. The society at large backs the schools with generous contributions to the athletic programs. Now, let’s ask about where the real priorities are.

By GeorgiaMath

December 29, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

You are raising a number of intertwined issues here for which answers may vary.

I DO think it is a good idea to have a national standards, at least in math. However, the standards should be set so that they are reasonable for a majority of students. One potential impact of a national standards will be an improvement of textbooks. With a common standards, publishers no longer have to create different books for different states - the authors have a better sense of what students have previously studied upon which any new idea can be built on.

Issues of how to deal with students who are struggling or excelling is a separate issue, and it should be carefully addressed. However, having a national standards may make it a bit more meaningful to know what it means for a student to be “excelling” in math. When you have different standards in different states, it might be that an “excellent” student in one state with its standards may be “average” in another.

Of course, the issue isn’t really just having a national standards - whatever the standards we have should be focused and cohesive. If the contents aren’t organized in a coherent manner (from both the discipline’s and child development perspectives), then, having a national standards probably will not make any difference.

Although I understand Tony’s sentiment about the government involvement, I think education IS already very political. Moreover, it’s not about whether or not having a national standards that gets political - it’s more about various policies about its implementation that sometimes gets too political.

By jim d

December 29, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

I’m confused, are we talking national standards or universal standards? I do distinguish between the two although I really find neither appealing.

Actually I have a bit of a problem with standards in general as they are applied to education. Standards in education assumes that all children can attain the same level of learning and as we’ve discussed on this blog many times, this just isn’t the case. When we set standards high for one group we set it out of reach for another and when we set it low enough for the majority to reach we short change the children that could take it to the next level. So in that regard educational standards just suck and don’t do much other than allow politians to lay claim to improving education when in fact they have sent it into a downward spiral to hell with a “test is all” mentallity.

OK, I’m done ranting!

By V for Vendetta

December 29, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

This is a lose-lose situation. First, having national standards for education means very little if, in the long run, no one lives up to them. I’m not talking about the students here, I’m talking about the very people who are proposing the standards in the first place. If you’re going to set the bar high, just as it damn well should be, then you must first be willing to accept that things will get worse before they get better. As Jim D mentioned, not all kids are created equal. So, if you’re going to have high standards, you must be willing to understand that many kids will not be able to meet them

This is as it should be.

Second, if you leave the standards up to each individual state, you run the risk of watering down certain aspects of the educational system in search of more impressive numbers—exactly as Georgia has done. Under either plan, states/counties/regions will inevitably be compared to one another. This type of competition has typically resulted in the dumbing down of standards, not the increasing or intensifying them. As I’ve said: It’s a lose-lose situation.

If schools are going to remain government-run institutions then the answer is simple: someone has to step up to the plate and declare that the gloves have come off. Students who perform and achieve will be promoted and given every available resource. Students who can’t (or won’t) achieve will be diverted into an appropriate forum for improvement—but one that does not take away from or jeopardize the educations of those who excel. People will cease to worry about dropouts and realize that every moment and resource spent worrying about such students could be spent better educating the upper echelons. Technical schools will become legitimate and appropriately funded alternatives to college prep. An inevitable class divide will occur.

And is that such a bad thing? It doesn’t (and shouldn’t) take a genius to understand the intrinsic value of education. It’s time to stop feeling sorry for people. It’s time to worry about what’s possible from the best and the brightest.

By Tony

December 29, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

jim d - A really good example of the mix of politics, finance and federal government’s ideas of standards is the Food Pyramid. Check into how this guide to healthy eating became embroiled with politics and finance, and how the various food conglomerates were able to have their way. The same would happen in the development of educational standards.

BTW, there already exists documents for standards in the major disciplines from the professional associations. These documents are filled with good material and already serve as guides to the states. As for reining in textbooks, that would be a wonderful idea. But, there you have another big money issue. Right now, New York, California, and Texas set the textbook agenda for the rest of us.

And, a double amen to your closing argument. Tests are ruining our students’ learning opportunities by closing the doors to curriculum that is not tested.

By Tony

December 29, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

oops - I addressed the wrong blogger- GeorgiaMath should have been the one asked to check out the food pyramid. My apologies to both distinguished bloggers.

By Tony

December 29, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

An inevitable class divide will occur. I think we are well past this occurrence. Now, some want to look the other way and blame “education” for creating the problem. It is very apparent that there are extreme class differences. Test scores, economics, graduation rates, unemployment rates and other data will bear this out.

By jim d

December 29, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

Tony,

have you heard any scuddlebutt on Gwinnett’s new High stakes testing vehicle? The Mathematics Reasoning Test? (MRT)

By Tony

December 29, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

I’ll check it out, jim d. I’ve not heard anything in my circles, but just the name of it sounds ominous.

By Tony

December 29, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

jim d- I found references to the test on the system web-site. However, no content information was provided. I will editorialize slightly - the CRCT is severely lacking when it comes to learning what children know about mathematical thinking. However, I am very leery of additional standardized tests. It is hard for me to believe that another test could be designed and implemented that effectively measures a child’s capacity to think mathematically.

The information provided did state that the MRT was a gateway for 4th and 7th grade students. These results are used in combination with CRCT and students’ grades.

By jim d

December 29, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

Tony,

What i find interesting about this is that it was only about 5-6 years ago that they ditched the math portion of the Gateway test due to redundancy between it and the CRCT, only to spend more money developing a new test which generally takes several years. Can’t help but wonder if that wasn’t the plan all along to silence a few distractors, like myself.

The combination they speak of specifically states that students must pass the MRT. Of course that means they will evaluate and exempt anyone that fails it and pass them along.

What I find most disturbing is that while GCPS spends more per student than most school systems in Georgia they really haven’t produced the world class system they’ve promised. To be a bit more precise, they have continually failed to produce the desired results, that they claim testing will provide, for better than 10 years and millions of dollars. One can’t help but wonder how long they will continue to throw good money after bad.

By Tony

December 29, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

As long as the testing frenzy continues unabated, I do not see many school systems giving up their tests. Within our own system, the A.S. is continually pushing for more testing of children. You are absolutely correct when you say testing has failed to provide results. Tests do not teach children. Teachers teach children.

For some reason, the Business Roundtable ilk has convinced superintendents that test data can be used to improve student learning. To some degree, it can. However, we have moved well beyond the collection of data that provides a general summary to the overcollection of data that are becoming more and more meaningless.

There is much evidence now that parent satisfaction data are a better indicator of a school’s performance than test results are.

I doubt seriously that Gwinnett has sunk the money into developing this MRT that is required to validate it appropriately. To quote friends from EDDRA, we are adding one more massed-produced test booklet to the list with no real basis for understanding what the results really mean. Yes, the dollars spent on developing this test could have been spent on providing a few more teachers for the children who need more support. A test will not teach them to perform mathematics.

By jim d

December 29, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

OMG TONY,

YOU are perhaps the first educator I’ve ever seen insinuate that perhaps—-just perhaps parents have any inkling whatsoever of how well a school is doing their job of providing an education to their children.

THANK YOU

By Lee

December 29, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

All this talk about universal standards is akin to watching a dog chase its tail - amusing and a great source of entertainment for awhile, but then you realize that the dog will never catch its tail and public education will never adapt AND implement meaningful standards.

Let us not forget what got us into this mess - schools were graduating illiterates.

Now, several years after enactment of the NCLB and after years of standardized testing, schools are STILL passing students from grade to grade and are STILL graduating illiterates.

No, schools will not improve until society admits the existence of the 800 lb gorilla in the room - that is, differences in IQ and the many ways that this difference manifests itself in the classroom and in society.

Brown vs. Board was the first shovel of dirt thrown into the grave of public education. It federalized public education and ripped control from the locals and introduced the concept of equal outcomes.

That’s worked out real well, hasn’t it?

Next comes the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) which took Brown vs. Board one step further and pushed the special ed student into the general population classroom. Another shovel of dirt.

NCLB. Still another.

Universal Standards. More of the same.

Tony mentions poverty and the accompanying lack of healthcare and malnutrition and the effects that these have on education. What he fails to acknowledge is the root cause of poverty is low IQ. You just don’t see many Mensa members living in Section 8 housing or the trailer park.

Am I advocating disregarding the student with low IQ? Of course not. But to try to teach a student with an IQ of 80 in the same manner and pace that you teach a student with an IQ of 110 is an exercise in futility - or, a typical public classroom.

I gotta go now. Homer the black lab is chasing his tail again…

By Tony

December 29, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this

Lee - How in the world do you conclude that the root cause of poverty is low IQ? That is about the most absurd thing I have ever heard. Poverty is perpetuated in our society largely by two factors: creating a welfare system that increases dependence on others and laziness.

While differences in IQ can account for some learning differences in children, it is more important that the child wants to learn and the parents push and challenge him or her. Work ethic and a desire to improve yourself do wonders to overcome some disadvantages.

jim d - You’re welcome.

By V for Vendetta

December 29, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

Lee and Tony: You’re both right. The pathetic system of handouts developed by this country has perpetuated an entire class of freeloaders and bums. One need only to check the Free and Reduced lunch percentages in any metro county school to see that they don’t match up with the socioeconimic status of the district. Despite the surrounding population, the numbers are almost always absurdly high.

That having been said, IQ is also a semi-accurate predictor of performance (hence the term). Sure, exceptions can be made, but, for the most part, children with higher IQs will succeed more often than those with lower IQs. There used to be a poster on this blog—SET—who asserted that IQs were tied to race and that there were meaningful differences between the IQs of whites, blacks, Asians, and so on and so forth. While I’m not entirely convinced that that’s true, what IS important is that ALL people, regardless of race, have different IQs. The playing field is NOT level. This has been a problem for a long time; Lee’s examples in regards to this are spot on.

Yes, Tony, I think a class divide already exists between the haves and the have nots; however, I think with a truly competitive education system in place, whatever that may be, the divide would grow even larger. And, as I said before, who cares? It doesn’t take a genius, or someone with an IQ of 80 for that matter, to understand the intrinsic value of an education. I’m tired of worrying about the slugs. I’m tired of people feeling sorry for other people. I’d rather worry about the winners, the achievers, and the students who are self motivated to succeed.

Damn the rest.

By Lee

December 29, 2008 8:28 PM | Link to this

Tony, while maybe not the absolute root cause, it’s a pretty damn important factor and one of the causal factors.

V, yes, SET advocated the tenets of the Bell Curve theory, which is the main reason you cannot have an effective, honest dialogue about intelligence and its effect on the classroom, learning, and by extension, behavior - anytime you suggest one race is more intelligent than another, you will hear the cries of racism.

Let’s talk about the results of all this standardized testing. Given a sufficient population, the results tend to correlate with the Bell Curve IQ theory hierarchy - Asians on the top followed by Whites, Hispanic, and Blacks, in that order. But, you will never, ever, hear a school administrator mention this correlation. To do so would be an instant crucifixion in today’s politically correct society.

Which is why I continue to say the biggest impediment to true school reform is our lack of an honest dialogue regarding IQ and its effect on education.

Sorta like a drunk has got to admit his problem before he can begin the road to recovery.

By jim d

December 30, 2008 6:48 AM | Link to this

After a great deal of consideration I’ve concluded UNIVERSAL STANDARDS would be a good thing to have in education.

Yes Sir, Universal standards for Superintendents and Board members would be an excellent idea. And Please let us start in Gwinnett County.

By jim d

December 30, 2008 6:54 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I must respectfully disagree. Some of the smartest people I’ve met were crooks that came from less than well to do families. The only difference is they have yet to be caught.

By V for Vendetta

December 30, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Lee, I was merely using The Bell Curve as an example, but it is in no way purely factual. In fact, there have been myriad reports since its publication in 94 refuting the techniques the authors used to collect their data. Other reports go on to show that the testing gap between whites, blacks, and hispanics is continuing to shrink. This data would lead one to assume that IQ is a heritable trait, but it is not necessarily directly tied to race. It is impossible to have such a discussion without taking into consideration the socioeconomic factors prevalent in our educational systems.

However, I argue that we shouldn’t care about such factors and that we should stop giving handouts regardless. People can’t control the situation into which they are born—that much is indisputable fact. It is not up to the haves to feel socially responsible for the have nots. That’s a misguided and ignorant guilt trip that’s be levied upon society by the uber-liberal and ultra-conservative. Instead, we should focus on the best and the brightest while providing acceptable alternatives to the rest. Whether or not they choose to take advantage of those alternatives is up to them.