Get Schooled

By Sherman Dorn

July 25, 2008 8:58 AM | Link to this

I can’t believe that you’re writing about this issue without referring to the relevant 1943 Supreme Court decision, West Virginia Bd. of Ed. v. Barnette (1943).

By WFC

July 25, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

Who cares? Rote recitations are meaningless. You can’t dictate what is in someone’s heart.

By jim d

July 25, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

A little flag history.

Origionally penned; “I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands- one nation indivisible-with liberty and justice for all.”

On September 8,1892, the Boston based “The Youth’s Companion” magazine published a few words for students to repeat on Columbus Day that year. Written by Francis Bellamy,the circulation manager and native of Rome, New York, and reprinted on thousands of leaflets, was sent out to public schools across the country. On October 12, 1892, the quadricentennial of Columbus’ arrival, more than 12 million children recited the Pledge of Allegiance, thus beginning a required school-day ritual.

It was not until 1942 that Congress officially recognized the Pledge of Allegiance. One year later, in June 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite it. In fact,today only half of our fifty states have laws that encourage the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom!

Does it bother me for someone to refuse to particpate in the pledge? A little.

However, when one recollects the symbolisim of the flag itself we then without any reservation must accept that forcing anyone to swear an allegiance to it, violates the very principals for which it stands.

By Old School

July 25, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

Our school has the pledge, National Anthem, and a moment of silence at the beginning of every school day. I ask my students to stand respectfully for this. Whether they recite the pledge or not is entirely up to them. I personally face the flag, place my hand over my heart and recite. When questioned (and someone always asks) I simply tell them that when I do so, I’m remembering my late father who was a B-25 Mitchell tail gunner during WWII, his Marine sister, Army brother, and I’m honoring his Navy brother as well as my mom’s siblings who served honorably. I tell them I’m also honoring all service men and women throughout the generations and that I am humbled to be able to do so.

Some of my students say the pledge. All of my students are silent and respectful. None are required to do any of this and they know I appreciate their respect.

By Ernest

July 25, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

Thanks to Sherman Dorn and JimD for providing insightful, historical background on this topic! I agree that making students recite the pledge compulsory is akin to what Hilter did to the youth in Germany.

By thomas

July 25, 2008 10:43 AM | Link to this

Ok people, let’s get this straight— you are in the Deep South. This place is extremely conservative and generally intolerant. Not standing for the pledge or saluting the flag is seen by many as unpatriotic and disrespectful.

What you may or may not understand it that your southern neighbors really don’t give a d_mn about other people’s personal beliefs. In fact, they don’t really care anything about you. What they do care about is the flag and what is stands for. When people, young or old, don’t stand for the pledge, it offends some people. You may not actually recite the pledge, but you have to stand. If you don’t you invite trouble. If you don’t believe me, don’t do it and see what happens.

I know many of you guys may call yourselves enlightened, reasonable, rational, openminded, and tolerant, but many of your neighbors are not. Your child’s teachers and administrators are your neighbors. And if even if they are not offended by someone not saluting the flag, they are afraid of “having a problem” (somebody else, like another parent or staff member, complaining a student not standing for the pledge).

Personally I prefer all students stand and salute the flag during the Pledge of Allegiance. I also insist on silence during the Moment of Silence. But if that day comes when I have a student refuse to stand for the pledge, I guess I will have to let them sit. I am fortunate that those days are past me now and I don’t have to worry about the daily pledge with a class of students.

But the key is that I am tolerant enough to accept with a student who chooses not to stand for personal/religious/political reasons. It is not a personal insult to me. If I got offended at everything somebody believed, I would be angry all day. I get offended when I am personally disrespected. Sitting silently during the pledge, if the student has a real reason for not saluting the flag, is not cause to me to blow my top or lose a night’s sleep.

By jim d

July 25, 2008 10:50 AM | Link to this

Ernest,

Being involved in Scouting affords me the opportunity to share with young men proper flag etiquette and to work with them in forming color guards that have been invited to attend many ceromonies and parades.

So, let me just say that what troubles me more than people not participating is stopping at a post office or other governmental building which is flying a flag that is either torn, tattered or filthy. Watching employees of these agencies charged with the daily ritual of raising and retiring the flag just throwing in a heap on a floor or table somewhere.

I’m offended when I see a 60’ flag flying for commercial purposes at grocery stores and car dealerships, when I see an old flag thrown in the trash rather than being retired properly or when our flag is removed from a consulate and burned. But I become enraged when I see photo ops of the president standing on an image of the US Flag or when I observe him wearing a service lapel button.

So while I whole heartedly believe in ones right not to pledge to the nations flag, I take issue with schools not insisting everyone at least be instructed in flag etiquette.

US FLAG CODE

Down off my soap box, y’all have a good day.

By catlady

July 25, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

I have some students who are JW and do not do the pledge. That is okay. All students can stand or sit quietly when it is done, IMHO. Participate or not, but stand or sit quietly.

When my elder daughter was in high school in Athens there were band members who not only refused to stand, they wanted to talk and goof around loudly during the National Anthem at away games. I gave my opinion, to the band director and principal, that if they could not be quiet they should be removed from the band, because they were not making a good representation for their school. Just like if they had been engaged in some other activities that were detrimental to their school’s reputation. The administrators refused, saying it would look as if they were being racist, and that students had the right to free expression. In my mind, standing or not standing was free expression, but they should have been required to shut up for the 2 minutes it took to do the anthem.

By thomas

July 25, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

Oh by the way,

What about the Code of Silence (my little term for the “Moment of Silence”)? That is the thing the Georgia conservatives threw in a few years ago as their little devious attempt to reintroduce MANDATORY prayer in schools.

What the problem I have is that some people INSIST on forcing their beliefs and values on other people. In my opinion it is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. That is one of the few things I detest about us as Americans- our arrogance and disregard for other people. We want things our way or the highway.

I see it like this— I think all of us should practice Ramadan and fast. I think our children should participate in Bar Mitzvahs at age 12. I think our girls should have Quinceaneras at 15 (that the Mexican rite of passage celebration). What? You don’t agree? That isn’t part of your cultural or religious beliefs? Now how you feel about mandating that everybody pray at a prescribed time? Kinda of backwards isn’t it? But only a person who doesn’t respect the rights, freedom, and liberty of others would be so bold as to say that all people must “pray” on cue.

Besides I think prayer is a private thing anyway. The only people who insist on mandatory public prayer are the ones who have something to prove OR A STATEMENT (POLITICAL OR SOCIAL) TO MAKE.

By jim d

July 25, 2008 11:15 AM | Link to this

Now ya went and done it Thomas,

We will soon be flooded with right wingers swearing that prayer was removed from schools and that students are prohibited from praying in school.

OH MY!! :-)

By Lily Toad

July 25, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

The US is one of the few countries that even have a pledge of allegiance. Unless one is in the Armed Forces, there is no reason to recite such a pledge.

By em

July 25, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

Since I teach U.S. History and American Government, this topic is a tough one because I feel the same as Old School but know what Jim D said is true. Unfortunately, I think that since our students recite the pledge every single morning, it has become rote; therefore, it has lost much of its meaning. Maybe recitation of the pledge should be reserved for special occasions as is the national anthem in order to restore some of the meaning and symbolism. As conservative as I am, forced patriotism in a free society seems contradictory. For now, I follow Old School’s lead.

By SET

July 25, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

Lily Toad: Your position on the Pledge of allegiance is terminally foolish. It shows a complete understanding of what it means to be, and to keep a nation. Your position is however common among liberals who really think anything goes and There Is Such A Thing As A Free Lunch.

Brave New World.

By catlady

July 25, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Lily, teachers have to sign a pledge to”support the Constitution of the US and the constitution of Ga.”

By Old School

July 25, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

thomas, the statement that is read at our school for the moment of silence is: “Let’s pause for a moment of silence to reflect upon the anticipated activities of the day.”

If any of my students question having to be silent, I simply tell them it’s the calm before the storm and that like dealing with their friends, sometimes a moment to stop and think can keep them from doing or saying something hurtful.

I look at the moment of silence as a quick look at my personal organizer. It gets me ready for the next step. I just don’t MAKE any of my students say the pledge or put hands over hearts. I just think everyone benefits from a bit of silence and calm now and then. The whole deal just isn’t an issue with me.

By Gwinnett Educator

July 25, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

I currently teach 1st grade and the students say it every morning …and quite loud. At this age, they don’t question it..it’s just done. I say it on some days..but I always stand up and require my students to do so. For the moment of silence, I tell me students to reflect on the kind of day that they want to have. I tell them to think about good things, etc.

In the past, I’ve only had one JW in my class and their child was very well behaved. He would stand quietly (as his parents taught him) and that was all. The parents were very respectful and so was he.

By jim d

July 25, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

One other pledge bet peave, that really gets under my skin. Someone please note the punctuation and bring it to the attention of whoever leads the pledge at your school.

OK all you LA teachers is there a comma between **nation and Under”? No? then why does everyone recite it as if there were? If we are going to teach it let’s at least teach it right!

“I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America,

and to the republic for which it stands,

one nation under God,

indivisible,

with liberty and justice for all.”

By gttim

July 25, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

I find it hilarious that conservatives get all hot and bothered about reciting the pledge and then do this.

I do not say the pledge. It is not that I do not love my country, it is that I do not like false patriotism, which I find many of these little ceremonies to be. If you love your country, you try to make it better. Saying a pledge or putting a ribbon on your car does not do a thing to make it better.

By Stacey

July 25, 2008 2:12 PM | Link to this

Thomas…Your post sounds so much like my husband that if this was your first post, I would swear you’re him. I agree with (most of) what you said but your post would bring tears to his eyes and he might hug your neck. :-) When my son came home for Kindergarten excitedly “teaching” us “The Pledge of Allegiance”, my husband asked him what do the words “pledge” and “allegiance” mean. Of course he had no idea so my husband explained it to him. Afterwards, my son was very proud to both recite and understand the meaning behind it. Only then did my husband (who does say it) give him his blessing to say it.

Jimd…You sound like my 11th grade American History teacher. We had to recite (or sing) the pledge and the national anthem (just once) for a grade. He recited both and pointed out the errors that most people most often make and warned us that he would deduct 10 points for those errors. Over half the class still got it wrong! I admit that until he pointed it out, I also said it wrong but since then I say it correctly.

By JackiO

July 25, 2008 4:49 PM | Link to this

Don’t know if this is correct, but I recently read that the USA is the only democratic nation that even has a pledge. It is only common in countries with governments that do not involve the citizenry in the making if decisions. Anyone know if that’s true?

By Lee

July 25, 2008 5:58 PM | Link to this

…and to the republic for which it stands,

The founding fathers gave us a Republic. Abraham Lincoln destroyed it.

By Ernest

July 25, 2008 6:51 PM | Link to this

Not to get into a ‘Constitutional’ argument with you Lee, but could you say that Lincoln’s objective was to ensure ‘domestic tranquility’ with his actions?

By Lee

July 25, 2008 7:10 PM | Link to this

So, Ernest. What part of New Jersey you from? :-)

By Larry

July 25, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

The partial reversal by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals dealt with Constitutional issues when a student’s position conflicts with that of the student’s parents, NOT school policy.

It is clearly unconstitutional for any public school to require a student to recite – and now stand for – the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance.

By ironmaiden

July 25, 2008 8:22 PM | Link to this

As a teacher, I am disgusted at the way this govt continues to violate The Constitution and refuses to serve the interests of its citizens. I will stand in respect for my husband’s Viet Nam service, and the HS classmates who died there. But I cannot verbally pledge to support a facist corporatocracy, and I will not require my students to do so.

By HB

July 28, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

My first school system stopped reciting the pledge daily after elementary school. In jr high and high school, it was recited at occasional assemblies, and everyone stood and behaved respectfully, and most recited it.

My second high school recited the pledge EVERY morning, and I think to most students it reached the point of feeling meaningless. Most students were quiet, but few bothered to stand, and fewer still recited it. To me it seemed like overkill and actually felt disrespectful to the flag to water down the pledge to such a robotic daily task.

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