Get Schooled

By jim d

October 30, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

WORLD CLASS???

Would that be third world? No one seems to know. But hey it does make a nice catch phrase.

Here’s my problem though. Only a few short years ago the US was a leader in producing the best educated work force in the world. Then areas like Gwinnett instituted a world class educational system. The US is what, something like in the middle of the pack now and dropping quickly?

Perhaps we should forget about world class and set a standard exceeding the rest of the world as we once did. Whatta think?

By jim d

October 30, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

Ms. Diamond,

I thought perhaps you had been born at night, but I diddn’t think it was last night.

Can you tell me the last time a political candidate kept a campaign promise on education? I may just be getting old but I can’t seem to recall one.

By TheBlogger

October 30, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

“World class” means anything you want it to mean. It could mean the best in the world. It could mean average in the world. It could mean whatever. That’s the beauty of politican speak.

Regarding budgets…. This will be an absolute critical issue for education this year. With a bad economy, less tax money is coming in and yet more kids are enrolling in public schools (parents cannot afford the private schools). A blooming student population with less money - not a good combination.

By jim d

October 30, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

Blogger,

add to those issues the proposed amendment II and we have the makings of some real problems.

VOTE NO!!

By Tony

October 30, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

World Class Education? What does it mean? You guys are right. It is nothing more than a catch phrase to be used to beat educators over the head with. A few years ago, the phrase was “We do what’s best for children.” I heard this so many times I wanted to hit the next person that said it. The phrase was always used as a trump card in discussions for making decisions about school programs and issues. It was always pulled out by a higher ranking official when they had no real argument for why their ideas were better than the lower ranking person’s ideas.

To clarify some of the rankings information already presented this morning. If you look at these studies carefully, you’ll notice that the US has never been at the top. You’ll also notice that we have maintained approximately the same ranking while countries above and below have had wild shifts. Very few countries have maintained consistently higher rankings. We are not perfect, but all the political hyperbole will not help.

What does world class mean? I don’t know. But, if it means we will provide the very best opportunities for learning for all children, then I am for it. If, like everything else in the political world, it means we will use this phrase to mean nothing, then let’s dump it.

jim d is right about the amendment - vote no!

By LB

October 30, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this

The best education in the world does not guarantee a child will respond to it. Therefore, like earlier posters said, it is just a catch phrase.

By high school teacher

October 30, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

Perhaps we should forget about world class and set a standard exceeding the rest of the world as we once did. Whatta think?

That would require us to abandon NCLB…

World class educations in other countries don’t educate the masses. Given our entitlement culture, I don’t think that we can ever achieve what we once had. Students in other countries realize the value of an education and fight for it. Our students whine when they have to copy notes from the board.

And I am with you on the NO to Amendment II!

By love my 4 kids

October 30, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

“World class” is a meaningless advertising term. The only way to find out how our elected officials define the secret code is to read the education law du jour. Bush I defined it in “America 2000”, Clinton defined it in Goals 2000, and Bush II defined it in “NCLB”. Anyone who has spent time reading these documents will find that there is virtually no difference. If you loved the “world class” schools produced by NCLB, then the next version under Obama will be the same, but progressively worse. McCain’s plan would be the same, because the powers that are pushing this agenda are the same. Ever wonder why Obama, McCain, Pelosi, and Bush all rallied together to support the $700billion bailout, even though the house received more calls against it than the proposed illegal alien amnesty bill? That is the ONLY reason the House originally vetoed it. This should give you a big clue as to who these elected officials really represent.

By Blue Devil

October 30, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

Hey Obama, the world needs ditch diggers too, son.

By Rob Smith

October 30, 2008 2:45 PM | Link to this

Vote for World Class Education in Gwinnett County

We have had the same School Board members for 37 years in the case of Louise Radloff !

The Republican Party has had complete control of our Gwinnett School Board for too long …

We want some new blood for change !

Vote For

Ravindra Kumar

Jane Hendrix

Meagan Kline

For a breath of fresh air !

By flipper

October 30, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

The schools in countries that truly provide a “world class” education track.. Children get the very best education that they can based on their ability.

In the United States, schools are tripping all over eachother trying to be the first to detrack.

Kids who are behind will as a result become even more behind while kids who are capable will be dumbed down.

Gotta love NCLB. No Child Left Behind… No Country Gets Ahead.

By love my 4 kids

October 30, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

Laura D. FYI, here’s how the Dems defined “world class” under Clinton. Check and see how Obama’s version compares.

http://www.ncrel.org/sdrs/areas/issues/envrnmnt/stw/sw0goals.htm

By Tony

October 30, 2008 6:19 PM | Link to this

flipper - please name those countries that provide such a superior education.

By tom

October 30, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this

flipper,

Japanese students have outperformed US students in just about all major (and minor) international studies in mathematics. Thus, as far as mathematics achievement is concerned, Japan does qualify as a country that provides “superior” education. Their students performed near the top, far above US, at 4th and 8th grades in the TIMSS.

So, for your information, Japanese schools do NOT track students in Grades 1-9, their compulsory education. So, this is just another excuse offered by schools/teachers.

By love my 4 kids

October 31, 2008 12:22 AM | Link to this

Laura D.

Here is the famous Marc Tucker “Dear Hillary letter” that reveals the people and plans behind the Goals 2000 legislation. Well worth the read.

http://www.eagleforum.org/educate/marc_tucker/

By Sarah

October 31, 2008 7:55 AM | Link to this

What is the suicide rate for preteens and teens in those countries that are superior in education. I have been told that the stress from the competition results in a high suicide rate.

By Lee

October 31, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

….and the 800 pound gorilla in the room is IQ and the effects that it has on the learning process.

Unfortunately, this nation’s politically correct pathology will not allow us to discuss race and IQ and how to set up a system that will be to the best benefit of all citizens in this country.

Instead, we place the future valedictorian with a 130 IQ next to the future felon with an 85 IQ and expect them to learn at the same pace.

Bet you don’t see that in Japan…..

By jim d

October 31, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

Actually Lee, you do.

Since the beginning of this decade Japan has been attempting to emmulate the US sytem. Special Needs Education,“ or, preferably, “Inclusive and Supportive Education,“ the theme of ISEC 2005, provides appropriate education to all children, in the least restrictive educational environment, including those children who have the most severe and profound disabilities.

So I guess if we can’t catch up to the rest of the world we just need to insist they come down to our level, in essence creating a “World class education”

By tom

October 31, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this

Sarah,

A lot of people bring out the suicide rate excuse whenever US education is compared to those high-achieving countries. It is educators’ favorite excuse, and they are just trying to somehow explain away why our mediocre system is somehow better.

The relevant fact here is that those students are achieving much better than our students (in math, and in science in more recent international studies), AND in Japan, they don’t track students through Grade 9. So, flipper’s suggestion that tracking is the reason for their success does not apply, at least to Japan.

By Sarah

October 31, 2008 9:25 AM | Link to this

Tom, I am not an educator and you didn’t answer my question. You just skirted around it. Are you a politician?

By jim d

October 31, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

Tracking is not the reason.

Where the largest difference is, is their compulsory education laws. Children are only required by law to attend for 6 years of elementary and 3 years of lower secondary school (grades 7-9)

Note also; Private upper-secondary schools account for about 55 % of all upper-secondary schools, and neither public nor private schools are free .

By jim d

October 31, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

Sarah,

Without attempting to answer your question, let me say that if you insist on looking at suicide rates you will need to somehow factor in drug abuse rates as well in order to come up with any meaningful results.

By jim d

October 31, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

Interesting stat.

In japan, while upper secondary education is not compulsory, 99% of the student population does move into it.

What a wonderful thing “CHOICE” is. Not only do the japaneese get to chose if they wish to further their educaation, they also are allowed to “CHOOSE” where. (WHAT A NOVEL CONCEPT !!)

By tom

October 31, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

Sarah,

I don’t have any information on suicide rates in Japan nor in the US. If the basis of your question is because you have been told by someone, that’s what you are going to get as your response - you are being told by me that Japanese are NOT considering the high academic demand as a cause of suicide among their youths. In fact, they just released new academic standards that INCREASE the academic content. Again, this is just an excuse offered by educators to justify their mediocre (at best) results.

jim d

It is true that students/parents can “CHOOSE,” but schools also get to “CHOOSE” which students to accept as students must pass entrance exams to enter upper secondary schools (Grades 10-12), even public ones. So, it isn’t just the “CHOICE” given to students/parents that might be contributing to the difference.

By found this

October 31, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

There is an article here that talks about all age groups have a rise in the suicide rate. I have pulled out the info about children.

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/index.php?sid=34999

The latest NPA data confirm that suicide by elementary- and middle-school students is a serious social problem. The suicide rate for this group rose by a massive 57.6%, representing a total of 93 innocent lives lost, 34 more than in 2002. Among high-school students there was also a sharp rise of 29.3%. In total, 225 young lives were lost in this category. There was also an increase in the number of college students killing themselves. The overall suicide rate among people aged 19 or younger rose by 22%.

Experts say that young people who commit suicide are greatly influenced by adults who take their own lives and the publicity surrounding the deaths. The stress and competition in school for jobs that may no longer exist have also been documented.

By mmmm

October 31, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

There are more suicides of children under 15 in the US - 250+ in 2005. There were more than 4000 people ages 15-24 killed themselves.

It seems pretty clear that suicides are important social issues for both countries.

By Tony

October 31, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

Japan’s educational system and its cultural norms work together to cause students to perform well academically. This has been the case for several decades. So, then, why is it that the US economy has continued to outperform Japan’s and all others’ in the world? After all, with the sorry state of our educational system extending all the way back to the 50’s, we should have dropped dramatically in economic standing in the world.

Now, we have more or less copied Japan’s superior math curriculum for use in Georgia’s schools and people in this state are criticizing the plan. They are claiming math education will be set back tremendously by the new performance standards, even though Japan has achieved such high results. If we want better results shouldn’t we change our methods and curriculum?

Culturally, the people of Japan value a good education. School choice is not as much an option for Japanese students as some bloggers here would have you believe. They have limitations just as we do. Japanese schools do not track students in lower grades. That is a myth.

As for the one who thinks future criminals have IQ’s of 85, think again. There are many who have very high IQ’s. Factory workers are more likely to have the 85-100 IQ’s. When you start talking about setting a life path based on IQ (or other tests) you all need to be reminded to read “Brave New World”. One of the greatest aspects of American education is the ability for anyone willing to put in the work to obtain a high quality education. No one’s choices are limited by a test when they are 15 years old.

By Lee

October 31, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

Future felon, borderline retard, learning disabled, don’t get hung up on semantics…

The problem is that for the first 8 years (10 years if you count preK and K), our schools place the highest achievers in the same class as the lowest achievers and expect them to learn at the same pace.

It is only at the high school level where the kids can really begin to segregate themselves by ability. A/P, college prep, honors, call it what you will, they are simply a means to segregate by ability.

Too little, too late, IMHO.

Go to any first grade classroom. The teachers know within the first few weeks of school who can do the work and who needs extra help. You don’t need an IQ test to figure that one out.

But, our schools think it is ok to push the laggards through the system until one day, they wind up in high school but can only do third grade work.

World class, my a s s ….

By tom

October 31, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Tony,

I know some teachers here will be mad at me when I say this, but the major hurdle for successfully implementing the new math standards, which is more or less copied from the Japanese standards, is teachers. Unfortunately, our teachers are the products of our school system. US teachers are far less knowledgeable of mathematics compared to Japanese teachers. Mathematics is mathematics, and what’s important in a math curriculum is its logical coherence, which now exists in the new Georgia standards. However, it’s teachers who teach, not the state standards. When teachers are less knowledgeable, the quality will be inferior, which will in turn result in inferior learning.

The reason the US has maintained the highest economic standards isn’t because of our K-12 education system. It’s higher education that attracts the cream of the crops from all over the world, many of whom stay here because of a much higher status for living here compared to wherever they are originally from.

By tom

October 31, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

Lee,

Again, Japan does NOT track in their compulsory education years (grades 1-9). AND they produce much better results than the US. So, you can’t say that the lack of tracking is the problem. Moreover, in so many elementary schools, kids are already separated. BUT, unfortunately, teachers can’t (or not willing to) teach struggling kids effectively so that they fall further and further behind.

By Lee

October 31, 2008 6:48 PM | Link to this

Tom, Japan is comprised of a homogeneous group of people of Asian ethnicity. Take a gander of the IQ hierarchy. So, you have an industrialized nation populated by one of the high IQ ethnicities.

They don’t have to track.

Guess what, back in the 50’s, when the US demographics were about 90% white, we didn’t have to track either. The current age / grade grouping that we have is based on this population.

Today, it doesn’t make sense. Ability/grade grouping does.

By Tony

October 31, 2008 8:47 PM | Link to this

I agree that teachers’ knowledge of mathematics is a concern, but I think they know more than they are given credit for. This is the crux of my research. In the last 10 years, our licensure standards have been improved and colleges are requiring higher level math for elementary and middle school teachers. Some schools, like mine, have been able to provide training for teachers to better prepare them for the demands of this new curriculum. Other schools have squandered their resources on canned programs. Too bad for them.

By This is NOT rocket science!

October 31, 2008 10:19 PM | Link to this

Want “world class” schools? No we really don’t, but let’s pretend we do for a moment, shall we?

But please, why do we even pretend that we want a “world class” educational system, when we are too spineless to deal with any but the most extreme of discipline problems in the schools?

By tom

October 31, 2008 10:41 PM | Link to this

Lee,

The US wasn’t performing that well compared to Japan even in the 50’s, unfortunately. White ethnicity isn’t any special, and neither is Asian ethnicity. You are probably attributing the poor performance by the US children to those black and brown kids, but they aren’t inherently better or worse than white kids. You are just looking for an excuse to explain away the mediocre performance by the US schools, and you will have to keep looking.

By tom

October 31, 2008 10:57 PM | Link to this

Tony,

I hope you are right, but what I see does not support your observation. What US teachers lack is the deep understanding of mathematics they are expected to teach - there is no question they can do the math, but their knowledge is deep enough to teach it. As I said before, they come from the US schools where math teaching has been rather unimpressive, and it is VERY difficult to break this cycle.

By Lee

November 1, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this

:::sigh:::

Tom, you’re a perfect example of why the educational system in this country will never get better. Instead of recognizing the inherent ability levels of the students and developing a system that will provide the appropriate level of instruction to each group of students, you prefer to look for the magic pill that will instantly transform a student with an 85 IQ into a Rhodes Scholar.

Ain’t gonna happen.

By tom

November 1, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Lee,

You represent the destructive belief that has led (and will lead) to genocides and racism, attributing “inherent” ability levels to different ethnic groups. No one is claiming everyone can be Rhodes Scholar or Nobel Prize winners. However, we are talking about K-12 education here. Virtually all children can master what is typically required in a K-12 curriculum.

There are mentally challenged children in Japan, too, AND they are in classrooms together with other kids. Japan is an existence proof that it can be done. We have no track record of success by tracking our students, yet you somehow view it as the magic pill to fix education.

The magic pill for education is quality teaching, not how we organize our schools. Without quality teaching, nothing will work, and that’s what’s missing in this country - that is not to say that we don’t have any quality teachers, but they were more exceptions than norms.

By luvs2teach

November 1, 2008 12:57 PM | Link to this

Ok - third times a charm - maybe it didn’t like my links, so link-free this time…

Tom & Lee - Japanese schools have a longer year than we do. That won’t fly here when you have groups like Georgians Need Summers whining about our breaks.

Two - They don’t have “JSOL” - nothing against my ESOL kids - they are some of my best as they often come from homes where education is still valued - however, taking tests in other languages is difficult.

Three - most other countries have rigid exams to get into HS - the better your score, the better your school. What do we have? The empty threat of not passing the CRCT.

Finally - an example of a world class education is the IB program - however most parents, students, and teachers in the US don’t want to work that hard.

For the record, I linked Georgians Need Summers, the Brazilian Vestibular test, an AJC article about 8th graders being promoted despite failing the CRCT twice, and the International Baccalaureate program - you can google any of those if you’re interested.

By tom

November 1, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

L2T,

Yes, there are many factors influencing the results of education. Thus, you can’t just say a single factor, like tracking, or lack thereof, is the reason for the mediocre performance by our schools.

Japanese schools definitely have more school days - about 220 days. HOWEVER, the number of class periods specified by the Ministry of Education for each subject is very much comparable to a typical (if there is such a thing) US school. In math, they are about 150 periods for elementary schools - 1 period is 45 minutes - in their current standards, but they are increasing it to about 170 periods per school year. In the middle school years, the current standards require 105 periods - one period is 50 minutes - and probably increasing it to about 140 periods a year.

It is probably not realistic to expect 170 lessons in a 180-day school year, but I have seen many elementary schools where they spend an hour a day on math, which means about 130 days will result in about the same amount of minutes spent on math. Is it unreasonable to think that elementary classrooms having 130 math lessons in a year? I don’t think so. In middle schools, I think our students are spending much more time in math than Japanese students are. So, I guess what matters is what is happening in those minutes - quality of teaching. Unfortunately, that’s where the problem is - not ESOL or any other issues, as important as they may be.

By catlady

November 1, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

Japanese schools teach to MASTERY. We don’t. Kids that don’t master, in addition to shaming the family, don’t go on to the next level.

BTW, our k-3 spend two hours and twenty minutes on only reading (direct instruction, no language arts, spelling, writing) each day for 180 days per year. This is our 5th year of it and our kids hate reading. Also, although they can decode better, they still have no idea what they are “reading”.

They also spend an hour and ten minutes on math each day. However, since there is no requirement to actually LEARN anything, our math scores continue to go down.

You don’t learn anything unless you are held accountable for MASTERY of it. Until someone in power recognizes this (and is willing to demand it) we will continue to flounder, no matter how many hours per year are spent.

By luvs2teach

November 1, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

tom - I agree quality of teaching is a amjor and important factor, but I think it’s unfair to only look at teaching - methodology, curriculum, readiness, and student epectations all play a part.

I am not a math teacher, so take what I say with a grain of salt. From what I understand, other countries like Japan approach math differently than we do. They also allow their teachers time to work together to improve their lessons - that would be considered a frivolous use of taxpayer dollars here. I don’t think our GPS are really like what the Japanese actually do.

I also believe that the Japanese schools don’t object to skill and drill mastery of facts when necessary like ours do - I have 8th graders still using their fingers to add! They have been exposed to much, yet mastered little.

Finally, the Japanese probably do their homework - not only do ours not, but there are pushes for no homework. My kids are often caught copying and they have utterly no shame about it. They will baltantly do it in HR, right in front of me - and the kids that share their work think they are helping thiers friends!

I’m typing in a hurry and I don’t have time to fully explain all my thoughts on this, but I’m basing some of it on what friends and family members who have taught in Japan have shared as well as articles I have read about the differences - it’s much deeper than teacher quality.

By catlady

November 1, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

On teacher training, I share a room with a person who is certified for middle school math (why is she teaching elementary school) and I have seen at least 4 simple mistakes/ misunderstandings she has put on the board for the kids this year. Luckily (?!) she works with kids who are behind in math so there is no real problem with them learning it wrong. This woman needs some remediation. I have also pushed in with 3 other teachers who need additional coursework in math. Most of the othes I see are at least adequate, however. But it really bothers me; this is not rocket science math.

We have several teachers, including the speech teacher, who say “have went”, so I guess it is not unexpected.

Most teachers I have seen in action are good to terrific, but some need some polishing, IMHO.

By Time for change in ed

November 2, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

Can most elementary school teachers “do the math?” Probably. Is their attitude toward math negative? Sadly, it is often just that.

I have spent much time with high school math teachers and have an immediate family member who has taught at a few universities and works with school systems on math instruction. The stories I’ve heard of teachers passing along their aversion to math are not pretty. (“We have to do fractions today. I know we all hate fractions, but we HAVE to do them…”) Any school system who would use Saxon math obviously has a critical mass of math-haters!

As is mentioned in several posts, until we value education (with math and science now particular weaknesses) as these other countries do, it will be hard to gain ground. Look at Count Down: Six Kids Vie for Glory at the World’s Toughest Math Competition by Steve Olson. When the coach for the IMO moved from eastern Europe, he was amazed and appalled by the general attitude toward math in the U.S. From Amazon (School Library Journal review): Olson’s user-friendly presentation …serves to reinforce his argument that the United States is culturally averse to math compared with much of the rest of the world, and that American educators are definitely on the wrong path.

Just think “If We Ran Our Football Teams as we do our Classrooms… and vice versa” http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/what_would.htm

By HS Teacher, Too

November 3, 2008 8:33 AM | Link to this

Time for change,

You are dead-on. Aa a math teacher, I cringe every time someone says “Oh, I was never good in math,” or “Oh, I hated math…” When the opportunity is right, I actually confront people and ask them to please not speak that way. But I am only able to do that about a quarter of the time, if I am lucky.

And it’s pervasive. It’s English teachers, it’s parents making excuses for their kids’ “inherited” math-aversion, it’s celebrities on Letterman and in People Magazine … it’s everywhere. No one would dare stand up and say “Nah, I can’t read,” but the counter to that of “Nah, I don’t do math,” is a badge of honor.

I couldn’t agree with you more.