Get Schooled

By travelgirl8424

September 25, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

College is not for everyone. Students should be allowed to choose a trade in high school if they like, so instead of failing out their first semester of college they can enter the work force with useful skills. I don’t understand why the Tech Prep diploma stigma exists. The high school I went to offered FFA, Car Shop, Construction, Drafting, Business, and Work Experience classes for the Tech Prep diploma. Students graduated and were able to find jobs because they were already trained.

By bearcasey

September 25, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

Mediocre college graduates represent a waste of resources. Other nations recognize this. The U.S. is living in an “Alice in Wonderland” delusion.

By sane jane

September 25, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

Not every student needs to go to college, although higher ed should be available to anyone who has the desire & academic ability to pursue it.

I wish the States had a better Voke track. A bachelor’s degree shouldn’t be the only path to success.

Besides, ask any white collar professional if they think an undergrad degree is enough. Most will tell you that a master’s degree is necessary just to be in the game.

By RightOn

September 25, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

Here’s the real truth: College isn’t for everyone! Neither is home-ownership or becoming a parent. Some people are just not cut out for advanced education, the fiscal responsibility to own a home, or have the maturity and good judgment to properly raise children. The truth is - in this world there are winners and there are losers and no matter how much our society tries, most of the losers can’t be transformed into winners.

By Jose

September 25, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

Sure- not every student need to go to college but in this skill based economy, every student needs some sort of post secondary education- Technical School, College, etc. Gone are the days of exiting HS with a diploma and getting a lifelong job that will satisfy the ecomonic needs of a middle class family.

By Debby

September 25, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

While I don’t see anything wrong with pushing kids to reach their full potential, it’s clear that some are not going to do well in some of the more challenging classes that are a prerequisite to college admission. We need all kinds of people in this world, and many of them will never step foot in college.

I graduated from high school in 1974 when you could still get out of school and land a good-paying job without benefit of a college degree.

It seems to be the norm now for companies to require it, but I highly doubt they’re getting a necessarily better employee.

By L-Spice

September 25, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

Speaking as one with a four year liberal arts degree AND a masters degree, I can say that my four year college degree taught me almost nothing useful, didn’t prepare me for anything, and dumped me into the work force with the unspoken assurance that since I’d spent all that money on the degree, I was certainly a valuable commodity on the job market. Fast forward a year later, and one of the only jobs I could find was a clerical job I could have done without said degree (or the debt which came with it).

No, college degrees are called necessary only by those who stand to profit from a steady stream of ‘customers’ who will buy what they pedal. The employers I now know say that they look for people who are smart and capable despite their college degrees- people with real-world common sense.

By L-Spice

September 25, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

Speaking as one with a four year liberal arts degree AND a masters degree, I can say that my four year college degree taught me almost nothing useful, didn’t prepare me for anything, and dumped me into the work force with the unspoken assurance that since I’d spent all that money on the degree, I was certainly a valuable commodity on the job market. Fast forward a year later, and one of the only jobs I could find was a clerical job I could have done without said degree (or the debt which came with it).

No, college degrees are called necessary only by those who stand to profit from a steady stream of ‘customers’ who will buy what they pedal. The employers I now know say that they look for people who are smart and capable despite their college degrees- people with real-world common sense.

By Value

September 25, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

Earlier bloggers are talking about how their degree did not pay off. The point of getting a degree is not learning a skill with a guaranteed job path and success, but gaining greater intelligence and showing that you can complete something. Companies prefer college grads over nons and that is a fact. If you want to learn a skill, go to trade school. A degree is something you earned and can’t be taken away from you. It gives you the knowledge and foundation to go out into the world and make it happen. Many fail b/c they pick a major in college that is not for them or one that does not pay well. It is a fact that some degrees are worth more money over the years than others. A separating factor in later career years is the non degreed worker who catches up with degreed worker in the ranks and money. What seems to be more important in our 40s and beyond is making money and having balance in life. Throwing my degree around became not as important to the public as what I accomplished. There is more arrogance about a degree when you are in your 20s b/c that may be all you have for the time being.

By Dad of 2 HS Boys

September 25, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

Although I agree that colleges are not for everyone, I think we can say the same for HS, too - for both college bound students as well as those who may be going into the work force.

If kids are planning to go to colleges, they are better served by taking advantages of programs like dual enrollment instead of taking AP classes. AP classes are nothing more than ego pleasers for HS teachers and a money making scheme for AP test giver (College Board?). You can take real college courses from someone who are more knowledgeable and earn real college credits instead.

If you are going into the work force, HS won’t help you much, either, just as some people claim colleges didn’t prepare them for their work.

By steve

September 25, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

There is absolutely nothing wrong with pushing kids in the direction of trade schools or vacational training in high school. Plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, heavy equipment operators, cabinetry, make good money. Very good money actually. Also, they have a real marketable skill that an employer can find useful….not just some piece of paper that means nothing. College is only necessary if you want to be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, or something along those lines.

By obamamania

September 25, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

To repeat the words of the great Ted Night in Caddy Shack “The world needs ditch diggers too.”

By Jason

September 25, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

“Besides, ask any white collar professional if they think an undergrad degree is enough. Most will tell you that a master’s degree is necessary just to be in the game.”

This is one of the biggest myths going. Master’s degrees are usually even less practical than bachelor’s degrees, especially in the liberal arts. Business school might be an exception (or maybe not, since outsized i-banking bonuses are a thing of the past), but only top-tier M.B.A. programs like Wharton or Stern are conceivably worth the $160K investment.

If you want to be a teacher or scientist, a master’s might be necessary, but it won’t carry much weight in Corporate America.

By Old School

September 25, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

Back on my soapbox: I’m in my 35th year of “vocational education” and still do not think my voice is being heard. No, not everyone should go to college but do not think for one minute that our technical schools are for dummies.

I am strongly for students pursuing a rigorous college-prep high school program of student WITHOUT the foreign language to better prepare themselves for technical college regardless of the career path they choose. Why? because there are few careers outside of customer service related ones that do not require higher order math and communications skills. We use trig, geometry, algebra everyday and often even a bit of calculus…and we’re just high school ED&D.

To think that only a basic education in high school is sufficient preparation is to admit you probably haven’t visited a technical college lately. Or attend the Georgia SkillsUSA championships one spring. You’ll be amazed at the level of skill and smarts required…even in plumbing.

Many of my students articulate to the tech college programs, finish in a much shortened time, get well-paying jobs, and then go on to college for that 4 year or higher degree. Income, maturity, and goals become the key to their successes. And they do succeed. No one ever said you have to go directly to college from high school.

And to those up in arms over my “WITHOUT the foreign language” comment: with the exception of medical related careers, there are many that do not require a foreign language or at best minimal conversational Spanish. (High school teach formal languages.)

Technical colleges deserve high quality students who are well-prepared and willing to learn…just like colleges and universities do. There’s a whole lot of learning going on in those technical classes and only a top-notch high school program can adequately prepare a student.

By tom

September 25, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

Old School

Everyone needs foreign language! I mean everyone needs to learn English, doesn’t s/he?

By HB

September 25, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

OldSchool, while I agree with most of what you said, I have to disagree about foreign language. Studying foreign language not only about becoming proficient in a particular language. It’s about learning how to learn language and developing another way of thinking. And it’s certainly useful in non-medical careers. I’ve become my office’s html person with no training at all in computer science. I picked it easily on my own, I think largely due to my French and Italian studies in high school and college. I believe basic language classes that stress vocabulary and grammar (usually the first 2 h.s. years, later courses begin to focus more on literature) will benefit anyone who uses math, chemistry, or physics in a career. The thought process across those subjects is closer than you might think.

By Reality

September 25, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

No, college is not for everybody. There are other viable options where, in general, “everyone” can enter the workforce and contribute to society.

Unfortunately, again, in general, we have a segment of society who are burdens on, and make no contribution to, society, based primarily on their own poor life decisions or a feeling of entitlement that the government will take care of them. This generational dependency and expection of the government will only get worse with Obama and his likely “redistribution of wealth” or “fairness” policies…

By Old School

September 25, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

HB, I understand your point. I suppose if the language is well taught and equally well learned, it would be a good thing. But far too often the connections (like your html, Italian and French) are never made just as real world connections may never be made in a math class.

I have had students with no foreign language graduate from technical college, work for a year or so and then go on to a 4 year university. Many 4 yr schools will accept such students or require them to take a foreign language course once they are on campus.

I think I’m very lucky (and extremely smart) to have an advanced college degree (Masters), technical school training, and industrial work experience in addition to my years of teaching. Just call me Renaissance Woman! My work experience and technical schooling gave me the skills; college polished me up and teaching makes me shine.

By jim d

September 25, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

Well my thoughts on this are no secret but aallow me to say that for many students that expectations about college are outrunning students’ abilities and/or interest in attending. I read a study that found that between 1972 and 1993 while something like 96% of seniors felt that college was important, yet only something like 44% actually enrolled in any type of post secondary schools. I don’t suspect those nubers have really changed much over the past 15 years.

So yes Laura, I’m afraid we are setting the majority, not just some, of our kids up for failure by filing to provide them with the tools they will need.

By jim d

September 25, 2008 1:07 PM | Link to this

OLD School,

teaching makes me shine

NAW, it’s your bubbly personality that makes you SHINE :-)

By hs sped

September 25, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

Setting up kids to fail? Oh yes, we are. This new math just sucks and the new diploma sucks too. It’s not fair to put everyone in the same program. It’s stupid. One size does NOT fit all. I see ugly things happening because of this. I see a whole bunch of law suits, too. Kids that simply don’t have the cognitive ability to perform at these levels are being tortured. It’s not fair to them, the teachers, or the other kids in the class that need help. Who do we try to save? The hopeless or the hopeful? And who makes the call? That’s what it boils down to…a choice. I can help everyone half-@##-ed or I can help a few completely. Right now it’s 1/2 for all because I can’t turn away a kid that needs help.

By barter man

September 25, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

Generaly people that don’t go to college don’t amount to much - there are some exceptions. On weekends my friends and I like to go find a couple of homeless guys (usually not college grads) and liquor them up. Then we sell tickets to our bum fight to recoup the cost. On any given weekend we host 10-15 matches down by the Salvation Army building.

By jim d

September 25, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this

Right you are Barter man!

Here’s a list of high school dropouts that never amounted to much.

Richard Branson… Billionaire British businessman.

George Carlin… Comedian.

Jim Carrey… Comedian and actor.

Tom Cruise… Actor

George Eastman… Founder of the Kodak company.

Albert Einstein… Mathematician.

Michael J. Fox… Actor.

George Gershwin… Composer

Wright brothers… Inventors of the airplane.

Peter Jennings… News anchor and reporter.

Billy Joel… Singer.

Keanu Reeves… Actor.

Thomas Sowell… Economist, author and political commentator.

Quentin Tarantino… Movie director.

Dave Thomas… Founder of Wendy’s restaurant chain.

Uma Thurman… Actress.

Randy Travis… Country music singer.

John Travolta… Actor, airline pilot.

Ansel Adams… Photographer, author.

Bryan Adams… Songwriter, singer.

Jack Albertson… Oscar-winning actor.

Peter Allen… Australian songwriter, composer, singer.

Dhirubhai Ambani… Billionaire Indian businessman.

List Source: Wikipedia

There are at least 18 billionaires that dropped out of high school, as well as 10 Nobel prize winners, 8 U.S. presidents and dozens of best-selling authors. Even Mensa, the high-IQ group, has some high school dropouts among its ranks.

In recent years, it has become less common for dropouts to succeed in many areas (except perhaps business), because diplomas, degrees, and official papers have become more important to society. While it is good to encourage education, this over-valuing of formal documents may lead us to pay less attention to what intelligence and success really is. Certainly, looking at the list above, you can imagine there are many well-papered people in this world that are a rung or two below some high school dropouts in terms of true success and the use of their intelligence.

Increase Brainpower Home Page | Famous High School Dropouts

By Reality

September 25, 2008 2:18 PM | Link to this

College is best time of your life. You’re away from home without having to work and there’s always the drinking and sex and drugs, road trips to Mardi Gras, football games and festivals. Everyone should have some time when thier young to be free. Who would want to deny these experiences to our youth. Let’s face it getting old sucks, have fun while your young because once you older all the responsibilities of life will drag you down. Once your old enough to be rid of the kids and morgage and job you’ll be too old and broken down to have any real fun. Life is hard then you die. It’s alot easier to wring a little pleasure out of every day when you young, if you wait too long it becomes too late.

By lyncoln

September 25, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Oh, but remember, we can’t consider that some students aren’t as academically capable as other students.

That would lead to the possibility that we group students by ability! Then all those academically challenged students will be doomed to never take the same classes as other students and find themselves not going to college!! Then the universe would cease to exist! (TIC)

Sarcasm aside, the dislike of tracking and grouping students by ability is the reason why all students are now placed in college prep classes.

I don’t think school systems will ever agree to tracking students and grouping them by skill level. And thus, all students will continue to be pushed into the college track of education no matter what their true ability level.

By jim d

September 25, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

reality,

“getting old sucks”?

I don’t think so!!—it certainly beats the alternatives.

By V for Vendetta

September 25, 2008 2:25 PM | Link to this

JimD, your % comment in regards to the number of students who actually COMPLETE college is important. You’re absolutely right: We’re not blowing sunshine up the arses of just a few kids, we’re blowing sunshine up the arses of a LOT of kids. Sorry, but I’m a realist. Let’s do it like Europe! They seem to get it.

By Reality

September 25, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

Go to any reitrement home and ask every man there if he wishes he had spent more time at work when he was young.

By Reality

September 25, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

Go to any retirement home and ask every man there if he wishes he had spent more time at work when he was young.

By jim d

September 25, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

V,

That % I offered was not for those that complete college but for those that ever even start.

Completion rates make the whole scenario look even worse. If only 44% of HS grads continue on to college and only about 1/2 of those make it to aa degree that means that a college education is only being obtained by less than 25% of our HS grads. Which in essesnce means that nearly 75% of HS grads go on to lead a relatively successful life without a college degree. So why are we pushing so hard for a 100% college ready HS grad? Why not give them an appropriate (less expensive) education that they will use?

By jim d

September 25, 2008 3:03 PM | Link to this

Here’s a question for all you collge educated folk out there.

HD here in atlanta recently had a weee bit of a cut back (many holding college degrees) which added to our August unemployment rates here in Ga. bringing that rate to 6.3 percent, the highest in 15 years.

So the question is this. Do college educated draw unemployment just like the drop outs that they seem to dispise?

Here’s another one. How many college educated people went out and bought huge homes using ARM’s and are now saddled with something they can not even break even on? Hell, they can’t even sell!!

By tom

September 25, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

jim d

Your reasoning is the same one as those black kids use to focus their attention on basketball or football, isn’t it?

By jim d

September 25, 2008 3:49 PM | Link to this

Dear tom,

Don’t think so.

College educated bought homes using sub-prime loans —- nothing down. I know of a home in Decatur that one such person bought back in 06 hoping to turn it in about 5 years at a huge profit. Unfortunately the bubble burst—and it was forclosed, recently selling for about 50% of what he purchased it for.

So I guess just see where some of these college educated folks have helped in totally f’ing up our economy. But then I suppose it could all be blamed on teachers teaching the new math concepts, Right?

By jim d

September 25, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

V,

Oh yeah. and leave us not forget what some of our most esteemed colleges have turned out.

“President use anyword” – attended Yale and Harvard Business. Clearly proving a college degree does not equate to discernment.

By jim d

September 25, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

BTW,

As a public announcement, any teachers dissatisfied with their meager salaries can earn 6 figures working alongside some barely educated.

I believe Blackwater is still hiring

By lets ban jim d

September 25, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

jim d a question…

do you have a job or do you spend all day blogging and being a busybody? between u jeff and set (haven’t heard from them in a while thank God) i don’t know who is worse. you all sound like a bunch of pompous d*&ks.

By Meme

September 25, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

Please don’t be mean to jim d. He has as much right here as you do.

By jim d

September 25, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

lets ban,

“We must all hear the universal call to like your neighbor like you like to be liked yourself.”———————

George W Bush

By lets ban meme too

September 25, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

“Please don’t be mean to jim d. He has as much right here as you do.”

little girl go home. this is the net, no ones feelings get hurt here.

By catlady

September 25, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

jim, the percentages for those persuing some kind of postsec ed are pretty astronomical now, and just looking at the percentage of those persuing a four year degree, it is much higher than the old numbers. Those you cited are skewed by your beginning date: before massive government student financial aid. Now anyone breathing qualifies for aid. Look at numbers from NCES (National Center for Educational Statistics) through their more recent data. And do you include only those who enroll in fall after their senior year? Many students stop out before or during college/postsecondary.

There is a great book called “Why College Matters” (I think) by Patrick Terenzini et all. It is a massive tome. It gives you ideas of other reasons besides jobs why going to college is important.

So saying, do I think colleges are enrolling some “questionable” students? Well, yeah. But until we are willing to go to a system like Germany’s or Britain’s used to be, where your fate academically is sealed before you get to 8th grade, and until we are willing to deny aid to marginal students, we are going to have a lot of wasted time and resources catering to the marginal students. America is the land of many chances.

By Tony

September 25, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

Since the blog topic links to yesterday’s topic of algebra, I am compelled to reiterate that 8th graders of all sorts are fully capable of meeting this standard. We are selling them short if we make excuses for them. VoTech related careers require good math skills, too. Old School is absolutely correct when he says VoTech is not for dummies.

There are other academic subjects these students are equally capable of passing, too. I taught science to vocational students and found they were often more able to understand the concepts because they knew how things worked. The academic kids had very few experiences of getting their hands dirty.

By tom

September 25, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

jim d

I was talking about the list of college (or was it hs) dropouts…

By Meme

September 25, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

This grandmother will say whatever the hell she pleases.

By Old School

September 25, 2008 9:10 PM | Link to this

Tony (at 5:45 PM) you kinda forgot the letter “s” in front of “he” in your statement supporting my view. The absolute facts are: I’m a former Industrial Arts teacher now teaching Engineering Drawing; I am also very much female and am the mom of two wonderful daughters. I’m in my 35th year of teaching and my work record includes Plant Engineer, Architectural gofer (college days), Cartographer, and freelance residential designer/contract drafter not necessarily in that order.

I’m willing to bet you had many of those wonderful “Eureka!” moments when your voc ed kids saw the connections between concept and real world. Isn’t that just the best stuff in education?

I’d also bet you and I think alike on a bunch of subjects.

Tony and jimdear (thanks for the kind words) we rock… don’t we!

By jim d

September 25, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this

Cat,

You are aware of course that Mr. Bush and associates cut the hell out of student loans in feb. making them more expensive. Right?

By Lee

September 25, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this

College prep. Vocational.

Why not both?

Who says you can’t take Calculus and then go to woodshop?

I’ve got a MBA in Accounting and CPA certification, and I dare say I have used the three W’s (welding, wiring, and woodshop) that I first learned in high school Industrial Arts just as much as anything I learned in my “formal” education.

Besides, the way this economy is heading, those individuals who are self-sufficient and skilled in multiple disciplines will be at a distinct advantage.

By V for Vendetta

September 26, 2008 7:36 AM | Link to this

LOL, Lee,

True say. I’m finishing up my MBA, and every day I watch the news makes me wonder if I should’ve saved that money for something else … like food.

:-)

By TheBlogger

September 26, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

This is a case of ….. “you get what you asked for.”

The politicans and school admins (mostly the same thing) were slandered when the did make vocational education and other options available. People complained that this was a type of “tracking” and that was limiting student potential. And, of course, this was also hurting the little student’s egos and feelings.

So, the result is what we have now - everyone is treated the same and everyone goes through the college prep curriculum.

People - we cannot have it both ways.

By Old School

September 26, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

“Who says you can’t take Calculus and then go to woodshop?” Lee, that’s exactly what I did- no small feat for a girl in the ’60s when girls took Home Ec and boys took shop. Both shop and calc have served me well although I’ll admit to still being intimidated by calc. Geometry was my favorite math class and I still use it nearly daily.

Shutting down Industrial Arts shops in high schools was the biggest disservice ever done to students. It led naturally to our CTAE heavy shop classes AND made those elegant connections between academics and hands-on/real world. IA had to be the most valuable course I ever took or taught. We’re going to lose our craftsmen or relegate them to living museums and that’s sad.

By high school teacher

September 26, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

Old School, I hear you. We are ruining our educational system by eliminating the voc-ed classes slowly but surely. My husband is a health-occ teacher, and I highly value and support our CTAE courses. I have seen the difference that they make.

By catlady

September 26, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this

Hey, Jim, maybe I am out of it, but I am unaware that availability of federal loans based on family income is in any question. Stafford rates are being ratcheted down. Pell Grant amounts are going up. Where is your info from? I need to learn more.

By catlady

September 26, 2008 6:43 PM | Link to this

Hey, Jim, maybe I am out of it, but I am unaware that availability of federal loans based on family income is in any question. Stafford rates are being ratcheted down. Pell Grant amounts are going up. Where is your info from? I need to learn more.

By College Prof

September 28, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

While there is certainly a consensus of opinion here as to whether all students should go to college (no) I have to wonder how many educators with their bachelor’s degrees (not just those who post here) would feel that the best educational path for their child would either delay or skip the four year liberal arts experience (or the 2+2 equivalent easily available here in Georgia).

As an educator at a two year college, I would say that over half of our students that are here would cite the wishes of their parents as a major factor in their decision to attend a liberal arts institution rather than one of the fine technical colleges available in our area. This is a societal issue wherein the parents have been told that their child stands the best chance of life success (usually by a high school counselor or well meaning life coach) when in possession of a four year degree. Until that changes, I expect to continue to see lots of unprepared and undermotivated students in my first year gen ed classes.

By catlady

September 28, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

College prof: I don’t think manyof our students have a CLUE as to what they want to do when they grow up. They are “marking time” in a very expensive way until they figure it out (as if!)

By jim d

September 30, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

Cat,

My info comes from just having floated some rather huge unsubsidized loans where intrest rates had been bumped up. and as for the pell, while amounts of grants are increasing, they really should be looking at bumping the numbers of what a parent can earn up a bit as well.(those figures need to be bumped for the subsidized loans as well.)