Get Schooled

By Martina

November 25, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

Elementary students do have economic units. The Georgia Performance Standards for 3rd grade include entreprenuership, imports and exports, goods and services, interdependence of consumers and producers, and the costs and benefits of personal spending and saving.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

Martina,

That is indeed good news. Unfortunately I fear it will be wasted. In an ObamaNation, where the governement fills all human needs, capitalisim will surely die.

By Tony

November 25, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

Relevance is a powerful teaching tool. 1/2 unit of economics in high school is sufficient. Adding to the requirements of the HS diploma at this point would require everyone to go an additional semester just to meet the course requirements. I agree with jim d that unless we stop acting like government can meet all our needs, we are in for some desperate days ahead.

By boo hoo hoo

November 25, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

jim d you sound like a backward peckerwood. so sorry that Mcmaniac didn’t win. go crawl back in your hole and stfu!

By jim d

November 25, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

The only reason McCain lost is because of too many ignorant voters. Obama won 99% of the black vote. Need I say more???

By Lee

November 25, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

Well, well, well. How timely is this topic? What with Kathy Cox filing bankruptcy and all. Maybe they could get Kathy to come in as a guest speaker and give some “war stories.” That’d be great.

This whole thing does bring up an interesting question though. She recently won $1 million and pledged to donate it to schools. However, if she did take possession or will take possession of that money, it may be reassessed by the bankruptcy trustee on behalf of the creditors. (Bankruptcy law enables the trustee to reassess asset disposal 12 months prior to date of bankruptcy and in some cases, up to 5 years.)

Some other tidbits from the article:

• 11 credit cards with balances up to $54,000.

• A $450,000 home mortgaged up to the hilt - most likely to finance the business.

• Business in trouble for the past two years, but they went out and bought two new cars in 2008.

I mean, some of these mistakes are classic Econ 101. What a great “teaching moment.”

Seize the day, teachers.

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

I agree with jim d that unless we stop acting like government can meet all our needs, we are in for some desperate days ahead.

Completely concur.

Government makes the problem worse 90% of the time, and in the 10% of the time that the situation improves with government intervention, it usually was in spite of the government intervention.

By V for Vendetta

November 25, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

LOL, Lee.

We’ve disagreed from time to time, but I’m with you on this one. The two new cars thing just blows me away. I’d sure like two new cars in the same year, but I have to, you know, eat and all that.

:-)

By randolphcountyteacher

November 25, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Jeff

Can you give some examples where “Government makes the problem worse 90% of the time, and in the 10% of the time that the situation improves with government intervention, it usually was in spite of the government intervention.” You libertarians/paleo-conservatives/conservatives crack me up spouting that old chestnut about how government is bad. Waiting on your “facts.”

By Jason

November 25, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

jim d, you’ve been listening to too much Boortz. Guess it’s easier to parrot the talking points of a simplistic talk show host with no formal training in economics than to crack open a few books and reach your own conclusions.

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

One example:

Prior to 1954, the black community truly rivaled anything the white community had, and in most cases was far stronger than the white community because of the additional hardships they had to endure.

Then came the government, via forced integration, bussing, and the Great Society.

Now, those few elements that remain of the once great black community are ageing relics - and there are some within that even in the Hades-hole known as Randolph County.

Note here that I am not a Jim Crow apologist. That system was flat out wrong - but there again, it was a government system. My point here is that blacks like Jackie Robinson, MLK Jr, Miles Coltrane, and Carl Brashear were were prime examples of what the black society had in droves.

What have they got now? Curtis ‘50 Cent’ Jackson??

By Huh?

November 25, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

…and the White Community has Jeff ‘The Aspberger ’ Blog Troll!

By randolphcountyteacher

November 25, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

How about Barack Obama and Frederick Gregory to name a few? Not only do you sound like a Jim Crow apologist but you come across as an immature one if you think all that we have is 50 cent. Getting rid of you was the best thing that my county did.

By Huh?2

November 25, 2008 11:58 AM | Link to this

Jeff that analogy that you cited was a stupid one. If you don’t understand why I’m afraid that you are probably too ignorant to ever understand. I can see why you couldn’t hack it as a teacher.

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

rct:

I specifically avoided anyone born just as Jim Crow was coming down intentionally. I’m assuming - possibly incorrectly, admittedly - that their parents were part of that great black community and passed at least some of it to their kids.

Specifically, I was looking at my own generation and younger (born circa 1980 or later), as this is the point - 2nd generation, if you will - where values typically begin to change in any population. In other words, I treat WWII era blacks as natives of one country and look at it as one would look at immigration. (And when you think about it, given the totality of the changes that came to the black community in the 50s and 60s, it really did become a new country for that community.)

In a typical immigration scenario, the immigrants themselves are highly steeped in the old country ways, traditions, and culture. Hence the rise of Little Italy, Chinatown, etc. 1st generation Americans - the children of the immigrants born in America - typically retain much of the original culture, but also adapt many American ways. It is usually beginning in the second generation - the grandchildren of the original immigrants - that you begin to see significant shifts from the original culture. ANYONE that studies immigration issues and history can verify what I have just said.

Again: Applying this same process to the black community, I ask: What has the ‘second generation’ given us? 50 cent? ‘Tha Game’?? Yung Joke???

By Jason

November 25, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

Miles Coltrane? Ha! Also, “they” may have 50 Cent now, but we’ve got Nickelback, Britney Spears, the Simpson sisters, Kid Rock, et al. Sh*tty music and gauche materialism is embraced equally by whites and blacks.

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

Jason:

Haha. Just saw my typo… was thinking of both Miles Davis and John Coltrane and combined them… my bad!

By V for Vendetta

November 25, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

Prior to 1954, the black community truly rivaled anything the white community had, and in most cases was far stronger than the white community because of the additional hardships they had to endure.

I’d would wager a guess that the majority of the black community alive at the time would respectfully disagree with that assertion.

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

V:

Don’t look at it from a materialistic standpoint. I freely admit they didn’t have as much in that regard.

Look at issues such as depth of character and the strength of community though, and I believe you will see that the blacks equalled if not surpassed the whites in that regard.

By Be for real

November 25, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

And we are getting this sociology lesson from a failed teacher who blogs on company time?

By iEcon

November 25, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this

If today’s average student had even a passing knowledge of Economics, the Democrat Party would be no more and pathological liars & used car salesman like Obama who want to raise taxes would NEVER be elected.

Therefore, YES students need to learn more about Economics.

By for the record

November 25, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

And, iEcon, if today’s students had any grasp of the concept of the separation of church and state, the Republicans wouldn’t have a chance either…

It’s for two new parties.

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

real:

Lincoln, Edison, and Einstein failed FAR more often than they succeeded.

That you have to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than attacking my thesis speaks quite loudly, however…

By Dan

November 25, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

For the record would you care to explain where the concept (your version of it) of the separation of church and comes from. Just to give you a running start, you won’t find those words anywhere in the constitution or bill of rights

By Be for real

November 25, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

Jeff Now you are comparing yourself to KNOWN achievers??? WTF have you done except get kicked out of the classroom and obviously blog on company time? You have no thesis, just some bigoted ramblings of a former sped kid who thinks he has all the answers. Get a life loser.

By Jason

November 25, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

“If today’s average student had even a passing knowledge of Economics, the Democrat Party would be no more.”

What does this even mean? Today’s average student can’t vote—because he’s a child. Furthermore, most people with a passing knowledge of economics are Democrats: They’re the secular Ivy League-educated Cdoastal Elite you Republicans love to attack for believing in science and not identifying with real Americans. Remember? Finally, since you’re presumably well-versed in the dismal science, aside from Rush Limbaugh, who are some of your favorite economists and what works of theirs have most influenced your views on fiscal policy?

By Econ Major

November 25, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

For the Record,

Yes, but any Econ person would also weigh the utility of lower taxes versus getting their feelings hurt.

By Dan

November 25, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

But on topic, economics should be taught just like math and english. The main problem with our economy is personal responsibility and accountability. Maybe some early exposure would help people to understand the cause and effect of their financial decisions

By Chaz

November 25, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

Given that our kids can’t read, write or add and subtract anymore, I can only imagine the disinformation they would get from unionized teachers about economics. The mind reels. Hoo-boy!

By Law Student

November 25, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

Dan,

I agree with you socially, but Constitutionally, look to the Free Exercise Clause and the Establishment Clause. If you read them in conjunction, the government may not impermissibly establish religion.

By itpdude

November 25, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

I took a half credit of Econ in HS and it was eye opening. Up to that point I was very interested in history and politics and the such but was woefully ignorant of economics. I didn’t even know what the Fed was or what it did… until that class. Yes, it was only a half credit but it opened my eyes and I realized how intertwined political history is with economic history. My interest was spurred so much that I got a degree in Economics.

There should be more econ in HS, sure. But do not mistake quantity for quality. My interest was only spurred on by my own intellectual curiosity and an excellent teacher. He did in that half credit what many teachers would take 4 credits to do. He was excellent.

By Bob

November 25, 2008 1:27 PM | Link to this

Depends on whose economics. Austrian school, yes, teach it. Marxism, no. We get enough of that from the Democrats and media.

By Lee

November 25, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

It is horrible to think that a teacher will deviate from the planned lessons and curriculum devised to be easily tested. However, if any teacher could be that bold, I would suggest teaching basic things, such as not shopping for lowest monthly cost, but cost and financing; how to search for better deals on credit cards, and how to use them, and even better, cut them up into little pieces; how to figure out a household budget based on income, including food, clothing and shelter; how economic warfare is one of the cruelest ways to wage war; how to plan for retirement when you are 18; insurance needs and scams.

Far too many kids are graduating from high school without these lessons, and learn them the hard way. It’s a shame.

By Bob

November 25, 2008 1:32 PM | Link to this

randolphcountyteacher—

Education…more expensive than ever and crappier than ever…and more government controlled than ever.

Do you want more facts, or do you want to stick with that one for a while?

By randolphcountyteacher

November 25, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Bob You sound just like your fellow bigot and fool Jeff. You also haven’t listed any facts either. Have you polled enough schools to get a sample to base your opinion on? Or do you just have an opinion? Need I go on or do you want to stick with this one for a while?

By jmoss

November 25, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

How did this conversation become about race? Yes, the kids should have more economic classes starting in elementary school. That’s an no-brainer.

But, I want to know why Jim thinks that all Black people are dumb since he thinks 99% of Blacks voted for Obama. I guess he hasn’t been following politics for the last 40 years, but 95% of Blacks vote Democratic in every election (99% of the time it’s for a white candidate.)

I’ve never seen so much hate until I started to read the blogs here on the AJC. If you follow politics at all, you see that both party offer handouts to maintain their seats and power. Republicans are just as Socialist as Democrats. It amazes me how the Bible Belt is so strongly aligned with the Racial belt. When will it end?

Let’s focus on the topic at hand, which is about our kids (Black,White, Latino, Asian, etc.) learning about economics so they can better themseleves and our country. In that way, we wont have to falsey believe that the government can save us from our own problems.

Let’s love everybody, regardless of political party. We all want what’s best for this country, right?

By Ann

November 25, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

I think we need to differentiate the study of Economics. Are we talking about the theories of Macro, Micro or developmental economics or are we talking consumer economics? Both are needed in schools and need to be taught in more depth than the current 1/2 unit allows.

An additional course students may take as an elective is Banking and Finance. It is full credit course. This course provides an indepth study of consumer economics. It addresses your suggestions Lee of understanding compound interest, checking accounts, credit cards,stocks,investments and other topics that students would be well served to study in high school.

By V for Vendetta

November 25, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

Wow, this got nasty in a hurry. I’m just going to throw out a word and then enjoy the rest of my day. (I think it sums up much, but not all, of the root cause behind our economy’s current predicament.)

Deregulation.

There, I’m done.

By Wow

November 25, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

So, not only is Jeff a retard, but, he’s a racist retard! I hope you’re sterile.

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this

jmoss:

If you follow politics at all, you see that both party offer handouts to maintain their seats and power. Republicans are just as Socialist as Democrats.

Couldn’t agree with you more. One of the cool things about being a card-carrying (literally) Libertarian is that in a debate between the halves of the Democratic-Republican Party, I get to both agree with both on various specific issues while attacking each on their overall platform.

As for how race got interjected today, someone asked me to point to a specific example of how government made things worse, and they have yet to refute my example, instead resorting to ad hominem attacks.

On the overall issue of teaching economics: As Tony said earlier, to add more you would either have to sacrifice another class currently required or add another year to HS. Considering that, I don’t think the extra class is worth it.

By The Bell Tolls

November 25, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Abslutely students will benefit. I think part of what has happened in our society is that a lot of these people either failed to show up for class or there was no class. How else do you explain so many people getting themselves so deep into debt. There seems to be a complete lack of comprehension of not outspending what you earn.

The whole country beginning in our elementary schools needs to get back to some very basic fiscal principles. Some good old fashioned “Life Skills” like how to balance a checkbook, managing finances, debt to income ratio, etc. would go a long way to preparing our young people for the future.

What we got over the past 20 years is a lot of people who want instant gratification and an unwillingness to “work for” a goal you want by saving, planning, etc. We produced, “I want it now and I’ll just charge it and worry about paying for it later.”

Unfortunately, our government didn’t set much of an example either. If you need more money, just print more or raise taxes…

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

Wow:

How is it racist to point out that government forcing people to do something against their wishes destroyed an entire community?

It is racist to point out that Andrew Jackson’s forced removal of various Native American tribes from their lands was wrong?

Note that on the first question, the position I now espouse was pointed out to me by older blacks before I had ever really thought about it.

By verdi73

November 25, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

My students receive an economic lesson in my classroom everyday. I constantly reminded them that we must take good care of everything in the classroom as we have no money to replace it. This is being heard in many classrooms in our county as we have not been allowed to spend any money in our budgets yet, and we are almost half way thru the school year.

By Dan

November 25, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

Law student, stating that the gov may not impermisably establish religion, is somewhat of a broad self serving interpretation of the first amendment. The founding fathers were ingenius in the construction of these documents. In many or most cases providing strong directional guidance yet leaving it vague enough to evolve with society ie cruel and unusual punishment, speedy trial etc. In the case of religion it is quite specific stating Congress may make no law respecting the estalishment of religion, or preventing the free exercise of religion. Originally that was only for the federal government until the 14th amendment extend that to the states and local government. In any case however, it very specifically refers to legislative bodies enacting laws, and by its very specificity suggests that governmental actions short of laws are not subject to that requirement. Now if the people believe that needs to be updated and broadened so be it, but it needs to be done via constitutional amendment, not judicial fiat.
Oh and I am by no means a religious fanatic (I do believe the church might fall down were I to enter), simply applying fact and logic rather than layering assumptions

By Mishap

November 25, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

Georgia fights for position at the bottom of high school graduation rates with South Carolina and Nevada at 61% and you guys are complaining about Democrats winning the presidency as a reason for all the faults? No wonder we’re racing for bottom.

Last I checked Obama was an example of someone who used education as a means to get ahead in life. Yes, he’s a slightly better role model than 50Cent and he went on to defeat the laissez faire candidate and his distinctly anti-intellectual VP pick. His picks for economic cabinet/staff are being applauded by Wall St. who stand to lose the most should the country abandon capitalism so I highly doubt we’re turning into Cuba. Last I heard nearly every top economist(even the very conservative ones) in the country is a product of those elite Northeastern colleges.

As a product of Gwinnett County school systems in the last decade, I feel I can safely say Georgia high schools are simply some of the worst in the country. Between not engaging students, hiring substandard teachers, and absentee parents who blame teachers for every failing when they themselves, there simply isn’t much room for success.

I got more guidance and support on how to train for football than I ever did for getting into a top college. It took a year at GT to actually get myself into an Ivy League for economics and even there I got beaten down by far better prepared peers who came from highly ranked public schools throughout the northeast. As the sole person in my class to go to an Ivy, I was shocked to hear of high schools sending hundreds to top 10 colleges every year (My brother’s year did much better by sending at least 3). This is particularly sad given we lived in a fairly upper middle class area in the county.

Georgia benefits from a few solid colleges but the longer we continue letting our primary education stagnate, the sooner we fall back below the lower middle class status that Republicans hate so much for not paying income taxes b/c they don’t make enough. Pushing for better economics education but the basics of supply/demand aren’t going to save an entire working population of people who can’t do a budget or understand they can’t perpetually spend 150% of what they make.

By no brainer

November 25, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

yes - they should focus more on Economics, that would have made my life easier. Along with Electronics 101!

*and it looks like a lot of you guys need dicussion 101 - you seem to get off that easily.

By Tony

November 25, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this

Reading First Report

Let’s talk about a real education issue: learning to read. Here is the link to a recently released report regarding Reading First - the national reading program that included lots of corruption, money for Bush cronies, and strong emphasis on phonics instruction. The implementation of reading first in schools usually included multiple hours of scripted lessons with heavy phonics. Turns out that such an emphasis on phonics has a negative correlation to reading comprehension. To improve reading comprehension, it turns out that third grade and above benefit most from instruction in comprehension. There are many other tidbits in the reports. The spin doctors are already hard at work congratulating themselves on how well kids can call nonsense words (decoding) and call words fast (fluency). Maybe now we can get back to the business of really teaching our children how to read to learn.

By MannyT

November 25, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

If you expect adults to truly understand economics, they have to learn it somewhere. While families should teach their young the basics about money, there are concepts that may go beyond family budgeting.

Economics is a very worthwhile topic for our kids in our society regardless of ones political leanings.

Junior Achievement is a good start for younger kids, but economics needs a real place in the curriculum.

By Dan

November 25, 2008 2:46 PM | Link to this

The problem goes beyond economics. The political correctness of our society and politicians, creates a population more concerned about their priviledges than their responsibilities. You have kids getting free lunch carrying ipods, cell phones and $100 sneakers. So often the apologists cry “what so poor kids don’t deserve phones or nice cloths” The answer is no they don’t, nobody deserves any of that, they need to earn it, so people are lucky enough not to have to earn it most are not

By Jeff

November 25, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

Mishap:

Correction: McCain was by NO means ‘laissez faire’. He was nothing better than Obama-lite, which is why he lost.

By Jeffisatroll

November 25, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

Jeff Do the people you work for know that you blog during company time? Or is it the libertarian in you that causes you to do this?

By Jason

November 25, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

“Correction: McCain was by NO means ‘laissez faire’. He was nothing better than Obama-lite, which is why he lost.”

So he lost because he was like the guy who won? Interesting.

By tsk tsk

November 25, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Sounds like Jeff’s asperger syndrome is kicking in again.

By Mishap

November 25, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

McCain often proclaimed markets fixed all and his voting record showed he was one of the staunchest proponents of deregulation. Before the credit crisis he wrote an article on how marketization would fix healthcare’s ills. Just take a look at his top economic advisor Phil Gramm (PhD Economics UGA no less) who constructed the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act which helped usher in the equivalent of a financial services gold rush with the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

Gramm was also author of the Enron loophole while his wife sat on the Enron board. That legislation prevented any regulation of the derivatives market which allowed for Enron’s collapse as well as the wild-west credit default swaps market that’s threatened to take down so many big banks today.

McCain certainly strayed away from his “free-markets” approach to everything when it became clear he was losing significant ground to Obama. His attempts at populist policy like buying up bad mortgages were haphazard attempts at appealing to the struggling middle class who stopped believing trickle down economic policies that hadn’t helped them very much in the previous 7+ years.

While supporting the Wall St. bailout was certainly against the free-markets perspective, many of his biggest supporters during his deregulation days were on the execs getting hammered on Wall St. and saving them meant continued support. Just look at how Mr. Gramm’s current employer UBS AG managed to get themselves on the bailout list despite being a Swiss bank.

It’s true they don’t differ on many policies but McCain’s had 30 yrs to make a mark and his legacy is one of voting w/ the orthodoxy that helped us get to this point. I certainly don’t agree w/ all of Obama’s proposals but he’s certainly earned the chance do something different.

BTW, I learned none of this in HS AP economics outside the word Laissez-faire and maybe Glass-Steagall. Given 40% of GA HS students aren’t graduating, maybe we need to start teaching economics a bit earlier.

By ATL80

November 25, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

Maybe is economics courses had been required in more schools we would all have a better understanding and not be in this current crisis. It’s not soley up to the schools though. Parents need to discuss these issues at home and try to provide material that fits the child’s level.

By Drew

November 25, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

No of course not. Let’s just continue doing what we are doing. Economics… not important at all.

By Law Student

November 25, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

Dan,

The 14th Amendment does not automatically extend the Constitution to the states. For example, although the right to a grand jury is in the Constitution, not all states require it. Thus, assuming that the 14th Amendment extends all rights is improper.

By Oh My

November 25, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

Law Student Its the 5th amendment that requires a grand jury for federal charges not the 14th amendment. Do you go to that law school advertised on the back of match book covers?

By Bob

November 25, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

randolphcountyteacher—

Wow, Randolph. You sure are an angry one, aren’t you? Do they let you teach children? Has the state “certified” you?

You assume quite a bit about me, though I’ve posted very little. I guess anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot and a fool?

Did you learn that logic in a government school?

I do honestly wonder if you contend that student performance has risen along with governmental involvement and spending.

Would you like me to personally poll the sky to see if it is blue?

You may be interested to know that I am an officer of an educational investment group, and I’m fairly familiar with the educational lay of the land.

This blog isn’t an academic medium, and I don’t intend to bore everyone with the mountain stacks of studies undergirding my proposition.

You’re a teacher…you should be able to do the research and understand the data.

By Naomi

November 25, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

At one time (late 70’s - early 80’s) a course in personal and family finance was required in high schools in Georgia. My daughter took the course at her school and as a result, she is an excellent manager of money. Economics in elementary school is so irrelevant to children that it just does not stick. I know as I have taught it using all kinds of innovative activities. A course in personal finance as a junior and an economics course as seniors would be excellent addition to the curriculum. The Georgia Council on Economic Education should weigh in on this and get these courses put in the curriculum. Strike while the iron is hot, GCEE!

By randolphcountyteacher

November 25, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

Bob “officer of an educational investment group” Then get back to work!

“…I don’t intend to bore everyone with the mountain stacks of studies undergirding my proposition.”

Don’t have any evidence huh? What a weasel! I like how you internet trolls like to shout a lot of bs and when called on it try to turn the tables around. What a douche bag!

By for the record

November 25, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Law Student - you responded to Dan before I had a chance to. The idea of combing the Free Exercise clause with the Establishment clause is generally credited to Thomas Jefferson, who, last time I checked, was also credited with being a Founding Father. The idea of the phrase “Separation of church and state” is not a new one, but it has been upheld by the Supreme court over and over and over again.

Look, my clearly pitiful attempt at a humorous response to iEcon’s equally humorous (though I doubt he meant it as such) post about Democrats learning economics fell flat, but my point remains the same: neither party speaks for the majority of intelligent middle class people. I’d like the Dems to stay out of my wallet and the Republicans to stay out of my bedroom. And to whomever posted about the Republicans lowering taxes…well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn, or beachfront property in Arizona, or…well, you know what I mean.

On topic - kids need more real-life skills, including budgeting and personal economics - negative amortization, anyone? Who thought that was a good plan? This should be done in MIDDLE school. They also need to have a good foundation in understanding macro/micro to help them understand what’s going on in the world, and how to make informed decisions. That should remain the current high school course.

By for the record

November 25, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Hey “Oh My” - trying following the thread before spouting off with a pithy comment. We were talking about the 14th Amendment and Law Student used an example of somethng it didn’t cover as far as the states were concerned. Geesh.

By Bob

November 25, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

randolphcountyteacher—

“Get back to work,” you wrote.

How ironic. I stopped punching a clock a while back, Randolph. Nothing wrong with those who do, but coming from someone who gets 1/4 of a year off each year (assuming you’re really a teacher in the government school system), this is laughable. I produce so you can waste my tax dollars making kids dumb. Besides, my work with that organization is only one of a few ventures I’m involved with.

“Don’t have any evidence huh?” you wrote.

Again, did you learn that logic in a government school? You are evidence aplenty.

The proposition that students in America are shockingly poorly educated, that we are spending more than ever, and that the government is involved in the process more than ever are all facts that have been documented ad nauseum.

If this is the first time you’re facing these realities, then you need to turn in your teacher badge when you get back to the station.

You can pout all you want, I’m not going to provide a bibliography on this forum. Use the library or the internet or whatever you want to use if you really doubt the proposition.

“When called on it, try to turn the tables around,” you wrote.

Called on what? Is your position that American students are well-educated? That our spending is at a reasonable level? That our government involvement is lower than in the past?

Are you saying that the evidence to support my proposition doesn’t exist, or simply that you are ignorant of it and would like for me to point you in the right direction for verification?

You asked for an example of something the government got involved in and made worse. Education is one such example.

“Douchbag,” you wrote. Nice. I’m glad you’re charged with the instruction of children. And you wonder why so many parents are getting the hell out of government schools.

By Harmon

November 25, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

So I recently (2003) graduated from a GA HS and I know that the curriculum is pretty lax. There is plenty of room to add in a full credit of economics and a full credit of government. This would seem to be a beginning to solving both problems everybody is talking about. But that isn’t enough, we need a lot more than that. Also since I would gather that a lot of the people talking are coming from rich Atlanta area schools try having the same choices for classes in a south GA public school. It doesn’t exist. But I graduated from Ware County HS and went to GT where I found out just how bad my HS education was. Yes they need to pay teachers more but then they also have to hold them accountable for getting the student to do better. Wait a minute that works for economics too accountability. We are currently in the mess we are because too many people jumped on the chance to buy houses using ARM’s and now they can’t afford it. But they aren’t the only ones to blame, there is plenty to go around, blame government for the last 20 years. I also can’t believe the number of people on this blog that seem to believe that the economy will change in a month, 6 months, a year. Look over your economic lessons some more, it takes year more like 5 to 10 for the economy to really change. So yes we need more education in economics to understand what is going on and yes the grade schools should provide that for all the people that don’t think they need education after HS.

By Karen

November 25, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

I teach economics to seniors (the way it is through most of the state). The state standards are set up to make this a very academic survey course, covering Fundamentals, Micro, Macro, International, with a small piece of personal finance (mainly the types of unemployment, and types of taxes). I would love for this to be a more personal, applicable type class, but I have to cover the state standards and a lot of material to cover before the End-of-Course test (mine is on Dec 10, 7 school days before the end of the semester). I do my best to weave in more practical things, and include personal budget simulations and things after the EOCT. I like that some sort of Economcis is required to gradute (one of the few states that requires that, by the way),but I would like to see a slight change in the standards covered. It can continue to be a more academic based class for CP/Hon/AP, but would like to see a more practical personal finance option for students not heading to college or intending to major in business. We just don’t have enough time to get to the more practical, day-to-day stuff covering all the material we have to.

By Cranberry

November 25, 2008 5:23 PM | Link to this

I agree with you Karen. So many kids today just do not understand the basics at all. It’s embarassing. All you have to do is watch Jay Leno’s “sidewalk interviews”, and cringe at the lack of knowledge in our young people.

By luvs2teach

November 25, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

Cranberry - it’s not just today’s young people - I remember watching Carson do that segment 30 years ago with the same results.

By Tony

November 25, 2008 5:55 PM | Link to this

Go Ware County Gators!

Bob, speaking of evidence your arguments lack support, too. In all the international studies that have been conducted, one major finding is often completely ignored. That is that the US students have performed consistently over the years while other nations have risen and dropped. In fact, there are very few point differences between US and the higher ranking countries. (PISA, TIMSS, et al.) Most people interpret the results of US as mediocre simply because it gives them an excuse to bash US schools.

Truth is, US schools are doing a better job than ever before at teaching more children more content. This doesn’t make headlines or political talking points, though.

“Spending more than ever” is another claim you make. We have more kids than ever before to educate and it takes money to do that. If you look at educational spending in terms of GDP, I think you’ll see that we spend less than other countries.

If you want more real facts, I’ll be happy to provide a bibliography.

By Tony

November 25, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

Cranberry and luvs2teach - I think those shows are for entertainment and the segments are heavily edited. I certainly don’t there’s any valid conclusion that can be drawn from those comedy segments to impugn the schools.

By luvs2teach

November 25, 2008 7:10 PM | Link to this

Tony - true - my point was only that you can’t say today’s kids are any smarter or dumber than kids 30 years ago based on those segments. Realize, too, that I WAS a kid watching those segments 30 years ago, and I usually knew the answers. Now I’m a teacher, lol. Heaven help us all.

By SS teach

November 25, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

Laura & others,

Please look at the Georgia Performance Standards in middle & elementary school before posing such a leading question &/or responses that are based in lack of knowledge of the GA curriculum. I am not saying that all SS teachers teach ECON well at the middle of elemenatary levlels. HOWEVER, some of us work very hard to teach economics in the middle school. Words such as scarcity are part of the every day discourse in my classroom.

Ironically, in your article about teachers teaching out of field (on AJC.com tonight), you say it happens primarily in math & science. I beg to differ. In MANY middle schools, teachers are only teaching one SS class in addition to a full load of science, math or language arts. These teachers do not understand the curriculum in economics or anything else. Couple that with the fact that they don’t want to teach SS & you have a big problem. SS doesn’t matter until there is a problem. The big hoopla over the lousy CRCT scores is proof!!

Before anyone chastises me…..over 95% of my students passed the 6th grade SS CRCT last spring compared with 30%+/-statewide. If most MS SS teachers actually knew economics (& SS in general) AND taught the GPS then students (& scores) would be a lot better off.

By SS teach

November 25, 2008 9:57 PM | Link to this

Here is proof that is SHOULD already be taught. Whether that is happening is another quesiton.

Content Weights for GPS-Based CRCT 3rd grade: 20% 4th grade: 15% 5th grade: 15% 6th grade: 25% 7th grade: 25% 8th grade: 16%

Please go to this link for more details on ECON GPS in 3rd-8th grades. This is just a sampling from two grades. http://www.georgiastandards.org/socialstudies.aspx GPS Standards: Third Grade: SS3E1 The student will describe the four types of productive resources: a. Natural (land) b. Human (labor) c. Capital (capital goods) d. Entrepreneurship (used to create goods and services) SS3E2 The student will explain that governments provide certain types of goods and services in a market economy and pay for these through taxes and will describe services such as schools, libraries, roads, police/fire protection, and military. SS3E3 The student will give examples of interdependence and trade and will explain how voluntary exchange benefits both parties. a. Describe the interdependence of consumers and producers of goods and services. b. Describe how goods and services are allocated by price in the marketplace. c. Explain that some things are made locally, some elsewhere in the country, and some in other countries. d. Explain that most countries create their own currency for use as money. SS3E4 The student will describe the costs and benefits of personal spending and saving choices.

Sixth Grade: Sixth grade is the first year of a two year World Area Studies course. Sixth grade students study Latin America, Canada, Europe, and Australia. The goal of this two year course is to acquaint middle school students with the world in which they live. The economics domain builds on the K-5 economics; however, the focus shifts from the United States to how other countries answer the basic questions of economics.

SS6E5 The student will analyze different economic systems. a. Compare how traditional, command, and market, economies answer the economic questions of 1 -what to produce, 2-how to produce, and 3-for whom to produce. b. Explain how most countries have a mixed economy located on a continuum between pure and market and pure command. c. Compare the basic types of economic systems found in the United Kingdom, Germany, and Russia. SS6E6 The student will analyze the benefits of and barriers to voluntary trade in Europe. a. Compare and contrast different types of trade barriers such as tariffs, quotas, and embargos. b. Explain why international trade requires a system for exchanging currencies between nations. SS6E7 The student will describe factors that influence economic growth and examine their presence or absence in Europe. a. Explain the relationship between investment in human capital (education and training) and gross domestic product (GDP). b. Explain the relationship between investment in capital (factories, machinery, and technology) and gross domestic product (GDP). c. Describe the role of natural resources in a country’s economy. d. Describe the role of entrepreneurship.

By SS teach

November 25, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

The state legislature mandated several years ago that personal finance be taught in each grade. There is a GPS standard in each course to explicitly uphold this directive. Here is the standard for each of 3rd-6th grades. SS3E4 The student will describe the costs and benefits of personal spending and saving choices. SS4E2 The student will identify the elements of a personal budget and explain why personal spending and saving decisions are important. SS5E4 The student will identify the elements of a personal budget and explain why personal spending and saving decisions are important. SS6E4. The student will explain personal money management choices in terms of income, spending, credit, saving, and investing. Historical Understandings

By SS teach

November 25, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this

Are the outlined standards actually being taught? Frankly, that is the real question.

By em

November 25, 2008 11:31 PM | Link to this

I rarely disagree with Tony; however, I currently teach AP Macroeconomics and Economics and a half unit credit is not sufficient. At the high school level under the GPS, not only did the course standards increase, they are geared more towards economic theory. I attended a GPS seminar sponsored by the Georgia DOE a couple of years ago and was told that with the GPS implementation, the Economics EOCT would be more stringent and the cut scores would not be so generous. The State increased the number of units for Science, English, and Math to four each but not Social Studies. With all of this high stakes testing, I cannot fathom why a student can go through high school taking four or more units of weight lifting but only a half a unit of Economics.

By my two cents

November 26, 2008 6:54 AM | Link to this

Every college bound student should have at least two full credits in econ. to even gain admittance.

Students not pursuing a higher education will have little need. All they really need is to know how to balance a check book and make change.

By Tony

November 26, 2008 8:30 AM | Link to this

em - putting the graduation requirements in perspective is important. There seems to have always been a requirement of 4 years of English/Literature. Math and science both used to require 3 units each and SS (I believe) also called for 3 units. There seemed to be much politics surrounding the requirements, too. Both math and science were increased to 4 units in recent years. Oft cited was the misguided political call for more technical skills for the workplace. It seems that social studies requirements often got lost in the discussions because, somehow they were thought to be of lesser importance.

One of the realities of HS right now is the number of units required to graduate leave very little room for students to take additional courses, especially in the traditional 6 period day schedules. Schools using the block model have more room for students to take other courses.

As for weight lifting, I would venture that you and I would agree that affects the holy Fridays of the fall. Dare we blaspheme? You are, of course, exactly right.

By love my 4 kids

November 27, 2008 4:36 AM | Link to this

I have a few economics questions I would like to pose to the public school teachers:

Who owns the Federal Reserve? What year and under which president was it established? Which Federal Reserve chairman said that his bank was responsible for the Great Depression?

What famous American made this quote?

“under the gold standard, a free banking system stands as the protector of an economy’s stability and balanced growth… The abandonment of the gold standard made it possible for the welfare statists to use the banking system as a means to an unlimited expansion of credit… In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation.”

What is fiat currency?

What is the current total U.S. federal debt?

To hear the truth about our current economy and the failing “bailout” go to http://www.ronpaul.com/