Get Schooled

By WFC

July 10, 2008 9:36 AM | Link to this

It is natural for active parents to want the best for their children.

It is also probable that these parents have no clue as to what is best for their children.

EVERYONE believes that they are an expert on education. They are not!

I spent SEVEN YEARS becoming an EXPERT on learning. How long did you spend?

Do your job as a parent on preparing your child to learn. I sure did. And Beau Casey’s career at Northview H.S. is evidence of this.

Then, and only then, will you have the right to make educational decisions.

Otherwise, STFU!

By Gwinnett Educator

July 10, 2008 9:40 AM | Link to this

No, some parents should not have more influence over others. (although we ALL know that it happens and will continue to happen)

All parents should be handled the same by teachers/adminstrators. The most important thing that I learned from the principal that hired me after college, “Be mindful of the decisions you make. It will set the tone for everything else.” (not a direct quote) But she spoke volumes with that “setting the tone” talk. If you do for one parent..then expect to do it for many more.

If parents can pick teachers, then why can the teachers NOT pick the students?

By jim d

July 10, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

Definetly two sides to this one.

Pushy parents; if they succeed they push even harder. If they fail they whine and b-tch.

Stubborn administrators: alienate parents and wonder why they don’t get more support.

If we could put all the pettyness aside and just do what is best for the child—schools would abound in success.

By Old School

July 10, 2008 9:41 AM | Link to this

If a parent has a valid reason for requesting a particular teacher AND that request can be accommodated fairly easily, I think the change should be made. When we realized there was a major personality conflict between our youngest and a math teacher (our youngest was shy to the point of requiring medical intervention and the teacher was a very intimidating but outstanding teacher), we requested and got the change. Our request was made with the full support of the teacher and after we met with her, our youngest, and the counselor.

If the parent just wants the “cool” or the “easy” teacher or is caving into the whining of a kid who wants to be in the same class as his or her buddies, no change should even be considered.

All that being said, life doesn’t always put us in the situation we want to be in or assign us to a preferred teacher/boss/supervisor. Sometimes we just gotta suck it up, deal with it and make the best of it.

By jim d

July 10, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

WFC,

Well here’s another thought.

As volunteers in the schools many parents have the opportunity to see different teaching styles employed by different teachers. Parents also are often the best judge of what style of teaching works best with their child. So perhaps administrators should take a parents WISHES (not demands) into consideration when placing their children in a particular teachers class.

Just something to think about.

Tony,

Your thoughts? since you have to deal with this stuff.

By jim d

July 10, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

WFC,

Naughty—naughty. I’ve been chastised severly for the F-bomb this week and you open the blog with it? :-)

By Old School

July 10, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

Well jimdear, I actually agree with you today! We teachers/instructors are required to differentiate instruction to meet the needs of our varied audience and most try to do so…some instinctively, others “by the book.” As parents, we only get one shot at raising our kids and we’ve got to do what we can for the right reasons and in the right way.

I’m glad that parent was a willing volunteer but am saddened by the impression I get that she had an agenda or expected to be “rewarded” with a choice of teachers.

Altruism seems to have gone the way of chivalry, manners, and common sense.

By Marta

July 10, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

Administrators could reduce the number of requests they get by getting rid of the incompetent or minimally competent teachers in their schools It doesn’t take long for parents to figure out which teachers are successful and which are not. If parents felt that all the teachers were adequately trained, adequately supervised and performed in a professional manner, we wouldn’t make quite so many requests. Yes, there would still be personality and teaching styles to consider, but every request I have made has come down to trying to avoid a teacher who doesn’t belong in the classroom.

By Tony

July 10, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

Some people think they are more special than others, and as an elementary principal I hear from parents, community members, friends, board members, and business leaders who want favors like classroom placement.

One of the things public education is supposed to do is put everyone in an equal position when it comes to providing services. What I mean by this is simple: every child has the same right to have access to the very best teachers. Unfortunately, we still have many people who do not like this plan. They believe that position or status should have some influence in where their child is placed.

It is appalling that a parent, like the one cited in the topic paragraph, thinks that he or she has special entitlement just because of who they are. It is even more appalling that the parent would then demonize the school principal for doing the right thing.

By Livininatl

July 10, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

WFC…you spentSEVEN YEARS becoming an EXPERT on learning, it’s a shame it doesn’t show in the language you choose to use.
It amazes me how in a failing system you think parents should blindly turn over control to that system…doesn’t quite make sense.
BTW,,some of us parent have just as much if not more education under our belts.

By Ernest

July 10, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

I’m in agreement with JimD and OldSchool on this, I see two points being raised. I’ve been accused by teachers (surprise?) of having influence because of my involvement with the schools my children attend. Some might say I’m rationalizing but we were able to add ‘high achievers’ classes to our school because I recognized many children (including my own) were being undeserved. This partly came about because my son had a teacher with a ‘teaching style’ that did not match his ‘learning style’. Yes, teachers go to in services on differentiated instruction however that does not mean the will apply what they learn. My son went from a student that was ‘accused’ of being a behavior problem to becoming the top student in his grade level, once we changed teachers. His education path could have been entirely different if I as a parent did not advocate for him and others like him.

WFC, I understand your frustration however IMO education is too broad an area for someone to be an ‘expert’ regardless of the amount of training they’ve had. My son’s teacher was good with students that needing both nurturing and remediation with learning. She was not as effective with students that already ‘had it’. Even though this change resulted in a better situation for both along with other students like my son, there were bruised feelings. It makes you wonder if some educators put their own personal feelings ahead of the needs for their students.

To the point of the blog question, that is the way our society works. Those that are more actively involved and understand how the ‘system’ works can leverage it accordingly. There should not be a ‘quid pro quo’ for parental involvement. If that parent simply provided instructional reasons for the request, this would not have been an issue.

By Perkle

July 10, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

What is PERQS? A blog related to education and it’s spelled wrong. I’m sure it’s just a typo but it is kind of ironic.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

Uhmmm…Gwinnett Educator’s post made me think of this…maybe the teacher said no.

This may be an “active” parent, or this may be a “pushy” parent - there’s no way for us to know. Maybe the admin told the teacher that this parent requested her and the teacher said “no way!” The kid may be a problem, the mom may be a problem, who knows. Food for thought.

By HS Teacher Too

July 10, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

jim d, it was hardly severe. C’mon, now.

I agree, otherwise, that there are exactly the problems jim d describes.

As a teacher and a parent, I promise to “trust” the school as far as teachers, etc., unless I have already had issues with the particular teacher. Otherwise, I am a big believer in giving one the benefit of the doubt. But, the flip of that has to be a school’s promise to work to make things right if they don’t turn out that way. Now, I am not saying every time a child doesn’t like his or her teacher, to switch that child midstream. Quite the contrary; I think such life lessons are important. On the other hand, if there is truly a problem, school administrators shouldn’t just hide behind broad “we can’t do that” policy statements. Unfortunately, I have seen that happen when parents are right as often as I have seen irate parents when the administrators are right. It’s a touchy issue and the only real resolution has to be to hope that people on both sides can be reasonable — something that is often lacking.

By TeacherOf3rd

July 10, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

I often find that I am the teacher that parents request. I also end up with the students of parents who demand their child be moved from another teacher’s class. It is usually because that teacher expected that child to behave or be responsible. Our principal lets the parents request a change in teachers but only once. Even though, I have high expectations for my students as well, once they are in my room they have used up their only pass to teacher hop. I get stuck with them for the rest of the year. The teachers that parents don’t like have smaller classes and my class is overflowing.

I am tired of getting the kids of these neurotic parents and this year I have decided to do something about it! I not going to hold any punches. If I get one of those irritating parents, I am going to irritate back a little so they will move that child out of MY room for once. I am tired of getting dumped on because I don’t get parent complaints. I am sure some will say that is unprofessional but so far being professional has caused me nothing but more headaches and more than my fair share of work.

By TeacherOf3rd

July 10, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

OOPS! I don’t know why I put a comma after “Even though”. Please forgive!

By jim d

July 10, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

Maybe, —-just maybe if we as parents and administrators would listen a bit things could work out better.

In the area of placement for the following year, I always spoke with the teachers my child was leaving to ask about which teachers would better fit his next grade. I found listening to them was often benefical in that it made me more aware of what was to come. and afforded me an opportunity to prepare my child for the potential changes he would face.

While I didn’t ALWAYS approve of his new teachers I can only recall asking for one change (which bTW was approved). That change was due to a language barrier he couldn’t seem to overcome with one of Gwinnetts imported from India teachers. Which really turned out to be rather sad because she produced some excellent results with the students she was able to communicate with.

By jim d

July 10, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too,

OK-OK,

How about moderately chastised as being a disapointment?

:-)

By HS Teacher Too

July 10, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

jim d, fair enough, but I hope you take that as a compliment — which it is, in a roundabout way.

(Think about it: to be disappointed in someone, you first have to think highly enough of them that it’s even possible to be disappointed!)

By TeacherOf3rd

July 10, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this

jim d’s comment about teachers from India hits home with me. “My child can’t understand Ms.Jamaica.” We get that a lot. Yet they still keep bringing in these teachers from India, Jamaica and other countries. I understand why the parents want their child moved out of those classes. Even so, it is not fair to overcrowd my class because of it. Why don’t they stop importing these teachers? Most of them (not all) are certainly not highly qualified and even if they were it doesn’t matter if kids can’t understand what they are saying.

By jim d

July 10, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

LOL TeacherOf3rd,

Forgiveness on this blog for mispelling and punctuation is a given!!

By Truth Be Told

July 10, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

Most teachers that are employeed at my school DO NOT reside in the our attendance zone. They (teachers) have the perk (benefit) to have their child attend the school they are employed at. They are also given the choice of several teachers with which their child can be placed.

As a taxpaying parent, classroom volunteer, and VERY active PTA member - I pretty much expect the same treatment given to teachers and their children. I feel that, in choosing my home, I went out of my way to pick the best school my money could afford me. I pay taxes for that home and my child LIVES in that attendance zone. My countless hours of community service and volunteering that my school DOES NOT PAY ME FOR should afford me special requests, not unreasonable demands.

Bottom line, without parents like me - part of OUR children’s education system falls apart.

By Gwinnett Educator

July 10, 2008 11:39 AM | Link to this

Teacherof3rd, I do not think that is fair. One thing about my current school, they try their hardest to keep the number of students leveled throughout the 11 classes on my grade level.

I have never had a child moved from my class, however, I have had students placed in there after conflicts with the teacher. I personally do not have a problem with students being placed in another classroom AFTER the concerns have been validated for the move. However, validation is relative (in cases that I have seen).

When I was growing up, I had to roll with the punches. There were some teachers that I loved and some that were not so great. I had to learn how to deal with it regardless because as my dad would remind us..life isn’t fair and you can not always get what you want. I still expected to do my work and do my absolute best.

By Tony

July 10, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

An excellent point has been made about listening and working together. Listening is one of the most important skills to be used by principals in making important decisions. This is a two-way street!

Perkle, “perqs” is short for perquisites. It should not to be confused with perks.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

As a parent (and not a teacher at the time), I was very active in my kids elementary school - to the point where I knew many teachers in many grades, and had an opportunity to see how they interacted with their students.

While my school did not let you choose a teacher by name, you could write a short letter to the principal outlining you child’s learning style and the type of teacher with whom s/he might work best.

Because I knew the teachers, I was sort of coached on what to write (and what not to write) by my kids’ current teachers, and I always got the teacher I wanted - who wasn’t always the favorite teacher, either.

I never requested a move out of a teacher’s classroom, although once they hit middle and high school, there were a couple times I thought about it. I am of the make the best of a bad situation mindset, and I thought learning how to deal would be valuable. In hindsight, that idea worked about 50% of the time - there were a couple classes that I probably should’ve switched - one was the same grade and subject I taught, and on a daily basis my son would ask what we were doing in my class - red flag!

Perqs - short for perquisites, also, and more commonly, abbreviated “perks.”

By jim d

July 10, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

TeacherOf3rd

No ofense meant here. If it comes down to my childs learning or you having an extra student take a guess at which choice I’d make as a parent.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 11:53 AM | Link to this

Truth be Told - what if the teacher you request doesn’t like your child? Or doesn’t like you? Do you really want your kid in that environment? The principal can often see the big picture, which a parent or teacher may not.

I understand what you’re saying - I took advantage of what was available to me as an active involved parent at my school (actually it was available to everyone, but only a few ever took the time to take advantage), however, just from the tone of your post, if you approach the prinicpal like that, you may not get what you want. Just food for thought.

By jim d

July 10, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too

Another way of looking at it would be that one has expectations that were not met. I’m not too good with having personal expectations placed on me other than in a business environment (think it may have something to do with the 60’s).

I did however accept your previous comment as a left handed compliment. :-)

By Gwinnett Educator

July 10, 2008 11:56 AM | Link to this

I had not taken into account of students dealing with teachers that have strong accents. I remember while in college, I barely received a passing grade in one of my critical classes due to the language barrier. The instructor was Indiand and his speech was NOT understandable. We all struggled in that class. Not only was his accent very strong, he spoke almost in a whisper. Despite pleas from us, he continued on in his usual way only with a little attitude because we couldn’t understand him.

I would not want my child to go through something of that nature if I can help it.

By livininatl

July 10, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

teacherof3rd….Unreal, you have just stated that your plan for the year is to irritate parents and no longer conduct yourself in a professional manner…wow…and you wonder why parents want to get their kids far away from some teachers and will do anything to do so. (btw…in my profession you would be on the unemployment line for such behavior)

By TeacherOf3rd

July 10, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

No offense taken jim. I understand how you feel and I would feel the same. My question is why don’t administrators and systems stop bringing in teachers that students can’t understand? Is there something about the importation of teachers that I don’t understand? Are they cheaper to hire?

Some of the children that get moved to my room had good teachers to start with. The parent just may not have liked that teacher’s personality. I say too bad! That child should not have been moved if the administrator knew that teacher ran her class properly. Sometimes administrators cave to these parents just to get them out of their hair!

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 12:07 PM | Link to this

On second thought, my son did request a change once - it was his sophomore year, and he was in honors physics. The teacher was from another country (not sure which one) and had a very thick accent. He said he would have a tough enough time understanding physics without an accent - with it, it was impossible.

He switched to on-level physics, and had a great teacher. One of his best friends stayed in the honors class, and, not only did he struggle (and he’s a better science student than my son), his class was always behind my son’s in the curriculum.

By jim d

July 10, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this

TeacherOf3rd

Teachers’ pay is dismal by American standards - one reason for the shortage - with a starting salary of around $ 25,000 annually. But Indian instructors with experience and skill can expect to make between $ 30,000 to $ 40,000. which is a lot of money to them. So they really aren’t less expensive.

Consider though that they are often escaping poverty levels we can only imagine and are willing to blindly follow what they are instructed to do(an administrators dream). in order to remain in the US.

By Truth Be Told

July 10, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach - Yes, my post was direct and blunt. I really just get tired of hearing the same thing about volunteers and PTA members being overbearing and demanding. The MAJORITY of us ARE NOT that way. I do what I do for MY children, but feel that ALL children benefit from my service to OUR school.

I DO NOT take the approach or tone in this blog with teachers and/or administrators at my school. The perqs we receive are sort of an unwritten/unspoken rule of thumb most schools use and YES, it is expected. The people (teachers, staff, volunteers)that work the hardest to make any school the best education has to offer should expect no less.

I have no problems with administrators and teachers at my school. I personally know practically every teacher there, and which ones are the right fit for my child.

Sorry that my post was somewhat harsh. Volunteers get burned out, too. We get tired of the harsh words that are often hurled at us by parents that refuse to be involved.

On a side note: I have been offered, numerous times, to become a substitute teacher at my school. Most volunteers are highly educated parents that CHOOSE to be out of the traditional workplace. My children are THE reason I do what I do.

Thanks & have a great day.

By Biggy Biggs

July 10, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

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That is hardly “old school.” There is no such thing as a “personality conflict” between students and teachers or anybody and their bosses. The people in charge make the decisions, and those who are subordinate follow them. Anything else is New Age liberal garbage.

By thomas

July 10, 2008 1:09 PM | Link to this

Things like this are the reason why I am AGAINST letting parents “volunteer” at a school. Reality is that most parents, particularly the ones in middle and upper middle class schools, who volunteer regularly do it for some ulterior motive.

Let me repeat that— women who INSIST on “volunteering” at their child’s school do it for ulterior motives. They are not there for simply wanting to help the school and it’s mission. REMEMBER, REMEMBER, REMEMBER— we are talking about some of the most selfish people on the face of the Earth. In America, everything is always about ME. ME. ME. ME. Do we think about others in our daily lives? Or are all of our actions, thoughts, and motives centered around ourselves and our friends or people we like?

Women (often stay at home moms or those who work part-time) who “volunteer” at their child’s school do it to:

a) spy on the school and its staff b) try get some influence or privileges for their child (special treatment from the teacher, higher grades, placement in special clubs, higher social status at the school, etc, etc, etc.) c) gain some sort of power and influence at the school for themselves (PTA, committees, special projects, etc.)

Again, I can not say this enough— it’s always about them. I learned these lessons a very long time ago, as soon as I entered the field of education. This is why I am totally against letting any non school personnel in the building. If a person who does not work for the school system enters a school, they should IMMEDIATELY go to the office and state what business they have at the school. If it is legitimate, they should sign in, and immediately conduct their business, then be escorted off the property. They should not be allowed to roam, snoop, spy, and get into things.

They d_mn sure wouldn’t be allowed to hang out in classrooms, “work” behind the counter in the main office, touch, look at, read, or handle school papers or documents. They should not be allowed to greet the public, answer the phones, fill out SCHOOL PAPERWORK, or any other the other nonsense some schools, particularly those in middle class neighborhoods allow. These people have NO authority, right, or privilege in ANY school. They have NO right to be allowed to go in a school building and do as they please.

They are NOT helping and were NOT there to help in the first place. You see people— this is why I don’t work in a “good school”. It’s the same in middle class black schools and middle class white schools (although the degree of this nonsense is MUCH HIGHER at a upper middle class white school). I prefer working in the barrio. I would rather deal with a bunch of Mexicans and the like, rather than dealing with people who are not there to help me. With the exception of the middle class whites, most of the parents we deal with don’t work with their kids anyway. They do nothing to help these children grow educationally or intellectually. If they have any contact with the teacher or the school system, it’s more likely going to be negative or of no real benefit to the teacher, the school system, or their own child.

So I teach mostly Latinos. Is it great? No, not necessarily. There are days when I miss intellectually challenging students. But at least now, I can go to work with peace of mind. I don’t have to worry about old dogs coming to the school with foolishness or trying to play games- excuse me, I mean volunteer. NO more excuses and lies to deal with. No more silly phone calls and e-mails, like most teachers deal with. No more stupid notes about nonsense and nothing.

Again, if I have not made my point— MOST PARENTS who have contact with the school system are doing so for their own purposes. THEY ARE NOT THERE TO HELP. At least the maggot with the BS “concerns” is out in the open. At least you know he or she wants something. The “volunteer” is wasting your time, playing games, trying to curry favor at the school.

I would rather they just go get a job. Mop a floor or something. Go make some money. Perhaps if they were out working 12 hours a day, being productive, they wouldn’t have time to hang around a school and stay in some mess.

Whew, this was a good rant.

By thomas

July 10, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

I have to admit, at least many of these posters are honest. They do volunteer at the school and expect some perks from it.

I remember when we had parents who would actually substitute teach in order to gain access to the school. They spied, too. Some even subbed in their kids classes. But this was before all of this rampant “volunteering” really became in vogue. Today “helicopter parents” are the thing.

I hope I didn’t p_ss off too many people. But this whole thing still makes me angry. With all of the problems of education and the struggles schools have to deal with everyday with people from the community, the only parents who really want to spend time at a school are the ones who have some selfish motive for being there. But I guess life in America is all about power and control. Never any selfless sacifice and thoughts towards one’s fellow man or country. It’s all about me.

For the past few years, I have worked in schools with few volunteers. But the ones we had were genuine. They came, read a book, brought some food for a party, and then went home. They were not at the school three days a week, up in the office or down in some classroom to spy on the teachers and other students.

By HS Teacher Too

July 10, 2008 1:31 PM | Link to this

jim d, sounds good! :)

By jim d

July 10, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

Thomas,

MOST PARENTS who have contact with the school system are doing so for their own purposes

Well yeah! What other possible reason would they have? But consider their purpose is foremost the children. Surely you don’t fault them for that.

By Old School

July 10, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

I’ve had a number of parent volunteers over my 34 year career and the majority were amazing! One taught a group of my seniors to survey land and another helped a couple of others prepare for state-level competition. Maybe it’s my own personality but I’ve just never had a problem with the parents of any student who CHOSE to take my class. It’s the ones who get stuck with me because all other electives are full or they can’t get along with the teacher. I had one kid who was put in my class because he was “too sorry to put anywhere else.” His mom actually thanked me for taking him.

I think we may be using that “broad brush” to discuss the article and the questions raised by it. Obviously the above scenario happens but there are myriad variations and there are myriad results ranging from horrific to highly successful. If we automatically assume the worst, that’s what we just might get.

Besides, the “active PTA parent” called an AJC columnist and got what she likely wanted: a public forum and that 15 minutes of fame. Will her passion for involvement and her quest to insure the best education possible for her child continue? Is she just caving to the whinings of an entitled child who has no desire to do the work and wants an easy way out? Is this whole topic merely bait and are we rising to it?

Film at eleven…

…probably.

By TeacherOf3rd

July 10, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

livininatl wrote:

“and you wonder why parents want to get their kids far away from some teachers and will do anything to do so. “

If you will re-read my post you will see that is exactly what I am hoping for!

By livininatl

July 10, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

I often hear from teachers that the problems with the schools stem from the admin. or lack of involvement from parents, now parents are too involved and it’s now Never any selfless sacifice and thoughts towards one’s fellow man or country. It’s all about me. Well Thomas, why don’t you quit your job and volunteer. If you are like most of us you have a family to raise and those parents that are at the school have children to raise, that is their JOB and they are not going to leave it up to you or “trust” you to do it. They are going to get in there and do what they need to do to be sucessful at their job…raising their kid to the best of their ability. So until you sell your house and go work for the peace corps I don’t want to hear about selfless sacrifice.

By flipper

July 10, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

Thomas has it right with about 90% of the PTA crowd.

When I had very young children, I was at home and volunteered at my children’s schools. I refused to volunteer in my kids’ classes though b/c I considered it in poor taste. I volunteered in the other classes and would just pop in at lunchtime and give my kid a hug if I was around. I wanted my kids to see that I was pitching in but I also wanted them to have their own school experience rather than one they though I had crafted for them.

I did a lot of tutoring in those classes. I figured that even though my kids are gifted, helping the struggling kids ultimately helps my kids in the long run by making the school more rigorous overall. I have never, ever asked for a favor or requested a teacher and would never expect one - I just wanted to help the school. Well, once I did request that my youngest be placed with a child she knew b/c she was painfully shy and was scared of kindergarten. I gave the principal a list of about a dozen kids to choose from though. Some were good friends to my daughter … others were just familiar faces - all I wanted was one familiar face in the classroom to ease her fears. I would have made the same request even if I wasn’t a big volunteer.

I received a pretty major award for all of my work a couple of years ago and the principal commented (in a positive way) on my refusal to “help out” in my own child’s classroom.

Now, my kids always did seem to get really good teacher placements and my suspicion is that it was because of volunteering so much.

There were a couple of other parents like me and then there were a dozen of what I call the PTA wh_res……. these were the women who were constantly in their kids’ classrooms and would email teachers nearly “daily” with either some inane request to have a class party or to get their kid at a table with a friend…etc., etc. They made teacher requests every year and one actually went to the Super. when hers was denied. They would also kiss up to the gifted teacher (hang around his office - volunteer only for him, etc) to try to get their younger ones gifted ID’d and would go nuts if their kids didn’t get in. These moms and their kids were also some of the cliquiest I have ever seen in my life. Most of their kids were brats. Their attitudes were pretty much summed up in Truth Be Told’s posts. Perhaps she volunteers at my kids’ school - she sounds familiar!

The whole thing was really disgusting and so I was glad to get back to full time work so I could get out of the volunteer racket. My kids still get really good teacher placements most of the time… maybe it’s because they aren’t brats (most of the time anyway) ;)

I still do some volunteering - primarily at the system level - again to keep out of my kids’ lives and to avoid the PTA wh_res..

By TeacherOf3rd

July 10, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

Wow livininatl, I think you missed the point of his post! Maybe you should be in the school daily. Don’t go to volunteer, but to learn how the find the MAIN IDEA of a passage!

By thomas

July 10, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

Now you know why I had enough just seeing (not even dealing with so much) spoiled brats at school. The big ones, mostly.

As I am finding out, school isn’t really about education. For some people, it’s about social status.

“Raising my kids.” Please. What’s does raising a kid have to do with a gifted program? Which, by the way, is another social status symbol for some people. There are gifted people in all walks of life. But some reason, “gifted” programs are the all the rage in some communities. I guess “being in the gifted program” is supposed to mean something. Does it mean that your kid is better than other kids?

Since I talking about the correlation between gifted programs in middle class schools and social status, I’ll tell you a true story. A few years ago my school was trying out this new math grouping scheme. The students would be given a pretest, then grouped according to the test scores into math groups. The higher scoring kids in one group, middle scorers in another, so on. These groups would last for about 8 or 9 weeks. Then there would be another test and regrouping. This pilot program was being rolled out at a few other schools as well.

I later found out that a few parents were found diving in dumpsters trying to get old tests so that they could cheat and get their kids in the “high group”. If you knew what this math grouping really amounted to, you would laugh at the foolishness of all of this. Going to these lengths to cheat, just so they could brag to their friends that their son or daughter was in the “advanced math group”.

These are the same people who do their kids’ homework and projects by the way. It’s not about the growing and learning. It’s about playing the game. Grown folks doing an 11 year old’s homework, just so they can get an A. It doesn’t matter that Johnny can’t add fractions with unlike denominators or know when the American Revolution began. It’s only important that I have a bumper sticker on my car that says “Honor Student- Crappola Middle School”.

By blueja

July 10, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

LOL! That is so true!

By livininatl

July 10, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

Thanks to everyone here for reminding me why my husband and I work our butts off to pay for two educations for our child. As a parent I have the right to decide what is best for my child, not just in everything BUT education but everything INCLUDING education.

We want no part of the cliques or dumpster diving parents or the teachers throwing in the towel and deciding to behave unprofessionally and annoy parents(Teacherof3rd). We have always been in an environment where you are there at the pleasure of the school (students AND teachers) and they can ask you to leave should you get in the way of what should be taking place…quality education!

But hey, everything is ok, teachers are p** off and kids are failing…system is working just fine…it’s the bitter pill we choke on everytime we pay our property taxes.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Truth Be Told - thanks for your response - I was always brought up with the belief that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, which is why I said something about tone - blogs are hard to read that sometimes. Anyway, nothing wrong with being blunt here, that’s for sure.

I wrote about my experience as a parent (pre-teaching, too) - here’s my experience for the other side of the chalk:

First, I’m at a middle school, so as kids move up, there really isn’t a lot of requests for a certain teacher, more of a request for a certain team. Often kids who make a name for themselves (usually in a bad way) will be placed by admin on a team with the stricter disciplinarians, sometimes at a parent’s request (trying to turn the kid around) and sometimes totally internally driven. I’m not aware of too many parents making requests and typically our most active PTA folks are also the parents of kids in the gifted/advanced content classes - those are so limited that there’s often no way to request anyone else - those are also some of our best teachers who would be requested anyway.

What I do see is parents requesting a change mid-year. Sometimes it’s student driven (often their friend is in another class on another team), sometimes it is truly a “bad fit” (and no one’s fault), and sometimes, honestly, it is a personality conflict: parent-teacher or student-teacher, and someone is driving the conflict.

My school has an informal one-change rule - given a real problem (and not just the child wanting to be with a friend, which does happen), our admin will usually grant the switch. One time. More than once, and it tends to look like either a student-problem or a parent-problem, not a teacher problem.

I’ve worked with teachers who have had several kids asked to be moved from their rooms. In only one case was the teacher truly incompetent (to me - and she didn’t last the year, either). The others were just personality problems.

I typically get kids sent to me, and I have good results with turn-arounds in my class. Like Teacherof3rd, though, it gets annoying - you feel like you’re being punished for doing a good job. I have only ever had one parent request her son to be removed from my class as I “wasn’t giving him what he needed.” OK, not a problem - I definitely don’t take these things personally. However, the boy continued to have issues in another class and the mom actually apologized to me. She said she thought it was me, but she realized it was her son. Just a reminder to parents that your kids can and will play you to get what they want and/or to get out of trouble!

As far a the parent volunteers at my school go, most of them are absolutely wonderful and I would want their kids in my class (I had a couple of those parents this year - nice!! and their kids were terrific, too). We have a couple though, who are abrasive, and honestly, you cringe to see those names on your roster, because you know they’re going to be breathing down your neck or e-mailing you over every little thing - and never happy. The world is stressful enough - who needs to add more to it? In fairness, I had a fellow teacher wanted me for her child and I politely declined.

livininatl and others - there is a world of difference between a helicopter parent and one with a healthy level of involvement - helicopters need to cut the cord and realize that their self-esteem isn’t tied up in their child.

Well, that’s the scoop from behind the desk - more food for thought - enjoy. Totally off-topic, I have been watching The Wire on DVD, and I just started on season 4 - apparently a large part of this season takes place in an inner city middle school - can’t wait to watch! Here’s a link to a brief piece about the focus on education in that season.

By teach1

July 10, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

Wow… This parent already knows her child’s teacher. I can’t even get a class roll yet!

As for parents choosing teachers, I can see where in special situations it may be beneficial. There was the 1 time a specifically asked not to have a student. The student was my next door neighbor and we had just moved in the niehgborhood. Now chances are it would have been ok, she seemed like a good kid, But I was scared to think what I could be coming home to every night.

It would be a planning nightmare if parents were all choosing teachers and the school went along with it. I know as a teacher we spent 4 hours setting up classes for next year for the next grade level. We tried really hard to make classes that would work well together and could be successful. It would be a shame for someone to come and undo all that work.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 4:33 PM | Link to this

livininatl, why you’re very welcome. However, I might remind you that in truth, you are not paying for two educations - you’re paying your property taxes and private school tuition. Your property taxes most likely (unless you live in a really expensive house) don’t nearly cover the cost of educating your child if s/he were to attend your local public school. I do thank you for helping to support my salary though - it allows me to really enjoy my “summers off.”

LOL, HAGD :-)

By iteachlit

July 10, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Thomas, you are so right! I live and teach in a very small community-one school for elementary, one for middle school, etc. I avoid the parent volunteers in my middle school if at all possible. Most of them, not all, are the town busy bodies and can’t wait to sit at the ball games and gossip about the teachers. They also send mass e-mailings to parents about what is supposedly going on at school. Most of our volunteers are white, educated, middle-class, stay-at-home moms. I’m not talking about parents who take time off from work for Career Day or special events. They are wonderful, and they come for the right reasons. These other mothers have no life except their “volunteer” work, and you can sure bet that they expect for their kids to be given special treatment. We shouldn’t have to worry about being in the work room during planning running copies, etc., but we have to be so careful because the “volunteers” are lurking everywhere! If they overheard something, it would be repeated at the evening ball game with their own twist added to it. Ugh.

By shadow7071

July 10, 2008 5:09 PM | Link to this

We pay taxes for school staff.

Get these volunteer parents off the campus. Period. I’ve witnessed this phenomenon for about ten years now. And, some of these well intentioned folks start meddling in everyone’s business. Honestly, I don’t want some volunteer, busy body, air headed, former frustrated corporate dummy mom meddling in my business or my children’s affairs.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

shadow7071 - you have an interesting take on it that I didn’t think of…parents not wanting other parents meddling in their or their kids’ business. That’s a very good point.

I have had parents help with special events in my classroom - we’ve had parents come in to help number new books, run the school store, and the other usual things. But we don’t allow parents to help out in the guidance office (I know some schools do) or the main office. When I used to volunteer with one teacher, I would grade papers (over ten years ago - I’m sure that wouldn’t be allowed today). I would never want to send the wonderful volunteers away, but the school definitely needs to create a certain climate of professionalism and there should be rules in place about what is and what isn’t appropriate for parent volunteers - subbing is an entirely different ballgame - you really find out stuff then, but it’s not usually about the parents - it’s about the kids and teachers.

By TheBlogger

July 10, 2008 5:29 PM | Link to this

Maybe I am confused here…. when you do volunteer work, is there supposed to be any type of compensation? Silly me - I thought that volunteer work was done without any expectations of any type of compensation or favoritism or perks.

If a parent really expects any sorts of favors/perks for their volunteer work at a school, they should be kicked out on their rear!

Laura Here is a topic for another blog. I am interested in others ideas of what constitues a “good” teacher. Most students “like” a “good” teacher because they are cool and give easy grades. I am wondering what parents think defines a “good” teacher.

As a teacher myself, I work the students hard and push them to their maximum potential. I teach high school and feel like I need to prepare them for college courses (most of my students really are college bound). I know that my students don’t like all of the work (and the level of difficulty) at all while they are in my class. I have had students come back to me once in college and thank me. However, as I said, the current students I teach don’t like it one bit (and some do take it personally). My students regularly score extremely well on all of the standardized tests (end-of-course tests and high school graduation tests). I often feel like I am sacrificing student relationships for teaching.

There are other teachers in my school that the students LOVE. But, those are the same teachers that “give” grades (one never gives a grade lower than a B as a rule).

What do parents think constitues a “good” teacher?

By em

July 10, 2008 5:37 PM | Link to this

First of all, way to go Tony and Luvs for setting Perkle straight. Nothing is more irritating than to have someone who is wrong correct someone who is right. :) Enough of my cattiness and back to the topic. Unfortunately, I am finding that the posters on this blog must be the exception rather than the rule. The past couple of school years, numerous parents of students in my school are actually complaining about teachers who are good as well as challenging and requesting their children be removed from those classes. Since the GHSGT and EOCTs were implemented, our social studies department has always been well above the state average (I know, I know…that may not be saying much). My colleagues and I have achieved this by stressing content over “fluff.” I routinely meet with parents of children in honor’s and AP classes only to be harangued over the difficulty of the material. One of my colleagues was actually dressed down by the principal because of parent complaints that his AP US History class was too difficult even though he consistently has a 70% pass rate on the exam. It is one thing to be an advocate for your child and quite another to be a “helicopter” parent.

By shadow7071

July 10, 2008 6:30 PM | Link to this

Luvs2Teach

I didn’t really think much about these volunteers except that it was a nice gesture. Well meaning. Then one day a frustrated, former, corporate, dummy mom comes up to me in Panera and wants to discuss some issue my child is having in class. Then I hear other folks complaining about similar encounters.

School is a professional organization. That’s why we want people to have degrees and certifications and training. It’s not an extension of the “Home Owners Associations”.

I see these people in a different light now. I see them as people who want to be very involved in their children’s lives. It is a control thing. But when that involvement expands to other peoples children then they’ve gone too far. And honestly, it’s hard to draw the line. Because they see other children involved with their children and they think that opens the door for them to see what others are doing.

By livininatl

July 10, 2008 6:45 PM | Link to this

Luvs2teach, Happy to support your “summers off”, and knowing quite a few teachers personally I believe your comment is dripping with sarcasm.

And you are right, I do pay property taxes however, having seen the stats, the money I pay to private school works out to alot less than my local school receives for my child and I have to say…the private school is achieving incredible results with alot less money.

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 6:46 PM | Link to this

shadow7071 - wow, that situation you describe REALLY crosses the line! I laughed about the HOA comment - it’s one of the reasons I purposely bought a home without one.

I really don’t even know what to say to that (and you’ve read my posts, lol, that I’m speechless actually says A LOT!)

Maybe certain volunteering situations require some kind of half-day “privacy and appropriateness” training - who knows. I am aware of some legal undercurrents rumbling lately - liability and rights to privacy, and other stuff concerning parent volunteers - maybe Tony can speak more about that?

By livininatl

July 10, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this

I would like to see anyone that has contact with my kid go through a drug screening, lie detector, GMAT, Myers Briggs, IQ, Body Mass…ok I get a little carried away, how about a criminal background check if you are going to interact with other peoples kids?

By luvs2teach

July 10, 2008 7:34 PM | Link to this

livininatl - glad you got the joke :-) All my many non-teacher friends thought it was funny, too.

Seriously though, for an entirely different purpose than blogging, I have been researching what people pay in property taxes versus what the schools in their districts pay per child. One of the biggest money-suckers is SPED because of the many federal rules with which compliance is required. Then there are the plethora of social programs that need to be implemented - add the salaries and physical plant costs - well, it’s no wonder that a private school can do more with less - their mission is easier. They only have to teach - we’re supposed to save the world - or at least American culture as we know it.

As far as your choice to go private goes - well, good for you! Regular bloggers here know that I’m all about parents making the right choice for their kids whether that choice is public, private, or homeschool. The important part to me is that you’re making a conscious choice. Truth be told, I’d love to work for a private school, but they don’t pay enough. I’m not at a point in my life where I can trade off an easier job for less pay - yet.

The other statement that goes hand in hand with property taxes is the statement, “I pay your salary so I deserve…or want…etc.”

Well, show me an ordinary individual (not Bill Gates or Donald Trump) who actually pays in property taxes what I make and I’ll wash their car for free or something, lol.

I have an idea for a blog - stupid things people say that let you know you in for a long conversation that goes nowhere. As a teacher I vote for 1. Georgia is 50th because of the teacher unions, 2. Teachers are only in it for the money, summers off, or tenure. 3. I pay your salary.

As a parent I vote for 1. I have a degree in education so I know what’s best for your child.

And the thing kids say that drives me up the wall? “Did we do anything yesterday while I was out?” “No, honey, we were so worried about you we couldn’t.”

By catlady

July 10, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

We have very very few parent volunteers currently. They overhear waayy too much, and they seem to expect some special treatment for their kids. So do many of my colleagues (teachers) and staff members, even for their nieces, nephews, and grandchildren! Our principal is trying to get a handle on this, but has not addressed it strongly enough, IMHO (atho she is quite overly quick to address other “problems”.)

Until a few years ago, parents were free to request teachers. I think that is largely over, except I see my fellow teachers doing it successfully.

For my three children, total 39 years in public school, I requested once that my child be in a certain teacher’s science class in middle school. This was before school started. I had taught with the man and knew he was just what my daughter needed to encourage her interests. It worked—altho she had been upset to hear of the move at first (I had RUINED her year!), she came home on the second day of school and admitted that she understood why I had requested the change. The rest of the time, they learned to get along with quite a few teachers I would not have chosen, that I would not have thought would be a good match (and were not), but it was important that they learn to adapt. They never, however, faced teachers whose English was very difficult to understand. They were taught by some sub-par (IMHO) teachers, but my kids never knew I thought so. I filled in the blanks.

What I have seen here in the past is parents who want their kids to be in the IN class with the other IN students and the IN teacher. This loaded the other classes with uninvolved parents, but reinforced the perception that the IN teacher was so incredible—great test scores!

Until 1988 I had many great parent (and other) volunteers who did not seem to have ulterior motives. It seems to me like, more and more, everything is all about getting an advantage, getting what you want, ME FIRST/ONLY. We see it on every level.

By catlady

July 10, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

We have very very few parent volunteers currently. They overhear waayy too much, and they seem to expect some special treatment for their kids. So do many of my colleagues (teachers) and staff members, even for their nieces, nephews, and grandchildren! Our principal is trying to get a handle on this, but has not addressed it strongly enough, IMHO (atho she is quite overly quick to address other “problems”.)

Until a few years ago, parents were free to request teachers. I think that is largely over, except I see my fellow teachers doing it successfully.

For my three children, total 39 years in public school, I requested once that my child be in a certain teacher’s science class in middle school. This was before school started. I had taught with the man and knew he was just what my daughter needed to encourage her interests. It worked—altho she had been upset to hear of the move at first (I had RUINED her year!), she came home on the second day of school and admitted that she understood why I had requested the change. The rest of the time, they learned to get along with quite a few teachers I would not have chosen, that I would not have thought would be a good match (and were not), but it was important that they learn to adapt. They never, however, faced teachers whose English was very difficult to understand. They were taught by some sub-par (IMHO) teachers, but my kids never knew I thought so. I filled in the blanks.

What I have seen here in the past is parents who want their kids to be in the IN class with the other IN students and the IN teacher. This loaded the other classes with uninvolved parents, but reinforced the perception that the IN teacher was so incredible—great test scores!

Until 1988 I had many great parent (and other) volunteers who did not seem to have ulterior motives. It seems to me like, more and more, everything is all about getting an advantage, getting what you want, ME FIRST/ONLY. We see it on every level.

By shadow7071

July 10, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this

Luvs

In my neighborhood I’m the President, VP, Secretary and treasure of HOA. The horses don’t get a vote.

Yes, that experience was way over the top. I recommended that they needed to find other outlets for doing good and saving the planet.

By Paula

July 10, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this

Wow! I can’t believe how bitter many of the posters feel towards volunteers. As one of the stay-at-home moms who volunteer every year, I am greatly offended. I volunteer as a robotics coach for our school and as a copy mom (making copies, laminating etc.) for one or two teachers every year. I always assumed that I was being helpful to the teachers but now that I have been educated by all of you I will stop immediately. I suppose the school could somehow come up with the money to run the robotics and pay a real teacher to run it. Perhaps they will reimburse me the $2000 I have invested in the class over the past 3 years. I wouldn’t want the teachers and administration to feel they owe me anything. I will also immediately stop spending time and money on the teacher appreciation lunches.

In the previous posts I noticed that many of the teachers admit requesting a teacher change at some point in their child’s education. Yet I have never requested a teacher change or even teacher preference, nor have any of my friends who also volunteer.

Also, I have to ask. What are you teachers discussing that you don’t want parent volunteers to hear? If you are discussing students shouldn’t you be behind closed doors? Is it common to discuss students in the hallways and work room? Are you discussing your personal life or the personal lives of others? Is that considered professional behavior?

I am so glad I read all the comments. Now that I have been educated I will immediately stop volunteering and encourage all my friends and neighbors to stop as well. Silly me, I thought we were all working together to make our schools the best they can be for all the students.

By love my 4 kids

July 11, 2008 2:21 AM | Link to this

All of the above comments and rants by both teachers and parents only go to illustrate the inherent flaws of a socialist (communist) system. Public schools are a great socialist enterprise whereby forced redistribution of wealth by required financial support, students are reduced to egalitarian status, regardless of their intellectual abilities or wealth. Yet, our Constitution establishes and supports a free market economy. If one goes to Wendy’s and places an order and receives lousy food, plus a few personal insults, then they would probably demand their money back and never return. Yet, if the equivalent happens at a public school, there is no money back guarantee. In fact, one cannot even refuse the sub-par “food” unless one has the financial means to do so. What is a parent to do to? Well, “volunteering” is seen as a way to do an end run around the socialist system and make it more responsive to the individual consumer. What’s wrong with that?

By WFC

July 11, 2008 8:31 AM | Link to this

I’m a high school guy so my comments don’t appply to elementary or middle schools.

• In 31 years of teaching/coaching, I’ve NEVER had a parent volunteer in my classroom. How exactly are they supposed to know what’s happening? Osmosis?

• I’ve taught thousands of students and received feedback from hundreds. I’ve adapted over the years. A parent’s experience with only his/her child is supposed to trump that? I don’t think so.

*Most parents don’t even know their own child as well as they think they do.

*I lived in the district where I taught. My son attends Northview where I taught. A parent who drops in now and then is supposed to know more than I do? Not bloody likely!

• I’m not anti-parent involvement and there are hundreds of North Fulton parents who will confirm this. However, I dedicated my life to teaching and studied hard. I became very tired of some parents running to the principal about how “demanding” I was. Yeah, that’s really going to work in college.

By catlady

July 11, 2008 8:51 AM | Link to this

Luvs-“I have an idea for a blog - stupid things people say that let you know you in for a long conversation that goes nowhere. “

Here is the one I have loved. “He is bored in your class, that is why he is failing.”

Second, “He won’t miss anything while we are gone on vacation for a week, will he?”

Third, “Why are all the teachers against my son?”

Fourth, “She won’t let me……(fill in the blank).”

Fifth, “Will you put together some stuff I can work with him on?” (after hours of prep, he never does it and turns it in)

By WFC

July 11, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

LIVINATL: I noticed that you offered no arguments refuting my points. The best you could muster was a lame comment about language. BTW… exactly what did you study and where?

Can you pronounce “ask” properly or does it come out “ax?”

By WFC

July 11, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

LIVINATL: I noticed that you offered no arguments refuting my points. The best you could muster was a lame comment about language. BTW… exactly what did you study and where?

Can you pronounce “ask” properly or does it come out “ax?”

By catlady

July 11, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

Luvs, we had a teacher who was truly gifted at getting kids out of her room and into our rooms. These were the troublemakers or the low achievers, and although it was unfair and annoying, it became a topic of discussion as we watched her in action each year, and took bets on how long child x would last in her room.

We have a teacher now who is allowed to say who she will and will not teach. She is the coach’s wife and is catered to constantly by the administration. Since she was hired specificially (on her terms) to work with the kids who are behind, it is a real problem that she only will work with certain ones. I have NOT found that very funny.

This topic reminds me of all the volunteer parents, mostly dads, who coach little league and other sports and, miraculously, their sons/daughters play every minute of every game because the coach says they are the best.

By thomas

July 11, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Paula, I am sorry that you feel “greatly offended” by the fact that we are talking about what really happens in schools. It is reality. It is what these people do. You may have good intentions by working at your child’s school. But even you too go for your own benefit. I am sure being the “robotics coach” is fun and you get to work with the “good” kids.

But we don’t need people to come in off the street to work with our “good” kids. Our own teachers can and will run the those academic clubs and teams that the “good” kids are on. They want to take on those little perks, like the Beta Club, Science Club, and “robotics team”. What schools NEED is for volunteers to come in and work with our struggling kids. We need people to come in and spend an hour a week reading with a small group. That’s just one hour week.

THESE “VOLUNTEERS” CAN SPEND ALL OF THIS TIME THEY ARE CAMPED OUT AT SCHOOL AND MAKE A DIFFERENCE- WORKING WITH KIDS TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE!!!!! NOT BS’ING, SPYING, SNOOPING, “WORKING IN THE OFFICE.” We don’t need you to work in the office!!!!! Our kids don’t benefit by you working in the office!!!! Only you benefit by working in the office. Geez.

Paula, we don’t need you to come to the school and play (robotics team). We don’t need you to “make copies.” We need you come to the school, work with the kids, so you can help us make a difference with our children.

This is something I didn’t think about until today. I have had volunteers who would come to the school and work with the kids. They would read stories to the class, read with an individual student or small group (book buddies), or help a student with math. These are REAL volunteers. This volunteers were at a majority black school by the way. Some examples of these people were a school bus driver who came in during his break between runs, a retired grandfather, a stay at home mom, etc. REAL VOLUNTEERS. Not people whose sole agenda was to come down to the school to spy on the teachers and staff and report gossip in the community. Not people who came down to the school to suck up with the hopes of receiving some quid pro quo in exchange for bringing some brownies for a party.

I am so glad I had this revelation. Now we all know— VOLUNTEERS MUST COME TO THE SCHOOL TO HELP THE CHILDREN.

By luvs2teach

July 11, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

catlady - I guess I’m pretty lucky in that my school doesn’t have as much of the “small town” stuff going on. I definitely saw the “coaching phenomena” when my son played football, though.

We do have a very strict team of teachers at my school and, while most troubled kids respond ok to that discipline, some don’t - my team always seems to get those kids. We’re not loosey-goosey, but we don’t write up every little thing either. Luckily, 9 times out of 10, the kids responds and does well on our team, but I resent being the fall-back.

Paula - rather than giving up, look at these comments for what they - potential problems in a volunteering situation. Like I said, most of the volunteers at my school are wonderful, and the school runs more smoothly as a result. But there are people who do it for ulterior motives and there are people who cross the line (see shadow7071’s post - and that’s a parent, not a teacher, complaining about another parent who clearly overstepped boundaries). I have a feeling that this may be more of a probelm in cetain schools - small-town schools, or tight-knit neighborhood schools - particularly those with lots of stay-at-home moms who still feel some need to compete (just read a couple weeks of Momania - you’ll see what I mean - and nothing against SAHM - it’s a great choice). My feeling is that these people are by nature busybodies, and would be whether they were working in an office, volunteering at their kids schools, or on a HOA. Some people are just that way.

By luvs2teach

July 11, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

Actually Paula I would love for you to come to my school and make copies - that is a time-sucker right there! It would free me up to grade something or plan something or even tutor someone one-on-one. If you want to work one on one with the kids, I can arrange that, too - and I’ve worked with the robotics group - kids are kids - sometimes they’re great, and sometimes they’re a pain in the you-know-what! Sometimes the bright ones are the worst because they are more creative at finding ways to get in trouble, lol.

thomas - why the hate, man? Is it really that bad where you are? Please don’t speak for all of us. I could list on one the hand (and still have fingers left) the volunteers at my school (a large metro MS) who I think are in it for ulterior motives. Most are great, and are willing to do whatever scut-work you throw their way. Their only motive is wanting to do something to make our school better - better for the neighborhood, better for their kids - sure, even cynically, better for their property values. So what. I live in my district and I appreciate what they do as a homeowner and as a teacher. I don’t care if they are copying paper or tutoring one on one - their help is valuable. My school has a no office (filing private records) or grading help policy, so that helps with gossip/nosiness.

As shocked as I was with shadow7071’s story, that was out-of-line, but also a problem with that one woman, which should’ve been addressed by the administration. Not all volunteers are like that though.

By thomas

July 11, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach, it isn’t about being mad at volunteers. I am all for school volunteers. The discussion has been about the women (usually stay-at-home moms in well to do suburbs) who go to school everyday with the intention of “working” there for some nefarious benefit. I, and others, are talking about people who hang out at schools and basically spend no time actually helping any students. It is the people who are essentially hanging out at the school that is the problem. These are the people who are nosy, gossiping, trying to run things, and expecting special treatment from the school staff.

The lady who CALLED Laura Diamond, AJC Education Reporter, is a prime example. Just because this lady butted her way into a school (essentially to butter her own bread), she thinks she is entitled to whatever she wants— in this case the “IN” teacher (as someone else put it).

[Which, by the way, is so true. People wanting their child in a particular class because his or her friends are in that class. Is that what school really about? Is it just a social environment to manuever through or an institution dedicated to study and intellectual growth?]

By luvs2teach

July 11, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

thomas - gotcha - I’m willing to bet that you see much more of that in elementary than I do middle - parent involvement drops off, and it’s usually only the very dedicated that stick around. Also as I said in one of my posts yesterday, there’s not a lot you can do to request a certain teacher in middle school without requesting a team. Teams shift and you may like one person on a team, and not another.

When my oldest went to kindergarten, I was still in college (I went back - I’m young, but not that young), and I was intimidated by the other parents (and the teachers, too, a little) and I didn’t volunteer much at all (although I went to EVERYTHING the school offered for parents). I started volunteering the following year because my child’s first grade teacher knew I was majoring in science and she asked me to help with their science fair.

By shadow7071

July 11, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

Luvs,

Be sure that I’m not against volunteering. There are many gaps in the system that volunteers can fill. And, I’m glad that there are folks who can step up and fill these gaps. Sincerely, I wish I had the time to volunteer.

The person that crossed my path was a volunteer. She was involved with many activities. Because of her former corporate experience she knew how to take charge and get things done. She was a star. She become to believe that she was empowered. After all, the folks at school allowed her to fly with projects and initiatives. Other moms were impressed with her energy and talents. They empowered her.

Then one day she crossed the boundary. She was shocked that I was upset with her. She was more shocked when I had her significantly curtailed from some of her volunteer activities. She was more shocked when the school backed me and not her. It was a painful experience for her. She eventually moved from our area of the county.

Postmortem - The volunteer didn’t understand her role. She didn’t know where the boundaries were. The school didn’t define the role. They didn’t communicate boundaries. She underestimated my response to the issue. She thought I would be delighted to hear that my child was having an issue. And, she thought I would be delighted to hear this news from her and not the school. I overreacted. Being a corporate executive I knew where she was coming from. I knew where her head was. I knew her thinking. But I knew that she has crossed the line. I knew that she had made a fatal error in judgement. Corporate wannabes don’t make fatal errors in judgement. I had her terminated from her volunteer position.

By luvs2teach

July 11, 2008 4:20 PM | Link to this

shadow7071 - I didn’t think you were against all volunteering - I think you were (rightfully) concerned about what information volunteers were privy to as well as proper boundaries for volunteers (and teachers, too - Paula brought up a good point when she asked just what were we all talking about in the workroom that we didn’t want parents to overhear - time and place, people, time and place).

For all the problems I may have at my school, or I have had with my personal children throughout their educational careers (which are almost over - yay!), daily I read this blog and realize many folks have it far, far worse. I’ve been really lucky - the bulk of my kids teachers have been not just good, but great; I’ve been mostly happy with their schools, classmates, fellow parents, and administration. I’ve had mostly positive experiences as a teacher, too - most of my admin have been great, most of my co-workers also. I met some wonderful kids and great parents, and most of the real pains-in-the-butt moved before the year was out (or homeschooled, lol).

Off-topic, but I have to promote: I’m in 3 episodes on season 4 of The Wire and the scenes in the middle schools are GREAT! There is a character called Prezbylewski who leaves the police force to become a teacher at an inner city school - the way they wrote his first day teaching, I swear someone was a fly on a wall somewhere - it was very realistic. I highly recommend watching it (it’s a great series anyway) for anyone who wants to know why first year teachers get stuck in the most challenging of schools and then don’t stick around, and also the challenges facing inner city kids that pull them away from education. There are lots of clips on YouTube - check it out.

By catlady

July 11, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

I’d love to discuss with fellow bloggers the perqs given to teachers at the various schools regarding their kids. When I taught at a small, country school, the expectation was that teachers’ kids were to be treated like everyone else. I have even (this tells my age :) paddled a couple, and their parents did not try to jump in. I guess taught 15 or 16 children of fellow staff members back then, with no problems. When the bell rang to start the day, the children were my responsibility. If one was sick I would send a note to mama or daddy via another child, but otherwise it was a very hands off policy. I did the same when my children were in their rooms.

In my current school, many of the teachers expect special consideration for their children: choice of teacher, handling with kid gloves, the children come to see mama every hour, mama intervenes on the child’s behalf at the drop of a hat, mama comes in to feel their heads, etc. It is very harmful to the kids, IMHO, and unprofessional. The parapros and office staff expect similar treatment, as well as the 3 school volunteers we have, even for grandchildren and nieces and nephews. My principal has not taken the bull by the horns on this one. I’d love to hear of experiences other teachers have had on this, or a principal’s view from Tony, perhaps.

By thomas

July 11, 2008 11:03 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

I have taught the kids of other teachers, and of course, so have my colleagues. In all of my experiences, I have only had one parent who was overboard with her son. She was a parapro at the school. She was black and I think her big belief was that every problem she and her son had was due to racism. “Racist, white teachers,” I believe. This, in and of its self, is an incredible story. I didn’t catch the worst of it. His previous teacher almost went mad.

I did know of another teacher, who happened to be white, whose daughter was a spoiled brat. She was pure obnoxious. She would run to her mother’s room immediately after school and would run up and down the hallways, bugging anybody in sight. She thought could do anything she pleased. This same teacher also was the typical jerk parent to her colleague that year when it came to her daughter.

Yet other teachers, black and white, have been great. You never had any problems from them. I mean I have worked with parapros and their children, too. They were good, too. I just remembered— I did have a lunch room monitor’s son. She was crazy. She thought her son was special and that I should give him a special throne, robe, and crown. Needlessly to say, I was glad that boy moved on. But the kids was OK. He really wasn’t a problem. It was the mom who stirred up trouble.

So as a whole, over a career, working in all kinds of schools, working with all kinds of races and social classes, with parapros, teachers, cafteria workers, janitors, etc. most of the people were cool. Some children were spoiled brats, but most were OK. IT ALL DEPENDED ON THE SCHOOL. If the principal had set the appropriate tone, there was no problem.

By catlady

July 12, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

You can’t blame a parent for wanting the best for their child

a) Sometimes parents do not KNOW what is best for their child in the school situation. Unless they are there every day, in and out of every classroom, they only have a partial view of what goes on. They frequently want what is best for them (the parent). I have had the experience that I thought a particular teacher was not going to work out (but did not request a change) and then it turns out that that teacher was terrific for my child (sometimes in a very subtle way).

b) I can blame anyone who thinks their child is more important than another, based on ANY criteria. We already see too much of that in the adult world (money, skin color, class, handicapped status). Schools are supposed to be an equalizer (all too true, academically, with NCLB :) ) I think there is too much entitlement mentality already.

By jim d

July 14, 2008 5:11 PM | Link to this

OH DEAR!! Cat,

a) and sometimes they do

b) mine is always more important to me based on the fact he’s mine.

And neither of these is disputable.

By catlady

July 14, 2008 9:19 PM | Link to this

Agreed on both, from a parent’s point of view. I just don’t think anyone (on this Earth) has all knowledge about their child or the attributes of teachers in their school. We give it our best go.

By jim d

July 15, 2008 7:11 AM | Link to this

cat,

agreed. However allow me to point out that i am the one feeding and clothing him. i am the one that has more to do with his perceptions than any other teacher. I am the one that is ultimately responsible for many of his actions. In light of that, I’d say that if I’ve been doing my job as a parent I should have a better grasp of who he is than anyone else could possibly have. Look at it this way, teachers generally had my child for maybe an hour a day for 180 days a year, in a group setting, in HS. He’s mine the rest of the time. So as an involved parent i would suggest I do know him better.

By Janet

July 16, 2008 7:00 PM | Link to this

I don’t think parents should be allowed to request preferential treatment for their child such as the lead in the play, make the team, etc. But requesting a certain teacher is a little different. I would not request a teacher only because my child wanted one. And never because the teacher was easiest or less strict. I’m all for harder and more strict.

I agree that sometimes parents are the problem for a teacher. I have a friend who is at school daily to discuss her child’s grades, etc. and this child is an A+ student!

By FLmom

July 17, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Geez, I’m glad I don’t live in GA! Volunteering at our elementary school is strongly encouraged, and at any given time there are many volunteers on campus. Some are business people who donate their time, some are grandparents, and some are SAHM’s just like me who enjoy helping our school. I am not highly educated nor do I have a professional background, but I’m not stupid either. I’ve helped kids with their reading, gone on field trips and done the PTA thing for years; I’ve made many copies for many people at the school and I don’t mind because I feel our teachers have enough to do as it is-time I spend doing copies for them is time they can spend teaching. What has surprised me are the things I overhear while I’m at the school. Some teachers think nothing of discussing issues with a child in front of me (probably because I’ve been there so long and they know I keep my mouth shut), while others-usually newer teachers-sometimes seem to resent me being in the copy room at all. I ignore the looks and attitudes I get from them because I know the school genuinely wants their volunteers there and if they feel they can’t talk in front of me perhaps they are having conversations in places where they shouldn’t. In all my years at the school I’ve only known of one mom who volunteered who was really over the top when it came to her kid, and the office finally solved the probem…by hiring her! She was in the school and close to her little darling, but had a job to do which meant she couldn’t spend her day harrassing the teacher, and it worked out pretty well. Not a solution I would have come up with, but pretty smart in the long run.