Get Schooled

By funnyBone

August 18, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

By jim d

August 18, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

While Ms. Downey has for years failed to impress me with much of her fatuousness, she has presented a question worth rumination.

By Do it

August 18, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this

Schools need to share teacher specific data with parents. Scores averaged over 3 years would give an overview of teacher performance without letting one cohort of students (good or bad) make too much difference. There are huge differences in teacher performance, but they are hidden from view. Good teachers should want this data made available. Weak teachers need to be identified and provided the support they need to improve or to find another career.

By DB

August 18, 2008 9:05 AM | Link to this

There’s several websites that grade college teachers — the “grades” are evaluations by students, and, as such, are somewhat suspect, because a student receiving an “A” will tend to think the teacher is good, while a lesser-performing student may rip the teacher for being “boring”, etc.

How DO you grade a teacher? What are the criteria? A teacher of a gifted class is going to have higher performance standards and results than a teacher who is dealing with less-motivated students. So much of learning falls on the student — a teacher can lead a horse to water, but s/he can’t make him drink. And then you have faulty decision loci, based on faulty evaluations such as those idiot standardized tests that end up having scores tossed out because they are testing things that weren’t on the curriculum.

Teaching is a partnership — and 50% of the partnership, the student, has to be invested in the process.

By Ernest

August 18, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

Kudo’s to Ms. Downey on a ‘thought provoking’ article! Unfortunately I believe it would be challenging to share the type of information necessary to fairly evaluate a teacher’s instructional abilities. Sure, you could provide their education background and historical information about how their students did on standardized tests. I can think of several measures that would complicate evaluation of testing information.

Where were the students, academically speaking, prior to coming into the class? Was the grouping of students random or select? What type of parental support was provided to the teacher? How did the students do the following year? These are but some of the additional measures one would need to help evaluate a teacher. In fairness, it will mostly come down to a parent’s ‘gut’ feel about a teacher and whether they would help their child continue to grow.

Like Maureen, I have twins also and it has been interesting noticing the differences with instructional styles they encounter along with their leaning styles. One twin does best with teachers that are more ‘nurturing’ with their instruction. The other does best with a more structured type of delivery. This simply reinforced that teachers can have ‘specialties’ in certain delivery styles and students react to them accordingly. What may be a great teacher for certain students may not do as well with others.

By parent

August 18, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

The teachers in my children’s schools seem to teach pretty much the same kind of classes every year. Some always teach gifted and some always teach the kids who are struggling to bring up the bottom, some seem to always teach the great middle.

As a parent, seeing the testing results of kids taught by these teachers, even averaged over 3 years, would not be very meaningful to me. I imagine the gifted are steadily above average and the struggling are steadily not.

Two of my children are very gifted and their test scores stay at 99% year after year no matter the teacher, the school system, the subject, or even the test—ITBS, CRCT or tests from other states. I doubt that they have had a 99 percentile teacher every single year. My youngest is an average student and his scores really do fluctuate from year to year based on the instruction that he gets or the quality of the curriculum.

Furthermore, my youngest child is in a grade at our local school that has year after year scored higher on the CRCT than all the other schools at the same grade level in our county. The class just a year ahead always had abysmal scores. The teachers were the same. That whole class had a reputation in elementary and middle school for being kind of lazy. So is that the teachers or the kids?

Anyone with children in school knows that classes take on personalities of their own independent of the teacher—I don’t see how we can totally fault teachers for the difficult classes or credit them when a class is really terrific.

HOWEVER, I do think administrators know whether teachers are effective. They don’t need test scores to know either. Though I don’t see how test scores can be the meaningful criterion for assessing teacher quality, I would like to see school systems enact other ways (they probably already exist) and then use those assessments to fire weak teachers.

I also think that it should be easier to fire teachers who have been on the job a long time—as easy as it is for beginning teachers. Many of the worst teachers I have seen were teachers who are just burnt out and sick of teaching. I think knowing they are almost impossible to fire allows them to let their attitudes fester. If they thought their jobs were always on the line (as in the corporate world) they would have to make adjustments that I just don’t see some making.

By jim d

August 18, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

“Civil Forum on the Presidency”

WARREN: Education. American ranks 19th in high school graduations, first in incarcerations. Everyone says, merit pay for the best teachers.

MCCAIN: Yes, yes, and find bad teachers another line of work. Choice and competition, homeschooling, charter schools. I want every American family to have the same choice that we had…to send our children to the school of our choice. This works. Thousands of people in Washington D.C. that are applying. New York City is reforming. We now have over 30 charter schools in New Orleans. It’s a simple principle, but it’s going to take dedicated men and women. It’s all based, and it’s proven that choice and competition. And its’ the civil rights issue of the 21st century. But what kind of opportunity is it if you send them to a failing school. That’s why we’ve got to give them the same opportunity and choice.

By Sherman Dorn

August 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Will newspapers issue report cards for columnists based on the civic literacy of their readers? Oh, wait… readers use more than one columnist, sort of the way that high school students might learn a bit of algebra from a chemistry teacher or trig from a physics teacher. But, nah, let’s not talk about the complexities of schools. Push for reductionist measures!

By Lee

August 18, 2008 11:17 AM | Link to this

“What information should schools share about teachers? How do you go about learning if your child’s teacher is effective?”

First of all, school systems do not care whether or not the parent thinks a particular teacher is ineffective. So, why would they share any information which would cause a bunch of parents to complain to the principal?

The better question is: “What is the principal doing to deal with the ineffective teacher?”

For most, the answer is not much or nothing at all. Unless the principal has a personal or political vendetta against the teacher (Doc Nease?), they will allow all but the most horrible to continue to ply their trade in the classroom.

It’s all a numbers game. For many principals, as long as they have a warm body in the front of the class and that warm body doesn’t generate too many complaints, the principal doesn’t care.

Performance management? What’s that?

Sad, but true.

By V for Vendetta

August 18, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

Sure. Let me pick my students and you can grade me all you want. Case closed.

By jim d

August 18, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

V,

“Case closed” when not only you are able to have a choice but when parents and students are as well.

By Old School

August 18, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

Come visit my classroom anytime. You don’t even have to give me a heads-up, just check in at the front office and they will direct you to my lab.

I have people in and out all the time and welcome them. Just be prepared for a class that operates a bit differently from the “normal classroom.”

By Dan

August 18, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

What separates good teachers from bad is the ability to teach the challenging students. The good students are easy to teach. Typical buck passing This is exactly why some sort of teacher report card is necessary. Although unfortunately if it is publicized then you will have parents suing schools for not putting their children in the “best” teachers classes. Which of course would be parents passing the buck.

By Dr. Craig Spinks

August 18, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

Criteria used in a teacher report card should include, but not be limited to: longitudinal studies of standardized achievement data for each teacher’s students; longitudinal analyses of individual student improvement as measured by the aforementioned standardized testing; longitudinal studies of student success in subsequent coursework which involved the same content area…for starters.

By truant teachers

August 18, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

I would love to see attendance data for teachers made public as well. My child’s teacher had an enormous number of sick days, personal days, come in late days, I’m attending a conference days, I’m observing other teachers days. If my child had missed class that often, I would be dealing with the truancy officer.

By Steve

August 18, 2008 12:52 PM | Link to this

Sounds like a good idea if lawyers are graded by defendents, dentists graded by number of cavities, parents by their kids grades, professors by students who drop their class, police by number of tickets, etc. All of this should be made public record. Why not? Should pertain to all and not just a select group.

By Michael

August 18, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

This is silly.

By Matt

August 18, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

Great point Steve. There is NO teacher’s union in GA. How many times does this need to be said…..

By Dan

August 18, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

Uh steve a little reality, first of all the comparisons are quite inane from a contextual perspective but we can run with it anyway to make it easy for you. lawyers are graded by defendents, if they fail they don’t get hired as much, dentists, if their patients contimue to have problems, many cavities or dental work falling out , (like students dropping out) they will pay with less referals etc. The cop reference is quite funny because most people complain of ticket quotas that really don’t exist. They are more to make sure some cops aren’t hanging out doing nothing. You are right though everyone should be held accountable, thats the whole point and the source of public discontent, because teachers on the whole have almost no accountability, and they are kicking and screaming to ensure they never do

By Suni

August 18, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

For those who keep saying there is no teacher’s union in GA - ever heard of MACE? And no, I don’t mean the pepper spray. Go to www.theteachersadvocate.com. After that, check out www.gae.org. AGE is the larger of the two. Both are teachers’ unions in that they advocate for teachers through lobbying. One is for profit, one is not.

By Suni

August 18, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

I meant “GAE” is the larger of the two…not AGE…

By Reader

August 18, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

Why is the funding crisis in Georgia not making it to this blog?

text to be linked

By Old School

August 18, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

Suni, Georgia is a right to work state. We do not have teachers’ unions but professional organizations. They may advocate for teachers through lobbying but that doesn’t make them unions. My PAGE dues are not tied to my salary as are those of other organizations. It is also my CHOICE to belong to a teachers’ organization. If I only wanted the liability insurance, I could find other sources.

I read the Downey article and got the impression that she is not so much interested in degrees or experience but in interpersonal skills and teaching methods. Quite frankly, the only way Ms. Downey will be able to determine that is through observation. It would likely take several visits to get a true understanding of the teacher’s strengths and weaknesses. If it is only information about degrees, qualifications, personal background, or the like, many school websites may have that for most of the teachers. Ours does IF we teachers include it.

Degrees and pedigrees do not a teacher make. I teach in a multi-grade/multi-ability/multi-interest/multi-skill lab. Every day is a huge challenge and I don’t reach everyone (some don’t give a fig about becoming a drafter or engineer…imagine that!). Does that make me a better teacher than the AP History or Calc teachers? Nope. I’m really good at what I do and I’m comfortable enough to welcome you in to watch and participate. C’mon down!

By Tater

August 18, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

jim d

Amen on your 11:32am post…

By simon

August 18, 2008 4:08 PM | Link to this

If parents are really interested in the quality of their teachers, they should visit the classrooms - often. What schools (and teachers) should do is to make it possible for any parent to come observe any teacher at any time. What matters is how they teach.

By jim d

August 18, 2008 4:14 PM | Link to this

Yeah Tater,

I felt like saying what we hear on these blogs so often. “you already have a choice”. I don’t know why that wouldn’t apply to teachers as it apparently does to parents. Got any ideas?

By jim d

August 18, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

Simon,

I agree but only if a parent was able to watch unobserved. That being said, I’m not sure why we don’t already have web cams in every class-room in the country. the technology certainly exists to allow parents to watch without being a disruption. This would also enable many parents to observe their little angels in action. (something I would think teachers would appreciate)

By Tater

August 18, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

jim d

I’m sure that you know my opinion on your 4:14 post.

I do like the idea of the webcams… I see this as a tremendous benefit to the teachers and parents..

By Lee

August 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

RE: Visiting a classroom.

I know what kind of driver my teenager is when I am in the car with her. Always obeys the speed limit, uses the blinkers, doesn’t follow too closely, etc, etc. What I want to know is what kind of driver she is the other 99.9% of the time.

I agree with Jim D, I don’t understand why webcams are not an option either. Technology exists to limit the viewers to only parents and other approved parties.

My guess is that schools don’t want parents to know what is going on in the school. Drop your kid off in the morning, sell the wrapping paper, show up for one of the ‘feel good’ awards programs, and TRUST the government to educate your child.

If you do so, remember this:

“Government is inherently incompetent, and no matter what task it is assigned, it will do that task in the most expensive and inefficient way possible.” [Charlie Reese]

GOVERNMENT schools are no different.

By SallyB

August 18, 2008 5:08 PM | Link to this

Lee and jimd Quite a few private schools do have webcams but mostly in lower grades. It is fascinating to watch and has captivated me for long periods of time.

By Tater

August 18, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

Lee

A little off topic….but… Let’s look at the quality of oversight on the Fulton County 911 operator who was reprimanded for incompetence year after year. Why was she still employed? Simply because government workers get away with gross incompetence and still get a paycheck… Amazing..

No different in government schools. Although the majority of teachers are excellent, there are some that need to go and the powers at be refuse to fire them in fear of some kind of repercussion. Simply look no farther than Gina Conteh.

Government schools will never work…

By SallyB

August 18, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

Webcams in every classroom is a terrific idea…with tape rolling allt he time so it can be replayed. Then parents could see not only the teachers , but just how their children behave in the classroom. HOWEVER, there is not likely to be funding for webcams, even if it could be agreed to by all parties. Still, I would welcome it.

By Tater

August 18, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this

SallyB

Webcams can be purchased for less than $100.00. The data lines are already there so it shouldn’t be a tremendous problem.

The smart child care businesses have already been doing this for years.

By 30 year teacher

August 18, 2008 5:41 PM | Link to this

Web cams in the classroom are not always a good idea. When I was working on national teacher certification I had to have written permission from the parent of each student to tape my class, required as part of the certification. had several parents who refused to give it and as a result was limited in the number of classes I could use to fulfill this requirement. These parents felt it infringed on their students’ privacy. So you see, no easy answers there for observing a classroom.

By catlady

August 18, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

While the info would be great, here is why it would not work on my level at my school: 1) we need a valid pre and post test, and valid student efforts on same. Comparing last year’s CRCT to this year’s won’t work; lots of difference in test difficulty from, say, second to third. Likewise, getting students to give enough of a rip to do their best on pre and post won’t happen unless (if ever) there is some fall-out for not doing your best 2) teachers have no control over who is in their room. I push into a room that has 6 diagnosed sped kids, and 3 others at least who show sp ed attributes. This teacher will not see a year’s worth of progress, because these kids learn more slowly than others. This is how they got into sp ed: by being years behind in their learning and in their lives. 3) is the class homogeneous or heterogeneous? 4) whose class is your kid in for the subject? It is unlikely to be the HR teacher, even in the lower grades. They “change classes” too. 5) unless you use a sophisticated way of measuring value added (which, since we cannot construct CRCts accurately would be waayy over the heads of the DOE folks) you will miss some good stuff. Example: last year I pushed into a fifth grade class made up of kids who were at least 2 years behind in math skills. They averaged gaining nearly two years of skills but they finished the year with fifth grade (instead of beginning sixth grade) math skills. Their teacher did a wonderful job but looking at a report on him, it might look like, hey, his kids are a year behind in math! However, down the hall a teacher had kids most of whom were in the gifted class. They made much less than 2 years’ progress, but that teacher, based on test scores, would look like a freaking genius. 6) in our school, the year to year assignments are rotated so no one “suffers” the top or bottom group year after year, so the 3 year comparisons would be scrambled.

When you solve these problems, then there will be massive resistance to publishing the info. But until you solve the problems, the info won’t mean a hill o’ beans.

By GT

August 18, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

When do we grade parents? There is always somebody responsible besides the mass population in these questions. Start with the parents and the teachers will get better. We live in a society that loves to blame a minority for its problems and gets very aggressive if there is a disagreement. We are even better at “that is their job not mine” as the grass grows up above the house. Stop blaming people and go do something about it. It is not that hard to read a text book and teach your child math or English, but it is more fun and less work to blame someone else. I keep waiting for one of these countries we invade to raise up and do something for themselves but no, it is easier letting the United States do it and they then have someone to complain about. We wanted to blame one man for the troubles in Iraq, but after we hung this trouble maker he left but the trouble stayed. Be responsible for your own problems and life for all of us will be much better.

By catlady

August 18, 2008 6:08 PM | Link to this

There is no way that webcams will be okayed. Heck, we have kids whose parents don’t want them in the yearbook or in ANY kind of photo because they think the police will use it to identify their kid or they think someone will snatch them. You think they’d okay any (perhaps) pervert being able to sit in their jammies at home and watch the children?? And think, if you distrust the teacher, how much more do you distrust your fellow parents who might have evil intentions watching your child?

By SallyB

August 18, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this

catlady, you make good points about webcams, and parental permission…. but it does work in private schools and some daycare centers. At my [public] school there were some parents who wouldn’t allow their children to take standardized tests. Now this was before CRCT, back when we did the ITBS and California Achievement Tests, etc. Haven’t experiecnced it with CRCT….but.. Did the admiistration buck, those parents? NONONONONO! The students sat in the library for a few days.

By simon

August 18, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this

jim d

I don’t understand why parents must be unobserved? If teachers can teach wonderfully when they know they are observed, then we know at least that they can teach well. Some teachers can’t even prepare good lessons even if they try. Sure, they think their lessons are good, but if you understand the content well, you can tell when a lesson is good or just a bunch of non-senses.

I also say webcam probably won’t work with privacy concerns and other issues. However, it will be nice if all new schools are built with windows in the hallways so that people who are walking down the hallways can get glimpse into the classroom. Make classrooms much more open to others.

By Tony

August 18, 2008 7:11 PM | Link to this

I think the responses on today’s topic are absolutely hilarious. Just a few weeks ago I posted a link to an article summarizing recent research into what parents really look for in a teacher. It varied by social class: middle school parents want teachers who make their child happy. Poorer families want teachers who push academic achievement.

The posting of teachers’ results would not reveal valid information because the students are not grouped in a completely random way. Some people get preferential assignments and this affects the outcome of results. I also know from experience that the most complaints from parents come because of teachers who push academics. article

By Maureen_Is_A_Shill

August 18, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

Typical of Maureen that her first column is yet another attempt to blame teachers, when Maureen won’t address the teaching conditions they operate under.

Tell us Maureen, what was the main impediment to the teacher’s “effectiveness” at Southside High; her innate ability, or the fact that she was brutally assaulted?

And what did Maureen say about the circumstances that led a teacher to being brutally assaulted? Absolutely nothing.

What did Maureen say about the allegations that it took ten full minutes for administration to come to the teacher’s aid? Absolutely nothing.

What did Maureen say about allegations of APS’s violation of tribunal law when it came time to address the brutal assault of this teacher? Absolutely nothing.

You see, when it comes to taking a real stand on what’s wrong with education, Maureen wets the bed, because she’s in bed with the corporate interests who want to create the facade that discipline is not a problem in APS, rather than report on the assaults, the subsequent violations of teachers’ rights to tribunal, and the atmosphere of retaliation for those who speak out. That’s why Maureen seeks to always blame teachers, because then she, like the school systems she shills for, doesn’t have to address teaching conditions.

If Maureen is not a shill for APS how else to explain her complete, total, silence when APS was cited for falsifying discipline data for forty schools?

And what did APS Asst. Supt. Kathy Augustine say in this very paper? “Perhaps our reforms are working so well, there are no discipline problems to report.”

Perhaps there’s no pollution in Beijing either, right Maureen? The fact is that if any teacher said something so preposterous as there were zero discipline incidents in forty inner city schools because “our reforms are working so well, there are no discipline problems to report” Maureen would have been on that teacher like a pit bull on a ham sandwich.

But when APS central office issues the statement what does Maureen do? You guessed it; absolutely nothing. I guess if the editorial board doesn’t comment on the story, it didn’t really happen right Maureen?

And when comments like that are made Maureen, and you do nothing you are in essence giving your, and the AJC’s, tacit approval to the teaching conditions that allow teachers to be disrespected, abused, and yes brutally assaulted.

It’s called credibility Maureen, and your silence in the face of this ongoing abuse of teachers means you have none. Maybe that’s why you’re afraid to come on the blogs and defend your lack of words and your actions.

Ironically, the one group who hasn’t backed down on telling the truth about discipline is the Metro Association of Classroom Educators, a group you never fail to bash. But, tellingly when it comes time to put your money where your mouth is, once again you wet the bed; for repeatedly when Dr. John Trotter, the head of MACE offered to meet you, anywhere, anytime, anyplace to engage in a formal debate on the real issues in education, you’ve backed down each and every time and refused to debate him.

Gee Maureen, if the AJC is going to position you as the education expert on the editorial board, you would think you would relish the opportunity for a formal debate if you think MACE and Dr. Trotter is so wrong about teaching conditions and discipline in Georgia.

The fact that you have steadfastly refused shows that you know the role lack of support for discipline plays in wrecking havoc on the schools, on teaching conditions, on teachers themselves, and last but not least on students having to try to learn in those environments.

But, not unlike a Chinese Communist Party official, you won’t talk about it, because it goes against the party line. Which is why you won’t engage in debate, and why you won’t come on this blog to address the issues raised about your credibility.

The AJC can call you an “editor” all they want, and position you as their education voice as well, but it’s not your title that defines you Maureen, it’s your words and actions.

And those words and actions define you with one word: Shill.

After all, if they don’t report it, there is no pollution in Beijing, right Maureen?

By Food for thought

August 18, 2008 7:26 PM | Link to this

simon - clearly you don’t remember being a student, distracted by whoever might be walking by the window door. All windows to the classroom would provide is a window to whoever is in the hall, and provide the class clowns an outlet for their shenanigans.

If privacy weren’t an issue, I think webcams would be great.

By John

August 18, 2008 7:38 PM | Link to this

Lets grade the parents!!! Oh I am an 18 year experienced teacher !!1

By faye

August 18, 2008 7:45 PM | Link to this

Maureen said My system used to wait until the day before school resumed to post class lists and teacher assignments, probably to fend off dissatisfied parents lobbying for changes.

Oh, honey, I doubt it. If your children’s school is anything like mine, they don’t even have that info for the teachers until close to Day 1.

The reasons are myriad - transiency, waiting on CRCT test results, teacher allotments, new teacher hiring, etc. It’s not so parent-centered or Machiavellian as you might think.

All things being equal, most teachers wouldn’t mind more accountablility - many like to be able to show how good they are. But a report card based on CRCT scores is extremely unfair and misleading. All of you out there crowing for more accountability, would you want more testing days in order to achieve it? (…and as I recall, it was the politicians’ promises of accountability that got us in this NCLB mess in the first place).

By simons

August 18, 2008 8:04 PM | Link to this

Food for thought

Clearly you don’t know where I grew up. I attended schools where there were windows in the hallways - as well as toward outside overlooking the play ground. I am amazed at those who just don’t give any credit to kids. I suppose schools are just like our society - we make up rules to control criminals, who will break those rules anyway, and the rest of us have to deal with all those hassles.

As far as kids getting distracted, all those decoration in classrooms are much worse, I believe.

By thomas

August 18, 2008 8:14 PM | Link to this

Maureen Downey is a shrill. That column was garbage. “Grade the teachers” she says. The only people who are that interested in what teacher their child has are the spoiled brat soccer moms in the suburbs who want to micromanage their kids’ lives. They want to be able to pick teachers who will coddle their child, give away A’s, and let them run their classrooms.

Reality is that even releasing test scores amounts to next to nothing. It will just give some pests something else to complain/nitpick about.

I am TOTALLY AND EMPHATICALLY against incompetent teachers. But just as someone as already stated, most incompetent teachers don’t stay anywhere long, except the barrio or the ghetto. The test score argument doesn’t hold water. By the time a clown has done his or her damage and the test scores are released, the school year is over and this duffus is moving on. I have seen this scenario over and over. A teacher will goof off and BS from November to February, start looking for a job, get one in March, and then REALLY go on vacation in April (they only go through the motions for the CRCT- they don’t want to totally p** everybody off) and May.

By luvs2teach

August 18, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

Come up with a fair way to grade me and I’ll be the first to post it.

My report card - warts and all:

My last year at my old school (75% free and reduced lunch, majority of students reading below grade level, high transiency) I had an average of 66% passing on the 8th grade science CRCT - pretty close to what the other teachers (outside of gifted) had.

Move forward one year, and move to a new school - this school about 50% FRL, transient, but less so, better SES - now my students average 77% on the CRCT - did I improve that much as a teacher? I don’t think so, as my scores are right around where the other teachers at my school were - except for gifted.

Fast forward another year - now I have one gifted class - my scores jump to 86% passing, with the bulk of my gifted kids exceeding standards - remove them, and I’m back at 77% - right in line with everyone else.

Finally, jump to last year - new curriculum for us - physical science. New test, too. Now I have an ESOL class and 2 special ed classes (because I’m so good with them I was told)as well as one gifted class…my scores were 60% - my lowest ever. Again, right in line with the other teachers.

Did I all of a sudden turn into a bad teacher? I’ll admit, teaching the new science curriculum was challenging, not because I didn’t know it or understand it, but because I didn’t know how to teach it as effectively as Earth science. Top that off with the kids telling me that they knew the material, but couldn’t decipher the questions - then it becomes a question of just what that test was assessing - science knowledge or reading ability.

I’m a bit of a data junkie, and the bulk of my kids that failed the science CRCT either moved at least once during the school year, were absent a lot, or had other issues (pregnancy, abuse & removal, death of a sibling, etc). How is that on me?

Come up with a fair way to assess me, and I’ll gladly post it - aren’t teachers constantly being asked to imporve their assessments for the kids?

By V for Vendetta

August 18, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this

Tony and John bring up good points. I have nothing to hide, but I nevertheless would appear to be ace teacher of the world if I had all Gifted classes. However, if I have all CP classes, they evidence would show lower test scores, more discipline problems, etc.

For example:

Out of three college prep freshmen classes I had a few years ago, HALF of my failures came from one particular class. This class had more discipline problems on ONE DAY than the other two had all year. Would it be fair to say that I was a bad teacher because I had a horrible class? Would it be fair to look at those kids’ test scores and say I was unsuccessful? Hardly.

Oh, and cameras in classrooms? Are you all out of your minds? What do I need cameras for in my classroom? How about cameras in all of your offices or cubicles that are broadcast 24/7 into your bosses’ offices? How’s that sound? I’m sure none of you have anything to hide, right? So why does it bother you so much?

By Food for thought

August 18, 2008 8:26 PM | Link to this

simon - of course I don’t know where you grew up. Maybe you went to one of those touchy-feely pod schools of the 70s that were a HUGE MISTAKE. I don’t know and I don’t care, really. My point that windows would be distracting is still a valid one - it doesn’t matter if they weren’t distracting to you.

I liked to look out the window. I preferred looking out the window to paying attention to the teacher. Windows outside are a nice one-way distraction (kids don’t generally try to look in). Windows in the hallway are a two-way distraction - kids DO look in. Wave to their friends. Make faces. Just becuase you didn’t, doesn’t mean that there aren’t kids that do.

Too many posters are a distraction, too - but they don’t wave at the kids and make faces.

By can we grade admin too?

August 18, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this

Let’s grade everyone!!! Let the parents, students and teachers grade administrators. Teachers grade parents and administrators…and so on. Grading teachers on the performance of students on a standardized test is not going to give a full picture. And lets be honest…that information becoming public will tempt some teachers to cheat (I’m a teacher and I have seen teachers cheat for food rewards for their classes for unit test scores that are posted in the hallway!!!!) I really wish there were teacher’s unions in this state, then I wouldn’t be responsible for doing “advisement” (counselor’s job), collecting and calling parents to track enrollment forms (registrar’s job), dealing with attendance paperwork for truant students (attendance clerk’s job), guarding the hallway/cafeteria during my planning period (hire security or something). I was hired to TEACH…how about letting me do that and then you can grade me!

By Sarah

August 18, 2008 8:50 PM | Link to this

Getting rid of bad teachers is a necessity but how do we determine who those bad ones are? Test scores prove nothing. Very smart children hate testing and will complete a portion of the CRCT in 10 minutes by making patterns of their bubbles. I’ve watched many of them do it but I can’t say anything to them. That is interfering with the test. How can those scores prove anything? They certainly can’t tell the effectiveness of a teacher. Schools that are low performing have students that are low performing. I was in a school like that for several years in Cobb county and now am in another one in another county. Teachers can only do so much with children that come to us after years of sitting in front of a television or computer while mom, dad, and who knows who else, work or whatever it is these people do who don’t work do. We can’t work miracles. This year we have one teacher who is considered wonderful. She gives worksheets all day long to first graders. Her students always do well on the CRCT because they are good kids who have had parents spend time with them and take an interest in them. Good students will always do well and poor students will do poorly too. Teachers always get the blame for not doing a good job. But more than half of our jobs are disciplining and counseling. Kids don’t just come in and sit down ready to learn. I wonder when we are going to stop making excuses for parents who aren’t doing their jobs. Everyone can place the blame on someone else but none of us really sit down and consider how our students come to teachers. Cameras in the classroom would only do so much because even if a child is observed in the act of misbehaving there is still an excuse for them. They were “provoked” to behave that way. Frankly I think that if parents don’t want to do their jobs then get out of the way. Send your child to school and shut up. Let us do our jobs. I’m an excellent teacher but I can’t tell you the many ways I am held back because of parents and even administrators making excuses for children. At some point we have to make them responsible for their own behavior and learning. We are ruining our children by letting them think that the world revolves around them and that someone will always bail them out of their messes. Punishing teachers just shows the children that they don’t ever have to be responsible for their learning.

By Teacher

August 18, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

As a teacher, if you would like to grade me by my students’ test scores, I will decline to continue teaching the more challenging students, and you can forget team teaching. I’ll take regular education and accelerated kids. I can do a lot with the remedial students, but the reality is that as a class, they will never catch up to the others.

By SallyB

August 18, 2008 9:03 PM | Link to this

can we grade admin too? Let me say once again ,,,,States that have strong teachers’ unions consistently have better test scores than states who do not….. and the education provided in thoses states is consistently ranked higher [Ga. is consistentlt 49th and 50th] than states who do not.

By just a teacher

August 18, 2008 9:26 PM | Link to this

Picture it: Still at school at 9pm, after a long day and several jams in the copier, I log onto the local paper’s education blog to read about the state of my profession.

And all I can say is, really? I mean, seriously? For Maureen, does having a new column mean you just get to be openly snide and condescending toward teachers? And for some clearly dull posters, unions? Seriously? How many civics lessons must be administered on this blog?

And then the anti-teacherism. The painful, worrisome anti-teacherism. “Hey! I’m unhappy with my lot in life, and I feel vaguely dissatisfied with the government and its one remaining social institution. Since that’s too big and scary to deal with, I’ll blame teachers! Yeah! That’ll be easy! There’s always a bad teacher story to corroborate and justify my rudeness! And I can feel superior to any teacher who stands up for the profession because what kind of idiot would choose that job anyway? Teacher-bashing GAME ON!” To be so hated by so many, I really should be paid more.

But I see some hope for redemption. Praises and thanks to the cogent and thoughtful. I wish there were more of you. Perhaps cogent and thoughtful people simply tend to avoid blogs. They certainly aren’t likely to get a column for the AJC.

By catlady

August 18, 2008 9:27 PM | Link to this

SallyB—Parents at private schools and daycare centers WANT the schools to accept their kids, so they HAVE to sign up. Public schools have NO SUCH ability to compel much of anything, much less something that might “expose” their child. We HAVE to teach the children. Riding the bus is a privilege, and so the school system can compel cameras on the bus.

The difference is the ability to compel or not provide the service.

By AlreadySheared

August 18, 2008 10:12 PM | Link to this

Many educators seem to have real anxiety about any sort of grade/evaluation.

Really, it shouldn’t be that hard:

1) Determine which kids in a teacher’s class had CRCT scores in his/her subject area last year.

2) Compute the percentage of the teacher’s students who either met or exceeded expectations last year.

3) For the students in steps 1&2 with CRCT scores this year, compute the percent who either met or exceeded with the teacher in question.

4) #3 - #2 = “Percent Improvement” for that teacher. Zero might be a perfectly reasonable score for teachers in schools where nearly everyone is passing.

5) Compute the average “Percent Improvement” for all similar teachers in a school system (same grade/subject).

6) If a teacher’s “Percent Improvement” is well above his/her peers’ average, you have a pretty strong teacher; if it’s significantly lower, you have someone who needs either help, or a new profession.

7) If 1 year’s data is not sufficient, take an average over 2 or 3 years - you should pretty quickly end up with a statistically significant body of data.

Honestly, if a teacher produces noticably poor results year after year, wouldn’t you want to figure that out and do something about it?

By simon

August 18, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this

*Food for thought *

Were my schools all touchy-feely schools? I don’t know. We all did fine. By the way, virtually all schools in Japan are like that, too. Their kids seem to do pretty well, don’t they? Perhaps you are using yourself - and your classmates, as the standards, but we don’t have to lower the standards for all kids.

By can we grade admin too?

August 18, 2008 10:33 PM | Link to this

SallyB…you really didn’t have to say anything once again, except for some of those who still think GA has a “real” teacher’s union…I am well aware of the progress of states with teacher’s unions (I taught in one for awhile before moving to GA).

AlreadySheared; how do you figure test scores = good teacher? Many factors affect how a student performs on tests. All teachers are not treated equally. In some schools new/inexperienced teachers are given honors level course and veterans are given the “challenging” students/courses because those teachers are “better prepared”. It is also difficult to get new teachers in the critical needs area I teach in, so the carrot on the stick is the upper level courses. Much to the expense of p** off the veterans. In addition, not all courses have tests; no EOCT for many electives and some upper level core courses (physics, calc, etc…) so how would you “grade” those teachers?

By TheBlogger

August 18, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this

As a teacher that has always had students that made way above average (school, school system, and State) on all of those standardized tests……

I am very much against those types of “grades” for teachers? Why? I fully realized that my results are more due to things such as the particular mix of students in my class (as opposed to other teachers in my school), and also of the socio-economic status of my school than anything.

If I were to transfer to a “bad” or “failing” school, do I think that my students there were suddenly perform above average? Heck no!

Everyone needs to realize that teachers are a piece of the puzzle and not the “end all and be all”. Successful students have many other things going for them than just good teachers.

All of that said, I do believe that there are poor quality teachers that should be weeded out of the profession. However, I want to point out that you can say that about all professions, can’t you? And, every person in every school knows who the poor quality teachers are - it isn’t a secret that needs any sort of “report card.” Any type of “report card” would be another waste of money and time.

By can we grade admin too?

August 18, 2008 10:42 PM | Link to this

Simon is obviously not a teacher and would probably be VERY amazed at some of the “stupid human tricks” kids come up with on a daily basis. Maybe a week as a volunteer at a local school will help enlighten Simon. And comparing American schools to Japanese schools, classic! I sure wish we had a suicide rate as high as Japan, now those kids a willing to die for a good grade. Most american kids just want a grade handed to them without learning anything and are willing to lie or cheat to get it. Must have learned that from somewhere…hmmm?!!?

By luvs2teach

August 18, 2008 11:55 PM | Link to this

Already sheared - your plan might be ok for a subject where skills build upon each other year after year like reading or math. however, i teach 8th grade science, Physical science, a completely different subject than 7th grade science, which is life science - biology.

My kids are learning about forces and motion and chemistry - 7th graders are learning about seeds and biomes. Truly apples and oranges.

This doesn’t even take into account the validity of the CRCT - something that has come into the equation on more than one occasion.

You would need to test at the beginning of the year and at the end of the year - with a valid testing instrument. You would have to agree to look at growth, not the final numbers - if I can get my kids from a GE of 4.6 to a GE of 6.2 in one 8th grade year, that has to be looked at as better than someone who gets them from a GE of 8.2 to 9.0 - the other kids are on grade level, but they haven’t experienced as much growth. finally, you would need to be able to eliminate factors beyond the teachers control such as absenteeism.

By jim d

August 19, 2008 5:33 AM | Link to this

V,

Let me point out that in business conducting covert surveillance is no longer taboo and has become a widely accepted practice in industry.

As for the aspect of placing cameras in class rooms and parents objecting? Well now, there’s this little law that makes it all possible regardless of any objections to rights to privacy. Can we all say “homeland security?” This law enables government to do just about whatever they wish and privacy issues be damned.

Truth be known we are generally being recorded just about anytime we go out in public in this day and time. In the malls, in parking lots, driving down the highway, even while eating dinner in a resturant or walking out into your back yard.

By jim d

August 19, 2008 6:43 AM | Link to this

the real reasons web cams will never be allowed in a classroom.

a)NCLB b)AYP

Think about it. Adminstrators would no longer be able to ignore teachers complaints about unruly students. They would be required to act on issues they have absolutely no desire to because of AYP.

And NCLB requires that teachers be Highly Qualified. OMG, cameras might actually document some of these HQ teachers ineptness.

By ron

August 19, 2008 7:07 AM | Link to this

The AJC is cutting staff ,and if I remember my history correctly the buzz words going around will be,”do more with less “,”work smarter,not harder”.Maureen was given the education column not because she knows what she’s doing,but because she happened to be there when the assignment was handed out.When you have less people and choose to cover all bases, sometimes the incompetent surface in the most unlikely places.

By Thoughts

August 19, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezrakleinarchive?month=08&year=2008&basename=bothand

By Lee

August 19, 2008 7:21 PM | Link to this

The funny thing is….

… all you teachers ARE being evaluated.

In the grocery store. In church. At family get-togethers. Teachers get talked about.

That’s right, and a lot of it ain’t pretty. We already have a pretty good idea which teachers aren’t worth a crap.

The real question is - why aren’t the Principals doing anything about it??????

By luvs2teach

August 19, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this

And Lee, don’t forget sites like “Rate My Teacher.Com” - we are well aware that we are being evaluated informally. My favorite is when someone comes up to me in the grocery store and tells me that they hope I have their child the following year. That’s always nice to hear.

I had a bunch of very disappointed parents this year because I am no longer teaching gifted classes - the kids were disappointed, too.

By cricket

August 19, 2008 9:04 PM | Link to this

My principal wouldn’t be able to write a coherent sentence if his life depended on it. If his subjects and verbs ever agreed I would check to see if hell had frozen over. Most teachers in this state are far superior intellectually than the principals they are evaluated by. Now, that is not said in an effort to imply that the bulk of the teachers out there are outstanding in intellectual pursuits. The point is….. well, you probably get the point.

By collegeteacher

August 19, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this

All of these issues are meaningless unless we teach both our children and parents that teachers should be respected and valued. I teach college students, and I spend much of my time with issues of social courtesy and manners. It is a nice break when I can actually spend some time with the subject matter. I decided to teach because I thought it was a very important thing to do. However, after about fifteen years of teaching, I now understand why so many of my own teachers seemed frustrated and bitter. As long as we treat education as a business and encourage a basic consumer mentality, we will continue to do a disservice to our students and teachers.

By Cassie

August 19, 2008 11:52 PM | Link to this

First- through third-year teachers are evaluated by administrators each year in most school districts nationwide. While these evaluations are confidential, any parent can and should discuss teachers’ abilities with the principal, especially if there are concerns. However, a teacher report card, if there ever is such a thing, should NOT be based on the standardized test students take once a year. A week-long testing session is a very poor representation of a teacher’s ability and effectiveness. Most parents are all too happy to complain about teachers when the test scores come out, but very rarely do I see one of those same parents in my classroom. In fact, most of them don’t even mention their concerns to me — instead, they write letters to the editor or send nasty e-mails to the school administration. If parents truly want to know how a teacher is performing, TALK to that teacher. OBSERVE that teacher. Most of all, talk to your child. He or she has more influence on his/her own education than most parents think. Do not complain about a teacher if you let your child be disrespectful and disruptive or if you don’t encourage, help, and check in on your child at home.

By Leia

August 20, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

Lee - you’re right. We know we’re being watched and rated. But, that’s okay. We can tell which parents aren’t worth a crap by how undisciplined your children are.

By simon

August 20, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

collegeteacher

I guess we have to keep in mind the cliche about “respect must be earned.” Just look at many of the teachers who post here - how can you respect those whining teachers who blame everything on someone else?

By can we grade the admin too?

August 20, 2008 7:28 PM | Link to this

Hey Simon, here’s your answer…the same way teachers are expected to show respect to the so called “parents” who can’t take the time out of their day to raise their own children properly. This includes those that “work” for a living and can’t be bothered to show up for ANYTHING at school. Or who teach their children that it is ok to be a lazy jerk who also “can’t” do their homework, do not “know how to study for a test” and think it is appropiate to cast blame on the teachers. And one more for good measure, the little darlings who are just a few years away from felony charges but the parents seem to think their little babies do no wrong, can’t wait for those morons to end up in front of a judge!

By simon

August 20, 2008 10:38 PM | Link to this

I rest my case - what more evidence do we need to show that there are plenty of teachers out there who just don’t deserve our respects. How sad…

By Old School

August 21, 2008 6:11 AM | Link to this

Ah, simon! There are so many more of us who do NOT whine. We’re the ones who go quietly along, setting an example of high standards with our own behaviors and demanding excellence from our students. To both ends we work hard and seek to convey those lessons in the best way we can. Could this possibly be due to putting the education of the children first? For me it is. I don’t require lots of money/stuff to make my life happy and fulfilling. I’ve gotten that from my family and friends and I feel like the richest person on earth. But I do have my challenges:

Just yesterday I got a phone call from a guardian grandparent whose student wanted out of my class because “the room is too bright.” The deadline for class changes is long over but both student and guardian were insistent. I turned out half the lights and made an extra effort to be patient, attentive and encouraging to that student and the rest of the class as well. When asked if his guardian could come in and do the drawings for himself to see how hard they are, I encouraged it. We’ll see.

I have 34 years under my belt and am teaching the children and grandchildren of many former students. I find myself being stopped in the grocery and department stores by parents seeking reassurance that I will sign another contract for another year because they want their child to take MY class (an elective no less!).

I am proud of the accomplishments so many of my students achieve that reflect directly on the skills I was able to teach them. I went into this profession with full knowledge of the salary, working conditions, challenges, heartbreaks, and the amazing variety of people I would meet along the way.

I do NOT whine. I think it far more productive to roll up my own sleeves and work to make positive change. Sitting back, pointing my finger at the problems…even resting on my laurels doesn’t accomplish very much. Everyday is a brand new chance for me and my students. I try to take advantage of that and it has worked very well for me. I also try to pass along what works for me to every new teacher I am asked to mentor. As a consequence, my department has almost no turnover from year to year except for retirements.

We are even being recognized by the state for our exemplary writing program (not bad for a bunch of shop teachers!)

By TeeDubs

August 21, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

Why not grade parents before kids get into kindergarten. Children should be taken away if the parent does not get the child to at least an average achievement level. Of course average would shift due to the bell curve and you would always be chasing an impossible goal. I’ve seen that doctor’s should be graded by how many of their patients die. Would that be fair to compare a trauma doctor to a dermatologist? Can you compare a teacher who teaches advanced students from stable homes to those who teach children with ADHD, PTSD, BD and come from broken homes? Incompetent teachers should be removed just like in any other occupation, but it’s just not that simple.

By simon

August 21, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this

Old School

Of course there are many dedicated teachers out there, and I know a number of them personally. However, we are talking about the respects teachers get as a whole - as a profession, although some might argue that teachers are not professionals. As you know, it doesn’t take much to ruin your (group’s) reputation. It takes only a vocal minority - which appears to be very well represented in this forum. Perhaps the problem is that those who are dedicated focus too much on their own teaching and their own students. One sign of a profession is that they can really “police” themselves. People like you should be much more vocal about those whining teachers and tell them to “shut up and do your job,” and “quit blaming others and focus on what you are trained to do - that is to educate the children who are in their classrooms irregardless of their backgrounds.”

By M

August 21, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this

Well, this is all great - when I have had issues related to be by teachers I have asked to be allowed to sit in the classroom and watch - and have NEVER been allowed. Note that I am considered very quiet and not talkataive. When I did, those times, discuss with other parents I found out that their children were reporting similar issues and they appeared to be teacher-driven rather than focused on one student. I recall my 3rd grade teacher was on amphetamines for weight loss - she was Dr Jeckyll/Mr Hyde to us and she tried to fail me - I was saved by my standardized test scores. Weight loss techniques have changed for the better but I don’t think human nature has and I think there are still some attractions in being a teacher for some abberant personalities. Frankly, if I could have been allowed to audit my kids classes I think their outcomes would have been better. Studies have shown that workers do better when they know they’re being watched and I’m sure that applies to teachers as well. Human evealuation rather than standardized test scores is the way to go - and somehow, I think the evaluators should NOT be a part of the local school board - don’t know why, I just have that feeling.

By Cassie

August 21, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

Are there bad teachers out there? Yes, of course. But Simon, you’ll have to excuse me for being slightly offended at being called “whiny” for not wanting ALL the responsibility for poor standardized test scores to be placed on my shoulders. Of course I have responsibility for those scores; it is my job to teach kids well. When I get poor test scores back, I spend tons of time trying to figure out how to improve my teaching. HOWEVER, I see my English students for 50 minutes per day. During those 50 minutes per day, I have to get them to master grammar, parts of speech, sentence structure, paragraph structure, thesis statements, introductions, conclusions, transitions, vocab, work parts, comprehension, and analyzation of texts, to name a few things. In addition, some of my 10th-graders are so behind that I am still teaching them phonics. All of this has to be mastered by the time our state tests are issued in March. Then, since so many parents aren’t teaching kids at home, we also have to teach them manners, proper behavior, and how to interact properly with others. My school has even implemented a rule that all classroom teachers MUST take class time to teach these things. Subtract all the time we spend doing fire drills, lockdown drills, tornado drills, district standardized tests, reading level tests, and going to assemblies. Then, I lose most of my afternoon students at least once a week for athletic events. All of this I usually deal with without complaining and work my tail off to effectively teach these kids, but you’ll have to excuse me for “whining” when a parent — or anyone else — who never sets foot into the school or makes his/her kid do homework accuses me of singlehandedly making their child score poorly.

By simon