Get Schooled

By LR

November 7, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

It seems like when I took AP classes 10 years ago, receiving college credit was contingent on getting a high enough score on the AP exam for that class — the content of which was not at the discretion of any particular teacher or school system.

As long as that remains the case, I see no reason why public colleges should not be compelled to accept AP credit. At the same time, they should also be a part of the process for deciding what goes on the AP exam and what is considered a high enough score for credit purposes

By Robby

November 7, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

In the spirit of President Elect Obama’s redistributive ideology I think the GPA’s of hard working, studious, bright students should be redistributed to the slackers so we can “spread” some smarts around.

By jim d

November 7, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

Should AP credits be guaranteed

I don’t think so. Key word being, guaranteed

I do believe that AP Exam grades could be a useful tool when making admissions decisions. But as for credit, placement or both? That decision should be left up to the individual school and be something a student would have to consider prior to making a choice on where to attend college. ie; will I recieve credit for the AP classes I have taken?

By Vicki

November 7, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

Robby - I am laughing so hard I’m crying.

By V for Vendetta

November 7, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

Where I went to high school, the AP classes were very rigorous, and, as LR pointed out, the content of the AP exams reflects what SHOULD have been learned; so, long story short, I don’t see why the colleges should have any problem taking the kids. The money reason is pretty greedy, in my opinion.

By Spread the Wealthy Grades

November 7, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

My spouse did exactly that last week. How do you get teenagers to understand wealth redistribution? You bring it down to their reality.

He redistributed the grades in his AP class. Students were given their actual grades in red. The green grade was the redistributed grades. All As had 10 points taken away from their grades and given to the bottom students. As he explained to the class, the A grade students were doing well in the class and should be able to maintain a grade of B with the new grading method. The lower scoring students needed help passing the class.

Of course, he really gave all students their true Red grades as he explained later in class.

An interesting but telling result of his experiment was that the As said they would study less for the next test if the best they could get was a B and the lower grade students also said they would study less if they could get another 10 points without any effort.

By LB

November 7, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

I remember back in the stone age when I attended college and high school they would offer clept tests for certain classes. You would still have to pay to take the exam. If you failed you could either pay again to take the exam or pay to take the class. The college was never out any money. However, it would speed things up for students who wanted to get on with a career.

Robby, I couldn’t agree more. This spread the wealth thing needs to be nipped in the bud before it even begins to be brought to the table. What a joke.

By Elaine

November 7, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

I agree with Jim D. Every college has it’s own admission requirements and selection process and degree plans. Each school can/should decide what, if anything, it wants to do with AP scores. I definitely agree that they are a “useful tool” in decision making, as Jim D put it.

For those outside education, AP is not the “holy grail” it’s touted to be. In fact, some of us on the inside consider it a racket. It’s created and SOLD by “The College Board,” the same people who bring us the SAT. AP courses are a product package they sell—the required teacher training/certification, the paltry materials, and the tests. Oftentimes as an AP instructor, it’s an absolute guessing game trying to prep for the darn test, and very expensive for the school system to purchase extra materials (books, maps, music, films) for thorough preparation. The tests are not nearly as quantitative/standards-based as the TCB touts them to be and the general public believes.

And trust me, it’s all about that test. The only reason parents sign up their children for these classes is for the potential $$$ savings on college tuition (and bragging rights on the tennis court). And with more and more of these “courses” being written/sold by TCB, there’s more and more pressure to offer them and allow students to take them.

In the early days of AP, there were very strict selction processes in place, only admitting the most dedicated, advanced students into AP high school courses. Because honestly, it takes a pretty test-savvy kid to finesse those tests. (In some respect, they’re almost game-like.) Also, back then, parents had to pay the test fee. School systems foot that bill now. Also now, we can’t deny AP to any child—any child can enroll in an AP class. But when junior/sweet precious doesn’t make a 3 or higher on the test, it’s the teacher’s fault. So, we have some parents/policy-makers who demean teachers for “teaching to the test,” yet we have others pushing and praising us to offer canned classes to our best and brightest that are nothing more than test preparation. All the while we’re sending scads of tax dollars to TCB for training/materials/testing that most educators know is not really all that great. (According to wikipedia, a 2008 AP test cost $84 per student, per test.)
We’re stuck playing along, however, because schools are judged from the outside by how many AP’s they offer (U.S. News, for example) and the scores their children earn.

Back when I was in the classroom, I advised all parents who asked: an honors-level course taught by a seasoned, knowledgable teacher is a much more rigorous and truly college-preparatory experience than an AP class. And take an AP class for what it is, a packaged product sold by a company that may or may not carry weight with the higher learning institution of your choice.

And with respect to my colleagues who taught AP courses, many of us did strive to make them valuable, relevant experience while still prepping for the test. Good teachers can accomplish quite a lot. But it is a herculean task with the hoops TCB wants you to jump through and the lack of relevant, affordable materials.

Side note: In my un-scientific opinion, the foreign language and History tests seem to be a little more valid than the English/Language Arts tests.

By Lisa B.

November 7, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

After taking AP classes I took CLEP tests to test out of college classes. In all, I tested out of 7 college classes, which was a big help financially. I was able to complete my degree in just under three years. My finals exams didn’t exempt me from the college courses. I had to pay extra to take and pass the CLEP exams. This was in the mid-1980’s, and I am not sure how it works now. My 9th grade son is taking one AP class this year; his first, so we don’t yet know the details.

By Catherine

November 7, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

Most incoming freshmen at Georgia Tech have AP credit. Some have enough AP credit that they are technically sophomores. But, their AP classes do not prepare them for the rigorous Tech curriculum their freshmen year, and many freshmen are on the verge of failing classes in the middle of their first semester. Why? They were used to passing their AP classes with A’s and B’s without any real study effort. 10% of the incoming freshmen report studying <10 hours/week. 30% of the incoming freshmen report studying <20 hours/week.

Some administrators at Georgia Tech are reevaluating AP credit, and looking at peer institutions and how much credit they award for grades. MIT only awards credit for a score of 5 on the AP exam for some classes (like Calculus). Students are not as prepared as they once were for college, AP credit or not.

By LB

November 7, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

Who is eligable to take AP? I’m not sure how to ask what I am wanting to know but here is the situation.

An 11th grader turns 19 and is withdrawn from school. Does Georgia have a law that states children past a certain age can no longer attend school? Does this child qualify to take APs? I have met this child and s/he was in school just to play and horse around and was very disruptive. Now this child is depressed because s/he got withdrawn. Is there a recourse for this child and are these tests available to children who fall into this category?

By Jason

November 7, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

“As he explained to the class, the A grade students were doing well in the class and should be able to maintain a grade of B with the new grading method. The lower scoring students needed help passing the class.”

Did he point out that some of the A grade students cheated? That some of them were given preference because the teacher was good friends with their parents? That some them spent all their studying and were miserable because of it?

How about the lower scoring students? Did he mention that some of them had to work jobs after school and had less time to study than other students? That a few of the A students stole their study guides when they weren’t looking? That some of them didn’t measure their—and others’—worth solely on grades, and were satisfied with their less-than-stellar scores?

No? Maybe he should have.

By Meme

November 7, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

If the colleges had a test to give for the AP classes and the students passed, I say, give them credit.

However, as a long time educator, I know that the AP classes have been dumbed down just like everything else.

By Spread the Wealthy Grades

November 7, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

Interesting “excuses” Jason. Not true, but interesting that you would offer these reasons for how and why grades are given and received. The grades were objectively earned and graded. Did you blame or claim your school accomplishments on these factors?

As in life, each student received a grade based on effort and ability. The excuses you attribute to the lower scoring students such as jobs, actually apply more in this situation to those who scored higher.

The bottom line may be motivation and to some extent ability. As more schools push AP classes, students are taking these courses who are not qualified to take a class at this level. The push may be from the school to have a higher enrollment in AP courses, the student or parent desire to take these courses, college admission criteria and other factors.

By HB

November 7, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

And I certainly hope that the teacher redistributing grades wasn’t implying that his scale came anywhere close to tax changes being proposed by our President elect. A better example would be first assuming that all A, B, and Cs already give back a couple of points of what they earned. Under the proposed tax plan, A students would give up another point (not 10!!!), and Bs and Cs would get probably half a point to a point back — a little extra breathing room, but certainly not anything that would bring equalize their scores with the A students. There was also a bonus question on the test that students had the opprtunity to answer if they earned As (sort of like investments, interest on savings, better business opprtunities that come with more $), and most answered correctly earning an extra 3 points, so they still came out ahead even after paying one extra point. D and F students didn’t have enough points to pay in to begin with and would neither pay nor receive more under the new plan. And this is nothing new — it’s the grading scale the school had in the late 90s when all students were prospering more than they have under the temporary grade cuts for the A-students instituted by the current principal. The incoming principal wants to let that plan expire rather than extend it.

By Spread the Wealthy Grades

November 7, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

A good analogy HB until you take into account the percent of total taxes paid by each grade category.

When the Ds and Fs aren’t paying any taxes but instead are receiving earned income tax credits and tax stimulus rebate checks (from the current president as well) how is that not a redistribution already from the As and Bs?

Are the As paying a significant % of taxes (points) far out of proportion to what they earn? Are the Ds and Fs receiving an unearned redistribution from the higher grade earners?

What happens to the motivation from both ends of the spectrum?

By DB

November 7, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Jason, the fact that you attribute success to cheating is more indicative of the way you go through life than anything else you could have said. Future employers, take note. Obviously not all of the achievers are perfect — but not all of the sub-achievers are oppressed either.

To the subject: It’s already up to each individual college as to whether or not it accepts AP for credit, so I’m not sure what’s changing, here. My son discovered a wide difference in how his AP classes were accepted at the different schools he was accepted to. He had 5’s on all six of his exams, but the credit he received varied from 9 hours at one school up to 27 hours at another school. At the school with 9 hours of credit, he received waivers on introductory classes — i.e., he didn’t get college hours for them, but he didn’t have to waste time taking them and could jump straight into more demanding classes. At other schools, he received up to 6 credit hours for each exam, depending on scores. Some schools had a sliding scale: If you got a four, you only got to waive an intro class, but if you got a 5, you got to waive it AND received 3 hours credit. Again, it depending on the AP exam — some exams, you could waive with a 3. The increasing rigor of the university, interestingly enough, often resulted in less credit for AP exams.

As long at the test given nationally is a reasonable reflection of what is expected to be mastered at a college level, and the student does well on the test, then I don’t see a problem.

BTW, at our (private) school, the parents have to pay for each AP exam a student takes, so not every school has to pay for the student.

By Jason

November 7, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this

“Not true, but interesting that you would offer these reasons for how and why grades are given and received.”

I was actually responding to your husband’s use of grades as a metaphor for money more than anything else. His analogy is flawed. Money can be stolen; it can be inherited; it can be had but not appreciated. To say that the more money you possess, the harder worker you are or the greater utility you add to society is bogus.

You of all people should understand what I mean, since you’re married to a teacher. Based on salary alone, teachers qualify as those ignorant, lazy, poor people I’ve been hearing so much about lately who want Uncle Sam to take care of them.

Does that sum up your husband? Did he become a teacher because he was too stupid and/or irresponsible to work on Wall Street or found a company? Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t. Either way, you sound like a hypocrite.

By Jason

November 7, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

“Jason, the fact that you attribute success to cheating is more indicative of the way you go through life than anything else you could have said.”

The fact that you define success solely by how much money—for which grades were being used as a metaphor—someone has is indicative of the way you go through life.

Drug dealers make more than doctors. Paris Hilton makes more than all nine Supreme Court Justices combined. Do you honestly want to use monetary wealth as the sole metric for achievement?

By Spread the Wealthy Grades

November 7, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

Jason your biases and anger are amazing.

Actually my spouse left a high level corporte position to become a teacher. He teaches in a low socioeconomic school with little parent support and many challenges. He works many extra hours to help the students academically and in extra curricular activities.

Was this a sacrific for our family? Yes, we lose income and time that coud be devoted to our family. However, it is a sacrifice we make and a challenge I take on as a small business owner to help our family contribute to the betterment of others. I have to make up the salary loss that these greedy and lazy teachers as you put it earn working 60 hours or more per week in my spouse’s case salary they earn.

Also, in my business I have been fortunate to work all over the world with countries in many different systems. The ones that are the easiest to work with (best workers, most responsive, best product) are the capitalist societies. The most difficult are those that were formerly communist. Initiative is missing and a payment is expected that exceeds the work product with often the work not even being performed.

I don’t want our country to head down that road. I also don’t want the every man for himself attitude that prevails in these countries with little consideration given to cooperation or pride in a job well done.

By Elaine

November 7, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

LB:

The State of Georgia only makes school attendance mandatory for children aged 6-16. I also understood the law to be that children can be enrolled in public school until they reach the age of 20, not 19 as your acquaintance has experienced. (Read the code here: http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/_documents/doe/legalservices/160-5-1-.28.pdf) Most school systems also provide “alternative” schools for children who do not attend regular schools. I’m GUESSING that there’s more to the story than you know.

Students over 16 can/are removed from school for many reasons—inattendance and behavior being the two biggest ones. Also there is a difference between being taken off the rolls (withdrawn) and being “kicked out” (expelled). It’s important for your acquaintance to know which it is that’s happened to him/her. If he/she’s simply withdrawn for inattendance, he/she can re-enroll and attend until his/her 20th birthday. If he/she’s been expelled, he/she will need to persue education in an “alternative” school in his/her school system of residence and is legally entitled to that education until he/she turns 20 (unless expulsion was for severe infractions).

About AP: anyone can pay and take an AP test. The College Board has ways for students who do not attend a school that offers AP to take a test. The instructions are here: http://www.collegeboard.com/student/testing/ap/reg.html

However, without a high school diploma, this student in question will not be accepted to the vast majority of colleges. Trying to get college credit through AP testing is moot if he/she doesn’t have a high school diploma. First on the agenda needs to be re-enrollment somewhere or GED. Then SAT and/or AP testing may assist in college acceptance.

By jim d

November 7, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this

Interesting.

Advanced Placement (AP®) College Curriculum Study Conducted by epic

By DB

November 7, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

The fact that you define success solely by how much money—for which grades were being used as a metaphor—someone has is indicative of the way you go through life.

ROFL! Obama can’t take money away from those who don’t have it — so I can only assume that when he is referring to ‘share the wealth’, he isn’t referring to his own wealth (of which is is a miserably chintzy charity giver), but mine. I don’t notice anyone trying to take my kids, my husband or my college education — which are my primary indicators of success. The only thing left is my money, that I earn, that wsan’t inherited or trust-funded or fueled by illegal drug sales. :-)

By Lee

November 7, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this

On the flip side of the coin, SHOULD a student who scores high enough on an AP exam exempt that class from college?

For example, I would say that the student who is entering into the engineering program at Tech would be well advised not to exempt the college level math course. That course is a building block for a good percentage of his classes to come.

On the other hand, if he could exempt a class that is not in his core area of study, (History?), I would say go for it.

By Jason

November 7, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

“Actually my spouse left a high level corporte position to become a teacher.”

So why does he have a problem with Obama’s tax re-distribution, seeing as how it would benefit teachers?

By jim d

November 7, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

I don’t know Lee,

According to the College Board’s first ever audit of high school Advanced Placement courses conducted a year ago, most of these high school classes did meet college preparation standards.

Concerned that some high schools were slapping the AP label on inappropriate classes—in one case, a high school student submitted transcripts to the University of Virginia showing he had taken “AP Study Hall”—the College Board, which administers the AP tests, analyzed 134,000 course syllabuses from 14,383 schools worldwide. More than two thirds of those syllabuses, or 67 percent, were immediately approved by the 839 college and university professors hired to conduct the review.

By LB

November 7, 2008 1:45 PM | Link to this

Thank you Elaine.

By Elaine

November 7, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

Lee,

You make a very good point. Especially considering that some colleges are offerring exemption from, but not credit for entry level courses…So in simpler terms, AP testing could mean I take Chem II-VI instead of Chem I-V for my four required units of chemistry in my pharmacy degree? I think I’d want the foundation, if it was my area of study. A closer look at a particular degree plan will show if the AP experience is strategically time/cost advantageous. And most 15-17 year-olds don’t really know exactly what school/degree they want. Heck, most 20 year-olds still don’t!?!

That’s why I always advised my students/parents to make the choice based on which senior course is the best match for the child’s learning/experience. There is no “get out of freshman year free” card. These AP classes/tests aren’t the same thing as college. They have their merits, but it’s not the same thing.

By jim d

November 7, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

From what I’ve read today re; subject.

It appears most of AP classes coming on line are required to be audited and approved by the college board. Those that are renewing every year get a review.

So for all practical purposes it would appear there are some quality controls in place to assure these classes meet some type of standard approved by the colleges.

Can any of you AP teachers out there enlighten us? As to the process and controls in place?

By jim d

November 7, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

AND THEN you see things like this

By Spread the Wealthy Grades

November 7, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

There you go Jason. You exemplify what I was talking about in socialist and formerly communist countries that I was was talking about…if the handout is there why would you develop a work ethic or strive to do better.

You see it as my husband should be supportive of wealth redistribution because he would benefit. His position is why should anyone receive something he/she did not earn. It might be a personally benefiting situation for him, but it it not good for our country as a whole.

By Lynn

November 7, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

I agree with Elaine and Lee. The exemption of a course that is important to your major may not make much sense.

I have told my senior to consider taking the courses he has exempted through AP scores. At the very least, he has been exposed to the material and it might help with that first semester transition to college level courses and the need for good grades to keep the Hope.

By HB

November 7, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

“When the Ds and Fs aren’t paying any taxes but instead are receiving earned income tax credits and tax stimulus rebate checks (from the current president as well) how is that not a redistribution already from the As and Bs?

Are the As paying a significant % of taxes (points) far out of proportion to what they earn? Are the Ds and Fs receiving an unearned redistribution from the higher grade earners?”

Fair questions, Spreadthewealth, and worthy of debate. I think if your spouse had set up a reasonable analogy questioning what fair proportions are (is it the same % for everyone or a sliding scale and if the latter, how much sliding should there be?) and the perceived pros and cons of rebate checks (is it simply giving unearned cash or giving a leg up to help put people in a better position to earn more money themselves later and in turn, pay more taxes?), then a good lesson could have been learned. If this was meant to be a lesson about proposed tax changes, though, I am disgusted that a teacher would present such a ridiculous one-sided model that goes along with a lot of the nastier misleading anti-Obama rhetoric that came out in the last few weeks (if it’s a lesson in a history class about theories of Marxism, then I think it could use some tweaking, but is probably reasonable). There is plenty to debate and criticize about the actual proposed tax changes from both candidates, and students should be encouraged to study the actual plans (or reasonable analogies) and question them. Students should be taught to look carefully at what politicians are saying and not blindly accept either that Obama’s proposed tax changes will save society or lead us into a communist state.

By HB

November 7, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Re: exempting courses important to your major

Actually, I think those may be the best to exempt if you have high test scores. My college would only give credit for a 4 or 5 in most subjects, and only for a 5 in a few, and then it was only a semester credit, not the full year. If a student can score that high, they probably are ready to skip that first semester of U.S. history or basic calculus and move on to the next thing. Plus, usually what students want to major in is what they are most interest in/have the most talent for — why be bored rehashing old material?

By Spread the Wealthy Grades

November 7, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this

I agree HB that the example could have been expanded, but it was a short example of one policy. He teaches about all kinds of tax policies in countries around the world without a bias for or against. He alway encourages full study and independent conclusions.

I wish as a country we could have the debate you proposed for this class. Without regard for personal loss or benefit, what is fair? How do we want to structure our tax system to support the society we want to achive? That would be the debate to have. Unfortunately, I fear it will never happen.

I think back to Ross Perot’s online Town Hall meeting and voting concept as one that could do much to bring about real discussion. His other platforms were a little odd though.

By zoemol

November 7, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

When I took AP in high school, we were told colleges only accept 4s and 5s, that seems to have changed, many now accept 3s.

I teach AP and while I do not “teach to the test” I do work on the various Free Response Questions and how they should be answered. I like using them after I finish a unit to ensure students actually understood the main learning objectives of the unit. They are a great summary tool.

For the Audit- in Georgia, Gifted FTE funds can be earned for gifted students in AP classes, provided the teacher has taken the week long summer training AND a required PLU class about teaching smart kids. With the audit in place, teachers now have to submit a copy of a syllabus to prove to TCB that the class is indeed AP worthy. We have several people in our system that are no longer teaching AP because their syllabi were never approved. I don’t think it is a bad thing since many of those teachers were not teaching AP level classes anyway. I realized this when their AP students transferred into my classes and went from As to Cs or worse. AP is a levelling field, it gives colleges a way to judge the difficuly of one school against another. They know AP has standards and if no one at one school in a system is passing and everyone at another school is, what is going on at the first school if the demographics are the same?

Also, AP gives teachers a way to put rigor in the course without getting in trouble with the administration or the parents.

As far as grade inflation, in the AP class I taught last year, only 20% of my students had As as final grades Spring semester. I had A LOT of Bs and Cs, no Fs because everyone that had failed first semester was moved out in January!

By lewis.

November 7, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

Visiting colleges with my son has made me aware that unless one asks about credit for AP classes, the colleges might not say what their policy is. There is a lot of variation out there and admissions officers do not necessarily tell you the “bad” news unless directly asked. Whether they give credit for a good score on the AP exams, what that score must be, and whether there is credit or simply a boost to a higher level course when entering, all of these vary widely. Always ask directly if it is what may make a difference in your college decision. Of course all will say it makes a difference whether the student attempted the AP classes offered as this indicates willingness to challenge oneself. But then, if the student opted not to take the exam one wonders what they make of that. There is no uniformity of handling these matters, so again, ask and talk to the college counselor at school to see what they know of particular institutions’ expectations and requirements.

By Wanda

November 7, 2008 3:51 PM | Link to this

Forget the AP classes, most colleges have a Joint Enrollment program. Forget high school and move on to the real thing.

By Matt

November 7, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

How did a blog about AP grades turn in to an analogy regarding socialism and Obama? That’s right …… there are disgruntled McCain supporters here, and they see everything black and white. The south is so azz backwards it’s scary. Grow up… the rest of the world is waiting for you to join it.

By Mishap

November 7, 2008 4:18 PM | Link to this

I managed to pass 7 of 8 AP Exams as a high schooler in Gwinnett (was too lazy to pay attention in BC Calc). Did it help in college? Probably not. It reduced the # of easy A courses I could take and only reduced my tuition minimally. I received credit for 5 classes but the college level versions were significantly harder.

My younger brother passed 8 and received almost a full year of credit. Despite coming in 3rd in his class and never getting so much as a B in 13 years, he was fairly mediocre in college maintaining only a low 3 GPA at the Ivy league he and I attended. Despite having over 20+ credits and taking summer classes at GSU, he still dragged school out for a full 3 yrs (he should have finished in 2.5).

I had classmates that had combinations of 30AP credits and 30 actual college credits taken while in high school that did rather badly in school. In the end it’s the combination of being away from family and a much higher bar of competition that really defines the difficulty of college. AP should help students raise the difficulty level but if anything it takes away some courses that would raise one’s GPA and better transition them to college level work.

By jim d

November 7, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

thanks zoemol,

You kind of confirmed my thinking on the matter. I still question the test stradegy companies marketing a pass the test program though, stating the test has huge weakness’s in them that can be exploited. that seems to take a bit away from the program, don’t you think?

By Eric

November 7, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

As a student of two different major universities, I can tell you that AP classes do help prepare you for the rigors of college work, but must be used with guidance, as others have suggested. Although I got a 5 on my AP calculus course, as an economics major, I use a lot of calculus and decided to retake Calc I before moving onto Calc 2. I also exempted out of courses which I had no interest in taking, such as chemistry. Only you can decide what courses you should exempt from, but people in engineering should not exempt calculus because they can, instead, they should decide if they feel truly ready to move onto calculus 2. I’ve also heard of schools that have classes that are meant to bridge the gap between the 2, so you get credit for calc 2 but you go over things that AP calc does not teach.

As for redistributing wealth, I find it offensive that people assume those who are less fortunate are somehow lazy. There are lazy on both sides of this debate, and to say someone has less money because they are lazy is just plain wrong. Im not offering an opinion for redistributing wealth, just saying that many “poor” people i know work more than 1 job, so they certainly are not lazy, just less fortunate. Please take that into account.

By Mishap

November 7, 2008 4:25 PM | Link to this

I agree that the whole redistribution issue is stupid here.

If you’re so concerned about redistribution, figure out how to earn even more money so it’s an ever smaller issue. The rich don’t need help in saving their money. They have plenty of people who advocate for them every day. They’re called lobbyists, tax advisors, and even a sizeable chunk of congress and with their help they’ll survive just fine. The rich aren’t going extinct anytime soon…at least far less likely than the polar bears.

I think very few people on this board are even victims of redistribution. It’s far more likely they’ve benefitted from it far more than what has been taken from them.

Focus on getting kids to good schools and becomming self-sufficient rather than minimal changes on the tax code that return taxes to pre-Bush levels.

By Educational Tertium Quid

November 7, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

The state of education in Georgia needs improvement in many areas, but Georgia leads the nation in the success of the University System of Georgia’s Joint Enrollment Program that allows qualifying students to earn dual credit for both high school and college during the junior and senior years. Funded by the ACCEL/Early HOPE program, joint enrollment credits with a grade or C or better will typically transfer throughout the University System of Georgia and to many private and out-of-state colleges and universities. Students are far more likely to earn college credits through joint enrollment than by taking the all or nothing Advanced Placement courses in which earning college credit depends on the outcome of one exam taken late in the school year.

It’s no surprise that many individual high schools and school systems don’t trumpet the performance of their students on AP exams because their AP pass rates (a score of 3 out of 5 is enough to earn some college credit in some institutions)are exceedingly low, with far less than a majority of students earning a 3 or better at many schools. A word of advice to parents: Before you have your student sign up for Advanced Placement classes at the relentless urging the high school counselor, ask what the pass rate for all AP exams is at your child’s high school. Students need an array of options that include both joint enrollment and Advanced Placement. For many students during the last two years of high school, joint enrollment will be a far better option.

By fedup

November 7, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

Good information- check the pass rate for AP exams at your local high school. I see many kids taking AP classes and deciding half-way thru they want to drop the course. These kids are missing out on lots of other opportunities by filling their schedules w/AP courses and not chance of passing the exam. AP is overrated.

By fedup

November 7, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this

Ms. Diamond,

Please do a blog topic on instructional coaches. How much are they costing? What do they do? Are they accomplishing anything? Why do school systems need so many instructional coaches?

By bulldog85

November 7, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this

I think the availability of AP classes in high school is a plus for the students who take them. It offers bright, hard-working kids something for which they have to stretch their minds and hopefully keeps boredom at bay. The standardization of the courses/exams also provides a level playing field from school to school when colleges are making their choices… based partly on whether the student has taken the most rigorous courses available.
If a student scores high enough to get collge credit, then he/she deserves it.

Beyond this is where my opinion veers away. My son started his freshman year as a sophomore. Was I happy that he could finish college in 3 years? Financially, yes. But with the HOPE plus some scholarship money (and most students with a bagfull of AP credits will get this), finances weren’t as difficult as they could have been. Our concern was what would his life be like that first year. It’s a significant adjustment for even the most independent of kids and starting them off on level 2 for classes when everything else about their lives is level 1 isn’t, in my judgment, the best thing for them.

What my son decided to do was continue in the sequence of courses that were important to him (Calc 3 and French), and, instead of moving higher in the other subjects for which he had credit, just take “Intro to” classes in a myriad of subjects that he thought he might be interested in. So in his first year of college, he took Arabic, African-American studies, Judaic studies, some funky philosopy course, geography, history of blues and a few others.

It was kind of random and surprisingly challenging, but it opened up his eyes to a wide variety of subjects that he never would have been exposed to had he stuck with the traditional course sequences. He also thought that the freedom of choice that he had was a kind of reward for all the hard work of high school. I thought it somewhat defined part of what the college experience should be.

By catlady

November 7, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

I am guessing in most of GA we do not have unqualified students taking AP. After all, we have the HOPe scholarship which would be negatively impacted by poor grades. Many above average kids opt out of AP because they want the easier A they’d get in regular “advanced” classes.

Now, in other states it may be more of a problem.

And, I imagine that in some of the more wealthy high schools, where HOPE money is not that big a deal, you might have more marginal kids opting for AP.

I also have seen friends of my youngest, who made 4s and 5s on AP, still take the course in college to sweeten the HOPE GPA.

By Lynn

November 7, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

Bulldog 85, what a great idea. This rewards the hard work of high school and his accomplishments while affording your son the opportunity to expand his course work into some intersting directions.

That’s my goal at retirement to take advantage of the state’s offer to let older citizens take courses for free. I intend to audit a good many of the courses that my major didn’t have room for and that I didn’t have the funds to extend my studies another year (past graduation requirements) to explore a variety of subjects.

By Time for a Change in Ed

November 7, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

It’s interesting that Tech is reconsidering its AP credit policy. (And their policy is much stricter than UGA’s, by the way.)

My son would have started Tech as a second semester sophomore this year with AP and JE credits, but instead elected to go to MIT, where he only got credit for two core classes (for his 5’s on AP Calc BC and AP Language Arts). For all other APs on which he got 5’s (Chem, Physics, WH, USH, Gov), he only received ELECTIVE credit. (BTW, it’s correct that they give no credit at all for scores below 5.) They also only gave him credit for one of the calc classes he took joint enrollment at Tech and NO credit for the other Tech classes as they didn’t “align” with MIT’s curriculum. Does it sound like some Ivy’s/near-Ivy’s have a fiscal interest in not accepting APs? To me, YES!

By Hawk

November 7, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this

AP courses being accepted…….mmmmmm…I’m mixed on this one. I understand where schools are saying they do have to make money by charging for courses. From experience attending and graduating college in past, some students benefit with AP courses being accepted by completing rest of their program, graduating, getting and maintaining a job like they should which is the main goal of all this. But there are many students have their AP courses accepted and try to finish their degree program too fast to get a job and lose it quickly by poor performance. So this issue has its advantages and disadvantages.

By Hawk

November 7, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this

AP courses being accepted…….mmmmmm…I’m mixed on this one. I understand where schools are saying they do have to make money by charging for courses. From experience attending and graduating college in past, some students benefit with AP courses being accepted by completing rest of their program, graduating, getting and maintaining a job like they should which is the main goal of all this. But there are many students have their AP courses accepted and try to finish their degree program too fast to get a job and lose it quickly by poor performance. So this issue has its advantages and disadvantages.

By 30YearsIn

November 7, 2008 8:51 PM | Link to this

AP credits gave my daughter the opportunity to graduate in four years’ time with a double major. She wasn’t sure what she wanted to do so she majored in math and French. Crazy combination but she was good in math and loved French, hence the areas of study. She enjoyed her AP classes because she was studying with other serious students, not sitting in class with misbehaving students and troublemakers. She thought about doing the dual program with a local university but she was very active in many school clubs, etc. and did not want to miss out on those experiences during her senior year.

By David

November 7, 2008 9:36 PM | Link to this

I think that the college or university that one is applying to needs to carefully evaluate the school system that the student is graduating from. We all know that some BOE systems are much better than others at preparing their students to excel at the college level. I graduated from Fayette Co. in 2000, and at the time we were a National School of Excellence where all AP courses were credited to your college degree.

By Lisa

November 7, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

Thanks for the info on joint enrollment. My child is taking AP History and her teacher told the students the pass rate for the AP exam is low. Of course the school’s administration only had positive things to tell the parents about AP courses. Some of you need to stay focused and stick to the topic of AP credits….. and take some meds for ADHD!

By UGAFan

November 7, 2008 10:40 PM | Link to this

As an accomplished AP student myself, I feel that Advanced Placement should be used at the college’s discression.

For the University of Georgia (my hopeful future college), AP scores are given in most subjects with a “3” while some have to have a “4”. I have also looked into Georgia Tech, where the average scores for college credit extend a little bit higher — “4” being the average minimum for receiving credit. These scores vary because the institutions have different ideals for what they consider passing on their terms. More prestigious schools may not even take the exams as credit but more like a placement for which course to enroll in next at their specific university.

In Fayette County (at least), students must apply and be accepted to be enrolled in an Advanced Placement course. Any student can pay to take the exam, but that cannot be reflected to any specific teacher’s aid in preparing for the test.

I was lucky enough to receive a “5” in AP US History, a “4” in AP Chemistry, and a “3” in AP English Language last year. By paying in the neighborhood of $200, I have definitely saved money. With these tough financial times ahead for students (and the going rate of student loans), this tremendously helps for the future.

Preparing for exams like the AP Chemistry and the AP US History are tougher (in a serious setting) than most introductory college courses. Friends of mine at various universities around the region say that these courses were definitely much harder in high school than in college. The reason is the test covers so much material, and it takes a good amount of studying to try and tackle every single topic on this exam.

By What a waste

November 7, 2008 11:05 PM | Link to this

“The only reason parents sign up their children for these classes is for the potential $$$ savings on college tuition.”

Look at this idiotic sentence. The ONLY reason? Please.

Could the AJC please find some way of marking which posts in this threads are actually worth reading?

By DJMack

November 7, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this

To all of the idiots who can’t get past this redistributive ideology…….GET OVER IT…..The Fundamentals of the economy are sound… That’s a redistributive LAPSE in REALITY. To HB and Spread the Wealth, please stay on topic…it’s obvious that a “grading curve” helped both of you during the redistribtion of “Cs” in many of your classes.

By Ed H

November 8, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this

I agree that each college should be able to set their own admissions standards and students can make their choices accordingly. In my son’s case the AP cources have been a blessing. The credits he received will enable him to double and even triple major. Colleges set minimum score for credit at 3 some higher.

By KML

November 8, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

Although I passed the AP chemistry and Physics exam I still took both first level classes my freshman year at Tech. My thought was why not take two classes that already knew I’d do fairly well in. I not only earned credit for both classes but received A’s which got my GPA off to a good start.

By JT

November 8, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

I took 5 AP courses in high school, but I only took exams in 3: English, US History, and World History. As a future engineering major, I knew that taking the Chemistry and Calculus exams and moving to the next level as a freshman in college would only hurt me. Instead, I took Chemistry I and Calculus I with everyone else, got A’s to pad my GPA for the years that it would be stressed with an engineering curriculum, and took the credits I received for passing the AP English, US History, and World History exams. Not having to take those electives freed up my time to focus on more important courses.

By Megan

November 8, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

As a recent college graduate and now a Ph.D. student also acting as a teaching assistant, I have questions concerning the use of AP classes as replacement for college courses.

I, myself, placed out of several intro-level college courses my freshman year. However, I then moved into the upper-level courses and was not as prepared as I should have been. While AP courses provide a good foundation, they do not necessarily act as stand-ins for a department’s 101 course. Each department teaches their upper level courses assuming certain knowledge has been acquired in the 101 level class. If that isn’t the case, the student will suffer.

I believe colleges should accept AP tests (according to their own thresholds for minimum scores). However, instead of using these courses to replace certain classes, colleges should give students a “general credit” in that department. That way, a student will get the hours toward the general education requirement, major, and/or graduation requirement without missing vital information.

By Elaine

November 8, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Gread ideas, Megan!

By catlady

November 8, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

Of course, we could do it the old (40 yrs ago) way where you could pay to try to place out of classes (CLEP) once you got on campus. I never did, although I could have CLEPed Spanish and Freshman English, at least. My folks were not willing to “waste” the money, since I might NOT pass. (I graduated 2nd in my class of 250, but they thought I might not really be up to it intellectually.)

So how did I finish college in one semester short of 3 years? I took overloads—6, 7, or 8 courses in a semester, except the first, when I only took 5. I would guess in many majors even now that could be done if a student was willing to work like crazy (but now colleges may charge extra for overloads.) Obviously, in some majors you could not do it (Although my dad went through Duke’s EE program in 3 years).

My kids knew the rules: finish in 4 years. No excuses. They did.

I share Jim D s disdain for allowing a private company to make money off the AP course testing. Much of what is and is not going on in American education is due to the involvement of for-profit companies.

And I am against kids gaming the system with HOPE. If you have a 4 or 5 on AP, HOPE should NOT be paying for you to fatten your GPA on the same course at college. Of course, I also think HOPE ought to be saved for kids who take challenging courses in high school, rather than the current system. Won’t happen, but I would like for HOPE to be an even sweeter deal for those who are actually PREPARED to do college-level work. Let those who are not prepared “try it out” on their own dime.

By Scott

November 8, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

AP courses definitely prepare students for college better. Whether to accept credit when offered is another story. Students need to make individual decisions about that. In terms of colleges & universities saving money by not accepting them, that statement is absolutely false. Our colleges whether public or private cost more money than they charge. For private universities, they use their endowments to subsidize the cost of the students’ education while public universities receive money from the state. These courses when used to allow students to graduate early actually save colleges money. I was fortunate to do so, which in my case saved my parents roughly $12,000 since they were kind enough to pay for my college.

By MTH

November 8, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this

A lot of those taking the CLEP tests are older, return to college students, just trying to lower the cost and time to get a degree. I graduated with a 2.2 GPA. If I went back today, I would be a Dean’s List student. Mainly because of the effort, I wasn’t willing to do then, but I understand the importance of now.

By Rick

November 8, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

I believe the University System is forcing students to take AP classes as part of the admissions selection process. My son is a high school senior this year and would like to attend the University of Georgia next fall. Because his high school offers AP classes, UGA will look to see if he has academically challenged himself by taking some of these classes. The admissions department will tell you that part of their criteria for admittance is whether you have taken and passed AP classes when offered. If the classes are not offered then they don’t hold it against you. For that reason, my son has taken AP classes and managed to pass the AP exams with 4’s and 5’s where he will get some credit if he enters UGA. Unfortunately, if he had not taken the AP classes, he would be at a disadvantage in being considered for admission for UGA. So it is the college admissions requirements that are making students take AP classes to show that they are challenging themselves while in high school. Ask the admissions counselors at UGA and they will tell you it is part of their evaluation for acceptance. Is this bad? I don’t know, but it is part of the overall ‘resume of work’ that is considered when applying for admission to our flagship state univeristy. Even the UGA website will quote statistics on the average student last year who was admitted and how many AP classes they had taken and it’s more than 1. It now seems it is a requirement to take AP classes if you want to get admitted to various schools regardless of whether the student gets college credit for the classes. So to say the main reason that AP classes are taken is to save money seems false to me as it appears that my son has taken the classes to simply get equal treatment in the selection process for admission to UGA. College credit is not even on his radar as he is sweating just getting into UGA because his GPA is lower than their ‘standard’ as he has taken rigorous courses and challenged himself and made a few B’s that now put him in the lower accepted students GPA ranges.

By prof805

November 8, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

jim d,

I am an AP teacher of 18 years (30 total)and I can confirm zoemol’s post, and use a similar approach myself. TCB instituted the Audit program last year largely because the AP brand had been inappropriately applied across the country: AP Basketweaving, AP Phys.Ed.,etc. I believe the audit system was to first to reaffirm the integrity of the AP brand, but secondly to avoid the statistical skewing that was occuring because of number of unprepared students (from unqualified and poorly delivered programs)that were taking and failing the tests. I personally believe that colleges and universities should take AP scores for college credit, with guidelines at their discretion, e.g., only 4’s or 5’s, or only to exempt remedial courses. Outright rejection of AP courses from high school is too often motivated by pride and monetary considerations, not from actual academic deficiency. I also firmly believe that AP test takers should NOT be subsidized. Currently, ours are not, although we have a good program at our school to assist needy students who are genuinely qualified. In this way, (coupled with my unrelenting rigor of expectations)we have been able to fend off the persistent efforts of administration to increase the quantity of AP students at the expense of quality.

BTW, I recently purchased, with my own money, one of the very “test strategy” books that you linked to. Trust me, it could in NO WAY inappropriately assist a student in my subject (Economics) without a solid understanding of content. IMHO it could only assist an already knowledgeable student who has a genuine fear of testing. Personally, I think this company wrote one book and put 22 titles on it. Furthermore, I know from my law background that the “Money Back Guarantee”, as worded, is essentially unenforceable, further evidence of their inefficiency.

Humbly yours,

By HS Student

November 8, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

As a student who has taken 2 AP courses (USH, German), I can safely say they were the hardest courses that I have taken in HS. In fact, I almost did not pass my USH course. However, I received a “4” on the Exam. On the flipside of the coin, I received a high B (87 if i recall correctly) in my AP German class and scored a “2” on the exam. So in my opinion, teachers should be held responsible for making sure that AP courses do indeed prepare you for college. I know that my USH course showed me that college WILL indeed require some effort.

Also, ironically, my Joint Enrollment course in English is actually easier than 75% of the classes I have taken in high school.

By mbw

November 8, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

When my son entered college 10 years ago, he had at least 15 hours already earned from high school courses offered to him. I can tell you that the AP Calculus class he took was anything but easy. If high schools are still teaching AP courses at the same level, these kids deserve to get the college credit.

By Patrick

November 8, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

Each school sets the parameters on their acceptance of the AP Credits. The school defines the type of course and the scores on the AP test that they will accept. If you make a 1 your not going to get credit. If you get a 5 you probably will. So there is a grading system in place. Getting AP credit is just another factor on choosing which college you go to. You might be inclined to choose the college that offers the credit vs. the one that doesn’t.

Our son graduated from high school last year as an AP Scholar with Distinction. This means he took 5 courses and received an average of 3.5. This sounds great when bragging on the tennis court. :) Shame on us that are proud of our children and express it. LOL

He took his first AP course as a sophomore and took 3 as a junior and 4 as a senior. His comment to me that the “honor” and “gifted” courses have been diluted by the school systems. While these kids in these courses are smart he felt they were not motivated as kids who wanted to earn credit in AP. He felt that there were a better level of students as a whole.

At this point, he is at a private school in NC and they have accepted all of the AP course credits. This represents 20% of his college credits and he figured that he could graduate in 3 years if he took a full load.

Not a bad deal from a parents perspective because he will save 13-15k for not having to attend one semester. Not bad for the student because they are exposed to college level work without the pressure of college. Are they ahead of the curve stepping into college. Yes

A school not wanting to give credit because they are not going to get 4 years worth of money out of a student is a bad argument. I know of many students who did not get into their choice of college last year. Perhaps it will open more slots for them. College professors’ that are “insulted” that high school teachers are teaching college level courses. These teachers have to go through special training to teach these courses. Because their “feelings” are hurt is irrelevant. They need to get a thicker skin. The argument that the student is not ready for the rigor for college life is poor at best. If he or she is not ready for college life it is because of that particular student not because they took an AP course. There are so many factors that make student not ready. I cant believe taking AP course make them worse. There are other factors……Not being independent, socially immature, drinking, not focusing on school, girls, boys,etc.

I hate seeing kids that succeed and work hard get no credit.

By rbjd1313

November 8, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

As a College Senior, here are my thoughts: I took APs at my private high school. My college (a small, high-ranking liberal arts school) only accepts grades for 4-5s. The only exemptions offered were 1 semester of Intro Biology and 1 semester of Intro Chem. Everything else only counted towards credit load. I still had to take all the pre-requisite intro classes in every other subject. Did APs help me prepare? Kind of. AP classes in high school are NOTHING like college classes in there set up. First off, AP classes meet more often. College is much more independent work. However, because my high school was extremely rigorous, I was more than prepared for college.

By Sk8ingmomma

November 8, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this

Spread the Wealthy Grades,

Your spouse needs to rethink his example of wealth distribution. It is not at all an accurate representation of wealth distribution. :rolleyes:

Thankfully, he/she is not teaching my children!

By Matt

November 8, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

LOL @ Sk8ingmomma!! Exactly…… Disgruntled people are always entertaining in their lack of knowledge.

By Poor Man

November 8, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this

My daughter is a Freshman at Dartmouth and they did not accept a single AP class she had taken…she took nine exams and scored a “4” on eight and a “5” on one. The view point of the colleges is that they are not a substitute for the real thing is valid. She will be the first to tell that the experience at college is another world from High School..in difficulty.

By love my 4 kids

November 9, 2008 12:06 AM | Link to this

Laura, Here’s a topic from Obama’s education platform worth blogging about. THIS WILL HAVE A HUGE IMPACT!

America “Serves” or enslaves?

http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=80539

By Class of 2004

November 9, 2008 4:12 AM | Link to this

The problem I saw in my AP class was there were some kids who’s taking it for GPA booster, good klook on the transcript, etc. (Ex. A “B” in AP equals to “A” in regular class) Teachers should’ve not let those kids take the AP, they are not ready to take college course, and it’s not fair to other kids. From my experience, AP is a great program, as long as it serves the purpose, as long as it’s not used as an easy way-out.

By FrustratedEducator

November 9, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this

Jason;

It is attitudes like yours that have gotten our country where it is today. “Adults” making excuses for the students that are too lazy to take advantage of the opportunity that is given them.

Having a job, or any of the other excuses you list, for not being able to succeed in school or AP classes in particular are why our kids are so lazy and our country is lagging behind countries like India, China and not so much anymore Japan.

We need to increase the rigor of our curriculum from first grade on up and establish alternative schools for the individuals that choose not to take advantage of the opportunity afford to them. If teachers didn’t have to deal with individuals like you our society would be much better off.

By IndyGT

November 9, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

I took AP classes 10 years ago, and did AP out of history and biology.. which definitely helped as GT was rigorous enough without adding in a difficult class that I would never use again (I was an engineering major). I did also take AP courses, MAINLY to prepare myself for GT. Which I feel like they did. In this ever competitive college admissions era, I feel AP courses are a necessity, and most definitely should be used for admissions. The HOPE scholarship has both allowed GA schools to keep its best and brightest, but also had the effect of improving GA public colleges rankings (as much as I hate to admit.. that includes UGA). I do feel like it would be a travesty if colleges quit accepting AP credits, it helped me ‘get out’ earlier, and helped prepare me for college. Seeing as you need to pass a nationally standardized test to get credit, I see no reason that AP credits shouldn’t count.

By DB

November 9, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

You know, it’s funny, but we really didn’t think of AP classes as a substitute for college. We didn’t have any expectations that my son would finish a year early by doing well on his AP classes in high school. We thought of them as a way to get him past uninteresting intro classes, and give him a chance to take something off-the-wall that he might not have had time to do otherwise, or, in the case of one semester, to take only 12 hours of very challenging courses and be able to concentrate on them, do well in them, and not feel that he was “falling behind” in hours to graduate.

College is college. High school is high school. We shouldn’t confuse the two.

By Laura

November 9, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

One of the problems with AP is that it doesn’t require the level of work that it’s supposed to. I’m a senior in high school taking one AP class this semester and 4 (a full schedule of APs) next semester. I took 3 APs last year and got a 4 on two exams and a 5 on the other, and only one of them (AP US History, on which I got one of those 4s) required real, hard work. I got a 4 on AP English Language with absolutely NO preparation. None whatsoever. It’s sad that people at my school can draw turkeys as answers to FRQs (Free-Response Questions) and still pass the AP. It’s unacceptable, really. Most AP classes I have taken have deviated very, very little from a standard advanced college prep class. As long as a school system is able to slap the AP label on some classes in order to attract parents and as long as the College Board gets the change in their pockets, I doubt very little will change in the way of increasing standards so that college freshmen will be more prepared for the rigor that university-level work requires.

By Laura

November 9, 2008 2:55 PM | Link to this

One of the problems with AP is that it doesn’t require the level of work that it’s supposed to. I’m a senior in high school taking one AP class this semester and 4 (a full schedule of APs) next semester. I took 3 APs last year and got a 4 on two exams and a 5 on the other, and only one of them (AP US History, on which I got one of those 4s) required real, hard work. I got a 4 on AP English Language with absolutely NO preparation. None whatsoever. It’s sad that people at my school can draw turkeys as answers to FRQs (Free-Response Questions) and still pass the AP. It’s unacceptable, really. Most AP classes I have taken have deviated very, very little from a standard advanced college prep class. As long as a school system is able to slap the AP label on some classes in order to attract parents and as long as the College Board gets the change in their pockets, I doubt very little will change in the way of increasing standards so that college freshmen will be more prepared for the rigor that university-level work requires.

By John

November 9, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this

AP courses may better prepare a student for college, but they are NOT college courses if taught by high school teachers in high schools!

Most colleges have credit-by-exam policies which award academic credit based upon KNOWLEDGE and it is up to the college faculty to determine the level necessary. Students should be alowed this route if it is acceptable at an institution. The government should stay out of academics until they can prove they can mamage their our houses!

By Bentheretwice

November 9, 2008 8:01 PM | Link to this

My daughter went in and got a years worth of credit at her University. Another University she would have only gotten a third of that. The problem with doing this is that kids are thrown into UPPER level courses immediately while they are also adjusting to leaving home, living away on their own, the social pressures, etc. The intro courses although easier would provide a little buffer.

Each University sets its award based on a score. Some schools a 5 in AP BC calculus give you a credit for 1 calculus course and other schools will give you two.

In addition, they also may exempt you based on your SAT score from basic english courses and writing courses.

In a time when costs are skyrocketing…..this is a win win situation for the student provided they realize the upper level courses will be tougher. Of course AP credit should be given, it gets our bright kids to work hard IN high school. With the no child left behind most resources tend to go to the bottom students….this way the upper level kids get their due.

By tt

November 9, 2008 8:43 PM | Link to this

One basically has 2 choices, AP or Joint Enrollment.

I had 2 children, each taking a different route. If your child likes the “high school experience”, stay with AP.

If your child wants to get a jump on college, then JE is the better option.

The big difference, one has to take a test to get the AP credit, where as with JE, the college grade is what you get (good or bad). The JE grade is also used as the HS grade.

JE is done at the college, so your child knows all about college life, where that is not the case with AP.

By cherish

November 9, 2008 10:36 PM | Link to this

Hmm, Robby and LB have readily identified themselves as sore losers.

No, we shouldn’t be spreading the smarts around, but let’s keep in mind that many of the AP-taking kids are the spoiled, lazy, silver-spoon-in-the-mouth cheaters who cheat their way through high school AND college!

In terms of the wealth, well, the GOP has been spreading it around and misappropriating it for YEARS! Hence your demise…

By Obama

November 9, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this

Sore losers….redistribute this!!!!!!

By Obama lover

November 9, 2008 11:23 PM | Link to this

Sore losers!!!!!!!!!!

By Elizabeth

November 9, 2008 11:46 PM | Link to this

Many of the kids taking AP classes are not “silver-spoon-in-the-mouth cheaters who cheat their way through high school AND college.” Many students choose to take AP classes due to the fact that our public school system’s curriculum has been dumbed down for the “average” student. Some choose to challenge themselves and work hard, in hopes of being rewarded one day by a fat pay check that they slaved their whole lives for. Unfortunately now those who worked their butts off are going to being paying for the losers who didn’t take AP classes thanks to Mr. Obama.

By cherish

November 10, 2008 3:09 AM | Link to this

Elizabeth, COME ON DOWN!!! YOU’RE THE NEXT CONTESTANT ON “AMERICA’S SORE LOSERS!!!!”

Alright, I’ll grant that ALL the AP kids don’t cheat…which is why I said “many.” But the fact still remains that a whole bunch of them do. And if you, Sweetheart, are blind to that fact, then you’ve got your lil’ head in the academic sand.

And I want you to know how SIMPLE you sound labeling students “losers” just because they didn’t take AP classes. You’ve got it all wrong. These kids who choose to take AP classes are not necessarily doing so because the schools have been dumbed down, but because they’re under pressure to perform (for the loser parents who live vicariously thru these kids) and to compete in a system that isn’t designed to foster genuine learning to start with. The American school system teaches to the tests. Period! And because of it, I can’t tell you how many AP-achieving students I’ve encountered who have absolutely, positively NO COMMON SENSE and very little ability to think critically. They’ve been taught to master tests, and that, my friend, is about all they leave high school excelling at!

And while you’d like to blame everything on Mr. Obama - that’s PRESIDENT Obama, thank you - I’m afraid that’s not gonna work.

In the meantime, here’s a lil’ cheese to go with that whine of yours: “Given the steadily rising competition to achieve high grades to gain acceptance to top universities, pressure to attain higher grades has increased dramatically. A poll conducted by Who’s Who Among American High School Students in 1998, revealed that 80 percent of America’s top students admitted that cheating helped them climb to the top of their class - 80 percent!” Source: zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1685&dept_id=45240&newsid=15962887&PAG=461&rfi=9

Or here’s something else: “Students are under pressure to achieve high grade-point averages, which helps them rationalize their behavior. And the schools themselves are complicit, because they reward high grades more than the process of learning…” Source: nytimes.com/2008/10/13/opinion/13mon4.html?_r=1&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink&oref=slogin

“Cheating is epidemic, say experts, and recent scandals have rocked — and in some cases divided — both public and private high schools from New Hampshire to California. Some are the highest-performing schools in the nation, where the pressure to get into an Ivy League college is intense and parents buy into the academic game.” Source: abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=4362510&page=1

“A whopping 95 percent of high school students say they’ve cheated during the course of their education, ranging from letting somebody copy their homework to test-cheating, a Rutgers University professor reports.” Source: schoollibraryjournal.com/article/CA6539855.html

I don’t just pull talking points out of my assets Darling. I’ve been working with students for years. I know what the heck I’m talking about. Students are cheating indeed, and it’s more prevalent among the “high achieving” dummies than anywhere! You, apparently, just haven’t been clued in. Need some more data? Just holler!

By Judy

November 10, 2008 6:05 AM | Link to this

Matt,

I agree the blog has shifted direction but suggesting that the south as a whole is backwards isn’t very nice. As I recall the election results - the split was like 52/47 or something like that - clearly it wasn’t the “south” alone that wasn’t behind Obama. If you are so unhappy here, find a state that you feel reflects your views.

By Ga Values

November 10, 2008 6:19 AM | Link to this

My Daughter started the UGA Honors program as a 2nd year student through the AP program. Although the high school adds a grade level & in the case of her high school 1/2 grade for honors, each of the college she applied to recalculated her GPA excluding this extra. Emory did not add for any thing lower than 5’s on the A/P, UGA gave 1/2 grade level for any A/P courses taken. Although my daughter started with a full year’s credit she still only graduated in 4 years.

By Judy

November 10, 2008 7:05 AM | Link to this

It is a tough call. My daughter has always been in the gifted classes. Last year as a freshman, we followed the same path. We assumed that there was some sort of weighting of the grades (example an A in gifted wouldn’t be equal to an A in regular class). NOPE. Several of us asked they way put your kids in gifted if there is a chance they will end up with an 89 where in a regular level they would end up with a 99? The teacher said the colleges do look at the level of classes taken and frankly some kids just need to be more stimulated and would grow bored in a regular level class.

I have been told that they do weight AP classes but possibly there is some validity to taking them to keep the boredom away too. It is a tough decision. We meet with her counselor this week to map out what she will do the next two years. Seems a bit sad to me that they can’t really even enjoy high school because it is so competitive to get into college.

By bearcasey

November 10, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this

I taught AP classes (US history and European history) for 25 years (1981-2006) and can say without a doubt that any of my students scoring “4’s” or “5’s” on the AP test deserve college credit. Many students who had NEVER made less than an “A” in regular classes made 60’s on my first test! Most rose to the occasion and were at their usual levels by the end of my course. My AP courses were comparable to “real” college courses. I have dozens of letters from former students who tell me that my courses compare favorably with upper level college courses. WILLIAM CASEY