Get Schooled

By Jeff

September 5, 2008 8:05 AM | Link to this

Most principals would throw a teacher under a bus in LESS than a heartbeat. Joe Gheesling at Newton was particularly bad about this, and not just with me.

On the other hand, when you have the Superintendent personally gunning for a teacher because he wants that spot for his just-graduated-college daughter, there isn’t much the Principal can do and not risk his own job. Randolph fell more into that situation.

Where I live now, however, is completely different. T’s principals - both last year when she was part of the whole campus and now as part of the freshman campus - will defend teachers almost to the death against parents/ other admins- both literally and figuratively - even if the teacher has done something that requires chewing out behind closed doors.

By bearcasey

September 5, 2008 8:54 AM | Link to this

Not all principals throw teachers under the bus though that is the norm. Pete Zervakos at Northview backed me 100% when the Republican toad Fulton County board member, Katie Reeves, attacked me publicly in the newspaper for not showing proper respect for her hero, “W”, in my lesson plans. I provided a “fair and balanced” lesson for my Advanced Placement U.S. History students but Katie wouldn’t accept anything less than Karl Rove in the classroom. Mr. Z backed me 100% and hurricane Katie had to back down.

By Gwinnett Educator

September 5, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Just in time and the appropriate SUBJECT for the day. The answer is a LOUD NO! There is NO backing up. A child just bit another and the biter is STILL IN MY CLASSROOM!

I’ve worked under 4 principals (during my 12 yrs of teaching in a total of 2 schools)…I have yet to work with ONE that backs a teacher up.

By V for Vendetta

September 5, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

In my experience:

Principals: yes

Admins: no

Most of the admins I’ve worked with over the years are little more than shameless toadies doing whatever it takes to get to the next level. If they can quell a situation by pacifying the parent at the expense of the teacher, so be it. I can’t say if they change or not once they reach the next level, but many of them have been utter garbage as admins.

By jim d

September 5, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Laura,

While you will be missed, It will be pleasant having Aileen back for a few days.

By SallyB

September 5, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

I had 2 principals….that would go to the ropes for a teacher in the right…in 30 years of teaching. Most, like was said above, are so afraid a parent will go to the county office and complain…and OHMYGOODNESS, we can’t have that happen, because once it gets there, the teacher and the principal have no prayer of winning. Assistant principals are much worse. I NEVER had one of those support me in anything involving a child.

By retired

September 5, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this

I taught for over thirty years in a total of four different school systems. During that time I had two principals out of a total of nine who would back teachers. The problem became much worse in the last ten or twelve years. Students realized that ISS was a joke, their parents could bully administrators, the classroom teacher had no support, and students could be PLACED in the next grade if they did not make the grade. NCLB and AYP added to the problem. If students are suspended the days lost effects the daily attendance, etc.

Pressure from the local school board or someone important in a small community seems to get a principal to bend, every time. I have seen this happen with concerns about literature selections, how grades are averaged, classroom organization, classroom or grade assignments for teachers, schedules for individual students, and on and on and on. Some days it seems as if teachers are entering a mine field by walking into the school building.

On the other hand, principals seem reluctant to deal with or get rid of teachers who do NOT need to be in the classroom. Maybe this is due to a teacher shortage, but it could also be that it is so hard to document “bad” teaching. There were times when I wondered how some of “those” people made in through the interview.

After thirty plus years of teaching and numerous awards, I realized it was time to retire. The students of today are not the children of the seventies. Parents of all races and ethnic groups worked together and supported the schools and teachers during the first years of integration. The last few years I taught it seemed that everyone was critical of the classroom teacher without putting any personal time into helping the school in any way. PTA meetings, conference days, and personal notes were ignored. Parents were not heard from or seen until a child did not make the honor roll or the parent was inconvenienced because a child had to serve after school detention, or, heavens forbid, wanted to be involved in anything after school, other than sports.

By jakesdad

September 5, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

this doesn’t involve teacher/principal relationship (at least that I know) but we had a teacher get real defensive on us when we were actually trying to support her. our son came home from his 1st day of kindergarten and told us he was the only kid in his class who didn’t get a “good behavior worm”. our immediate reaction was that there must have been a valid reason for this, not “how dare she single out our little angel!” (we aren’t naive) but when we emailed to ask what he did/didn’t do (again, just so we could talk to him about it) we got a real defensive toned response about how many years experience she had, how she knows how to manage young children’s behavior, etc. all we wanted was to know what to talk to him about so we COULD support her. she seems like a really good teacher (it’s definitely a top school) so we just let it go but it makes me wonder if teachers don’t have a knee-jerk defensive reflex at this point (even if based on valid experience).

what advice do the actual teachers on this board have?

By MamaS

September 5, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

I taught for 30 years in three different Georgia systems under a total of seven different principals. One would back a teacher right or wrong, two would back teachers who were right, the other four were only interested in keeping the parents happy. I also experienced a principal in Newton County trying to force me to quit so he could have my spot for his wife. When I didn’t buckle he turned on another first-year teacher. She quit med-year and he immediately hired his wife (who was not certified in that area) to do the job. I moved on to Clayton County where I had many happy years, except the last few years under a principal who was so un-principled that he had a transfer rate of 80% every year. This principal went with the superintendent on out-of-state recruiting trips every year, because no one in the county would transfer willingly into his school.

By teachermom

September 5, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

To “jakesdad”, first let me say that you’re the kind of parent all teachers wish they worked with. Your first reaction was to not be naive about the situation. You handled the situation with diplomacy and did a terrific job. However, having been in the teacher’s shoes, I understand where the defensiveness comes into play. As a public school teacher I’ve had to be on the defensive for valid reasons, and on the rare occasion that you actually get a nice, cooperative parent, you tend to put up the wall as a defense mechanism. It’s nothing personal it’s just that so many of us have been bitten so many times that, unfortunately, we tend to be defensive when we shouldn’t.

By dittohead

September 5, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

By Lee

September 5, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

It’s not a question of backing a teacher up, it’s a question of DOING THE RIGHT THING.

Part of the problem, IMHO, is that schools have a constant turnover in principals and APs. My wife has had 4 principals in about the past 10 years - and the APs change almost annually. About the time the principal learns the school - who are the troublemakers, who are the weak teachers, etc, etc, - they are transferred/promoted to the next school.

Contrast that to 30 years ago. I recall having a longtime principal in each of my schools (elem, jr., and high) and these men ruled the school. There was no question who was in charge. Students feared them. Parents respected them. Teachers got on board or they got run off.

Today, most of these principals and admins hide behind a rulebook that was written by lawyers and is there primarily to limit liability to the SYSTEM - students, parents, faculty and staff be damned.

Strong principals try to do the right thing - irregardless of the consequences. Weak principals hide behind the rulebook and try to appease everyone.

Remember, weak men like a lot of rules. That way, they don’t have to make a decision.

By dittohead

September 5, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

By Jennifer

September 5, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

Funny this topic has been brought up.

The Gwinnett Parent Coalition to Dismantle the School to Prison Pipeline is training volunteers to facilitate an educational series class for parents and community members on discipline tomorrow in Gwinnett. Part of the important information we will share is to encourage parents to work with the classroom teachers directly to identify classroom interventions in the case of discipline for their students.

The teacher is the best line of support and defense in eliminating even the need for admin referrals. But the teacher has to be willing, and the parent too, to discuss, implement and monitor interventions at home and at school.

By Lee

September 5, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

“T’s principals … will defend teachers almost to the death against parents/ other admins…even if the teacher has done something that requires chewing out behind closed doors.”

I’ve got a problem with that. If a teacher is in the wrong, you acknowledge the mistake and take the proper steps to correct the situation.

To defend a teacher when they are wrong is just as bad as throwing them under the bus.

Actually, its probably worse.

By One Voice

September 5, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

I have to disagree with Jeff. I worked at Newton High School for 4 years under Mr. Gheesling and always found him to be supportive. As the school demographics changed rapidly he took lots and lots of flack from parents, and I never heard about it from him or any of the 5 APs. If the adminsitration knows you’re doing your job they are less likely to send the problems your way.

By Dr. Craig Spinks

September 5, 2008 12:29 PM | Link to this

Laura, you’re really getting warm now!

By AJ in Hall

September 5, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Jeff Explains why we now have your old principal Joe up here in Hall County. He must be a perfect fit for our notsosuperintendent. He loves the yes men and has no respect for the teachers.

By Northivew Teacher

September 5, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Glad to hear that someone has had a good experience at Northview. My experience has not been nearly as positive, though I must say that the impetus for much negativity at that school appears to emanate from the office of Bobby Macris (rumor is that there’s a shiver in his room looking for a spine to run down). I’m not the only experienced teacher who would rather quit teaching altogether than return for more abuse.

Northview is a school of republicans, built by republicans, and run for republicans. Any attempt at all to introduce any diversity of opinion into the classroom is always and without exception brutally suppressed. At Northview, the teachers need to fear the students as much as, if not more than, the parents. Just the slightest whiff of someone’s little republican child not being happy and praised constantly for things like getting up, getting dressed, and putting on shoes will result in numerous and vicious reprisals from Bobby Macris. Last year, a teacher was dressed down mercilessly for daring to contradict one of our little thieves (remember them?). The little thief was fully encouraged to express how he could not deal with the mean old teacher. I hope the jailors fully recognize what a truly exceptional child they have on their hands.

It’s no wonder that so many talented and passionate teachers end up leaving Northview in a total array of frustration. One is not allowed to do anything that approaches real teaching in a school like Northview, and administrators like Bobby Macris seem to revel in abusing teachers. Like most petty tyrants, he really is cowardly at his core.

By Northview Teacher

September 5, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

Glad to hear that someone has had a good experience at Northview with Peter Zervakos. My experience has not been nearly as positive, though I must say that the impetus for much negativity at that school appears to emanate from the office of Bobby Macris (rumor is that there’s a shiver in his room looking for a spine to run down). I’m not the only experienced teacher who would rather quit teaching altogether than return for more abuse.

Northview is a school of republicans, built by republicans, and run for republicans. Any attempt at all to introduce any diversity of opinion into the classroom is always and without exception brutally suppressed. At Northview, the teachers need to fear the students as much as, if not more than, the parents. Just the slightest whiff of someone’s little republican child not being happy and praised constantly for things like getting up, getting dressed, and putting on shoes will result in numerous and vicious reprisals from Bobby Macris. Last year, a teacher was dressed down mercilessly for daring to contradict one of our little thieves (remember them?). The little thief was fully encouraged to express how he could not deal with the mean old teacher. I hope the jailors fully recognize what a truly exceptional child they have on their hands.

It’s no wonder that so many talented and passionate teachers end up leaving Northview in a total array of frustration. One is not allowed to do anything that approaches real teaching in a school like Northview, and administrators like Bobby Macris seem to revel in abusing teachers. Like most petty tyrants, he really is cowardly at his core.

By ptcnurse

September 5, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

I’m not a teacher but a school nurse in an elementary school in a prosperous county south of Atlanta. My principal will back me up 100% in any situation as she will the teachers, and nine & 3/4 times out of ten the parents here are absolutely wrong. And I’m a parent here also so I am qualified to judge! Unfortunately most (not all) of the parents complain about non-existent problems and want their children to take no responsibility for anything. They teach them nothing about life when they sweep up every mess for them. They come pick them up anyway when I tell them point blank, “No, I don’t think they’re really sick”. The kid complains in the morning and they tell them “If you still don’t feel good, go to the clinic and call me”. Where do you think they are by 8 a.m., calling mom? Don’t put that in their head! They know there’s a clinic! But anyway, our principal is very supportive and tough on the parents. Many of them don’t like her for that because she doesn’t coddle them and give in to their ridiculous whims and complaints. I worked in a hospital for 14 years but I never knew how crazy people were until I worked in a school. It’s unreal.

By Sam

September 5, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

I have worked for an administrator that not only threw teachers under the bus, but drove the bus. She was arrogant, uncaring and a racist. Maybe that is why I never stood a chance. On top of that I had dept. chairs that were of same race and contributed more. The South, Ol’ South is very much real. God Bless US ALL, all races………

By Joy in Teaching

September 5, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

I’ve worked for 7 teachers in 21 years. (Most get burned out pretty easily.) I feel like I’ve been fortunate in that I’ve had 4 principals who were really supportive of teachers, 2 who could go either way, and 1 who would throw you under the bus in a heartbeat. (I’m still working for her, by the way.)

I do have advice for those teachers who work for such a principal.

1) Keep your head down in the trenches. Do not do ANYTHING whatsoever to call attention to yourself. Always dress professionally. Always turn in your LF lesson plans complete with standards. Always make sure your room contains the appropriate displays. Always call parents if there is a wiff of troube in your room. Never speak or question anything said in a faculty meeting. And make sure that you are SEEN at afterschool activities, working with students, etc.

2) Know who the building spies are. (It isn’t that hard to figure out.) Make sure that you do not complain whatsoever around or near them or that will ensure that you are put on the LIST.

3) If you really like where you are teaching, hold yourself together because, chances are, you will probably outlast your principal IF you can remain off the LIST.

I somehow managed to get myself on the LIST last year when a parent complained a bit too much because I followed the student code of conduct and assigned their child detention. Suddenly, I could do nothing correctly according to my principal. It’s been heck trying to get myself off of that LIST and out of my current principal’s sites. Fortunately, there is a new teacher in the building who dresses like hoochie mama and who is having problems with classroom management. While I feel bad for her, it’s taking the spotlight off of me while I hunker down.

By Elizabeth

September 5, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this

In 27 years I have had two supportive principals and two supportive AP’s ( who worked for the supportive principals). I am very fortunate now to be working for a principal who supports his teachers. Of course this carries over to the AP’s. I agree with the person who said that students are not the same as they were in the seventies— now they are so babied and have no idea what respect and appropriate behavior are. I love teaching and do not wish to leave but I will retire in 4 years anyway because I have had enough. I have been assaulted by a student ( who was not even punished). Last year as tudent wrote in a notebook her detailed plan for stabbing and killing the teachers on my team and half the students on my team. She was taken to a hearing and received 10 days of ISS. They were going to send her back to us; I informed my AP that I refused to teach a student who had threatened me with murder. They moved her to another team, but she is still here.

My principal is very suppoprtive even when it means going against parents and the county. I wonder how long he will last with that attitude.

The county mantra is call the parents. My question is when? We have meetings during our planning perid almost every day. Befor school is too early to call. I have family obligations— chronic illness- that prevent me from staying late most days. I do not call from home because of my family obligations and because home time is my family time. Many of the teachers use their own cell phones and call from the classroom. I cannot afford a plan with that many minutes— I am the sole aupport for my husband, who is disabled, and my three school-age children. If we had phones in our classooms, we could call at once when there is a problem. But there is one line in the lounge for 150 teachers to share. Yet we are supposed to call each time we warn a student and to return calls withing 24 hours. Where do I find the time? the phone line? and what if the paretn is not there? We have been told that emailing or leaving a message is not acceptable; we must talk to a “live” parent. Consequently, unless there is a real emergency, I am unable to speak with paernts. I ignore the rules and email or leave messages. If the parent gets back to me, fine. Otherwise, I consider that I tried and I document. Someday I will get in trouble for this, but I really have no choice.

If administrators want all this excess calling, then time and phone lines need to be provided. This is one level of support that I have never received.

I will miss teaching. But I can’t take it anymore. I love the kids and love to teach. It is the other stuff that is driving me out. And I am not the only one.

By elise

September 5, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Oh my goodness, Joy in Teaching, do you work in Hall County??

By Dick

September 5, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

wHAT DO YOU MEAN BACK A TEACHER UP? THERE IS NOT NEED TO DO SO.

THE CHILDREN AND PARENTS ARE ALWAYS RIGHT!!!

DON’T THINK SO, ASK ANY BUTT KISSING ADMINISTRATOR. SEVERAL YEARS AGO IN OUR SCHOOL SYSTEM (south Ga) OUR SUPER STOOD IN THE PRE PLANNING MEETING FOR TEACHERS AND ADMINISTRATON AND SIMPLY SAID ” Our goald for this year is to do what ever it takes to keep the parents happy”. Yep, teachers were dead in the water right then and there.

By David

September 5, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

As long as public education has a zero tolerance policy concerning discipline, who is supposed to feel sorry for them? You get what you deserve.

By Jay

September 5, 2008 4:45 PM | Link to this

Illegally witholding a contract until the day it was to be turned in to frighten a teacher into quitting,hiding outside of classrooms, using teachers as informants against each other, using the GTDRI to stack up NI’s to get rid of people, fabricating b.s. on annual evaluations..I’ve seen it all. Don’t go near the high school down in Moultrie.

By Mike D

September 5, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

I like to find disgruntalled teachers and help them find jobs in the adult entertainment industry. Whether its stripping, escort services, or film. I find it is pretty easy to do after they have tried teaching for about 5 years.

By catlady

September 5, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

My experience has been positive. In 35 years I have worked under 8 principals and have never (yet, knock on wood) felt thrown under the bus. I have seen colleagues who were not supported, however. A few of them I would have had trouble supporting privately, but as a principal I would have handled it privately instead of a public dressing-down. That is unprofessional.

I have had principals who needed to grow a backbone (or help the CO grow one) about student behavior expectations, and I have had those who have played favorites. But I personally have never been left hanging in the wind in an overt way.

My problem has more often been CO staff who have been promoted BEYOND their area of competence (see the Peter Principal) and a couple of principals who needed much more classroom experience (or a return to the classroom) before continuing as principal.

I guess I have been lucky!

By Lee

September 5, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

Time for a reality check:

So you have a few hellions in your classroom and your principal’s posture resembles a wet noodle…

…big, hairy deal!

Last time I checked, the powers that be haven’t figured out a way to ship your job down to Mexico - yet!

By teachers nightmare

September 5, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

jakesdad

Many teachers (and administrators) believe they should NEVER be questioned. They are so unsecure because they know they are incompetent. Number of years teaching has nothing to do with someone’s competence - just the fact she has to bring it up suggests that she knows she really has no way of showing her competence.

By HStchr.

September 5, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

teacher’s nightmare- It’s INsecure, dear. Maybe you should have paid attention in English class. Come teach for a semester and get back to us with your views. It looks easy from the outside, but like any career, it’s never what it seems. I am blessed, lucky, whatever you want to call it to have a principal who carefully checks the facts and backs you if you have followed procedure. I’ve seen him refuse to back a teacher, but only when the facts didn’t bear the teacher out. That is the kind of principal all schools need, not one who is only looking for the opportunity to move up to the county office for a cushy, high salary job.

Teachers should be proud of the numbers of years they teach. If you want quality, you need experience, and those years are the way you get it. How many people stay in any profession for over thirty years? Money? Not in teaching. Promotion and recognition? Not in teaching. You stay because you love kids and learning. Trust me, if you aren’t good at the job, you’ll never last anywhere near that long.

By HStchr.

September 5, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

Jakesdad- the defensive tone comes from either misunderstanding the tone of your request (I’ve mistook tone in e-mails a few times) or the teacher has had a bad experience with parents previously. As a twenty-year veteran, I think this is a situation of a teacher who probably was thrown to the wolves to please parents in the past. That absolutely does NOT excuse her defensiveness however. It could be some insecurity (and seems to be from what you have shared), but you would expect a top performing school to hire better than that.

If you get a negative tone like that in an e-mail, my response is always to go in person to clear it up. Often you find that the teacher will actually be much less defensive when they see you and can accurately judge tone. In this case, I would have definitely asked for a conference to clear the air. I still don’t think she had a valid reason to be so defensive though.

I hope this helps.

By MetroATLTeacher

September 5, 2008 7:48 PM | Link to this

I’ve had bad bosses in both the public and private sector. During the 8 years I’ve worked as a teacher, I’ve only had one principal and assistant principal who would throw teachers under the bus. Fortunately, for me, they were moved to other schools mid-year and the interim principal who followed that nightmare dynamic duo is the ONLY reason I’m still teaching today. I also changed school districts as soon as possible. I think school districts are so keen to avoid litigation at all costs that they give in to any parent request - so matter how absurd it might be. The students know it, as well.

By FCM

September 5, 2008 9:24 PM | Link to this

I would be happier if the Teacher didn’t say things like “I never had kids, but you send them to me for 8 hours a day so these are my kids. I will call you at home and tell you what you should do as consequences.” Hello????? Get a life lady, they are sent to you 8 hours a day because I cannot afford private or home schooling…If I knew they would get the 50 year old hippie flake I would have moved! These are MY kids, I have the marks all over body, heart, mind, and soul to prove it. BUT if they are your kids I will be happy to collect part of your paycheck to support their care.

Since that ain’t happening, or unless you wake up next to me everyday, you don’t get much of say. You can call (and she does) and will yes you to death, hang up and do whatever I think is right (usually NOT what the teacher thinks). Somehow despite all this I end with children that get comments like “He/She is so sweet, we just love ____”

By CVES

September 5, 2008 10:09 PM | Link to this

Mr. Ronald ‘Tracy’ Trussell (Creek View Elementary) backs his teachers no matter what. Not necessarily a bad thing, but his teachers are loyal to him, and each other. That speaks well of Trussell. The fact that he hires great teachers speaks well of him too.

No, I am not a KA parent or teacher. As a matter of fact I have gone toe to toe with him and his staff several times over the years. There have been teachers who were wonderful people but as teachers really screwed my kid up. I have others that I would love to clone and give to ever kids in the state. I do not agree with most of what the school does, says, or advocates….I do however believe they truly feel they have my child’s best interest at heart.

The school has no leg to stand on these days….The students may not be like they were in the 70s but neither are the schools. If Tracy has a paddle in his office I would eat my hat or birth a duck. My parents would not let the school paddle me, nor would I let the school paddle my kids, but I always ‘knew’ the paddle was up there.

There are many teachers (especially those that are Moms to ‘older kids’) that seem to think they are also there as Parenting Mentors. They do adopt the attitude that they have been there, they are teachers, they are surrounded by kids all day, therefore they know MORE than a parent….it is not so much a ‘partnership’ with the parent as a ‘do as I tell you’ mentality.

The schools cannot present a balanced platform. While I can understand how frustrated the teacher was when she wanted to present President Bush as less than ‘ideal’ and got thwarted — It is equally if not more frustrating to hear my child coming home spouting a bunch of Liberal Horsepucky….do not even get me started on the whole Black History thing….its not even balanced history! How about a Women History month, ….as I said lets not get me started.

I heard my child will have the ‘honor’ of hearing about the great ‘heroes’ Lyndon Baines Johnson, Elanor Roosevelt, Theodore Roosevelt, Walter E. Disney and other wonderful LIBERAL SOCIALISTS!!!!!!!!!! WTH ????? Then the PTA Mom stood up and mocked Palin. WTH????? How about some real Heroes? How about a Policeman, a Solider, or heck a real teacher? If you need ‘famous’ heroes, how about the pioneers, Amelia Eharhardt, John Glen….or yes, even John McCain for his actions in ‘Nam (not his merit/lack there of to run the country)?

Fortunately I am an active parent in my child’s life. I sit and discuss what they learn in school. I encourage them to look up the ‘heroes’ and learn the FULL story. If my child does get to learn about LBJ, the child will learn why the economy was screwed when Nixion got it because of LBJ’s Guns and Butter.

However, I moved here so my child could attend CVES and we will move if/when I feel the school fails to live up to the standard. I heard Tracy say he will retire in 4 years….by then my kids will be in middle school!

By V for Vendetta

September 5, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

FCM, what in the sam hill are you talking about?

CVES, I hope I never have to deal with a parent like you. Sheesh.

The truth is simple: While there are plenty of exceptions to the rule, the majority of principals and admins are so busy looking out for number one they’ll toss any teacher under the bus if it will reliably maintain the status quo in the eyes of the parent—ANY parent. Sure, there are bad teachers out there, ones who deserve the trouble they get in, but the vast majority don’t deserve the daily abuse they receive from admins, fellow teachers, parents, and students. No, teachers aren’t martyrs, but they do a thankless job because they care and they try to make the world just a little bit better. It’s just a shame there are so many hurdles standing in their ways.

By TheBlogger

September 5, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this

In my 7 years of experience, I’ve had 4 different principals and only one backed up teachers and would do something about bad student behavior. The others were spine-less dolts.

By jim d

September 6, 2008 7:08 AM | Link to this

CVES,

Can’t really blame teachers for teaching materials they are instructed to. However, if you want your children to gain a truer picture of American history there are a couple of books you can buy that even teachers won’t dispute.

“Paperback: Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong.”— by James W. Loewen

AND

“A People’s History of the United States: 1492 to Present” —by howard Zinn

Zinn has actually written several excellent books including The Twentieth Century: A People’s History

By jim d

September 6, 2008 7:27 AM | Link to this

WOW, WHERE TO BEGIN

I’m absolutely amazed!! Some of Y’all are friggin nuts! Ya gotta be!!

We recently blogged here where many of you that are telling these nightmare stories about Admin. are the very same ones that felt Admin. should be promoted from within the system.

Spineless Admin? WOW!! are we surprised? Gimme a break here—Where’d they come from? Would from within the system be a fare guess? C’mon folks The system breeds spinelessness!

By lovelyliz

September 6, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

You would think that it’s worse in the urban schools, but as a former teacher who still knows people in the business let me assure you that this is also a problem in many of the better areas.

Try telling the parents of a star football player or ones whose kid drives a BMW that their child isn’t going to make grade or is causing other disruption…………

By bone

September 6, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

I feel supported by my principal, but i do get frustrated when he tells the faculty to give very little homework & no grades lower than “60” because “research shows…” total crapola. and then he’ll add the charming phrase, “I’d be happy to speak with anyone about this if you would like to discuss it further.” um, no, i don’t think i’ll take a serving of intimidation stew, thank you.

By s2k

September 6, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

I was held accountable for six students who never returned to school after spring break - 40 days - the entire 2nd 9 weeks. I documented calls home, parent emails, attempted parent conferences, and in one case, I went to a kid’s place of work to try and talk him into coming back to school. Kids never came back, parents hung up on me, and no administrator made any attempts to help me get these kids to school.

My principal said, flat out, that I had to be held accountable because otherwise, those six kids would have been held against the school’s annual yearly progress (AYP). So now I have a N/I because those six kids failed my class and they counted against my pass rate. I look like a bad teacher now.

Then he added that I could bribe them to come to school, perhaps with food, and I’d be reimbursed.

By CVES

September 6, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

@ jim d

Thanks I am going to hit Borders later today. I personally love history anyway. If these books can help me present the real stories that would be great.

I never blamed the Teachers for having to teach the cirriculum, it’s that they do not seem to be able to interject important facts. I have no issue that that the obviously liberal teacher who has the ill-manners to call our President ‘W’ rather than be respectful wanted to present a less than ideal picture of him. I would seriously question if he/she were really capable of teaching anything about him with the objectivity that I think teachers should do.

I was in college before I every heard that free Africian-Americans owned slaves in the South. Many of them built (both with their money and their slaves) some of the prettiest churches in Charleston. I cannot site the reference, only that it was in the textbook for the Civil War class I took. Or that several women were able to vote by proxy in settler times if they owned property.

I do not see why we should wait until college to teach the truth to our children.

By high school teacher

September 6, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

The year after I started teaching was the year that tenure was taken away from administrators. IMHO, that played a large part of the ever-weakening backbone of administration.

s2k, if your story is true, then you need to contact your GAE/PAGE/MACE rep immediately. If you don’t have one, get one.

By CharlieB

September 6, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

Prt of the problem is, contrary to popularly held beliefs, there is no teacher shortage. Here and in other parts of the country, there are literally hundreds of applicants for each teaching postion (that is NOT a position in math/science.) So the principals and administrators know that they can boot anyone out the door and there will be 10 applicants before the door swings shut. Over in Cobb County, jobs get posted and pulled down the same day!

So please, enough with the claim that there is a teacher shortage. There isn’t, and there hasn’t been for a number of years. The boomer-age teachers that were all supposed to be retiring are hanging onto their jobs. The teachers schools are still churning out teachers for non-existent jobs. And the principals know that they can throw any teacher under the bus and have a body replace them within hours.

By Dr. Craig Spinks

September 6, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

I ran a prison school program for over six years with no serioua disciplinary problems- even with a student population of murderers, rapists, armed robbers, child molesters, etc. Why? I had the backing of the prison administration. If an inmate-student broke a rule, the prison administration would quickly and certainly mete out consequences which the inmate would find most unsatisfying. Of course, prison admins had the guts not to care much what my students’ Mamas thought about them or how they disciplined their “little boys.” How refreshing! PubEd might like to implement such an approach.

By njteacher

September 6, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

A word to all of you GA teachers. I was in your shoes once…3 years in DeKalb County…10 years in Gwinnett. Now I live in NJ and teach in one of the finest schools in the country. In one word, I have the solution to all of your problems.

UNIONIZE!!

GAE is a part of the NEA. Use your influence to get the union going. Here in NJ, if I smell even a hint of a bad discipline remark from one of my admins, the all I have to do is call my building rep. Its called the Weingarten Act.

Every teacher has to know that they have rights. The right to be tenured. The right to collective bargaining. The right for fair representation.

Most principals are gutless worms, rising up from the pool of incompetent teachers or football coaches.

By Elizabeth

September 6, 2008 6:26 PM | Link to this

Why is it that in any other profession or career, people look for the experienced person- doctor, lawyer, etc., and most jobs want experienced people. Would you as a parent take your child to a brand new doctor with no experience if one with experience was available? Yet, in teaching, experience counts for nothing. Just mention it to a parent and the response will be something like “you don’t know (understand) my child”. I will if you give me a chance— but when do I get a chance? Just because I am not your child’s parent does not mean that I don’t know what I am talking about. I deal with 28 kids in a classroom every day and a classroom cannot be run like you home is run. I am not you child’s parent; I am your child’s teacher— hired to teach and yes help and love your child. But there are limits to what I can do when I deal with 28 different prosnallities with different neeeds and learning levels instead of the two or three you have at home. Doctors and lawyers see one client at a time— I see 28 four times a day every day. That averages out to about 3 minutes of individual attention per child( client). You would never accept that from your child’s doctor, yet you think I can work wonders in those three eminutes with your child. And you know what? Most of the time I do. And I get better at it every year. It’s called experience.

And those who say there is no teacher shortage— it’s coming sooner than you think. I am in that last group of baby boomers who began in education when it was the best thing a bright educated WOMAN coud do. I love it and women in my generation were used to not making as much as men and knew they could not crack the glass ceiling in most other professions.That is not true today. Students who enter the teaching profession now are leaving in 4 or 5 years when they see what the job today is really like. They have other options that will pay them more, not expect unpaiod over time, and receive huge bonuses for working overtime. Yet I am still expected to work for free— and do up to 10 hours a week. When the last of us are gone, and the best and brightest enter teaching and leave or do not enter at all— who will teach the children? Not the best qualified or educated people. The leftovers. And the few dedicated ones left.

I never thought I would agree that we need to unionize teaching but we do. It is the only thing that will save us.

So all you parents who don’t think experience counts for anything — or knowledge— you will find out. So, sadly, will the children.`

By elise

September 6, 2008 8:34 PM | Link to this

I used to think that teacher’s unions were evil and unnecessary, but I am quickly changing my tune. My county has so quickly spiraled into terrible working conditions, shady administration, bullying, crazy curriculum bandwagons, and the lowest teacher morale I have ever experienced. The teachers that came from union states are just in shock at what is allowed to go on here. I love teaching, so I am just hanging on waiting for a change.

By teach

September 6, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

I’ve had one decent principal and one good AP. The rest are with the “under the bus” throwers :( I just “retired” from teaching special education after 4 LONG years. I couldn’t be happier now.

By Sarah

September 6, 2008 10:55 PM | Link to this

Teachers are on their own. There is no support anywhere. I spent last year begging my principal to do something about a group of future convicts in my fourth grade classroom. She made excuse after excuse for them. I went to the super…no help there. This year already a new group of boys got into a fight and weren’t punished. I will be the one getting sued when these little boys really hurt someone. She says she can’t suspend because that doesn’t change the behavior…neither does doing anything. My principal stays holed up in her office “talking to parents”. I never see her in the halls and she has been in my class once this year. She’s not active and doesn’t care what goes on. She would certainly throw me under the bus to cover her own negligence.

By HS Teacher

September 6, 2008 11:55 PM | Link to this

I am a proud member of GAE—a union. I am going to a Teachers Rights workshop this month; but I already know what my rights are.

By CCSD

September 7, 2008 7:25 AM | Link to this

I currently work for a principal in a large metro Atlanta school district who has openly told the staff that no student can earn a 69 or 68 on the grading scale when 70 and above is considered passing. He has had his AP come in and tell us to change final grades and re-give final exams in order to try to improve the graduation rate for the purposes of AYP. He is a micromanager and everything must have his stamp of approval (which is difficult to get when he is not there half the time due to county and local meetings). He dictates from his office and treats his staff like we are stupid and incompetent. Can we say Hitler and or Mussolini only the school version of them? Teachers don’t complain because of fear of retribution from him. He is a horrible individual with an agenda and he needs to be removed!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Cara

September 7, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

Both my husband and I are retired teachers and administrators. We both enjoyed an excellent reputation with parents, students and administrators. We were considered “outstanding”. When our 4 children went to college, our only demand was that they choose any career, other than teaching. Until teachers are treated and compensated as the professionals that they are, no one in their right mind should even consider entering the field!

By Dr. Craig Spinks

September 7, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

In a state whose statutory law protects teachers from civil and criminal liability for all their actions short of “deliberate intent to do harm,” why are so many teachers “scared to Death” of being sued for disciplining children?

By linda

September 7, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

Why aren’t admins being thrown under the bus for infractions in their own schools? Seems if the kids can’t follow a few simple rules it is more the fault of the culture of the school not expecting enough rather than a teacher. I’ve never met a teacher who wished his classroom were more chaotic and lawless. As it is now, they are forced to put up with it to a certain degree due to lack of expectations of excellence in the school culture. It is too much to ask of one teacher to do more than the school expects. I know it happens in movies, but even there it is obvious that helping the troubled students takes over their entire lives. Teaching simply should not be that difficult. It is a job, not something akin to priesthood. The longer we wait for those selfless miracle workers to show up the longer our kids will suffer. Set up a respectable school environment, and demand excellence. If students drop out and you don’t make AYP, point out your successes which will be many. Success is the best revenge and that is how we should fight the insanity that is NCLB. Forget it and do what it right for the students who need and want to be there. The others will eventually see the light and come back… It appears that management in many areas is becoming more spineless. Have you seen the losers that somehow manage to keep a job from day to day? Where is their leadership?

By MBW

September 7, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

In successful schools, the principals DO back their teachers up….and vice versa. AND the school works together when it comes to discipline and instruction.

In failing schools, principals avoid dealing with problems….often to avoid driving up their suspension/expulsion stats. When admins and teachers blame each other for the problems, the school spirals out of control.

Students can tell when a school faculty doesn’t work well together.

By high school teacher

September 7, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

If students drop out and you don’t make AYP, point out your successes which will be many. Success is the best revenge and that is how we should fight the insanity that is NCLB.

Unfortunately, the state and federal governments don’t see it that way. Schools that are on a needs improvement list for three years are subject to a complete state takeover, and teachers can lose their jobs.

Teaching simply should not be that difficult. It is a job, not something akin to priesthood.

Well, actually… :)

By Dr. Craig Spinks

September 7, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this

Why haven’t GAE and PAGE protected teachers’ (and students’) rights to orderly classroom environments essential if effective instruction and learning are to take place? Who REALLY represents and protects our teachers? and our kids? Nobody? Looks like NOBODY to me. How does it look to you?

By Dr. Tim

September 7, 2008 6:55 PM | Link to this

There are a lot of great administrators in the field who want to be fair to parents, students, and teachers. Ms. Constantino of McEachern High School is one of the best. Though she is principal now, when she was the AP I was challenged and harassed by then Asst. Superintendent Bynum, brother of the infamous Randy Bynum of North Cobb fame. When Superintendent Bynum attempted to intimidate me into changing a student’s grade from a 69 to a passing level so that student could wrestle, Ms. Constantino stood with me all the way. And all though the lad, who may or may not have shared Bynum’s last name, was allowed to wrestle in spite of policy, it wasn’t because I fixed his grade to pacify that piece of lard.

By Pamela

September 7, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this

To the Northview Teacher:

Wow, with the hateful attitude you and the majority of today’s teachers have against Republicans - which, I have no doubt manifests itself toward the children you teach - no wonder teachers have a bad reputation among parents who give a damn not only about their children’s education, but also the values teachers impart to their children all day.

You see, in places like N. Fulton and Fayette counties, the majority of intelligent and responsible parents instill into their children the value of respecting and obeying the authority figures who dominate their children’s lives. Not because these successful parents want their children to become mind-numbed robots who cannot think critically for themselves, but because of the revered position these figures have traditionally and symbolically represented within their culture, heroic figures responsible for upholding the values of decency, lawfulness, respect and civility of society at large - values which align with those of the very kind of parents and administrators you seem to hate. And whether you like it or not, along with elders, police officers, and firemen, teachers have always ranked at the very top of that list for parents.

Because of this respect for teachers and their authoritative role traditional parents instill in their children, they are extending, rather than abdicating, their parental responsibilities to the schools who educate their children every day for 12 years. When entrusting their children to an educational system (tax-payer funded, by the way) , these parents have every right to hold teachers and administrators accountable for exploiting the influential role they play in the lives of their children by brainwashing them with leftist, socialist values that are not only anti-ethical to their own, but have no place in a K-12 classroom.

Bottomline: Below are Northview’s spectacular SAT scores in 2007. Looks like to me the “evil” Bobby Macrisme is more than fulfilling the role parent’s expect from their school system. But if you feel stymied from the lack of support for your leftist brainwashing efforts, I’ve heard there’s a school district in Clayton County looking for teachers exactly like you.

SAT Critical Reading Math Writing Total 2007
Northview 553 593 556 1702 System 525 538 526 1589 Georgia 494 495 483 1472 National 502 515 494 1511

By Right is Right

September 7, 2008 8:35 PM | Link to this

@ Elizabeth: Instead of teaching, please go back to school to learn how to spell correctly. I can only imagine how many errors you make while teaching the children. No wonder the state of GA ranks at the bottom in Education.

Now, as a parent, I am all for supporting the teachers when they are RIGHT. However, there are times when teachers allow their emotions to dictate their actions and they don’t always act in the best way, but I do understand that teachers are under a lot of stress. Only people who truly love teaching and children should go into the field of teaching. All others should find something else to do and not waste their time. I believe a person truly has to be gifted in that area and unfortunately, not many of the teachers today are.

I believe Principals and Administrators should back whoever is in the right, whether it be teachers, students and/or parents. Right is right and wrong is wrong no matter who it is.

By The problem

September 7, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this

You bothered the teacher with a stupid question like “why didn’t my kindergardener get a good behavior worm?”

That is ridiculous. Don’t waste the teacher’s time with crap like that, they’ve got real work to do.

Just tell your kid that you expect him to behave properly for his own sake, and for yours.

By Pamela

September 7, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this

Going to school in the 1960’s and ‘70’s, my parents never asked my teachers why I didn’t do well on a test, or didn’t receive an “A” in conduct…they asked me, their child, because they viewed ME as ultimately being accountable for my grades and behavior.

By Dr. Craig Spinks

September 8, 2008 2:33 AM | Link to this

KUDOS to Dr. Tim for his insightful comments and his courage in putting his name on them!

By Time for change

September 8, 2008 6:26 AM | Link to this

Pamela, I work at another North Fulton school and know teachers from Northview. If you believe that this is nirvana, you are wearing heavily rose-tinted glasses.

MANY parents here DO NOT teach their students to respect authority, especially those who’ve been in the U.S. a couple of generations. Their children have been rescued by the parents from kindergarten, and the hormones of middle and high school just exacerbate the problem. You apparently haven’t seen students reactions to being asked to follow the oft-stated rules such as no cell phones during the school day, don’t eat outside designated areas, stay off Facebook and fantasy sports websites.

Someone noted that you might expect more problems in an urban area but I expect this problem is much worse in our suburban schools with high-achieving parents who are keeping their kids up with the Jones kids.

Teachers at Northview (and other N Fulton schools) are inundated with e-mails after grades are posted on ParentConnect, asking for explanations of grades. Granted, many parents will ask their children about the grades and listen with respect to teachers’ explanations if the children don’t provide an acceptable answer. Some don’t.

I don’t agree that you are “paying” for a public education to have your child exposed only to your ideas. Go to a private school that meets those standards if that’s what you demand. While I’m skeptical of the all -Republican rant, you’ll notice that others noted that some of our board members are rabid, and that is a problem. Do you really want your child leaving school without being able to critically assess information provided? Or do you want him/her to be one of those people who believes whatever fits his pre-set (by you) world view?

Finally, you really can’t attribute Northview’s SAT scores to the education provided there. The school supports it, certainly, but look at the average home value in the district and note the high correlation between parents’ educational levels and socioeconomic status and SAT scores. (Also, look at the number of students who take SAT prep classes.)

By bearcasey

September 8, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

DEAR PAMELA: I was at Northview as a teacher from 2001-2006. The NUMBER ONE reason for the school’s high test scores is the high % of ASIAN students. Also the reason for the weak football team (9-35 and 7-33). You can’t have it all!

By bearcasey

September 8, 2008 9:16 AM | Link to this

BOBBY MACRIS has his job at Northview for only one reason: he is of Greek heritage as is Principal Zervakos. I was with Fulton County since 1987 and this has been a running joke since Mr. Zervakos was principal at North Springs back in the 1990’s.

By AJ in Hall

September 8, 2008 10:17 AM | Link to this

Elise: You are in Hall County schools also aren’t you? It really is unbelievable what has happened in such a short time frame isn’t it?

By Lisa

September 8, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this

Principals cannot “look good” and back their educators at the same time. The AP’s have been told NOT to discipline students so we won’t have a high incident of discipline issues and our school will “look good”. Some Principals mess around with reports so that our school looks so much better than it actually is. Students used to have skills and no self esteem, now students have NO skills and plenty of self esteem because educators cannot tell them the truth about their work. We must praise them for the lowest effort and pass them even if they don’t deserve a passing grade. Education is more about politics than actually teaching children. You have to stay for 30 years, otherwise most of us old timers would retire out of disgust.

By correction for Dr. Tim

September 8, 2008 7:20 PM | Link to this

Lawrence Bynum is the North Cobb Ex-Princ., Randy Bynum is the A*’t area superint. Randy used to be the principal at Pebblebrook high school. I can tell you from personal experience, it was his policy that no progress reports or report cards go out with a 69% on them. It was left up to the teacher if the grade was to go to a 70% or lowered to a 67/68%. Of course he didn’t mention until April that if your failure rate was “too high” (no number was mentioned) that you would get an NI on your end of the year evaluation. I think this plan was instituted when the PE classes had a 33% failure rate…how the hell do you fail PE? The core classes were up around 60% - 90%+ failures.

Many teachers got NI’s. I took my “retention bonus” money and left, as did MANY teachers. Obviously, not much has changed.

By alch

September 9, 2008 6:28 PM | Link to this

By The problem

September 7, 2008 10:13 PM | Link to this

You bothered the teacher with a stupid question like “why didn’t my kindergardener get a good behavior worm?”

I was thinking the same thing!!!

By Not Quite

September 15, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

The question was, Why was my child THE ONLY kid who did not get a good behavior worm?” I think there is a huge difference, but I can see how some/most teachers don’t see the difference. Our classrooms are filled with incompentency.

By Jacky

October 16, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

I have had 3 contacts with parents this week, one wanting to know why her child had not been allowed to have hert fruit at break? She walked past it on way out and forgot to pick it up. One who resented the fact that her child had been asked to write out 3 times spelling words incorrectly copied from a piece of paper; and one who stated that her child needed more support but did not want to have to help her with her homework! Think it is time to get out. [Headteacher very supportive but I have had enough]