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DEL.ICIO.USIs there a recipe for success?
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Congress held a hearing about how to improve urban schools and Atlanta superintendent Beverly Hall was one of the speakers.
She spoke about what has happened in the district since she took over in 1999. Test scores may not be where everyone wants them, but they have steadily improved.
She listed five key things done by the district and community, including: replacing ineffective principals, providing teachers with better training and recruiting quality candidates to run for school board.
Much of what Hall mentioned seems like common sense, things many other school leaders would say. If lots of people know what it takes to improve schools, why are so few succeeding?
What do you think gets in the way of improving our schools?
Comments
By Gwinnett Educator
July 18, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this
1) Over the top, arrogant, self serving adminstrators 2) Laziness (includes some teachers, students, parents, support personnel, etc) 3) Over zealous parents 4) Apathetic behavior (see Clayton County) 5) Students that don’t want to be in school 6) Discipline issues that aren’t addressed. The ones that are addressed aren’t properly resolved. 7)The latest CURE in education being pushed every other school yr. *text book changes, curriculum changes, etc
By thomas
July 18, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this
There is a recipe for school success. It starts with quality LEADERSHIP. From there you get quality teachers, hence instruction. The final result is quality students. You don’t get success by making excuses for failure— something I have seen time and time and time again. Heck you even see it on the blog pages. We can’t blame the students when it is OUR schools that are the ones that are disfunctional. It is the central office staff, principals, teachers, and support staff that set the tone, not the children. Why do we expect a six year old to set the tone and direction of our school?
By Lee
July 18, 2008 8:52 AM | Link to this
What do you think gets in the way of improving our schools?
Schools, especially at the elementary grades, throw everyone into the same classroom and expect them to learn at the same pace. Heck, the big thing now is “Pacing Guides”. Give me a break.
It is only at the high school level the student is able to segregate himself by ability by enrolling in AP, Honors, College Prep, etc, etc, classes. Too little, too late, IMHO.
Everyday, instead of teaching, the Teacher has to deal with some sort of discipline problem. Behavior, good and bad, is a learned attribute - and it is established at an early age. However, our elementary schools do not deal with these students and allow the problem to be passed on until one day, the high schools have to have armed “resource officers” on staff to provide a semblance of order.
Deal with those two issues and you will see a marked improvement in our schools.
By catlady
July 18, 2008 9:06 AM | Link to this
1) laws and policies designed by those who know nothing about the ramifications (but the laws sound GOOD), 2) state BOEs and elected officials who posture and preen, but do not know much about in the trenches education, 3) incompetent, self-serving state depts of ed who either don’t do competent, unbiased research or don’t look at the research, 4) county BOEs more concerned with their personal fiefdoms, 5) vastly out of touch Central Office staff, 6) principals grossly unqualified or looking to move up into the CO, 7) reliance on the cure de jour and buzzwords, 8) teachers who teach for the steady paycheck and state bennies, 9) students who are disinterested and unmotivated, 10) students whose “behavior issues” cause mayhem and are not dealt with quickly and decisively, thus poisoning the atmosphere for the other kids, 11) parents who don’t even know when their children’s report cards come out, 12) parents who dismisss their children’s misbehavior as “it didn’t happen”, “the teacher is against my child”, or “all kids are like that”, 13) the other end of the spectrum—parents who want to micromanage, 14) the emphasis on saving money to the detriment of the children (let’s see how many more we can cram into this building), 15) taxpayers who want everyone to be educated but do not want to pay for schools, 16) anyone who does not acknowledge that schools serve a different clientele, and face vastly different pressures than they did 30 years ago, 17) the idea that we can “make” students successful, , 18) the idea that all students have the same abilities to master skills, 19)inclusion, 20) middle and upperclass bloggers who think they know everything about education because they have gone to an awards ceremony at their own local school, and extrapolate their observations to every other school. These are the major problems. Now, to the minor ones…….
By Tom
July 18, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this
BUT no one has the courage or vision to make it happen or ability to fight the powerful unions, lobbyists that have the legilature in their hands, as well as the money machine government.
By thomas
July 18, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this
Lee, are you a teacher? It sounds like you teach high school, or at least have a high schooler.
I see nothing wrong with heterogenus grouping in elementary school. Do you want to have segregation in school again? Put all the “smart kids” in one group and all the “dumb” ones in another. Who are “smart” kids anyway?
This is one of the problems of American schools— segregation. And I’m not referring to the racial segregation of the 1950’s and 1960’s. I am referring to the disparity of resources, opportunities, and quality of instruction between schools and even groups of students within a school.
And you can’t explain away the troubles of school due to a handful of “troublemakers.” In the county I work at, many of our elementary schools are failing. There are not failing because of some “troublemakers.” Most of the children are actually quite gentle, cooperative, and want to please. In fact when I used to teach, I had very few behavior problems. The only kids I ever had a problem with were the ones screwed up by adults. That’s a fact, jack!!!! It’s the lousy adults that are the problem.
A former AP once told me “it’s not the kids that are the problem. It’s the grown folks. If all we had to deal with is the children, we’d be all right.”
By jim d
July 18, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this
I’m sure this comes of no surprise and I can explain it with one 6 letter word.
CHOICE
By jim d
July 18, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this
Thomas,
Government at its worst!!
If all we had to deal with is the children, we’d be all right.”
By landsaf
July 18, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this
let teachers actually teach
By AP
July 18, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this
In Georgia, there are no teacher unions. Teachers have organzations that provide some guidance but little help and support. I came from Tennessee (where there are unions) and it was a better place to work. It was impossible for administrators to take advantage of the teachers and thus your teachers were more satisfied with their work. Happy teachers = higher student success (As far as the bad teachers having protections…..bad employees do get fired and disciplined - the collective bargaining agreement typically says what the punishments are for certain offenses - unlike here in GA where I’ve personally seen a number of bad teachers continue to work).
Teacher retention and appreciation. I think the problem is that teachers feel overworked and under-appreciated and thus a lot of excellent teachers give up (the rate of teacher retention in a lot of the metro counties is horrible). We have so many teachers in rough school districts/school environments with little to no experience. It takes most teachers a few years to figure out what works and what doesn’t. I have seen many good teachers early in their career move on to other things. We have to find a way to keep new teachers from quitting.
Administrative apathy. There is no one out there to challenge policies and procedures. Administrators don’t ask the right questions before implementing programs. There are far too many districts that accept whatever a company says as the truth. The research says….blah, blah, blah. In most cases, research can be manipulated to say whatever the researcher wants it to say.
Discipline. The kids are out of control because there is no fear of consequences. One of the most important lessons every first year teacher learns is consistency. If the children know that there is never going to be any punishment for behavior that violates classroom rules, school rules or rules of law they know that they don’t have to follow them.
Lack of funding for mandated programs
Lack of parent involvement
I could go on but there are so many things that are broken in this state that it would take all day.
By ron
July 18, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this
First and foremost the people that are disrupting the learning process have to be removed.It is very difficult to teach when the majority of your time is being taken up by a small minority of trouble makers.
Once these trouble makers are gone,control of the learning process will be in the hands of the teachers once again and learning will take place.
I’ve been involved in the adult education process for years and I can tell you for a certainty when all of the participants are pulling in the same direction teaching is a breeze.People learn.
I have had disruptive people in my classrom in the past,but they didn’t last long.They need to be removed.
By TruthTeller
July 18, 2008 10:13 AM | Link to this
T R U T H: Atlanta Public Schools (APS) has not improved. In fact, it has gotten worse since Bev came to town in 1999 with her New York/New Jersey ways. The only thing that has improved is (1) more cheating on the standardized tests (with very implicit approval from the administrators), (2) nore violations of teachers’ rights (like the quick alacrity for putting teachers on a Professional Development Plan for using their legitimate sick leave days as outlined in OCGA 20-2-850 apparently because Bev has bonuses tied to reducing teacher absenteeism), (3) more defiance from students (because the administrators will do nothing but blame the teachers for the little miscreants’ wanton misconduct, (4) more unaccountability for the money, (5) more head-nodding from the “yes” morons on the school board whom the Atlanta Chamber of Commerce helped elect just to look placid and dull, (6) more craziness from the irate and irresponsible parents, and (7) more stupidity and insanity from the many incompetent administrators who got their appointments in many cases because of services performed and sororities joined. This same scenario could almost be correlated on a one-to-one basis with “Premier” DeKalb. These two systems are veritably “bullsh_t” systems. More power to MACE for exposing these sytems and telling the truth about them! Teachers, do yourself a favor and stay away from the school systems. See them as a plague. There are some exceptions to the general rule that teaching in these systems could be detrimental to your health. www.theteachersadvocate.com
By Lee
July 18, 2008 10:24 AM | Link to this
Thomas, the main reason schools don’t group by ability is that it would soon stratify by IQ and by extention, the ethnicity of the student. When you start having more minority students in the slower class the race warlords would begin their discrimination chants.
God forbid we highlight the fact that there differences between the races.
If you put good apples and rotten apples in a blender, you wind up with bad applesauce. Placing an advanced student and a slower student in the same classroom is a disservice to both.
By CommunistAJC
July 18, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this
Bring back prayer. Then bring back stern punishment for idiotic behavior. After that, hire hard nosed principals with balls to in-force the rules. If parents don’t like it then beat the crap out of them.
By Duluth
July 18, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this
I think the biggest problem is no disclipine in the schools anymore. Put the paddle back into the principal’s office, and scare these kids.. Enforce consequences. Make it a total embarrassment for the kid to be called to the Principal’s office. Let the administrators deal with these problem kids in a way that gets their attention!
However, the problem really lies with the parents. It’s the lack of parenting, the lack of respect.
By Debby
July 18, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this
Lee is absolutely right. The kids once again need to be grouped by ability. It would be much easier for the teachers and also better for the students if most of them were learning at roughly the same pace.
Also agree that the persistent troublemakers need to be relocated to an alternative school. In the middle and high schools, they are a very real disruption to the learning process.
By Barbara
July 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this
Completely privatize them. Take them out from under government control.
By EducatorX3
July 18, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this
Just curious…for those of you who advocate grouping students. I agree that students have varying levels of ability. Teachers also vary in their abilities. Even if we are talking about varying levels of “good,” there are differences in their abilities. So…Where would you assign the weaker teachers? to the weaker students? to best students?
I am not trying to incite…I am just curious what you think.
By radical change
July 18, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this
I think that we would swap an entire school with a third world country school where attending school is a dream at best for most. This could take place during the summer. By the time school starts in the fall, the US kids will be running to school to sit and learn.
This way, the US kids (from all over the country) will visit a place where education is valued and students appreciate smalls things like a desk and a pencil.
The kids will walk about 2 miles to school in the heat, have 1 book to share, no money (free or otherwise) for lunch, one outfit for everyday and my list could go on. Then, when they return to the US, their attitude towards learning would change forever.
Next phase.. send the parents to a third world county. We would have a transformation of the entire school system within a few years.
Our current system is not working
By luvs2teach
July 18, 2008 11:12 AM | Link to this
I’m not sure what happened to the post I wrote about a half hour ago - I posted several youtube links - maybe that messed it up.
Anyway, the gist of my post was that, while I agreed with much that had already been posted at the time, the problem is we are looking at it from a middle class mindset, and that’s not alwasy going to work with an urban school.
IMO, nothing has done a better job in exploring that than the 4th season of The Wire - I know I sound like a broken record but I was so impressed with how the stroy unfolded during the course of the season and how realistic it was.
Go to youtube and put in “The Wire Education” for some clips - also “Bunny Colvin Speech” - warning - language is rough, and some of the comments are disturbing, but also a good indicator of what we’re up against.
By jim d
July 18, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this
Oh my,
Teachers
government control
grouping by ability
Lack of disclipine
bring back prayer??? were’d it go? No one has said kids can’t pray in school—only that a government employee can’t lead it or censor it.
TruthTeller,No customer service?
All of this can be assuaged with CHOICE. why is that concept so difficult for people to assimilate?
By Lee
July 18, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this
EducatorX3, good point. I think you put your best and most experienced teachers helping those students who are struggling the most. I also think that for these students, you use smaller class sizes and/or a parapro to help out.
A bad or ineffective teacher is another issue. It is up to the principal to either get this teacher the training and development they need or get them out of the profession. Another of my pet peeves.
By Nan
July 18, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this
One simple thing that’s been shown time and time again to make a difference is class size. The lower the student-teacher ratio, the better. Even if nothing else changes (textbooks, access to computers, whatever), reducing the number of students per teacher results in better performance from both.
By teach45
July 18, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this
I appreciate that we may all be looking at this from a middle class mindset….I don’t really buy that. As a teacher, some of the biggest problems I’ve had in my classes have been from kids who are not living in poverty. Kids that came from extreme poverty 20 years ago came to school to learn and I think for the most part those kids still come to learn. Educators give up on those kids before they walk through the door because they assume they are going to be a problem. Expectations are everything.
I appreciate that kids that are being forced to raise themselves and their siblings defintely have a different persepective on education and following rules….however, solid policies and consistency will work regardless of the population. I currently teach in a district that has a lot of problems (from the top administrators on down) and the kids can still be taught.
STOP MAKING EXCUSES!
By Lee
July 18, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
Radical change, allow illegal immigration to continue unchecked for a few more years, and you wont have to GO to a third world country, the US is quickly BECOMING a third world country.
Hell, some schools/districts are already there.
By atllaw191
July 18, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
Sure, here are a few: 1) Administrators pay must reflect the progress of the school and its students. 2) (and I list this as #2 for a reason) - Parents are fined and hauled off to jail - publically humiliated if their children don’t attend/do the work/get the grade/go to PTA meetings - they need to be held accountable! (maybe this would decrease the property tax rate for every county in GA)-incentive? 3) Teachers would not be hired except with an FBI checklist/approval of acceptable qualities (to weed out the perverts/criminals)
By WFC
July 18, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this
Leadership, or lack thereof, is the key. Has anyone ever done a study of the academic achievement of school leaders (principals and central office guys)?
Very few “leaders” have ever excelled in an academic subject. Most “leaders” in public schools never taught an academic subject. They jumped as soon as possible onto the “leadership” track and removed themselves from actually dealing with students directly as soon as possible. I taught in four public schools and two private schools. Not surprisingly, the only two scholars were the two private school guys (Fr. Terry Young at St. Pius and Tom Whitworth at Frederica Academy.) Whitworth actually taught senior English one year when the teacher became ill. Can you imagine a public school principal doing that? Not bloody likely.
The public school paradigm is a guy like Robert E. Burke, formerly principal at Chattahoochee H.S. and now Associate Super. for Curriculum and Instruction for Fulton County schools. I served as an administrator under him for four years. He bailed from teaching (we never knew what he taught) after the mandatory three years. He got a “doctorate” from an on-line diploma mill. Whenever our leadership team met with him about the academics of our school. his eyes would glaze over. His every move at Chattahoochee was designed to get him the highly paid central office job. He succeeded. He knows about as much about “curriculum and instruction” as Chuckles the Clown. Everyone in Fulton knows this. That’s “leadership” for you.
The general public would be amazed at how UNIMPORTANT academics are in public schools.
By BlueMoon
July 18, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this
The public school system is in it’s final death throes. There will be a time in the next 20 years or so that we see them become privatized more and more while government gets the heck out of the way. Too much bureaucracy and not enough common sense right now. Privatization would change that.
By NOBRAINER
July 18, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this
Start with the kids…..and bring back DISCIPLINE!
A child who fears a good paddling by the principal might just actually sit and LEARN!
By Eric
July 18, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this
Bring back segregation!
By shadow7071
July 18, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this
Recipe for success -
Develop a bias for action - Develop a style of active decision making. Get on with it. Avoid the meeting quagmire. Don’t get bogged down with bureaucracy.
Stay close to the customer - In your case, stay close to the kids (and parents where possible). Know what the customer needs. Anticipate what the customer needs. Deliver what the customer needs. Don’t deliver what you or management (or the government) think they need.
Establish an environment of Autonomy and entrepreneurship - nurture and foster both teachers and children who are innovative and champions. Allow them to excell. Don’t suppress their abilities.
Productivity through teachers - treat teachers as the source of quality input, ideas, information and solutions. Stop looking at the experts from afar for the magic potion that will cure all problems.
Hands-on, value driven - management and leadership that is hands-on everyday. Showing daily commitment. MBWA (management by walking around)
Stick to your knitting - Your job is to educate young people in the academic subjects (reading, writing, math, science, english and social studies). Your job is not to solve the ills of society, cure world hunger, boil the ocean, and save the planet. If you’re so inclined, do it on your own time.
Simple form, lean staff - the best organizations have minimal Headquarters staff. Get rid of the bureaucracy. Keep the organizational chart simple.
Simultaneous loose-tight style - autonomy at the school level but possessing core central values and principles.
Speed - we have to act fast
Innovation - early adapters. Don’t wait for someone to run over you.
Continuous Improvement - There is always a better way
By Beck
July 18, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this
It never ceases to amaze me how people like Lee (and Debby who agreed with him) can make blatantly racist remarks about how the lower level classes will be filled with black students, and then turn around and say but then people will say there is racism involved.
Who made the assumption that the dumb kids were black?
By Everything's fine...
July 18, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this
US Govt schools are doing exactly as designed…produce masses of average and below average products who will (a) either help pay their share of the taxes through working average or below average jobs or (b) be too stupid or lazy to work and as a result consume their share of public assistance.
The highest levels of society understand this and send their kids to private schools. As a result, these kids will go on to earn more wealth and manage to get ahead despite having to give more and more of their earnings through taxes to help the stupid and lazy.
If you have any means at all to send your kids to private schools and don’t because you spend your monies on larger houses, cars, vacations, etc., you’re selfishly denying your children a better education.
They may figure it out one day and you’ll understand when your relationship changes.
By Old School
July 18, 2008 12:39 PM | Link to this
What do you think gets in the way of improving our schools?
Most all of the above AND failing to “hook” the academic subjects into the real world. I honestly believe students are more likely to “get it” when they can see the practical application and practice it. We seem to teach math for math’s sake and maybe for the sake of THE TEST but seldom make it practical in everyday life.
We need to offer opportunities for re-learning the skills that made us baby boomers successful: the ability to work hard, integrity, parenting, personal finance, self-reliance, work ethics, self-discipline, problem solving, life and workplace communications, MANNERS, and…
…altruism (although I’m not sure it can be taught except by the example of the elders.)
I haven’t said any of this very well but most of you know where I’m coming from. I would love to see Industrial Arts put back in the high schools. Done right, it’s an amazing program that can encompass the core academics, introduce the vocational and all the while develop the craftsmanship so long missing from soul-less mass production.
By just a teacher
July 18, 2008 12:40 PM | Link to this
Just a few thoughts: 1. I fail to see how privatization or even choice for that matter would solve systemic problems. I understand that these moves may help a few, but probably the ones who benefit would be the groups that already thrive in public schools.
My “customers” are NOT my students, or their parents. I work for the current and future citizens of Fulton County.
If you recruit and keep intelligent people into the profession, support them by letting them teach and minimizing the extra demands on their time, the results will be be better than all the “professional development”/trendy programs in the world.
By Bill
July 18, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Get rid of the powerful teachers unions that control our school system. Give every parent a $6000 school voucher to use as they please. I promise you all of the terrible schools will empty outand the good schools will be filled to capacity. That is called free market
By JeremiahWright
July 18, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this
Kick out the discipline problems. Simple as that.
By Debby
July 18, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this
Beck, spare me your accusations about racism. Nowhere in what I wrote did I say anything racist. I suggested that kids need to be grouped by ability, and that the kids with consistent discipline problems should be removed from the classroom.
I don’t care what color the kid is, nor did I imply otherwise.
By John
July 18, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this
Bounce the hoodlums and thugs out.
Get rid of bad teachers.
Expand vocational schools. Not every kid is going to college. Train them in a trade.
By MrLiberty
July 18, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this
Only one step needed for success - shut down all government - run schools.
Until we enable a system in which real consumers are really paying their own money for the services they are or are not receiving there will never be a change. All of you are talking about tweaking a bit around the edges. THAT HAS BEEN TRIED AND FAILED.
Government schools are based on the immoral premise that it is ok to steal from the rest of society to pay for your child’s education. The parent’s contribution is a small pittance compared to the real cost. They are not the consumer, cannot take their money and go elsewhere.
Look at every other business in the world and you will see a company that is either responsive to its customer’s needs or it fails (absent some immoral govt. bailout of course). Not the schools. They fail to deliver and they get more money. People withdraw their kids and they are accused of not “getting behind and supporting” the schools.
Why do we reward failure like we do?
I think that it is because parents fundamentally don’t want to be responsible for their children (or rather the choice that they made to have them). They would rather spend the money on shoes and big screen tv’s than on a decent education. They would rather watch American Idol than help them with homework. They would rather just put up with the horrible school down the street rather than figure out how to make homeschooling work for them (even if mom stays home).
Basically it is easier to blame the government for the failure that is your child than it is to get off your butt and remove them from the failed system.
When you go to a new restaurant, just look at how much time you give to the menu and what you are going to select. Now look at how much time you put into seroiusly considering how your child will be educated. At the restaurant it is your money and your choice, and the choices are real and available. Education could be that same way.
Doesn’t your childs education deserve at least as much attention as last night’s dinner?
By new mom
July 18, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this
I taught for one horrible year in a public school system, and have the following perspective:
old school, I agree that there are lessons that are no longer being taught. I tend to think that those lessons, such as hard work, integrity, self-reliance, etc., were actually once taught by parents. It seems that each generation of parents has abdicated more and more responsiblity of teaching their kids to the school system, leaving less time for teachers to teach the material.
That leads me to my other observation between the difference between what some would consider the ‘good old days’ of teaching and today’s environment. Way back when, teachers were expected to teach. Not attend meeting after meeting, serve on multiple committees, or deal with all the discipline problems themselves. Their job was to teach. The principal’s (singular) job was to make sure the school ran smoothly and deal with the serious discipline problems. Remember when getting sent to the principal’s office was so scary? Why? Because they CALLED YOUR PARENTS. These days, the parents come to school fighting the administrators ‘on behalf’ of their kids, instead of come to school ready to punish their kids.
I totally agree about the comments on private vs public school. In order to find schools with teachers who TEACH, we plan to go private. We don’t splurge on much at all, we have a smaller house than we actually could afford, we live on a budget, but we plan to ‘splurge’ on our daughter’s education. That’s one of the biggest gifts we can give her.
By TheBlogger
July 18, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this
One part of your article is absolutely correct. It seems that everybody knows how to “fix” schools. Everybody is suddenly an education expert. I feel it is the only field where this is true.
When I have asked people why they feel that they are an expert, some reply because they have spent many years themselves in the schools (as students). Do they also feel that they are medical experts? After all, haven’t they also spent years going to doctors? Do they also feel that they are legal experts? Many of them watched years of LA Law or Court TV.
The first major problem we have is that we listen too much to these non-experts in education.
The second major problem that we have is we expect schools to do everything for everyone. What a recipe for disaster! No institution could ever hope to accomplish that! But, we want schools to feed kids breakfest and lunch - and it better be healthy. We want schools to offer all types of sports. We want schools to offer all types of clubs. We want schools to offer music/band programs. We want schools to offer art classes, dance classes, computer classes, and so on. We want schools to teach kids how to behave properly. We want schools to provide free transportation for our kids right from our front door. Schools need to provide security on campus. Oh yeah, and we finally want schools to teach the basics (math, science, English, and social studies). If we went back in time, I would bet that the fall of schools began when society started to require more of schools rather than just teaching the basics.
The third major problem that we have with schools is society. Schools cannot fix the ills of society. Too many parents are not parents. Sure, they spit out a kid, but they have not and do not want to parent their kids at all. These kids are not just brought up by TV any more. They are brought up by violent video games, by cell phones, by the internet, and so on….. and the “parents” allow this. Schools cannot fix this problem.
By Michael
July 18, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this
I am a 6th grade teacher and I spend 98% of my time on 2% of the students. Throw the bad kids out! These parents are the ones are that are illegal or live in apartments any way.
By MrLiberty
July 18, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this
See, even “just a teacher” gets the true nature of the government school system.
Their “customer” is the collectivist state known as Fulton County and all of its collectivist elements. Should it surprise anyone that your child is educated to be a “good citizen” meaning obedient, taxpaying, worker bee with no individual thoughts and no desire to question authority.
Your child needs to be taught the value of learning so that they can expand their mind beyond the limits of our current limited experience. They need to learn how to grow as a person, not just learn enough to do a job. They need to learn that they are an individual with individual talents and skills and that they are not part of a collective like some Soviet state. The government schools are not in any way shape or form designed to promote that premise. They cannot afford to. Educated citizens are the greatest risk to the establishment there is.
A conspiracy? You bet. Any you are a willing participant who willingly gove up their children in furtherance of the conspiracy.
By TheBlogger
July 18, 2008 1:44 PM | Link to this
I forgot to answer the main question - what is the recipe for success? In no particular order….
By BATMAN
July 18, 2008 2:09 PM | Link to this
Chronic behavior problems must be addressed. If that is addressed, you will see that the US has one of the best educational systems in the world.
By thomas
July 18, 2008 2:28 PM | Link to this
Beck, the reason people make statements like that is because they have hate and bigotry in their hearts.
By Steve
July 18, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this
Easy fix. Shut down the schools and send the kids to their parents for an education. Or, let the people that have all the fixes and answers go teach.
By thomas
July 18, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
I don’t understand it.
When we discuss how to improve education, the only solutions given by the vast majority of people in this forum (OF WHICH, THE FOLLOWING MAY BE TRUE- THEY ARE NOT PART OF ANY EDUCATIONAL ESTABLISHMENT, HENCE DON’T HAVE A CLUE AS TO WHAT’S REALLY GOING ON IN SCHOOLS AND SECONDLY, WAS PROBABLY A LOUSY STUDENT WHEN THEY WERE IN SCHOOL) is to “throw the bad kids out.”
Who are the bad kids? I suspect that “bad kids” and “troublemakers” may simply be a euphemism for minority youth (blacks in particular). Instead of sputtering on about “kicking troublemakers out”, why don’t you just say that you would more overjoyed and thrilled to death to open your local newspaper and read that all blacks are being put in concentration camps or confined to a restricted zone. Oh wait— that already exists. Our nation is more segregated now than in 1970. The only difference is that blacks are legally allowed to pass through a white neighborhood. They just can’t live there.
Your solution for the “illegal aliens”, I meant Latinos, is for them to be permitted to stay in this country only to serve as slaves, not even indentured servitude. To hades with their children or families. They are fit only to serve us and do with as we please.
Forums like this allow people to show their truth colors. The question how have is how many of the people who have posted here actually teachers. I suspect that we many very well have a few “teachers” who actually work in schools made up mostly of blacks and Latinos. If that’s the case, it may explain why the instruction is so poor in minority schools.
A wise man once said that you can’t teach someone you don’t care about.
By luvs2teach
July 18, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
teach45 - your 11:31 said “stop making excuses.” I wasn’t - I was saying that we are trying to solve an urban problem with middle class answers, and that’s not going to work - we need to think “outside the desk,” so to speak. I wish my original post had worked because it explained my position much better. It’s not about raising or lowering expectations - it’s about shifting them, for both sides.
By Tony
July 18, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this
Sit down, shut up, and do your home work. The more we try to do something ealse the lower test scores drop.
By flipper
July 18, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this
It’s easy… school choice. Then the ability grouping and everything else will follow. Folks with half a bran will not send their high achievers to a school that does not ability group… to the politically correct schools that think an educator can actually teach over an 80 point IQ span will simply fade away or be filled with low IQ kids, so programs can be designed to help them…Either way… the low IQ kids will be better served…. as will the high achievers.
By Tony
July 18, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this
At all cost avoid MACE look at what they have done in Clayton County.
By thomas
July 18, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this
My solution to improve education would be to put videotape cameras in every classroom and have the videos accessible to the public. Let us watch them on something like YouTube.
YOU WOULD BE SURPRISED AS TO WHAT REALLY GOES ON SCHOOLS. I used to work at an elementary school that served a majority black and Latino population. Some things went on there, that if the public actually knew what went on, people would be wearing orange jumpsuits. Children were assaulted by TEACHERS— under the guise of “redirecting” them, of course. The verbal and emotional abuse metted out by some of these “teachers” was incredible. Some of these cowards, I meant women, used intimidation, insults, and putdowns as their key methods of student/teacher interaction.
Others did nothing at all. Some sat on their behinds ALL DAY LONG and gave out seat work. In fact, when I looked in many of these classrooms, the “teachers” were on their a_ses behind their desks. ALL DAY, EVERY DAY.
This is a school on the Needs Improvement list.
Funny thing— Some people are so quick to spew venom and hate towards the children, but the children are not responsible for the operation a school. The parents are not responsible for the instruction in a classroom. The principal and teachers are.
What is the excuse when the children are well behaved and the academic results are still poor? Will the lie now be that the children are just ignorant and dumb, probably by genetics? Or will we tell the truth that some people are just poor teachers?
By Dr. Craig Spinks
July 18, 2008 3:12 PM | Link to this
Among several other things, making schools work requires savvy, extreme industry and courage, three traits noticeably absent among the vast majority of public school administrators with whom I’ve had recent contact.
By jessica
July 18, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
good teachers (who don’t just teach for the CRCT), smaller classrooms, good/recent equipment (books,computers etc), not always sticking to the mandated curriculum, good adminstration, well-kept buildings.
By MrLiberty
July 18, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this
The Blogger presents probably the best example of why schools are an abject failure. He presents a list that everyone can agree with but one that cannot ever exist in the world of government-run education. It is just a simple problem of mutual exclusivity.
Answer these questions please:
Why would every kid want to learn and see the value in education? It barely costs their parents any money for them to go to school and the laws force them to go. So we can already see that many will not go along with this.
Why should parents be involved? Its not thier money. If they are unhappy with the school they can’t go somewhere else., and the government wastes fo much money both parents must work outside the home.
Where are you going to find teachers like you describe. There is no incentive for great work and no punishment for great stupidity. Most can’t be fired, most take up teaching so they can have the summers off and good pension, and teachers and public adminstration majors score the lowest on standardized testing. There is no mechanisn built into the socialist school system that will ever adequately be able to reward the deserving and punish the worthless.
Why should school adminstration support the teachers? Administrators dont’ have to answer to the parents, why would they ever answer to the teachers? More failure equals more money. More regulations equals more administration. See the problem?
Where are proper facilities ever going to come from? Have you ever looked at bond initiatives on the ballot? If they are for schools, they are typically just for construction, never maintenance. Same with federal monies. Just look at the castles they build for these kids (or for the photo ops). No school needs to look like that. Some of the most educated people in our history learned on their own kitchen tables or in small one-room school houses.
Why would the local community wnat to support the schools? Peo[le vote with their dollard, and from what I have seen, there is not a single government school worthy of my support. And what if that demographic changes.
And what is proper funding??? How about $5000 per student, how about %10,000 per student. Washington DC spends evven more and has one of the worst school systems in the nation and theyspend nearly $14000 per student.
Private schools on the other hand are real businesses. They need to please the customer (the parent and teacher) or the money leaves. They need good teachers and they need to keep them.
A business knows how to deliver what the customer what=
By luvs2teach
July 18, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this
thomas - to your 2:47 about “throwing out the bad kids” - I don’t think everyone just sees black and brown kids in that.
Maybe I’m naive, or haven’t lived in the South long enough, but when I talk to family and friends up north, they’ll say the same thing - and they live in predominantly white neighborhoods (blue and pink collar, working and low-middle class, Irish, Italian, and Polish, mostly).
It’s the money, honey.
By MrLiberty
July 18, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this
Don’t throw out ANY KID!
Throw out the government and deal directly with the owner/operator of the business you will be employing. There should be at least one school in every subdivision .
If there is money to be had, even the worst kids will get a great education.
By mom&teacher
July 18, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this
I agree with luvs. I have taught for 10 years in predominantly black schools. My worst behaved students have often been white. My life (and those of the rest of the students) would be a lot easier if those students were removed. But, you see, their right to an education supercedes the rights of the other 20+ students in the class to learn in peace and get the attention they need and deserve…
By middleschoolteacher
July 18, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
Let’s start with this statement from Laura:
If lots of people know what it takes to improve schools, why are so few succeeding?
Who says schools are not succeeding? I don’t use the formula from NCLB as the proof of failure. I know what happens in my classroom and it doesn’t match what most of you are posting here. Yes, I deal with a few students more than others, but at the end virtually all of them show tremendous progress as measured by the CRCT. I know, many of you don’t like that test, but it is the criteria for measurement as established by the state.
I love what I do and that includes working with seventh graders. I want all of them to learn the concepts and and to show gains in maturity through the year.
For me in middle school, give me a team of teachers who want to be there and who are willing to work with the students and the parents. Watch what we do then as a team!
By luvs2teach
July 18, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
thomas and MrLiberty (and anyone else) - food for thought…
I was just reading a message board on MSN and the topic was a study done on kids being thrown out of pre-school - all private. Most of the kids were being thrown out for behavioral issues. The message board postings were crazy! Lots of blame on both sides.
Can you imagine what would happen if we actually went completely private and schools could actually be selective about their clientele? Remember, if we’re all private, parents aren’t going to be the only ones who get to choose - there’s definitely an appeal to that.
BTW - While I didn’t necesarily “homeschool” I always reinforced at home what they learned at school - and then some! I never left it up to the school to completely educate my child - it’s a bare minimum at best.
By MrLiberty
July 18, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this
The only money that may matter is the amount the parents make - for the quality of education has nothing to do with how much the government is wasting. Don’t even bother going there - the statistics and charts bear it out quite clearly.
And even the parents dollars don’t mean half as much as their level of concern. The greatest tragedy is that blacks and folks of color are confined to poor performing government schools by what can only be called “white guilt.” I offer up logical, solid and sound alternatives to this collectivist failure and everyone says “but what about everyone else’s kids” You know, screw my kids of course, what about the kids who wouldn’t go to school? I ofter wonder if their kids know how little they care about them?
By Truth March
July 18, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this
Education. It’s about curriculum.
I would start in first grade with the electromagnetic spectrum. Teach these kids that the light from a lightbulb is of the same substance (electromagnetic radiation) as the light from an atomic bomb, or an x-ray machine at the dentist, or a cosmic ray flying through space.
it’s radiation, watson.
Unless we take our children out of the dark ages and into modern quantum physics, then we are doomed to see roving bands of morons shooting up the town and going, “Duh, I’m a Crip!”
I’ll bet the members of any school board in any county in metro atlanta dont know what light is. Light. Start there, and forget about who discovered america in 1492.
You horrid educators have been teaching children NONSENSE!!
By jim d
July 18, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this
What do you think gets in the way of improving our schools?
Crap like this from schools
By wsj
July 18, 2008 4:37 PM | Link to this
This topic has been discussed every year for years. Maybe we have to accept the fact that there is no answer. If we haven’t figured it out by now, we probably never will.
But whatever measures are done next, I’m sure the proposed solutions will include spending more money.
By luvs2teach
July 18, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this
Mr. Liberty - the money the parents make is the money I was talking about - throwing more money at the problem is not the answer, at least not in my book. Why are the worst performing schools spending the most money in many cases?
Truth March - actually as a physical science teacher the EM spectrum is part of my curriculum. EM radiation however, is not generally thought to be matter (or a substance as you said), but energy. The wavelength of said radiation, though, is different depending on whether you are talking about the visible light from a light bulb, or the high-energy short waves from an atomic bomb, or the lower-energy, longer waves that cook your Orville Reddenbacher’s.
By luvs2teach
July 18, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this
jim d - I saw that story yesterday and I nearly threw something at the TV. What a crock!!! Thanks a lot, stupid school system, for making my job defending my chosen profession that much more difficult. Stupid, stupid, stupid!!!
There was nothing wrong with the kid’s hair, for one - on a girl it wouldn’t cause anyone to look twice, and knowing he was native, it made sense. Two, how could it possibly be as “distracting” as other things I’ve seen. Finally, the school superintendent, Mr. Rhodes, showed that he was too ignorant to stay in authority - come on, who doesn’t know that the majority of Native American traditions, story, and history are passed down orally?
Argh!
By jim d
July 18, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this
Luv,
to be honest Here’s my take on his even forcing the religious issue.
The practice of cutting ones hair short is first mentioned in the bible in St. Paul’s letter in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 which in part states
1 Corinthians 11:4-7
4: Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head.
5: But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.
6: For if a woman does not cover her head, let her “also have her hair cut off;” but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head.
7: For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; ——
So a strong argument can be made that the practice of short hair is basically a Christian practice to comply with St. Paul’s letter.
IMHO, Government operated Schools enforcing a Christian practice absolutely crosses the line of separation.
These folks need to get a life.
By ktw
July 18, 2008 5:07 PM | Link to this
@WFC…….I checked the Fulton Co. Schools website and nowhere on the organizational flow chart is Robert E. Burke’s name listed. Linda Anderson (from Gwinnett Schools) is the Deputy Superintendent of Instruction and Patty Rooks is the Associate Superintendent of Curriculum. If Robert E. Burke is as bad as you say he is, maybe the new superintendent Cindy Loe (also from Gwinnett) saw that and replaced him. Linda Anderson, on the other hand, knows a lot about curriculum and instruction. She was a well-respected principal in Gwinnett. Cindy Loe was associate superintendent of curr. and inst. before moving to Fulton County.
By luvs2teach
July 18, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this
jim d - interesting take - I didn’t even think of that. I know that we have a “no headcovering” rule as part of our dress code - usually that means ballcaps and doo-rags. We have a small population of Muslim students, and the girls are allowed to wear their headcoverings.
To be honest, I’m not even sure why we have that rule, unless it’s a holdover from the old days of wearing hats (which were always taken off indoors, I believe, at least by men). I know as a Marine, we never wore our covers inside (I think Embassy duty is an exception, but as a female, I never got to find out, lol - Marines don’t salute indoors either, generally). My only problem with ballcaps (other than the fact I find them unfashionable for locations other than the ballpark or beach) is when they steal each other’s caps - then it becomes a behavior problem.
By jim d
July 18, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
FYI Luv,
Paul’s letter was penned around 53 to 57 AD and Apache legend has it that they descended from the 28 helpers brought by the creator to populate the world at the time of creation.
By jim d
July 18, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this
Luv,
Pauls letter in 6: states For if a woman does not cover her head, let her “also have her hair cut off;” but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved,
Which would indicate that men were to have their hair cut or shaved since he states the ALSO when referring to women. In my opinon this then becomes a Christian practice and crosses the line when enforced by a government agency such as our schools.
By thomas
July 18, 2008 5:46 PM | Link to this
One a slightly happier note, does anyone know when the state will release the list of schools making AYP? Last year they released a “preliminary” list around this time and “final” reports at the end of September. I am dying to know.
By catlady
July 18, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this
Earlier posters on race and school behavior: we have no black kids in our system and yet we still have some thugs. Almost all our thugs are white, although a few Latinos are trying to get in on the action, too. Thugism is not a racial thing.
To the person asking about teaching assignments, at our school the newbies get the middle or slightly above middle kids their first year. After that, they are in the pond like the rest of us. Our teachers of the bottom-most non sped kids are always among the most experienced, and almost always ask for the spots.
I am beginning to come around to privatizing the schools. Then, teacher salaries would rise, because teachers could negotiate their contracts. Then they could be paid for their relative expertise and the hassle they face. More hassle= more pay. For example, while physics teachers would seem to be able to command a high salary, since there are few of them needed and since they tend to get the top students, actually their worth would not be so great. A good remedial third grade teacher would be in high demand.
Privatized schools could still kick out or refuse to admit kids, based on their needs and problems. If parents cannot find a school that will take or keep their child, they might be more likely to discipline or help the child.
Any parent who did not convince a school to take little Johnny would have to provide the instruction themselves. Another incentive to help little Johnny manage his behavior. The system might generously supply a curricular guide for the parent.
Give every parent their school tax paid (via a credit) and let them shop around for a school. Parents would of course provide the transportation and lunch, and be expected to come and clean the bathrooms, sweep the halls, and clean up the vomit. Sounds good to me. Give folks a reason to have a vested interest. It would sure cut out the bellyaching and excuse-making, and that might be worth quite a bit.
By WhatWillLauraDo?
July 18, 2008 6:32 PM | Link to this
This is the same Laura Diamond who refuses to FOLLOW UP on the story of the Atlanta Public Schools teacher who was brutally assaulted? In a case where it was alleged that it took ten full minutes for help to arrive? In a case where it was alleged that before the system finally took action, the student was allowed to come back to school and brag about what she did?
What are you, a reporter, or a shill for the local school system?
We know which one don’t we Laura? That’s why you won’t come on here and address it.
By love my 4 kids
July 18, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this
Well, the recipe for success for our family is free market education. 99% of the problems listed above, just don’t exist for us.
By Julie
July 18, 2008 9:50 PM | Link to this
Students absolutely should be grouped by ability! If they get tracked into a low group because they refuse to behave or do their work, then maybe their lazy parents will force them to step up! IF the kid is in the lower group because he or she can’t do any better -well so what? Not everyone is Einstein! We have to have ditch diggers and check out clerks in our society too. So many so-called “bleeding hearts” look to Europe for everything advanced and wonderful, and guess what -EUROPEAN SCHOOLS TRACK ACCORDING TO ABILITY! I think they’re completely correct. We also need to permanently expel students who refuse to behave -and do so at a fairly early age. Make it their parent’s problem to have to find an alternative education source. It would be amazing to see how our schools would shape up if we would start really throwing the problems back in the laps of the parents who created most of them to begin with. I taught high school for 4 years -believe me -I know what I’m talking about. AND we DO need teacher’s unions here. A lot would change if a teacher got to have a union rep during certain parent-teacher conferences.
By thomas
July 18, 2008 10:26 PM | Link to this
I don’t understand the hate and venom spewed by so many people here, particularly teachers. I thought teachers entered the profession to HELP children. Instead you want to keep howling about throwing kids out.
I think you teachers who keep saying “throw ‘em out” became teachers just for the summers off.
By em
July 18, 2008 11:21 PM | Link to this
Thomas, I AM one of those teachers who entered the profession to TEACH. I left a lucrative career because I felt something was missing. What has become more the norm since my career change twelve years ago are overcrowded classrooms, inept administrators, inept colleagues, low standards for schools and colleges of education, apathetic students and parents, an alphabet soup of federal mandates, a shift from teaching content to “teaching to the test,” an emphasis on extracurricular activities especially football, and the curriculum du jour touted by the latest and greatest education expert who collects their thousands and then moves on. If I were not so close to retirement, I would return to my previous career. With all of this crap, I still bring my “A” game to class every single day. By the way, while my “problem” students are few they are a distraction. I spend approximately 75% of my time dealing with 10% of the problem students I have. They take classroom time away from those who are wanting and trying to learn. Silly me, I always thought the majority ruled.
By Lee
July 19, 2008 10:19 AM | Link to this
That didn’t take long.
I advocated grouping by ability but stated that the main obstacle would be when the minorities were disproportionately represented in the slower classes, the race warlords would have a field day crying racism.
To which Beck and Thomas quickly called me a racist for even suggesting such a thing.
Nevermind every piece of research that has been conducted on IQ as well as CRCT results, SAT results, etc, etc.
Hence, the problem. America can no longer have an honest dialog about the differences between the races because of the politically correct pathology that has swept this country.
To first solve a problem, you must first be able to talk about the problem. The second someone suggests blacks may not do as well as whites in academic subjects, they get shouted down with cries of racism.
Here we are nearly 60 years after Brown vs. Board and blacks still lag behind their white counterparts.
…. and nobody wants to talk about the reasons why.
By Teacher, Too
July 19, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this
I’m in agreement about ability grouping. It doesn’t have to be a sentence for an entire school career; students can work hard and move into a different group as they master skills.
At times, I get so discouraged that the perception of public school teachers is that they are lazy, stupid people who can’t do anything other than “teach”. There are many, many hardworking teachers who are highly qualified to teach (not just by the federal definition,either). I take pride in what I do, knowing that I challenge and set very high expectations- I think the way I teach and the content that I teach is comparable to a private school education. Do I stray from the “prescribed” curriculum? Sure I do- I just don’t advertise it. I teach what I know my students need in terms of grammar, vocabulary, and writing, research, and critical thinking.
So, if it takes privatizing education, fine. I know I can be hired. I have an advanced degree that is not from a drive-thru on-line “university”. I speak standard English, dress and behave professionally, and I know my content area.
Regarding poorly behaving children- yes, when the behavior is so out-of-control, then they do need to be removed. You know, when they curse you in front of the entire class, when they are having sex in the bathroom, when they are fighting and it’s a regular occurance… these are the children that don’t belong in a regular school. Sorry, Thomas, these children need more help than the regular school can give them.
By catlady
July 19, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this
I also think students should be grouped. I won’t say “ability”, however, but by “achievement” (which frequently mirrors native ability, but not always). Kids can move up when grouped by achievement, and nothing is set in stone. It also sometimes serves as an encouragement. “Hey, I want to be with those people doing those neat things” so kids work harder. When you say ability, well, ability is pretty well set by the time a kid comes to school. Not much you can do to change native ability. But achievement, on the other hand, is more fluid. A hardworking kid can move up to a higher group. Give kids a goal to work for. And don’t hold back the kids that already have achieved the skill; let them go on to higher achievement. I have seen parents also be motivated by the desire for their child to be in a higher achieving group. Years ago, I had posters in the hall showing who had achieved which goals. Parents would come in (for parties, meetings, etc) and see that their little precious was lagging behind and—boom—little precious was usually quickly brought up to speed on that skill. (Don’t know if you can do that in this PC/FERPA world we live in). I have done it lately by letting kids choose “secret names”; then, only those who know the name know who is lagging behind. Everyone wants to be at the top, at least among the younger children. And “achievement” is much less racially loaded. As a teacher, give me an average child for whom achievment is important, rather than a lazy, high IQ kid. I can do so much more with the former.
On the topic of behavior: just a few “dismissals” , starting early in the school year, would go a long way in improvement in the schools. First, it would get those who will not behave out. Then, it would give good reason to those who like to follow the bad actors. When kids and parents see that there are firm consequences (NO excuses) to not meeting behavioral expecations, the kids who feed off the truly poorly-behaved’s antics would be much more likely NOT to follow the Dark Side. Schools might then be returned to places of learning. Our principal likes to save up the consequences to the end of the year. As a result, we have 8 months of increasingly bad behavior before she will finally put someone in ISS or OSS. We could save 8 months of agony by using those consequences from the beginning. It is like that sociological study: if the police crack down on panhandling, vagrancy, public urination, broken windows, and windshieldwashers, they see less serious crimes committed. Why? Because it shows the community is serious about its quality of life.
By TheBlogger
July 19, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
I am shocked and disheartened by how many people here think school CHOICE will matter one bit.
I believe that these people are likely the ones that already sent their kids to private schools and are really only looking for some sort of “refund” to help pay for the private school tuition.
School CHOICE will not help at all. The reasons have been listed repeatedly on the School Matters blog. No one can list a true and valid reason why choice could possibly make any positive difference without even more of a negative impact. Most of those wanting school CHOICE don’t even know exactly what it is they want!
I guess I really should not be shocked at the number of selfish and idiotic people that there are….
By thomas
July 19, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
Ok people, last time-
Most of the people who WAIL, CRY, and SCREAM for “heterogenus” or “ability grouping” are generally middle class (usually they are white, but may be black, Latino, or another ethnic group) and, due to their exclusionary, elitist mindset, don’t want their children associating with children outside their social group.
This also applies to teachers, who generally are from the middle class and have the same attitudes towards people who are not like them as the general population. In the course of my teaching career, I have found that many teachers (or it is just the teachers down south) are arrogant and have a sense of entitlement. You are not entitled to have a class full of middle class white children, whose parents have done all the work for you. This group of students is actually a minority in this state. There are many more students from poor and working class white families, blacks, Latinos, Asians, East Indians, and Arabs than rich white kids.
The whole “ability grouping”/”gifted” argument is hogwash. It’s all about separation and segregation. The sooner all of us come out of the dark ages of bigotry, hate, racism, and classism, the better off we will be.
By simon
July 19, 2008 3:55 PM | Link to this
I have found that many teachers (or it is just the teachers down south) are arrogant and have a sense of entitlement. You are not entitled to have a class full of middle class white children, whose parents have done all the work for you.
And those are the kids just about anyone can teach - no teaching certificate needed. The true worth of teachers is how well they can teach difficult-to-teach students, isn’t it?
By Lee
July 19, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this
Ok Thomas, one last time….
When we finally wised up and placed the youngest in private school, her Spanish class was comprised of 6th, 7th, and 8th graders. In the 8th grade, there were some 7th graders in her math class and a small number of 8th graders “went up the hill” to attend 9th grade math classes.
When we say “group by ability,” what we are saying is to arrange the class structure to provide the appropriate level of instruction per the child’s ability.
That’s not racist, or elitist, or any other adjective you’ve been spouting. That’s just wanting the schools to provide our children with the appropriate level of instruction.
Teachers actually teaching. Students actually learning.
What a concept.
By Old School
July 19, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this
simon, may I please count myself among the “worthy” teachers? EVERY class I teach is a mixture of high to low achievers, 9th to 12th graders, impoverished to wealthy, signed up for the course to placed in it, gifted to special needs, highly motivated to completely indifferent, male and female, well-behaved to omigod! and all ethnic groups in our community are represented in all of the above pairings.
My mission is to get all of them job ready with the entry level skills needed to be certified apprentice drafters while meeting the expectations of local, state, and national agencies.
The one thing you will NOT hear from me is whining and you will NOT witness any sense of entitlement in my actions or attitude. I love what I do and I do it very well. No, I don’t reach everyone but it isn’t from a lack of trying or an indifference to whatever the students bring to the table. I certainly hope I am not arrogant because there are others who could surely do my job better.
I will say that some of my most difficult challenges have come from those “middle class white children” you seem to think “just about anyone can teach.” Too often they seem to be leading double live where their school lives are not at all what is seen at home.
And while I dislike painting with a broad brush, I firmly believe that the number of teachers and instructors in Georgia’s public schools who are doing a great job is far larger that the total of merely “good” or “acceptable” teachers and the number who should never step foot in a classroom again. Those great teachers just don’t sell newspapers with their stories of success.
By TheBlogger
July 19, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this
Thomas and Simon…
Most every teacher I have ever met really do want the best for their students. How in the world can you or anyone think that the best for students is to sit in a class with wildly different abilities?
In one academic class that I have taught, I had 6 learning disability students (and some very severely) with 7 gifted students. I was supposed to handle and help and teach those disabled at the same time as challenge the gifted. Oh yeah, don’t forgot about the other 20 more ‘average’ students. How can any one person be expected to teach every student well under those circumstances?
The underlying reason (most) people/teachers want to group students by abilities is to simply service every group better. I know of no teacher that wants or expects to group by race or by socioeconomic status, or any such thing.
And, I would propose that most teachers would be thrilled to have a single group in a class - regardless of which group it is!
The funny thing is this… it already happens in the upper grades and also in college. The “bright” students take the “more difficult” classes while the “less bright” students take the easier classes.
By Old School
July 19, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this
I taught gifted students for over 8 summers in GHP (Governors’ Honors Program) at VSU and found that, even in a program for the best of the best, the cream rises to the top and there are those less inclined to do the work even in among the top students. I had several students over the years in that program that just didn’t want to put any effort into it because there were no grades, no punishments, no tangible incentives/rewards… only what self-motivation and personal determination brought. There was even one student in my minor class who refused to do anything except read and listen to music which disconnected her from all the rest of us. We just let her be and proceeded to have a great, inventive, creative, and interactive experience.
Returning home, I tried some of the activities on my own mixed level/interest classes and had more wonderful experiences. Some of the “cream” turned out to be my biggest “troublemakers.” Still happens that way!
By thomas
July 19, 2008 9:38 PM | Link to this
Now I will say this— Some teachers really do believe that “grouped” classes would be easier to teach. They believe this because they think that if the kids were all on the same level, they wouldn’t have to differentiate the instruction.
But what you find out is that when you put all the lower level students in one class, it makes that class much more difficult to teach.
Also the game is different for elementary, middle, and high school. I have never taught high school. My background is elementary. From my experience, heterogenusly grouped classes are ideal because you have a balance of abilities, etc in each class. You don’t have “good classes”, composed of mostly “high achievers” and “gifted” or “bad classes” (I have actually heard teachers and even principals use these terms before- especially the “good class” moniker when talking a class stacked with gifted and high achieving students) made up of lower level students, SPED, ESOL, and some discipline problems.
By luvs2teach
July 20, 2008 2:17 AM | Link to this
I gotta say, as someone who has taught gifted, SPED inclusion, on-level, and ESOL classes that first, gifted classes are not “good” - they’re kids just like everyone else and they have plenty of behavior issues - thinking that a gifted class is automatically a well-behaved class is a huge misconception. Second, my SPED and ESOL classes are the most fun to teach - because I get to actually TEACH.
For middle school, it is much easier to have leveled classes and be able to target your 50 minutes of instruction than to try to differentiate for every period - by the time you explain to each group what they need to do, the class is over.
Finally, studies have shown that for gifted kids in particular, ability grouping IS better. Check out Hoagie’s Gifted or the National Association of Gifted children.
By WFC
July 20, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this
I guess I’m selfish as hell. I don’t want my bright son in a class with dozens of dolts. End of discussion.
By WFC
July 20, 2008 9:34 AM | Link to this
KTW: I hope that you are right about Bob Burke being gone but I doubt it. I was a teacher and administrator in Fulton County for 20 years (William Casey) so I’ll call some friends to verify your info. Good news, if true.
By WFC
July 20, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this
KTW: go to Fulton Co. Schools, click on directory, click on academics… Bob Burke’s picture pops up. I guess that Cindy hasn’t dumped him yet! Also, watch Fulton Board meetings on Comcast. He’s a regular.
By Lee
July 20, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this
“But what you find out is that when you put all the lower level students in one class, it makes that class much more difficult to teach.”
No, what makes the “lower level” students difficult to teach is when they are passed along from grade to grade and have not developed an understanding of the concepts taught in the lower grades. If they are grouped together and provided a level of instruction commensurate with their ability, then most of the “difficulties” will disappear.
“…thinking that a gifted class is automatically a well-behaved class is a huge misconception”
Academic ability and behavior are two distinct concepts. While there may be some generalities that are true, the two should not be confused.
By simon
July 20, 2008 2:36 PM | Link to this
Blogger:
I didn’t think I said anything about ability grouping - I just areed with Thomas about some teachers’ desire to have only a certain types of students.
However, I tend to favor heterogeneous grouping. If nothing else, the idea of ability grouping is an elusive myth to me. There are two issues. First, how do we accurately assess children’s ability? If that assessment is flawed, we really don’t have “ability groups.” The second issue is you will always have a range. No one child will be exactly at the same level as another. So, what is an acceptable range of abilities in an “ability group”? How do we establish such a range - specially when we don’t have a sound assessment instrument (issue 1)?
By Lee
July 20, 2008 8:44 PM | Link to this
“how do we accurately assess children’s ability?”
There’s an assessment done every nine weeks or so. Starting in the first grade, at the end of the first nine weeks, the student’s performance is assessed. Those that are on track move on. Those that are lagging get looped back around and repeat the first nine weeks curriculum.
You may also have the situation where a student is doing fine in reading, but needs extra help in math. You allow him to continue on track in reading but let him repeat the math.
You keep doing this year after year and the ability groups will sort themselves out.
For me, this is a preferable to letting the student languish for the entire school year and then force feed him into the second grade - only to continue to spiral out of the system.
Basically, we are only pushing the high school / college model down to the lower grades.
By TheBlogger
July 20, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this
Simon,
When I was in elemetary school (and I realize that I am showing my age here), students were grouped by ability in every grade. There was the high, average, and low. There was no stigma attached to being in any class - or I should rather say that there was equal stigma in each level. I was in the “high” and did get teased a couple of times for being a “nerd.”
Lee is correct in that there are and have been regular assessments that could be used. Also, any teacher can honestly tell you which student is high, average, and low - pretty much on the mark. As in my day, students could move from one level to another as their level of ability may change as they grow. No one is “stuck” in any level. And, as long as they learn the basic content and pass, they can be promoted from one grade to the next.
What this accomplishes is a learning environment for the benefit of all students and for every individual student. The high students can be challenged with more difficult work. The low students will have more lessons helping them remediate on whatever their weaknesses may be.
Also, in my day, the disabled were in the “special ed class.” There were few students in that class (about 10) and so the teacher gave them a lot of individual attention. In addition to a teacher, there was also a couple of teacher assistants to help with the severe cases (physical and mental). I have no reasonable idea why this was abandoned.
Now, a single teacher is expected to help all levels of students in a single class. Often, this does include disabled students as well as gifted students (not the same thing as high level). The reality is that a sane teacher would simply teach to the lowest common denominator - and present the basics to give all students a prayer to pass the CRCT.
Mixing classes in a given grade level simply cannot be a good thing if one would just think about it a bit.
By jim d
July 21, 2008 7:08 AM | Link to this
So Blogger,
You find liberty shocking?
Has it occured to you that this liberty places responsibility back on the students and parents?
By simon
July 21, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this
Lee, you are assuming the assessment teachers are using are reliable, and that’s a big assumption.
On the other hand, as the blogger says, I think many teachers can identify really good students. However, their judgment on “average” and “low” are very much suspect. Too much of the judgment is influenced by students’ behavior. Quiet students, who don’t cause any problem may be judged to be “average” while students who constantly ask questions or speak out without raising their hands, etc., are often considered disruptive and “low” achievers.
So, just the fact that teachers give regular assessments does not automatically mean that the classifications based on such assessments are valid.
I think you are partially correct that “You keep doing this year after year and the ability groups will sort themselves out.” But, it’s not the ability groups that are sorting themselves out, but the students simply matching the labels and expectations of the teachers.
By old school doc
July 30, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this
I don’t know why elementary schools do not feature tracking. Most neighborhoods and schools here in Atlanta are still essentially segregated, so you should not see too much of a racial bias in the trackings. ( ie an all black school will have black students in large numbers in the honors as well as remedial classes) Personally, I think all kids would benefit from tracking. Identify, through some sort of very standardized testing who needs speicial help, and them trhow every resource possible at them so that the kids can succeed. Also, to kids whose families have already exposed their kids to learning, why not go the extra mile to turn out superstar students?
I say all of this as a frustrated parent of a very bright first grader ion the public schools (for now). THere are abour 8 kids in his class that are SHARP. I do not know anything about these kids’ families, only that these students are bright and catch on to concepts quickly. Unfortunately, these kids, who could all be future rocket-scientists, get little extra stimulation, and the teacher is so busy leaving no child left behind. It makes me sad, and it is a disservice to these really sharp children