Get Schooled

By happy2teach

July 22, 2008 8:09 AM | Link to this

No!!! The schools need to change the ways they spend money. Get rid of the superfluous staff, aggressively cull an excellent faculty, carefully consider “short-term” expenditures, and most of all, take a good, hard look in the mirror.

By get over it

July 22, 2008 8:20 AM | Link to this

There are 4 things that can fix our schools. (1) Administration that LISTENS to concerns of all involved. (2) Teachers that really want to help kids succeed and not just get a paycheck. (3) Parents that actually parent instead of expecting schools to do it for them. (4) Kids that give a damn and take responsibility for their own lives.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 8:25 AM | Link to this

I could write a book on this one, but suffice it to say, when everyone is taxed the same, then and only then would it be appropriate to reconfigure the distrubition formulas.

We have counties that place higher values on education such as Gwinnett and Cobb who have taxed themselves to help fund education. Then we have counties in S. Ga., that refuse to charge a similar millage rate to pay for education, who are now crying foul.

HORSEFEATHER!!! this smacks of socialisim. Perhaps the folks in S. Ga. need to relocate to the other Georgia.(know what I mean?)

By thomas

July 22, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

Can money fix schools? NO. We have all the money we need right now.

Case closed.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

As Scary as this may sound, I find myself agreeing with Napoalvin on this one.

By thomas

July 22, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

What I don’t understand is why someone would expect a 5 year old to “give a damn and take responsibility for their own lives.”

Get over it? Why the arrogance? That is one of the BIGGEST problems I see in schools today- arrogant, pompous, self-righteous people who don’t seem to understand that they are in the people business. Every small fry peon wants to walk around with an attitude and put down other people who don’t fit into their mold or scheme of things. This is what you really should say- “Because I can’t build relationships or a rapport with students or adjust my teaching style or classroom management to meet the needs of the students, I must now blame them for my shortcomings.”

I am going to steal Laura’s thunder today. Here is the question that will really get people talking. Should beating, I meant “paddling” be allowed in schools? Twiggs County voted to allow elementary students to be whipped “if the parents sign a permission form.”

I’ll tell you this much- that whole permission slip form is going to eliminate the paddling. Very few parents are going to give permission for the principal to spank their child.

I am listening to a very interesting discussion on the radio about this right now. A caller brought up the racial aspect of it. Some people are not going to want “white teachers spanking balck children.” I am somewhat isolated from this component of the discussion. But from what I hear and understand, there is some animosity and “issues” in some communities in which the schools are mostly black and the staff is white. Some parents already think that the school is unfair.

Think about it. If people are having “issues” at the schools already, how are they going to give the school permission to “paddle”? Then, for argument’s sake, think about the flip side of the issue- “white teachers beating black children.”

I love this topic. We could debate this all day. I love emotion laden topics like this— stirs people up.

By thomas

July 22, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

Oh, by the way, some parents say they are afraid to spank their own kids because they think DFACS will come after them.

By happy2teach

July 22, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

Thomas- LOVE the first part of your last post. It cracks me up that we should demand accountability from 6 year olds or wash our hands of kids because their parents are losers.

As for paddling…Do some kids need it? Sure. Do I trust administrators or teachers to do it? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

By the middle road

July 22, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

“What I don’t understand is why someone would expect a 5 year old to “give a damn and take responsibility for their own lives.”

Its called taking ownership of their education, something our kids in Georgia suck at.

By david

July 22, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

YES. Money CAN fix schools. I don’t know who are to say it does, but I teach 7th grade and I absolutely think it can help. Just by paying teachers more (and maybe specifically paying teachers more money to teach in struggling schools) schools could recruit better people into the teaching field which can greatly improve student achievement.

The money doesn’t need to be spent on lcd projectors and smart boards, because students can learn just fine with pen and paper. But the staff needs to earn more and it’s time someone realized that.

I worked in the legal field for 3 years before I decided to become a teacher. I was a paralegal, and all I did was sit in front of a desk every day doing the same thing…it took no skill. I made $2000 more a year than I do with my masters in education as a teacher.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

Thomas,

This statement really makes one think. Most of the system’s misbehavior comes from middle schoolers, said Levi Rozier, Twiggs County’s campus police chief

A friend has pointed out that spanking teenage girls falls directly into a category that has nothing to do with education. I can’t help but wonder what type of perverts may be applying for the job of chief of discipline?

By happy2teach

July 22, 2008 9:22 AM | Link to this

middle road- Have you met any 5 year olds?

By Lisa B.

July 22, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

I work in a rural South Georgia county. We DO raise the millege rate, however, one can only get so much tax revenue from mobile homes and the Dollar General and Subway. We have no shopping malls or industries to tax. We don’t even have a WalMart.

One way I think additional money could improve education is to create more options. Not all children are successful in our current “one size fits all” education system. Over the years I’ve read about very successful programs for troubled youth that involve alternative teaching methods, small groups, lots of counseling, etc. The programs usually end due to lack of funding, despite their success. When students’ needs are met, everyone wins. Classroom disruptions are minimized, teaching time is maximized, and student achievement increases. I don’t understand why we continually try to force all students into the same mold. We know from experience it doesn’t work. Some students bring so much baggage from home that they can’t make it in a regular classroom. Instead of addressing those needs in some other type of environment, schools send those students to ISS, repeatedly suspend them, kick them out, etc. We all know what the future holds for people lacking education.

I would spend money on GOOD alternative programs (i.e., NOT warehouses). It is less expensive in the long run than prison.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

So Dave,

You really believe that by paying more one attracks a better qualified applicant?

Now that’s what I call a sense of humor.

I’ve been in business for 40 years and will assure you that offering more money only attracks MORE applicants.

By Dr. Craig Spinks

July 22, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

Money doesn’t solve problems. People who are caring, hard-working, informed, courageous and smart solve problems. We don’t need more money to solve our state’s/nation’s educational problems. We need more CHICS.

By Lisa B.

July 22, 2008 9:30 AM | Link to this

Thomas, I know of several South Georgia school systems that paddle students. In fact, in one nearby county, TEACHERS still paddle kids. I work in a system that paddles. Now, I will say, there is no point in paddling the same kid over and over. It either works or it doesn’t. Some kids make a complete turnaround as a result of paddling. Typically these are kids who haven’t had much experience with corporal punishment. Other kids are so accustomed to harsh treatment that no amount of paddled impacts their behavior. I see no point in paddling kids over and over. If it works, the situation is resolved. If it doesn’t work, find something else.

By SallyB

July 22, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

Thomas, while I many times agree with your posts on this blog, I really have quite mixed feelings about your statement regaring arrogance …

“Because I can’t build relationships or a rapport with students or adjust my teaching style or classroom management to meet the needs of the student I must now blame them…”

. In early elementary grades, I can agree. However, it seems to me that part of the teacher’s job is to facilitate a transition from the teacher adjusting to the student, to the student adjusting to the teacher. I have often thought that one of the major reasons for the difficulties in middle school and the high drop out rate in 9th grade [and above] is because students have not been able to adjust to the teaching styles [and there are many, many good ones] of 6 different teachers. When the actual instruction in a subject area takes center stage, adjusting one’s “learning style” must be the responsibility of the STUDENT.

By Jennifer

July 22, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

Of course rural schools need more money. If metro districts are suffering, can you imagine what is going on in the rural communities ?

Education is the only vehicle for sustaining or improving economic conditions - and it is an obligation of our state to make sure that each child, regardless of geographic location, race, or gender, has a shot at achieving their potential through education.

Maybe the lawmakers can take a portion of the prison industry funds and move it into education. Novel idea.

By Ernest

July 22, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

Looking at it strictly from an academic sense, there is probably enough money being spent. IMO, part of the issue is funding to support many of the ‘social ills’ in our communities.

Keeping in real, it probably does not cost ‘as much’ to educate a middle income children from a 2 parent household, especially when the parents are engaged with the education process. We’ve got a LOT of children that come from some combination of a lower ‘socioeconomic status, single head of household, or guardianship households, where anecdotally may not be ‘as engaged’ in the education process. Throw in a growing population of ‘special needs’ children, that required more resources to educate and you have the kinds of budgets we do today. I don’t mean to paint a ‘broad bush’ but simply look at the student makeup in many of our schools today.

An interesting remedy a MS in DeKalb has recently offered. It requested a waiver for its gifted classes to be larger than what the state allows (up to 21 per class). In return for larger classes for this group, they will reduce the sizes of classes for students that need additional assistance. The good part is, it should not cost additional dollars to implement this.

I mentioned before my wife has taught special ed for over 25 years in ES. There are a LOT of ‘needy’ students in our schools today. That is part of the reason we have so many psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, and others like that in our schools today. Everyone rants about the need to cut back on central office staff however I wonder if we eliminate some of the ‘non instructional’ positions such as those I just mentioned, what would happen to those children? What if they were mainstreamed into the ‘regular ed’ classes with our children?

I see the metro school systems taxing themselves more partly because of the higher cost of living but also because of the diverse needs of their citizenry. At the same time, metro systems are ‘attractive’ to others in lower income areas of the state because of the cafeteria style’ services they offer to students. IMO as the challenges we are facing during these tough economic times go longer, I believe we will see a continued ‘shift’ in population from lower income counties to higher income counties.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

Actually Lisa,

My research indicates if these jurisdictions are so constrained by the lower tax bases and miserly state funding then one would expect them to have higher millage rates. Guess what? THEY DON’T! Millage rates are nearly a mill lower on average in the lawsuit counties than in the non-lawsuit counties; this difference is statistically significant at the 5% level. Moreover, one might expect to find many of these poor counties at or near the state limit of 20 mills of property tax for education funding. Guess what? THEY AREN’T. Only 1 of the 51 lawsuit school systems has a millage rate above 17 mills (Lanier county at 17.09 mills). Hence, the premise that state funding and meager tax bases cause the lawsuit counties to have higher millage rates just isn’t true. And, to the extent that schools are inadequately funded in the lawsuit counties, the citizens of those jurisdictions and their elected leaders bear at least as much responsibility as the state legislature. If schools in the 51 lawsuit systems are poorly funded, it’s a political decision of those jurisdictions.

The notion of “inadequate funding” is pretty dicey. For example, the simple correlation between per pupil spending and a measure of student performance on Georgia’s standardized test is -0.25.

Yup, more money is correlated with lower scores—higher spending districts don’t seem to give taxpayers and students much return on their tax dollars.

Of course, the ultimate way to equalize spending is to provide a flat per pupil voucher … But then that just stirs another hornets nest.

By Leah

July 22, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

get over it - I couldn’t have said it any better!

jim d - I agree with you this time too! (Sorry, I cannot let this go - it is attracts, not attracks)

By Moving back for better schools

July 22, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

Yes - money makes a huge difference. Georgia does not spend enough per child on education. Taxes need to be raised and then taxpayers can demand that this dismal education system be fixed.

Our family moved here several years ago from the Northeast and we are moving back because our kids education is more imporatant to us. We now realize that it was a huge mistake to move here. Our childrens education has suffered.

There are so many moving here for cheaper living and better weather - and it is NOT worth it. You basically GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Our house here sold quickly. My kids are already working with teachers to get them up to speed, so to speak, with their classmates. I actually look forward to paying higher taxes, because our school system WILL listen to us because we DEMAND it.

By Out of choices

July 22, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

As a parent of a child that graduated last year (and the last one out of the house)I see it this way. Most of the trouble started when we approached education with the attitude that everyone was “entitled to an education.” That is when the public was held up by the school boards by utilizing their ability to tax separate from the county governments and also tax persons in the county that did not have children being educated. The Federal and State governments need to get out of the education business and leave it up to the local school boards, as they are more responsive to the local taxpayers. They have to be responsive if they want to be reelected. Next we need to give the teachers more freedom in the classroom. They are the professionals that see the students on a daily basis..not the principal, not the asst. principals, not the coaches, not the lunchroom ladies, not the counselors and definitely not any non-academic personnel. When ever did we become responsible for the students mental health? When something bad happens why do the schools send in “grief counselors???”. Bad things happen everyday…deal with it but don’t expect me to pay some over educated idiot to come in so everyone can feel sorry for each other in a group…what a waste of money. It is programs like these that have made today’s young adults so spineless that they cannot stand on their own and must be in therapy to survive their pathetic lives. Local control…..that is the answer.Just take the amount of your Federal and State taxes that are spent on education, return that money to the local school boards and let them decide how to spend it. If you end up with a situation like Clayton County then the local taxpayers will have to deal with it on a local basis.

By Lee

July 22, 2008 10:10 AM | Link to this

As a non-Georgian, I say you need to cut your school funding even more. With the number of immigrants coming to America going down, we need your children to mop our floors, pick our tomatoes, and cook our french fries at McD’s. Too many children in our other states are getting a good education and good jobs and living in prosperity and happiness- we need more fools from Georgia that we can boss around, and are good at taking orders and believing whatever we tell ‘em! So, yes, install Creation Science instead of science! Nothing above arithmetic! Take away all books except those that teach kids how to obey written instructions from their superiors! Teach them that if they are the wrong color or on the wrong address, that they can expect less in life, and teach them not to ever protest against that! We need those kinds of Georgia-educated kids to order around in Afghanistan, where they will be well educated in comparison. You certainly won’t find my kids there, unless they are the officers or the contractors who can keep your kids between them and the enemy. Please Georgia, keep your kids in ignorance and darkness. No Art! No music! No foreign languages! Starve your schools, increase your class sizes, censor your libraries, kill your science programs, and turn out the hardest workin’ boys and girls in America! That’s something you can strive for, and it will make you proud that your kids won’t ever try to be better than their parents are or were! After all, that’s what you really want, isn’t it?

By jim d

July 22, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this

Leah,

Yeah—thats what hapens when i post without reeding what I rote. :-)

By Old School

July 22, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

What if we could call for a moratorium on cures-du-jour, the latest research based fixit programs, pointless staff development, etc. and simply let teachers teach for a few years. I dare say most administrators (save the newbies) KNOW where the weakest teachers are and could focus on helping them improve. Likewise a tougher stance on discipline would help as would a very hard look at class size could make a huge difference (see Ernest’s 9:42 post).

Take a realistic look at elementary school curriculum and get back to basics so kids can learn that reading can be pleasurable, math needs some memorization of basics to provide a solid foundation, and running around outside is good for the soul AND the classroom. Develop sensible middle school programs and reinforce the basics, provide ample time for a variety of physical activities (they still need it too!) and build on that solid elementary school base. If you feel the need to add extras, how about life skills, manners, social responsibility, fine arts, and guided research.

High school should benefit from having prepared students walking through the doors for the first time. Let them walk into classrooms with highly motivated, supported, and knowledgeable instructors who have the best basic materials, a solid grip on the subject, and the security of backup when they need it- be it discipline, encouragement, information, suggestions.

Make sure there are options for the students and guidance to help them make sound choices. Hook the academics to the real world so what the students are asked or required to do MAKES SENSE and their learning piques their curiosity. Require them to prove they’ve “got it” by graduation time whether “it” is subject matter, skills, communication, or the ability to take care of themselves.

Honestly, I don’t think most of my suggestions would cost very much if anything at all. One of the biggest things in my book is MBWA (management by walking around). It works in the classroom and it will work for the administration. I hate it when we all catch he-double hockey sticks for the actions/inactions of a few. If the admins are in and out of classrooms (minus the notepad) frequently, they’ll know the weak links and can zero in on them. The good/great teachers can just continue doing what they do best: teaching.

But alas! It will never happen because somebody somewhere needs to make a pile of money selling his/her research-based, glow-in-the-dark, cure-all because it worked for him/her (oh to teach in THAT perfect world…or am I Wong to the Max?) and school systems have the need to seize and implement because it’s easier to spend money and time (gotta hire those subs so teachers can leave the classrooms for days at a time!) than to just let us teach.

Sorry for the long diatribe. I probably didn’t write to the question anyway…

…but I feel better now.

By Lisa B.

July 22, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

Jim D, I do believe that the school systems in the lawsuit for equitable funding should be taxing 20 mils locally. Before asking for money from others, counties should pay their fair share for education. My point is that even if we increase the local millege rate from 16 to 20 mils, the revenue increases will be small. Of course, that doesn’t mean the rate shouldn’t be increased.

By momforeducation

July 22, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this

I am really torn on this issue. I moved to KS in 2005 and that state distributes state funds to the different counties based on need (financial) and certain formulas (i.e., the rural county may get $10k per child vs. $2K per child in an large city area). In GA terms, Cobb County may get $2k/child from the state vs. Houston County that would get $10K/child Now, the large city school district will pull the additional funds needed through local tax revenues, etc. where the rural county doesn’t the larger tax revenue.

Now, this method works b/c you have a child who is born in a rural area with the same access to a great education as the city child. This includes teachers making about the same salaries, counselors, coaches, equipment, books, etc. Every child in the state at least gets the same starting point.

A lot of “city” parents in the area I lived in were not happy with that arrangement. They wanted all of their money to stay in the area. I felt alittle different. The state of KS has great schools, all kids have an equal chance of success no matter where you were born. KS isn’t at the bottom of the SAT scale. GA is.

There must be another way.

By Lisa B.

July 22, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

Go Lee!

We spend all this money on the latest cure d’jours, rewrite curriculum, decrease rigor, increase rigor, inflate grade, deflate grades, reduce class sizes, increase class sizes, but our NAEP, ITBS and SAT scores barely fluctuate. Our CRCT and EOCT score improve, because we’ve gotten much better at “teaching the test.” However, we haven’t had much gain in national test scores. Sigh.

By the middle road

July 22, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

happy2teach-its not 5 year olds that are wrecking public education. Walk into any public middle school or high school and you will see what I mean. Quit trying to set up a straw man.

By catlady

July 22, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

I agree with Jim on the taxation thing. My county school board taxes at a relatively low rate—nowhere near 20 mils. Yet we are a part of that group suing for a bigger piece of the pie. No, we don’t have the same tax base. We have a high number of mobile homes, elderly folks, and those living off “transfer payments” (S. S. and welfare, for example) But we SHOULD DO FOR OURSELVES BEFORE WE EXPECT ANY HELP. Or shut up.

It will be interesting to see what happens soon in my county. There was a very large, aggressive (to use a polite word) reassessment that has more than doubled the “worth” of property. Will the system cut the millage rate in half? When pigs fly. But the money will go to more supervisory staff, more CO leeches that need to be rewarded.

I think in our county we could get more breathing room if we used our county portion of the money more wisely. Less administrators, less support staff, and certainly less academic “coaches”. County-, state-, and country-wide, if we quit trying to do other people’s jobs, and instead focused on delivering instruction to willing learners.

By Ernest

July 22, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

momforeducation, I’ve heard what’s done in Kansas and other states as the ‘Robin Hood’ method of funding. I know folks in Texas that live in somewhat affluent areas complain about the same thing.

Not sure how the lawsuit will turn out but IF the small school succeed, there should be a caveat that they must be at the maximum millage rate before receiving additional funds from the state.

Just to throw something else out for consideration, is where would we get this money. Anyone in favor of ‘off shore drilling’ with a portion of those proceeds coming to the state? It could go a long ways towards helping with economic development in the state along with providing another revenue stream. If this were positioned in lieu of a cross the board tax increase, we might find more takers on this.

By thomas

July 22, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

To save myself from writing a long explanation, let me just say this—

I have quite a bit of experience in education, from the classroom to the Central Office. I have worked in Title I schools and well-to-do schools. When we talk about education in the metro Atlanta, we are talking about school systems with A LOT OF MONEY. I couldn’t begin to tell you have much Federal, state, and local monies these schools have.

Even the so-called “poor” schools have a barrel load of money. I remember going to an elementary school that had just received the Reading First grant. One of the lead teachers told me that the school received $100,000 just to spend on books. She told me that she couldn’t spend $100,000 on books. I went into a vacant classroom that was filled with boxes from Scholastic and other vendors.

Take a look at this DOE website: http://public.doe.k12.ga.us/ReportingFW.aspx?PageReq=211&PID=61&PTID=67&CTID=217&SchoolId=ALL&T=0&RID=104

Pick a school and look under Title I reports. If the school is a Title I school, you can see how much Title I money they got from the Federal government last year. Schools getting 175, 200, $250,000 a year. Forget about grant money. These schools are getting big bucks in just Federal funds (Title I, SPED, ESOL, Title II, etc.).

And school systems and sickening principals get to spend this money how they see fit. I know of a principal who went with her employee friends on a out-of-state trip under the guise of going to a conference. She and her buddies spent thousands in Title I money on trinkets and trips.

Schools have plenty of money!!! And as for teacher pay, teachers in Georgia are the highest paid in the southeast!!! Our first year teachers get paid more than 5 year teachers with masters degrees in New Mexico, Arizona, South Dakota, etc. I am not dying to go to Washington State or Oregon or Iowa. The only places in this country that pay more than Georgia are the Northeast (NY, NJ, Conn, etc.). Alabama had education cutbacks a few years ago. Thousands and thousands and thousands of Alabama teachers flocked to Georgia for jobs. Class sizes in Florida are astronomical. First grade classes with 33 kids.

We do a lot better than many other states when it comes to school funding. Just think, next week teachers will receive a $100 VISA card courtesy of the state. Where else can you get a perk like that? Thanks Sonny!!! I voted for him last time and would vote for him again if I could.

By momforeducation

July 22, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

Ernest, i am not sure how the counties that receive lower state funding make up the difference. However, it is working somehow. Local property taxes, county sale taxes, etc. I do know that when I moved to KS, I wasn’t that worried about where we would live b/c a lot of the school districts were great! Yes, there are the inner city schools who are in trouble, but that problem exists everywhere. Now, I do know that we had to pay a book fee of approx. $100 or so for each child. The amount differed on the grade. I called it a book rental fee. Also, free busing was provided for those kids who lived outside of 2.5 miles from the school (or if a child would have to cross a bridge). Those within 2.5 miles had to pay a bus fee of $79/semester and only if it was approved (meaning a community would gather together and seek busing). Now, there are a lot of neighborhood schools there unlike here. Most of the elementary kids walked. That was a great sight to see. Also, the PTSA’s were able to raise a lot of money for each school.

It is duable.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

Well Thomas,

We can look at that as a bit of good news and a bit of bad news.

The good news is that teachers can in fact be bought. The bad news is that they set such a low value on themselves.

By Political Mongrel

July 22, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

Money may not cure schools’ problems, but poverty certainly won’t.

By MrLiberty

July 22, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

So “Moving Back for Better Schools” says that you “GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR”

How true, how true. And one thing is for darn sure, Moving Back doesn’t pay SQUAT.

First lets get some basics out of the way. On average, private schools charge/spend 1/2 of what government schools do per pupil and homeschoolers spend less than 1/10th and both do a better job of educating them on average, by any standard. So no, more money is not the answer. Yes, private schools get to pick and choose. Why do you hate your children so much that you would subject them to a system that cannot educate them properly because they cannot get rid of those who do not wish to participate or learn? The government schools only exist because you continue to support them.

Next basic. Regardless of your millage rate, you are paying less than $2000 a year for school taxes. The state spends over $7000 per pupil for the inferior product they deliver. This means that the rest of society (including those paying for private school, must make up that $5000 + difference for your child to attand school. That’s $5000+ for child one, and another $7000+ for every child after that. It doesn’t matter if they have no kids, 5 kids in private school, or are elderly and have already put 5 through private school - they pay (yes, there are some senior exemptions). In addition to taxes in that form, businesses pay taxes on their property and then pass those costs onto unwitting consumers. Then there is a portion that comes from income taxes. Wealthier folks may be able to afford private school, but they must also pay for government and must pay higher income tax to make up the difference. There is no “government money” that isn’t stolen through taxation. The school system is implicitly based and founded on the immoral principle that it is ok to steal from some to pay for the daycare of others.

If I have a car, I don’t expect others to pay for my gas, or the cost of repairs. If I have a dog, I certainly don’t go to my neighbor’s house with a gun and demand that they help me pay for the food for the dog. Even if I were to use the excuse that the neighbor is benefitting from the good watchdog in the neighborhood there is little chance that such a story would fly. To take their money would be theft nonetheless.

But apparently if I get the state to come to my neighbor’s house with a gun on behalf of my kids education, then that is perfectly fine. Violating the 8th commandment as the basis of an educational system seems like something doomed to failure - and just look.

The only way more money will fix this system is for the parents to pay more money ( all the costs in fact) for educating their kids. Only then will they and their children ever really care about the quality of the system, the cost, or the contribution by the child. When something is “free” then it has no value. The effect of this relationship is insidious but undeniable. Society has no responsibility to raise YOUR child. The Government is the least qualified to perform this task. The parents should be educating their children at home or in small groups, but should never be turning their kids over to a socialist education system or government to raise them.

100 years from now this same discussion will be taking place unless the free market alone handles the job.

By thomas

July 22, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

I cannot repeat enough how much money these schools have!!!!! These local systems have more money than they know what to do with. If I even told you the tip of the iceberg, I would lose my job.

What the problem is is that principals and other central office staff WASTE much of the discretionary funds on things they want. If they kept their minds on what’s best for the children, we wouldn’t have any problems.

Here is a little secret— It’s not the well-to-do suburban schools that have the most funds. It’s the “low income” schools that get the most government money. When you see upper middle class suburban schools with lots of things, much of that came from outside sources— local businesses, partners in education, fundraising, PTA, parents, etc. Now those are the things that the lower income schools don’t have.

But it comes to money for instruction, I would rather have a Title I school over a “good” school any day. I would rather those Federal and state funds, special programs, and EIP over some fountain in the lobby or a mural on the wall in the media center. I would rather have classes with 14 students instead of 28.

By catlady

July 22, 2008 11:27 AM | Link to this

One other thing: while I would not mind more money (and I doubt many teachers would complain), some of the most important things could be done for little money. For example, get the kids who cannot be motivated or who are disruptive out of the regular classroom. Pay for boot camp style teachers out of the money currently supporting the cure du jours and their attendant “suprevisors” out there. Start this no later than 4th grade. Kid who see the light can earn their way back into the regular classroom. You gotta pay for a teacher anyway.

I saw a class this year that was comprised completely of these kind of kids. I don’t think it was planned. They did not learn much (they did not have a boot camp style teacher, unfortunately) but it did mean the other math classes could proceed with learning math. The class I helped with, the next one up the food chain, could have benefited greatly if that other class could have held two more kids. Those two kids (behavior problem slackers) managed to “hurt” the rest of the class’ achievement by several months’ of achievement, by my estimate, by their shenanigans, but it was the closest thing I have seen to isolating the problem kids. When will the parents of kids who want to learn DEMAND that THEIR kids’ needs be met? Until that happens, I doubt anything will be done.

I bet more appropriate placement for the kids I have described, something that would meet their needs (strict discipline and supervision) would go a long way toward meeting the needs of the other kids—a classroom where THEIR needs could be met. And I would take it over a raise any day.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

momforeducation,

“Toto, I’ve a feeling we’re not in Kansas anymore”

KS. has a child poverty rate of around 11% while Ga. has the distinction of being ranked nearer the bottom nationally where child poverty rates went from 18 percent to 20% between 2000 and 2006.

Do ya think there may just be a correlation between child poverty rates aand educationaal rankings? Seems I read somewhere once that there may be a link.

By catlady

July 22, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

yeah, jim, child povery rates and/or parental education both are directly correlated with poor educational outcomes.

By Big Money

July 22, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

How large is your Central Office Staff? Why do you need SO MANY important people in that build or should I say those buildings? There is plenty of fat to trim. That money could be spent to hire more teachers that care for smaller classroom size. There are so many different leaning levels in one classroom these days it is no wonder scores are down. And if you made those parents actually be present for the “paddling” to act as a witness, the parent just might take a little more interest in what that student is doing to warrant punishment. Make them leave work and be inconvenienced! Those are their little darlings.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

Can money fix schools?

You bet it can!!

But only when everyone is willing to participate freely in a total wealth re-distribution plan making everyone equal.

Oh wait—- didn’t a country called the USSR already try that? Anyone know how they fared?

By MrLiberty

July 22, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

What do you do when you visit a doctor and you are dissatisfied with the care? You go elsewhere right?

What do you do if you can’t find what you want or need to eat at a particular store or restaurant? You go elsewhere right?

So for your health and your sustinence you are more than happy to deal with a marketplace of choices (don’t get me wrong, there is nothing “free market” about medicine) but when it comes to educating your children - the most important job you have as a parent! - you are willing to settle, year after year, with the ongoing failings of a system that does not offer you any choice or way to opt out.

You don’t keep going to the same mechanic if he doesn’t fix your car. Why do you keep sending your kid to the same school that doesn’t educate them. Your car is more important to you than your kid?

Do you realize that this same discussion about money and failing schools has been going on for at least 40 years all over this nation?

Sorry to distract you with reality. Go back to watching Oprah or whatever. Just trying to get you to wake up and smell the reality of what you are doing to your kids. Sorry, you can’t be bothered.

By Lisa B.

July 22, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Catlady, awhile back my school had funding for a “bootcamp” style classroom. Two of them as a matter of fact. The teachers did a great job with some very tough 4th and 5th graders. Extra counseling was provided for the students, as well as afterschool tutoring. The rest of us were able to teach once the major problem kids were segregated. The “problem” children weren’t all black, nor were they all boys. As time passed, more than half of those students really turned themselves around. We had the program for three years, and then the funding dried up.

By MrLiberty

July 22, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

jim d’s comment reminds me of when I used to watch the Olympics back in the 70’s with my parents. The american broadcasters always used to make a point of how in the Soviet system kids with athletic or other aptitude would be sent away to school to be educated by the state system according to the plan the state had for them. Parents willingly gave up their children to this system.

My parents made the point to me even then that they put me into a private school because there was little difference between the Soviet system and what we had in the government school system.

I was happy my parents chose to raise me.

By The Mom

July 22, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Corporal punishment might help. I was spanked by my parents as a child. So were my kids when they needed it. When one of my boys was about 7 or 8, were out and some kid had a total melt down in the middle of the grocery store, his mother asked if he wanted a time out? I looked at my son and asked what would happen to you if he behaved like that? He said, you’d take me to the bathroom and wear me out - he was absolutely right. Too many kids today don’t get spanked when then need they need it, which is what is wrong with schools today, they KNOW there will be no consequence if they do anything wrong. Detention is a joke, more after school babysitting.

If a student’s behavior warrants a paddling at school, make the parent leave work or home and come to the school to act as a witness to ensure their little darling isn’t beaten black and blue. Maybe if they are inconvenienced enough, they will parent more appropriately at home!

And cut some fat in the Central Office!

By Dan

July 22, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

Of course there is a link between poverty and education. The problem is no one wants to acknowledge which is the cause and which is the result. Doing poorly in school causes poverty not the other way around, and like it or not many of the traits that are beneficial to above average performance are hereditary. The amazing thing is people are surprised by this

By jim d

July 22, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

I’m just a bit confused. We preach at kids that hitting and fighting are not acceptable behaviors and to enforce this some one to beat it into the kids?

Can someone tell me just how that re-enforces non-violent resolution to issues?

Hell, I’m nearly XX+ and haven’t figured that one out—Imagine how confusing that must be to a kid.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

Maybe regularly-scheduled beatings might improve children’s behavior even more effectively.

Parents can decide on a designated “beating hour”; say Thursday nights at 7:00 PM.

Now, the common objection to this is “children should not be beaten unless they have done something wrong, and regularly-scheduled beatings violate this principle.” I cannot swallow this argument, for the following reasons:

1) Children don’t just misbehave in front of you. Often, they will do things that you know nothing about, and can know nothing about. For example, if your child goes over to an unsaved friend’s house and watches MTV, you have no specific way of knowing about it. That doesn’t mean that the behavior should go unpunished, though; scheduled beatings allow you to make sure that nothing slips through the cracks.

2) Regular beatings can help to extinguish thoughts about disobedience. For example, your child may be harboring ideas about going to the school library and checking out a Harry Potter book behind your back. A strict act of discipline should shatter such impudent thoughts into a million pieces and scatter them to the winds. This leads directly into the third reason:

3) Punishment is not the only purpose of disciplining children! Strict discipline also serves to remind your child that you are in charge, and that there are consequences for untoward behavior, even if no such behavior has occurred! Your child may be angelic for three straight years, but without periodic guidance, there is an overwhelming chance that he or she will slide at some point in time.

So now that we’ve established that beatings are an unfortunate but necessary part of parenting, we need to establish some ground rules to make sure that they do not get out of hand. Physical punishment, like most things, can be taken to an extreme level. There is a line that we dare not cross, and we need to make sure that when we dispense punishment, we do so in a responsible manner.

1) Beatings should always take place in the immediate vicinity of a telephone, should medical assistance be necessary. A cellular phone is an acceptable substitute.

2) Care should be taken to avoid breaking limbs whenever possible. Skin should not be broken, but in cases where it is, a generous supply of Band-Aids (TM) and hydrogen peroxide should be on hand.

3) Discipline activities that will likely result in visible bruising should be done on “discreet” areas of the body that will be covered by clothing.

By SET

July 22, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

Jim D: Violence is the ultimate authority from which all other authority comes… I think that’s from Robert Heinlein.

So true…

By Michael

July 22, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

Funny how rural Georgia hates Atlanta until it wants Atlanta to pay its bills. If this passes then Atlanta should tell Georgia to get lost and to form another state.

By catlady

July 22, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

Lisa B: do you know the source of the grant?

Of course, our system would never go for it because some of the CO staff have grandchildren who should be in the bootcamp.

It would be nice to salvage the salvagable and let the 70-80 % of kids with regular problems learn and isolate the 10% who will probably only be redeemed when Jesus comes again. (said in a completely reverent way.)

In that class I spoke of earlier we had one kid who should not have been in that class. He generally wanted to learn, but he was sucked into the Dark Side frequently. He “visited” our class for awhile and his grades came up, his behavior improved, and although he was behind, he made good progress. We wanted to switch him for one of the two miscreants in our class to split them up, but the principal would not okay it. So he suffered and our whole class suffered with the two boys who had no interest in anything but calling attention to themselves and disrupting class. Eventually, the last 2 weeks of school they got into such serious trouble that they were suspended (OSS and ISS) for most of the rest of the year and it changed the atmosphere SO MUCH I almost cried. It was like the whole class said, “Ahhhhhhhh.” Sad but true.

By catlady

July 22, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

FEI: 2006 school tax rates for a few counties: Clarke, Clayton and Clinch 20; Cobb 19, Douglas 19.4; Fayette 18.6, Gwinnett: 19.25, Fulton 17.83, Dekalb 22.98 (I believe they had to get special permission to go above 20).

By Old School

July 22, 2008 1:41 PM | Link to this

Now Michael, that’s a mighty broad brush you are painting with! I live and teach in rural Southwest Georgia near the Fla line and in all my 34 years, the only negatives I’ve heard were specific to some of the insane stuff that comes from the legislature and DOE.

Some of us just think that we are suffering from vexation without representation. By that I mean it’s hard to believe anyone in the legislature or the DOE is listening to anyone, much less teachers ALL ACROSS THE STATE. We’ve undergone so many changes that we haven’t had time to master before the next one is thrust upon us, who knows what will actually work and what won’t? And it’s all put together by what seems to be a select few.

For learning’s sake, please just let us teach!

By FCM

July 22, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Our schools will not be fixed until we stop trying to make them be everything to everyone…ESL, Spec Ed, Behaviorists, Parents, etc….Then we need to stop pandering to the lowest common denominator. We need to set HIGH standards and reward those who ACHIEVE them through the hard work.

We need to take politics (both local and the larger picture like the green party) out of the schools. Let teacher’s have control of the classroom, remove the bureaucracy, remove the cell phones, the litigous mentality, step up security because for some reason the kids think they can bring weapons to school to harm each other (this includes their fists), and let the teachers teach.

Administrators need to stop courting the community for additional funds. They need to be administering to their schools.

Above all we need to personal responsiblity for doing well back on the STUDENT. If they need additional ‘help’ of whatever sort let the parents get it for them.

This comes from a single mom, single income.

By catlady

July 22, 2008 1:47 PM | Link to this

Some of the “whiner” counties: 2006 school millage rates: Bacon 13.5; Ben Hill 15.58.

All this from the newest (2008) Georgia County Guide.

By Lisa B.

July 22, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

Catlady, we didn’t have a grant for the “Bootcamp” classes. The teachers agreed to larger class sizes which enabled the principal to create two smaller classes for the very disruptive students. The teachers of those classes were allowed to be very, very strict, the students ate lunch in isolation, chores were assigned, as well as extra counseling. The teachers were paid extra to stay late with the students for additional academics. The students didn’t have PE, etc. with the other kids, though they did run laps around the track daily. Years of Austerity Cuts took away the principal’s flexibily to have those classes. The counselor ended up with Registrar duties in addition to his counseling duties, and could no longer spend daily time with those particular students. It was nice while it lasted, and the kids really seemed to benefit. A large percentage of them went on the graduate from high school in the last couple of years.

By jw

July 22, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

Somebody better start caring about those 6 year olds. The great State of Georgia thinks they should be held accountable for their education - that evil CRCT stuff. Schools could do a much better job, IF we had the parents who care about the EDUCATION of their children. We are asked to take the child into consideration in everything we do - let’s see no more homework, kids need to be kids, time out of class for sporting events, trips to all parts of the world, in the name of education - oh, an oldie but goody - no discipline, it hurts the creativity and individualism of my child. Seems the school district can’t win. Community says crack down on discipline and you scream - get tough on basics and academics, but you don’t want them retained when they can’t read or do grade level work. Seems the districts have just about thrown their hands up and said “I Quit” - until the community makes education - social, emotional and academic the most important part of a child’s formative years, nothing will work. It is easy for mom and dad to spend 500 dollars for game systems, but I can’t get a sheet of notebook paper from this same child to do an assignment! Give me a break! 250 dollar jerseys for each day of the week, yet they don’t pay their lunch charges. Ipods, cell phones all the toys in the world - but not one pencil or notebook - Schools can’t fight and win that battle - and it is scary. Then we have to deal with all the crap posted about all of us on facebook and mySpace, just because we try to do our job! The parents that are allowing this to happen know better - their teachers and mommas and daddies raised them better! Stop the blabber mouthing and make education important at home! Then go fuss about school budgets and teacher pay - If you aren’t a teacher and posting here, there ain’t a one of you that would work a year in a school, much less sub for a week! Quit blaming us! Walk a couple of miles in a school districts shoes and you will see what we talk about. All your garbage about teachers need to do this, admins need to do this, school boards need to do this - is plain old lip service. Wish I could make my students run laps for screwing up an assignment. Wish I could cuss them out in the locker room when they don’t pass their tests. Wish we could have more discipline - but remember - COMMUNITY you won’t let us! Until you COMMUNITY give us some backing, the school is just a glorified baby sitting service. Stop blaming us for your problems.

MY TWO CENTS WORTH!

By MrLiberty

July 22, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

You turn your kids over to this broken system (basically just a step above prison) to be raised. They see these teachers, disciplinarians, and fellow youngsters more than they see you every day. Do you honestly think that they are getting more reinforcement of their behavior, morality, etc. from you or from them?

Wow, I would think that any parent would be heartbroken at the prospect of their child going off every day to be raised by strangers, yet that is exactly what happens tens of millions of times every day in this country. And yet you all wonder why the discipline problems.

The most amazing thing I find about today’s blog is that not a single person has in any way even remotely challenged what I have to say. I mean, I know that what I am saying is correct, but usually it irks somebody enough to get something going.

Too bad. I hope it doesn’t mean that you have just shut out these ideas. Hopefully there is someone out there who wants more for their kids than 12 years of useless complaining about the system that will not fix itself. The financial day of reckonning is coming for this last bastion of pure socialism in our society. When the banks collapse, the mortgages are all called in and nobody is left to pay the property taxes, people will still wan’t thier kies to receive a good education. Left with no choice and plenty of time on their hands due to unemployement, they will quickly discover that kids learn at a remarkable rate when given the sttention and love that homeschooling does. They will also be amazed at how kids can be taught the basics of math, reading, and arithmetic in a remarkably short time when attention and focus are the backbone of the day.

By "Charles", The Original

July 22, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

Another parable was put forth to them. The kingdom of heaven is like people who sowed good seed in the field: But while they slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the house came and said to them, didn’t you sow good seed in the field? Where did the tares come from? They said with difficulty, an enemy has done this!

Just think for a moment, most racial groups in the United States have been deliberately dumbed down via integration and the so-called educated integrationist Negroes etc…

Giving more money to schools at this point is like giving more oxygen to the deceased. But let’s surmise that a remnant is among the living and would benefit from more oxygen/money. Instantly protruding over the horizon is the law of diminishing returns.

Corporal punishment was a great asset in the 1950s-1960s. Notably in the black community, the average student was honest, conservative and bursting with energy. Practically every student was socialized; and the expectation of teachers, parents, and students was that there wouldn’t be any disruption in the classroom. Corporal punishment was vital to maintaining discipline and order among most racial groups.

In the New World Order, the 21st century, too many students aren’t socialized. There is no consensus among faculty, parents, and students. Corporal punishment is desperately needed to ensure discipline and order, but it’s incompatible with our integrated new world order; … while we were asleep, our enemies have done this!

By jim d

July 22, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

Right Charley,

I have seen the enemy,——- and he is us!!

By jim d

July 22, 2008 3:29 PM | Link to this

SET,

One of the ways I think about smacking children is in relation to smacking adults. I often find myself in conversations where I find other adults intensely irritating, but could I ever reach across the table, slap them round the face, and say: “Stop being so stupid. Calm down.”?

Of course, I couldn’t. I’d be charged with assault and would be thought a fool for the rest of my life. Nor could I smack somebody else’s child. Why then, should I be allowed to use violence on my own child?

By "Charles", The Original

July 22, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

More precisely Jimmy boy,

I have seen the enemy, and they are a few of us misrepresenting/misleading the overwhelming majority of us.

By MrLiberty

July 22, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

Federal Govt. = 6% of school funding, 95+% of regulations

Administrative staff are there to address and comply with regulations. Get rid of regulations and you can get rid of administration. Keep regulations and you MUST keep administration. None of you even talk about this. It is the key.

NCLB - just another huge govt. regulation. Supposedly the Republicans were going to eliminate the DOE back in 1994.

Others have talked about the money. Do the math. $7500 times 25 students = $187,500 per classroom. Teacher gets nothing, maintenance gets nothing, administration gets most.

This is a money making scheme that nobody is going to give up easily. They certainly aren’t going to let you tell them how to run it.

You are not the customer. You just pay and pay, and provide fresh blood for their “experiments in learning.”

Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results each time is the mark of insanity.

All it takes is for you to withdraw your support and you and your children are free. It doesn’t matter how many more follow. Why worry about them when you should be worried about your children.

By "Charles", The Original

July 22, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Jimmy boy,

Just because I’m a Christian, don’t think that I can’t get funky with you. I recall visiting New Birth Missionary Baptist church about twelve years ago. And Bishop Eddie Long was telling his congregants how a child had insulted him again in the lobby; you know our history, Pastors and Christians are supposed to be docile.

To make a long story short, Bishop Long said he jacked his little butt against the wall to get a point across. He had no further problems out of the boy. Christians should get down too if absolutely necessary.

I hope Senator Charles Grassley is not an ajc.com reader. In additions to questions concerning taxes, this incident could be another excuse to harass Bishop Long.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

Funky Charley,

Has a nice ring to it.

and no one needs look for a reason to harass Long, He freely provides enough himself.

By jim d

July 22, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

Or how about Funky Chucky? Yeah, like that one better! whatta think?

By "Charles", The Original

July 22, 2008 4:35 PM | Link to this

You’re too late Jimmy Boy; my message has already been sent.

By SET

July 22, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this

Jim D. - Read Charles entry of 2:59.

Try to understand. On one hand, corporal punishment works throughout history in shaping behavior - quickly, cheaply, and properly done with little or no trauma.

Then we have the Brave New World we created around 1960 with the “Great Society” programs and the dimunition of corrective corporal punishment - in the schools and in the jails and prisons.

It’s worked so well in CA we have been forced to enact 3 strikes laws that can send someone to State Prison for life for possession of Cocaine, shoplifting, addict w/a gun, car theft, etc. Meanwhile Malaysia and Singapore correct a racially diverse population with a fraction of the money and man-years of prison..albiet with permanant scarring from the cane whipping (if someone persists in shoplifting, car theft, stc).

The lack of understanding of what it takes to control (mainly) males in a free society is responsible for the hell on earth we are creating for ourselves in out cities.

“Whip that a*” equals a safer and saner society. Medea is right.

And if Blacks require more attention in these matters, give it to them. Disciplined people live longer and better, not like the mess we see now.

By TheBlogger

July 22, 2008 7:59 PM | Link to this

As a teacher, I will honestly say that we don’t need to spend more money on education. The total amount is already enough.

What is desperately needed is what has already been mentioned. We need a way to ensure that the money is spent properly in the classrooms and for the students. Way too much is spent on administration, on the “central offices” of school systems, on consultants, and so on.

I suggest a GA State SWAT team of 5 or so people that go school system to school system to look over the expenditures and ensure that money is spent properly.

By thomas

July 22, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this

I just heard the terrible news. Last month Congress cut the funding for the Reading First program. Last year the program’s funding was cut 60%. Now it’s all gone.

But the Five Components of Reading will live on. Phonemic awareness, phonics, fluency, vocabulary, and comprehension. Every child’s got to have it.

Instead these sickening schools want to waste time with garbage and bullcrap. “Reading” in most schools today is garbage. A snake bite would cause a child less damage than what these girls are doing in these classrooms with this “Balanced Literacy.”

I ought to become a consultant. Go across the country preaching the gospel about effective teaching and reading instruction.

By Lee

July 22, 2008 8:46 PM | Link to this

It was once said that the two groups most opposed to the end of Prohibition were the bootleggers and the cops. Why? Because they both built empires off the black market.

Today, we have a failing public education system and the education “establishment” is opposed to any real reform. Predictably, their only solution is to throw more money at the problem.

More teachers. Smaller classrooms. The newest fad program. Taj Mahal central offices to house all the bureaucrats to administer the tons of government regulations. The alphabet soup of groups who lobby for their own self interests - GAE, PAGE, State Superintendents Association, PSC, colleges of education, the federal and state DOEs, ad infinitum.

Politicians know one thing. In order to garner support for their endless stream of government programs, they must first create a crisis (real or imaginary). War on drugs. War on terror. Energy crisis. Global warming.

Sound familiar?

Why should we expect the War on Illiteracy to be any different?

By jim d

July 23, 2008 7:05 AM | Link to this

in loco parentis

By catlady

July 23, 2008 7:57 AM | Link to this

thomas, does that mean we will finally get rid of the idiocy brought on by RF? No more weekly Dibeling? No more highly paid, always at or planning a meeting “coaches”? No huge supplement for the CO “director” (who has never taught reading, BYW). No more 2 hrs 40 minutes of agony? No more flashcards while the kids stand in line to go to the bathroom?

Or, will it live on as long as the county is willing to fund it locally? Will the grants funded be immediately ended?

Will we ever recover from this prevarication?

By catlady

July 23, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

thomas, if you do become a consultant and promote your cure du jour, my county will buy it! Especially if, no matter how silly, you claim to increase reading scores, end teen pregnancy, stop young people from smoking, and bring about a peaceful solution to nuclear missile prolifferation! Most especially, if, in your program, THE TEACHERS will accomplish this, all without any additional effort on anyone else’s part.

By WFC

July 23, 2008 9:11 AM | Link to this

Oh my! The sky is falling!

Let’s do the following academic study with an eye on “cost effectiveness”:

By catlady

July 23, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Guess we are on auto-pilot. How long will it be before someone notices the link for today’s topic is broken and fix it?

By thomas

July 23, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

Catlady,

As for the future of Reading First, who knows? I believe that it is on its death knells. RF was destroyed for political reasons, not educational. The Democrats in Congress chopped RF to get back at Bush.

I used to teach in a school system that was big into RF. In fact, by the time I left the system, even at the non Title I, non RF schools, we were incorporating components of RF. Our school had to do DIBELS, 135 minutes of “uninterrupted reading”, etc. The next year they were supposed to have kids divided into groups according to reading level— using the DIBELS as the determining factor. Oh, and they had Direct Instruction as well. The teachers who had to do DI HATED it. They were supposed to take small groups of students and teach them for 45 minutes using the scripted DI books. They even had to use hand signals and say things like “my turn” and “your turn.”

I fell in love with the CONCEPTS of RF, the five components of reading, after attending a class taught by a woman who was a reading guru in Texas. The class was about teaching struggling readers, but most of the materials/ideas came from Texas. That particular year I had a fourth grade class that was almost half SPED/ESOL. The other half were “regular” students, but were reading on second grade level. The next year I ended up teaching in a barrio. From those experiences I came to appreciate the importance of those five reading components.

What further cemented my beliefs in the fundamentals of RF was the type of reading instruction the county of the new school system believed in. These people were all into whole language/balanced literacy. First of all, both of these are flawed. Sure there are some valid ideas that can be used as part of teaching reading, but to use those alone is damaging to beginning readers.

You had people, some of whom were right out of college, going into the classroom playing and BSing with this balanced literacy and it was (AND IS) destroying children. You’ve got people spending more time worrying about trying to get kids to make some stupid “text-to-self connection” rather than teaching kids how to actually read the words on the page.

I further became a strong believer in teaching traditional reading fundamentals after seeing over the course of my career, teaching hundreds of children, from first grade to fifth grade, how not knowing the basics (like phonemic awareness and phonics) can keep a child from being able to read more complex text.

I found out that many teachers like balanced literacy because they can fake it when it comes to teaching reading. With balanced literacy and whole language, there is no right or wrong answers. The teachers and students get to make up reasons and rationales for what they do. It’s much easier for a teacher to sit on her butt with the students crowded around her on the floor and read a book aloud than for her to be on her feet teaching the sounds of digraphs and how to read words with silent consonants.

You see, students in the most high need schools need strong, effective reading instruction and these are the kids least likely to get it. Why? Because those schools typically ended with the least experienced and least motivated teachers. You may have a school in a well-to-do suburban area wasting time with that balanced literacy garbage, but the children come from homes where there is a sufficient background knowledge and home support to fill in any gaps left by the school. Children from working class and poor neighborhoods don’t have that.

So although RF was not perfect, it is far better than the garbage we have in its place. I hate going into schools and seeing teachers sitting on their a*ses all day, BSing, and kids not learning. I am sick of people calling themselves teaching reading through Guided Reading. These people simply get a little bag of books and sit down with the kids at a table for 15-20 minutes and fake a reading lesson. They usually have no real focus of instruction and haven’t planned out a real lesson. The kids simply read aloud together and the teacher may ask them some rudimentary questions she came up with as they stumbled along. I went into a third grade class last year and heard a poor boy stutter like a retard while reading a simple text. Then I heard the teacher during “guided reading”. Lord have mercy.

This is why I am on a MAJOR soapbox about this. I have personally witnessed the damage ineffective principals and teachers can do to students. Even things thatt seem reasaonable on paper and in theory can be disasterous in the hands of crazed fools.

By catlady

July 23, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

I guess your take on RF and mine are different. Our county has been RF for 4 years (maybe 5). All kids, all grades through 5th. Even schools with very limited numbers of below-level readers (like you can count them on one hand) do RF, although not as “jackboot to the throat” as the others, 160 minutes per day, 180 days, no exceptions. One time we had a tornado warning and there was some question as to whether we could put the kids in the hall or not, and if we should then continue to teach out there. I am not kidding.

We also do Direct Instruction,complete with dog clickers or snapping fingers.

Our kids, who have now had RF all their school lives, are better at sounding out words but think that sounding out words fast is reading fluently. NO comprehension skills. Although we work on it during the small amount of time allotted (and only for those kids whose “fluency” (word calling) is fast enough) we are not allowed to do many of the things that would assist in developing comprehension. For our kids (Title 1) we need to be able to give them some experiential background, for example. The kids whose word calling is not good enough don’t get to work on comprehension at all. Reading coach says so.

I guess I hate RF and DI so much because I see what it is doing to our average and above average kids. They HATE reading class. And their scores have flatlined as well. If my kids were still in school I would be raising h3ll about this kind of reading.

It has convinced our low kids that they are good readers based on their Dibels score, when they cannot answer question one about what a passage says. “Fluency” defined as word calling is a lie.

When I came up through school (35 years ago) I learned most of the things that RF stresses. The inservice part, especially for the younger teachers, and those from the diploma mill schools, is probably helpful. I am also glad for the emphasis on more active instruction by the teacher, but I think it is a travesty that the children are given no time to reflect on their reading, or to work on other literacy skills like grammar and spelling. Nor is there much room for the creative side of reading.

I am not saying it is the worst thing out there, but I question its motives, methods, and “results.”

By thomas

July 23, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

I ABSOLUTELY agree that some of the things schools required in conjunction with RF was excessive. I also so absolutely believe that children need to be able to do more than just decode text fluently.

The things I like about RF (and consequently the Bush Department of Education) is the focus on teacher development, additional resources and money, along with the RECOGNITION OF THE FIVE COMPONENTS OF READING. I like staff development, so that’s one thing that floats my boat. Also RF came with money, money, and more money. Money for materials, money for extra personnel (coaches, parapros, etc.).

I think if you can have some flexiblity with those things, then the RF concept seems fine. I think a lot of teachers, like yourself, became frustrated with the rigidity and some of the things required to maintain the RF grant.

The “Five Components of Reading” are required, but have their place. If you teach reading effectively from kindergarten to second grade, then you don’t need to worry about phonics and fluency in the fourth or fifth grade. Reading First was designed for K-3.

If children have the fundamentals of reading down, then OF COURSE you can move on to other things in reading. You can explore literature and making text-to-self and text-to-world connections. You can do that because they child can read the words on the page and has the vocabulary to understand what each word means. You can then go on to HIGHER LEVEL THINKING skills. But you have to have the LOWER LEVEL SKILLS in place before you can develop your higher ones.

By catlady

July 23, 2008 5:13 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately our CO has seen only the (significant) dollar signs of RF. (They would buy and distribute dog doo if there was a grant to cover it) There are NO thinking skills on their part—no higher level skills. All kids: same brush. Kids reading 2-3 years above grade do RF, just as kids 2 years below. Kids in 5th like those in 1st. It has really killed the love of reading for at least half our kids. It makes me sick.

Seems to be that teacher ed programs need to be teaching this stuff. I know that is where I first heard about it, lo these 3 and a half decades ago.

Someone has made a h3ll of a lot of money off RF, and, by extension, the taxpayers.

We got STUFF, and we got COACHES and a COACHES’ SUPERVISOR and lots of trips for certain people to conferences all over the country, but we’ve gotten no parapros and we have lost a lot of fine teachers (in a county with very low turnover) simply because they could not stomach the lies that RF promulgates: that decoding fast is reading, that saying words fast is fluency, that reading is the only component of literacy, that DIBELS is an accurate measure of reading, that the only way to teach reading is to stand in front of the class and dance as fast as you can, that if your kids read 120 WPM they will pass the CRCT, that kids are not learning to read because teachers are not working hard enough, that if you only buy these things (with taxpayer provided money) and use them right, everyone will be successful.