Get Schooled

By jim d

August 26, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

Let me ask a question:

Suppose you took a high school class, singled out the top 10% and had them take an exam, any exam. Then you took all but the bottom 10% of the class (i.e. the top 90%,) and had them take the exam. Which do you think would result in a higher average score?

Here’s one simple way to look at it: in a typical high school class, the top 10% of students might have an average in the lows 90s in a given quarter, while the average of all but the bottom 10% might be about 75-80. Let’s make it even simpler, using the extreme example of Maine (100% taking the exam) versus Mississippi (10% taking the exam): don’t you think that the top 10% of your class would probably do better than the entire class’s average? Is it really any surprise then that average SAT scores are lower in states where more students take the exam?

The bottom line then is, the better job a state does at convincing students to aspire to higher education the worse the state will do in terms of average SAT score.

Simply based on the percentages of Georgia’s HS grads taking the SAT, I guess Georgia is at least accomplishing the feat of inspiring students to aspire to higher education. That my friends is SOMETHING TO BE PROUD OF

By Dana @ DOE

August 26, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

Jim d is right (and very eloquently put — want a job?).

Folks, I’ll be around today to answer any questions about the SAT. There is certainly more to the story than just a number.

Thanks,

Dana Tofig (GaDOE spokesman)

By jim d

August 26, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

Thanks Dana,

However, it is not all mine. I borrowed part of the example since it explained it in terms that anyone should be able to understand. Hopefully it will answer many of the critics that are sure to be here today.

By jim d

August 26, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

Dana,

Could you crunch the numbers for us regarding the number of students in Ga. taking the test over the past 3 years so people can compare the declining scores to the increases in the number of test takers over the same period?

Thanks!

By Jeff

August 26, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

jimd and I are on the same page here.

What is the new max score? I know back when I took it - something like a decade ago - 1446 was HIGH (better than I ever did, in fact!)

By jim d

August 26, 2008 12:21 PM | Link to this

One last request Dana,

Another comparative number of interest might be number of students taking the test for the second or third time.

I know mine took it twice and while raising certain scores he dropped in overall average simply because he really didn’t give a damn about increasing what he felt was already representative of his abilities in certain subject matters.

BTW Dana, I’m flattered but I couldn’t work for your boss. :-)

By Dana @ DOE

August 26, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this

Jim d:

Number of test-takers the past three years 2008: 62287 2007: 59562 2006: 58309

While that may contribute, we think there is another interesting statistic that may contribute to the scoring trend as well.

In 2008, 45 percent of our seniors only took the SAT once. That’s up from 37 percent in 2005. That’s significant for our statewide results for two reasons: 1) Students who take the SAT more than once generally do 30-40 points better. 2) The College Board reports the scores of the “last test taken” by seniors.

It’s possible some kids are taking the SAT once and then taking the ACT, which would explain the dramatic increase in ACT test takers the past several years.

By Dana @ DOE

August 26, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this

Jeff: The maximum score is 2400 (three sections, each worth 800). Writing was added a few years ago.

Jim d: We’ve heard from other folks this might be a trend — students take the SAT multiple times but only concentrate on the area they need to raise their score. The rest they just fly through or “christmas tree.” We don’t see any immediate evidence of that being a wide-spread trend, but we will be looking into it with the College Board.

Jim — no worries about the job offer. We can’t hire anybody now, anyway :-)

By jim d

August 26, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

“The College Board reports the scores of the “last test taken” by seniors”

Really? I was under the impression all scores were given and that the highest scores in each subject matter were the ones the colleges used regardless of how many times the test was taken. (is that wrong?)

By jim d

August 26, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

Dana,

Based on what my child did.

Pay close attention to the writing portion declining scores, second time around, with students that did exceptionally well the first time. I believe you will see a distinct correlation.

By Dana @ DOE

August 26, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

Jim d.,

For statewide results, they use the last test taken.

Colleges look at highest score in all sections,

Dana

By Jeff

August 26, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

Dana:

Students taking the test multiple times is NOT a new trend. I know for a fact that I did it, and I’m pretty sure at least one, possibly both, of the younger bros did as well. I also know that several in my HS class did this, and we got out 7 yrs ago! (Hard to believe that we were the last HS class pre-9/11!)

By jim d

August 26, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

Dana,

Ever need a consultant! :-) I might be available, he said ROTFLHAO!

By jim d

August 26, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

Thanks Dana,

My bad.

By Dana @ DOE

August 26, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

Jeff

I took the test multiple times (and I graduated — ahem — 23 years ago). I think Jim is referring to students taking it multiple times and only putting effort in on one section. Colleges take the best score for each section of the test.

For example, let’s say you took the SAT and scored 800 on the reading and math but scored 600 on the math. When you took the SAT again, you’d focus on the math portion, but you wouldn’t care about the reading or writing portion because you’ve already got a high score.

By DeKalb Parent

August 26, 2008 1:15 PM | Link to this

The DOE and school districts can spin this all they want, but scores on a critical test are dropping. Teaching to the test (CRCT or EOCT) is taking its toll on our students. DeKalb’s SAT scores fell 18 points last year and another 8 points this year. Dana, please find the silver lining in these figures.

To answer the last question, yes, statewide and metro SAT scores are very important. Corporations look at these statistics when deciding whether to move or expand in a particular geographic area. This is an economic development issue.

Now my question, which states are number 48, 49 and 50 in the rankings?

And Dana, please provide the comparison of scores for the students who took the SAT once versus more than once for 2007 and 2008.

By Dana @ DOE

August 26, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

DeKalb Parent

We’re not putting any spin on this, but there are reasons we are seeing a drop and they are not all academic.

The state’s below Georgia are South Carolina, Hawaii and Maine, as well as D.C.

I do not have the scores for students who took it once, versus more than once, at my fingertips. If I can find it today, I will post. The College Board has run the data for us, since it’s their data.

By SallyB

August 26, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

DANA There have been a few very interesting books recently that articulate what many teachers have been saying for years and years…. “college for all students is neglecting the hopes and aspirations of millions of young people currently in school who either lack interest in academics or the inability to succeed in a more rigorous curriculum”. Many of us believe that there are many paths to becoming a contributing citizen , but our public schools make it apparent to students that there is only one that is acceptable…college.

By Tony

August 26, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this

There is a huge clue to Georgia’s academic deficit on the headline page of ajc.com today. The UGa Quarterback is highlighted with a photo in a very prominent position while the headline for the SAT news, albeit at the top, is in a much less prominent spot. We have entire sections of newspapers dedicated to sports everyday of the week. The science and technology section gets published once a week. I never see the math section.

We do not run the stats of high schools’ AP enrollments nor do we report on the AP performance at the end of the testing season. Yet, there is always room for high school sports to be published.

We have developed a “one track” to graduate approach for high school. I’m in agreement that students generally need four years of English and four years of Math regardless of their track. Unfortunately, our current plan is heavy on analytical math and “high brow” literature. Is this what kids truly need? I heard the other day that one of the richest people around may be the plumber! I know HVAC is also a good business.

The SAT is not an appropriate test to use to judge schools’ academics. The correlations of SAT scores will more closely align with socioeconomic than any other single factor. jim d’s lesson was right on target regarding the large proportion of students taking the test. Who gets rich off the SAT? Now, there’s a question that might help us decide how important this test is.

By Kemmet from Philly

August 26, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

The sole reason for Georgia’s deplorable test scores is simple: YOU REDNECKS DOWN HERE IN GA ARE AS STUPID AS THE GUM ON THE BOTTOM OF MY SHOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You all exert too much energy into things like football, sexing your cousins, and just being outright racist, bigoted rednecks that you fail to notice that your state finishes time after time at or near the bottom in any academic category

By Kemmet from Philly

August 26, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

The sole reason for Georgia’s deplorable test scores is simple: YOU REDNECKS DOWN HERE IN GA ARE AS STUPID AS THE GUM ON THE BOTTOM OF MY SHOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You all exert too much energy into things like football, sexing your cousins, and just being outright racist, bigoted rednecks that you fail to notice that your state finishes time after time at or near the bottom in any academic category

By Kemmet from Philly

August 26, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

The sole reason for Georgia’s deplorable test scores is simple: YOU REDNECKS DOWN HERE IN GA ARE AS STUPID AS THE GUM ON THE BOTTOM OF MY SHOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You all exert too much energy into things like football, sexing your cousins, and just being outright racist, bigoted rednecks that you fail to notice that your state finishes time after time at or near the bottom in any academic category

By Kemmet from Philly

August 26, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

The sole reason for Georgia’s deplorable test scores is simple: YOU REDNECKS DOWN HERE IN GA ARE AS STUPID AS THE GUM ON THE BOTTOM OF MY SHOE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You all exert too much energy into things like football, sexing your cousins, and just being outright racist, bigoted rednecks that you fail to notice that your state finishes time after time at or near the bottom in any academic category

By jct

August 26, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Hey Dana,

If you are still around, I have a questions. Of the students who took the SAT each year you referenced above, how many matriculated into a 2 or 4 year program.

I am in agreeance with jim d and Jeff. Not everyone needs to take this test.

By Dana @ DOE

August 26, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Sally B — thanks for the post. I’m going to respectfully disagree with you, at least partly.

First of all, nobody I’m aware of expects all students to go to college. That is why we’ve increased offerings in our Career, Technical and Agricultural Education areas and fostered innovative program like Career Academies.

However, there is plenty of research that shows that core expectations of college and the work world are not that much different anymore. To get a job in the 21st century that you can support a family on, you need strong analytical skills, the ability to communicate effectively and other skills that in the past may have been reserved just for college students.

That is separate from the SAT results though. We are not in a position — nor would we want to be in the position — to tell a student he or she can’t take the SAT. If a student wants to take the SAT or ACT and is dreaming of going to college, then we need to make sure they are ready for the exams. Perhaps because of the HOPE scholarship, we have more students dreaming of college than other states. But as Jim d. said earlier, that’s a good thing.

By Dana @ DOE

August 26, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

jct,

College Board doesn’t say how many actually attended college. It would be interesting to know that.

I would agree that not everybody needs to take the test. But, again, it’s not our place (as the state) to say who can and cannot take the exam.

By Ernest

August 26, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Dana:

Have there been discussions to ‘encourage’ students to take the ACT and use those results to help them determine whether to take the SAT. At least this way, counselors have another measurement that could help them advise students accordingly. While I agree with JimD’s opening statement, I still believe we have too many students taking the SAT.

I’m in agreement with DeKalb Parent, though we shouldn’t perform ‘state to state’ analysis, most people do. It has an economic impact on our state that can’t be measured.

Hopefully there is a marketing campaign to help create greater awareness of the career tech options. I run into many folks that still don’t know about them.

By jim d

August 26, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

Ernest,

Actually, GCPS encouraged my child to take both the SAT and the ACT since most colleges will accept either and use the best results in determining admittance. He did better on his ACT but requested results from both be sent to every school to which he was applying.

Also let me say that while Dana is correct in that it isn’t the states job to make these types of recommendations, I do believe they might be able to do a little better job of making parents aware of their options.

By SallyB

August 26, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

DANA I am with jimd. It’s all about options!!!! And having taught many, many years in middle school, I am convinced that when it comes to present OPTIONS to our students, we are sorely lacking. It’s COLLEGE, COLLEGE, COLLEGE …and if you are one of those millions of kids in America who either lack interest in academics or the inability to succeed in a more rigorous curriculum, ….well, from my experience they just feel pushed aside. OPTIONS should be a primary emphasis…. beginning in early on in our public education.

By Ernest

August 26, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

Point taken JimD! In DeKalb, Title One monies are used to administer the SAT to all 9th and 10th graders. On one hand, you can say that is good because if schools use the results to provide additional guidance, it can be a ‘win-win’ situation. OTOH, if the students are not getting guidance, it becomes a wasted effort.

Based on comments I’ve heard from others regarding the content of the ACT, it sounds like a better test to administer IF the results will be used as a diagnostic tool. I’m probably becoming somewhat transparent with this, I don’t like the national perceptions of GA with respect to SAT scores so perhaps we can ‘work the system’ as other states obviously do…..

By catlady

August 26, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this

Might as well get used to increasingly lower SATs. Georgia now emphasizes form over substance. Teachers are to spend HOURS writing lesson plans so detailed that they list what is done by the teacher, what is done with the teacher, and what the students do alone. Also, coding each specific GPS objective to each activity.

I have an idea: let the teachers spend their energy teaching the kids. If you wonder what GPS I am teaching (it should be obvious) ASK ME.

This form over substance is one of the top two or three things driving good teachers (those who want to teach kids) away, and leaving the mindless drones in their place.

By catlady

August 26, 2008 5:59 PM | Link to this

Kemmet, at least we don’t post the same thing four times….. four times……four times…..four times…..

By Tony

August 26, 2008 6:22 PM | Link to this

Catlady wrote, “Teachers are to spend HOURS writing lesson plans so detailed that they list what is done by the teacher, what is done with the teacher, and what the students do alone. Also, coding each specific GPS objective to each activity.”

This is a local decision and it is one that produces exactly what catlady describes. Good leaders shun these mundane administrative approaches to management and unleash the creative energy of teachers to teach. Having teachers spend hours carrying out these tasks takes away from time they are able to spend with students and in development of materials that will meet students’ needs. Worse still, is that some principals require the teachers to do these tasks when they have scripted programs that do not allow the teacher to deviate.

By SallyB

August 26, 2008 6:42 PM | Link to this

catlady,,,,How right you are!!!

THat [writing lesson plans so detailed} plus the everchanging Cures du Jour is what drove me [and the 8 teachers from my school that retired when I did] away from the profession that we loved. So sad, so sad!!!

By catlady

August 26, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this

Oh, our coding also has to include a quote of the GPS standard. So they have to be copied, and recopied over and over (ad nauseum). Then there are the three week plans for small groups of students. Etc. etc.

NO ONE is saying it is wrong to do plans. But when the plans and their form become more important than the teaching, the line is crossed.

Our students’ scores will not improve with better plans. They will improve with better TEACHING.

By Old School

August 26, 2008 6:58 PM | Link to this

“First of all, nobody I’m aware of expects all students to go to college. That is why we’ve increased offerings in our Career, Technical and Agricultural Education areas and fostered innovative program like Career Academies”

I know Dana is probably home with the family by now but the above statement makes me want to cry. They may be do the above but that doesn’t mean the DOE is updating existing CTAE programs and bringing them into even the 20th century. They have gutted the very life skills that made Home Ec so valuable to all students and left the rest of us to continue making do with aged machinery and antiquated equipment. Our shops that were designed and built according to GEORGIA STATE DOE requirements for a maximum class size of 18 are now seeing 28 minimum students. That’s just not safe but we make do and somehow everyone survives. Our construction teacher can no longer teach cabinetmaking because the state says NO! So local cabinet shops no longer have a ready supply of skilled craftsmen coming to work. We are not metro Atlanta but most of the decisions seem to be based on what urban areas want…not what our surrounding area businesses and industries need.

Go ahead DOE, add more programs. I’m going to start referring to myself as “Coach” so maybe I’ll get a little equipment money to replace my 2003 computers.

By catlady

August 26, 2008 7:03 PM | Link to this

Also, wait until the little kids who are being “served” by the RTI process hit high school. You will have a lot of kids who should have been qualified for sp ed who will be taking the tests Georgia is so fond of. Of course, RTI actively discourages even testing for sp ed. Then, if the testing is ever done (unlikely) and if the finding is for a handicapping condition, the child frequently does not get any significant assistance. They are “mainstreamed” and served by a “push in” IF they are lucky. They get “accomodations”, but in the real world of life, how many of you get “accomodations?” Hey, just wait till those kids move up!

To paraphrase President Bush, “You are doing a heckuva job, Cathy (et al)!”

By anne

August 26, 2008 7:09 PM | Link to this

Amen, Catlady! It is crazy that teachers spend an exorbitant amount of time writing lesson plans. Planning is necessary, but all the written drudgery that educrats require is not. SAT scores will definitely go up when teachers are allowed to teach.

By TheBlogger

August 26, 2008 8:09 PM | Link to this

jim d OMG! Did you really, really write a comment that is positive about public education in GA? Excuse me while I check the weather channel (to see if h@ll has frozen over)!

By thomas

August 26, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

Well first of all, administrators make teachers do stupid things like horribly detailed lesson plans as a way to say that they are holding teachers accountable. They do it to have “documentation” that there is a greater focus on instruction and “meeting the standards.” Is it logically? Does these sorts of actions really increase student behavior? No. It simply drives teachers away from those schools.

Another thing- a lot of times requirements like these are only at low performing, Title I schools. The teachers in the “good” schools in the suburbs are “left alone”, so to speak. I know, because I have taught at both kinds. But truth be told, if teachers were teaching in the first (or had taught), none of this would be necessary.

True story- I once worked at one of the worst elementary schools in the state of Georgia. It was on the Needs Improvement list (still is). There are about 1297 elementary schools in the state of Georgia. This year only 39 are NI. The school under went a big review by county officials and an official from the state. They noted, among many other things, that teachers were not teaching GPS standards. But of course I knew from the first week that people at that school were bullcrapping. You had teachers sitting on their butts all day long, while the kids were locked in their seats, not allowed to breathe or EVEN USE THE RESTROOM. The teachers really didn’t give a darn about the kids.

This is why I don’t get angry when I hear that teachers in these schools are made to jump through all sorts of hoops to justify and prove that they are doing their job. Reality and much research shows us that most teachers (particularly if they are from the majority) don’t really care about what kind of instruction they provide to minority children. Research has shown us over and over how poor instruction is in high minority and high poverty schools. Unless you are some sort of reading specialist, special ed, teacher, ESOL, or the like, you wouldn’t normally choose to work in a school like that. The only people who work in these schools are rookies straight out of college (who don’t know anything to begin with, have no intention of staying at this school any length of time, and more importantly, couldn’t find a job anywhere else), the lowest of the low who can’t remain employed elsewhere (the worst teachers), and perennial slackers who will deal with being in the ghetto or barrio for simply reason that they don’t have to do anything to keep a job.

People came up with that kind of paperwork for a reason. People came up with scripted lessons for a reason. People came up with mandatory posted “standards” for a reason. People came up with schedules posted outside the classroom doors for a reason. People came up with submitting lesson plans for a reason. People came up with classroom observations for a reason. ALL TO INSURE THAT PROPER AND APPROPRIATE INSTRUCTION WAS TAKING PLACE ON A REGULAR BASIS. They knew that without it, some folks would only give out ditto sheets, seatwork, and when they would “teach”, it would be a unit on apples and nothing else.

By can we grade admin too?

August 26, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

Thomas, you are WAY off on your assessment of those who teach in the tough schools. I have taught at schools ranging from a lily-white private Catholic school in the midwest to one of the lowest performing, physically dangerous minority-majority schools in Georgia. I stayed at the private school for a year and at the “dangerous” school for 3. Teachers at these “bad” schools aren’t there because they can’t find other jobs. If you have never taught in one of those “bad” schools, you really have no business making the type of ridiculous statement about the people who do teach there. Truth be told, MOST teachers wouldn’t last a day at these difficult schools because the environment is not an ideal environment to teach or learn in. And adding layers of garbage to CYA for the administration doesn’t help!

In my personal experience in some of the “good” schools I have taught at, I have seen a lot more teacher apathy and laziness. The teachers can get away with it because the students are going to be fine DESPITE the abilities (or lack of ability) of the teacher in the room.

By SallyB

August 26, 2008 9:34 PM | Link to this

Thomas….I, too , think you are totally off base. I taught in a “failing” school…[even before NCLB designated “failing schools”… for many years. I daresay that the teachers there worked even harder than those in the so-called “good schools”.
In fact, I still believe that the faculties of the highest scoring schools could be switched with the faculties of the lowest performing schools and there would be NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE IN SCORES OF ANY KIND.

By Dana is a mouthpiece

August 27, 2008 12:43 AM | Link to this

Do they inject “spin” into the DNA of DOE employees? How else to explain the performance of Dana “We aren’t last, everybody else is just first” Tofig?

First we come on here to spin the SAT scores (it’s not that our scores are bottom of the barrel; it’s that only the offspring of Nobel Prize winners take the test in other states) and then we deny that we spin.

If Sonny Perdue really wanted cultural exchange, he should have sent Kathy’s mouthpiece to Beijing; Dana would have fit right in with the Chinese government (Human rights violations? What human rights violations? You don’t see any protesters do you? No those aren’t “re-education camps”. They’re just Motel 6s undergoing renovation)

Maybe Dana could have picked up on the Chinese word for “accountable” since he seems to have completely excised it from his English vocabulary when discussing the Cox’s performance.

Last in SAT; first in spin. A good day’s work for a government mouthpiece. Mao would be proud.

By jim d

August 27, 2008 7:07 AM | Link to this

TheBlogger,

Did you really, really write a comment that is positive about public education in GA?

Hey, it happens!

By jim d

August 27, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

Hey thomas,

I disagree with a couple of bloggers that feel you are off-base. I personally think you may be on to something.

People came up with that kind of paperwork for a reason. People came up with scripted lessons for a reason. People came up with mandatory posted “standards” for a reason. People came up with schedules posted outside the classroom doors for a reason. People came up with submitting lesson plans for a reason. People came up with classroom observations for a reason.

Based on your comments above the solution may be rather simple.

Hire qualified teachers rather than hiring bodies to fill a chair. In other words hire someone capable to teach

Teach—transitive verb 1 a: to cause to know something

Unfortunately many being hired today define the word teach as 5: to conduct instruction regularly in.

So all we really need do is make certain that schools of education do a better job of TEACHING future teachers the definition of “Teach”. (kinda like it depends on what your definition of “is,” is.

That can’t be to difficult!

By letstellthetruth

August 27, 2008 8:14 AM | Link to this

I don’t know why we even discuss this every year. Everybody knows our scores are dragged down by the large number of poor rural students and urban minorities who take the SAT in GA. These students do poorly on the SAT in every state, they just do not take the test in large enough numbers there to influence the averages.

You can be sure that the white, middle class students of educated parents in GA do just fine on the SAT.

Another reason Georgia’s scores on all standardized tests are declining is because of the recent mass reverse migration to Georgia, and especially Atlanta, of northern urban minorities.

Every day my school gets students who have moved here from Detroit or New York and these kids are usually way behind our local kids academically, with equally deplorable behavior and attitudes. But their SATs will eventually be counted with GA’s scores.

The entire state has become a gigantic version of that neighborhood that suffered white flight as the minorities moved in and ran down the schools. Except there is no place left for them to run now. Are they all going to run to South Carolina or Alabama? They have the same set of problems over there.

We have to stay and fix our schools; but we can’t do it until we are honest with each other about the source of the problem. A good place to start would be to allow people who know about these things to say the word “black,” in any context, without being labeled racist. Until that day comes, we can expect more of the same.

By Teacher, Too

August 27, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

Okay- I’m done. You want to know why the excellent teachers don’t stay at low performing schools? It’s really not the kids. It’s the ridiculous amount of time teachers spend on non-teaching crap. I am angry! Turn in lesson plans, attend data meetings, data-data-data, make sure the EQ is written on the board, make sure the standard is on the board, attend 18 meetings a week, so there is no planning time.

Do I want to teach? Yes- I LOVE teaching. Please, let me teach. Is all this other stuff really necessary? I am a professional- I have lesson plans, I grade student work in a timely manner and return it to them, I give commentary to students, and I communicate with parents on a bi-weekly basis, or more frequently if necessary.

I teach the standards, and my students perform well on the CRCT. Is the rest of all the “stuff” really essential?

I’m done. I only have so many hours in a day. I can either give my students the best teacher that they deserve, or I can do the other “stuff” that the admins assign.

Which would you prefer for your child?

Please, if anyone knows of a private sector job, I’m interested. If there’s a public school principal reading this— please take heed. If I’m describing your kind of school, you’re going to lose your best and most effective teachers.

By jim d

August 27, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

Teacher too,

if teaching is truly your passion, check this link

By Teacher, Too

August 27, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

Thanks, jim d. What a great site!

By Dana @ DOE

August 27, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

ERNEST: Yours is a good question. We have a very small SAT, PSAT, AP and ACT division and they do make sure that students are aware of the ACT as much as they are of the SAT. However, we are still an SAT state. I also know that guidance counselors try to discuss both tests with students.

ERNEST AND JIM D.: We have undertaken whatever efforts we can to promote CTAE programs. We don’t get much money for outreach like this. I know the associations affiliated with CTAE programs (FFA, DECA, FCCLA, etc.) do a lot of outreach. The Superintendent talks up CTAE programs whenever she can. Also, we don’t want people to think that CTAE and college-bound are mutually exclusive. They aren’t. In fact, more and more kids are going both routes.

OLD SCHOOL: I appreciate the comments. I’m gonna pass them along to our CTAE folks for a response. I’ll post when I get one.

Dana

By Dana is a mouthpiece

August 27, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

Doesn’t matter how many washing machines Dana tries to use (our best students got lost on the way to the testing site so they took the ACT instead, the only students who take the test in other states are the offspring of Nobel Prize winners, etc.) there is no way to spin 47 out of 50 as anything other than a damning indictment of the systemic incompetence that starts with Supt. Kathy “Evolution? Who needs the scientific process when we got good old fashioned Bibles to teach us science” Cox.

What’s next is Dana going to announce a new “social studies curriculum” that says there are really 100 states in the United States, along with a press release that at #47 “We’ve moved into the top half.”?

Any more spin coming out of the GaDOE office and the National Weather Service is going to issue a tornado warning.

By Miss Informed

August 27, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

My mother-in-law was a teacher in the Midwest for over 30 years. She had to turn in weekly lesson plans, which the principal read and commented on as well as spent much time observing her classroom - as he did for all teachers.

I don’t see anything like that happening anymore. I have asked many teachers along the way if I could see their lesson plans and (except in the magnet program) NOT ONE ever had them to show! (One even yelled (yes - yelled) at me saying that she didn’t have time to make lesson plans. Others have yelled at me along the way for making simple requests such as “Could you tell me the title of the next book the students will be reading for 9th Grade Lit so that I may go ahead and order a copy for my son - a slow reader? I got quite a lecture over that one! (And yes - I asked in a very nice way.) I have had some really horrible interactions with teachers (Dekalb Schools) over the years - mostly in Middle and HIgh schools. Funnily enough - the best teacher I have seen was a first year teacher - a recent Yale grad - she inspired those kids. How, you ask>?? She treated them with RESPECT - imagine that! She spoke to them as if they had a brain. A far cry from one other “veteran” teacher who stood my son in the hallway for not knowing what a direct object was!

Sign me - SO GLAD to be done with Dekalb County Schools!!! There is so much work to be done, it’s almost an insurmountable task.

By luvs2teach

August 27, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

jim d - I checked your link - did you see the pay scales? I’d lose half my salary. I already lost half when I went from sales to teaching - I can’t lose more! I still need to eat and put a roof over my head.

I had a chance to work at a private school - I turned it down because the pay was too low. DH and I are working on a financial plan that will allow me to take a job like that in the not-too-distant future though.

By jim d

August 27, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

Luvs,

While teaching isn’t for everyone—teaching in the private sector isn’t either. I commend those that do and truly believe them when they say they don’t teach for the money. (i think it’s more the summers off thing :-)

By Thomas

August 27, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this

Teacher too,

I understand your frustration. You see I worked at a Title I, “failing” school (despite what some of these naysayers say). I worked at two Title I elementary schools. I also worked at schools in upper middle class neighborhoods and working class neighborhoods. I saw some of the worst, laziest teachers in the “failing” schools. In contrast, I saw teachers in the higher socioeconomic schools who actually came in on the Saturday before school started to set up their classrooms. In addition, the higher SES schools did not have a revolving door of rookies coming in from college. Teachers stayed at those schools. In fact, there are very few openings at these schools. Think about N. Gwinnett, N. Fulton, E. Cobb, Forsyth Co, etc. Those schools are staffed by career minded teachers with a least five-10 years+ experience. Those teachers would DIE before they left their prospective, suburban schools. They are in heaven. They love the kids they teach.

By luvs2teach

August 30, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

jim d - lol - it’s definitely the summers off!

Seriously, I am trying to put myself in a position to move to a private school in the next 5 - 10 years because I do want to teach and not just push paperwork (and students) along into the void. I just have to plan for the paycut - but with that paycut will come a greater sense of job satisfaction, I’m sure. I’m fortunate that there are a lot of good things happening at my current public school, and for the moment I am pretty satisfied, but if my principal were to leave, I’m not sure what would happen then.

They say the first ten years you try to change the system, the second ten you try to work within it, and the last ten you save for you grandkids to go to private school. My kids are 18 and 21, and I was telling my son, the younger one, that their dad and I wanted their kids to go to private schools. It has nothing to do with the quality of their education or of their teachers - overall I have been extremely happy. Even though their schools are very diverse, it has benefitted them to learn how to get along with all kinds of people. What scares me the most is the liklihood of their kids being part of one more experiment: RTI, new standards, Reading First, Learning Focused, etc…and their teachers being so bogged down with documenting paperwork that they can’t plan effective lessons or give menaingful feedback on grades.

You know?