By Tony

August 13, 2008 8:42 AM | Link to this

There is no reason that Georgia must test every kid in every subject every year. Even NCLB with all its testing requirements does not call for such extensive testing. Parents need to know this information and should act through the political channels to reduce the testing burden on their children.

Social Studies is filled with important concepts that everyone should know about. However, to narrow down what concepts are important enough to test (and therefore teach) means that someone from Atlanta imposes their values on all teachers and schools throughout the state. Is this what the people of Georgia want?

Better aligning the curriculum and the test will improve the results, but this will be another nail in the coffin of local control.

By Michael

August 13, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

Some schools started days ago and the State is still debating the standards? What a load of idiots!

By Dan

August 13, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

Actually Tony there is complete local control, the NCLB simply requires consistency int he testing. The content of the testing and curriculum is controled locally. Even if it weren’t federal funds only make up approx 7% of the funding, so districts that complain the testing is too expensive could simply not comply and save money. Of course then they would lose their scapegoat

By waste of time

August 13, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

The DOE has already declared that the social studies scores for 6th and 7th grade CRCT won’t count this year. Why make the kids sit through the test? Certainly, the test questions could be “field tested” using a sample of students, rather than requiring every middle school to waste both time and money administering a test that has no impact.

By Andrea

August 13, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

As a parent of a 6th grader who aced the Social Studies test in question, the state needs to look at schools with high student pass rates as well as evaluating where the standards and test did not line up.

By simon

August 13, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

I agree with Tony that we should be working on reducing the number of tests students have to take so that they can actually use their school time to study/learn. Of course, it would help if more teachers knew how to actually help students learn, but testing sure does not help those incompetent teachers as they will focus only on those things that will be tested - AND they do poor job on that , too.

By Steve

August 13, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

Dan- Oh- you have some mis-understandings about school finace. Yes NCLB does mandate these types of tests and it it is tied to around 7% of state funding but it is a state decision to comply or loose teh money. 7% of federal dollars in a state that already has drastically undrfunded education s an enormous amount.

By tcoach

August 13, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

Why blame the teachers, sure there are those out there, as there is in any field, who only do the bare minimum to get by. However there is also a heavy burden that the parents and teh students themselves should take. But that is not likely to happen since we would never want to blame the students taking the test, or even worse blame their parents who do such an exceptional job of teaching their own children about discipline, and priorities.

By Susan

August 13, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

The problem is the well-off counties like Gwinnett buy practice books for the students. All year they do work from these and there are no surprises when it’s time for the CRCT. I’ll bet that some of the poorer areas can’t get these, so the kids are left in the dark.

By Concerned Parent

August 13, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

Tony is correct. Parents need to pressure local school systems AND the state DOE to reduce the number of tests to the bare minimum so teachers can do what they are hired to do: Teach a subject (not teach to a test). The test should be the ITBS, and all CRCT tests should be eliminated. Informed parents do NOT CARE at all how their children perform on the CRCT. We want to know how our children stack up to private school students and out of state students.

Dan, you must work for the state DOE. The state DOE policies and its “iron rule” over curricula have devastated our public schools and squandered our public funds.

By jim d

August 13, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

“What else do you think the state needs to do to prevent a repeat of widespread failure?”

Whatta say for starters we:

a) fire the entire Georgia DOE

and

b) fire the federal Gov. along with NCLB

By jim d

August 13, 2008 1:43 PM | Link to this

Susan,

my child never got a test prep book from GCPS, He did get handed a work sheet or two and whenevr the class was into something they would run into on the test—they were told “this will be on the test”

But hey!! GCPS CEO Napoalvin will get in your face if you accuse them of teaching to the test

By Dan

August 13, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

A steve Finance is my job 7% is 7%, and its not an enormous part of anything. It is 7% of the budget ??? hard to understand huh. However the point is, and this is even simpler math, if an adminstrator is complaing the testing cost $10K and their federal funding is $9K the complaint is baseless.
Concerned parent, my reference regarding control being local was meant to be it was not federal, state control in the context of a federal program is local. Now I agree that it should be even more localized, but NCLB doesn’t play a role there (well other than providing a scapegoat for inept pols

By jim d

August 13, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

I’m not sure how many of you are old enough to remember but as I recall The ED departments creation in 1979 was controversial and opposed by many in the Republican Party, who saw the department as an unconstitutional, unnecessary federal bureaucratic intrusion into local affairs.

Coincidently that seems to be about the same time in history that education in this nation started down the road to hell. (Thank you Jimmy Carter)

The answers to fixing education in the US should be rather obvious.

By Vince

August 13, 2008 3:48 PM | Link to this

Susan….None of my kids in Gwinnett got any kind of CRCT test practice books or sheets. The teachers just taught the standards and the kids learned them.

With respects to the social studies CRCT, the test just didn’t match the curriculum. In other words, if 6th grade social studies covers Africa, Europe and Australia there were questions on the test regarding the Americas and Asia. My 6th grader passed it but she said it was “the hardest test she ever took.” Rightfully so, much of the material wasn’t stff the teacher was supposed to teach.

By itsokay

August 13, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

I say they need to quit with the whole CRCT testing…who started this mess anyway…when we were in school there were no testing at all…not even for high school…what different does it make…anyways - other than to keep your kids back…the test don’t show anything…

By catlady

August 13, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

CRCt is a mess anyway you cut it, or shovel it. If it MEANS anything(which the state DOE has not done the analysis to show it does) , then we should follow it. If it doesn’t (which has been the modus operandi for years, passing everyone on whether they pass the test or not) then get rid of it. At either rate, the way we do it now is a gigantic waste of time and money.

By steve

August 13, 2008 5:20 PM | Link to this

The test is a wonderful idea. Look at the people that are employed because of this educational solve all - graduation coaches, academic coaches, technology coaches, administrators, RESAs, etc. I am not an expert like these people but I am willing to bet that a large percentage of every system has nothing to do with teaching kids. If we did away with the test what would all these people do for a living? I have gone online and checked a couple of different systems and it is mind boggling. One system had 1,408 employees but when you went and looked at the school web pages there were less than 200 teachers. One school had 84 people working there (on the school web page) and had 22 teachers. We owe the students a quality education based on one test and we owe these people a decent wage. Yes, I love the CRCT. What a joke. Just as the CRCT is justified by so many (like our prestigious DOE) I am sure many of these others can justify their jobs (which I am sure they have to do on a daily basis). Yes, this very sound testing idea is very expensive.

By UpsetParent

August 13, 2008 5:57 PM | Link to this

I have a couple of friends that teach. I also am involved in my child’s school. Teachers I know are very upset at the entire testing system. Morale is low, they are forced to teach to a test question, and jobs are in jeopardy. Add in the coach fiasco the testing problem is compounded. At my child’s school the CRCT experts are coaches. The reality is that one was removed from the classroom for incompetence. One had 2 years experience, left teaching for a state job that was eliminated after 15 years and they walked into an expert position. Everything in the school is geared towards one test and the kids are reminded daily - now my child hates to read and hates school. One of their teachers tells them to read all period and then sits at her computer (apparently working on her advanced mail order degree). My child’s school is in ned of maintenance but the maintenance is pulled to prepare the football stadium while toilets won’t flush. Nepotism and cronyism is rampant into cush jobs ar the expense of the classroom. And the state cannot write an accurate test that is so important. I wonder how many other state mandated incometence tests have been put into place. How do I spell sorry? I spell it “educational ineptness” from the top on down.

By DJ

August 13, 2008 7:30 PM | Link to this

The state of Georgia has really thrown social studies under the proverbial bus. The GPS standards and frameworks for social studies are terrible.

Look at this: http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/DMGetDocument.aspx/8th%20Grade%20Unit%202%20accepted%207-13.pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F6AD00D45001ABA140E07F583CFEE061039CDBB1F634007977&Type=D

This is a “unit” for 8th grade Georgia Studies. Look at the grammar. How can social studies teachers take these units seriously?

By concerned2

August 13, 2008 8:00 PM | Link to this

As a parent of a seventh grader and a teacher, I am aghast at the emphasis that is being placed on a test that is not recognized in other states. My husband was considered for a job transfer to another state; while researching schools, I found that the only test scores that would be looked at when placing my child would be scores on nationally normed tests such as the IOWA Tests of Basic Skills. His last normed test was in the fall of fifth grade! As a teacher, I would like to see how my students perform compared to children across the country. To help me determine my effectiveness as a teacher, I would like to give a fall “pre” test and then a late spring “post” test. That way, I can chart each student’s progress and administrators could track progress across grade levels. For example, a child dropping from the 90th percentile to the 80th percentile is a red flag! As a realist, can we really expect every child regardless of educational background, parental involvement, intelligence, homelife, and life experiences to “meet expectations” each year as they progress through Georgia schools? I love teaching and, like the majority of Georgia teachers, will do my best to help my students succeed. Am I sick of the pressures and unrealistic expectations of the CRCT? Yes!

By simon

August 13, 2008 8:48 PM | Link to this

ConcernedParent 1 & 2

I don’t see why you want to have ITBS or Iowa test of basic skills as the only test. If you are going that route, we might as well have a national curriculum and national standardized tests. Those who pay attention to the percentile scores aren’t paying attention to the whole picture. When different states have different standards, some children would score lower on the percentile score simply because others may have already studied some topics that aren’t included in the first child’s state standards. If the test is so basic that all US children should have learned by a particular grade, that probably means it will be a couple of grades below the grade level as a whole. So, what does it mean that your 5th grader score 99th percentile on a 3rd grade level materials? Going from the 90th to 80th doesn’t necessarily tell you anything either.

If we want the local control of education, and what we care is whether or not students have learned what they are expected, then something like CRCT developed for and administered by each state is the only way to go. If you want to compare your state with another, you can rely on something like the NAEP which uses samples, not the whole population.

By SS teach

August 13, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this

Andrea hit the nail on the head!!! The problem had a MAJOR component of the CONCEPTS not actually being taught (or at least taught well). “Highly qualified” for MS SS under NCLB is a total joke. When college transcripts were evaluated, basic classes like freshman government, phsychology, sociology, etc. counted towards the five required to be “highly qualified.” By Andrea

August 13, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

As a parent of a 6th grader who aced the Social Studies test in question, the state needs to look at schools with high student pass rates as well as evaluating where the standards and test did not line up.

By SS teach

August 13, 2008 9:42 PM | Link to this

The proposed changes being voted on tomorrow ARE NOT what was available for public comment. Several MORE things have been removed or added. Perhaps items removed such as The Reformation & Scientific Revolution would have raised concerns just as the Renaissance time period did. However, the public did not have the opportunity.

By concerned2

August 13, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this

What I wrote was such as the IOWA… It’s not a perfect testing instrument either, but at least it is recognized in school systems across the country. An example of weaknesses and frustrations teachers and parents have with the CRCT can be found as children make the transition from second to third grade. In second grade all questions and choices in the Reading section are read to the children. In Math and Language Arts, everything is read. One year later, though, nothing other than instructions can be read by the teacher in any content area. A child may have mastered the standard as far as understandings (Science and Social Studies especially) but be unable to read content vocabulary and answer multiple choice questions well enough to meet expectations. Are we testing, then, content knowledge or reading ability? As far as percentiles, while doing graduate work (not on-line, but on a campus with two of the leading testing developers and consultants in the nation), I was taught that percentiles were a much better way to compare and determine children’s levels of understanding than a scale score (CRCT) or a grade equivalent. What we as parents and educators need to do is to realize that as we develop test after test to determine whether or not our children are learning, our country is losing its ability to prepare students for their roles in a global economy. Three excellent teaching opportunities are taking place this year - the world demand for oil and its impact on our country, the Olympics, and the Presidential election. When keeping pace with the CRCT driven timelines, though, many teachers will only mention both if they are fortunate enough to have a day long enough to include ten minutes for current events. Perhaps we need to listen less to people who have no experience in the classroom and with children and instead listen to the people who know children best. (Unfortunately, sometimes it’s the teacher who knows a child better than the parent.)

By TheBlogger

August 13, 2008 10:02 PM | Link to this

No. I don’t think that there will be as large of a failure percentage in the CRCT this year. Why? Because now the teachers, the students, and all involved are hyper-aware of the importance of the subject and content.

Sure, there will still be some failures. But, I would wager that there will be a huge improvement.

Another reason for a jump in passing rates? Isn’t Cox up for re-election next year? She must have something to base her re-election on, right? She will fudge the numbers if they aren’t right for her own political benefit. And yes, the voting majority will be dumb enough to fall for this and re-elect her.

By atlmom

August 14, 2008 1:13 AM | Link to this

The whole testing thing is absurd. We all KNOW which schools are good. It’s only some of us who can CHOOSE which schools to go to. I.e., I can buy a house in any neighborhood I want. But not everyone can afford to do that.

So SOME of us have school choice, and some of us don’t. Even WITHIN the public schools. Clearly choice is no panacea, but it’s better that what we have. which is some people have choice and others don’t. And those without choice are possibly those that need it the most.

It’s the dems who think choice is a bad thing. Why? Well, maybe you can figure that out….

By billy bob

August 14, 2008 5:10 AM | Link to this

The tests are a joke. Almost as funny as the lottery helping education in Georgia. Ha1

By billy bob

August 14, 2008 5:10 AM | Link to this

The tests are a joke. Almost as funny as the lottery helping education in Georgia. Ha!

By simon

August 14, 2008 6:15 AM | Link to this

concerned2

Would you care to elaborate why percentile scores are better other than simply telling us you were taught so in a graduate course? What are the criteria?

As far as the issue of testing content or reading is concerned, I agree that it is a VERY valid point. But, why wouldn’t it apply to all tests? Is the difference only that other tests have that issue for all grade levels while the problem with the CRCT starts in Grade 3?

By jim d

August 14, 2008 7:02 AM | Link to this

BTW Susan

“well-off counties like Gwinnett buy practice books for the students.”

they need not be bought—1st - 5th can be found free online

By henry county parent

August 18, 2008 11:13 PM | Link to this

OK, what am I missing? My daughter aced the social studies portion of CRCT for 6th grade, and she wasn’t given practice sheets, books, etc., and she goes to school in Henry County, which I am sad to say is no great school system. She doesn’t even like Social Studies, so what’s the answer? Something is not adding up. If my daughter’s education is better than most, we are all in a heap of trouble. Yikes!