Get Schooled

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

If the parent has truly done their job, a 5 yo SHOULD be ready for THIRD grade, not just kindergarten. Seriously. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to teach a kid that 1 + 1 = 2 or even that 12 + 19 = 31.

By RandolphCountyParent

July 14, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

Jeff How many kids do you have. Wait let me guess…NONE! BTW how long were you a teacher and what type job do you have that allows you the free time to post your ramblings?

By catlady

July 14, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

20 year (former) kindergarten teacher here. I would seriously consider holding a child out if HE turned 5 after May 1, or if he/she had been premature, or if there was an indication that the child was developing at a slower than average pace in terms of emotions and attention span. I am not in support of holding kids back so they will be the biggest, better athletes, etc.

In my experience, summer birthday girls are usually okay (all other things being equal). Summer birthday boys frequently have problems. However, children develop on their own individual schedules!

I had 2 September babies (girl and boy). They both would have been fine to start school right before they were five, but they were also very strong students and LEADERS by having to wait. I also had an August girl. I thought LONG and HARD about her starting as a barely 5 year old. I consulted her nursery school teachers (they thought she should start) and asked teacher friends to observe her. She was fine: an honor grad, Miss Everything, but she really had to push herself to “keep up” with her more mature friends.

I taught before the date changed, when kids could start as 4 1/2 year olds, as well as after the date changed to Sept 1. Did you know that the state found that something like 90% of the kids held back in 1st grade were those babies, those fall birthday kids (before the date changed), and something like 70% who dropped out of high school were the babies? This is according to a conference I went to in 1975—very old data.

Back then, Cherokee County had a pre first class for those who needed more time after kindergarten and before first grade. Other states have similar programs for kids who need a little more time.

Wouldn’t it be nice if we looked at readiness individually instead of just by date? I have seen quite a few students, even older ones, that I could guess whether they were summer birthdays just by watching them in action.

By catlady

July 14, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I can’t wait to see your kids!

My son could READ on 4th grade level in kindergarten, but he was certainly not ready for 4th grade!

True story: when he was about 20 months old, he could recognize the numerals to 12. One day, I was trying to show him about adding, and I showed him one finger from one hand, and put another finger from my other hand next to it and said, “So, what is one plus one?” His answer: eleven!

Another true story: when he was in first grade he was reading (with good comprehension) at fifth grade level. His teacher, a first year teacher, was at a loss for things to do with him so she got a fifth grade Xerox copy book and had him worth though it. He could read it just fine, but one selection showed his actual immaturity: He had read two pages about leaders for world peace—Ghandi, Dag Hamerskold, etc—and answered factual questions based on the reading. Fine. Then, came the thinking question: As a citizen of the world, what could you do to promote world peace? And my precious six year old replied, “I’d fight for it.” End of story.

By Gwinnett Educator

July 14, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

I used to hate the Sept 1st cut off (because I am a Dec baby), however, now that I am a mother (and having taught pre-k a few yrs ago) I know that although all the children can be 5, that they are in different stages of being 5. ( I know that is a seriously long ..maybe a run on sentence).

When my daughter started day care last yr, she had just turned 1. She was in a class with 1 yrs old, however she was the baby of the class.

Jeff there are usually differences in the child that turned 5 that summer and the ones that are turning 6 that fall.

My daughter is a summer baby (July 22nd) and will be a fresh 5 starting school in a few yrs.

By luvs2teach

July 14, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

catlady summed up everything very nicely, but I’ll add that as a middleschool teacher, it is still often very evident (usually in behavior) when you have one of the summer birthday kids. Add to that the different rates for puberty - ugh, toxic mess.

Like catlady, I’ve also noticed girls tend to handle being younger better than boys. It’s also more difficult by middle school to be younger, smaller less developed boy.

As to the question “is kindergarten too much for some 5-year olds?” I would say yes. Cognitive development does not always match the age on a calendar. I googled “Is my child ready for kindergarten?” and got a wealth of links. Parents considering this question should do that.

Finally, the question about other options - half-day pre-K, full pre-k, private pre-k, staying at home, mommy and me - I could go on. If your child has never been in a group educational setting, I would recommend part-time programs (check your church or local community college - they usually have very good ones).

By fallbdays

July 14, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

IMHO, the cutoff date should be moved back to Dec 1, there is absolutely no difference in maturity or readiness levels if a child is born on Sept 1 or October 1. Children are much more capable than we give them credit for. My child has a late September bday, has finished Kindergarten at a private school and is working at a 1st grade level, her older brother has an Oct bday,was reading by 5 yet the schools wouldn’t even let him test to start Kindergarten—having him sit out til the next year was pure boredom for him. Stop babying our children!! It only hinders them in the long run.

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

Is it any wonder that I agree with fallbdays?

By luvs2teach

July 14, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

fallbdays - the concern isn’t the difference in readiness between Sept 1 and Oct 1. The difference is the difference in readiness between Sept 1 of the previous year and October 1st of the following year. The difference can be substantial - plus as a Sept baby myself, who graduated at 17, entered college at 17, and was among the last in my class to get a driver’s license, there are other things to consider than just academics.

That being said, I’ve long been an advocate for more flexibility in age groupings, and you need to do what’s best for you and your child. That extra year at home should not have been boring however - there are plenty of options.

By TnT's mom

July 14, 2008 10:41 AM | Link to this

I think parents should look at the readiness of the child. My son, now in high school has a July 31st b-day and started kindergarten barely 5 yrs old. He did fine. He is now in honors classes. On the other hand, his younger brother has a September 9th b-day and started Kinder almost 6 yrs old. I was glad the date was September 1st because I didn’t have to be the one make the decision. He was not ready to begin school the year before. had he been born just 10 days prior he could have entered Kindergarten, but wasn’t ready. I too, hate to see parents hold them back just because they are younger, instead of really reviewing if they are mentally and emotionally ready. I have seen kids who were held back and are now in high school who are older than many of their classmates. Not always a good thing.

Many summer birthdays who start at 5 can and do catch up.

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

luvs:

Youngest bro’s bday is Aug 28. Middle bro’s is Sept 20. My bday is Jan 20.

Youngest bro was always one of the youngest in his class, middle bro one of the oldest. I was always in the middle as far as age goes.

Question is: Who did better in school?

HS GPA, highest to lowest was youngest bro(starting college at 17 - about a week after HS graduation), me(started college at 16 - before graduating HS), middle bro(started college at 18). (We all had somewhere above a 3.0, and I think even middle bro had somewhere in the 3.3 or higher range.)

Who did better behaviorally?

I had the most discipline issues, followed by middle bro and then youngest.

Who did better socially?

Middle bro was the most popular/ had the most friends. Youngest bro was next, followed by me.

Who did better athletically?

Same order as the last question. Middle (starting center on football team that went to the playoffs, couple of Top 3 team finishes in wrestling, including being within the Top 10 in his weight class in the state a time or two), youngest (played HS football, his wrestling team won a state championship), me (no school-related athletics).

So you may be on to something about postponing start of school - if you want the kid to be popular or athletic.

If, however, you are more concerned about academics, my family seems to indicate that starting school at a younger age is preferable.

By catlady

July 14, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

My answers are only based on the 450 or so kindergarteners I have taught, plus those I taught at later grades who had been overplaced, plus what I saw with my own children. No one is saying that there is some formula that works for every child. We speak in generalities. It should be looked at carefully, individually, and BY AT LEAST ONE SET OF DISPASSIONATE, TRAINED EYES, IMHO, if you have a summer birthday (May-August) child. Too many times the wrong reason drives the decisions.

By catlady

July 14, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

Then there is the birth order thing. In my PhD program (a leadership area), only ONE person among the faculty and grad students was not a first born or only child! ONLY ONE! Anyone want to count on the odds of that? ONE out of 20~ and that one had a gap of 10 years between him and his next older sibling!

By fallbdays

July 14, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

luvs, not boredom at home, boredom when he started school. He was stuck with other students in kindergarten, going over lessons he knew inside and out, he wound up tutoring the other kids. Plus, he was one of the biggest kids in class. As stated many times on this blog, the schools have a hard enough time educating gifted students as is, why not let the ones that are ready, willing, & able start school? So long as my finances allow, my child will continue to attend the private school, at least there I know she will be encouraged and pushed beyond the “limits” that educrats have deemed appropriate for her age cohort. BTW, I too graduated at 17 because I skipped the 3rd grade and didn’t find it any hinderance what so ever. All of my friends were a year older than I and my social life wasn’t affected in any way.

By EducatorX3

July 14, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

It is always good to remember, Jeff, that policy cannot be decided based on one case. I think I did my job as a parent rather well. My son was reading before he started to kindergarten, he knew his numbers and could do basic math, but he was certainly not ready to be a third grader! AND…until you have taught 5 year olds how to read and do math, don’t be so sure that it is not rocket science!

I agree with Catlady and others. Those students with birthdays that make them them among the youngest in the class, often have difficulties that have nothing to do with academic ability, but much to do with physical/emotional/mental maturity. Especially boys. We can teach math and reading; we can’t teach maturity.

Honestly? I would move the cut-off date to July 1.

By fallbdays

July 14, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

catlady, “It should be looked at carefully, individually, and BY AT LEAST ONE SET OF DISPASSIONATE, TRAINED EYES, IMHO, if you have a summer birthday (May-August) child.” I whole-heartedly agree, exactly my issue, why can’t the child be tested and allowed to attend school if they are ready at the tender age of 4 years 11 mos? Holding them back for a full year is crazy.

By fallbdays

July 14, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

catlady, “It should be looked at carefully, individually, and BY AT LEAST ONE SET OF DISPASSIONATE, TRAINED EYES, IMHO, if you have a summer birthday (May-August) child.” I whole-heartedly agree, exactly my issue, why can’t the child be tested and allowed to attend school if they are ready at the tender age of 4 years 11 mos? Holding them back for a full year is crazy.

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

EX3:

You don’t have to be mature to handle the mental rigors of academics. As long as your parents have taught you to obey rules - something that should be learned WELL before age 5 anyway - if your mind can handle processing the information, I see no reason to withhold it.

As I’ve said here before, schools should ONLY be concerned with academics. As you yourself stated, younger students’ difficulties are rarely academic-related. Therefore the school should accept the younger student and let the parent handle any issues that arise.

By EducatorX3

July 14, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

Jeff, All I can think to say is “Bless your heart.” And please keep working in the IT field.

If you honestly believe that maturity has nothing to do with the ability to handle academic rigor, then there is a huge key to your lack of success in the classroom. Perhaps you should do some reading on developmentally appropriate instruction.

Just because a child can recite the numbers 1-10, does not mean they grasp the concept of counting. I didn’t say anything about “withholding” information, I just think there are many factors that determine readiness.

As you yourself stated, younger students’ difficulties are rarely academic-related. Not exacly what I said. “Academic related” and “academic ability” are not the same thing.

Ability and performance not jiving is often a problem with immature students. Being able to sit and listen for long periods of time is a maturity issue.

Being able to hold a pencil and form letters is a maturity issue.

Being able to communicate clearly and appropriately is a maturity issue.

Do you really think that just telling a 5 year-old that the rule says be still and quiet will get it done?

I am a big supporter of multi-age, multi-grade classes. And yes, I do believe that there are some younger students who could start earlier. But it is much easier to make exceptions on a case-by-case basis than to make a policy based on the exceptions rather than the rule.

I have seen a rare 4 year old who was ready to start kindergarten, but I have seen many more who needed the extra year of maturity.

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 12:42 PM | Link to this

EX3:

Definition of lunacy is doing the same things over and over again and expecting the same results.

Trusting the educational establishment to know what they are doing is what has gotten us to where we are. Why then should we continue to trust educational orthodoxy?

Othodoxy is GREAT - when you’re already at a high level and the tradition is to push ever onward.

But when something is FAILING - as public education clearly is - orthodoxy is the very LAST thing that should be trusted.

And btw: I speak here of the orthodoxy of ‘developmentally appropriate instruction’.

As I’ve said multiple times: You get what you hold people to with no other option. That goes for a 1 yo as assuredly as it goes for a 71 yo.

By EducatorX3

July 14, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

No, that quote is credited to Einstein and it is the definition of insanity… “doing the same thing over and over and expecting DIFFERENT results.”

And since you have said the same thing “multiple times” and have gotten little agreement, I think it is most appropriate to have this definition in your post. Let us know how that idea works for you when you are potty training your first born.

By Idiot Watch

July 14, 2008 1:04 PM | Link to this

It is amazing what Jeff doesn’t know about both children and teaching.

By Belle

July 14, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

I’m very intersted in this topic, I have a Sept. 5th baby turning 2 this year and I’ve been concerned about the 1/2 day pre-K classes. I didn’t want her in the classes with the 1yr olds for fear that it would hold her back or that she would not learn as much as she would with other 2 yr olds.
Have any of you teachers observed a difference at this age?

By AD

July 14, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

I had an early birthday so there was no problem. My brother, however, had a September birthday (15 days from the cut off) and had to wait out kindergarten for a year. He could read by 4. He was one of those obnoxious “are you dumb?” kids when his kindergarten teacher was teaching all the other kids the alphabet. He was bored and his teacher made him “write a book”, which means, copying words out of a book, while she was teaching the rest of the kids. By first grade, I had him doing 5th to 6th grade math. Needless to say, his education did not match up with his abilities so he lost interest in school at age 5, never to regain it. By being born 15 days “too late”, he was held back and academically ruined. I agree with all who say that it should be a child-by-child decision.

By AD

July 14, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

I had an early birthday so there was no problem. My brother, however, had a September birthday (15 days from the cut off) and had to wait out kindergarten for a year. He could read by 4. He was one of those obnoxious “are you dumb?” kids when his kindergarten teacher was teaching all the other kids the alphabet. He was bored and his teacher made him “write a book”, which means, copying words out of a book, while she was teaching the rest of the kids. By first grade, I had him doing 5th to 6th grade math. Needless to say, his education did not match up with his abilities so he lost interest in school at age 5, never to regain it. By being born 15 days “too late”, he was held back and academically ruined. I agree with all who say that it should be a child-by-child decision.

By JJ

July 14, 2008 1:20 PM | Link to this

Jeff does not have any kids, and just recently married. I know this for a fact, as he is a regular on the Momania blog.

I was once the leading expert on kids, until I had my own……My kids would never yell at me, my kids will do exactly as I tell them to do, etc….HA!!!!

As far as when you kid is ready for kindergarten, it’s up to the parents. If you feel your child is not mentally prepared, then don’t send them. Unfortunately, the government wants to get a hold of them as soon as possible.

Parents, educate your kids before they get to school. Work with them, play with them, teach them. Don’t expect the government to do this. It is YOUR responsibility as a parent.

By EducatorX3

July 14, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this

Belle, At this age the primary goal of pre-school programs is socialization. In your position, I would place my daughter with other two-year-olds. Depending on the child, I usually recommend that the movement to “school-age” groups start with the Pre-K 4 programs. And even then, it just depends on the child.

By Renne

July 14, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

I find it amusing that everyone responding to this blog has kids who are overachievers. Is it just a place to brag? Anyway, all children are different and the best solution would be to offer tests to check academic and emotional readiness, however, in reality, we are dealing with government run schools that are too overwhelmed trying to be educators and parents to today’s youngesters.

By almh

July 14, 2008 1:56 PM | Link to this

My son just turned 4 last month so it is on my mind as well. I think he will be ok academically but I’m not so sure about emotional readiness. The New York Times had a good article about this last year. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/03/magazine/03kindergarten-t.html

By Dumbing Down

July 14, 2008 1:59 PM | Link to this

Hell, with state state of Georgia’s educational system, does it really matter? !

By Reality Check

July 14, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

Holding back a child simply because they are a male with an August or later birthday is totally wrong. Maturity and academic level needs to be taken into account.

Making a cutoff date of July would have been a huge mistake with my husband. His mother said the maturity and learning level were both there even with his late August birthdate. He went on to do quite well in school and has the grades to show for it.

My female cousin lived in a state that the age cutoff was early and ended up being skipped a grade later because she did so well academically. Apparently someone in that school had some sense and was willing to move her to where she should have been!

By 20 year (former) kindergarten teacher here. I would seriously consider holding a child out if HE tur

July 14, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

It’s funny but sad you have instant experts who know everything there is to know about education. People, listen to experienced teachers. They know better than anyone else. Yes, maybe you’re an awesome parent and your child is ready, but we’re talking about huge numbers of children, not just your little one.

Jeff makes a cogent, valid point: “Trusting the educational establishment to know what they are doing is what has gotten us to where we are.”

Don’t trust the “establishment” of school system administrators, pencil pushers, principals, etc. I have a Master’s in Education and have been an administrator for a long time, and Jeff is right, the establishment is part of the problem.

But whole-heartedly trust the teachers who have been in the classroom for years. Just like soldiers on the front line, they know the real deal and should be the first people we ask for guidance on this topic.

By catlady

July 14, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

Whoa! I am successful because someone has used my work as a troll name! Almost as good as being published in a peer-reviewed journal!

Jeff, are you going to DEMAND your 4 month old cut a tooth? I mean, it is just a question of discipline, right? And they should walk at ll months, right? Just make it plain to them! And let’s not even talk about toilet training! By Gawd, you are the parent! You are in charge!

By momtoAlex&Max

July 14, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

To me, there’s a whole lot more learnt in the playground than in the classroom. To that end, we held back our July-born son and we have had absolutely no regrets. Before we held him back (in pre-K), he was with children that were invariably several months older than him and it showed. Maybe my kid was slower, but once he became one of the older kids in his class, it became a whole different world. He’s more mature, he handled peer pressures and bullying way better, he’s a leader among his group and his academic performance is great. So based on my experience, I say hold back. Better to hold back and then skip a grade if they are soooooooo bored and soooooooo far ahead of their peers (which, btw, I hardly believe anyways) than to have to repeat 1st grade because they were falling behind.

And btw I know in my school district examples of both cases. A boy that was held back by his parents in pre-K was moved to 2nd grade right after Christmas break during his 1st grade year. Another boy we know has a June birthday, was not held back by his parents and is now doing 1st grade again. What outcome would you prefer for your son? (And I know girls are different, so I cannot say what is best for them)

By momtoAlex&Max

July 14, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

YOU tell him catlady! You made my day. And you made me squirt Coke out of my nose. LOL!

WTF jeff, you are so deluded about children is no longer even amusing.

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 3:04 PM | Link to this

momtoAlexandMax:

In other words, you held him back so he would be better socially and athletically, not necessarily because he would be better academically.

Call me crazy, but to me, academics come first, last, and only as far as school goes. Any other discussion involving my kids and school UTTERLY DEPENDS on them meeting my academic standards.

BTW: Lest anyone think that I am overly cruel: My standard isn’t OVERLY high. 3.5 GPA. Easily doable in pre-college years, doable in college with a little work. I’m not one of these maniacs that REQUIRES a 4.0 before the kid can so much as have an after school job, much less do anything socially.

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

momtoAlexandMax:

In other words, you held him back so he would be better socially and athletically, not necessarily because he would be better academically.

Call me crazy, but to me, academics come first, last, and only as far as school goes. Any other discussion involving my kids and school UTTERLY DEPENDS on them meeting my academic standards.

BTW: Lest anyone think that I am overly cruel: My standard isn’t OVERLY high. 3.5 GPA. Easily doable in pre-college years, doable in college with a little work. I’m not one of these maniacs that REQUIRES a 4.0 before the kid can so much as have an after school job, much less do anything socially.

By EducatorX3

July 14, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

Catlady, Thanks for the laugh! I am off to class. Have a great afternoon.

By Whatever Jeff

July 14, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

3.5 as “my academic standard”, Jeffie???

Hey buddy, what if you kids just isn’t that smart? Try and try, maybe he/she just won’t be capable of meeting daddy’s “standard”.

By HB

July 14, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

Definitely no hard and fast rule here. I babysat two brothers for several years who were two years apart. The oldest, a mid-June birthday, was a pretty average kid academically, but definitely acted a bit younger than the kids a few months older than he was in preschool. After completing a 5-y-o private preschool class, his parents enrolled him in public kindergarten rather than first grade. His younger brother, an early-July birthday, was extremely smart and as mature as the older kids in his class (possibly from playing with his older brother). I have no doubt he would have been bored throughout his school career if he had started late. His parents put him in public kindergarten as a “young” 5-y-o. It really depends on the kid, and I think these parents made the right decision for each child based on their individual abilities and maturity.

By momtoAlex&Max

July 14, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

In other words, you held him back so he would be better socially and athletically, not necessarily because he would be better academically.

That is exactly what I am saying. His academic performance was just as good (if not better) after a year. His IQ points did not go down because we held him back a year. That’s why I prefaced my post by saying that I happen to think that there are a lot more lesson learnt in the playground than in the classroom.

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

Whatever:

Pretty much any so-called ‘expert’ in education will acknowledge that people are typically better in either the humanities or the sciences, and that rare is the person who is weak in both or strong in both.

A 3.5 GPA means A’s in the strong areas and B’s in the weak areas. Again, not overly hard, particularly pre-college.

By jim d

July 14, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Thought you were to start that new job today.

By Stacey

July 14, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

I believe the age for school readiness (like nearly everything else) depends on the child. Not all children have the same learning abilities and/or capabilities, not even children who grow up in the same household. There has to be a cutoff somewhere though. If the cutoff is moved to Dec 1, the Dec 2 parents will feel robbed. Not everyone will be happen no matter what.

My son will be in 2nd grade this year. He is in the gifted program at his school and this past spring his test scores showed his reading/comprehension ability as 1st semester 4th grade and math as 2nd semester 3rd grade. My MIL thinks I should request that he be allowed to skip 2nd grade (she also wanted him to skip 1st). I don’t even know if skipping a grade is even an option in my district but if it is, I don’t think it is a good idea for my child. Not everything learned in elementary school is academic and those few, short years they have as children are crucial in future development.

By pythia

July 14, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

As a September 1 birthday, I always felt I had a vested interest in this question. I started kindergarden in a district with a September 30 cutoff. By third grade I had moved to a district with an August 31 cutoff, so by graduation (at 17) I was the youngest in my class. In discussion with my (older) classmates, though, they often expressed that being older was not an advantage - graduating at 19 only held them back from being “grown ups”.

I was certainly ready for school by 5, but then again we were expected to be. At what point are parents responsible for making sure that their children are prepared for school? It seems that more children start daycare and preschool and nursery school earlier, yet are completely unequiped for kindergarden. Is kindergarden that much harder now than it was a generation or two ago? Or are we setting standards lower instead of asking children to strive?

By Bell Curve

July 14, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

I love it when southerners attempt to discuss education (especially the Clayton County residents). Next they’ll be discussing how to solve the traffic problems in metro Atlanta. I can’t wait when I visit the “Empire State of the South” and be able to buy a beer on Sunday, from a Publix grocery store. 5 years old, IQ, GPA, Hope Scholarship, Lottery etc… Georgia is fast becoming the “Educational Comedy Channel” of the nation!

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

mom:

See, here is my point in relation to playground learning vs classroom learning:

A lot of the playground issues can be learned just as well in the classroom, AND you can learn in the classroom how to handle tough playground situations.

Question: Does the military send soldiers out onto the ‘playground’ to learn lessons, or do they put them in the classroom first? (Tip: For all of their extreme toughness, even places such as Parris Island, SERE, Quantico, and Navy SEAL training are technically classrooms…)

By JJ

July 14, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I hope you don’t have a child with a learning disability.

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 3:53 PM | Link to this

jim:

Naw, ya got me for one more week. Less so after that.

By Been there, done that x5

July 14, 2008 4:01 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

The only “real school” is SFQC. SERE is part of it. The others don’t count.

By HB

July 14, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

In discussion with my (older) classmates, though, they often expressed that being older was not an advantage - graduating at 19 only held them back from being “grown ups”.

This is an interesting point too. While I can see waiting one more year for a summer child, where is the cut off? Personally, I like a grace period for choice of Jun-Jul-Aug (and why I think a Sept 1 cut off is best, lining up somewhat with the school year). Those kids will graduate at age 18. But should a parent of a child with a February birthday wait a year? Their 8th graders will be eligible for learner’s permits. At what month do we say do ahead and push the child a bit and see how he/she does, rather than wait and let them mature a little?

By jim d

July 14, 2008 4:03 PM | Link to this

What is the right age for kindergarten?

20 sounds about right! Everyone would be reading at 2nd year college level and all schools would make AYP.

By luvs2teach

July 14, 2008 4:07 PM | Link to this

I actually went into school today to do a little work and so missed some of the fun…

fallbdays - sorry, I thought you meant your son was bored at home, and your scenario is exactly why I advocate more flexible age groupings. I don’t like students being used to tutor others, however, I do think for a boy, it is important to be bigger. It’s a shame your child’s school couldn’t do a better job in keeping him engaged.

Until we adopt a more flexible policy based on readiness, and not the calendar, I advocate putting a k-age child into private kindergarten, and then transferring over into the 1st grade if they are capable, or public K if they are not.

jeff - your scenarios are interesting but also go to prove my point that no two kids are alike and judging solely on the calendar is a mistake (and cat’s factoring in of birth order is important, too, as is the child’s sex).

I think social and physical issues do need to be taken into consideration because (and it’s sad to say) of bullying and the social pecking order. The state made the decision for my son (mid-Sept b-day). He needed that year to mature (he was painfully shy). He also was the younger of two, having an older sister (aka as a “second mother,” lol). He blossomed in that year, and tackled kindergarten head-on. now, as a rising senior, he’s confident and has lots of friends. He’s mature and well-liked by his teachers, too. He was one of the first in his group to get his license. He had an absoulutely wonderful kindergarten teacher, however, who challenged the kids at their best level every minute.

Contrast that with my brother (late December b-day, cut-off of 12/31). My mom started him anyway. He was bright, but small, and of average maturity. He had trouble with his teachers and got picked on - a lot. He ended up dropping out in the 9th grade. I often wonder what would’ve happened if he had been held back a year.

I also had a set of fraternal twins, brother and sister, as friends in high school. One was born just before midnight on Dec 31 - the other just after on the 1st, so two different years, and thus they hit both sides of the cut-off. Their mom, on the recommendation of the pediatrician, went with the later start for both, keeping them together. It worked well; both were strong students, active in extracurrcular activities and well liked.

I don’t for one minute discount the importance of the social and the physical - academic is important, but the brain isn’t going to work well in a miserable situation. I’m also a big believer in the work of Piaget in the area of cognitive development - and if a child isn’t in the right stage for acdemic development, it’s simply not going to happen no matter how much you wish it so. The funny thing about Piaget’s theories is that I was studying them when my children were going through a couple of his classic stages - I saw first hand what he was writing about - and I was a science major at the time, not education.

By CRCT Debacle

July 14, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

In Georgia, you should be at least 7 years old to attend kindergarden.

By jim d

July 14, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

WELL, WHAT DO THE STUDIES SAY?

Studies on the effects of age at kindergarten entry yield mixed results. In The Effect of a Child’s Age at School Entrance on Reading Readiness and Achievement Test Scores (ERIC Document ED366939) Karen Magliacano reported that scores from Metropolitan Reading Readiness Tests and the Iowa Tests of Basic Skills were compared for two sample groups of second graders. Sample A was made up of students who were between the ages of 4 years 11 months and 5 years 4 months (younger students) when entering kindergarten, and Sample B was made up of students who were between the ages of 5 years 5 months and 6 years 1 month (older students). The study found “no significant difference between the samples in reading test scores as a result of chronological age

In a study published in the Journal of Educational Research (Jan-Feb 1991), Summer Birth Date Children: Kindergarten Entrance Age and Academic Achievement (ERIC Document EJ426449), Sandra L. Crosser compared academic achievement indices of seventh through ninth graders (n=45) who entered kindergarten at age five with indices of similar children who entered at age six (n=45). “All statistically significant differences favored older males and females, especially in reading for older males,” states a summary of the findings.

Readiness for Kindergarten: Parent and Teacher Beliefs, an October 1995 report of The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), found that parents of preschoolers and kindergarten teachers don’t always agree on what skills are necessary for kindergarten success. The reports states: “Parents of a majority of preschoolers believe that knowing the letters of the alphabet, being able to count to 20 or more, and using pencils and paint brushes are very important or essential for a child to be ready for kindergarten, while few kindergarten teachers share these beliefs…[C]ompared with teachers, parents place greater importance on academic skills (e.g., counting, writing, and reading) and prefer classroom practices that are more academically oriented. One reason for this may be that parents perceive that there are specific activities they can do to teach their children school-related basic skills, whereas ways of changing the social maturity or temperamental characteristics of their children are less apparent.”

I certainly hope that clears up any questions! :-)

By jim d

July 14, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

Hey Luv,

“a more flexible policy based on readiness”

If we can apply that, across the board, to teachers as well it may actually improve things. :-)

By Jeff

July 14, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

Been there:

I’m not too sure about that. I’ve known Marines that I would put up against anyone, anywhere, under any situation. But that debate is neither here nor there as far as K12 education in GA is concerned. (BTW: Thing I like about the SpecOps community is more their speed than actual capability. I’d trust a platoon of combat-hardened Marines anywhere I would trust a SpecOps platoon, but the SpecOps guys can typically get on location FAR faster than the Marines.)

By luvs2teach

July 14, 2008 4:26 PM | Link to this

stacey - explanation (and fuel for the battle with the MIL) - when a standardized test (like the ITBS, not CRCT) gives you a GE, or grade equivalent, it is not saying that your child should be in that grade, or is even doing that grade level work. What it is saying is that your child performed as well on the 1st grade test as a child in the 1st semester of the 4th grade (example from your post) would perform on the same 1st grade test.

It’s a common misperception (probably because it’s rarely explained well) - I know i used to think that, until someone explained it to me. Of course, regardless, those results are still terrific, and it shows wonderful aptitude.

I don’t know what your system offers for gifted kids (pull-outs, acceleration, grade-skipping etc). One option is to see if he can go to an upper level class for part of the day, like math (usually kids who are gifted in math really need to be challenged through acceleration). I’m not sure if you know the site, but Hoagie’s Gifted is a wonderful resource and has a lot of information about options.

pythia - I can see your point if they are held back too much (19 as a senior is a bit much). I do see that a little with my son - he is ready to be done and move on (he’ll be 18 just after Labor Day). Luckily for him, his school offers early graduation options (and joint enrollment), and he is on target for a December graduation. Needless to say, I would like to see more flexibilty in high school instruction time as well - if you can finish in three years, go for it!

By Bell Curve

July 14, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Keep the debate going. This is getting better and better! Remember, no matter what age they attend kindergarden in Georgia, they’ll still fail the CRCT in droves, lead the nation in poor SAT scores and have one of the lowest graduation rates in the country. 5, 6 or even 7… it’s entertaining at best! Go Georgia!

By jim d

July 14, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

That’s because the Marines, first have to find a ride. If it were not for that—well?

By Been there, done that x5

July 14, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Jeffrey: 12 weeks of training and voila you’re a Marine… remember… WOMEN are MARINES as well. Takes over two years in SFQC and you must be a TRIPLE volunteer! Again… been there done that… with all of them (foreign and domestic).

By luvs2teach

July 14, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

jim d & catlady - you two are cracking me up today…too much :-p

By jim d

July 14, 2008 4:40 PM | Link to this

In Michigan, in the first quarter of the last century,(long before I was a child) some public schools enrolled classes of children twice each year. Some children entered school in September; other children entered school in February. These half-year classes continued through high school.

Perhaps a six-month chronological age range would lend flexibility to today’s system. Whatta think?

By catlady

July 14, 2008 4:44 PM | Link to this

jim d, Metro test of Readiness is normed by age. That is, students who are 5 yrs 0 months are “allowed” to miss more questions to get the same score as a child 5 yrs 3 months. Just a difference you might want to know.

There are also some tests that used to be used (I don’t know about now) that “allowed” summer birthday kids to miss significantly more questions than fall (older) birthday kids and still be placed in gifted. At our school, all but one of the kids in the gifted program were April-August birthdays. There was (IMH0) a poor job of norming that test; there should have been a much wider distribution of birthdays.

Article from Journal of ed Rsch is subjected to a much more stringent/rigorous standard. It is a peer-reviewed journal. The ERIC document you cite: well, ANYONE can put something on ERIC. It means nothing. The NCES cite: NCES has access to much national data, but I have seen some very very simplistic stuff they have done with many flaws. So, it isn’t just the findings that are important, but the source. Some mean nothing, some are questionable. It would be like comparing an article on health written and researched by an AJC writer vs. someone published in the New England Journal of Medicine, or Lancet. Not that the AJC article would be wrong, but it would be more subject to close scrutiny on its claims.

By jim d

July 14, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this

Luv,

We really can afford to. This ain’t a serious conversation! I mean really WHO CARES? Even the experts can’t agree!

By jim d

July 14, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

Cat,

You’re kiddin! —-Right?

We are now starting kids as early as 3 in pre-k, what the hell difference will it make if they don’t go up to K until they are 5 yrs. 3 months or 5 years 8 months? None after a short while would be my quess.

By What a wannabe

July 14, 2008 4:56 PM | Link to this

Thing I like about the SpecOps community is more their speed than actual capability. I’d trust a platoon of combat-hardened Marines anywhere I would trust a SpecOps platoon, but the SpecOps guys can typically get on location FAR faster than the Marines

Jeff, do you really think that either the combat-hardened Marines or the SpecOps platton care at all what you think?

By Erin

July 14, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

OK, time for me to weigh in here.

I was born in early September and I had a lot of surgeries in early childhood to correct a physical problem I had at birth.

Because I was small at birth and due to my medical concerns, my mom chose to keep me out of kindergarten until just before I was 6.

By that time, I could already read and write and in fact, I did very well in school. I remember being bored to tears by the ditto sheets we had to do tracing the dotted-line letters across the page. And I did really well in school when I got there.

In contrast, my good friend in elementary school was also born in September, but the following year after I was born. I was a year and a few weeks older than she was, but we were in the same grade in school for a variety of reasons.

She also did very well in school, and in fact was in the top 10 percent of our high school class.

Personally, I think a great deal of whether a child is ready depends not only on the child’s age and birth date, but also his/her readiness in other ways. I found myself having more friends all through school the grade ahead of mine, but in looking back, I realize my mom was probably right in keeping me out that extra year. I needed that maturity level.

By jim d

July 14, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

OK Cat,

Let’s assume you are serious here for just a minute.

I recall reading somewhere that affluent parents tend to hold out their summer-born children more often than do low socioeconomic status parents. If that is the case, then children who may be at academic risk from factors associated with poverty face the additional hurdle of being compared to advantaged children who are 12 to 15 months older. We should expect that the economically disadvantaged children may be outperformed by their classmates who are both chronologically and developmentally their seniors.

In the real-life kindergarten classroom, the youngest children may appear to be immature and unready to tackle the tasks that their significantly older classmates find challenging and intriguing. As the curriculum and academic expectations increase to meet the needs of the 6-year-old children, there is a real danger that the kindergarten program will become developmentally inappropriate for the very young children it is meant to serve.

So what is the solution?

By jim d

July 14, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

Let me leave y’all with this thought for the evening.

In affluent Montgomery County, Md., about 1 in 2 boys are starting kindergarten at age 6, compared with 1 in 10 a decade ago. The number of girls starting kindergarten about age 6 or older went up to, but from 5 percent in 1970 to a relatively modest 10% in 2001.

There are fairness and equity issues. Many parents can’t afford the child-care costs involved in delaying kindergarten.

If you can afford to do this, you’re really giving your child an advantage. And, after all, all of our children should be given the greatest advantage. The children who start kindergarten later may get onto the sports team first or get the parts in the school play. It would be a good idea if the later starting age would be the same for everyone, as kindergarten has become so demanding, that some kids can’t keep up.

Thank you President Bush and NCLB. (not)

By catlady

July 14, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this

jim, i think I was quite serious. I just don’t remember what about.

You are correct about the SES divide in holding childen back. Higher ed parents, who are usually higher monied, are more open to it, probably because of the childcare issues you raise. This is only from my experience and observation.

Part of the problem is that the immaturity effect is not just in kindergarten. It follows the child on up the ladder, causing problems for the child and classmates.

In a best world, children would be evaluated for readiness. However, then some parents would call foul; that their child had been discriminated against. (On the basis of one test!!! yadayada) Therefore, we have this set date. It misses from time to time. With bad individual and group reprecussions.

Based on MY experience (only) I’d set the cutoff for boys as May 1 and girls Oct or Nov 1. (but then there are charges of gender discrimination) BTW, there was a maturity evaluation developed years ago. It was expensive and time consuming. I don’t remember its name, but I think Cherokee Co used it.

I have said before that NONe of the parents who allowed me to keep a child an extra year were unhappy after the fact. (initially, yes). Quite a few told me later they did not see it at the time, but it was the best thing. On the other hand, several times I had parents express their regrets that they had not listened to me. And every child I asked to keep back (unsuccessfully) left school before graduation. These kids were not DUMB, just not ready for a sit-down and listen world. Keeping a dumb kid back 100 years does not make them any smarter. Keeping an immature child back gives them a little time to grow up, to solidify gains, and to be a leader.

By mom3boys

July 14, 2008 11:08 PM | Link to this

This is an issue I am passionate about!! Boy #3 has an August b’day. The year before kindergarten he was in 1/2 day preschool 3 days a week. The director asked me if I would be enrolling him in the “young 5” class (designed for kids w/ b’days June-Dec). I was insulted! How dare she imply that my little genius was not ready! He was very well behaved and very bright. I let her know my thoughts. I said he was ready. She said, “He is ready, and he’ll do fine. He will just do more fine if you give him an extra year.” I decided to research the matter. I spoke to dozens of kindergarten and elementary teachers and principals. EVERY ONE said hold him back. Now, as an aside, my kids are pretty short…I could hold them back 3 years and they still would not be the tallest. But this guy was so little. I told my friend what I was considering, that it would set him up as a leader as opposed to a follower. She said, “all your kids can’t be leaders.” I said, “why not? of course they can.” So I gave him what many teachers refer to as “The Gift of a Year.” I have made many mistakes as a parent. THIS IS NOT ONE OF THEM. He is now going on 13, about to enter 7th grade. He was SGA president in 5th grade. He holds leadership positions at church and at scouts. He is confident, outgoing, and bright. Holding him back was hard; I needed to return to work, so starting him would have been better financially…but we just did what was best for him and it worked out some how. Many neighbors, who were faced w/ this decision and chose to send their child are sooo regretting it. Some have been retained, while others do not have the maturity to behave and are being diagnosed w/ ADHD. Had my son been born 2 weeks later, I would not have had a choice; as it was I had to make a difficult choice. Now, I tell everyone: HOLD THEM BACK!!! As a mom of all boys, I hate when someone generalizes about boys—this is the one time when you really can…boys w/ summer b’days need to wait. Sometimes girls need to wait…very few boys should go ahead if they are summer birthdays. Sorry for the long post…my $.02.

By jim d

July 15, 2008 4:14 AM | Link to this

Mom of 3,

Want to give that teen an even larger edge? Place him in a private school for the next two years.

The next two are the toughest.

By Lee

July 15, 2008 5:51 AM | Link to this

If I were king of education, abolishing the age/grade grouping would be one of the first things I would do.

The age/grade concept was adopted when America was about 90/10% white/black and we had racially segregated classrooms. That meant that you had a more homogeneous classroom and the age/grade group was a good compromise.

Doesn’t make sense in today’s world. I’ve been a longtime proponent of grouping by ability and when I say ability, I mean four things - maturity, aptitude, intelligence, and personality.

Maturity - has been beaten to death in the blogs above. It does have a significant impact on a student’s ability to function in a classroom setting.

Aptitude - left brain vs. right brain, and all the other psychological concepts about why we learn in certain ways.

Intelligence - a kid with an 85 IQ is not going to be able to keep up with a kid with a 110 IQ. Period.

Personality - this might really be a subset of Aptitude. Who knows? But I do know that a shy, timid child will have a harder go of it than an outgoing, confident child.

All four attributes work in conjunction with each other and there is no magic formula. That’s why we pay professional educators to devise educational systems.

Of course, the professional educators throw ‘em all in the same class and cross their fingers and hope for the best.

By mom3boys

July 15, 2008 7:04 AM | Link to this

JimD: if I could afford it, I would have put all 3 in private school…but we are two teachers, so that is not going to happen. As it is, #3 is at my school so I get to pick out his teachers, and that seems to work well. Our schools are good-could be better, but are good. Numbers 1 & 2 have done ok: #1 is at UGA while #2 is at USMA.

Lee: I agree with much of what you say. A kid w/ a low IQ that is not in sped range is just going to have a tough go of it. Maturity is huge…most boys are not as mature as girls at 5. God put the wiggles in little boys; some cannot control their impulses enough for the “sit and git” mentality of schools. Some just are not ready. I was so disappointed years ago when most schools eliminated “readiness.” My son is in class with kids he is often 12 months older than. Those kids are really struggling. Middle school is hard enough; the extra year has made it a little easier for my son. The schools will not “hold back” because of maturity—parents have to be proactive and make this happen. The people I’ve met who are most opposed to it are the ones who have a kid who should have been held back! The kiddo’s behavior keeps the parents up at the school dealing w/ the consequences of his immaturity. It is a decision w/ long term effects.

I asked my son last night if he had any regrets that I did this. He said it would be nice to be going into 8th instead of 7th, but other than that, no. He said, “I know you did what you thought was best.” It was a tough decision. For my family, it was the right one.

By yesiamworried

July 15, 2008 7:13 AM | Link to this

Stacey

Why does your MIL (don’t you love them) want your child skip? Life is so short and does she really want him in middle school sooner? BLECH!

My Daughter (who by the way has a Sept birthday so is among the oldest i her class) will be in second grade this year also and finished first grade testing at a 4th grade level in math and reading. Our county now has subject level acceleration (that is they can go up a classroom for just a subject or two) and I played with the idea for asking for an eval for that, but stopped when I realized she is only going to be little once. She isn’t bored— loves to learn, and is just generally happy, so no worries there.

I have a child who in two years we will be sending off to college and I know how fast these years go.

By MountainMama

July 15, 2008 8:19 AM | Link to this

I’m all over the board with this issue, which I’ll touch on briefly. But BOTTOM LINE, in my opinion, this subject would best be determined on an individual basis, but is THAT going to happen? NOT!!

Now my “all over the board” points. My mother is a retired Kdg. teacher (over 36 years) and I can remember growing up hearing mention of the kids who would be retained (or placed in the “Readiness Class”) if they weren’t fully prepared to move on to first grade. With VERY few exceptions, these students were male with summer birthdays. Coincidence? You decide.

I personally have a mid-September birthday and started Kdg back in the 60’s in the Atlanta City School System, just days before turning 5 years old and was WAY past ready to be there. (Remember I had a mom who was a Kdg teacher and I couldn’t escape the 24/7 teacher/mom.) During my 6th grade year, my parents made the decision that we would move to the north GA mountains. I was very fortunate (academically) that my elementary school principal was familiar with the system I was going to move into and he made the suggestion to my parents that I “skip” 7th grade so I wouldn’t be bored to death at my new school. We took their recommendation (I did do a bit of extra work the last 3 months of 6th grade, basically going thru the 7th grade English/Reading curriculum during that time for “insurance”.) So we moved during the summer and I entered 8th grade at the age of 11….not turning 12 until almost a full month later. Fortunately, I was physically mature enough and looking back on it now, pretty much emotionally mature enough to handle being so young. I began my Senior year at age 15 (and also began taking one college class per quarter at the same time, requiring my father to come and pick me up from HS at lunchtime for about 2 1/2 weeks to get me to my college class, since I didn’t yet have my driver’s license. I graduated in the top 5% of my high school class at the age of 16 and also had earned 2 full quarters of college credit at the same time.

Fast forward many years and my son had a December birthday, so he was 18 1/2 by the time he graduated; and was a full 5 1/2 years old when he started kindergarten. My daughter is now 13 and a half, and will enter 8th grade in a few weeks. I NOW think back to my own situation some 30+ years ago and realize that I was almost 2 full years YOUNGER than she is now when I was entering the grade she is about to enter. The thought of that, both MY entering 8th grade at 11 and the thought of HER doing the same in this day and time scares the cr*p out of me! (Her academic, physical and emotional maturity are all well beyond her current 13, but with all the pressures, temptations and outside influences that kids have today, I’m quite thankful that she isn’t 11 entering 8th grade!)

What was the hardest thing for me, being the youngest in my class? There were two really: 1) not being allowed to begin dating at the same time as all of my classmates and 2) not having my driver’s license until after I’d been in 12th grade for a month.

I have one more point of reference on this overall topic. I taught 7th grade myself for a number of years, and almost without fail, within the first week of school, (without looking at student birthdates) I could identify every male student who had a summer birthday. Things that stood out as “red flags” included being physically smaller; very silly; behavior/concentration difficulties; and in many cases, just being a bit clumsy.
I also noticed during my years teaching 7th grade that there almost always seemed to be the biggest physical change in girls (mostly duriing the summer) between their 6th/7th grade years, but with the boys, that change wasn’t really noticable until they returned in the fall to start 8th grade. It was almost as if someone had performed a miracle and suddenly these immature little boys were now young men who actually knew how to act at school. Again, coincidence? You decide.

By Stacey

July 15, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach…Thanks for the ammo and the advice. I’m not familiar with Hoagie’s Gifted program so I will have to check it out.

yesiamworried…My MIL thinks my son is nearly a genius and if properly taught/trained/developed, he could be one of those 14 college students you sometimes here about. I don’t believe he’s a genius; I think he is just a really smart kid with the desire and capacity to learn. He picks up very quickly on new concepts so where it may take his classmates two days to learn something new, he understands it in two hours and is ready to move on to the next step. Still, I agree with you that they only have a few short days to be children and that more is lost than gained when they are rushed to grow up.

Lee…I agree with your entire post.

By miracle baby

July 15, 2008 10:35 PM | Link to this

Gosh — I never knew what dangerous ground I traversed when I began Kindergarten in 1965 at the age of 4! Never a problem, top 5% academically and above average athletically and socially. I never knew what a big deal that all was, until now when I see all of y’all wringing your mommy hands over NOTHING!! I try to keep things in perspective; as a parent I would never consider the popularity angle for holding my kid back a year — that’s just weird, and probably says more about the parents’ regrets than anything else.

As an aside, when my kids started school, the kindergarten teachers absolutely cringed when kids started school with no pre-K history — the story I heard is these kids start off behind, and have more behavioral and adjustment problems. Maybe that aspect is more important than actual age. I was the child of working parents, so maybe there’s a link?

By Kathy

July 16, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

Here is the issues I have……..the September 1 cut off date. I taught Kindergarten in Gwinnett for 8 years before “retiring” to be home with my daughter. School started (and still does in Gwinnett) on the second Monday in August. Every year I would have 3 or 4 children (no, that does not seem like a lot, but when they are all crying and you are dealing with 15-20 others, it becomes a lot!) that would not be 5 until the last week in August. School is a very scary place for some 4 year olds that have NEVER been to preschool or away from their Mamas AT ALL. The children in my class (and other classes) who were 4 until the very end of August had a very hard time adjusting to school…..especially the non-English speaking children who had NEVER left their Mamas. If school is going to continue to start in the very beginning of August, I would love to see the cut off date be moved from Sept. 1 to Aug. 1.