Get Schooled

By chris

October 17, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

As a 2004 College Graduate (Bachelor’s of Science) who attended Junior College first, I must say that the SAT scores mean absolutely nothing. Just as your high school gpa means nothing when you have a college degree. What needs to happen is that Colleges need to help each other out. Form some sort of coalition, I am sure one already exists, and go out to different industry leaders to find out what they are wanting in their college graduates. What information do students need to know to enter into the industry, as well as excell in the industry. Obviously some industries will be have more stringent requirements, but some should. Point being, the test scores only allow colleges to evenly evaluate students from various states and high schools. The emphasis on the SAT needs to be less, it is only an entrance exam. The emphasis needs to be put on how well those students perform once they get in.

By Dave

October 17, 2008 9:59 AM | Link to this

All Students who improve their knowledge base and education level are to be commended regardless of their future college plans. However I have seen first hand, classes specifically designed and taught not to increase knowledge but to prepare the students for a particular set or type of test.

If the local education system and curriculum was doing it’s job, there would be no need to have preparation classes. Whether a student scores high on a standardized test or not should not be the only standard used to prove the effectiveness of the school system. It is great for the Colleges that more kids enter and pay their tuition, but will they graduate? Will they have a rounded education or will they continue to be trained into a particular mold? Being educated is more than just being trained to pass a test.

Look at the statistics nation wide comparing wages between so called blue and white collar jobs. I have known persons with masters degrees working as general labor because it paid better than jobs in his field of study.

By Jim Thomas

October 17, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

Oh there are so many problems with comparing groups of SAT scores. Eastern states tend to have much higher participation rates, where in Western states it tends to be only the more academically elite kids going “back East” who take the SAT. So the averages are WAY skewed. I am one of those 99th percentile SAT takers, and every time I took the test I became more convinced of its unfairness. I could see the little traps each question was setting to separate the slightly above average kids from the solidly above average kids. I think the primary purpose of the SAT is to imply that the bell curve is flat. That is, it tends to exaggerate the fairly minor differences between kids who are average and kids who are slightly higher or lower than average. This makes things easier for college admissions automation, but it is not a fair representation of relatively minor differences in academic potential.

By Mark

October 17, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

Standardized test are the work of law makers that really need to keep their hands out of education. With that said, lets look at this. In Texas and Tennessee I have seen schools teach the required standardized test so as the students score higher. Yet, when you ask these same students questions about the subjects they either do not know the answer or the answer is lacking in substance. No Child Left Behind is a good idea in theory, however it also treats each of our children as they all learn in the same manner. It does not work that way. Every person is different no matter what some politician or so called educator thinks. Get rid of standardized test and teaching, then teach the kids in such a way that they can learn the material. Knowledge is the key the future, or at least that is what I have been told.

By Bill

October 17, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

As someone who was forced to take an SAT prep class at my high school in Pennsylvania, I can say that the class was a waste of my time and didn’t improve my scores. The SAT should not need to be taught to. It tests basic things that most should have learned in middle and early high school.

In the end the SAT is just a test that can be used to compare students from different states or high schools against each other objectively.

By rosie

October 17, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

Why do we have track events in schools? Why can’t the rule be “run 100 metres in less than 30 minutes”. School exams are meant for grouping students into different grades but that is not good enough. SAT is meant to diffentiate students at individual level based on their ability. I am not meant to go to Stanford, play NBA or become a rock star. Accept, people are born with varying skills.

By senojjones

October 17, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

There is such a disparency in the quality of education in this country that some standardized test is needed.

It’s relatively easy to get A’s in the local public schools, an A from my son’s pvt school is a major achievement.

One comment that you keep hearing from colleges is that students with excellent transcripts struggle in college. I suspect it’s a reflection of the poor quality of education in many of our public schools.

A high SAT Score, >1400, is a meaningful reflection of intellectual development, and a kid with a high score deserves to be rewarded. He/she has worked hard to get it. And as an educator of 20 years at a graduate level, that is the kind of student that I want in my class.

By rosie

October 17, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

Jim Thomas, I agree, you nailed it. SAT scores are WAY skewed. In the name of standardization they skew the scores. Also the scores are given in steps of 10 to accentuate the difference. Moreover, in some tests, like MATH II you get 800 even if you miss some questions whereas in others you miss one you get 760 in order to mimick the past years scoring. It is far from perfect.

By jim d

October 17, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

I agree with everything said above so “lets abolish government opperated schools”

How long would you keep paying a mechanic to fix your car after he had consistantly demonstrated an inability to perform the task?

By high school teacher

October 17, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

jimd, out of curiosity, did you send your kids to public school or private school?

By jim d

October 17, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

Both.

I hope that is found a satisfactory response.

By I taught Jim D's Kid

October 17, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

He sent his kid to public school. Thank God that his son graduated. As a parent Jim D was a pain in the a@@!

By TheBlogger

October 17, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

jim d-

You are really confusing. Some of your posts sound so positive towards public schools, while others (like your most recent) are so negative.

By No Child Left Behind is NOT a good idea

October 17, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

Can we stop with the lie that “No Child Left Behind” was a good intentioned policy that was ok in theory?

It is not, and has never been, designed to help schools. In fact it was designed to make schools “fail” as a way of justifying vouchers.

How else to explain a law that states if one hundred percent of students don’t pass a test, the entire school is a failure?

There is no other way to explain it, than it was a bad law, with bad intentions. If those who support vouchers want to make a case, let them make an honest case, rather than set schools and teachers up for failure then blaming them for the failure by saying if one hundred percent of their students don’t pass, they aren’t even “adequate.”

By jim d

October 17, 2008 12:51 PM | Link to this

I taught Jim D’s Kid,

I rather doubt you taught him much.

Blogger,

Sorry if you find this confusing, I’ll attempt to explain,

In my opinion Public schools do some things well. Some things they do poorly if at all.

I am a firm believer in CHOICE.

I have a low tolerance towards those that feel public schools operated by the government are capable of making their cookie cutter (one size fits all) style education work for all students.

And I have zero tolerance for anyone that fails to respect parents and/or students rights. Which includes but is not limited to the majority of the GCPS admintrative staff working at the central offices. And I’m afraid I hold teachers that shouldn’t be teaching in much the same esteem.

I do however have a great deal of respect and admiration for teachers that have demonstrated they are there for the students, regardless of the pressure brought upon them from jerk administartors.

I certainly hope that clears any confusion.

By jim d

October 17, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

No Child Left Behind is NOT a good idea,

Actually it wasn’t about vouchers. It was about money for Bush, family and friends. Once they pulled it off in Texas they were hunting larger game.

By HS Teacher, Too

October 17, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

There is a skill to test-taking in general, and for a classroom teacher to spend some time on general test-taking strategy and approach in general is a life lesson that does, in fact, belong in a classroom. When that crosses the line (the river, perhaps, because it’s such a wide gap) to teaching to the test, I have a problem with that. The poster who said that students should be able to do well on a standardized test because they know the material, not because they drilled to the test, is 100% correct. How meaningful is a test if classroom teachers spend the two weeks leading up to it doing nothing else but drilling for said test?

I think that anyone who points to “improvement” (in scores, in attendance, in anything) as a means for measurement is clearly lacking a sense of statistics and the law of diminishing returns. Essentially, schools that are already in the 90th percentiles are “punished” (for lack of a better word) because there is very little improvement left, and because the jump from 95% to 96%, for example, is often exponentially more difficult, than the jump from 50% to 70%. For that matter, the jumps in the top percentiles are often, for all practical purposes, impossible. Sure, we should always strive to do better, but there comes a point where we have to admit that we are doing a fine job and we need to keep it up; not keep trying to do better. It may not be possible to do better.

(For example, a school may have a given attendance rate ot 95%. This is a made-up number, of course. But, depending on the number of students in the school, to get any better than 95% may effectively mean that children can’t get sick. It’s theoretically possible, but neither realistic nor practical.)

By Well jim d

October 17, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Well jim d, maybe vouchers wasn’t the reason, but vouchers was the hook to fool the gullible public.

The sad thing is, there really are reasons to have a legitimate debate about vouchers, without setting teachers up to fail like No Child Left Behind does.

Folks need to remember, that giving parents choices outside the government monopoly, also gives teachers more choices as well.

By Why, Jim?

October 17, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

jim d - why would you leave your child in a system that you hold such little regard for, with teachers who you doubt taught him much? That seems abusive.

By Lee

October 17, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

Meanwhile……

The folks that administer the SAT are laughing all the way to the bank.

What started out as a simple entrance exam to allow colleges to evaluate applicants from various school systems has turned into a currency printing press.

SAT, PSAT, royalties from various SAT Prep courses, etc, etc, etc. Once, only those students with an interest in attending college took the exam. Now, many states administer the test to everydamnbody.

Might be interesting to “follow the money.”

By high school teacher

October 17, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

“follow the money…”

The College Board is all about money. Do you know how much money the State pays to the College Board so that high school students state-wide can have access to the online SAT prep program? How about cutting that from the education budget?

Most kids take the SAT at least twice - that’s $90 in registration fees per student. I wonder how many students in the nation take the SAT each year. That’s a lot of money to follow…

By darren

October 17, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

sorry…testing…please ignore

By darren

October 17, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

testing again…comments not showing up

By All Hail Jim D

October 17, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

Jim D you sure have a lot of complaints about public schools. What if anything in the real world are you doing to help change what you don’t like?

By Bronc

October 17, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

I had a schoolmate that scored 1580 on the SAT test. He received a full scholarship and p** it away. Worked as a postal worker for years and then stole checks from the mail. High scores on the SAT mean nothing in the true life experiences.

By Old School

October 17, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

I’d like to see a wee bit o’ emphasis put on the COMPASS test (entry exam for technical college) It’s not the cakewalk most think it is.

By Perfect Score

October 17, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

High SAT scores and intellegence have a strong correlation. I do not believe a kid can get a perfect 800 unless they have raw intellectual horsepower. We may not like to admit it, but the smart kids get high scores on the SATs.

By Perfect Score

October 17, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

SAT scores and intellegence have a strong correlation. I do not believe a kid can get a perfect 800 unless they have raw intellectual horsepower. We may not like to admit it, but the smart kids get high scores on the SATs.

By grownup

October 17, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

I made 850 on my SAT’s mainly because I flunked the entire math section, I didn’t know algebra and didn’t need it to graduate back in 1988. I was in my 30’s when I found out I didn’t even need a SAT score to enter college after 5 years being out of high school. Too late now, married, kids, mortgage, and no interest. But I wish I had known that little fact back in 1993 because I would have gone. I’m great at learning, horrible test taker. Could have been a video game designer…oh well!

By MBW

October 17, 2008 6:09 PM | Link to this

The SAT is fundamentally a reasoning test. Sure there are some basic skills that you can brush up on that will help you do better….but ultimately it comes down to problem solving and reasoning.

It’s designed to help colleges get a sense of a student’s ability to succeed in college.

By Just Sayin'

October 17, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this

It seems that the folks who complain about the tests tend to be the ones whose schools/kids aren’t doing well on them.

By art

October 17, 2008 6:14 PM | Link to this

The SAT and ACT are the only OBJECTIVE measures of student performance other than IQ tests.

People who criticize standardized tests are usually the people who don’t do well on them and usually thsoe of substandard intelligence (below 100 on an IQ test).

The SAT has been shown many times to have a direct correlation with learning, the main reason why it is still in use today.

If I were a colelge admissions officer, I would screen applicants based on SAT first, then GPA, the application material.

Quality of schools varies widely from place to place, even in the same county. Thus, the GPA is unreliable.

The SAT is where it’s at. Behind the “at”.

By HS Teacher, Too

October 17, 2008 6:33 PM | Link to this

grownup,

Unfortunately, you couldn’t have been a video game designer if you tried to go to college to do it — computer science requires lots of math and linear algebra. Sounds like you got poor advice and didn’t have someone advocating for you, asking the right questions. That’s a shame. Hopefully you’re able to ask questions and advocate for your kids, so the cycle stops with you.

By Paula

October 17, 2008 7:27 PM | Link to this

My son took the SAT in the 7th grade as part of the Duke TIP program. He scored 100 points higher than the Cobb County average and state average. I believe the majority of the Cobb County and state test takers were juniors or seniors taking the same test. The test was very informative to me and to my son. After seeing the test scores I decided to keep him in private school. No, his school did not teach the test. I gave him a study guide and wished him luck. He succeeded on his own.

Regarding the SAT, how should colleges assess the students’ ability? If a student is admitted that cannot perform and learn the material, then the college is burdened with bringing this student up to speed. Colleges and universities cannot accept high school grades alone because so many of those grades are inflated. A test, whether SAT or ACT, is necessary to measure the student’s real ability.

By Jim

October 17, 2008 8:10 PM | Link to this

18 year public school teaching veteran here.

I haven’t visited an AJC education blog in a long time. The link to this one got my attention.

No, the SAT is not pointless or invalid (and the College Board is NOT “all about money”), but yes the SAT is overemphasized. No child of mine is ever going to get near an SAT prep class. Studious attentiveness to regular academic classes is all the SAT prep anyone ought to need (except in special cases), and the time would be better spent on a truly fulfilling elective.

The Governor’s Cup (which a school I taught in won) should be renamed, “Let’s All Stop Embarassing the Governor and His Political Party Award.”

By Dr. Craig Spinks/Augusta

October 17, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

Inasmuch as the SAT essentially measures high-level Reading, Math and Writing skills, to the extent that these skills are the bases for success in college and life thereafter, the test itself is important.

By bigguy

October 17, 2008 8:41 PM | Link to this

Chris,

Maybe your proposed research would reveal the need to spell correctly.

By Fred

October 17, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

Just damn, if you can’t pass a simple exam then WHAT have you learned? Oh wait, Laura Diamond has provided that answer. Get an award for showing up to school (how hard is that), or for “graduating” (how hard is THAT if there are no standards for doing so and no means, testing, of who graduates and why.) Sounds to me like Laura Diamond is dumber than dog squeeze and graduated because she showed up to school and because she showed up to school she got a pretty little diploma. Those people who got that same little diploma that actually learned and PERFORMED? Screw them, they should have concentrated more on “showing up” and being cute and popular. I mean these are the things, showing up, being cute and popular, that actually MEAN something in life. Learning and performing are just SO last century…………..

By luvs2teach

October 17, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this

Paula, what you might want to tell people on this blog who are not familiar with the Duke TIP (Talent Identification Program) is that it is for highly gifted students - generally those in the 160 IQ and up range.

Kudos on your son’s natural gifts, but before people start comparing any county’s juniors’ and seniors’ results to your son’s, they need to understand the difference. If your child is gifted enough to get into the Duke program, then he is gifted enough to succeed on the test with no prep, and at a level equivalent to or better than an average high schooler.

The whole point of a program like Duke’s using the SAT (or ACT) on 7th graders is to get a test high enough above where they are to be able to determine a level. “On-level” norm-referenced tests such as the ITBS will typically only show a student like your son to be in the 99%ile - as well as many other children nationwide. By presenting a significantly more difficult test, is it possible to find a “ceiling” score, and thus effectively cull the briliant wheat from the merely intelligent chaff.

I’m glad you kept him in private school, because those generally that gifted are about as well served in a typical school as someone on the corresponding left-side of the Bell curve.

By Mike D

October 17, 2008 10:40 PM | Link to this

Jim Martin is a big lying turd of a human. He is hitting Saxby with only half of the fair tax issue. This lying POS should be punished to bankruptcy

By Tony

October 17, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this

SAT is not a test that can indicate the quality of a school. It can easily indicate the wealth of the area the school serves. Results of tests like SAT, ITBS and other nationally normed tests are much more strongly correlated to family income than any other single criterion.

Statistically speaking, the average score for the state will be closer to the center when a larger sample takes the test. In Georgia, a very high number of students takes the test so it is only natural for the average to be, well, average. That’s the way averages work.

Too much emphasis has been placed on testing by political and business forces. The natural result of all the emphasis on testing is that the curriculum will be dumbed down because schools will only spend time teaching what is on the test. There will be no time for other important learning. I’m not just talking about music and art, either.

These tests are mostly multiple choice, so schools are blindly building in more “test practice” into the daily routines of students. What should be happening is the schools should be allowing students to work on more advanced learning. Topics of interest should be allowed. These things are being squeezed out because they are not on the test.

In addition to the required testing, school systems are now adding benchmark testing as a way of “improving instruction”. The reality is the curriculum is further narrowed. What’s next?

By Hank

October 18, 2008 3:56 AM | Link to this

Of course schools should be rewarded for good SAT scores. The only honest way to evaluate students is tests. I get so tired of people who kids are not learning anything in low level classes and think they should get a free pass when they can’t pass standardized test. Every year there is some kid who takes the high graduation test 5 times and can’t pass and then wants to go to graduation anyway. From what I understand if you can find your way to the bus stop you can pass the test.
What other way would you decide what kids are ready for college if you didn’t use a standard test. If you left it up to the schools there would be schools where everyone was ready to go to Harvard. I would totally corrupt college admissions system.

By Cara

October 18, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

My daughter, a poor test taker, did horribly on the SAT. She was an honor roll student through high school, but got nervous when taking tests. No university would take her with her miserably low SAT scores. Thank heavens for junior colleges. Last May, she graduated from UGA With HONORS! My point, SATs aen’t always a good indicator of success in college.

By grim

October 18, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

Every standardized test I ever took in school said the same thing about me-average in math and science, above average in reading, language, comprehension, social studies…I am so right brained it’s crazy. My SAT scores said very little about what I could accomplish. In fact, I was accepted into a Summer honors program the summer between my junior and senior years of high school at the college I did attend. In spite of what you would call pitiful SAT scores, I was extremely successful in college, and have two degrees for my hard work. Granted, I did work for what I earned, not every student is like me. My point is, SAT scores don’t tell everything about the student…it’s a picture within the big picture. You have to look at the whole picture.

By Mr, R

October 18, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

Now, if everyone did there job, everything would be okay… Teachers, parents, students,media, everybody….

Let’s define jobs…

Teachers must present the material and do everything they can to promote mastery.

Parents must set the level of expectation and accept nothing less than effort and performance toward that level of expectation.

Students must attend classes and actually do the work assigned and give forth the effort to do their best.

The media must fairly report all aspects of the SAT comparison process, including the actual sample of test-takers and compare those that take the tests according to the groups that take them. Apples to apples, if you will. If everyone in Georgia is encouraged to take the test, and many do, everyone in other states should do so, to. In other states, low performing (non-college bound) are not encouraged to take the SAT and few do.

It’s easy to blame the teachers. Let’s look at the parents of test-takers that send them to school and don’t hold their own children accountable for performance. It can’t be the fault of their kids! It must be the teachers and school system who assign, teach, and cajole performance… (BTW-Teachers today work much harder than those of yesteryear that stood in front of the class and delivered the material. Parents held their students much more accountable years ago.)

And, let’s report it fairly. Look at who takes it where.

The AJC could look into this and be a real advocate for getting the truth, but the truth isn’t nearly sensational enough to report.

By kimj

October 18, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

When my mom and dad graduated from high school and entered college in the 1940’s and 1950’s they did not have exit exams from high school nor did they have to take an entrance exam to get into college.

My daughter, who graduated from high school in 2000 and also was chosen to take the SAT in 7th grade, was hindered at every step of her college career because of her low score on the math portion of the SAT when she took it in high school. We had her tested at UGA and found out that she has a disability connected to numbers. Her score on the verbal section was close to perfect. She was made to take Algebra I & II over and over again which was torture for her and totally unnecessary. Obviously she was not heading toward a degree in anything that required a knowledge of higher math.

These tests need to be stopped!! Let our children continue their educations based on their strengths and interests and stop punishing them for their weaknesses.

By RJ

October 18, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

Based upon the research, the SAT does not deserve the prominence it enjoys in either college ranking or admission standards. The research results is clear and anequivocal, the SAT IS Not a good predictor of success in college or in life. College admission officials have known this for years but continue to misuse the SAT because numerically it is easier for them to conduct their applicant review program. What a shame!

By catlady

October 18, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

Before the SAT/ACT, colleges gave their own entrance tests. You showed up on the appointed day and took the test at the college you hoped to get into. Less demanding colleges probably had no test.

Standardized college exams would not be necessary if education was the business model some seem to think it should be. All courses, all high schools, all grading would be regimented. The students coming out would be neatly branded. Unfortunately, we have dumbed things down so that the bottom graduating students are sometimes barely literate.

Out here in the real world, we need a way to distinguish students who are ready for more advanced work. Seeing students with all As who have a 940 on the SAT (math and LA parts) should make folks sick, especially when you are spotted 400 points just for sitting for the exam. AP classes were supposed to be a leveling agent, but many high schools do not offer many common AP classes.

Furthermore, IMHO, students who “do not test well” to the degree that it substantiallty interferes with their ability to do “well enough” on the SAT or ACT to get into a certain school are gonna have a heck of a time in college when they are tested! If you cannot pull a good enough score to be admitted to UGA, for example, you are going to have a tough time making through the UGA curriculum with the other kids who scored high enough to be admitted. I am NOT saying you have no chance of graduating, but it would be sure be tough. We all know a few kids who have succeeded despite difficult odds, but for every one of them there are a hundred who did not.

Here in GA we have many levels of college education that are available to students of varying skill levels and interests. The SAT/ACT is one way to help students identify where they might best fit in academically. It also helps the taxpayers avoid paying for a student who is unlikely to be able to do the work that institution requires. I, for one, think college students SHOULD be able to do well on these tests if they are truly 4 year college material. If not, they should refine their skills at one of the two year colleges, which provide excellent beginning level work, as well as remedial work.

By catlady

October 18, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

BTW, I think those review courses are a waste of money for most kids. They rely a great deal on their “improvements” being actually explained by regression toward the mean, rather than much special value added. They can help students with strategies, but they cannot make that proverbial silk purse.

By Old School

October 18, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

The SAT seems to be scheduled for Saturday mornings from 8 to 12 with no breaks. Students are usually encouraged to get a good night’s sleep, eat a good breakfast and come prepared.

Honestly, how many teenagers habitually get a good night’s sleep and eat a good breakfast?

What if the test began at 1:00 p.m. and ended at 5:00 p.m.? Would we see at least a modest improvement in scores?

By Choice

October 18, 2008 7:47 PM | Link to this

Here’s something to think about - as a tax paying property owner, my taxes support all public schools in my district, good and bad. If I want to send my child to one of the better schools, when it is clear that my neighborhood school is underperforming AND my child has demonstrated they have the capacity for more challenging studies, why am I prohibited from making that choice? Why am I forced to pay for a school that is not meeting standards? Isn’t that a waste of schools funds?

If your neighborhood restuarant consistently received health inspection ratings in the 60s or low 70s, you would stop going to the venue and it should close or seek new management. Why are we so reluctant to hold schools to the same standard?

I don’t support vouchers for private school use (they will just raise the tuition cost anyway). I do support vouchers that will allow you to seek out the best public school and transfer your child without waiting for your school to fail.

By Is what it is

October 18, 2008 8:08 PM | Link to this

SAT means nothing in the real word. I am pretty sure everyone on Wall Street had high SAT scores, however they are all scratching their heads and don’t know how to fix the financial disaster that is ocurring now. Besides, it doesn’t matter if you score 400 or 1400. When you don’t pay your mortgage, you all are OUT ON THE STREETS, and if your company shuts down you all are UNEMPLOYED. You can have a 1400 SAT score and have 500 credit score and won’t be able to buy a car, own a home, or in some cases get a job. Yes jobs check credit scores not SAT scores. Creditors certainly don’t give a damn about your high SAT score. In fact, low credit scores mean turn down not touch down. Instead of focusing on SAT scores, lets put emphasis on credit 101 (which is not taught in school and should be). SAT is SMOKING MIRRORS. Sara Palin’s future son-in-law is not taking the SAT, in fact he is going to work in the oil industry. I guess the SAT is like that bridge in Alaska. It is the TEST TO NOWHERE (Wink Wink). In the real world the bottom line SAT=SOL.

By Is what it is

October 18, 2008 8:11 PM | Link to this

SAT means nothing in the real word. I am pretty sure everyone on Wall Street had high SAT scores, however they are all scratching their heads and don’t know how to fix the financial disaster that is ocurring now. Besides, it doesn’t matter if you score 400 or 1400. When you don’t pay your mortgage, you all are OUT ON THE STREETS, and if your company shuts down you all are UNEMPLOYED. You can have a 1400 SAT score and have 500 credit score and won’t be able to buy a car, own a home, or in some cases get a job. Yes jobs check credit scores not SAT scores. Creditors certainly don’t give a damn about your high SAT score. In fact, low credit scores mean turn down not touch down. Instead of focusing on SAT scores, lets put emphasis on credit 101 (which is not taught in school and should be). SAT is SMOKING MIRRORS. Sara Palin’s future son-in-law is not taking the SAT, in fact he is going to work in the oil industry. I guess the SAT is like that bridge in Alaska. It is the TEST TO NOWHERE (Wink Wink). In the real world the bottom line SAT=SOL.

By HS Teacher, Too

October 18, 2008 8:38 PM | Link to this

kimj, you said your daughter, “was hindered at every step of her college career because of her low score on the math portion of the SAT when she took it in high school.”

I’m not sure I understand how her SAT score could hinder her at every step of her college career. Are you talking about her process of applying to colleges? Or, if you’re talking about specific incidents that happened while she was in college, please do explain.

And please note that I am not asking this to be antagonistic. Quite the opposite, actually. I’ve never heard of this and would like to learn more.

On another note, there are many people who have posted about how the SAT was not a good predictor of college success for a particular person (themselves or their child). What these folks are overlooking is that NO ONE claims that the SAT is a predictor for EVERY INSTANCE. What it is, however, is a decent predictor for the big picture.

My LSATS said I should have blown law school out of the water. Instead, I ended up quite sick my first year of law school and did okay, but not as well as I could have done, not as well as I would have done had I been healthy, and surely not as well as my LSATs would have “predicted” for the law school who admitted me. There are some students who do great at standardized tests, but hate school. Other kids are terrible at tests and do well at school. FOR THE MAJORITY, HOWEVER, there is a correlation between SAT scores and college performance. That’s ALL the SAT (and college admissions) departments claim. They need some sort of objective measure. Don’t test well? Make up for it in other aspects of your application and you’ll more than likely be fine.

Old School, your question about when we give standardized tests is the same question I think we’ve discussed (long ago) on this blog about school start times. Evidence clearly shows high school kids do better later in the day, and elementary kids do better bright and early — but their school schedules are exactly opposite of what they “should” be!

catlady, a hearty amen to everything!

Have a great weekend, folks.

By college student

October 18, 2008 9:46 PM | Link to this

I achieved perfect scores on each of the 3 sections of the SAT and PSAT at least one time. I took no prep classes- just went into the test as a lifelong reader who had taken advanced math classes as well.

The SAT is a perfectly fair test and is NOT HARD. The math section is basic algebra and geometry, the verbal section is vocabulary and reading comprehension, and the writing section is grammar. All of these things are basic skills that any high school graduate should have. Scoring low rarely means that a student “doesn’t test well.” It usually means that they have not mastered the skills of high achieving students. With the grade inflation that is rampant at many low-achieving and even some high-achieving schools, the SAT is the only objective way of measuring whether a college applicant has mastered the skills necessary to succeed in college.

By the way, I went to Georgia public schools and I could not have been prepared better for the elite university that I attend. It’s true that most Georgia schools have low average SAT scores and even the top ones only have in the 1600-1700 out of 2400 range, but look for data about the SAT scores of the top 10% of the last graduating class- this can be a much better indicator of a school’s strength since the top 10% are likely those in the Honors/AP classes.

By Another teacher

October 18, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this

I have taught in a school for years with a wide range of SAT scores. Not surprisingly, students with low averages and poor preparation have lower scores. But all our students, good and bad, are encouraged to attempt both the ACT and SAT since a good score on either test could facilitate admission to a desired college. Our focus is unswerving dedication to serving the students’ needs.

It would be a simple matter to discourage the SAT for all but the best students, as is true in many schools. Since the ACT is all but ignored by news organizations, we might even get headlines commending our stellar academic performance, if only our honor students attempted the SAT.

I am really tired of the continuing emphasis on standardized testing as the measure of excellence. If we really want to develop quality in our educational programs, we MUST begin training our youth to think critically and, if we want to reward excellent educational systems, come up with some method of measuring that.

The Collegeboard routinely announces that using SAT scores to compare school system performance is not a statistically valid use of the test. Governor Perdue is encouraging schools to help students improve performance on the SAT. That is a good idea if it helps the students. But it is not a valid measure of a school’s educational program. He is responding to pressure from equally invalid uses of the test to compare states. Most states west of us routinely use the ACT as the basic test except for those students who plan to attend colleges with very high admission standards. It isn’t surprising that they score very high on the SAT.

By Proud Parent

October 19, 2008 7:49 AM | Link to this

My daughter made average on the SAT but will be graduating from college with a 3.99 GPA. Conclusion: SAT scores do not necessarily indicate how you will perform in college.

By Mattie

October 19, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this

Two of my sons were invited to take the SAT as 6th graders, one through Columbia, and the other through Duke. Both scored well, which meant that we were now on mailing lists inviting them to take expensive summer “learning experiences”. I am convinced that colleges marketing them to middle schoolers are just using them to raise funds. The only benefit was that when it came time to take the tests for college admission, neither one of them stressed out, or felt the need to take the review classes. They already knew they could do well.

By abaddon

October 19, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this

Priceless commentary

My little Johnny was Honor Roll all four years in HS and now this big bad test exposed the joke that is GA education…little Suzy did horrible on her SATs and has a 4.00 at UGA…my point exactly….they must somehow be disadvataged by the test….its too early, its too long, its ethnically biased etc, etc, etc…apologists!!!!

Wake up and realize that staying in GA for the weather, golf, ghetto fabulous lifestyle, job, cheap housing, etc is child abuse,…the education system here, meaning middle school, HS and College is a JOKE…while Clayton is the first school to be officially disaccredited, many colleges across the country have already informally disaccredited any student from GA, MS and SC…..your elected officials, the bloated school administrations and the teachers union stooges have failed you, your children and the future

Question: Are the Govenors Cups mason jars or UGA beer pitchers???

By OedipusTax

October 19, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

Any standardized test on any subject will be considered inadequate by those whose social agenda trumps any academic agenda.

Grades should be eliminated because any test differentiates the fortunate from the unfortunate.

There is always an excuse for the apologists. There’s always a reason to detract from the meaning of ability because that ability gives privileges, and some hate ability.

We’ve had that picture given to us by Kurt Vonnegut, who long ago pictured ballerinas restricted by springs that would not allow anyone to jump higher than any other.

SAT, ACT, XYZ. The test isn’t the problem. The problem is the thinking pattern of some immature academics and a larger percentage of lazy minds that demand everything to be fair and for no one to excel in anything, except maybe sports. JFK reminded us in the early 60’s that life isn’t fair, but of course, since that statement might be used on a test, his statement doesn’t matter either.

By Time for a Change in Ed

October 19, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

Paula and luvs2teach, Have to disagree that private schools are always better for highly gifted. We were, in fact, strongly advised to keep our son in our public school system because they had much more flexibility in meeting his curricular needs. My son also had classmates who moved from public to a highly respected private school and then back when the private school didn’t provide the academic rigor of the public. Of my son’s public school graduating class (2008), several were accepted by (and attend) Ivy and near-Ivy schools. (We do live in the school system with the most schools in the top ten SAT averages, so I realize this wouldn’t apply everywhere, but in our case, public was definitely a better match for our children.)

For a corollary to the Vonnegut picture, see http://www.stephanietolan.com/isita_cheetah.htm

By Time for a Change in Ed

October 19, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

As Tony mentioned, SAT scores are most closely linked to the student’s socio-economic status (and parental education levels). With all the SAT prep options offered in schools where parents have high expectations, the scores are elevated even more.

Several folks have mentioned that one major reason for Georgia’s low standing on the SAT is that so many students take the SAT. Part of this is due to the fact that GA was one of the last states to drop an SAT requirement for admission to a junior college, so students who have no intention to move beyond a 2-year degree, or who realize they aren’t ready for a 4-year college or university, have taken the SAT.

My older son would not have benefitted from an SAT prep class, but my younger will take at least one of the practice tests online.

EVERY STUDENT IN GEORGIA has FREE access to the official SAT Online Course. This includes six official timed practice tests (including essay scoring), interactive lessons, and personalized score reports. The tests are given in segments (i.e., you don’t have to take the whole four+ hour test at once). Check with your high school’s counseling department or library media center for an access code to register at http://www.satonlinecourseschool.com

Taking one of the tests should show students their relative strengths and weaknesses, so their subsequent efforts can be directed. (Maybe they took Geometry in the 8th grade and, as juniors and seniors, they need to refresh those skills.)

Again, our tax dollars have already paid for this course, so I highly encourage those with high schoolers to check it out!

By Time for a Change in Ed

October 19, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

Oops, the Is it a Cheetah? article didn’t link correctly… Go to Hoagie’s Gifted and search for Is it a Cheetah? Also, “What if we ran our classrooms like we run our football teams” and “No dentist left behind.”

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/what_would.htm

By More than Just SAT

October 19, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

Neither the SAT or the ACT are intelligent test. They are simply an indicator of the students ability to handle the first year of college. Even then, the results are mixed with the correlation factor at .55 - that is a far cry from a perfect 1 to 1 correlation factor. It is also true that the test are skewed toward wealth and race. Yes it is a resonaning test and yes they are designed with traps.

Personally, I think it is a disservice to exclude so many kids from UGA and Ga Tech based on the scores and not other factors.

At the same time, we do need some type of standardized test - we all know that there is a wide variance in the quality oof different county education systems. An “A” is clayton county is not the same as Gwinnett or Cobb.

By the gringo

October 19, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

All you parents who are saying that your little Johnny bombed the SAT but is getting a 4.0 at Georgia: Guess what? Georgia is a pretty damn easy school! Send them to a real school and see how well prepared they are!

By luvs2teach

October 19, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

Time for a Change in Ed - you’re right that all private schools are not necessarily better for all gifted students - you would need to know what your school and system offered at each level. I know many of the metro systems have wonderful magnet (and AP offerings at the HS level) programs that offer opportunities unparalleled by many private schools. However, I don’t care for how elementary gifted education is handled in many systems (as a one-day pull-out model). I don’t think that’s adequate for highly gifted students.

Even though I’m a public school teacher, I don’t think our “product” is appropriate for everyone - our one-size-fits-all mentality is just lie the cloting size - ok for many, but a terrible fit for some. I was supporting Paula’s choice as an involved parents an an advocate for her child in that case; I could’ve explained my stance better, I suppose.

Hoagie’s Gifted is a great site for all parents and teachers of gifted students - I highly recommend it…and Harrison Bergeron is one of my favorite Vonnegut stories - I think everyone involved with NCLB at the highest levels needs to go back and read - as do the leaders of major teacher colleges.

By Ulyses

October 19, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

As usual, when any group can’t measure up, they attack the testing. You have to learn while you’re going to school, and the scores indicate how much you have. If people can’t make high scores, it’s because they haven’t learned enough. Now you can blame the teachers, curriculum, students initiative, or all of the above, but don’t blame the test. All people can make high scores, but not if they don’t learn.

By Michael

October 19, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

Dumb kids blame the test.

By Time for a Change in Ed

October 19, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this

Not Just the SAT Yes, there has to be a standard, and you can’t just identify by the school system - You can bet an “A” is measured by a different set-point at Pebblebrook and Osborne than Lassiter and Walton, although they’re all Cobb schools…

From the GA DOE report card, 100% of HOPE scholars graduating from Walton and Lassiter are “college-ready,” (i.e., don’t need “learning support” in college). At Osborne and Pebblebrook, 14-16% of HOPE Scholars need remedial classes in college.

Of course, DeKalb County as a school system overall has 15% of its students qualifying for HOPE who aren’t “college ready…” and APS (despite spending more per pupil than any other system in the state?) lowers the standard further with less than 77% of its HOPE scholars “college-ready.”

Wouldn’t it be nice to address those issues (large numbers of students having to repeat high school coursework in college on a HOPE scholarship) so we could encourage more students to take rigorous honors classes that would be “honored” towards HOPE? (Believe me, the teachers of honors and AP courses at my school grade more rigorously since the students get honors points toward their GPA…)

By Its not hard

October 19, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this

SAT scores mean the MOST because they are a uniform test given to the largest number of people. Like it or not it shows you where you stand in relation to a common core knowledge, analysis and now of course writing.

You can’t not pay attention for 11 years of school and then blame the system because you don’t “test” well. If you had emphasized little johnny’s education instead of sports or his sex life, he would do fine on the SAT.

There is nothing wrong with the test, it is the test takers, are just waking up from their educational sleep of 11 years and don’t understand the questions.

Georgia ranks 49th. There is a reason for that….stupid parents who are on this forum making excuses.

By Ed

October 19, 2008 7:16 PM | Link to this

If you believe the bumpers of all the cars in Georgia every child is an honor student. Somehow bumper stickers don’t translate to SAT scores. Don’t blame the test. Don’t teach the test, teach the students to learn and the importance of learning.

By Kim

October 19, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher, Too, I’ve tried two times to send a reply to you. It didn’t work. I give up. Sorry, I wanted to give you details about my daughters experience so that you would understand.

By Ed

October 19, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this

If you believe the bumpers of all the cars in Georgia every child is an honor student. Somehow bumper stickers don’t translate to SAT scores. Don’t blame the test. Don’t teach the test, teach the students to learn and the importance of learning.

By Former Educator

October 19, 2008 9:45 PM | Link to this

We need to forget about the scores on standardized test, whether it be the SAT, ACT, CRCT, ITBS, CRT, or whatever test name you want to call up. We need to teach our students to think and problem solve. We are becoming to much like the Oriental schools where test scores rule. In the past, where did the creative thinking skills needed to do inventions, and major problem solving come from? They came from the United States school system. Just ask yourself one question. What is the one invention from one of those Oriental countries that you can call to memory? Inventions take creative or imaginary thinking skills and problem solving skills that are not taught in the Oriental school systems. Lets take the major emphasis off of test scores and look at the information we are teaching to our students, let’s broaden our scope to something other than narrow test objectives. In the school systems of the world in the twentieth century, what country had the schools that everybody wanted to send their children through? It was the US schools that were the cream of the crop. Then we began to become obssessed with “test scores” and our schools systems narrowed the information scope to just the test objectives. We need to realize life is not some narrow test objective but a vast experience of problems to be solved.

By KRH

October 19, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this

Like someone else that posted, I had terrible SAT scores. I started at a junior college and earned a bachelors all by working hard. I’m making twice the money that 3/4 of my highschool classmates who had “perfect” scores make. The SAT is overrated…

By luvs2teach

October 19, 2008 11:10 PM | Link to this

The Sony Walkman - although technically they didn’t invent the tapeplayer, they just miniaturized it.

By please

October 20, 2008 1:12 AM | Link to this

The SAT is a very accurate predictor of college success.

You can’t compare A students in Clayton High Schools to those who get the same grades in East Cobb or at Mount Vernon…

By jim d

October 20, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this

Entirely Too much focus on SAT when we have more important matters