Get Schooled

By HS Teacher, Too

October 29, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

I have to say, I am so tired of legislators making these rules and goals that make no sense from the classroom and local school perspective. There are certain students for whom the best option is actually to drop out. What we need to do isn’t to force them to stay, where they create discipline problems and become cancers for the classes in which they sit and for the school as a whole. Instead, we need to let them leave, but provide an alternative school system so that when they decide they want to return to school, there is a forum for them to do so.

Many, if not most, high school teachers have dealt with these kinds of students. Quite frankly, they don’t want to be there, and because of how they express that sentiment, we don’t want them there. They take away from the learning opportunities of the kids who do want to be there. Sure, we should spend some time and effort on the “on-the-fence” kids, or the kids who are in danger of falling to the “wrong” side; but for the kids who have already clearly crossed, let’s let them go out and get their menial jobs. When they realize — if they do; it’s quite possible they’ll be forever content — that they want something more, we can let them come back to part-time evening or morning programs.

I am not advocating pushing these kids out to the welfare system. So I suggest that in addition to these alternative schools, we need to change the welfare rules that you can’t get welfare if you dropped out of school. Or some other such (better-reasoned) rule that protects against kids dropping out to get their check, so to speak.

By TheBlogger

October 29, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

The good news is that at least every State will use the same formula - it will be uniform and useful to compare apples to apples.

The bad news is that the federal government continues to intrude in local school issues.

If there is a rural area where kids know that they will work on their family farm (for example) and want to do so, why should they be forced to finish high school? They can function perfectly well and contriubte to society with an 8th grade education.

All kids should not be forced to finish a high school prep program for college. All kids are not going to college. All kids don’t need the same education. They are not all the same.

And, a high “drop out” rate does not mean that a school is “bad.” Having such a measure will automatically put a blight on a given school when it may have nothing to do with the quality of school.

When did this Country stop celebrating the individual?

By another hs teacher

October 29, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

NCLB doesn’t work because not all parents emphasize the importance of an education. There are kids who seem to think just because their parents have money and some success they will automatically do the same. The problem with NCLB is that these kids go to schools that are making AYP and pull its’ scores down because they aren’t used to the academic standards of the new school. When the kids fail, the parents (and some of the public) blame the schools…not the parents or lack thereof.

By jim d

October 29, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

I really don’t care to be continuously a pessimist but I’m afraid what that while we may see some improvements in Graduation rates, we will notice few salient academic gains.

What we will see MORE of is brand new special interest groups feasting on taxpayer dollars and putting their desires ahead of the children they are supposed to be helping.

But then, in my opinion, that is what NCLB has really been about since day 1

By NCLB=The Mother of All Scams

October 29, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

The entire premise of this blog topic is in error. It’s not designed to improve graduation rates; it was designed to make Bush’s testing buddies rich and designed to make schools fail so that Bush could give vouchers to his buddies in the Christian Taliban.

By HB

October 29, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

While I’m not sure the federal mandated targets are a good idea, I am thrilled at the prospect of decent data. I’ve tried to work with dropout numbers in the past, and the info was terrible!!! Some school systems only reported the complete K-12 numbers. Others gave the drop out rate per grade — 5% of freshman, 7% of sophomores, etc — and then published a misleading average of around 5% (or lower when the published number included K-12), rather than provide the total percent decrease from 9th to 12th grade (but a 2% dropout rate looks better than 40%, right?). Everyone knew the rates were high, but I was shocked at how hard it was to find verifiable numbers. I tried to piece that together myself but couldn’t because the definitions and methodology changed every year making it impossible to accurately compare one year to the next. Forget comparing your state to others — often you can’t compare your state now to itself last year. It isn’t that hard! Standardize how you count already!!!

By RealityKing

October 29, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

The best thing about NCLB is that it gives parents trapped in failing school districts the right to send their children to passing school districts. Who wouldn’t want that opprotunity for their child??

And if our educators had used half the energy they have used on complaining about the NCLB standards, they would have surely been able to find multitudes of ways to improve our progressively disgraced school system. But obviously.., our dumbed down standards of excellence reaches well beyond the student body.

By HS Teacher, Too

October 29, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

RealityKing, Please distinguish between educators and administrators. In many ways, teachers’ hands are tied. Psrticularly among young teachers who are afraid to make waves for the consequences they’d face, there can be a tendency to march in lock-step to follow the rules, however asinine, just to avoid being punished. (Punished for what amount to doing the right thing, no less!)

I couldn’t agree with you more about dumbed down standards. But you know what happens when one teacher tries to uphold rigor and might not hand out As and Bs like candy on October 31? That teacher is run out of the school, by the parents, by an unsupportive local school administration, and by the county administration as well. I’ve seen it happen, and it’s not pretty. So please be mindful that when you condemn “educators,” there’s more to it than just saying what amounts to “teachers suck.”

Now, having said that, I know jim d will be on my tail about teachers standing up for themselves. And he’s not wrong — but it’s much more difficult to DO than it is to stand back and say it needs to be done. I am one teacher who put her money where her mouth is, but I was able to do that because my husband makes enough money to support us, because I’m not a fresh-out-of-college automaton who doesn’t know any better, and because that’s just who I am. There are many more teachers who see what’s wrong but can’t take the risk that speaking up presents, or worse, won’t take it because they don’t want to imagine the consequences. Even organizations designed to fight this very fight folded under school system pressure and subtle threats — see Gwinnett County’s now-defunct Teachers’ Alliance, for one example.

Is there a huge problem with our school system? Yes. Are our standards being dumbed-down beyond repair? Yes. (And I, as well as many other regular posters on this blog can each write a 50-page paper on why that is, and I’m not sure today’s blog is the right forum.) But are teachers the ones to blame for it? Not exclusively, and in some instances, not at all. Let’s start with the local school administrations and work upwards from there.

By mmmm

October 29, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

Well, as expected, we already see some HS teachers basically blaming all others except them for the failure of our HS’s. The only way to improve HS is to hire more quality (not necessarily qualified) teachers. Our HS are filled with incompetent teachers, and there is no wonder so many HS’s are failures.

By donA

October 29, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this

NCLB should rightfully die with the end of the Bush administration. It is a joke unless fully funded.

By Jennifer

October 29, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

Reporting graduation rates by subgroup is critical. It is the only way a spotlight will be shed on these issues.

By fd103

October 29, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

NCLB has been underfunded by over 70 billion dollars since its enactment. Now, with these changes why should we believe that is going to happen? Just another yet sad page in the book of making the states keep up without adequate monies.

Of course this is the same Republican administration that sent troops off to war without adequate equipment. What are we to expect?

By Tony

October 29, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

HB - I’m not convinced the data will be any better. There is no way to track student information from state to state. We have students moving across state lines all the time. We also have no way of tracking them when they go out of the country.

I agree with the one that said some kids need to drop out. When kids reach 16, some become such know-it-alls that they refuse to listen to anyone - even their parents. Then, when they turn 25 they figure out they need an education. Schools should not be penalized because of kids who do this.

By jim d

October 29, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

” I know jim d will be on my tail about teachers standing up for themselves.”

Not today dear, I’ve given up on teachers. much like they have given up on themselves. I am of the mindset that one can not help someone unwilling to help themself.

By Tony

October 29, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

Jennifer, exactly what do we learn from reporting graduation rates by subgroups?

By Rob Smith

October 29, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

We need real change on the Gwinnett School Board. This after total Republican Control. Vote for:

Ravindra Kumar

Jane Hendrix

Meagan Kline

I hope the AJC has the courage to endorse these fine folks !

By HB

October 29, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

Tony, while I’m sure you are correct that the numbers will never be completely accurate, I do believe standardizing will greatly improve matters. Even with some flaws that can’t be fixed (like tracking kids who don’t officially withdraw from their school before enrolling in another state), the numbers can be informative, but we need everyone to have the same flaws so at least their numbers can be compared against each other. As a stats person, I firmly believe that people expect too much “truth” to be revealed by numbers, but good data and analysis that points out not only what the data show but also where they cannot shed light can give a pretty good idea of what’s really going on. In other words, there are degrees of imperfection and standardizing methodology can get us decent ballpark figures, if not absolute accuracy. The reports I saw back around 2000, though, were a train wreck and I’m not sure how they could have been of much use to anyone.

By V for Vendetta

October 29, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

Good point, mmmm!

Oh, wait, who taught you? That’s right, teachers! Wow, they must’ve been an incompetent bunch.

By Harper's Mama

October 29, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

mmmmm, do you send your kids to public school? IF so, why do you do that? Wouldn’t it be easier to simply send them to a private school and wash your hands of the public educational system?

By Mel

October 29, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

The only thing that will help NCLB is to get rid of it.

By jim d

October 29, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this

mmm,

After years of observation, I’m convinced no one is at fault it is merely fate. Some kids were just meant to be dumb. It is part of god’s plan, and I’ve learned not to question him.

By mmmm

October 29, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

V, Yes, I was taught by teachers - but they weren’t American teachers…

HM, Yes, I do have kids, and yes, they do go to public schools. I tried to fill the holes left behind or fix the damages their teachers have done too often. Unfortunately (fortunately???), the amount of effort it takes to provide the corrective measures is a bit less than home schooling (which, I imagine is the best choice). I have no reason to believe that quality of teaching at private schools are any higher, unlike some of the people who advocate school choice appear to blindly believe. However, more recently, I have become much more sympathetic to the school choice movement than I was even 5 years ago.

Based on my personal experiences, HS’s are the worst of the three levels.

By TheBlogger

October 29, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

mmmm

You need help. And, I am referring to the type of help that involves padded rooms.

Have you ever substitue taught at a HS? I am certain that you aren’t certified to teach, but before you ‘go off’ on HS teachers, you really do need to walk in their shoes a bit.

You sound like some of my students sitting in my class that want to tell me how to do my job. Their reasoning is because they have “already had 10 years of school” and so they are now an expert in how to teach. For them, the reality is that they want to do as little as possible and get a high grade. When that doesn’t happen, it is always the teacher’s fault.

And, if they do complete HS, they may go off to college unprepared, and then of course they again blame the HS teacher.

HS teachers end up with students that have been pampered and socially promoted through elementary and middle schools. Some of them never passed any CRCT and yet are magically promoted all of the way to 9th grade. Some of them cannot read or write or do basic math (add or subtract), yet they are still magically promoted all of the way to 9th grade.

These very students land in the 9th grade unprepared to do any high school level work, unwilling to put forth any effort (Why should they? They have always passed anyway!) and if, God forbid, a teacher actually asked them to learn anything or to do any work will quickly scream murder and blame the teacher. And, these very students fully expect to have careers as medical doctors, lawyers, etc.

Are all HS teachers perfect? Of course not. But don’t fault any group like that until you have at least tried it.

By catlady

October 29, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

The best thing to come out of NCLB is the poster-child status it provides in what NOT to do:

Don’t make policy to enrich your friends and bilk the taxpayers!

Don’t make policy unless you have some experience and knowledge in the area you are deciding about! “Going to school” for 12 years does NOT count as experience.

NCLB, as a whole, is a result of assembing a never-before-seen donkey by way of poorly translated instructions from China, put together by blind men with 3 thumbs on each hand.

I hope our new President will chuck it completely. It has little to redeem it. It is the pornography of education.

Do you understand my opinion?

By mmmm is Jeff in Drag!

October 29, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

mmmm is typical of an ignorant troll who frequents sites and offers their pathetic two cents worth trying to get a rise from the posters. Ignore this piece of human excrement and hopefully he/she will go away.

By mmm or Jeff or who?

October 29, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this

It’s amusing HS teachers like TheBlogger will accuse mmmm (or Jeff or whoever s/he is) because s/he has not walked in HS teachers’ shoes - how they know this as a fact is a bit of mystery - yet they seem to have no problem accusing of all others for not providing them with perfect students who will learn no matter who their teachers are. Whenever someone questions the quality of schools, teachers in this forum seem to point their fingers at all others except themselves. Just an observation - a pretty accurate one, I think. They seem to have no problem accusing of administrators or school board members, but as far as I can tell, those HS teachers have never been a principal or a board member. Maybe time to practice what you preach.

By HS Teacher, Too

October 29, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this

jim d, You know, I am not sure that teachers have given up on themselves. There are lots of teachers out there who do fight the good fight, albeit in subtle ways, in their own classrooms. For the poor masses of most teachers, though — well, quite frankly, I’m not sure you can give up on yourself if you’re still not really aware that there is a problem. And that, in and of itself, is a problem!

You and I are on the same page on this issue. I just hate that sometimes I feel like you generalize to all teachers, when the proper expression should better be “many,” or even “most.”

By HS Teacher, Too

October 29, 2008 8:17 PM | Link to this

Mmm or Jeff or who, I will raise my hand and say that as a teacher (well, more properly, a former teacher), I do make every effort to try to overcome what I think are wrongs handed to me by the administrators. And I’m no fool — their hands are tied, in turn, by their superiors, and so on down the line. I am not sure if you are referring to my comments from earlier today, but what I was trying to say was that indeed, there are a great many teachers who do NOT stand up to fight what GOOD teachers know are WRONG with the system. But there are some of us who do, in our own ways, do as much as we can. (Or in my case, who did as much as we could.) The problem is that even then, sometimes we are overruled by administrators who are — in turn — trying to make their superiors happy.

You’re right that I have never been a principal, but it doesn’t take a lot of experience to know the best way to manage is to support your employees when they deserve it. To that end, if a principal or other administrator sees something that everyone with half a brain knows is the WRONG thing for the kids, and yet doesn’t go to bat for the teachers on the staff who are trying to do the RIGHT thing, well, then, those administrators are part of the problem.

But keep in mind, that is not to say that there are entire schools full of teachers who want to call the system’s bluff. Quite the contrary, I am afraid — many, if not most, teachers are happy to do what they are told, make no waves, and wait out the tide. THAT is the real shame.

There’s a lot I am sure that I do and did wrong as a classroom teacher, but I will say this unequivocally: I ALWAYS did what I thought was right, best, and fair for my students. And when that meant breaking the rules, I did it. So, yes, I get offended when people point to teachers as what’s wrong with the system. Because there are some of us — indeed, many of us — who do work hard, every day, to buck that system. And all we get is kicked in the ribs, time and again.

By tom

October 29, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

HS Teachers, Too,

I think you deserve to be commended for such an even handed post. I think what mmmm/Jeff/Whoever is pointing out, though, is that too many teachers here, unlike you, are very quick to disregard any critical comment from anyone who they perceive to be non-teachers as invalid and irrelevant because they are not teachers. Just as you noted, you as a teacher can be justified to criticize administrators even though you aren’t one - and you hope that administrators will listen to your criticism. In the same way, non-teachers can make critical observations even though they themselves are not classroom teachers. The fact they are not classroom teachers does not make their criticism invalid, just as your criticism of administrators isn’t invalidated because you are not an administrator.

By Lee

October 29, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

Let’s see, I’m not a teacher nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn last night, but when I read a post from a teacher that says “Some of them [high school students] cannot read or write or do basic math (add or subtract), yet they are still magically promoted all of the way to 9th grade.”

Just as one does not have to be a CPA to realize the tax code is a mess, one does not have to be a teacher to realize that when schools graduate illiterates, something is wrong with the schools.

The first rule of politics is to “first, create a crisis.”

Unfortunately, they did not have to create a crisis in our schools. The school systems served one up on a silver platter.

By NCLB sucks

October 30, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

Lee, 99% of teachers will agree with your comment above. But understand that teachers are “stuck” teaching to many students who have given up, do not have the “tools” (intelligence) to understand basic concepts or simply aren’t willing to learn. Kids today, as in every generation before them, think they know it all. Combine that attitude with slacker parenting and all the other influences around and you have a big problem. Years ago kids could quit school or get kicked out and find some way to make an honest living, that isn’t the case today. But that doesn’t seem to be a problem for some kids, they plan on “making that paper” by less than honest means. Teachers are not magicians.

By bearcasey

October 30, 2008 9:24 AM | Link to this

Oh my! I find it hard to believe that the American people are stupid enough to believw “W’s” NCLB blather. Compare my son’s resources (2 parents with Masters degrees who can both write a check for $250,000) with those of a child born to an unwed mother of 17. How can the latter child NOT be left behind regardless of what a school does? Just silly! We simply won’t let it happen.

By jim d

October 30, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

Bear,

“We simply won’t let it happen.”

You just haven’t been listening, my friend.

Appears one of our presidential hopefuls wants to share your wealth with that 17 year old unwed, jobless mother.

Think long and hard before voting.

By V for Vendetta

October 30, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this

JimD,

And what has McCain proposed? I know, I know, your beloved vouchers. Look, lets be real here, he’s not going to be around long enough (three more months? six more months?) to get it done; then Palin will take over and the United States will be sucked into Dante’s final ring of Hell. Other than vouchers, McCain has been mum on the subject of education, and in this nuevo-Republican economy, no one can afford to go to college anyway. And his running mate doesn’t ever appear to have received her education, so there’s always that … .

:-)

By TheBlogger

October 30, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

jim d -

Let’s be perfectly clear about this. Bush and republicans (including McCain) lowered taxes on the most wealthy (top 5%) and also on corporations shifting the burden of taxes clearly on the shoulders of the middle class people. This is one clear explanation of why during these economic times the most wealthy in the US have gotten even more wealthy.

Obama simply wants to return to the tax rates on the wealthy that were in place during the Reagan era. Thus, the burden of taxes will be more evenly shared among all Americans.

You nor I nor anyone reading this is in the top 5%. If you think you are, you are plain wrong. People in the top 5% would be the large corporate CEOs, Ted Turner, Donald Trump, Warren Buffet, etc. And, I just don’t believe that those are the people on this blog.

Think long and hard about this before you vote.

By jim d

October 30, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

If you make $200,000 i won’t raise yor taxes.

What happened to the 250,000 and 300,000 benchmarks he started with?

I have several other issues that are more complicated and probably not appropriate for this blog.

I’m going to vote now, y’all have a good one

By Harper's Mama

October 30, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Back on topic. A Nation at Risk clearly stated the problem 25 years ago. A Nation Accountable clearly states that the only entity to improve its standards are colleges, and that is sketchy, when you really look at it. The amount of money thrown at schools has not improved education. The amount of government involvement has hurt education and its standards.
Now, if we are not careful, laziness will be diagnosed as a disability because it’s just too hard to…well, do anything.
High expectations equal high standards equal high achieving students. We are all accountable for that. Instead of finger pointing, we must, as a collective whole, work together to ensure that our expectations are set to a higher standard and make sure that we model that standard for our children. That means holding teachers, parents, students, principals, school board members, senators, congressmen, everyone accountable for the education of our youth.