Get Schooled

By flipper

August 7, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

Providing an adequate education is a responsibility of the school districts. Until they max out their millage rate and assess properties accurately, a school system should not be allowed to complain. Too often, in rural areas, the taxing authority is run by local “good ole boys” who have their kids in the local private school and couldn’t give a rip about what happens to the kids who are stuck in public schools. The focus should be on these bubbas, and their behavior should not be rewarded by raiding school districts whose leaders take responsibility for education.

By flipper

August 7, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

Providing an adequate education is a responsibility of the school districts. Until they max out their millage rate and assess properties accurately, a school system should not be allowed to complain. Too often, in rural areas, the taxing authority is run by local “good ole boys” who have their kids in the local private school and couldn’t give a rip about what happens to the kids who are stuck in public schools. The focus should be on these bubbas, and their behavior should not be rewarded by raiding school districts whose leaders take responsibility for education.

By catlady

August 7, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

That deputy supt must be from Cobb County

By One Voice

August 7, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

One of the main problems in this country right now, IMO, is that too many adults, a huge majority, don’t understand science. They cannot adequately weigh evidence, which means that they cannot make sound judgments in most areas of their lives.

But what is at the root of this problem is that 50% of the adults in the U.S. read on an 8th grade level or below; I have seen the research. If students cannot read well enough and cannot reason well enough, they will not understand science or social studies, for that matter. I teach 10th grade language arts and every year I have students who think that Columbus came to the New World in the 1700’s or 1800’s and that Martin Luther King Jr. freed the slaves in the 1950’s.

Education needs to be well rounded if our society is to advance. It begins with being able to read adequately. But science should be the ultimate goal because science helps us get as close to the truth as possible by using testing and research, not just in scientific fields, but in all aspects of life.

By A1502235

August 7, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

I don’t reside in Georgia and where I live it takes a great deal of ed, really to the point of ludicrousness because of neglect of minorities and parallel poor whites. But worse is the disregard for the educated. Rising above the percetion that dumb and stupid can get the job done with less effort.

By zeke

August 7, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

Adequate has absolutely nothing to do with big lavish buildings, or, with the amount of frivilous excess dollars thrown at education! Students should have a firm grasp of US and state history, english, math and all sciences! Social studies, philosophy, foreign languages, and, other liberal arts studies should only be electives, not required! Same for colleges and universities. A student of engineering being required to take foreign language, world history, philosophy, etc., is absurd. Instead they need more and more math and science!

By hardknocks

August 7, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

By Tater

August 7, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

And people wonder why we are 47th in education?

Give it up folks. This state is toast. The kids today can’t count, speak clearly or complete a sentence without “you know”, “um”, “ain’t”, “cuz”, “holla”, “yo”and anything else you can think of.

I’m so glad that the state has focused so much on reading, english and math. I feel so much better.

Do you want to try an interesting trick? Find a restaurant that just lost power and give the clerk a bill that requires change. Talk about a look of total confusion..

Thanks Georgia!

By lewis

August 7, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

“Flipper” and “One Voice” are both on target in their comments on this. The idea that science isn’t necessary was no doubt expressed by an education official who didn’t learn anything in his education school training. And forget emphasizing history in our schools. That so many fail to understand the present problems and have any grasp of how we got where we are is directly attributable to the failure to adequately teach history and critical thinking. That any official would openly say such a foolish thing is disheartening at best. Anyone making college visits with a child will tell you that all colleges are most interested in whether the student candidate took the most sciences and math their school offered. Gee, I wonder why that is…?

By FormerTeacher

August 7, 2008 9:58 AM | Link to this

Tater you are mistaken to make such a blanket statement aoubt “kids today”. Both of my children can count, read above level and always excel on standardized tests, just as I did. MY 10 year can count change quite easily. We teach him that at home. It’s important for him to know if he got the right change when he buys something.

I really don’t think that the state knows what an adequate education is. This “new” math is total crap! I am so sick of it that I am really considering putting my kids back in private school. And since the state allows children in speech therapy to receive vouchers, they can pay for my son next year.

BTW, we may rank low, but almost all of the teachers that I’ve met come from different states, and they all tell similar stories about education. I really don’t think it’s fair to compare states because in some instances, it’s really is like comparing apples to oranges.

By jct

August 7, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this

@hardknocks

Your logic is flawed. Bill Gates obviously received more than an adequate public education because he just did not drop out of ‘joe smoe, accept everybody’ university, he dropped out of Harvard. He receive more than an adequate education; he received an education worthy of a Harvard admittance.

I don’t know Limbaugh’s academic history. So I can not speak to his case.

If anything, hardknocks, you solidified why an adequate education is necessary at the high school level. You don’t need a college degree for every job.

By Kim

August 7, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

Adequate? Is the goal here to educate the future leaders of this country or to staff low paying factory jobs? Why is mediocrity the acceptable goal? Several years ago a principal at a Tyrone, GA middle school was quoted in the AJC defending public education in Georgia as being “completely adequate”. PATHETIC!!!

By Old School

August 7, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

“What do you think of the state’s comments?” I consider par for the course. Evidently all it takes to work in the twin ivory towers is being blind to reality, deaf to those on the frontlines, and a god-like attitude that allows them to impose change without a clue.

“What is needed for a child’s education to be adequate?” A solid foundation in math and communications (written/oral) that are grounded in the real world; life skills (budgets, personal finance, social graces/business etiquette, etc.); experience in decision making; some skill that can lead to gainful employment; work ethics; personal ethics; possibly conversational Spanish/Japanese/Chinese (because it looks like we’ll all need it) and especially PARENTING SKILLS.

By Tater

August 7, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

FormerTeacher

You are correct that I shouldn’t have made a blanket statement and truly thank you for teaching your kids outside of the government school forum.

Based on our ranking in the US, which we have to use since the state BOE truly has a biased view, we are falling WAY short of depriving our kids of an education.

My statement of this state is toast is still right on target. Look at the Bonehead from Bonaire! Even though the state is in a budget crisis the legislature (with Perdue) still approved an additional 700 million in expenditures. Goes back to the math issue :-))

By Tony

August 7, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

The state’s “defense” against the funding lawsuit will certainly reveal an interesting mix of our politicians’ priorities and values. As this report already indicates, they have begun to speak out of both sides of their mouths. How disingenuous! But it is no surprise to me.

Our state constitution declares that it is the responsibility of the state to provide an adequate education for its citizens. So laws have been established that all students must pass exams in all subjects before graduating high school. Now a state official is stating it is not necessary to pass these subjects to have an adequate education. Yet without the high school diploma, how is someone able to document they have the “adequate” education.

Quite frankly, our schools can not do without science and social studies and still provide an adequate education. These subjects are even more important in our society than ever before. Yet, our state is indicating there is no intention of adequately funding its educational system. This is very scary and the citizens need to rise up and demand from the politicians full funding for the quality education our students deserve.

Now my final point. Many times in this forum educators have been derided for their failures. How can we be held accountable when it is clearly the political systems that limit our effectiveness. Professional educators are generally good at what they do and it is truly a shame that we get blamed for actions of people who are completely disconnected from the realities of teaching children.

By Tater

August 7, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

Old School

Everything you stated is correct. The State of Georgia BOE is doing the exact opposite. Hooray for our “leaders.”

FormerTeacher Not all students are this way :-))

By Davd

August 7, 2008 11:11 AM | Link to this

Adequate? -Have enough knowledge in biology to understand how medications work. - Have enough education in Math to balance the checkbook and to understand basic physics - Basic physics are needed to preserve life (understanding why you cannot drive 85mph in a 30mph zone) - How electricity works. - Understand how statistics works - Understand the constitution and the bill of rights - Be able to write a letter with a word processor using correct spelling and grammar. - A basic understanding in nutrition and excercise.

All off these are needed to help people live a better healthy life.

By Jeff

August 7, 2008 11:21 AM | Link to this

Tony:

Correction: Professional Educators are the REASON we are in this mess. It is only due to the tenacity of TEACHERS who happen to be ‘professional’ that we are as high as we are! (We would be FAR lower.)

By lyncoln

August 7, 2008 11:36 AM | Link to this

I don’t quite like the phrasing of Laura’s question today.

“What do you think of the state’s comments?” is unclear what to focus on. The quoted transcript clearly shows that the ‘no needed for adequate’ comments are a personal opinion held by the official. They aren’t the ‘state’s comments’, they are a personal opinion.

Now, I am unhappy that someone with so much power within the administration personally feels that science and social studies aren’t needed for an adequate education. I don’t think I would hire someone who personally felt that way about 2 of the 4 main subject areas into an education administration position.

As for an adequate education, I agree with Old School’s list. Obviously the ‘skill that can lead to gainful employment’ is extremely broad and covers education that leads through college, trade/technical school, and lots of other possibilities. I think the ‘college or bust’ mentality really limits and hurts the ability for a student to receive an ‘adequate’ education.

By Jason

August 7, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

History should be all but eliminated from high school curriculums, as it’s little more than poorly written fiction. We don’t definitively know why we went to war in Iraq, so how can we purport to understand why certain events occurred hundreds or thousands of years ago?

Literature sufficiently familiarizes students with historical themes, while also exposing them to complex diction and syntax that is non-existent in dull history books.

By Dennis

August 7, 2008 11:59 AM | Link to this

An adequate education is the mastery of the tools needed for everyday life.

School vouchers may help a special few, but they will not help the quality of public education overall. The problems are deep seated, ongoing and long overdue for major attention. They have not received the proper attention because the American people have been cultured by politicians and the extremely wealthy to put the needs of education behind corporate tax breaks and corporate profits and the military.

An adequate education prepares someone to be self-reliant in a competitive society, but it doesn’t and shouldn’t stop there. An adequate education also prepares someone to be an individual and to recognize the political, religious and social BS that he or she is going to be faced with in everyday life.

And not least, an adequate education includes an understanding and appreciation of the “fine arts”, great music, art and literature.

Until then, we only will have the status quo.

By Scooter

August 7, 2008 1:16 PM | Link to this

‘What is needed for a child’s education to be adequate?’

Isn’t this a question more suited for the NEA and other Teachers’ Unions?

By Lee

August 7, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

Simply put, an adequate education would be a set of knowledge and skills that enable a student to be successful in the next phase of their lives.

For some, the next phase may include a continuation of formal studies in a university setting. Others may go to a technical school to learn a trade. Still others will go directly into the workforce.

Guess what? There is not a damn thing wrong with either of these paths.

But, if you frequent this blog for any length of time, there is one prevailing theme that becomes evident. That is, those in academia place an inordinate amount of worth on how many degrees one has hanging on the wall. Not only how many degrees, but where you got them from (as in, “I got my Phd from a ‘real school,’ not some online diploma mill”).

It’s funny, but these same nose-up-in-the-air Phd’s will go home and pay an electrician $200 to hang a ceiling fan.

Back in the 70’s, I learned enough academics to go to college AND learned about the three W’s (welding, wiring, and woodshop). It can be done.

Back to the original question, what is an adequate education.

There are so many things our schools could be doing (and a few are) such as partnering with local technical schools and community colleges. They could graduate students who would be well on their way to earning a license in a trade.

But no, we are trying to force feed them a calculus class because some curriculum director down at the DOE thinks everyone should go to college.

The more education I received, the less impressed I became with the educated.

Funny how that works…

By Lee

August 7, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this

Simply put, an adequate education would be a set of knowledge and skills that enable a student to be successful in the next phase of their lives.

For some, the next phase may include a continuation of formal studies in a university setting. Others may go to a technical school to learn a trade. Still others will go directly into the workforce.

Guess what? There is not a damn thing wrong with either of these paths.

But, if you frequent this blog for any length of time, there is one prevailing theme that becomes evident. That is, those in academia place an inordinate amount of worth on how many degrees one has hanging on the wall. Not only how many degrees, but where you got them from (as in, “I got my Phd from a ‘real school,’ not some online diploma mill”).

It’s funny, but these same nose-up-in-the-air Phd’s will go home and pay an electrician $200 to hang a ceiling fan.

Back in the 70’s, I learned enough academics to go to college AND learned about the three W’s (welding, wiring, and woodshop). It can be done.

Back to the original question, what is an adequate education.

There are so many things our schools could be doing (and a few are) such as partnering with local technical schools and community colleges. They could graduate students who would be well on their way to earning a license in a trade.

But no, we are trying to force feed them a calculus class because some curriculum director down at the DOE thinks everyone should go to college.

The more education I received, the less impressed I became with the educated.

Funny how that works…

By beth

August 7, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

Lets get back to the basics in Reading, Writing and “ARITHMETIC”. I agree with the writer above who said about a store with a power problem and the clerk couldn’t give change. Well it happened to me in a local fast food restaurant. The fancy computerized registers make it too easy. I have nothing against them, it is easier and faster. As a parent of a child who is about to begin their education, probably will choose private over public in this state. Time to shove all these tests and let the teachers teach. These children are our future.

By Kim

August 7, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

The State of Georgia and most of the posters here should understand what “adequate” means: “as much or as good as necessary for some requirement or purpose”. Not a very lofty goal, is it?

Translated…an adequate education means “just enough to get by and no more”. Typical goals for government workers, isn’t it?

By Tater

August 7, 2008 3:31 PM | Link to this

beth PLEASE, PLEASE put your child who you love in private school. You will be so impressed with what he/she will learn in a non-government environment.

Kim Yes, very typical for government workers. I work with a former state employee and he is the laziest person I’ve ever met. He is great at watching the clock though, leaves exactly on “time”.

By Public School Teacher

August 7, 2008 3:56 PM | Link to this

Private doesn’t necessarily mean better! I know several private school teachers who are only employed there because they couldn’t pass the certification test in their area, and didn’t qualify to teach in public school!

By Kim

August 7, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

Define “private”. Are those private school teachers teaching in schools operated out of church basements? I’ve found that too often church-operated schools are lumped under the private school definition.

From personal experience, I can tell you that my public school education was barely adequate when compared to my husband’s private school education. Our oldest child attended public schools in Cobb County. When it came time for our youngest to enter middle school in Cobb County, we sent her to private school instead. I deeply regret not having done the same for our oldest. The experience each has had in college reflects the quality of the education they had received prior to entering college. Guess which one has been struggling?

Public school educators seem to prefer to believe that private school educations don’t necessarily mean better educations. Are they trying to convince themselves they are doing a better job than they are? A real private school (not a church basement school) provides a FAR better foundation for students wishing to attend college.

By Steve

August 7, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

This shows me a couple of things. First, we have a lot of people running education that don’t have a clue more than most would ever guess. How would I know? I am a classroom teacher and have to put up with tons of mandates that are little more than someone trying to justify their job. Brings to mind the Peter Principle. Second, it shows just how much these “leaders” care about the child. In reality they are “bean counters” and not educators. Where I work there are 7 layers of supervision between the classroom teacher and the superintendent. That is in direct line and not including the coaches (who are little more than a patsy putting out the party line), RESA (who can take a 15 minute professional training session and turn it into 4 days), etc. I work at a small school and we have 22 academic, 4 exploratory and 3 special ed teachers. Yet we have 35 people that do not teach wandering around the school trying to justify their job. Some of these hold their jobs based on nepotism and cronyism (he said tongue in cheek - elementary principal’s wife, superintendent’s children, etc.) So, the statement about an adequate education does not surprise me in the slightest. These people are not there to have your child’s best interest at heart. I really wish the population of Georgia would start holding education accountable or it will go the way of the adjustable rate mortgage mess. The only one that will suffer is your child.

By Food for thought

August 7, 2008 5:30 PM | Link to this

Kim - if you think the success of a private school education is solely the result of the teachers, then here is some food for thought:

There is a segment of folks not as well off - scholarship receipients. Often you will find those kids are super-motivated and the parents are extremely supportive because they want to take advantage of the opportunity, and not waste it.

Now, I’m not anti-private school, but I am anti-teacher bashing. There are lousy employees in every career, and teachers, public or private, are certainly no exception. But, if I were to put my children in a private school , it is not because I think the teachers are going to be any better. It is because I think the other students in the class and the environment are.

By Lee

August 7, 2008 5:33 PM | Link to this

The appeal and success of a private school is not so much who is at the front of the classroom as who is IN the classroom.

Private schools are able to filter out the cronic troublemakers and other malcontents. As a result, they don’t have the “issues” that a public school faces.

Public School Teacher has confused passing a certification exam with competence. Public schools have Phd’s teaching 1st graders, Master Teachers, and a “highly qualified staff”, but are still graduating illiterates. Explain that one.

By just a teacher

August 7, 2008 5:40 PM | Link to this

Parents simply must do the research and figure out about the quality of the public schools in their area. It doesn’t matter nearly as much if the school system or the high school across town has problems as long as what’s going on in your child’s classroom is effective. There are MANY excellent public schools and public school teachers in this state: don’t lump us all into the statistics!

Side note: a professor of mine in college argued that private schools are best for the “second quintile” students. Those in the lower half need special services and usually wouldn’t be accepted by private schools; those in the top 20% are going to stand out anywhere. The second quintile kids are the ones who tend to fall through the cracks, so a private school might be a good option for them. Don’t know if I agree with him, just putting it out there.

By Rural Georgia Mom

August 7, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

schools “can do without science” and that students “can fail social studies and get an adequate education.”

As is typical with teachers and educrats in Georgia, the DOE is run by a bunch of undereducated women who did not enjoy math and science in school. How many Tech grads work at the DOE in Atlanta? I am guessing zero. Probably lots of UGA grads, though - who were accepted to UGA when you could drive through Athens and have a diploma thrown in your window. Is UGA still easy, now that the Hope has kept many of the smarter kids in state? Maybe some of those ‘smarter kids’ will major in education.

By Rural Georgia Mom

August 7, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

Regarding my last comment: I realize that not all UGA education majors are dumb - I am painting with a broad brush.

By Steve

August 7, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Lee, Do not assume that because a person has a PhD that it means anything. There are places like Phoenix, Nova, etc., that are in the business of making money. They are doctorate mills. Graduates from these schools will try to convince you how hard they worked. To see the true value of what they did, look into these programs. I know a person that did this and cannot conjugate a verb. On faculty meetings this person speaks and everyone starts snickering because of the obvious. I know a principal that had his secretary (on school time) do his papers. The sole reason is the money even though the highly qualified is lacking. There are many classroom teachers that bust their tail to educate children. They are obstructed by more inportant things like pretesting, post testing, benchmark testing, posting standards (ask any child if they ever read them) essential questions, etc. I have taken maybe 3 professional development classes (in more than 20 years) that provided anything of value. Many of these are taught by these “shake and bake” PhDs hosted by RESA (people that could not handle the classroom) sent by people who have no real classroom time or involvement other than they need to say they did something. The poor classroom teacher is facing insurmountable roadblocks set in place by people more worried about their job but have no real job. I work with a teacher that has given up and going after her PhD from NOVA. Every day she does her “college” work on the computer and gives worksheets to her students. She will tell you that nothing will happen to her and it has not. It makes the school “look good” when they publish teacher qualifications. Never mond there is no learning taking place and she is far removed from “highly qualified.” Yes, a sorry state of affairs.

By Food for thought

August 7, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this

Public schools have Phd’s teaching 1st graders, Master Teachers, and a “highly qualified staff”, but are still graduating illiterates. Explain that one.

Lee, because in many ways, public school education is a game. Many of the “illiterate graduates” and their families have learned to play the game. They have learned how to stay under the radar, earning passing grades in electives and just skating by in academics. Want an eye-opened? Google grading policies and look at some of the stuff out there on that.

It doesn’t help when you throw in social promotion (which is not a teacher problem; it is a system problem).

By luvs2teach

August 7, 2008 6:27 PM | Link to this

Schools “can do without science” and that students “can fail social studies and get an adequate education.”

Uhmmm…I am speechless. I don’t know what to say. While I realize that these statements were made in a deposition, and that Ms. Leonard said they were “her opinion,” I am appalled that anyone at that level could, in good conscience, say such a thing, opinion or not.

She might not need science personally, but I bet she would want her doctor, dentist, veterinarian, or pharmacist to have studied a little biology. If she ever flies a plane, she might feel comforted to know that the pilot learned a thing or two about the science of aeronautics. If she’s ever in a wreck, and it’s not clear who is at fault, and has to file an insurance claim, she might want an insurance investigator who knows a thing or two about physics to be able to determine that.

And as far as social studies goes, I guess she doesn’t think it’s necessary for students to learn how our government works - I mean, it’s only an election year - it’s not important for the sheeple to be able to have enough knowledge to determine the issues. It doesn’t matter if a Georgia graduate who joins the armed forces to serve his or her country knows where Iraq is.

Unbelievable.

Now, let it be said, I am biased on this issue, as a SCIENCE teacher. I strongly feel a basic knowledge of science and social studies is key to an “adequate” education, NCLB or not.

On the topic of funding - let those rural counties max out their mils and pass a SPLOST, and then we can talk about more handouts.

By Taxpayer

August 7, 2008 6:36 PM | Link to this

I think Bush , Perdue, and the rest of the Republican klan are a bunch of idiots that simply cannot stand the thought of others with more education than them. Then again, my education goes well beyond the NCLB requirements. I even learned a little science to complement my math. I think I’ve evolved quite nicely as a result.

By Steve

August 7, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this

Food for thought. It is interesting to look that up. Where I work the minimum score as student can get is a 60. Then we have to allow them time to make it up. If a student does not do their work for 9 weeks and in reality has a 0 their grade is a 60 on the report card. That means that if they do a couple of assignments they can end up passing. We have a really curriculum superintendent that has 1 year teaching experience 22 years ago. Take that a step farther - last school year we had 65% fail 8th grade math. Less than half then passed after summer school. That means that roughly 35% failed 8th grade math CRCT and should have not been sent to high school according to the law (rotflmao). Ended up not one student retained. The principal ended up being recognized by the state for his outstanding improvement in CRCT scores. Very very sad. Unfortunately it happens a lot and is getting worse. Years ago systems lost administrators (assistant prinsipals). This guy took several (same color) teachers out of the classroom and made them master teachers that handled assistant principal duties. Go figure. Those that can teach and those that can’t administrate - a little literary freedom.

By JJ

August 7, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

FormerTeacher

Can you care to elaborate on your comments on the new math standards? Quite frankly, I think you have basically no knowledge of the new standards and simply spewing something that’s been fed to you someone else.

Beth

Please, we don’t live in the 18th century anymore. Arithmetic isn’t what our students need.

BOE

No science needed? I suppose you have to say that given the unreasonable focus on reading/writing and math in schools. Of course, we should not forget that science and social studies were never really that much of an emphasis ever. So, things haven’t really changed.

By Dennis

August 7, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

To my knowledge, Georgia has had three “improvement’ programs within the past forty years, APEG (Adequate Program for Education in Georgia), QBE (Quality Basic Education) and MFP (Minimum Foundation Program).

“Minimum”, “Basic” and “[IN]adequate” have been the results. None of these were ever fully funded to meet their goals.

Education (as much as national defense) has always been a political hot potato. Unfortunately, the above programs were politically designed and expected (and promised) to see “instant” results, and if they did not, we were quick to blame the “sorry teachers.”

Major improvements in public education will take a long time to achieve. An “adequate education” is but the first step.

By Dave

August 7, 2008 7:16 PM | Link to this

If you can read the computer screen above your work station and flip burgers or if you can shovel out a sewer ditch while a manager explains to you what to do in broken english or full spanish, then you have an adequate education. When you breed and have offspring just hope the meth and alcohol you have been doing with your spouse don’t mess them up so much they have to drop out of school in 5th grade instead of 7th grade like you did. We don’t need intelligent beings coming out of the school system anymore, just animals that can cook food, load trucks, dig ditches, haul trash, and clean up after the rest of us. Teachers can try all they want, drug babies can’t learn even if they wanted to. The government will take care of you for the rest of your life. Don’t worry about the school system …

By Rural Georgia Mom

August 7, 2008 7:35 PM | Link to this

This “new” math is total crap! I am so sick of it that I am really considering putting my kids back in private school Former Teacher - you are correct about the new math. The “new” math is “reform math” which is commonly known as Everyday Math, Connected Math, Integrated Math (as in the New HS Standards) and it is an attempt by language-arts-minded people to turn math into language-arts-math. The kids who really have “math-minds” cannot stand “reform math” and are zoning out. I have watched it with my own kids and with the kids I tutor. The new HS standards are going to fail an entire generation of kids in Georgia. Simply because educrats (and most teachers) hated math as students and cannot understand that many students actually enjoy real math (not the silly new stuff where your answers are in essay form and your tests are group tests, but REAL math -as in Pythagorus and Euclid and times tables). In general, the generation teaching our kids, now, were not math-minded as students, or they would have chosen a career in a math-oriented field with greater pay than teaching provides.

By Rural Georgia Mom

August 7, 2008 7:44 PM | Link to this

JJ - Judging by your comments about arithmetic being so “18th century” and the new math being acceptable, I think you must work in the DOE with Kathy Cox. Either that, or you have been drinking the koolaid provided by the Everyday Math sales-team (or perhaps my kids gifted teachers (plural) who say “these kids will not need to know math facts when they grow up because they will have disposable calculators in their pockets.”)

By Kim

August 7, 2008 8:52 PM | Link to this

Food for Thought…Nothing in my post bashed teachers. I bashed teachers who bash other teachers because those other teachers teach in a private school. You should to reread that post.

By Lt. Henry

August 7, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

The anti-intellectual, anti-education, closed-minded parochialism seen in so many native Southerners is easily understood and quite predictable when one considers that this population springs from a mostly impoverished (and often subjugated) agrarian society. Destitute farmers and laborers had no need for education and saw no need to educate their offspring. They were suspicious of and frightened by educated individuals. Over the generations these attitudes became ingrained, became societal norms, pehaps even becoming part of the genome, like droopy earlobes. Today, we see the educational bureaucrats struggle against this tide, and we see the results, and still we wonder why, and then we realize that they themselves are bound by the chains of ancestry. As my wife, native of Natchez, says, it’s like the blind leading the blind.

By Food for thought

August 7, 2008 9:06 PM | Link to this

Public school educators seem to prefer to believe that private school educations don’t necessarily mean better educations. Are they trying to convince themselves they are doing a better job than they are?

Kim - upon rereading I can see what you may have been trying to say. However, since you didn’t use a qualifier such as “‘some’ public school teachers” it reads, IMHO, as bashing. In other words, I inferred that you meant ALL public school teachers suffered some kind of error in thinking. The addition of the second sentence had a bashing tone.

When tone is the problem, rereading doesn’t do much good. However clarification often does. Have a good night.

By catlady

August 7, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

Better inputs (higher parental ed and SES, better health, values instilled, better behaved, lots of support for extracurricular programs, more parental followup and interest) almost always result in better outputs. A poor piece of metal almost always results in a poor product. The building doesn’t matter much.

example: UGA has top inputs. It is no surprise they graduate a high percentage of their students. Other colleges, such as the public HBSUs in Georgia, have lower level inputs. They struggle to graduate less than half their students. Who is successful? The school who started with kids who can hardly fail unless you shut them in a closet for 4 years, or the schools that started with kids who enter nearly totally unready for college level work? The school that takes in students that have little chance of success, but manages to keep them in school and nurture and mentor them until they attain a degree—I would argue that these schools are the “top” ones. (Maybe not number 1 in football……)

An adequate education must take into account the student skills, aptitude, and interests. If your school does not offer physics, but there are students with an interest in physics, it is not providing an adequate education.

There are basic things all students should know, basic skills they should be able to demonstrate. I would argue that it doesn’t include calc for everyone.

By TheBlogger

August 7, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this

Kim - You poor soul. Let’s look at an analogy for a moment….

You have a barrel of apples. Some apples have brown spots. Some apples have worms. Some apples are small. Some apples are large. Some apples are perfect.

Then, you remove the more perfect apples from the barrel and place them in a basket. What types of apples do you have left? Are the remaining apples in the barrel the same as those in the basket?

More wealthy people can afford many things that average and poor people cannot. This alone gives their children an advantage. And then, when those more advantaged children go to private school, what remains for the public schools?

Am I saying that all public school children are “better” than all private school children. Of course not!

However, I know quite a few private school teachers. Most of them are not certified. Some of them would never be hired in a public school because they are not qualified. Some of them couldn’t get into an education program in college because they weren’t qualified. I also know some great private school teachers. Many of those that I know ran from a public school to a private school because they could not handle it.

But, the bottom line is that the “apples” in the private school are usually more perfect and so the teacher doesn’t have to be.

Can a student in a public school get a superior education? Heck yeah! Public schools students from right here in GA get scholarships to MIT, Yale, Harvard, and so on. Some are National Merit Scholars.

Are there “poor” or “bad” public schools. Yes. But please notice that these are usually located in poor areas and/or in areas where the parents are not involved. Private school parents are usually very involved because they are paying the extra big bucks to the school.

If a failing student in a public school goes to a private school, does that mean that they will succeed? Not necessarily at all. That “apple” may still have brown spots or worms or other issues that have to be addressed before getting any education.

By JJ

August 8, 2008 12:03 AM | Link to this

Rural Georgia Mom

You really make me laugh. It is perfectly clear you have really no idea about math nor math standards. New state standards have nothing to do with the three specific textbook series you mentioned. The HS standards are not integrated - state standards are simply just a list of ideas and procedures you expect students to learn. If you mean by “integrated” the fact that each HS course has algebra, geometry and statistics in it, then that is absolutely true, and that’s the way world’s highest achieving countries’ curriculum are organized, too. US is a minority of countries that have those HS courses separated. Clearly we cannot say that those “integrated” courses cause those high-achievement, but you cannot say “integrated” courses will necessarily result in lower achievement.

I know you think highly of your own kids, but kids who don’t succeed with Everyday Math, etc., probably won’t make that much progress in mathematics.

Mathematics is about helping students to learn to think - think logically, think quantitatively, think proportionally, etc. Memorizing the multiplication table isn’t the essence of math - not that knowing the multiplication table is unimportant, but on the importance scale, knowing facts isn’t quite up there. We want students to think multiplicatively, understand that multiplication isn’t just repeated addition, etc.

I suppose this might be way over your head, and that IS an evidence of how ineffective mathematics education in this state/country has been for a LOOOOOONG time.

By itdoesntmatter

August 8, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this

It doesnt matter about education. Living life is all a matter of luck and timing. I have a MBA and it hasn’t done squat for me. My undergrad hasn’t done squat for me. It’s all who you know, luck, and timing. I’ve been trying to get a job for 7 months. No dice. I dumbed-down my resume and got a call.
The schools can’t win. It’s not the teachings as its the students that don’t care cause the parents don’t care. They’re too busy with grillz and saggin pants to study.
The world has gone to $ h i t.

By James

August 8, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

I teach in a private school and after one year being there, I am convinced that my daughter will go to a private school when she starts in two years. I was long on the fence in the debate between public and private. I am a product of public schools all the way up through my Master’s degree, so I felt a need to defend them. Howeveer, after working in a private school and seeing the difference between the faculty’s attitude there and their counterparts in the public schools, I have been won over. It seems like in private schools we are pro-active in making sure problems don’t exist and in solving ones that do come up quickly. It seems like public schools are always 2 steps behind the problems they face, and a good deal of the teachers (not all) are cynical and only there for the paycheck and the summers off. And unless you live in North Fulton or Fayette County, it is very hard to get an “adequate” public school education. Even Cobb and Gwinnett schools are overcrowded now. Save up your money from your child’s birth and send them to a private school!

By Rural Georgia Mom

August 8, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

JJ- Actually I do know a bit about Math and math education, given my engineering degree from Georgia Tech. I have watched my kids and the kids I tutor struggle, while the admin. and teachers comment on how great the math “experience” is for the kids -as the gifted ones make 40% on the ITBS math computation portion. Educrats answer: Get rid of ITBS and rely on CRCT (where the same kids get perfect math scores). The NEW Georgia HS Math standards are very much “reform math”,as the curriculum spirals and mastery is not expected. Everyday Math and Connected Math are elem. and middle school versions of the integrated math planned for hs. EM and Connected Math are actual curricula, while the “integrated” new HS math will have a variety of curricula, chosen by each school. The new State requirements for HS put the language-arts-minded kids at an advantage, as most topics will be merely “touched on” in theory. The math-minded kids will be left behind.

By new mom

August 8, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

I just had to comment on it doesn’t matter’s post.

I am SO tired of hearing people complain that they aren’t where they want to be, and blaming luck and timing. (And in doing so, discrediting those who are successful by implying that they were just lucky and had good timing.) A solid education is so important—that’s a given. But it’s what you do with it that counts later in life.

My husband is a perfect example of this. He graduated from college with a liberal arts degree 13 years ago, and had never TOUCHED a computer. He worked his way up in various jobs, learning what he could from every one. 10 years ago he started buying programming books and just soaked them up, learning everything he could. We discussed him going ‘back to school’ to get a masters in programming, but he never wanted to, since he could learn it all on his own—and witnessed those with MBAs and other masters degrees not having as much drive as he does (and they seemed arrogant with the degree next to their name!) He has continued to work his way up, and just recently was promoted again. He is near the top of his field now, speaks in conferences, etc., and is to the point where the next step will be for him to start his own company. (which scares me, I like the security of a FT position!) He is able to provide for us and allow me to stay home with our baby daughter, which has always been a goal of ours.

He conducts interviews for his company, and he is constantly disappointed in the lack of knowledge the candidates have. On paper, they say they KNOW a piece of software, but can’t discuss it deeply. Just last week, he had a candidate ask him “You mean you expect someone to know all of this?” He replied to him, “yes, I know it!” He is seeing again that most folks want to just know enough to do a job, but don’t have a drive to really succeed.

When my husband is at home with me and our baby girl, he is all ours—till she goes to bed. Once she’s asleep, he spends several more hours doing what I call ‘work’, but what he enjoys; researching, studying, preparing presentations, basically staying one step ahead. It was what has gotten him to where his is today, and what will continue to set him apart from those who just get an MBA and wait for it to “do” something for them.

By JJ

August 8, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

Rural Georgia Mom

It seems like you are a prime example of how dangerous is a little knowledge is. You only (appear to) know the surface features of the GPS or the actual curricula.

Just because you have a degree from GA Tech doesn’t mean you know much about math nor math ed.

What’s wrong with getting rid of ITBS? I mean haven’t you read all these recent news about students failing the CRCT? Where do YOU get the idea that kids who score 40% on ITBS scors perfect on CRCT?

Pleas keep it up - I definitely can use much comic relief.

By concerned

August 8, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this

JJ,
You must be one of those educrats up in the ivory tower. I assure you that this latest bandaid bandwagon in math will go the way of whole language.

By jj

August 9, 2008 7:18 AM | Link to this

You guys just don’t understand.

The GPS and any specific curriculum (such as Everyday Math) are two different things. In fact, if anything, ED or other “reform” curricula don’t align too well with the GPS, including at HS.

HS standards are not integrated in the same sense as those reform curricula are. HS courses are just different packages of (mostly) the same topic. Most, if not all, of those countries who outperform the US students on international studies do use such “integrated” curriculula.

The GPS was informed by the 1989 Japanese standards, and there are very strong alignment between those two documents.

I think there is definitely a strong possibility that the GPS will go down the same path as many other education reform efforts, and that’s a huge part of the reasons why US schools just don’t improve systematically. Too many people are just for the status quo or chasing after the “good old days” that NEVER existed. We all know that school boards are filled with rather inept people, but they are also influenced by those few loud mouths who keep repeating some mantras without really knowing what they are saying, liken concerned or Rural Georgia Mom. It’s just too bad.

By lynn d

August 10, 2008 1:36 PM | Link to this

JJ

At our school, we have students passing the CRCT who score below the 20th percentile on the ITBS. More than a dozen as a matter of fact.

Go meet with any special ed attorney or advocate in the state and they can give you example after example of students passing the CRCT who cannot read.

Getting rid of the ITBS is a huge problem… huge. Georgians will be left in the dark about how our students compare nationally.

By jj

August 10, 2008 2:11 PM | Link to this

I really don’t care which test they eliminate - I think we are spending too much of precious school time on testing.

Did anyone at your school fail CRCT even though they scored decent (whatever that might be) on ITBS?

I think a test like ITBS has its own usefulness, but the percentile score doesn’t necessarily mean much BECAUSE they are simply comparisons. There will ALWAYS be someone who scores at 20th percentile.

As far as passing/failing CRCT, I sure hope that students’ grades match up with their performance on the test. We hear so many parents complaining about their kids passing the courses but failing the tests. They should really check with their teachers what they were teaching and how they were assessing students’ learning.

By jim d

August 11, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

adequate has to be relevant and adapted to suit the needs of each individual child.

Teaching methods, attitudes and environment must be adapted to correspond to the children’s varying stages of development and must respect their integrity and individual abilities.

I dare say that there isn’t a public school in the country capable of doing so. Well maybe capable but damn sure not willing!