Get Schooled

By LB

November 24, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

I agree with the teacher. The school property is not a baby sitting service. It is an educational facility. Who is responsible if a child gets injured? Certainly not the school and the tax payers. These parents need to make arrangements with their employer for flex time or find another job. Family comes first.

By Jeff

November 24, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

Ummm…. there is such a thing as riding a bus….

By Tony

November 24, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

The families with this work predicament who need childcare are usually stuck in low wage jobs where one misstep will lead to being fired. It is a symptom that goes along with poverty issues that affect communities.

Schools are not the answer to this predicament. Schools serve the purpose of teaching children not babysitting them. Schools can refer the families to DFCS for neglecting the children.

Jeff is right about riding the bus. The parent could leave as soon as the kids get aboard. If the kids are old enough, they could wait for the bus on their own. Another option is early daycare service. Our school has three daycare providers who bring the children to school.

Some schools in rural areas have started before-school care programs where parents can sign up and pay for childcare prior to the start of school. It works just like schools after-school programs. The employees who supervise the children get paid for their extra time.

Parents must understand that schools can not simply allow children to be dropped off at their whim. Children must be supervised and leaving children too early at school puts those kids in a dangerous situation.

By Not for the Teachers

November 24, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

The teacher is completely correct here, but this is not a problem for the teacher. If this is going on, it should not even “touch” the teacher. The teacher cannot prepare for learning if he/she is babysitting.

This is a problem ONLY for the administrators. The administrators themselves, period, need to be dealing with this so that the teacher can prepare for the day.

If the administrators aren’t handling this, and by law, they should be, the teacher needs to ask the social worker what to do. This should be put in the hands of the social worker, who will probably toss it back to the administrators.

NEVER should a teacher have to wonder what to do w/ kids so early in the morning.

Is there a lock on the door? Does the class have a door? That was my problem — we didn’t have doors. There was nothing to shut. I was very strict about nobody coming in until 8:00.

We had this same problem, to a disgusting degree. The doors opened at 7am. All kids were funneled into the gym - even those who came on time, later. At 7:55, an announcement was made for all teachers to go to the gym — the kids were lined up, waiting. No kids in the room until 8am, period. That was so nice. Until then, we had kids all over the property - indoor and out - who had been dumped.

HOWEVER, it got to the point that we, the teachers, were ASSIGNED morning duty — we each had several weeks a year. We were to go to the gym for before-school care EVERY day and watch the kids from 7:30 to 8:00. No teaching prep for us those days. If we wanted to get ready, we had to do it from 7 to 7:30. We got in BIG trouble if we failed to show for morning duty. BIG trouble.

Before 7, the kids were just hanging around outside. Pathetic.

I really don’t know what the answer is — A lot of people here are suggesting the bus — But did you see the teacher’s post? She said the parents are refusing to let their kids ride the bus. So, the parents look snottily down on the bus — the bus is too dangerous, or gross — But they’re ok leaving their kids in front of an unoccupied building in the dark?

I still say this is one for the social worker, period.

No teacher should have to deal with this. Shame on the administrators.

By stop

November 24, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

Let’s remember that ot every child has the option of riding the bus.

By Stacey

November 24, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

I think the parents who drop the kids off early at school instead of leaving them at the bus stop are thinking of strength in numbers. There are likely several kids in front of the school building at that time but there may only be one child at the bus stop. I’m not saying it’s right, but if you have no other option, I can understand the logic. I’m fortunate not to be in that situation but I am not so far removed that I can’t empathize with the parents who are.

By V for Vendetta

November 24, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

Stacey, you might correct to a certain extent, but I feel there’s a different motive at work here.

At my school, the real problem comes not in the morning, but in the afternoon. After school ends, there are literally dozens of students hanging around the building in various locations. They are not waiting for tutoring; they are not waiting for clubs or sports; they are not waiting for detention. They’re simply there, and there’s only one reason why:

THEY DON’T LIVE IN THE SCHOOL DISTRICT!

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, the rule is plainly clear: To go to a certain school, you must live within that school’s geographic district—end of story. The kids who are contsantly hanging around after school are not good kids whose parents are desperately trying to get them a solid education. Nope. These are the worst of the worst. The kinds of students that require extra after school patrols to make sure they’re not causing serious trouble.

We’ve complained time and time again that the situation is out of hand. After the final bell rings, there should be NO reason for them to be on the property. Technically, they CAN be escorted from the property. However, we’ve been rebuked by the administration which uses the lame excuse that they might go into a nearby neighborhood and cause trouble.

GOOD!

Maybe then they’ll get arrested and we won’t have to deal with them anymore. Long story short: one of the main reasons parents drop their kids off early and pick them up late is because the kid doesn’t live in district. I usually leave school around 5:30 (what can I say, glutton for punishment!) and there are STILL kids here three hours after the final bell. That’s ridiculous.

By Jeff

November 24, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

stop:

Actually, yes, EVERY child has the opportunity to ride the bus for the school in whose district they live.

By V for Vendetta

November 24, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

stop, Jeff is correct. Every child MUST be afforded the opportunity to ride the bus. Any child can choose not to ride the bus, but there is no place within a school’s geographic district that the buses do not serve. That is one of the reasons this problem is so infuriating to teachers.

By TheBlogger

November 24, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

This is another example of some parents leaving it up to the schools to raise their child.

The job is the parents choice. Having the child is the parents choice. Deciding to dump your child onto school grounds before the school is open should not be a choice. Take care of your own!

The same is true after school. Kids should not be hanging around school because the parents don’t want to pick them up or take care of them. All kids should have some activity planned after school and should not be wasting time on campus.

By Tony

November 24, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

Minor correction to bus riding: There are limits to who is eligible to ride the school bus. In other words, NOT every child is entitled to the opportunity to ride the bus. Students who live within 1.5 miles of the school are not necessarily entitled to ride the bus. Local school systems can make the call on this one. Our district allows students to ride the bus because we do not have sidewalks and crosswalks. Some school districts enforce this rule because it is a cost savings measure.

By cricket

November 24, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

At my school the “official” work hours for teachers are from 8-4. (not that anyone only works 8 hours of course) Instructional hours are 8:30-3:00. The BUSES start arriving at 7:50am. In the afternoon, the last bus doesn’t come to pick up students until 4pm! We are required to keep students in the our classrooms until their bus comes. We babysit for an hour everyday after school. So it is not even the parents fault. It is the school district’s. When we have a faculty meeting, it has to be held before at 7 or 7:30 or begin at 4pm.

By Private School Guy

November 24, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

I placed the blame on the parents. Would you drop your kids off at any other busniss long before they are open? then why expect anything different from the schools. This is yet another issue that is taxing the time and resources of schools. People have to change things about their lives when they have children they shoould not expect schools to do babysitting for what ever schedule. Trying to operate around the clock without the proper resources makes for a lousy business plan.

By V for Vendetta

November 24, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

This is why parents get so mad when there’s an unexpected day off of school—their babysitting gets interrupted!

By Tony

November 24, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this

V- you are so right!!!! I had two parents Friday who were very upset that students had this whole week off. They asked me, “What am I supposed to do?” I smiled and said, “Happy Thanksgiving.”

By sagittarius

November 24, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

Alot of you are suggesting riding the schoolbus is the answer. Do you have any idea what goes on at the busstop & on the bus. FIGHTING! CURSING! TOTAL DISREGARD & DISRESPECT TO OTHER CLASSMATES/PEERS.

By Single Mother who has to work

November 24, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

Are all of you teachers? What about parents who have to be at work at 7:30 and the bus does not arrive until 8:42. Come on lets get real? what is wrong with providing before school care for a fee? I know I would pay.

Yes it is wrong to impose on the teacher planning time. But the world still exsist and parents do have to work. When you factor in traffic and work distance things have to be adapted.

By sagittarius

November 24, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

Alot of you are suggesting riding the school bus, do you have any idea what is going on at the bus stops & on the school bus. FIGHTING! CURSING! DISREGARD & TOTAL DISREPECT to classmates & peers. Riding the school bus is definitely not the answer.

By Tony

November 24, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

sagittarius - you failed to mention the “innappropriate public display of affection” which goes far beyond hand holding and kissing.

By Jeff

November 24, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

Single mother:

I don’t think anyone would object to before school daycare programs that the parent pays for. Actually, I think Tony or someone else has suggested exactly that…

sagitarrius:

You may want to know your audience. I personally have vivid memories of having to literally run from the bus to my house (roughly 1/4 mile) every afternoon as fast as I could and lock both doors to avoid being beat up.

I also know that every thing you suggested ALSO happens both at school AND in real life - including churches. So your precious (dripping sarcasm) kid is GOING to be exposed to that crap anyway. Better to give them a bit of relative autonomy via the bus to learn to deal with these things on their own than to raise a kid that can’t handle anything negative.

By lulu

November 24, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

In elementary school, I was not eligible to ride the bus because I lived too close to the school. However, I could not walk to school because I would’ve had to cross 2 very busy 4-lane streets. My parents had to either risk having me hit by a car or drive me to school.

It sounds to me like the problem is that either the kids can’t ride the bus, or they would have to wait alone at the bus stop after the parents left for work. Maybe in some neighborhoods that would be okay, but I don’t think I would ever just leave my kid at home to catch the bus on his own if I had to be at work.

I don’t think the teachers should have to deal with this, though - it’s definitely a problem for the admins to solve so that the kids are taken care of in the morning and the teachers can still have their quiet prep time.

By sagittarius

November 24, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

V-vendetta (10:44 post) why would you want a child to get arrested for hanging around a school?

By GT

November 24, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

No disrespect, but as a veteran teacher and administrator, of both public and independent schools, I can tell just from the post that “Not For Teachers” is the kind of cynical, jaded, burned-out instructor that I work hard to keep out of my building. Yes, this is a problem. A major problem. But anyone who works at a school that has inculcated a sense of worth and responsibility into it’s faculty understands that attempting to “wash you hands of it” or dump it in the laps of administration or a social worker is counter-productive. Certainly, administration has a primary role in keeping this from happening. But unless everyone involved is willing to take steps to find a workable solution, a solution won’t happen. “Not For Teachers” sounds like he or she wants to say “I should only have to worry about what happens in my classroom.” That’s fine, but as long as you have that attitude, you will be unhappy and your school’s potential will be less than fully realized.

By sagittarius

November 24, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Maybe you haven’t realized that BULLYING is against the law. NO CHILD SHOULD BE SUBJECT TO TORTURE-on the bus, at the busstop nor at school. I’m enlightened you were able to make it home & lock your door but some kids are not fortunate enough to make it home, especially when you are a 6 year old being targeted by an oversized 10 year old.

By Great Teacher

November 24, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

Wow! Some of these comments make me sick! I am a teacher and I am required to be at school from 7:15-2:45 daily. Some of my students arrive before the morning bell and if I am there I allow them to come into my classroom. However, they have boundaries. They are allowed to work on any unfinished homework or silent read. If I need help with filing things, making packets or passing out graded papers I ask them to help. Have you ever thought that the only time some of the students to think they are cared about is in your classroom? I know teaching is difficult and everyone complains about it; however, you knew what you were signing up for when you started getting your degree in Education. You knew the pay would not be so great, the kids and the parents would be “bad”, and you also knew that you could be a “babysitter”. Here’s an idea stop complaining and ask your administrator for an ASP type of program for the morning. If they say no create your own study hall with in your department and take turns “babysitting”. Remember that teaching is not only giving these children the gift of a wonderful education, they are with you for 8+ hours a day 5 days a week and you just might change their lives forever.

By Ann

November 24, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

I agree with the before school care that parents pay for. With Atlanta traffice, the reality is that many parents have to leave before the bus picks up the child. I don’t think administrators have an appreciation for how much commuting times have increased over the last 5 to 10 years. Before school care should be an offering at every school, or schools should change start times to a more reasonable time.

A 9:15 middle school start time and 8:45 pick up time does not allow a parent to get to work at 8:30. And for those of you who say just leave your child to catch the bus, you would be screaming the loudest about unsupervised preteens and teens and the trouble they can get into.

By sagittarius

November 24, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

Great Teacher: WELL PUT. I think you’re beautiful & have a solid gold heart.

By Jeff

November 24, 2008 1:49 PM | Link to this

sagitarrius:

Like most other things in life, legal or not, bullying happens and there is no way short of a literal Big Brother-level government to stop it.

Did I forget to mention that most times my tormentors were those very 4+ yrs older kids??

I developed a very fast sprint, to the point that even now I can chase down a car in a parking lot if the need arises. (Granted, something like 2 decades later if I have to USE this ability, I WILL pay for it the next day!!)

Many things are against the law, this nation currently being Big Brother Lite and all, but that doesn’t mean your kid will never encounter them.

Better to learn young, as I did, how to deal with them rather than grow up to be just another victim waiting on the government to save them.

By Mother of 3

November 24, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

Looks like “Great Teacher” is the only grown-up herr. Very good comments.

By V for Vendetta

November 24, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

Sagittarius: Torture? Give me a break.

GT and Great Teacher: A lot of the attitudes on this matter stem from the specific grade levels taught and the environment in which the particular teacher works. It’s very easy to sit on high and cast judgements down on teachers who are possibly dealing with situations that others couldn’t even imagine in their districts. In my opinion, it’s a matter of boundaries. I arrive at work early in the morning and I leave two to three hours after the final bell. That’s not bragging, mind you. That’s what the job requires. I don’t need recognition or a pat on the back for going above and beyond. Similarly, I don’t need some of the speed bumps which prevent me from operating at my highest level.

Sure, there are perfectly justifiable reasons for a student to arrive at school early: meetings, tutoring, and various extra-curricular activities. However, arriving early at school and just sitting around seems to be getting away from the school’s purported reason for existence. Some have suggested creating some type of program to collect the many students who arrive early and/or stay late. But such a program would not be succesful at a school where literally dozens of students arrive early and stay late.

So, GT, I absolutely DO believe that the administration should take the lead on such an issue and alleviate the burden on teachers. As I’m sure you already know, most teachers do a great deal more around a school than just work in the classroom. To even imply that a teacher is being unreasonable or self centered because he/she doesn’t want unsupervised students hanging around his/her room is frankly insulting.

Perhaps one of you would like to give up your prep time in the morning to monitor the proposed before school babysitting service. I would, but I have to prepare for the day, tutor students, meet with parents, and/or perform my own morning duties. How selfish of me.

By Tony

November 24, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

Jeff, your last post has an excellent concluding remark. Too many people have become dependent upon the government to take care of everything in their lives. People are losing the ability to take care of themselves because they have become so accustomed to being cared for. Every new problem brings a call from people for the government to provide a solution. The current economic bailout, the Katrina crisis, the so-called education crisis, high gas prices, food shortages, …..

One of the things that made America great was the attitude of self-reliance. Now we have a new breed of government-dependence. This is rather scary. What did that famous liberal John F Kennedy say? “Ask not…

By PHJ

November 24, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Great teacher, thank you. A little compassion goes a long way. You truly deserve to be called teacher and I’ll bet you have no trouble with disrespectful students. Before school daycare seems to be the best solution, but you are a jewell for caring.

By sagittarius

November 24, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

It’s ironic the 2 guys on the blog think it’s ok to be bullied. Does the females in your life approved of such behavior? How did this blog become a politlcal discusssion, Tony? By the way, you may think I’m dropping kids off early at school- (NOT) I don’t have any kids.

By Great Teacher

November 24, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

V for Vendetta:

I do agree with you about the attitudes; please don’t take my sharing of what I do in my classroom as boasting. They were to be taken as a matter of suggestion. I would gladly give up my prep time to as you call it baby-sit the students, even if that required me to get to school even earlier and stay later. I would even give up my Saturday to prepare for the week ahead. I am willing to do what ever it takes in my school and in my district.

There are parents out there that can not change their schedules around to get there children to school at the “proper” time. Let’s try and be mindful of them and help them out just a bit. What happens when the parents can’t afford “normal” day care for their children…. what do they do then?

Since before school daycare looks like the best solution, let’s start working on a proposal and get it into action. Words on this blog don’t go too far! This is turning more and more into the Vent!

By Steven

November 24, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this

I am 24 years old, but I can still vaguely recall some memories from my elementary years. At my school, kids who were dropped off early by their parents were taken to the cafeteria. The kids would be grouped by which class they were in, and there were one or two teachers who would be responsible for “babysitting” until the teachers were ready for the day.

Is this solution outdated?

By Jeff

November 24, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

sagitarrius:

When did I say bullying was OK????

I simply said that like it or not, it happens.

And I hold that since it will happen regardless, it is better for kids to learn how to deal with it. Mommy and Daddy won’t always be there to rescue their precious little darling child. Buses are great for this, as the driver can respond to anything truly catastrophic but otherwise the kid is on their own.

By Lee

November 24, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

Okay, let me get this straight; it’s perfectly okay for a student to walk 1-1.5 miles to school, but it’s not okay to have them wait outside for a few minutes before school lets in. That don’t make sense…

Great Teacher - what a refreshing, common sense breath of fresh air you are. Traits that are far too rare in our schools and on this blog.

By catlady

November 24, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

Our problem got a lot better after we had an adult attacked outside the school at 6:45 am, but we still have “parents” who drop their kids off. We used to let them in, but no more. They wait outside however long their parents choose to let them, until 7:30. When we were letting them in we had kids dropped off (and parents went back to bed) at 6:30. I’d like to get a police officer to speak to the parents and warn them if I were in charge. I’d even call DFACS on the worst offenders. These kids are unsupervised. Anyone can snatch them, if so inclined.

Here is a novel idea, “parents”: Hire a sitter if you have to leave too early, or use the services of a day care center. Your kids, your responsibility.

By Gimme me a break

November 24, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

Great Teacher…..

Good comments and all but there is one small problem. You are advocating taking on more issues and most schools can barely, according to NCLB, do the job that they were built for. It is also TOTALLY unreasonable to pile on more additional duties outside the contractual agreement on a teacher. Have you ever wondered why our profession has such a problem retaining teachers?

By Joyce

November 24, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

I had to deal with this issue after school when I taught in a private school. There was no bus, so many students carpooled with other students. Many times students had to wait for their ride’s extracurricular to finish before going home. A group of students would congregate at the lockers outside my classroom as well as some of the other teachers’ rooms in my department. The situation was brought to the attention of the administration, and they forbade the students from “hanging out” in the halls after school. They could go to the library if they were waiting for a ride. In these situations in the mornings, what about neighbors or relatives to make sure the child got to the bus stop? Failing that, I agree that parents need to make their own arrangements for child care before school.

By Great Teacher

November 24, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Gimme me a break:

First off let me start by saying that NCLB (No Child Left Behind) is a complete JOKE (in my opinion).

Maybe you’re just burned out as a teacher and should look into a new profession (good luck in this economy). As most teaches who leave the profession are burned out.

Like I said before you (and the other teachers) knew what you were getting into once you started taking your education classes at the University.

At my title one school we don’t seem to have a problem keeping teachers… I guess we are a little more caring than others.

If every teacher had a little compassion for the students and their situations then maybe we would not have such a large turn over rate! Get a clue and stop complaining.

By jim d

November 24, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

I say let the little rapscallions stand in the cold and rain—-that’ll learn em.

By sagittarius

November 24, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

Some of you on this blog don’t have any EMPATHY for single parents.

By Mil Mom

November 24, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

It was not too long ago I was in a Gwinnet County public school. I was one of the ‘early’ students, and sometimes a late one also. I did not ride a bus, because I lived in that 1.5 mile grey area and would often times walk to school early or walk home late for several reasons: 1- to escape an abusive parent, 2 in summer I would wait about a hour after school let out to walk home because it was so freakin hot outside, then to carry a 40 some odd pound bookbag. Our school allowd students in the ‘common area’ aka cafeteria only. Usually one either the principal assit, or a coach would stay in there. Students could study, eat breakfast, or quietly talk, sleep, do whatever until the bell rang. If things got outta hand whoever was there (usally only one) watching sometimes a couple hundred teens, could hadle the situation, usually threating an afterschool detention, or what not. This was no big deal. It was the same in middle and elementary school, there never seem to be any major problems. Many of you suggest paying for care, there are places that offer such services, however I know my family couldn’t afford such a thing, we were lucky to get A new pair of shoes each school year. My dad did the best he could for his kids (he was not the abusive parrent). he left for work at 4am and got home after 5pm just to take care of all of us. I would venture a guess that many of the parents who drop their kids off early have no other option, school should be a safe place for children. Its is sad to see the lack of compassion from people especially with Thanksgiving just a couple of days away. Maybe some of us who think that this is problem should offer to help a needy neighbor out, or volenteer to ‘baby sit’ in a common area for their local school. Perhaps get a local businesses to donate money for a before school program. Stop complaining and perhaps someone could come up with viable solutions to this problem.

By Great Teacher

November 24, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

Mil Mom

You are AWSOME! Hey People you should listen to her!

By Jeff

November 24, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

Mil mom:

There have been two perfectly viable solutions offered:

Buses

Parent-paid-for before school daycare.

That you and others don’t want to subject your precious darling little child to either and instead think the State (via the school) should handle it speaks volumes.

By jim d

November 24, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

Perhaps we should just request they be put down to eliminate any undue suffering.

Maybe even have the parents arrested for abuse and the children taken away and raised with your tax dollars.

Whatta think guy’s would it be less expensive and more productive to just open the doors a couple of minutes earlier?

By Gimme me a break

November 24, 2008 3:44 PM | Link to this

Great Teacher….

You come across as one of the “get schooled” trolls that love to frequent this site. You do know what an ad hominem attack is don’t you?

By catlady

November 24, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Well, I think business owners need to come in early and let those of us who want to come in and mess with their stuff (not buy anything) come in early for our convenience.

Parents have to make sacrifices sometimes to take care of their children. Before school care costs less than 5 dollars a day at a center. You can also enlist the help of neighbors in similar situations. Some schools provide earlycare if you pay. And there is always the school bus. In our area the buses pick up long before people have to go to work. At our school our early kids are mostly kids who don’t “want” to ride the bus or their parents don’t “want” to have to get them up early enough to catch the bus. A few of them are BD kids whose parents cannot wait to get rid of them in the morning.

I have been a poor single parent, working 2 jobs and going to school full time. My job, however, was to PARENT. To provide for my children in all ways, including supervising them. Too many people have too many excuses as to why they “can’t” provide responsible parenting. I am tired of it.

Our school babysits for 30 minutes a day before school, and 30 minutes after school, for free. That is enough.

One thing we have done recently is that any kid who is not picked up after 30 minutes goes to aftercare, and the parent has to pay. We have many fewer whose parents cannot get here on time. We also have (finally) begun to give a sandwich lunch to those who have charged 5 meals without paying. There were terrible forecasts for years that we would have a hundred kids “suffering” if we did not continue to charge hundreds of dollars of lunches. What we have found out is that after a sandwich or two, parents “find” the money to pay the charges.

Sometimes you have to provide a good reason for people to do the right thing. You shape behavior with appropriate consequences.

By Agree with Jeff

November 24, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

“That you and others don’t want to subject your precious darling little child to either and instead think the State (via the school) should handle it speaks volumes.”

It sure does. These people are typical of the “let someone else do everything for me.” They need to get a d@mn clue and take care of their own little darlings. Personally I’m real tired as a teacher/taxpayer of all of the unnecessary baggage that people are sending to school with their children.

By Come on

November 24, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

I don’t think Mil Mom was complaining she was merely stating in her opinion to what should be done. She was also sharing her reasoning for going to school early and staying late.

I don’t think that you have come up with a solution to no busses, little money and here is one..the safety of our children.

I guess you are not a parent or a teacher!

By jim d

November 24, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

we must recognise also the difficulty that parents have when they’re going to work. For 15 minutes they’re not going to employ someone to look after the kids.

C’mon guy’s get real.

By For States rights

November 24, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Single Mother…maybe you should have thought things through more completely before you started breeding.

By jim d

November 24, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

I think many forget that teachers and education in general are considered a public service.

Y’all knew this going in. how many times on this blog have I read teachers comments about they do their job for the love of the children, not the money? Some of y’all are making yourselves out to be bold face liars today.

By Mil Mom

November 24, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

Jeff: 1-I did not even mention riding a bus, as I said in my situation there was no bus. 2- some parents cannot afford parent paid for child care, since perhaps you seem to be doing so well you could donate a couple of dollars to a less fortunate family, so the could attend day care with you little darlings. 3-I never said I wouldn’d allow my child to do either, I simply said some families are not alble to afford child careservices4-i think your lack of empathy for less fortunate families speaks volumes.

By Jeff

November 24, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Come On:

No buses: WALK. Alternatively, the parent can make whatever arrangements work best for them such that the kid is not on school property before s/he is supposed to be. (Be it friend/neighbor/family/daycare/bus/whatever.)

No sidewalks/busy roads are simply excuses for poor parenting. Teach your kid to walk along the side of a busy road safely. It could come in handy later. (Such as the time or two I’ve personally ran out of gas on 75 in South GA.) Heck, as a teenager I was known to ride my bike along US 41 in Bartow when the need arose (pre-car). Yes, it wasn’t exactly a PLEASANT experience, but I was safe and sane about it and here I sit.

Kids are in a LOT less actual danger than helicopter parents such as some on this board would like to admit, and what danger they ARE actually in, the sooner they are taught to handle it, the better.

By Dad of 2 teenagers

November 24, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

This question reminded me of the time when I took my family to Japan for several months. My sons then were only in elementary school. In Japan, kids were allowed to be in the school building before schools started. They weren’t closely supervised (meaning teachers weren’t necessarily present in the same rooms as kids), but kids took care of their class pets, watered gardens, or just played with their friends.

My kids fondly remember the freedom and the sense of “ownership” of their school - it was just as much their place as teachers, and therefore they were allowed to be in the building when it is open.

It’s too bad that in our schools, we don’t trust kids enough. It’s also too bad that in the US, we must always hold teachers/administrators accountable for supervising kids. It would be so much nicer if kids are allowed in the buildings as they are public properties. However, parents should be aware that schools’ responsibility to the children only during the school hours.

By Tonya C.

November 24, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

Leave ‘em outside. Seriously, sacrifice has to be made, and it is WHOLELY unfair to place the responsibility of such on already stressed and strained teachers? Parents are going to need to take the hit on this, and find a way to make it happen.

Teaching is not a calling; it is a profession. And as Jim D. has said so many times before, teachers will never get the respect they desire and deserve by treating it like anything else. Continually doing things outside of your contractual responsibilities for no additional pay is akin to being an underpaid volunteer, further diminishing your hourly worth.

Teachers already pay for their own supplies and continuing education. Unless they get grants, they come out-of-pocket for upgrading their skills and supplemental teaching materials. Grow a backbone and tell the parents the options available to them and the penalties should they choose not to exercise them.

Before you ask, my husband is a first-year teacher. I’ve already told him he has five years to either get in administration or find something to do in private-industry. He puts up with way too much crap for the money…

By Great Teacher

November 24, 2008 4:10 PM | Link to this

On the contrary Gimme me a break this is the first blog I have ever responded to. I should apologise if you think that my comments were belittling in any way. All of this on here is really a matter of opinion and if don’t care for mine then don’t read them.

By jim d

November 24, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

All of this love and compassion— then we wonder why so many kids drop out of school?

I am truly disheartened with the attitudes of some of the regular bloggers on this one.

By zoemol

November 24, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

We have this issue at our school, kids are now funneled to the cafeteria in the morning and people stand on duty in the other areas of the building not letting kids in. Now that it is cold out, fewer kids stand outside and instead take advantage of the warm air in the cafeteria.

By tsk tsk jim d

November 24, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

Jim d

Please identify the bold faced liars. Just because one is a public servant doesn’t mean that the public can abuse them or pile on work/duties that aren’t covered in the contractual agreement. Half of the complaints you read here wouldn’t be here if we had a union. I taught in New York for 5 years and believe me what kids do before or after a teachers work hours aren’t a concern, at least for the teacher. Btw jim d what do you do, besides coming across as an a*******hat on ajc, for a living?

By Jeff

November 24, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Mil mom:

It isn’t empathy I lack at all.

Instead, I hold simply that care of children is not the government’s responsibility, but that of the parent.

Government does too much by even operating schools to begin with - but that is a discussion for another day.

By Tonya C.

November 24, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

By the way, I have a nine-year-old and three-year-old. I have had the same issues. Difference is that I found a babysitter to take care of the issue. It would be selfish and unfair to plop my kid down on someone else against their wishes.

By luvs2teach

November 24, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Some common sense please…

Many of you are reading a lack of “compassion” or “empathy” among the teachers willing to say “no, this is not OK” - some of you are accusing the nay-sayers of being burnt-out - you may be right. We’re burnt out on being doormats for the irresponsible or unthinking or selfish among you.

What I don’t understand is how dropping a kid off early, where they may or may not have ANY supervision is preferable to having them catch the bus? Our school does not let them until until a certain time, so they are wandering around outside - even last week when it was COLD. We do let them in a half hour before homeroom starts, and they stay in the cafeteria with a teacher who gets paid for the duty - your tax dollars at work, my friends.

Parents, do you REALLY want your child’s teacher babysitting other students, who may or may not live in district, when that teacher should be preparing for YOUR child’s education? Grading their work? Giving them help? Meeting with you? Responding to your e-mails? These are the things not getting done.

Great Teacher - I’m guessing, perhaps incorrectly, that you don’t have a family of your own yet - would you be willing to let your children go without your presence so you could stay with a child after school, whose parents never picked him up at the agreed upon time? I was put in that dilemma, and after the second incident of my kids waiting for me at home alone (my husband works nights), I quit staying after to help students. I also disagree with your statement that we knew what we were getting into - that’s a bald-faced lie that keeps getting perpetrated - like parenting, you never know what it’s like until you do it. I thought I knew because I had volunteered in my kids’ schools and subbed…nope, not a clue. I’m glad you can do what you do (I’m guessing elementary school - it doesn’t work that well at the middle level), but I prefer to extend myself for my students in other ways.

That this is a problem is testament to the fact that parts of our society have really broken down - we have too many single parents, too much transiency, not enough people knowing their neighbors, and not enough closeness with extended families. V is right, too - many of the early drop-offs in my school are out of district - too much transiency - the kids move mid-year but the parents don’t want to disrupt their lives too much -understandingly, but how about waiting until summer then? When I was a kid, someone in my neighborhood could stay with a friend until it was time to go to the bus stop together. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc, were around to lend a hand - even older cousins could help out. It’s not like that anymore - we expect the state to take care of us.

As a parent, I had my youngest in a before care facility - they would take him to school. The peace of mind was worth the money.

By luvs2teach

November 24, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

Whatta think guy’s would it be less expensive and more productive to just open the doors a couple of minutes earlier?

jim d - at what point do we stop, though? My school already opens a half hour before homeroom starts (and the time teachers have to report) - should it be an hour? What about 2 hours? At what point do we stop?

By luvs2teach

November 24, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

I think many forget that teachers and education in general are considered a public service.

jim d -you’re on a roll, today - it’s a contracted public service - these are kids being dropped off outside of contracted hours - there may not be any teachers there! If the teachers are there, they are trying to prepare for their contracted work of education, not babysitting.

By Great Teacher

November 24, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach:

I have 3 children ages from 4-1 (my sisters I adopted them). I am fortunate enough to have grandparents who watch the boys while I am at work.And yes, I do pay them!

And Yes, I do teach the little ones!

By luvs2teach

November 24, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

great teacher - I’m guessing your grandparents don’t charge you extra if you’re late picking them up, lol. Still, at what point to you say no to your professional children in order to say yes to your personal children?

Everyone’s different - I, for one, don’t multi-task well (actually, according to recent brain-research, no one does). If I have kids in my room, I’m dealing with the kids - it doesn’t matter what they’re doing. I can’t call a parent because I don’t want the kids to overhear - I can’t meet with one either. I do all my grading at home because I’m actually teaching while kids are in the room - that’s the nature of the 8th grade science beast.

By Tired of elementary teachers

November 24, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

Great Teacher says:

“And Yes, I do teach the little ones!”

Then please teach them how to read! I’m getting sick and tired of dealing with all of the middle school kids who have elementary reading and math scores. What the hell are you early education teachers doing beside playing house?

By Ronda

November 24, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this

This is common sense - find a neighbor that you can drop your child off at or talk to the school about a before school program. If neither works, then you need to change your hours at work.

If the child were to get hurt on school property those same parents would be the first to sue you.

By art

November 24, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this

Simple and right answer to kids getting to school too early or too late: Call DFACS. End of story.

By Katy Perkins

November 24, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

I actually know a woman that lives in a very small town (less than 1000 residents) - you know, the kind of town where no one locks their doors at night - who lost custody of her child (almost 11 years old) because she left at home in the mornings by himself. He never missed the bus (though grandparents live about 1000 feet up the street) and made it to school every time. Teacher told and mother lost custody. This should be a warning to parents that leave their children anywhere attended.

By Katy Perkins

November 24, 2008 6:54 PM | Link to this

Typo: I mean unattended.

By Time for a Change in Ed

November 24, 2008 7:19 PM | Link to this

Our elementary school flexed the hours of the clinic aide and another assistant to begin work (supervising the early arrivals) at 6:45, since parents didn’t heed the 7:15 opening time. (Students who arrived by bus stayed on the bus unless the driver had to pick up a second load.) Breakfast was served beginning at 7:15, so teachers rotated morning duty supervising those kids.

What can happen to kids dropped off early? A few years ago, the start of the school day was delayed due to tornado warnings (I believe). Luckily, one of the teachers had decided to come in very early and came in from her portable when she heard the weather report. She found a very young child (K/1st) who’d been dropped off early huddled, sobbing, at the door of the car rider entrance. Believe me that administration let parents know unequivocally that students would NOT be the school’s responsibility prior to the start time and that this was the reason for the policy.

That said, I have arrived at my high school at 6:30 am and found students in the hall. I don’t think I’ve ever left at night without some students still there. That’s part of the nature of high school, of course, but I do feel sorry for the students at school from 6:30 am to the evening…

By Old School

November 24, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this

There’s simply no one right answer to this one. Every child or parent or family must do what works for them. For some that’s an early drop off and for others it’s the bus or carpool.

I arrive at my hs each morning between 6:15 and 6:30. The doors are open when I arrive and often there are a few students already on campus. I’ve seen students curled up on the floor sleeping and another completing her grooming in the main hall where there are outlets. Some students hang around after school for no apparent reason while others have siblings or friends at various practices and must wait on a ride home.

I have had students stop by my lab and ask if they could come in to complete homework, sleep, watch CNN, or just sit. With 3 doors to my lab, I make certain all doors are unlocked and the 2 that join other labs remain open. I stay behind my desk and keep the phone at hand. I’m not scared, just cautiously wise.

I don’t post here much anymore because it seems to have become a lot of harsh finger pointing and blame laying. My morale is low enough from being told repeatedly ad nauseum what to teach and how to teach it and not being allowed to just teach and I don’t need to have anonymous bloggers aiming their shotgun opinions in my direction. There’s a whole lot of sniping and blaming here but precious few helpful suggestions or creative ideas that just might start fixing some of the myriad problems in our schools.

We are all at fault. I’m a parent, a grandparent, a teacher, a taxpayer, and an optimist. I believe we can improve our Georgia schools if we start with ourselves.

By luvs2teach

November 24, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

Dad of 2 teenagers - I have family who teach in Japan, and the differences are astounding, but they are also cultural. I’m sure you know Japanese students also help clean their schools - we’re not allowed to have ours wipe the table down after lunch, sweep the floor, clean gum off the tables, or anything I remember doing as a kid to either help the teacher or as a consequence for some minor misbehavior. I’m appalled at the attitude of some of my kids when we’re cleaning up aftr a lab - “Isn’t that the janitor’s job?” they’ll ask in a condescending way.

The Japanese idea of allowing students access and thereby ownership would never fly, and it wouldn’t be due to teachers or admin - it would be district risk management worried about a lawsuit.

By pay up

November 24, 2008 7:36 PM | Link to this

If the parents want a babysitter they need to pay for that service. Having said that…those who think schools should be open for the kids, you need to keep in mind some “things” happen when these kids aren’t supervised. Some examples of these “things” that have happened at my school (these actually happened DURING school hours!) sex in the bathrooms, sex in the woods, sex in the portable classrooms, sex in the stadium, sex in the locker rooms, sex in unlocked classrooms; vandalism (markers, nailpolish and paint) in the hallway, vandalism in the bathrooms; theft in classrooms and cafeteria. This doesn’t include the fights and other fun stuff that kids do when they get a case of the stupids. Now, for those who would love to work (unpaid) early, late, and on weekends…please feel free to leave your contact information on this blog, you are exactly the kind of schmuck every administrator is looking to hire. Please don’t label yourself as “great teacher” unless you can actually teach; anyone can hold hands and sing happy songs to little children.

By Old School

November 24, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this

I should have added that, while early morning duty is not in my job description, I am there and the early students know it. They also know they can come to me if they need an adult or they can go to the cafeteria. It is open early.

Are we really just mouthing the words “It takes a village…” or do we really mean them? Even the most curmudgeonly teachers I known throughout my 35 years would step up and protect a child. Our school has the overall atmosphere of a safe haven. It could be just what some children need.

By luvs2teach

November 24, 2008 8:05 PM | Link to this

Old School - I think when people say it, they mean someone ELSE’s village, lol.

Seriously, if I saw one of mine outside on a cold morning, I’d let them come in - I couldn’t, in good conscience, leave them out there. I have stayed late - very late - with kids waiting for rides. My problem is that people do this EVERYDAY, and there aren’t people there EVERYDAY who could do this (example - the days of the week when we have faculty meetings or a teacher arriving early for a parent conference). It’s unfair of the parents to expect “something for nothing” and to leave their kids to count on someone else’s good graces. It’s unfair to the kids, too.

By V for Vendetta

November 24, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this

Everyone: This isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution, not by any stretch of the imagination. However, I think some people are portraying this as a very black and white issue when it’s nothing of the kind.

At some schools, because of age/grade level and/or cultural and socioeconomic values, the idea of allowing students into the school a little early and letting them stay a little late is a sort of “no harm, no foul” way of thinking. It might work absolutely fine, and, if it does, that’s fantastic for both the parents and the community at large. But that’s not always the case with most schools, not by a long shot. Many of the students are loud, disruptive, disrespectful, and sometimes destructive—after school more so than before school when they’re a little more subdued. I’ve seen fights after school, drug deals, and vandalism. The teachers and administrators on duty are overwhelmed by the problem, and they continually employ the VOLUNTEER services of other teachers to patrol the school after the final bell rings. The students left loitering the grounds are almost uniformly the worst discipline offenders in the school.

So please, don’t be so quick to start pointing fingers and declaring some of us “burned out” and lacking a sense of sympathy for these poor, unfortunate parents (which is what more than a few of you meant when you said empathy). Sure, I’ll admit that my viewpoint is jaded by the types of kids who come in early and stay late—precisely the reason I feel strongly on the matter. If it’s different at your school, you’re lucky and I envy you. But be warned: When a school starts allowing more freedom than the population can handle, especially of that population is dramatically shifting, only negative things can result. Trust me, I teach at one of the “good” schools in metro Atlanta, the kind of school that people would be utterly shocked if I mentioned the name in conjunction with some of the daily transgressions to which I’m privy.

Again, you’re lucky if your school’s community is such that you can provide this sort of service and feel good about it. We should all be so fortunate.

By What can parents do?

November 24, 2008 8:50 PM | Link to this

“What happens when the parents can’t afford “normal” day care for their children…. what do they do then?”

…Answer - Perhaps they could stop having babies. Just a thought.

By deidre_NC

November 24, 2008 8:58 PM | Link to this

i have been fortunate to live in a rural area where the teachers have no problem ‘watching’ kids when they have to get dropped off early. the school also has only 120 kids from pre-k to seniors..so its not the same. when i was in high school we had to stay in the lobby until a certain time. i understand that teachers are not babysitters and should not be made to be. but the attitudes here amaze me. some of you people are so mean spirited. someday you may eat your words and attitudes. karma can be a nasty beeatch.

By Tonya C.

November 24, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

deidre_NC ,

How is it mean-spirited to ask parents to take care of their children? How is it mean-spirited for already overworked teachers to say NO MORE? I swear, people need to stop confusing teaching with joining the Priesthood or becoming a nun.

It is a profession, and they would like the public to acknowledge it as such. By the way, I received an e-mail today that due to budget cuts the state of Georgia is dropping the liability insurance for teachers. Even more reason to stick to what’s in your contract, b/c as a teacher you could end up severely screwed if you don’t.

By Tony

November 24, 2008 10:08 PM | Link to this

Here again today we have had a blog topic that is not related to student learning but seems to have hit some buttons of emotion. When teachers and administrators stand their ground about the start time of school we are called “mean-spirited”. When we don’t stand our ground we are called “spineless”. Based on the reactions of the people today, it seems that many people are so self-absorbed that even their own kids don’t matter to them.

Several solutions were offered today - school based before school care, private day care, and friends/family to care for children before the start of school. The people who say “but I can’t afford it” should re-evaluate their priorities and think about what’s more important - their children or their job.

It is very insulting to all us educators to have people put demands upon us like the ones discussed today. Since I work in this business everyday I can tell you that I see 100% of our faculty and staff give above and beyond the call of duty for the children in our school. Do you all expect the plumber to take care of your leaks for free? Do you expect the doctor to see you for free? Do you just show up at the doctor’s office? Do you just leave your child at the dentist unattended? Why should educators be dumped on they way some of you think they should?

jim d says we are public servants and was disappointed in some of our responses today. Yes, we are public servants engaged to teach children during a set time. Many of us go beyond that time with extra tutoring for those needing it. Many of us spend extra hours organizing lessons and labs. Many of us work after-school coaching athletics. Public servant does not translate as door mat. We have a job to do that requires planning and preparation.

When a school posts its hours of operation, that is it. There should be no ifs, ands or buts. If the school sees the need for providing care before school and charges a nominal fee, then take advantage of that and gladly pay for the peace of mind that comes with knowing your child will be properly cared for.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 4:03 AM | Link to this

Tony,

Sorry to disappoint, but did I say teachers shouldn’t be PAID? I don’t think so.

I will say this though. I’m damn glad off duty police officers, fire fighters, yes and even doctors, don’t hold the same attitude I’ve seen demonstrated by teachers on this blog. Y’all often complain about not being recognised as professionals—ever wonder why?

By Dave

November 25, 2008 4:41 AM | Link to this

When I was a kid you could not go into the school building until the morning bell rang. If you did, you would be sent to the admin office.

By A real teacher

November 25, 2008 6:42 AM | Link to this

Jim d

I have ALWAYS been recognized as a professional. Besides trolling on the internet what do you do for a living?

By Good Morning

November 25, 2008 6:57 AM | Link to this

What is the problem with putting the kids in the cafeteria in the mornings? Yeah, so maybe two teachers have to do morning duty instead of lunch duty, but it beats being held responsible for the students eleven hours a day. Or a kid having to be left outside in the freezing cold. You know, not every kid has the option of riding the bus. Some of our students are actually brought in from around the county and they come in at various times. Some kids ride the MARTA, and for those of you who know how unpredictable the schedule is, you know sometimes it is “get there too early” or “get there late.”

I will say that I actually enjoy when the students come into my classroom early. I’m not pandering to the board, but they are always there to ask questions, do their homework, use the computers, sleep, or read silently. I’ve never had a problem with kids leaving me alone in the AM when I’m behind and trying to plan or grade papers. Kids can be more respectful than you realize. They will also respect if you keep the door locked on those mornings where you need an extra cup of coffee before you can start the day ;) I can understand though how it would be difficult to have younger students in the classroom without proper supervision. If I get to work early and there are already students there, chances are my task list will not get finished.

How about parent volunteers coming into the school to watch kids in the AM or after school? Get your PTSA involved and maybe they can work out a program where teachers don’t have to “babysit” and parents can get after school care.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 7:06 AM | Link to this

A real,

As a business owner—my job is to support the government—and I do a hell of a good job of it.

Let me offer my felicitation for your recognition, you obviously are not one of the whiners complaining about not being recognised as a professional educator. Perhaps you could share your secret with your peers.

By Angela D.

November 25, 2008 7:58 AM | Link to this

What part of babysitting makes a teacher “professional”? I teach at the high school level, so, I don’t have to babysit, per se, but, I can tell you that the kids who are dumped off at 6:00 am or the ones who are there until 5:00 pm are the ones who don’t live in the cluster, and are typically the ones who vandalize the school.

When I started teaching, I had a 6 year old, and I made arrangements for him such that he was never dropped off because school hours or waiting in the cold or rain. That was my job as a parent. It burns me up that so many people have such a sense of entitlement; and they think that the world owes them something. Teachers do not get paid to babysit your kids; and they shouldn’t be burdened with this while they’re trying to plan for their day! As it stands now, there is no morning duty for teachers to watch kids, so, this would be one more thing expected for teachers to do. Get real, people!

And jim d - you’re just argumentative. I don’t even think you believe half of what you say. I think you’re just a lonely, old man who doesn’t have any real friends, so, you spend your day being a butthead on blogs. And, I didn’t know that blog-trolling was a “business”!

By Good Parent

November 25, 2008 8:00 AM | Link to this

If your child is old enough to drop off in front of the school alone, then he/she is old enough to wait in a WARM house alone until the bus comes. If that isn’t possible, maybe he/she could go to a friend’s or neighbor’s house until it’s time to catch the bus. If I were the teacher, I would write to the parent and TELL them NOT to drop their child off before the assigned time, or they will be reported to child services for child neglect.

By V for Vendetta

November 25, 2008 8:17 AM | Link to this

Whoa, hold on there a second JimD. What do you mean by your crack about off duty policemen, firemen, and doctors? Are you saying that if there were a crime, a fire, and/or a medical emergency, these professionals would leap in to save the day?

You’re right.

But I don’t consider babysitting any type of learning emergency, do you? And, for the sake of argument, lets say there WAS a “learning emergency.” Guess what? I see those every day. Every single day I see kids at school, in the store, at the park, at the movies, who are the children of incompetent, pathetic pieces of social excrement. A policeman, a fireman, and a doctor would have the luck of being in a black and white situation: Do the right thing. Well, it’s not so simple for us, is it? There are no rules as to who can have children. There is no parental Hippocratic oath. And kids generally don’t get taken away unless their lives are in danger.

So what would you have us do? As others have said, where do we draw the line? When the punks and the misfits are the ones who show up early and stay late, why should we have to put up with them? If we are such bad public servants (I ABHOR that term), then try dropping off a few dozen kids at your local fire station or police station, or leave a whole bunch of teenagers at the doctor’s office. See how that works.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this

Angela,

I certainly hope that none of our professional teachers ever need an off duty cop. (a true professional)

As for my Friends? Not to worry!

By A real teacher

November 25, 2008 8:23 AM | Link to this

Jim d

For starters I would tell my peers not to be bothered with internet trolls such as yourself. A cursory check of this blog reveals you to be a frequent guest. I guess that your business runs itself huh?

By jim d

November 25, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

Oh my V,

Here’s a bit of food for thought.

According to the NEA’s (the nations most well known teachers organization) code of ethics PRINCIPLE I (Commitment to the Student) clearly states

“The educator strives to help each student realize his or her potential as a worthy and effective member of society. The educator therefore works to stimulate the spirit of inquiry, the acquisition of knowledge and understanding, and the thoughtful formulation of worthy goals. In fulfillment of the obligation to the student, the educator—”

Item #4 — “Shall make reasonable effort to protect the student from conditions harmful to learning or to health and safety.”

I would say opening a door to allow a child in out of inclement weather falls under a reasonable effort to protect students health and safety. Wouldn’t you?

By Old School

November 25, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

jimdear, please amend your statement to eliminate the blanket you toss over all teachers. That’s the kind of shotgun thinking that accomplishes nothing and harms more than helps.

There are many, many fine professional teachers whose very nature is to go above and beyond on a regular basis. There are many, many so-so teachers who will also do so grudgingly. There are many, many people who should never have even considered teaching.

If some of us complain, there is usually a pretty valid reason for that complaint. I dare say if every parent spent a week or two as a full-time teacher in his or her child’s class, it would be an eye-opening experience. Even I realize that my daughters had much going on in their lives that I was never privy to. It is the same for every kid out there. As soon as they are out of our sight, they often become different people.

I’m not asking for pats on the back or hugs. I just want those broad brushes to be used judiciously and for us to recognize that there are some really good things happening in our schools and that by working together we can start fixing the bad things.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 8:40 AM | Link to this

Probibly better than your classroom does, Areal. BTW, who’s minding the store now?

By jim d

November 25, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this

A real,

One question.

Which of us are paid with public funds and which of us contribute to those funds more?

By jim d

November 25, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

The bottom line is 90% of “educators” that you see today are sorry and have no business in the classroom. With the upcoming Obamanation I don’t expect things to get any better.

By Frustrated Parent

November 25, 2008 8:49 AM | Link to this

Our child began middle school this year (6th grade). My husband and I have to be at work no later than 7:30. My child is at an age where she is too young to stay home alone or walk to the bus stop alone which is 4 blocks away (the transportation director told me the bus could not stop any closer to my home). We are not allowed to bring our child to school before 8:00. Before school care was very hard to find in my area, however I was lucky enough to have been referred to a great facility that has before and after school care. The reality is, we parents are on our on to make sure our children are kept safe while we try and earn a living. The schools are not interested and will not do it for us. We’ve got to tap into a network of other caring parents and before and after school providers.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

Old school

I’m afraid I’m guilty as charged with using a broad brush, much like SOME teachers do when referring to parents in general.

I vow work on improving.

I really do appreciate there are SOME really good things happening in our schools and that SOME teachers are indeed dedicated to their profession to the point they even act like professionals.

However, it has been MY experience* that MANY teachers become overly defensive of their profession at the slightest drop of the hat. I have further noted (via observation) that most teachers when afforded an opportunity to improve their occupation, refuse to get off their duffs and do anything that would help earn the status that the profession truly deserves. I find this very disturbing!

By jim d

November 25, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this

To the A$$ hole troll that posted 8:48,

I get in enough hot water on this blog by myself. I do not need your help so please refrain from posting as me.

By V for Vendetta

November 25, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

JimD: Look, we can all have fun mastering the use of edit-copy-paste, but that doesn’t really prove a whole lot. In my opinion, the real question would be why is that parent dropping their kid off in inclement weather in the first place? I would never even consider leaving my kid outside in inclement weather, and I would go through every possible option to find before school care rather than place that burden on the school and teachers. Here’s the point you seem to be missing: By allowing kids into the building or classrooms and consequently making us responsible for them, my ability to do my job at the highest level is being compromised. It affects my time planning, it affects my time tutoring, it affects my time meeting with counselors and parents, and it affects my time performing the morning duties I am already asked to do by the administration. I’m sorry, but I fail to see where in all of that I am being the least bit selfish.

Yes, you’re edit-copy-psating skills are very impressive, but if you read those statements from another perspective they mean very different things.

By Teacher

November 25, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

jim d - The big difference is, most of the teachers are also parents, so, we understand both perspectives. Most parents aren’t teachers - so, it chaps our a*******e$ when you act like you know what we do on a day to day basis! I get defensive when my professionalism is questioned because of the amount of time and energy I devote to my career.

And, to answer your questions - yes, my salary is paid through public funds, but, that doesn’t give you the right to dictate everything I do. If I needed an off-duty cop to help me in an emergency situation - yes, I would expect him/her to do so. But, dropping your kid off early EVERYDAY does not constitute an emergency. And, who’s minding the store? I am. My students are completing a project and don’t need to have me standing over them for the entire class period. Who’s minding your store? And, we cannot get streaming video at school, so, we can’t see your proof of having friends on youtube.

Happy Thanksgiving!

By jim d

November 25, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

V

I touched a nerve didn’t I? I still say that you and TOO many teachers are acting like crybabies over such a simple issue.

By luvs2teach

November 25, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

jim d - you are being particulalry prickly today - having fun? It’s not really in the holiday spirit of giving thanks, but that’s JMHO.

You still haven’t answered my and V’s basic question - if parents are dropping their kids off early, and it’s negatively impacting our ability to do the job we were hired for and paid by public funds for doing, how is that a good thing? How is that ok? At what point to we say stop?

My school already opens a half hour early, and provides paid staff - at my tax dollars expense (since I live in my district and my school’s attendance zone). We can do that, but we had to cut back on foreign language education.

I’m frustrated and defensive because I feel like I see the BIG picture that many of the naysayers don’t. I’ve said it many times - I was a parent FIRST; I had a job in the REAL WORLD; I thought I knew what I was getting into, but I had no clue. You complain about Obama - this sense of entitlement that many parents feel is just an extension of that, don’t you think?

By jim d

November 25, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

V,

“if you read those statements from another perspective they mean very different things?”

You’re kiddin right?

You actually find another meaning to: “In fulfillment of the obligation to the student, the educator Shall make reasonable effort to protect the student from conditions harmful to learning or to health and safety

I’m afraid we will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I Gotta go with the NEA on this one.

By luvs2teach

November 25, 2008 10:46 AM | Link to this

reasonable effort

Define reasonable, jim - 1 hour before school starts? Two? A 24 hour a day nanny-state?

Oh, wait a minute - you said that’s NOT what you want your taxdollars going for…you can’t have it both ways.

In answer to your question about contributing…since my husband and I also own our own business, I think we contribute plenty - my teaching salary and then some, in a good year.

By V for Vendetta

November 25, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

JimD: Nah, not really a nerve. I’m just frustrated that you and others can’t see the big picture on this one. Let me simplify as much as I possibly can:

Don’t mind: students coming early for help, tutoring, or a specifically academic purpose; a designated area where students can WORK by themselves before school; students training for club/varsity sports before or after school; students arriving early for community service projects and the like.

Do mind: a place where students can hang out, sleep or generally be penned in like barnyard animals; students milling about outside the school; students milling about INSIDE the school with no academic purpose; students being disruptive; students vandalizing school property; students fornicating on school property; students fighting on school property; students doing or dealing drugs on school property; students disrupting the learning of others who have come in early for academic support or assistance; students leaving trash in the hallway outside classrooms; etc.

Which list looks longer to you? Hence my attitude on the subject.

By Teacher

November 25, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

jim d reminds me of those students (usually lower level kids) who hone in on a technicality when they’re losing a “battle”!

“You didn’t say that I couldn’t touch him”, you said not to touch *her”.

By luvs2teach

November 25, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this

V - very well-defined! I’m pretty sure the majority of the teachers posting yesterday would agree with your breakdown of what’s ok and what’s not (well, the elementary teachers might be freaked out by the kids having sex on campus, but it sure happens at the middle school level - I can vouch for that..shudder, yuck).

Old School - I’m with you about the attitude shift on the blog. I haven’t been posting as much either. Part of it is because I’m busy, and part of it is that it’s the same teacher-bashing over and over again, and I’m tired of defending myself. Oh, sure, sometimes a blog get me riled up enough to write one of my novellas, lol, but overall, some people just will never “get it” - they have their mind set. I’m not sure if it’s a combination of some teacher hatred remaining from their youth, teacher-hatred remaining from their viariously living through their kids, or just a simple misunderstanding of the fact that their middle class school experience as a student or parent is vastly different than what some of us see on a daily basis at urban or rural schools with high poverty, low-education levels. The poster WFC used to say that he wondered how a kid from a high school dropout single-mother, was going to compete with his kids being raised by two college-educated parents - it’s a valid question; now multiply it by thousands - that’s public education.

jim d - Some economists did a study and found abput 10% of people would steal if the opportunity presented itself. I’m a strong believer in the 10% rule - ten percent of any given profession are immoral, incompetent or both. That includes doctors, cops, and firefighters, too! Don’t believe me? Read the papers! but, that means 90% of most people are better than that, and that includes teachers. Cut us some slack - Happy Thanksgiving.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

V,

I’m confident that you are aware that the term reasonable effort is a term incapable of a precise definition and will vary depending on the context in which it is used. It is based upon a standard of reasonableness, which is a subjective test of what a reasonable person would do in the individual circumstance, taking all factors into account. Personally i believe a reasonable person would open the door to a child rather than force them to stand in the cold and get sick. But hey that is JMHO.

BTW Teach, I’m sure you’ll be glad to know, I’ve been working for the past 5 hours.

By luvs2teach

November 25, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this

jim d - I agree that, yes, a reasonable person would likely open the door to a child, but don’t you think it’s unreasonable of a parent to leave the child in the cold in the first place and simply hope that someone reasonable comes along? IMO, it’s not just unreasonable but also unresponsible.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Luv’s

Agreed, No one has to pass an intelligence test to have kids. But does that mean the children must pay for their parents ignorance?

We are talking about children that have little control of what happens in this instance. Or as an earlier poster pointed out, are attempting to escape from a home situation.

The humanatarian in me says ignoring their basic needs is to set them up for future failure. IMHO teachers should be interested in nuturing the physical aspects of their students as much so as their minds. I know I find it difficult to focus mentally when one is struggling physically. Just because a parent may be unreasonable and unresponsible is no justification for other adults, who impact a childs life, to act in kind.

By jim d

November 25, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

BTW luv,

We’ve had a couple of jim d’s blogging today.

Since you are aware of the taxes your family pays let me share a bit with you.

Here’s a partial list of how I support the government.

941’s—940’s

State and federal income taxes

State by state sales tax,

County by county sales tax

Various and sundry Splost’s

Business license fees (per state)

Professional license fee’s (per state)

Performance bonds (per state / county)

Real estate taxes

Personal property taxes

Motel taxes are made up of roughly 43% of the cost of rooms that i rent

Highway tolls

Ad valorem taxes and tag fees on a fleet of vehicles

Fuel taxes on fuel used by my fleet

Permit fees

50% of my phone bills is attributed to state and local taxes

40% of my air fares go to taxes

36% of the cost of tires for my vehicles is tax

Just a little over 25% of my utility bills are taxes

And after all of that—-every time I purchase a bottle of scotch, better than 72% of the cost goes to paying taxes.

By luvs2teach

November 25, 2008 5:36 PM | Link to this

lol, jim d - thank goodness the bulk of what we do is in state and doesn’t require too much overnight travel - and I’m with you on that bottle of scotch (which we can’t buy on a Sunday no matter how much in taxes we’d be willing to pay, but that’s an issue for another day and blog).

I’m not without a heart, but my goodness, we have to say stop at some point - we set the schools up for failures with these unrealistic missions. We can’t save the world, and we can’t save people he!!bent on destroying their lives from themselves. Some of these same people who would drop their kids off early and unsupervised are the same who would sue if something would happen - they would look at it like a winning lottery ticket.

By jim d

November 26, 2008 7:15 AM | Link to this

again we disagree luv,

We aren’t talking about saving the world. we are talking about saving one child at a time.

I don’t wish to get all preachy here but let me share a little passage i work to remember in instances such as we have been discussing. It comes from matthew 25:45. “Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.”

By catlady

November 26, 2008 8:05 AM | Link to this

jim, Jesus also talks about providing for yourself (and by extension, for your family).

I can tell you we are not talking about “one child at a time”. If my school opened the doors and provided free care for early dropoffs, at the parents’ convenience, we’d be “saving” at least 60 kids a day for an hour or so at a whack. What I have also seen is that frequently these early arrival kids are among the poorly behaved. Not bad enough for special bus service right to their door (as sp ed kids get), but in trouble a lot at school. So we are not talking about one or two children who will come in and sit quietly. We are talking about dozens, many of whom (due to parental neglect or whatever) arrive ready to rumble. Some are even brought to school on days when there is no school—I have seen it happen! The parents “didn’t know” there was no school. There were probably a few there this morning. (One time it was a school board member who dropped his 5 year old off in front of a darkened school at 6:45)

You want to come in to your business and provide a service at no cost? That is okay—your choice. But childcare has a cost. And many of the costs have already been shifted onto the schools as it is. I am unwilling to continue to add to the list of “extras” the school is expected to provide.

Change of topic: regarding that Buckhead mama who went dumpster diving for “her kid’s” project. Telling parts of the story: SHE brought the project to school, SHE had glued the missing part on, she stated that her son did not care about the project (he’s too busy playing video games) but SHE cared enough to try to order school employees around and then SHE climbed in a dumpster! And we are to believe it is HER CHILD’S project???All those statements indicate he did not do the project, so was undeserving of the grade. Mama, on the other hand, gets a grade of F for not allowing her kid to grow up and do his own work. Will she try out for the football team for him as well? Good grief! This mama, by her actions, should not be allowed to roam unsupervised around that school.

By jim d

November 26, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this

Cat,

Romans 14:12 provides the answer.

By catlady

November 26, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

Thanks for the reference, jim. And if that applies to teachers, neighbors, and other adults, it even more applies to parents—that they will have to account for their actions on behalf of their most precious gifts.

By jim d

November 26, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this

you are quite welcome cat,

But then this brings us to the opening lines of one of my favorite prayers.

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change; courage to change the things I can; and wisdom to know the difference.

So far 2 out of 3 ain’t bad. :)

By catlady

November 26, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

2 out of three ain’t bad? You sound like Meatloaf, jim. But Amen and amen. Happy Thanksgiving to you and your family, and to those of the other posters out there.

By luvs2teach

November 26, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

jim d - looks like catlady said what I was going to say, lol. It’s really not just one - it’s many. As I said, my school does open a half hour early, and we pay some teachers to babysit for that time (as well as the PE teachers, paid, also offering intramurals, and many teachers offering tutoring or clubs, unpaid). My question is, why isn’t that enough? Why do we still have kids being dropped off an HOUR early or more (and this is at a MS where the days is already 7.5 hours long for the students)? At what point do we say, enough is enough? This really became a problem for me when we had to drop a foreign language, yet could still fund the free babysitting. My child, and others, lost out - couldn’t take FL in 7th grade, and so couldn’t get HS credit for the FL class. Our tax dollars at work, indeed.

They say teachers spend the first ten years trying to fix the system, the second ten playing within the system, and the last ten saving for the grandkids to go to private school. I’m not even out of the first ten yet, and I’m telling my husband that the grandkids will be going the private route!

By jim d

November 26, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

Whats a meatloaf?

WAIT!!

It’s All Coming Back To Me Now

By catlady

November 26, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Ah, jim, you’re a bat outa h3ll! :)

Luvs, until our administrators decided to keep the door locked until a half hour before school starts, we had children dropped off an hour and a half before school starts. Now we have parents LINED UP to drop off about that early, but most wait till 15 or 20 minutes before we open the doors). What kills me is that they let these kids out without proper clothes—shorts and sometimes flip flops on chilly mornings. Don’t they have good sense? These are mostly middle class kids whose parents don’t want to parent. More evidence, IMHO.

BTW, teachers are REQUIRED to provide the free half hour of child care before school each day, for no pay. We could use the planning time, as we have only 25 minutes a day during the school day. And with the increasing demands of the school lunch line, teachers are lucky to have 15 minutes to eat. Such is the life of an elementary teacher.

By luvs2teach

November 26, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

cat - I don’t envy elementary school teachers AT ALL! I know I couldn’t do it.

I guess our kids technically have an hour before school starts that they can be in the building - the supervised half hour I mentioned either in the cafeteria, gym, or with a teacher, and then a half hour before school actually starts - technically our homeroom time, so we have to be on duty at our doors - we can’t meet with parents, call parents, or tutor during that time. We’re certainly not teaching - I’m writing passes to the media center, monitoring kids at their lockers, that kind of thing. That doesn’t bother me as much because the kids are dropped off by the busses at the start of that. It used to be 15 minutes longer - 45 minutes of do-nothing time - that was a problem.

Have a great Thanksgiving!

By jim d

November 26, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this

Cat,

And “you took the words right out of my mouth”