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DEL.ICIO.USLove-hate relationship with vouchers
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
I wrote about the expected growth for year two of the Georgia Special Needs Scholarship. This program gives vouchers to students with disabilities.
(Learn about the new Georgia Tax Credit voucher program here.)
Vouchers remain controversial. Opponents say it takes money away from public schools and question whether public money should go to parochial schools. Supporters say it provides options for families beyond their neighborhood school.
Vouchers aren’t a clear-cut issue. Many parents and taxpayers seem OK with certain types of vouchers.
They support choice for families whose kids attend failing schools and for students with disabilities. This past year, several people said vouchers would be appropriate for Clayton students if the district loses accreditation.
Ask them if wealthy families whose children already attend private schools should be eligible for vouchers and many say no.
Why are vouchers OK for some, but not for all?
Comments
By TheBlogger
July 9, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this
Regarding choice - Everyone already has a choice. They have a choice where to live which then is in a public school area. Aren’t people supposed to check out the local school(s) before they move? They have a choice between that public school and any private school, if they wish to pay for it.
Vouchers is (mostly) simply a back-door way for the wealthy to steal (more) money from the middle class to help pay for their uppity private school for their brats.
I am okay with vouchers for special needs students only if the local public school cannot service those kids (special facilities, etc.).
If anyone is unhappy with their local school that may be “failing”, they need to become involved with the school to work and improve it. For expample, if Clayton County parents want their local schools and school board to improve, they need to become involved - don’t expect for others to bail them out!
By simon
July 9, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this
Voucher is another one of government handout program, and I don’t understand why conservatives support this idea - other than their desire to completely destroy public schools. I agree with the Blogger that everyone already has a choice. Voucher is about how those choices must be financed. I say people pay for their own choices.
By Don't Assume
July 9, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
Why is it assumed that “wealthy families” are the ones populating the private schools? We are certainly not a “wealthy family” but have made it a priority to send our two children to private school each year. We are dreading the tuition bill that is coming up again soon but feel that it’s worth it. I would love to have a voucher to help- even partially- with the cost of tuition. I am already paying for the public schools we aren’t using, so why not? And what’s wrong with the “wealthy families” getting the break as well- the class envy in this country these days is unreal. People should be able to keep what they earn and make decisions about how they spend it- no matter how much they’ve earned.
By jim d
July 9, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this
Dear Blogger,
They have a choice where to live
Not EVERYONE has that choice. Think about it.
By Tony
July 9, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this
Fairness is a big issue regarding vouchers. TheBlogger has hit one of the nails on the head - everyone already has a choice. To me the other nail is based on who gets admitted into a school by using a voucher. With the special needs vouchers, I have already seen private schools reject students based on the special education status. Students with learning disabilities were accepted. Students with physical handicaps and emotion/behavioral needs were rejected. Public schools do not get to pick their students. We have to take everyone.
TheBlogger is also right on the mark by telling that parent involvement makes a difference. Being involved with your child’s education can be as simple as talking about what was learned at the supper table. A recent study elaborated on how this simple investment in conversation with your child amounts to a $1,000 per year contribution to the school. See this article.
Stop fooling yourselves into thinking vouchers and school choice are solutions that will benefit everyone. There is no evidence that vouchers improve education. All the reviews have been mixed, at best. Improving education begins at home with parents setting expectations and supporting the hard work required for a good education.
By Tony
July 9, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this
Please elaborate on the ones who do not have a choice on where to live.
By simon
July 9, 2008 6:34 PM | Link to this
Don’t assume:
School taxes are not a user fee. Just because you chose not to use it doesn’t mean you should get any of it back. I’m glad you are happy with the choice you made, but don’t depend on other tax payers to subsidize your choice.
By TheBlogger
July 9, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this
Don’t Assume
My dear, you made a choice to send your children to private school.
I have no children and yet have been paying taxes for public education for over 20 years.
If you get your tax money back (via vouchers) and “spend your money the way you want” then I simply want my money back! Why not? I have no children!
Public schools were set up so that everyone has equal access to education for K-12. And, everyone should pay for it (regardless if they have children or not, or if they send their kids to private school). The purpose of this was to better society overall.
Again, if you don’t like your local public school, it is up to you to work to improve it. You can make a difference. You don’t have to run and hide and isolate your children in a private school. You don’t have to pay the private school tuition money. But, of course, that is your choice.
Another choice, as already mentioned, is to move to an area with a local public school that you do approve of - it is simple as that.
SAY NO TO VOUCHERS
By catlady
July 9, 2008 7:01 PM | Link to this
Tony, I would guess the earlier blogger is referring to people who cannot afford to live in a certain area. If the area serves housing in the $400,000-600,000 range, for example I certainly could not afford to live there. If you work at, or near, minimum wage, there are many areas effectively closed to you.
So saying, I think with dilligence a less wealthy parent CAN find a place to live with good schools, but it takes making a great deal of effort sometimes to do it.
On topic, these vouchers are discriminatory because for many of us in the state there are NO private schools available. I find it reprehensible that there are certain “benefits” not available to all citizens in Georgia, whether they live in a metro area or not. State employee health insurance is the same way. Unless you live in certain (mostly metro) areas, you cannot get certain much cheaper kinds of health insurance (HMO) offered to other state employees.
Laura, any chance you can get the information about how many kids stayed in their private schools, etc, that we suggested several weeks ago?
By luvs2teach
July 9, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this
For the most part I’m against vouchers, but I’m ok with them for SPED, and I’ll tell you why: for many SPED kids, it’s cheaper to give the voucher.
When you see a per average spending for kids in your district, remember there are kids who exceed that number, mainly SPED. For example, some kids need smaller classes and others need paras, both of which drive up the costs of educating those children. Then add to that the range of qualifying SPED and trying to find a best fit for each kid - expensive! Worst of all, the SPED kids are generally the ones with whom we do the worst.
The money is better spent at schools where small classes are the norm or at schools that specialize in a particular student’s disability. The private schools are also free from NCLB, and that can also be a welcome relief to the child and his or her parents.
AS far as vouchers in general, I’m dead set against it unless there is a major change in how schools are funded. How fair is it for someone who chose to live in North Fulton or Alpharetta, and pay much higher property taxes to be given the same voucher as someone who lives in an apartment at the other end of the district? (Don’t give me the ‘renters pay tax, too,’ argument - I know they do, but you can’t convince me it’s anywhere close to what someone in a McMansion is paying). It’s not fair, and I have a hard time believing that the voucher would be equivalent or more than some people’s tax contribution. Show me the math, and I might change my mind…
But there are still several other problems - catlady mentioned the lack of choice - hey, I’ve got a voucher, but nowhere to go! Tony mentioned students being rejected - you think those schools in North Fulton or East Cobb are just going to open up their doors? Look what happened when Henry and Fayette Counties thought they might have to take Clayton kids. Not to mention selective private schools (which, if a student is poor enough and deserving enough and smart enough, s/he can often get a scholarship anyway) - I don’t see them magically opening up their doors. There is a valid concern about the whole separation of church and state issue if public money is used to go to a church-funded school. Finaly, I’m sure that if we ever saw wholesale voucher availablity, the strings attached would be insane.
I’m the first to say we need to change some things in public education, but vouchers are not the answer (I’m less against tax credits, though - I would like to see more about that). I would like more choice - there have been studies that show parents who have the option of making a choice, even by lottery, often have students that perform better even if they don’t get their first choice school.
BTW - great article Tony! - thanks for sharing.
By TheBlogger
July 9, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this
A great public high school that includes areas with dirt cheap housing? Try Druid Hills High School in DeKalb County. They service some of the lowest levels of income from people living in the Clarkston area and the school is regularly rated highly in Newsweek for academics. They have made AYP every year and last year with distinction.
Clarkston is a small town near I-285 and so you can access it almost no matter where you work in Atlanta.
Again, moving to an area with a good school should be a priority for parents. But, if they choose to not do this, that is their choice. Parents should do just a little bit of research to find a school that they like and then look for an area to live within that school district.
People living in very rural areas will have trouble with this. But then again, those same people would in no way benefit from any type of voucher program.
SAY NO TO VOUCHERS
By jim d
July 10, 2008 5:06 AM | Link to this
No to vouchers?
OK—When schools of choice are opened.
By catlady
July 10, 2008 7:41 AM | Link to this
Another problem with vouchers concerns the parents who cannot afford to provide the transportation/meals. So even if they find a school who will admit their kid for the price, they still cannot set up the attendance. Vouchers really are a sop to the middle class, IMHO.
jim d, in 1995 Clarke County started a program of schools of choice. I have never heard anything about how that worked, have you? Parents could name their top 3 elementary schools, etc, and as I recall transportation was provided (with children changing buses at certain points, I believe.) Most students were supposed to get their first choice school, but it was pretty well guaranteed that they would get one of the three. Of course, the middle class parents left in the public schools rushed to sign up, and the poorer, less educated never did, and got sent to their neighborhood schools. If you can find out anything evaluative about how that worked, please let me know.
By jim d
July 10, 2008 7:50 AM | Link to this
Tony,
Please elaborate on the ones who do not have a choice on where to live.
Here’s a quickie—-how about a single mom raising a couple of kids that say is working a couple of jobs just to make ends meet? Perhaps no transportation and living within walking distance of her jobs. Would you suggest she has a real choice in where her kids go to school?
Maybe even a homeless family staying with friends or realtives due to some rather tragic events? Do they have a choice?
But for the grace of God, that could be anyone of us.
So my question is—Do these less fortunate deserve the same opportunities as everyone else? Is it ok with everyone here to just throw them away—condeming them to a life without a proper education? Or should we strive to provide them with the best education possible in an attempt to break the cycle?
By jim d
July 10, 2008 8:22 AM | Link to this
Cat,
I’m not familar with the efforts in clarke County.
However, there was a study done on more of a national level which compared student academic results before and after entering a choice system which evaluated the same students before and after.
You might find this link of interest.
By WFC
July 10, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this
Vouchers are a carnival “shell game” and here is why:
Quality private schools (Westminster, Pace, Marist, Woodward, etc.) will find ways to reject vouchers because their paying families don’t want their children going to school with SPEDS and dullards.
Vouchers won’t work at elite public schools such as Northview (where I taught and my son still attends) because they will have to compete with culture-driven Asian kids. My son, Beau, would be a “top ten” student in his class at most Georgia public high schools. He’s probably about #35 at Northview. How does a “voucher kid” compete with that?
Most important! The voucher amount of money doesn’t come close to paying for special ed services. Not even close. In my many years as a teacher and administrator in Fulton County, I served on dozens of IEP commitees concerning special ed. We rejected almost all applications because of the INCREDIBLE cost of placing a child in special ed. Some of the battles were monumental. By the way, I was very “pro-special ed,” volunteering to teach “team taught” (with Sp. Ed. teachers) sections of academic classes.
By jim d
July 10, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this
Cat the intersting thing about this study is that it pretty well states that choice isn’t the contributing factor in improvement. It rather indicates that it may be the class of people that are informed enough to make intelligent choices and even peer pressure from within some of the better schools that is having a more positive effect.
None the less —an interesting article.
By jim d
July 10, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this
Perhaps the answer to improving schools is as simple as giving the kids more say.
By creating a sense of being in control of their own destiny perhaps students would become a bit more interested in their educational outcomes.
Now before evryone goes off on me this morning telling me kids should be seen but not heard—hear me out.
Students that are more involved in the decision making in their schools, those that participate in leadership roles, are often the ones that perform better academically. The question is if providing more leadership possibilities would help more students academically, perhaps even create a bit more peer pressure for those less involved.
I realize that many of the young people I have had the priviledge of working with are highly self motivated—goal oriented kids. am I being a bit over optimestic in thinking that kids will generally step up to a challenge, specifically when they feel they have some control?
By luvs2teach
July 10, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this
jim d - I read about a similar study (looking at choice in Chicago area schools) and the researchers came to the same conclusion - it was the availability of the choice more than the choice itself that was important. Kids whose parents entered the lottery (for their school of choice) generally did better *even when they didn’t get their choice school.”
That to me speaks volumes about parent involvement and knowledge about the educational process.
As far as kids having some say, I agree, in general. My son is seventeen, and about to start his senior year. I was asking him how well he thought his school does - you know the kinds of questions a pesky, nosy, teacher-mom might ask, lol. He said it was ok, but he really didn’t care about what they were trying to teach him. He enjoys history, but that’s about it. He’s had teachers he liked for subjects he didn’t, and while the class might have been more enjoyable, it was still a waste of time, in his opinion.
Now, I know he’s young, and like most kids his age, he can’t see the entire big picture yet. However, I remember feeling the same way, and I look back and in a lot of ways, I was right. I was always an avid reader and an auto-didact, so school sometimes kept me back. I know for many homeschooling kids (successful ones, anyway) part of the success is that they can progress at their own pace and often delve much deeper in a subject that interests them. One of the best things about college was the increased ability to choose.
My only hesitation is with the extemely low poverty kids - the kids that are borderline feral who have no structure or discipline to speak of…they would need to be taught what appropriate choices were, before they could even be offered a choice.
By jim d
July 10, 2008 11:32 AM | Link to this
Mornin luv,
Yeah i read that report a year or two ago. the one I linked, I believe, is a bit more current.
I’m a bit fascinated by how the liberty to make a choice affects how well students may perform. If improving education is that simple—why the hell don’t we offer more of it?
By TheBlogger
July 10, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this
jimd - You speak as though u have never taught in a classroom before, have never dealt with issues in a classroom, nor have ever worked with parents of a child in your classroom. How close am I to being correct?
By jim d
July 10, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this
Yo blogger,
It’s no secret, most here know I’m not a professional teacher. That I don’t teach in a classroom but that I too have to deal with parents of the children I do work with. And yes at times i deal with kids that don’t want to be there.
On the other hand you sound like a teacher with attitude, who has never been wrong in the classroom or about anything related to education. How close am I to being correct?
By TheBlogger
July 10, 2008 10:52 PM | Link to this
Yo jim d- Far, far away.
By jim d
July 11, 2008 6:49 AM | Link to this
Yo Blog,
Glad to hear it. That means there is hope. :-)