Get Schooled

By dittohead

November 27, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

By Jeff

November 27, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

Parents are often the LAST to know if a kid is in a gang.

More likely though, this kid was a wannabe.

And if that is the case, better he learns now that it is NOT worth it.

By Lee

November 27, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

More “zero tolerance” bullcrap.

They showed that six pointed star on tv. It looked just like the Star of David to me.

Was this kid engaging in gang violence, bullying, intimidation, or and of the other activities associated with gangs? No. He just drew some random drawings and got a three day suspension - which, by the way, the parent cannot appeal or get overturned because it is not a “long term suspension.”

I don’t blame the dad for being p** off at the school. I would be too.

But, when you have principals who don’t know the difference between a Tweety Bird keychain and a deadly weapon, or now, a doodle and gang activity, what do you expect?

This is a perfect example of why vouchers and school choice will eventually become reality, and no one will shed a tear for the demise of public education as we know it.

By Tony

November 27, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Okay. The Tweety Bird comparison is certainly valid today. When I saw this on the news I cringed because I knew how damaging this act was and how it would be used against the schools.

The first thing I have to acknowledge is that we do not know the rest of the story. The school, by federal law, is not allowed to discuss any of the facts of the case because of the student’s privacy. All we know is what the child and the father have stated.

Gang symbols, paraphernalia, clothing and other related activities are used in schools to intimidate and threaten others. Schools must provide a safe learning place for everyone, and the schools are well within their authority to monitor activities and impose suspensions when appropriate.

So, what’s better for the school? Err on the cautious side and take action against the student? or Err by having no action and allow gang activity to further creep into the school? There is a cartoon that floats around with the devil showing a principal two doors. One is labeled daed if you do and the other is labeled daed if you don’t. The devil is insisting the principal must pick one of the doors. The job is riddled with decisions that have similar dilemmas.

Either way schools decide in cases like this, the result will be used to advocate for vouchers, choice or dismantling, just as Lee has already stated.

By Tony

November 27, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

oops. I forgot the double asterisk turned on bold type. the line was supposed to be

da@#ed if you do and the other is labeled da@#ed if you don’t.

By Lee

November 27, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

FYI Tony, damned will get by the filters.

Here is the video of the newscast. You will see that he drew circles, squares, and other random shapes. He may or may not have seen the star shaped symbol around school and may or may not have known what it meant.

This is equivalent to many of the hate crime laws we now have on the books. It’s a slippery slope, my friends, when we try to punish someone for what they THINK.

By Larry

November 27, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

There is no such thing as “the” Folk Nation gang. The Folk Nation is an alliance of individual gangs which started in Chicago about thirty years ago. Member gangs use their own colors, but one of the alliance’s main symbols is the Star of David.

Looky here

Cobb school officials might consider revisiting their policy, unless they think Larry County Public Schools has a nice ring to it.

By jim d

November 28, 2008 1:10 AM | Link to this

you’ve gotta be sh#ting me!!

Lock up all the little Jewish kids!!

By Larry

November 28, 2008 3:37 AM | Link to this

Yeah, they’ll probably start with that Hasidim Gang – you know, the one that prays on the people.

Oy vey!

By catlady

November 28, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

It would be nice if the rest of the story was available to us before we comment.

By Jeff

November 29, 2008 5:24 AM | Link to this

On Tweety Bird:

Again, Lee, the issue was not the actual object at the end of the chain. The issue was the 10” chain itself. And if you don’t think a 10” chain is a deadly weapon, I’ve got some ocean front property in NEBRASKA that I’d love to sell you. (Depending on the thickness, it could be anything from a garrote to a noose to a bludgeoning instrument.)

On the issue at hand:

Did th school overreact? Possibly. As others have said, I’d like to know the whole* story. The sad fact is that 99% of students today lie their tooth off, and 90% of their parents support them in it. IFF the kid is telling the truth, sorry dude, you’ll know better next time. If not, the suspension was warranted.

Unfortunately, gangs are an all too real problem. In fact, in the DA’s office where I work, we have one Investigator that almost exclusively works gang-related activity, and several others back him up due to the massive load of cases. Depending on the age of the person in question, any of 5 ADAs will be involved in the actual prosecution.

And our population is MAYBE half that of Cobb County. (roughly 100K)

SOME gangs try to walk the ‘straight and narrow’, but even these gangs are typically involved in shifting unrgistered guns, at a minimum. Most gangs we see are linked to armed robbery, drug trade, murder, rape, and several other really bad things.

And you WANT these elements in the schools???

By jim d

November 29, 2008 6:07 AM | Link to this

jeff,

so we ban any resemblence to a Star of david ( a religious emblem older than many civilizations) because some thugs have adopted it as a symbol?

Excuse me, but isn’t their a little something that prohibits government from doing that? As I recall the specific wording goes something like this: “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

By Lee

November 29, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

Ok, here is a picture of the infamous Tweety Bird keychain. Now then, if any administrator contends that this fits the definition of a dangerous weapon, then I think they should be fired for incompetence.

Schools have failed to get the true troublemakers away from the general student population and instead focus on trivial crap like doodles and Tweety Bird keychains. Give me a break.

[Or how about this, an Arizona student suspended for drawing a gun.}(http://www.kpho.com/news/13943838/detail.html) No threats. No blood and gore where he’s shooting other students or teachers. He draws a picture of an inanimate object and gets a five day suspension.

These students and their families are indeed learning a valuable lesson. They have learned that the schools are run by idiots and to never trust anyone in authority.

Of course, skepticism of authority is a valuable trait, IMHO.

Or, to paraphrase Voltaire, To be right when the government is wrong is a dangerous place to be.

By luvs2teach

November 29, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

Lee - for millionth time - it wasn’t the stupid piece of plastic that looked liked Tweety - it was the TEN INCH CHAIN (conveniently missing from the picture) that was the problem. The ten inch chain, I might add, that was clearly noted in the student handbook given to every student as being against the rules. Ignorance and innocence are not synonymous.

You continue to blame the administrators - I continue to blame the culture of litigiousness that permeates every knee-jerk reaction we have to events in the world. Post-Columbine, the zero-tolerance policy was applauded by parents - until an ignorant girl got caught in the foolishness. This is an example of the same - in an effort to appear tough against gangs, things like this happen. Instead of blaming the admin, we should be looking at the entire picture.

By Lee

November 29, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

Luvs, also for the millionth time, I have been referring to the Tweety Bird key chain. Take the time to scroll on down the link I provided and look at the PICTURE of that dangerous keychain.

The more y’all try to defend the actions of that principal, the sillier you look.

BTW, there is an anti-gun, anti-Second Amendment political movement out there who try to take advantage of tragedies such as Columbine to further their political agenda. The more rational folks like me know that a person who will willingly murder in cold blood will pay zero attention to the law that says you can’t have a weapon on school grounds.

Yes, I do blame the administrators. They are the ones who interpret the rules, regulations, policies, and procedures and who mete out punishment based on this interpretation. To punish the innocent based on a bad interpretation of policy is heresy, IMHO.

Instead of defending these idiots, teachers and fellow administrators should be trying to run them out of the system.

By luvs2teach

November 29, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

Lee, I’ve seen the chain - it fits the definition - there’s no interpreting “10 inch chain” as anything else. You could swing that thing around and hurt someone. That’s the point. I think your middle class bias is showing - I’ve worked in an “urban” school - I’ve seen things as innocuous as that chain turned into weapons that did serious damage (think hospital visit for stitches). If she were to swing that thing into someone’s face, and it hit her opponent in the eye, it would be a hospital visit, for sure.

I’m not trying to look silly defending anyone - I’m serious about what I have witnessed personally - some exceptionally nasty fights, and the worst were between girls. I’m also serious about placing blame where it belongs - on the law-suit happy people and their ambulance-chasing lawyers who look at any tragedy as a potential lottery windfall. Large school districts, and their large tax-dollar-lined pockets are protected by policies like this in the name of risk management. If the administrators let it go, and if she were to get in a fight, and if she were to hurt someone, then everyone would be crying about how they didn’t do anything about discipline - it’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t situation.

And it all could’ve been avoided if the ignorant girl paid attention to the rules spelled out in the handbook!

As for the gang symbol, I doubt highly that the boy was Jewish, therefore the whole religious tolerance thing is moot. The Star of David is used by some gangs as a symbols - my neighborhood was recently “tagged” on the utility boxes, and the Star of David was part of the whole thing - I know because I took pictures, and looked them up - I also sent them to the police.

By Lee

November 29, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

Luvs, well, if the definition of a dangerous weapon is “something that could be used to injure someone,” might I suggest you Google “student stabbed with pencil.”

That’s right, schools need to ban those dangerous writing instruments. No telling what those thuggish, urban students would do if they were to get their hands on one of those things…. ::sarcasm::

Ok, regarding the Star of David symbol, so what if schools ban the star. Guess, what, next week, the gangs will come up with a different symbol. Ban it, they will come up with something else. School officials chasing their tails on symbolism, but do little with the actions of the troublemakers - you know, the bullying, the fighting, the disruptions, etc, etc.

But let some kid scribble on a piece of paper, and they’re all over that. Did this kid attack anyone? Disrupt class? Talk back to the teacher? No, no, and no.

It’s all about trust, and right now, a lot of parents, like myself, do not trust the public school systems to do the right thing regarding our children.

God, I am so glad I can afford to send my daughter to a good private school.

By oh sweet jesus...

November 29, 2008 5:39 PM | Link to this

Lee read the caption under the picture in the article you linked. The CHAIN was CONFISCATED and therefore, not in the damn picture. Schools have rules about the wallet chains (not allowed) which is really what this was, NOT A KEY CHAIN. The cute little tweety bird seems to be rather distracting for those who keep trying to blame the school for enforcing rules that are no secret to anyone. But please pay attention. Same thing with the little doodling; pay attention to the little things because they usually lead to the big things (ask any cop). I found it interesting that this “doodling kid” kept looking down when he would answer a question during the interview. Too bad the school can’t release more information about this particular incident or other things that may be in his file for “privacy reasons”. There may be more to this story than meets the eye. Sort of like the kids who wear the football jerseys with the number 13 on them and have never even watched a football game…just happened to like that number I guess or maybe that particular jersey was on sale.

By Lee

November 29, 2008 6:25 PM | Link to this

Sweet Jesus, are you blind as well as unable to comprehend? The second picture in the article clearly shows the keychain and no, it does not in any way resemble a heavy wallet chain that many bikers wear.

Or, perhaps you can explain why the school system quickly backed down and reversed the suspension once the ACLU lawyers got involved.

Hint, maybe they knew they had no legal standing.

Bottom line, there is no indication in either the Tweety Bird or the doodling incidents that would lead one to believe that these were anything other than good kids who got caught up in the school’s asinine zero tolerance bullcrap.

Or, put another way:

Beware of stupid, petty people in positions of authority.

By Get a clue Lee

November 29, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this

A chain doesn’t have to be as thick as your skull to be used as or considered a weapon.

Bottom line, there are rules and everyone is aware of them. And YOU do not have the FULL story on either of these incidences because student privacy must be protected, so you do not know what the TRUTH is.

Schools, like some celebrities and businesses, settle issues to avoid COSTLY litigation… not because they don’t think they have a legal standing, but to save money and resources. For you to think they “backed down” because of your perception of a weak case shows what you know about litigation.

What you should really beware of is people making judgements with limited information. All you know is what you read/saw in media reports…and we all know how “accurate” those are!

By luvs2teach

November 30, 2008 12:21 AM | Link to this

Lee - I have seen a pencil in an eye, up close and personal - they should ban pencils - they’re dangerous and pointy, lol. I also saw the pointed end of a comb used to stab someone. I saw the concrete wall of the cafeteria used to do some damage to a girl’s face, too - maybe we should ban the building while we’re banning pencils and combs (it’s sarcasm, just in case you didn’t get it - but I was serious about the fights I’ve been “fortunate” enough to bear witness to).

That’s not really my point, though. My point is that the girl was imformed of the rule thorugh the handbook, and then chose to break it, however innocently or ignorantly, take your pick. The boy was informed of the rule against gangs symbols and he chose to ignore it, innocently or ignorantly, take your pick on that one, too. The problem is that these kids are going to run into rules that they are ignorant of (like Genarlow Wilson’s sexcapades) and find themselves in a lot more trouble than a suspension.

We’re not really on opposite sides on this, at least not in my opinion. I think the difference is that you see it as the problem and I see it as merely a symptom. You see it as a problem with the schools and their administration, and I see it as a symptom of a problem with society - a multi-faceted one at that. It is a symptom of the fears people feel of issues such as violence in schools, the litigiousness of our society and the attempt to put as many safeguards in place as possible, and the general ignorance of people of the rules put in place by institutions trying to deal with issues one and two.

I wish those stupid rules didn’t exist - I wish there was no need for their interpretation. I also wish that kids didn’t feel the need to prove themselves by beating each other to a bloody pulp or find a “family” in a gang because their own family is so dysfunctional. I’m glad you put your kids in private school - mine are done with public school as of this year, and I’ve already told them that my grandkids, whenever they arrive, will be going to private school. It’s not because of the teachers, though - or even admin. It’s because I see daily how the public schools are used as experiments - in social engineering as well as educational fads du jours, and I don’t want my grandkids subjected to that, or to teachers who are so bogged down with nonsense that they can’t teach.

By luvs2teach

November 30, 2008 12:25 AM | Link to this

You know - I wasn’t even teaching yet when the incident happened, and I remember thinking at the time that the girl wasn’t the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree - she admitted she knew chains weren’t allowed! The county probably backed down to save money in potential legal fees.

By Lee

November 30, 2008 7:56 PM | Link to this

Luvs, you and I do agree on most topics.

As you stated, just about anything can be used as a weapon, thus, the futility of trying to ban them. Years ago, I carried a pocketknife from the 1st through 12th grade. Just about all boys did. The difference back then was that principals dealt with the troublemakers and the rest of us would never dream of using a weapon in a fight. Yes, we had a fair share of fights even back then.

The case of the Tweety Bird keychain is the epitome of a lack of common sense. At some point, someone should have called a timeout and said “You know guys. It was never the intent of the zero tolerance policy to suspend a child for a toy.” But instead, they pushed forward and put a student and her family through Hell.

As far as the girl knowing that chains were banned, it stated in the article that the school showed students a heavy chain about two feet long when they were demonstrating banned weapons.

IMHO, no one in their right mind would ever consider a tiny keychain in the same category as a heavy link chain.

Thus, my problem with these adminstrators.

The doodling incident is merely more of the same.

When does it stop?

By Jeff

November 30, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Lee:

You clearly know nothing about urban hand to hand fighting with unconventional weapons. (Yes, I seem to remember at one point you mentioned you were in the Army once - a LONNNGGGG time ago. However, I happen to know that not even Recon Marines on their way to Iraq are trained in the techniques most any observant kid in a school with 30% or more Free/Reduced Lunch can demonstrate.)

Even a thin gold chain - such as a cheap necklace - can be used as a garrote, and it doesn’t take ANY training at all - just a single moment when the target either opens themselves up for it in a fight or when they aren’t expecting a fight.

MAYBE things have gotten better since I left the classroom nearly 2 yrs ago (hard to believe it was that long ago!), but I doubt it. But back then, I personally was assaulted or threatened with some use of force against me on at LEAST a weekly basis - and I was the TEACHER! I can’t imagine what it must be like to be an unpopular kid these days! I personally know of active-duty Marines that see less action than I did!

By Lee

December 2, 2008 5:08 AM | Link to this

Let’s see, the best y’all can come up with is that this tiny keychain COULD be used as a garrote or you could attach an object to the end of it and hit someone with it.

Which, by the way, you could do the same thing with a common shoe string.

You gonna ban shoe strings now?

Bottom line, an idiotic administrator put this girl and her family through hell because he didn’t have the common sense or good judgement that the position requires.

And like lemmings marching off the cliff, many of you go right along with him.

Amazing.

By jim d

December 2, 2008 7:33 AM | Link to this

Lee,

Amazing????

I think not! Just look where they recieved their education.

By Jeff

December 2, 2008 7:56 AM | Link to this

Lee:

Correction: The bottom line is that the girl put herself through that hell because she knew the rule and she knowingly violated it.

You should know me well enough to know I don’t mind breaking rules if the need arises. HOWEVER, I also accept any consequences of said violation.

By jim d

December 2, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this

Lee,

How much of the following would you say fits our public educational system today?

1: Teach beliefs and values which are recognized as correct

2: Education should offer prospects of future employment

3: Teach “right” attitudes or “character”

4: Provide studies on pre-history

5: Being forced to mix with the less privileged sections of the community

6: Teach history so it does not appear as a chronicle which strings events together indiscriminately, but, as in a play, only the important events, those which have a major impact on life, should be portrayed.

7: Transform the profession by controlling entry and promotion within it

8: Fine or imprison legal guardians for failing to comply with education laws.

9: Then teachers complain about the contempt for intellect cultivated and the arrogance displayed toward them by pupils.