Get Schooled

By jim d

August 22, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this

How indeed!!

I’ve said it before and I’ll continue to say it until it happens.

Let the Sun Shine on School Expenses Open up school check ledgers by placing them on school websites to allow the public to see how their money is being spent.

Do this and watch as wasteful spending comes to a screeching halt as the educational establishment becomes accountable to taxpayers.

By Stephanie

August 22, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

Last year, my daughter’s classroom was outfitted with surround sound speakers. Each class has it’s own Promethean board. (I probably misspelled it.) The PTA also raised about $13 K and spent it on various luxuries. Now tell me why they need more money. I agree with Jim d, let’s see some accountability!

By jim d

August 22, 2008 9:19 AM | Link to this

Everyone needs to [read this article](http://www.texaspolicy.com/commentariessingle.php?reportid=1372)** paying special attention to the last 5 paragraphs.

By jim d

August 22, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

Steph,

That accountability should also include copies of expense reports by those spending taxpayer dollars.

The problem being that all of this will only be able to be accomplished when a state law is passed, making it mandatory since the people spending now have no accontability and would love to keep it that way.

By Concerned Parent

August 22, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

This could be catastrophic when added to the increased costs of transportation, food and other essentials that the school systems cannot avoid. I am very worried.

Public schools have long complained of the “unfunded mandates” forced on them by the federal NCLB act. Isn’t the Perdue/Cox (hmm, another republican administration) doing the same thing? All the changes in curricula have forced the schools to expend vast sums of money on new textbooks, tutors, math coaches, graduation coaches, training, SES, more testing, etc.

I think the state legislature should either require the state to fund all these so-called reformist GPS programs, or delay their implementation. I also wonder if our legislators have been asleep at the wheel? Why have they allowed the State DOE to have such insane power over education? It is one thing to establish broad academic “standards.” It is a very different matter to require a specific ideology.

By Lee

August 22, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

Where to cut spending?

My local newspaper had a big write up of the upcoming football season. Showed pictures of the coaching staff - ALL TWELVE OF THEM!!

I know that the head coach is listed as a “In school suspension teacher” and has a salary in excess of $90k per year.

So. Where to cut some money from the budget? I say put the sacred cow of athletics on the table and start slicing away.

I also agree with Jim D. The technology is out there to allow every school system to post their financial information on the web. Might want to ask your BOE representative why this is not standard practice.

By jim d

August 22, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

Cutting spending? All that is needed is the will

By jim d

August 22, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

LOL Lee,

ask your BOE representative why this is not standard practice.

The answer is “because there’s been no demand for it” but the bottom line is that the expensive dinners, golf and fishing expeditions at taxpayer expense would have to stop. Really Lee, would you give all that up if you didn’t have to??

It will not change until we innondate our state legislature to pass a bill requiring it!! and they won’t want to pass it because of all the perks they get from lobbyists for the school systems.

By jim d

August 22, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

Lee,

Cutting teacher spending is not the answer. It amounts to little in the big picture. The real waste is at the top. Let’s cut from the top and use a portion of it to reward teachers.

By Lee

August 22, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

Lol Jim D. I sometimes forget who I am writing about.

By jim d

August 22, 2008 10:08 AM | Link to this

Yeah Lee,

I find it humorous that teachers aren’t up in arms over this one. Their salaries are posted publicly for all to see, yet when adminstrators go out to an expensive restuarant on tax payers nothing is noted.

Go figure!

By jim d

August 22, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

Hey here’s an idea. Let’s ask Tony!

How bout it Tony, taxpayers ever pick up the tab for a meal? (not yours of course) :-)

By Jeff

August 22, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

OK, this morning I sat behind a school bus as it made TWO stops in LESS distance than its length. (Two neighboring driveways, each shorter than the bus, and each with one kid getting on the bus.)

How about we implement a state law that says that the bus will stop ONCE PER QUARTER MILE?? While were at it, let’s BAN busses from picking up kids within 2 miles of the school they attend. (In other words, it could pick up the older brother that goes to the HS 4 miles away, but not the younger sister who goes to the ES 1.74 miles away. Again, this is in ADDITION to the one stop per quarter mile law.)

Not only will you save the school system money by using less diesel, you’ll also help alleviate traffic and congestion concerns. It is truly a win/win/win!

By simon

August 22, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

I agree with jim d. We should open up the school budget to the public - including the salaries of all administrators, teachers, coaches, etc.

We should also make teachers prove that they can use all these fancy technologies to make their teaching better before purchasing them.

I also like the idea of putting more restrictions on transportation. I may go with the radius of 1 mile instead of 2 for elementary kids. Also, maybe 1/4 mile might be still a bit too close.

By Tony

August 22, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

“…but the bottom line is that the expensive dinners, golf and fishing expeditions at taxpayer expense would have to stop.”

In our reimbursement procedures, we are allowed a daily limit for meals - $26 for most places, $36 for “high cost” areas. It usually doesn’t even cover dinner. We are not allowed to use tax money for food expenses except under these conditions. Also, we have to travel far away to be eligible for reimbursement. The state auditor’s web-site shows the travel reimbursement for everyone. I would question any administrative postion that had no travel reimbursement along with their posted salary.

When I attend conferences, we do occasionally get in a round of golf, but it has always been at personal expense. I can’t turn it in for reimbursement. I have yet to find that fishing trip and I love to fish.

We have used school based money to provide meals on a couple of occasions, but never tax money. Our school money comes through fund raisers, donations, after-school programs, PTO, and interest from our checking. The meals I’m talking about our working meals. Like, when my school leadership team has a full day meeting to evaluate our plan and review data. We have lunch brought in and it usually costs about $8.00 per person. I do this to get more bang for our buck by not disrupting the meeting. Some people may disagree with how I handle this, but it keeps us on task and we don’t have to regroup after an hour and a half waiting at a restaurant.

Each board of education has an annual audit to review the paper trails for all taxpayers money. They are usually able to fish out inappropriate spending.

Our system does not allow the kind of inappropriate spending you have described, but most all of us are very conscientious about using our resources for students.

One last thought on our use of funds for reimbursement. Most of us only receive reimbursement when we attend professional conferences or are sent on official district business. These trips are paid from one of the categorical funds that can only be spent for these purposes. Any amount that remains unused at the end of the fiscal year is returned to the state.

I hope this answers some of the questions.

By Jeff

August 22, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

On the tech front:

There is easier, and there is cheaper. Most of the time, these are mutually exclusive.

For example: For approx 5-10K/each, I can get a system that would allow a teacher to do EVERYTHING s/he normally does using each of the following: computer, TV, VCR, DVD player, overhead projector, white board. Many of these systems come very integrated, and the components that aren’t integrated the wires can easily be hidden.

Furthermore, instead of maintaining/ upgrading 6 systems independently, now we have 2.

Indeed, the SMART Board/ Promethean board route is the BETTER fiscally sound approach to use when properly designed, implemented, and trained. Where the VAST majority of systems that I have seen with this technology goes wrong is in fact within those last three areas. Particularly the training.

But from a strict ‘which is the better option financially’ perspective, the higher-tech approach wins, hands down.

By Tony

August 22, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Now let me talk about the proposed budget cuts. It was very easy for our governor to act as if he was shielding K-12 from the same kinds of severe budget cuts as other state departments. He announced we would face a 2% cut.

When he decided to withhold the “taxpayers’ relief” money, the effect is an even bigger cut. For our system, the net amount is about 6%. None of us really believed we would be protected from the budget crisis at hand, and none of us have unrealistic expectations about tax money falling from trees to cover the deficits. What most of us have reacted so strongly to is the underhanded way the budget cuts have been passed down from Atlanta to local boards of education.

The other underhanded impact on our budget is the wreckless 2.5% pay increase. It has been passed down to local boards. The 2% across the board cut means local boards have to carry the cost of this raise. The other news is that teachers’ benefits are directly tied to their pay rate. This means the locals also have to foot the bill for the increased costs of these benefits. So, the budget cuts don’t sound that painful when you say 2%, but the pain goes much deeper than the governors’ office has shared.

In return for these tax shortfalls, we would ask to be given some flexibility. Class sizes, flexibility to move funding into other categories, and other responsible strategies that would help us maintain high levels of quality during the budget crunch. As of yet, no mention has been made of allowing us flexibity.

By Ernest

August 22, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

I am concerned about the possible cuts to the education budget. I believe many in our communities don’t realize some of the services our school system provides for member of the community. There are also a GROWING number of children that need additional services. I also wonder where we would be if Speaker Richardson’s GREAT plan had been implemented…..

I’m a strong proponent for effectively leveraging technology to both streamline business processes and eventually reduce headcount. As Jeff pointed out, in order for this to work, training must be built into the plan.

I still have concerns regarding cuts to support staff and admins. Does it bug anyone else to call into the central office and get a series of automated attendants? While I don’t mind this or going to the website in a ‘self service’ manner to get/research information, we must acknowledge there is still a segment of our population that is still somewhat ‘technology illiterate’. Combine this with efforts to ‘go green’ and use less paper, we could have more uninformed parents.

Props to Tony on explaining how expenses are handled. Over the years, more checks and balances have been put in place to prevent fraud. As we saw with the recent credit card scam, there are still some taking advantage of the system. I believe those are more the exceptions than the rule.

I’ve ‘entertained’ government officials in the past and many establish up front what I can and can’t do. Yes, there are still some ‘holes’ but for the most part folks follow the rules regarding expenses.

By TheBlogger

August 22, 2008 11:50 AM | Link to this

First, let me say that there are so many misleading and totally wrong statements here. Too many don’t know the facts and are more than willing to spout complete BS.

For example, Lee, that football coach that you quoted making some outrageous “salary?” That is not the salary. All certified teachers make the same base salary dependent on the years of experience and their certification level. Football coaches make a stipend (as do many others that do extra duties) and that is why their total income is greater. That stipend is decided by the school. The principal has a set amount of money to be allocated however they see fit. If they want to give it all to the football coach, then that is their decision. There is no State Law or mandate that requires anyone to get a stipend. That is the decision of that school.

It is misleading statements like this that make solutions difficult.

Regarding the question at hand - how to cut the budget? I suggest cutting a layer or two of management in the central offices. There is too much “fat” or managers in school systems and not enough teachers and supplies for the students. There is too many outside consultants that use up too much money and really contribute nothing.

Many industries go through a flatting of their organizational chart from time to time, and school systems need to do the same.

Tony while it is true that audits are performed, audits only tell if the amount spent was the amount reported. Audits do not check the validity of the line item. I see, first hand, too many line items that are a waste of money (the consultants for example). Who checks up on that? No one.

By Lee

August 22, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

Blogger, misleading statements??

Fact: The guy was hired to be a football coach.

Fact: The guy makes in excess of $90k per year as per reported in the State of Ga Audit website.

Fact: The guy was given a position of IN SCHOOL SUSPENSION teacher, which alleviates much of the day-to-day responsibilities of a typical teacher in a core subject (ie. math, science, history, etc) and allows him to concentrate on football.

Opinion: He’s not really that good of a football coach.

Opinion: Don’t come crying to me about having to cut a few dollars out of your budget when you pay a guy almost $100k per year to coach football.

There. That clear enoughy for you?

By simon

August 22, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

Jeff

Perhaps too many of purchasing decisions are made based on this purely technical perspective. As a result, we have a Smart board that is being used simply as a whiteboard/blackboard, for example. Whatever we purchase for classroom use, they must be used effectively for instructional purposes. Moreover, as you noted, we can’t ignore the cost of training and support materials, either. When computers first came in to schools, some schools bought a whole bunch of computers with no software. It’s that type of simplistic thinking we have to overcome.

By Jeff

August 22, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

simon:

Actually, training doesn’t cost anything. Simply have one of the tech guys already employed with the system figure the given tech out, then train teachers as part of his job description.

Support isn’t expensive either. 99% of the problems you experience with these systems can easily be solved by a competent IT guy.

And there are a LOT of systems out there that are perfectly free and often do a BETTER job than many things schools pay HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars for. (I speak specifically of AVG antivirus and OpenOffice here, among others.)

By Clarence

August 22, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Tony, for beating me to the punch. There seems to be an obsession with the idea that waste is the number one problem in public education. Is there waste? YES. Should it be eliminated? YES. But these numbers are SMALL, and this is not going to balance budgets in these tough economic times. About 80% of what the state spends on education is teacher salaries. And for those who think Central Office staff is a “waste” I would contend that exceptional systems like Fayette are exceptional because of LEADERSHIP, and that leadership is in the Central Office. Are some Boards guilty of poor leadership and more waste? Yes, and they ARE accountable - to the voters (or in the case of Clayton, the voters who bother to go vote).

By beenthereseenthat

August 22, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

We moved here from a district in the north east that did publish their budget on the school website. It was also possible to pick up a copy at the central office—which I did every year. This document was probably 2 inches thick, single spaced, many budget line items were coded, and the information contained was so dense, even I, an accountant, had a hard time deciphering it.

I whole heartedly support the idea of school budget/expense information being made public. But I also think there should be laws that require it to be clear, plain, and understandable to the average citizen (lets say 9th grade level?). Otherwise, districts will ensure the information is so obfuscated that even CPAs will not be able to interpret it.

Why not require them to publish their budgets in the newspaper at the beginning of every fiscal year? I bet that issue would be a best seller every time!

By Petruchio

August 22, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Tax cuts wouldn’t be so bad if systems were willing to cut unnecessary personnel that don’t have a direct impact on student learning. I agree that line item expenditures and budget needs to be available to the public. If systems were held accountable by the public they served, there wouldn’t be so much unnecessary spending. One system spent a boatload of money on new furniture for their three story central office and then expanded to a central office south. Why so many central office personnel? Audits can’t catch spending problems because they only look at what is on paper, they are not allowed to investigate. How about forensic audits?? There needs to be some kind of accountability! I would love for someone to pass a law limiting how many administrators that a county can fund. Classrooms would then have the necessary supplies.

By Ernest

August 22, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

Petruchio brings up a good point but it always comes back to ‘Who decides’. Who decides ‘who’ is unnecessary within the school system? Are the analyst that analyze data and generate reports that go to the local, state, and federal governments necessary? Are the ‘gatekeepers’ that answer the phones and help with outbound communications and managing schedules important?

For every government regulation that comes each year, there is usually some type of accountability research/reporting that comes with it. For every disability that children come to school with, it may require additional resources to make sure everything is done according to regulations.

DeKalb made a recent decision to reimburse parents wanting to leverage AYP transfers so as not to spend more on transportation. More costs for delivering services will probably be passed on to parents in the coming years. Ross Perot talked about a ‘sucking sound’ years ago and it will ultimately come out of our pockets.

By simon

August 22, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

Jeff

Now I am beginning to think you are a part of the problem than the solution. Training here must be about how to use the equipment effectively in teaching various subject matters - not just how to turn on/off the machine. That level of training is cheap, of course. Supports are about specific subject matters, too. If you want to simulate some scientific experiments, then you need a good simulation program. Now, there may be free software out there, but somehow teachers must find them.

I think we flood schools with technology thinking they are more cost effective without thinking more clearly what it is that we are trying to do more effectively. IT guys just think about the basic stuff, which teachers do need to do, but if we are getting those technologies for instruction, appropriate training and support are critical, and they are NOT cheap.

By Lee

August 22, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

Lest ye forget, public schools are first and foremost, GOVERNMENT schools. Charlie Reese, one of my favorite columnists, said it best:

“Government is inherently incompetent, and no matter what task it is assigned, it will do that task in the most expensive and inefficient way possible.”

The teacher salary structure, which pays a premium for teachers with graduate degrees, is a prime example. Do you really think we need PE teachers with PHDs overseeing a gym class playing volleyball? I don’t. Do you think a first grade teacher needs a Masters degree to teach when not too many years ago, elementary teachers were not required to have college degrees - and they taught very well I might add.

By the same token, schools cannot hire a competent Chemistry teacher because of the huge discrepancy in pay between a first year teacher salary and the private sector.

In the last ten years, my hometown has built three new schools - and shut down three existing schools. Does that make sense? Especially when you consider that other schools in the city look like a trailer park?

Not to me it doesn’t.

By Jeff

August 22, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

simon:

The new generation of teachers - my generation - is EXTREMELY tech savvy.

Put this technology in their hands, and you won’t have either issue you mention - as long as they have not been pre-indoctrinated by the University Schools of Education.

Even at SMARTBoard/Promethean’s most BASIC uses - as replacements and integrated approaches to all of the various technologies I mentioned earlier - they save money in the long run AND teachers can use them just as effectively as they would any of the technologies they replace.

Then you put this in the new generation teachers’ hands, sit back, and watch. TRUST me, you will be AMAZED at what can be done.

The problem is not the technology. The problem is out-dated teaching practices. (And I’n not talking lecture vs interactive here. Indeed, these technologies can take a lecture and MAKE it interactive - and silent. Imagine no longer having to raise your hand to ask a question. Instead, you type it on the laser keypad beamed onto your desk. Instead of one person answering a question or everyone answering and the teacher not knowing that little Suzy doesn’t really know what is going on, EVERYONE can use the response pad on their desks to answer the question SILENTLY, and NO ONE other than the student in question and the teacher knows that the student is having difficulty.

And then there are the civilian-legal covert surveillance devices… proof of exactly what went down in the classroom, and no one knows it is even there…

By TheBlogger

August 22, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

Lee Again, your read your “facts” all wrong. A real teacher salary (and yes, coaches must be certified teachers in GA) must adhere to the pay schedule of the school system. I know of no school system in GA that pays as high as $90,000 for base salary for a teacher unless they have a PhD and have taught for something like 30 years. APS doesn’t even pay that much and I believe that they are the highest paying school system in GA.

Again I state…. yes, while a coach may “bring home” $90,000 per year, that is not their base salary. That amount would have to include the base plus a rather large stipend supplied by the school. And, I refer you to my previous post about stipends.

Lee - your so called statement of “facts” is very misleading.

Also, Lee, the salary structure in GA for teachers is a result of tradition. I don’t agree with all of the details, but it would take major overhaul to change it. IMHO, high school teachers that teach subjects such as calculus and physics should be paid more than elementary teachers that teach the alphabet. This is how it is done in a number of States to our North. However, in GA, all teachers are paid on the same schedule, even PE teachers.

However, I will say that teacher pay isn’t the real problem with the budget IMHO. We have a teacher shortage in GA in many areas and there is something called “supply and demand” that concludes that teacher pay should be increased to draw more and better teachers to the profession. IMHO the real budget problem is the number of management layers in our schools and school systems. I am aware that some schools have more administrators (principal, assistant principals, etc.) than they have teachers in math - that is just crazy. I am also aware that some school systems have two towers of offices filled with secretaries and managers for their central office - that is also just crazy. IMHO, there is a lot of money to be saved by reducing the management in school systems.

By TheBlogger

August 22, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

Regarding technology….

IMHO, one can be a great teacher with no technology at all. Technology is not the answer. Often, students know more about new technology than adults.

Technology often costs big bucks. It is not a way to save money.

By Ernest

August 22, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

Maybe I’m missing something but I thought ‘most’ school systems put their budgets on the web for review. I thought most school systems also held public hearings to review the budget before adopting it. Yes, the can be challenging to read when you consider all the revenue sources and various rules of accountability but can one get a good idea how the monies are spent for a school system?

I understand anywhere from 86-93% of the budget is salaries and benefits. It is confusing when you then attempt to determine how much is spent on instruction because you also have to factor in salaries and benefits in those calculations.

By jim d

August 22, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

Right Tony,

“Each board of education has an annual audit to review the paper trails for all taxpayers money. They are usually able to fish out inappropriate spending.”

That would be the school systems CFO that is responsable to assure proper spending. Can we say Jeff weiller? You are familar with his circumstance right? (muddy the waters not,— well at least in gwinnett)

BTW, no offense meant here—you are middle management—upper management takes much more liberty with tax dollars. That would be why they watch you so closely.

beenthere

No problems getting and cyphering the budgets—want I want to see is the actual outlay and to whom it went. Check ledgers would work just dandy for this end particullarl if they wewre to inclede the acconts the charges were to. Kinda like my monthly financial reports here at work.

Then show me the lobby money as a separate line item!!

By simon

August 22, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this

Jeff

Trust me, I have seen many young teachers use Smart Board in their teaching, and their lessons were far from amazing. In fact, some are horrible. Your blind faith and blanket blaming of college of education are a sure recipe for wasted money with no actual improvement in education - both teaching/learning wise and financially.

Lee

I often hear people calling public schools “government schools,” and make a similar argument about governments being inherently ineffective. There are many countries where public schools are doing much better than our public schools. So, what is wrong with US that OUR governments are so inefficient?

By RandolphcountyITspecialist

August 22, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

Jeff is just suffering from diarrhea of the mouth as usual. When he was teaching here, for less then a year, he couldn’t even install windows xp on his computer. Between that and his lack of classroom management we were all glad to see him go.

By catlady

August 22, 2008 6:03 PM | Link to this

Re teacher salaries: local systems can CHOOSE to pay for an “unearned” position. Our system does that to “reward” folks.

In addition to a full financial disclosure, I would like to see a printed functional audit: who teaches how many students for how long, for instance.

At our school we have a half time teacher who gets 50 (fifty!) minutes of planning time. She is paid for four hours, but spends a little over three working with kids. Now, I would be the FIRST one to tell you planning time is important, but when your full time teachers (8 hrs plus duties) have 25 minutes to plan, it seems incredible.

I would also like to see required public publishing teacher and administrator experience and certification, updated yearly.

By Jeff

August 22, 2008 6:49 PM | Link to this

simon:

You want genuine change in education? Build a school staffed EXCLUSIVELY by TAPP/TFA teachers. Make it a charter school so that 90% of the educrat rules don’t apply. Give them the tech as I’ve described.

You’ll get results so high NO ONE has EVER dared imagine them.

By simon

August 22, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this

Jeff

I’m sure there will definitely be changes all right. I wouldn’t mind seeing the results at all.

By Old School

August 23, 2008 7:47 AM | Link to this

Jeff, it’s one thing to know HOW to use the technology and another still to use the technology EFFECTIVELY.

Way back when the state decided every teacher would have to be subjected to In Tech training, we got a week of 8 hour days working with software that was not subsequently made available to ALL our teachers. Well, some of our weakest (I use that word to avoid using “sorriest.”) teachers immediately latched on the magical PowerPoint. Once they learned how to create a slide with all the literal “bells & whistles,” they seized on this teaching tool and immediately integrated it into their “teaching.” By that I mean several required (and do so to this day) their students to produce powerpoints on given topics to present to the class. Some teachers even require 50 to 100 or more slides per student presentation. (Mind you, none of us have ever been “staff developed” with how to make an EFFECTIVE powerpoint, just how to “do” one.) The students are given lots of computer lab time to create their masterpieces thereby eliminating the need for any real instruction. Then a couple of weeks are devoted to the actual presentations. Mind-numbing. Imagine a typical presentation: Slide after slide crammed with text copied from the book that zips onto the screen accompanied by sound effects or rock music and the droning of the student voice reading all that text. Slide after slide…student after student.

I protested in an interview by the New York Times columnist and my comment about these and even teacher-made ppss being “…full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” and “All pomp and no circumstance” caught the attention of an Australian gent who called and offered instructional info on what makes a truly effective presentation- powerpoint or otherwise. I listened, I learned, I shared, I was ignored. The mind-numbing, interest-killing productions continue.

I have a smartboard with a projector that no longer works and no money to repair it. So I resort to other methods including trotting out the 1950s filmstrips and projector which, when paired with a whiteboard, grabs the students and pulls them into lively participation…when used sparingly.

Technology can soon go the way of the overhead transparency loaded with words and kids will tune it out like they have videos, long lectures, and endless worksheets.

34 years and I’m still learning and sometimes some of the ancient stuff really works…

…when used EFFECTIVELY.

By luvs2teach

August 23, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this

Old School - last year I pulled out “Old Blue” - our opaque projector - boy, was that a hit!

By confused

August 23, 2008 5:05 PM | Link to this

off topic

This has nothing to do with the topic of this column/blog, but I can’t think of any other places to pose this question.

Recently I was made aware of a math department policy at my son’s HS that no exams/quizzes were to go home with students. Rather, they were kept by teachers. They say that parents can come any time to view them - of course, that is an exaggeration because I am pretty sure they will not be available if I wanted to come over to school at 9pm or over a weekend.

I was surprised and dismayed about this policy as exams and quizzes are supposed to be learning tools, as well as assessment tools. I just don’t know why they are depriving their students of this important tool and preventing them from developing an importat study skill. I was just wondering if this is a fairly common practice around here (Metro Atlanta).

Thanks, and again, I apologize for posting an off-topic question.

By TheBlogger

August 23, 2008 5:34 PM | Link to this

confused That policy of which you speak is being used more and more. And, there is a valid and reasonable explanation to use that policy.

The standardized tests use a bank of questions, usually stored in some computer file. To create a test, a program selects random questions for various categories of content. To simulate these standardized tests (and prepare students), individual teachers and even entire schools or school systems have started using a similar method.

So, what that means is that students cannot have their test questions after a test is taken. The reason is because those same questions may be used again for the next class. The questions must be kept so that the next class doesn’t just memorize the answers (as opposed to actually learning the content).

It is fine for the student and/or the parent to come by and view the question and even to discuss it with the teacher. But, the test questions cannot and should not be kept by them.

So, I hope that you can better understand and that you are no longer dismayed.

By Jeff

August 23, 2008 6:17 PM | Link to this

Catlady, Old School, Lisa:

Are y’all OK in this storm???

Here just north of Albany we’re getting a few twisters and a LOT of rain, but I’ve heard about a kid dieing down near you, Old School.

Just checking in…

By confused

August 23, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this

The Blogger

So, basically schools are putting their convenience before students’ learning? I think it is outrageous. The best way to prepare students for standardized tests is to help them understand the materials - just copying the methods of testing has NOTHING to do with learning.

Am I completely off base to be upset with this practice?

By cricket

August 24, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

Yes, you are completely off base to be upset. Each test question is based on a standard or “objective”. The student does not need to have a copy of a particular test question to be made aware of the standard he or she has not mastered. For example, If the question was “Susie has four bags of marbles. Each bag contains 6 marbles. How many marbles does Susie have in all?” If the student does not answer this question correctly, we know that the student has not mastered the single digit multiplication standard. There is no need to go back and re-hash the details of Susie and the marbles. The point was multiplication not a girl named Susie. The student can be made aware of the unmastered standard and what he/she needs to work on without getting a copy of the test to keep. After all, we are trying to have the student understand the concept of single digit multiplication in a variety of applications not just a certain test question.

By catlady

August 24, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Jeff, We are okay up here in the mtns. Not a DROP of rain yet, although it has gotten within 50 miles…THAT should perk up my garden, right? (long distance osmosis) We’ve had a little breeze, also. Perhaps the rain will come if the remnants of the storm finally head more easterly.

In my general area, all we have for news is the dogfight arrest and Bigfoot, as far as I know.

Re: technology. We have several smartboards available for check out but no one has time to plan the lessons(I think HS and MS does better with this, as they have waayy more than 25 minutes of planning time), and those who were lucky to get the computer assisted projection systems are having them break down but there is no money to repair. Me, I finally got a whiteboard (after being in a room for 5 years with a chalkboard and bad allergies) and some markers so I am set. I want a tshirt like Rob Lowe on the Get Fuzzy comic strip that says “Lowe Tech” :)

On test questions: don’t parents have access to the CRCT practice tests online that could help them target problem areas if they wish?

By Old School

August 24, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

Thanks for asking, Jeff. We just got power again (went off Friday around 6 and came back on 1-6 a.m. Sat, then back off until a couple of hours ago.

We did lose a 12 year old. I cannot fathom parents letting kids loose in the kind of weather we’ve had. Gusty winds, trees falling…not the kind of weather conducive to exploring. Parts of our town are still out and my classroom and the rest of our wing have water damage. They sandbagged the doors but water gets under the walls. I’ve said since the 1996 remodel: we’ve got a 60 year old pig with fresh lipstick. Maybe they’ll listen to me now. But hey! Our 4.5 million dollar new gym with the leaky room will be fine as soon as they get the water pumped out!

If it ever quits raining and blowing, I’ll get the limbs up out of the yard and off the house. Otherwise, I’m enjoying the power while it lasts.

By confused

August 24, 2008 1:38 PM | Link to this

cricket

My son is in 11th grade, but this simple multiplication problem would do.

How would I, as a parent, know my child’s problem is about his concern about girl named Susie without seeing his test paper? If he draws 4 groups of 6 circles but write the answer 23, that might mean simply counting error. However, it may or may not mean he doesn’t understand multiplication - he was simply trying to solve the problem using the method that made sense to him. I want to see how he did on other problems where multiplication was made much more explicit. If he had written 4+6=10, it tells me something about his lack of understanding about “each bag contains 6 marbles.”

Only looking at actually what he did on this problem, and others, I can get a better sense of what he does and does not understand. Simply knowing he got this problem incorrect doesn’t tell me, as a parent, much at all. Who knows, it might be that my son is dyslexic and chose (b) instead of (d) if the problem was multiple choice.

Isn’t this a valid concern?

By Old School

August 24, 2008 2:08 PM | Link to this

Jeff, one more thing I forgot: The gentleman who jumped in and tried to save the boy, got caught in the same dam overflow (not trying to be funny, folks) and required rescuing himself. He’s in critical condition.

By TheBlogger

August 24, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

confused In no way at all did I ever say that schools were copying testing materials from the State. That isn’t what I said and that isn’t what I meant.

What I did say is that teachers and schools could be realistically creating a bank of questions of their own that are valid and good to use for all students. And, similar to the State standardized questions, they do not want those particular questions released to the public (or to the students). The reason for this, as I have stated, is because they realistically may need to reuse those good and valid questions for the next class.

It isn’t a matter of convenience for anyone. It is a matter of maintaining good and valid questions. It is a matter of fairness for all students to answer the same quality of questions. It is a matter for students to practice taking these types of standardized tests during school to prepare them for the State standardized tests.

Should you be upset or concerned? I don’t think so. From your posts, it seems that you are determined to find something or anything that is “bad” or “evil” about this practice when it is not at all.

As you stated in your own first post about this, the teacher/school is willing to allow you and/or the student to view the questions. How can you feel that there is something sinister going on here? The only thing that you cannot do is have your very own copy of those questions.

Your student should already know the content contained in those questions. And, I’m sure that the teacher taught the content during class. And, I hope that your student has a textbook with the content in it. There are no secrets. It is all right there.

By Tony

August 24, 2008 7:55 PM | Link to this

confused’s concern about not sending tests home is a valid one. There is no reason that teacher made tests have to be kept on-site. The claims about developing banks of “valid” questions is a cop out. My take on that is two-fold: the teachers are too lazy to develop new items or the teachers are not competent with the material themselves. Tests should be used as teaching tools and keeping them locked up prevents students’ access to this tool.

Yes, it is time consuming to develop good test items. However, as a chemistry and physics teacher it was part of my practice to return materials to students. I would also allow retakes of exams. Of course, I developed alternate questions. Being competent with the content and committed to having my students learn meant that I would work my tail off in order for students to succeed.

By can we grade admin too?

August 24, 2008 9:16 PM | Link to this

Very easy to rewrite chem/physics…just change the numbers in the problems. Much more difficult to come up with good questions in other content areas. Time spent rewritting tests could be better spent…of course those in administration seem to think teachers have all sorts of time. Which probably explains why they waste so much of our time with useless meetings and other paper pushing activities. If the kids have their notes and other materials, why do they need a copy of the test? most teachers also have study guides and go over the tests with the students so they can see their mistakes. Sorry Tony…I don’t think too highly of administration, nothing personal.

By sacrifice students?

August 24, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this

I think if admin’s make teachers spend their time on something that is irrelevant to their main duty, that is a valid concern. However, that should not excuse teachers from doing their job. They should not short change their students’ learning for the sake of their convenience. This seems to be another sign of teacher incompetence.

By TheBlogger

August 24, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this

Tony Then my question to you is….. why does this parent (or this student) desperately need the test questions after the test is over?

Did you make test questions that weren’t covered in the book? Did you make test questions that weren’t discussed in class?

Since you stated that you created new questions for your retests, why would the student need those old questions so desperately?

To answer “to study” or “to learn the material” is a cop out since the content is in the book and also should be in the student’s notebook (from class discussions, etc.). And, as a physics/chemistry teacher, certainly you gave them homework that they could study and also you reviewed those answers with them.

I fail to see a clear and reasonable reason to give the parent/student old test questions, and I do see a clear and reasonable reason not to do so.

sacrifice students? I agree with what you said except for the very end. My administration insists upon teachers doing all sorts of things that have nothing to do with classroom teaching. These things take a great deal of time and yes, it does take away from servicing the students. How in the world is this the fault of the teachers or be a “sign of teacher incompetence?”

My administration when so far as to specifically state that if we didn’t do their extra jobs, they would find some way to fail us on our annual review. And, it won’t matter if we were great teachers in the classroom or not.

So, guess what the teachers do? Yep, less focus in the classroom in order to do their extra jobs. After all, even teachers need to keep their job and get a paycheck. And, in GA, teachers have no union to support us and certainly no State laws to protect us.

By confused

August 25, 2008 5:44 AM | Link to this

The Blogger

I really have no intent of criticizing the teacher for any of the problems on the test. As I have explained in another post, I just want to know HOW my son is understanding (or not understanding) a particular topic. I happen to believe the issue is not simply just matter of whether or not you understand something. If I want to help my son, I need to know how he is thinking about the specific math idea.

I started looking at his homework paper, and I noticed that he had misunderstanding about the function notation - I would not have seen this if I was only given the information he got a problem correct or incorrect.

Given so many of HS courses do have comprehensive final exams, I don’t see why students (and their parents) should have an access to their unit exams and quizzes to study. I agree with Tony that building a bank of valid questions seems to be rather questionable practice - and by the way, the department chair hasn’t told me that that is the reason, either.

By college professor

August 25, 2008 6:16 AM | Link to this

I am a college professor, and I find this practice totally illogical. Whether we teach at colleges or K-12, we are all in the business of educating our students. Exams ans quizzes aren’t only for giving students grades but also to help them understand what their misunderstandings may have been. Having old exams and quizzes are, therefore, very important for their future study. I expect my students to use their exams and quizzes to study. This HS practice seems to encourage students to view as exams as something you take and then forget about it - The Blogger seems to have that perspective. Most, if not all, important ideas in any subject cannot be assessed by a single problem. Knowing what a students understands (or doesn’t understand) about a specific topic cannot be simply identified by knowing whether or not s/he did this or that problem correctly. I want my students to analyze what they did on the exam as a whole and make this type of self-assessment as well. Based on my 15+ years of experiences in teaching at college level, I can confidently say that someone like The Bloger’s attitude toward exam usually does not recover well if they do poorly in any exam.

By algebra teacher

August 25, 2008 7:40 AM | Link to this

Perhaps The Blogger is thinking of multiple choice tests. I agree with The Blogger if the test was totally multiple choice, getting the tests back probably won’t help students (or parents) much help - although a good multiple choice questions supposed to have a good set of incorrect answers that might be able to identify common misconceptions. So, maybe there are some values to getting the exams back.

I do, however, question the wisdom of giving multiple choice math tests. It’s ok to have some multiple choice questions (and I agree that writing a good multiple choice question is extremely difficult), but a test shouldn’t be all multiple choice questions.

By Jeff

August 25, 2008 8:00 AM | Link to this

Old School:

OUCH!!!

Some areas of my county are under a flood warning the rest of the week - Kinchafoonee Creek is supposed to crest about 4’ above flood stage due to the rain - but that is all we had. Some minor power outages, but NOTHING like what y’all got.

And now the remnants of this dang thing are boomeranging back AGAIN and coming at us… starting to understand how Florida feels!!

By bearcasey

August 25, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

Ex-coach ((football, basketball, baseball) of 30 years here. Excellent AP history teacher as well. Here is the deal. Fulton County pays modest stipends for coaching. One year I coached varsity and JV football, JV and freshmen basketball, and varsity baseball. My stipend for all this was about $14,000 (back in the late 1980’s.) I earned every penny. The BIG money in athletics comes from independent BOOSTER CLUBS. Face it, in Georgia, football is far more important than academics. Ever hear of a booster club paying a $10,000 bonus to a stud calculus teacher? If you think this will change soon, you haven’t lived in Georgia very long.

By dragonlady

August 25, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

I am sitting at home today because schools are closed. Fay has damaged many classrooms which are sitting in water, there are trees down everywhere blocking streets, buses can’t run because roads in the county are impassable.

Budget cuts are really going to hurt us. The sec. at our school is there today, watching out for us. If water gets in the bookroom and the media center, where will we find the money to replace such essentials? I don’t even want to think about the computer labs. Some of the classrooms are flooded.

And it is raining as I write this.

By Jeff

August 25, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

dragon:

Are you down there with Old School or somewhere else?

By Dragonlady

August 25, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

Jeff: Yes. I teach in Thomasville, about 15 miles from the Florida line.

By TheBlogger

August 25, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

confused Well, I am one of those teachers that do not allow students to keep old tests.

In addition to the valid reasons I have already mentioned (not letting good and valid questions “out” so that the next class already knows the answers), I am also concerned with the environment. I will save the tests and literally re-use them (recycle them) for the next class, thus saving paper and trees. I will use the same test until a student writes on it or until the paper wears out. Students are supposed to write on the answer sheet and not on the test itself.

It is not because I am lazy. It is not because of anything sinister. It is simply for the reasons I stated.

In the 7 years that I have taught, I think that a total of 3 parents have come by after school to look at the test. And, only 1 questioned my policy of not giving out the test questions.

By simon

August 25, 2008 1:51 PM | Link to this

The Blogger

Would you have met the parents if they couldn come only at 8pm on weekday night? 10 am on Sunday? Why do you make it difficult for the parents? Oh, I guess you really don’t want parents as the partner.

You ARE lazy - and incompetent. You can come up with only so few valid questions? Give me a break. It’s a b*&#s(&#. Environment??? What a cop out. How do you know the questions are valid to start with? How are you establishing the validity? You are just collecting old problems even though you have no idea whether or not questions are valid.

If you are a public school teacher, then I think any parent can force you to release all your problems if they want to. You just haven’t had a parent who care enough - either that, or they just don’t care what you are teaching.

By confused

August 25, 2008 1:53 PM | Link to this

The Blogger

Well, I guess we just have to say we agree to disagree. I would never want my kids to be in your class, and I hope you make your policy clear enough to students/parents before the school year so that they can move to another class. That seems to be only fair.

By TheBlogger

August 25, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this

simon LOL. You make so many statements as if you know me. You don’t know me at all. And, you don’t know my students nor their parents. Re-read your post and I hope that you see how silly you appear.

By the way…

confused Yes, my policy is clearly stated on the syllabus that is signed by both the student and parent. Also, if students ever want out of my class, I assist them with all due expediency. However, I am one of those teachers where more students seem to want into my classes than out….. unfortunate for me because that means that my classes are always full (or over flowing).

college professor I actually adopted this approach from my old college physics professor. He maintained a bank of questions in a file and ran a random number generator to select questions for tests. He would never allow students to keep the questions. By the way, this professor earned an international award for teaching at the college level (he created a web site) and is now retired.

However, he (like me) did go over the tests after the fact and ensured that every student understood what they missed and why.

The last comment I’ll make on this topic…. I just don’t understand the over-reaction to this. If the student learns the content, what difference does it make whether they have the test questions or not? If the student knows the content, they will get the answers correct anyway, right? If the student knows the content, why would they want old test questions?

The answer is simple. The answer is because these old test questions are valuable to those students that haven’t taken the test yet. The ‘new’ students will then not need to learn the content and only need to memorize the test answers.

I became a teacher to get students to learn how to think, not to memorize answers.

By confused

August 25, 2008 5:54 PM | Link to this

The Blogger

You (maybe someone else, but I can’t remember) have suggested that I had a sinister motive to somehow find something wrong with test problems earlier. Of course, that was far from the truth. You last question “why would they want old test question?” can be simply answered by saying “so that students can study to fully understand the topic you are trying to teach.” I don’t know why you have to come up with this sinister reason that we are somehow trying to get something out of the old exam problems.

Way back when I was a graduate school student, our math department stopped keeping exams because those who want to somehow get the old exams would manage to do so - some frat boys would split up their responsibility and try to memorize problems on each page, or copy each problem as the profs are going over the exam. Then, they pool together those problems.

The department realized that this practice favored certain groups of students - like frat boys and athletes on various team sports. So, instead, they started keeping the old tests in the library.

Anyway, this is my last word, too. I’m trying to communicate with the department chair. I’m willing to go to the principal and the BOE, if necessary.

By can we grade admin too?

August 25, 2008 6:35 PM | Link to this

It is very simple, keeping the tests is a matter of test security. Those people b*** about the tests not being returned have no idea how much time goes into making a good test. Some questions may be added or deleted but to rewrite entire tests 2 times per year (if you are on a block schedule) and for 2 or 3 different courses is absurd. As far as meeting parents at some off time, keep in mind that teaching is our “job”. We also have families and other things we need to do. Why should we be expected to work around other people’s schedules? Is our time away from work deemed “unimportant”?

On topic, maybe the schools can save money by going paperless…haha…

By luvs2teach

August 25, 2008 8:32 PM | Link to this

on the testing topic - I’ve taken classes at several different colleges around the country (MA, CA, GA) - rarely were we allowed to keep our tests, although we always went over them. Even as a student, I saw no reason to keep a test once I went over it and understood my mistakes.

As a science teacher, I let the kids keep their labs and quizzes, but I usually keep the tests (although I never reuse them from year to year - no philosophy about that, I just change things too much to do that). The labs and quizzes have all the material the students would need to study for the test.

I usually do a class set of tests, to save paper - the students write on their own paper. We always go over the tests, and I do an item analysis on the test so I know if there were any questions that gave the students trouble. The kids keep their answer sheet, but I keep the test. If a parent ever asked, I would give him or her the test, no problem, but I really don’t see the point, nor have I ever had a parent ask.

There is a policy in my county for the math teachers not to give out the tests, although they do go over them in class (not sure about quizzes though). Since I don’t teach math, I can’t say how many parents have asked, but realize the decision may not be the teachers’ nor is it necessarily out of laziness or some evil plot.

By simon

August 25, 2008 9:48 PM | Link to this

admin:

If teachers say parents can come look at the test anytime they want so there is no need to return the test, then teachers seem to have an obligation to meet with the parents around their schedule, not teachers. You want to do something for your convenience, so you should return a favor to parents by allowing them to do something at their convenience. It seems pretty fair to me, doesn’t it?

luv2teach: which county do you teach in?

This whole discussion is an interesting contrast with the question about guns on campus. People say that criminals won’t follow the law and they will bring guns to campus, so why shouldn’t law abiding citizens be allowed to carry guns? Here we are talking about “law abiding” students/parents wanting to know how they (or their kids) are doing by looking at the exam, and some teachers say we should not return exams because the bad guys are going to simply get the exams and memorize the answers.

Do teachers really think that so many of their students will simply try to memorize answers - of course they have to memorize problems and answers so that they can match the correct answers, right? Or is there only one form of exams so that students can simply memorize “A-C-C-B-A-D-A-A-…”??? Don’t we ask any essay questions or math problems where you have to show your steps completely any more?

By luvs2teach

August 25, 2008 10:34 PM | Link to this

simon - I prefer to not say. It is in the greater metro area, however.

I’m shy because the one time I put my name to an AJC blog, I ended up testifying in court (as a witness, not defendant, lol) - no kidding.

I make class sets because at a typical amount of 4 pages times 125 students, that’s a ream of paper. I get one box per semester; the rest comes out of my own money. It’s also environmentally more responsible, and I do online tests as well, when feasible. I do essays for quizzes; I don’t do them for tests. My tests are MC, but they are application based - lots of charts and graphs to interpret.

No, we don’t think they are going to memorize the whole test - no reason to - they can text each other the answers, if need be. Technology has made cheating so much easier. In all seriousness, a creative cheater doesn’t need to memorize, they simply need to hide the answers well enough and be sneaky enough to access them. Cheating is unbelievably common; kids look at grades as just being a game, or are under so much pressure they feel the end justifies the means. cheating is also looked at as not being entirely wrong. The answers WILL get out and they WILL get used - just like there are people who WILL cheat on their taxes and justify it to themselves. It’s human nature.

BTW - teachers don’t get access to every question on the CRCT either - we can have access to released copies on the DOE site (not 8th grade science, though, because it’s new), but there are many questions we can’t see.

I still don’t see why this is an issue, though. As a parent, I have never requested a copy of my kids’ tests; as a student, I have never requested copies of mine; as a teacher, I have never had a parent request a copy. It’s a non-issue for me, really. I don’t get it. There’s only so many ways to ask a question or solve a problem.

By luvs2teach

August 25, 2008 10:39 PM | Link to this

Another thought on the prevalence of MC tests is data analysis - most schools have data teams or require their teachers to analyze test data - mine does. It’s much easier to do with a MC test - scantron machines will even let you know how many people missed certain questions - a tool I use frequently to rule out bad questions or badly taught topics.

I make it up by having all my quizzes be short answer and essay - no MC there. Plus it’s a better way to assess misconceptions that can then be retaught before the test.

Good teachers don’t rely on only test and quizzes as assessments anyway. I’ve used performance assessments as summative assessments and I use a whole variety of things for formative assessments.

By TheBlogger

August 25, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

confused Your reason for wanting students to keep the old tests is for them to “study?” Sorry, but that excuse doesn’t hold water.

Students can study the textbook. Students can study homework problems. Students can study labs (if any). Students can study old quizzes. And, students can study their notebook that should contain notes from class activities. Each and every one of those should have all of the content that a student needs to study. There is no new content on a test to study.

The only new thing for a student to learn from old tests is memorizing specific answers with hopes to find those same questions on the next test.

Let’s look at a simple example to prove my point. There is a test question number one:

2 + 2 = ?????

Now, this is obviously a question designed to test the student’s ability to add. And, if the student has learned the process of addition, then there should be no problem with coming up with the answer.

But, why in the world does a student need to know that question one is 2 + 2 = ???. There is absolutely no reason for a student to know that. And, if the student learned the process of addition (the content of the course), then the specific test question should not matter, right? For example, the question could be:

2 + 3 = ?????

Or,

3 + 4 = ?????

A student that has learned the process of addition should have no problems with any of those questions, right?

So why is it so very important to know that the question on an old test was 2 + 2 = ????

Please tell me. I am dying to know your answer!

By can we grade admin too?

August 25, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this

I have never heard a teacher (or anyone else for that matter) tell a parent they could come in “any time” to do anything. There are school hours and they are posted for the public. My bank isn’t open to make cashier’s checks whenever I want them, they have set hours.

Also; I am NOT in the customer service industry! Parents are NOT customers! Some people are going to find that difficult to swallow but they need to build a bridge and get over it. My job is to provide the opportunity for students to get an education, not kiss their parent’s a*. As a parent, if you don’t feel your child is getting an adequate education, send them to private school or homeschool them. But parents who feel they have a “right” to demand the things they demand has reached the point where some teachers are going to put their foot down…with a very loud THUD. Jim D. has it right, when teachers finally decide to stand up and not take any more crap, some real change will happen.

By confused

August 26, 2008 5:52 AM | Link to this

The Blogger

I think it is best if we agree to disagree. I personally think your perspective is misguided, but I have no intention of changing your practice.

As far as your question is concerned, I believe I addressed it in my response to Cricket earlier, so read that one. I hope a math test goes much beyond simply asking 2+2, even for first graders. Moreover, even if a test consists of 40 basic computation problems, there are misconceptions you can identify by looking at the whole test - it may be that a child has difficulty with the sums that go over 10. It may be a child has difficulty with multiplication facts with 7. Whatever it is, as a parent, I want to know what my child’s misunderstanding may be so that I can address it.

By the way, if your test is just a collection of 2+2=? I don’t see what’s so big deal about creating a bank of valid questions.

By Math Educator

August 26, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

The Blogger,

Perhaps I can shed some lights on your question.

It might be the case that you can’t get much out of just looking at the question, 2+2=?, and what a child wrote as her/his response. However, we can learn a lot about a child’s thinking about the “process of addition” by looking at the test as a whole. After all, that’s the reason teachers write a test, not just individual problems but the test as a whole.

So, for example, you might see that a child answers 2+7=? incorrectly. What conclusion can you draw? Not much. However, you look at other problems on the test (which are, by the way, intentionally included by the teacher so that s/he can make this type of assessment) and notice that the child does fine with 7+2=? or even 9+2=?. Now, the child only writes the answers, so we can’t really be sure about how s/he was thinking. However, at this point, a teacher might suspect that the child is simply counting to find the answer of addition, AND s/he always start from the first addend. Thus, when the second addend gets bigger, she sometimes makes mistake in her counting.

Children make errors because they are logical. Unfortunately, somewhere in their logic, there is a flaw. Tests and quizzes (and as luv2teach said from other formal and informal observations of children) can tell us what that flaw is. That’s the reason teachers, including you, are so concerned about the quality of a test (and individual problems).

When a child answers a particular problem incorrectly, that is a symptom. However, teachers and parents (and with older students, students themselves) need to analyze the symptoms to determine what may be the cause of the symptom(s).

Perhaps confused wants to see the test herself/himself because the teacher is not communicating the diagnosis. Without knowing what is causing the symptoms, parents (and students) can’t address it.

You may be thinking that you are addressing the root cause of the symptoms when you go over the exam, but I’m sure you have had plenty of experiences that the same students will make the same mistake again on the same problem a few weeks later. That’s in part because they are logical being and they fall through the same trap once again because they haven’t had opportunities to clearly examine their errors themselves - not just simply shown how to answer the problem.

I think going over a test is like taking an aspirin for your headache. Headache will go away and you feel you have gotten better. However, after its effect wears off, unless the root cause is treated, headache will come back.

I hope all of my students who are aspiring to be elementary or middle school teachers can provide that level of diagnosis to parents - whether or not they return their tests to students. It might be that the fact confused is concerned is simply a symptom. S/he might be perfectly happy if the teacher involved can communicate to her/him more clearly what the child’s problem is beyond simply saying “s/he scored 65 on the test.”

By TheBlogger

August 26, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

confused and others….

It seems that (if I understand you correctly) you are interested in assisting the teacher with evaluating tests. If that is the case, then what is wrong with you (the parent) coming to school after hours to review the test? Why is that such a big deal? Why must the teacher be forced to hand over a copy?

It is not acceptable to confuse or otherwise mix up a demand for a copy of the test questions with concern for interpreting the test results. The two are mutually exclusive if the test is available for review.

By confused

August 26, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

The Blogger

I think Math Educator clearly articulated why looking at a test can be informative to students/parents (and teachers). To you, a test result seems to be just the score. To me, results are more about what my son understand (or doesn’t) AND how he is understanding it. I want to analyze his performance so that I can identify where he may be falling short so that I can provide appropriate support. But, to analyze his performance, I need to know the questions to which he is responding to. I’m not just asking for test questions. I could care less about questions themselves. I want to understand my son’s performance on each of those questions.

By simon

August 26, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

admin:

I think all public school teachers are “public servants” or “civil servants.” So, I guess you ARE in a “service” industry.

Speaking of public services, I wonder if there is any lawyer in this forum. I was wondering if (public school) teachers’ tests/exams are considered “public records” that are subject to the Open Records Laws. If so, then people can make a formal request to have the record released. I’m sure a specific student’s record can’t be released without consent, but any parent may be able to legally request the release of the test if s/he choses to do so.

By can we grade admin too?

August 26, 2008 6:38 PM | Link to this

I am not a “public servant”, I am a contract worker. My contract is with a county board of education, not with parents. Open records include student work or information about that student. I’m sure you can get the scantron sheet with your student’s answers on it. Keep in mind you can’t get info about other people’s kids. However, the tests are MINE…written by me (read that to say copyrighted!). If you want a peek, ask…demand a COPY and get nothing. And if the test is a county test or department test you will really get nothing. The fact that you do not control the school or the events within just because your child attends the school or you pay taxes or whatever other reason, seems to really be bothering you Simon. Schools are not designed to “cater to the whims” of people who have issues. Once again, if you do not think the school is serving your child, make the choice! And you may want to talk to a lawyer who actually practices law instead of asking on a forum, you may get some very shoddy advice.

By simon

August 26, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this

Perhaps before you sign your contract, you should realize that public school teachers are public servants as you are employed by the county board of education, which is a public agency. So, you signed the contract to be a public servant.

I really wonder if teachers can copyright their tests. You are required to produce the document to fulfill your job. I have never heard any government worker copyrighting the reports they write. We need someone who really understands the copyright laws to answer this one - I’m not sure, though, if there is anyone who really understand the copyright laws.

I don’t think I am bothered because I don’t control schools. I think schools should be as open as reasonably possible. It bothers me somewhat when anyone associated with schools try to hide something from the public.

By can we grade admin too?

August 26, 2008 11:02 PM | Link to this

That contract I signed, once again, does not entitle parents or really any member of the public to make demands to get access to things that are not pertinent to their child’s education. The test questions are not one of those things. Why don’t you ask the college board to release the questions on your kid’s SAT so you can see what s/he needs to study. After all you paid for the test, why shouldn’t you get to see what is on it?

Schools are “open” as much as law allows. Frankly, I too would like schools to be more “open”. Maybe public postings of names & disciplinary infractions would convince some people to start raising their kids to be productive adults. How’s that for “open”?

By jim d

August 27, 2008 7:21 AM | Link to this

can we grade admin too?,

Schools are “open” as much as law allows

NOT!!

Show me one, just one, that has their check ledger posted on line somewhere.

By jim d

August 27, 2008 7:51 AM | Link to this

Well, make that one here in Ga.

By can we grade admin too?

August 27, 2008 6:57 PM | Link to this

It would take a full time position to keep that webpage updated. Do you have any idea how many expenditures go through a school system? If you REALLY want that info, go to the county office, they have stacks of budget stuff for anyone who cares to see it.

By jim d

August 28, 2008 5:47 AM | Link to this

grade admin too,

Do you have any idea that this information is already on their computers? that a simple key stroke could keep this information up to date on a web page?