Get Schooled

By WFC

June 30, 2008 8:32 AM | Link to this

We must face the fact that some children NEED to drop out. They simply need something useful to drop out to. Not everyone is suited to college. Waste of resources to push them in that direction.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this

Local school leaders were not correct in promoting so many that failed anyway, and the state needs to either enforce or scrap the law.

Like many others, I shudder at the thought of a middle schooler with his driver’s license. However, as things stand right now, the test is a joke, a multi-million dollar joke that stresses out teachers, parents, and students - and none of us find the joke particularly funny.

Problems I see first hand include:

It’s a sham, and I think the state needs to either S-can it, or fix it, but certainly not spend another penny on it - it cost my county over 2 million dollars for summer school - the state gave us less than half a million - most of the kids who failed in my school weren’t even in my school as 7th graders and most came into my school in the middle of 8th grade! Yet my tax dollars are paying for this? Argh.

What I would like to see:

We keep passing these kids on and they keep falling further behind - they know how to play the system - they know that placed or promoted doesn’t matter - they’ll still be in the next grade! If we place a kid, and then don’t do anything different, the kid thinks their bad habits are OK, the parent thinks s/he’s doing all right, and the teacher is stuck with a kid below grade level with bad habits.

By Momof3

June 30, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this

In a word, YES. Perhaps getting rid of social promotion will eliminate the number of 9th and 10th graders I teach who read and write on a 2nd grade level.

By Jeff

June 30, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this

L2T seems to be on target to me.

By Rod

June 30, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

A one-and-done test is a bit harsh. However, if the child cannot pass the basic items, they need to repeat. I think a two-and-done would be better. Go ahead and have a second test ready 30 days after the first - for those who fail.

If the child can’t get it right after two attempts, then they should repeat.

All these kids that are moving ahead anyway - isn’t that a violation of the State Board? Shouldn’t the counties be reviewed and be in jeopardy of losing accredidation?

By T

June 30, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

luvs2teach

What else can be said?

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

Rod, you’re right, and I should’ve clarified that, in my plan, what happens is determined after the retest - however, if you look at the numbers, the retests aren’t that hot.

If a kid missed by “just one question” (which is still passing just about 50% of the test, but hey, who’s counting), they will usually get what they need from summer school and pass the retest. However, there are kids that scored in the mid-700s (scaled score) - while writing personalized education plans I saw breakdowns of the sections of the test, and these kids missed something like 13 out of 16 in alegebra concepts - 7 out of 10 in basic number skills! Three weeks isn’t going to remediate that - and a personalized education plan isn’t going to help either!

By Bill

June 30, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

Oh, you mean that students don’t perform well enough and they have to repeat the grade? Oh the INHUMANITY! Remember when if you didn’t pass a test, you got an F?? The NERVE OF SOME PEOPLE! It’s about time we stiffened up and stop promoting people because “it might hurt their self esteem”. It’s a form of Darwinism and it’s what keeps the best specimens going. Not everyone will go to Harvard. Not everyone will go to college. Some people have a hard time with High School, but it doesn’t mean you go ahead and pass them even though they didn’t do the required work. Stop being such a politically correct, whiny and pansy nation. This is directly responsible for the condition our kids are in today. Most have no conception of hard work, sacrifice, self discipline or applying yourself, ven though it’s not as fun as hanging out on the corner or web surfing. Today is all about class warfare. The doers succeed because they did what was necessary TO succeed. The other (liberals) cry foul because someone has made a nice situation for themselves because of the sacrifices they made early in life. They wait to be “socially promoted” or for Uncle Sam to give them a check while they continue to make the same choices that got them in their plight. It all starts early in life and you establish good habits, character, manners and putting first things first. My neighbor’s daughter failed an online, summer school class because she didn’t want to miss a Florida trip with her friend’s family. Oh GEE, you reckon why she got an F??????

By TJW

June 30, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

Yes, holding these children back may be bad for them socially, SO FREAKING WHAT? Passing them does much more damage academically, and lets face it, thats SUPPOSED to be why they’re in school. If the child can’t do the work required for their current grade, what chance will they possibly have in the next grade? As for the 16 yr old Middle Schooler problem, no problem, if they fail more then twice, then they need to be assessed. If its an Intelligence problem, that can be addressed. If its a lack of parental support, tie all government assistance to the child’s grade, no pass, no check… If its a lack of motivation, then I’m sure we can find something more constructive for these kids to do… maybe a year sewing soccer balls will encourage them to try harder. Any way you shake it, the focus of schools need to be brought back to EDUCATION, not glorified BABY-SITTING

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

“algebra” - I know how to spell it, just not type it, lol.

By Sara

June 30, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

About 5 years ago I was a math tutor at a private college here in GA. I was AMAZED at the number of students who could not perform even simple multiplication or long division (and don’t get me started on adding and subtracting with negatives) unless they had a calculator (which the professors did not allow on tests). All I kept thinking to myself was “How in the world did these kids get out of eighth grade, much less graduate from high school?”

Maybe if enough kids get “embarrassed” with the “stupid label,” they - and their parents - will actually start taking their education seriously. There is NO excuse for allowing our children to grow up uneducated and ignorant.

What happened to the days of vocational schools? The time has come to start segregating students by abilities/aptitudes, desire to learn, and future goal plans. Create magnet systems - but make them work by evaluating students and placing them where they are most suited.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 9:28 AM | Link to this

TJW - I’m not so worried about the 16 year old middle schoolers feelings - I’m worried about the 12 year old sitting next to them - that’s the scary part, for me.

By Road Scholar

June 30, 2008 9:32 AM | Link to this

L2T: You seem to be on top of it. They need to be taught to learn, not taught to pass a test! If the teachers of some of the non-performers can’t realize that a child is not doing well, and she can’t provide extra tutoring, then a mentor needs to be assigned if the parents aren’t able. This could be another older student or parent. The community is responsible, not just the teacher!

Also, the ramifications of not passing should be continuely explained, and not in a threatening way. The expected standard should be clearly defined and nothing less acceptible.Posters and verbal reminders should reinforce the need to put the effort into their learning.

By Jeff

June 30, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

Ummm… I looked at the data for my system, considered nearly universally to be one of (if not THE) the best in SWGA….

At the MS level, we had at LEAST 25% of our kids fail Math.

But if you look at the overall system data, you will see smaller numbers that grow with each passing year, starting in first grade.

Doesn’t this indicate a CLEAR pattern??

If a child does not learn the basics, he WILL be LOST when it comes time to USE these basics.

In math, we see this as we begin to move from basic computation into more algebraic concepts. (Even to the level of: 10/blank = 2, what number goes in the blank? There are two ways to solve this particular question. If you KNOW YOUR MULTIPLICATION FACTS, it takes about a split second, plus slightly longer to actually write the answer down. Otherwise, you can always go the more pure-algebra route and solve the equation. This takes probably a minute or two - even for someone at my level, though granted it is ALL writing it down.

Problem: You’ve got 55 minutes for 60 questions.

Perfectly acceptable in my book, since to me these facts should be memorized and be at the top of your head at any given moment, particuarly while in K12.

But if they’re NOT and you’re taking this test… there’s a decent liklihood you are not going to fare so well…

By shadow7071

June 30, 2008 9:47 AM | Link to this

In May we learned that a significant number of students failed the CRCT. Then we learned that the test and the curriculum were not in sync so that what was being taught was not what was on the test. From this we learned that our children are being taught to take and pass a test. Then we learned that our children would need to go to summer school so that they could learn how to pass the test. Last week we learned that one county has a team of truant officers out looking for children who are supposed to be in summer school. And, then over the weekend, we learn that some children who failed the CRCT (and were supposed to go to summer school) were actually passed on the next grade.

This is to all of you on this blog who are teachers/educators… what are we (parents and tax payers) to make of all of this?

Sincerely, what are we to make of this continuing soap opera that we call CRCT? Are you really this screwed up? Is this DOE really this screwed up?

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 10:21 AM | Link to this

shadow7071 - I’m a parent, taxpayer, AND a teacher (I teach in my home’s district, no less - nothing like putting my money where my mouth is).

Anyway - read above to see what I think some of the problems are - and there are more: I didn’t even mention giving the test with six weeks left to the school year - meaning 6 weeks worth of material not covered by test time.

As far as the 6th and 7th grade SS test goes, I can’t say much - I’m an 8th grade science teacher. I can say that the kids told me the science test was fair, and covered the majority of what I covered in class. However, many of them complained that the questions were really wordy and that they had to read them carefully and/or more than once to understand what they were asking. This makes me wonder, are we testing them on their science knowledge or on their reading comprehension?

I have no problem with the county paying money for the social workers - BUT…where were they during the school year? I can guarantee that a lot of those kids were probably absent a great deal (can’t learn if you’re not there). A lot of those kids probably weren’t our mythical A/B student who failed, either - they were likely kids for whom teachers had no way on contacting parents, though - bad mailing addresses and out-of-service phone numbers (you’d be surprised at how high a number that is). The social workers also could’ve made sure these kids attended the remediation classes during the school year instead of summer school. The fact that a county had to go to those extremes for any kid should tell you that not all the problem lies with the teachers or the tests.

As far as kids being passed on anyway - that’s been a regular complaint on this blog for several years now - I’ve mentioned it (as a middle school teacher) as well as other regulars like catlady, who teaches elementary. That’s no secret to us - however people are definitely confused about the kind of power teachers have in making the decision to retain: little to none, really.

Theoretically, if you’re teaching the standards, you’re teaching the test, because the test is supposed to be on the standards! However, in some cases we’re not teaching the standards - why? because the kids have modifications because they can’t meet the standards (messed up, I know). In some cases the test is testing reading comprehension, and not the standard - even in math! Did you know most ESOL kids have to take math - even if their English isn’t sufficient to take the rest of the test. Great, right, because numbers aren’t in English - however, this forgets that there is a huge push for word problems which are. I can pretty much be assured that part of our %40 failure rate includes some of those kids.

So in answer to your question “are you really this screwed up” - no, I’m not. My school isn’t either. However, we are playing high-stakes hold’em poker with an off-suit 2 & 3 in our hand - the flop and turn aren’t helping us, either. We’re waiting for the river - the DOE is the house, and you know what happens when you’re betting against the house, right?

By linda

June 30, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

Yes, the DOE and education really are this screwed up. This is one we can’t blame on the parents! In fact, it is incredibly unfair to parents to lead them to think their children are doing fine. If the parents were more aware of a child’s weak areas, many would choose to supplement and enrich at home. Difficult to know how to help when your child makes all A’s and teacher says they are fine. Compared to what! Parents should be outraged over this misinformation. DOE and A-giving school staff: can you understand how this is NOT HELPFUL! Getting rid of report cards and giving parents scores on worthwhile mini-assessments would be far more valuable than giving everyone and A or B. In fact, parents, if your child gets a B it is likely a sign of big trouble and nothing to be proud of these days at all!

By MyOpinion

June 30, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

I agree with the majority stating that more students should be held back if they do not meet requirements of State exams, but at the same time I feel that students should not have to take them. Lets look at the traditional academic calendar, if the traditional academic calendar is from August to May/June, why are students being tested in March. By traditional standards, you are telling me that it is going to take from August to May/June for students to learn the subjects needed in order to pass the test, yet two months or more is cut off from students learning time in order to take a test to see what they have learned up until what is suppose to be the end of the school year. Why not test the students in May, have results back by June, and for those who failed, retest in July.

Students who are graduating now have spent so much of being tested on what they should have learned, when do they have time to learn. In the past it was teachers and local school administrator who determined based upon their work and academic achievement if a student should be promoted to the next grade, in the present it is a not so standardized test.

By Tyra Madden

June 30, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

I must say education is one of the greats tools that was given to man to be able to learn. The Bible says my people perish becasue of the lack of knowledge.

It hurts my heart when I hear comments as the one stated “that we must face it some kids need to drop out” when comments like this are made you are speaking discouragement to children and you set them up for failure. Yes, childrens first teachers are their parents, it should be instilled at home; however, the educational system needs to step up to the plate as well. Children come to school to learn not to be put down. Let’s help prepare children for school and keep them excited about school not turn them away from school.

Yes, I would agree that children should not be promoted to the next grade if they have not learned and know the subject matter presented to them. Let parents and teachers have an active roll in educating our children. Yes, I say our because they are our children the old saying is it takes a village to raise a child.

Let us help all children to meet the potential in their life and be able to go on to college, if they are only C students we still need to help them to reach that level. However, we should all attempt to help all children become what God has said they are, wonderfull and fearfully made, more than conqueors, above and not beneath.

Good, better, best never, never rest until the good gets better and the better gets best.

I pray for all teachers that they will teach with a heart’s desire that children learn and they will not give up on children and they are fullfulling what God has told them to do.

By C.

June 30, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

I am currently trying to make a decision as to whether to hold back my son in the 2nd grade. He has been diagnosed on the autisic spectrum - very high functioning, more asperger. His performance is uneven - reading level is 2.6, comprehension is 2.0. Math is uneven as well, i.e., knows addition facts by heart, but needs a visual aid (number line) for subtraction, has mastered counting money skills, but struggles w/ word problems. He scored on average 10-15 points below the minimum 800 needed to pass the CRCT, but has a hard time, despite modifications staying on focus w/ pencil and paper tests - does better w/ computer practice - masters between 80-100% on computer; loves the computer. According to testing, he has he has an average IQ but has issues w/ language processing. Luckily, he had a great reg. ed teacher and a great resource teacher teacher who used lots of methods of teaching. Son received excellent report cards all year - equilavent to A/B grades. I’m having a hard time figuring out what would be best. I’m not getting much help from school admin.or upon conducting my own research. His principal is not so convinced that holding back would be a good thing, but 2nd grade teacher would love to have him again and believes she can get him on level. My research has found that most educational psychologists are against retention especially for children w/ learning disabilities believing that retention wouldn’t help b/c they process differently regardless. Also son is very aware that he is “supposed” to be going to 3rd grade. Sorry so long, but any input from a teacher would be great!

By Jeff

June 30, 2008 10:45 AM | Link to this

C:

Hold him back. Better for him to get the foundation he needs than try to ‘build a house on sand’.

He won’t like it right now, but 20 years from now he’ll think about this again and realize you did the right thing.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Linda - my school went out of our way to try to inform parents of their kids’ weaknesses - mostly it fell on deaf ears (or was sent o bad addies and out-of-service phone numbers).

These mythical A students - anyone look at an ITBS score for them? The majority of kids who failed the CRCT scored below average on the ITBS - their parents were told this ahead of time.

These mythical A students - anyone get a syllabus to see where the grade was coming from? I can tell you, if test scores were any less than 40% and homework any less than 20%, you’re looking at trouble.

These mythical A students - are they ESOL, special ed, or have any other kind of curriculum modification noted on their report card? That is a warning sign (nothing against ESOL or SPED, but their curriculum is modified for a reason - and they can get As and Bs and still fail a standardized test - because their curriculum is not standardized).

These mythical A students - are they really doing their own work? Do they ever crack a book at home? Or are they copying off a real A student (happens FAR more than you would believe - trust me - and the kid letting his/her friend copy thinks they’re “helping”). Do they have As because they’re allowed to take tests over and over again and allowed to pass in work whenever so they don’t get zeros? Do their teachers give zeros or do they raise grades below to a 50 (a not-uncommon policy in many schools)? Do they get As from extra credit activities like bringing in tissues?

These mythical A students - did they move mid-year and have generous teachers give their grade a good-bye boost?

I’m not trying to blame parents, but I am trying to point out where parents need to step up and inform themselves of grading policies that can give a false sense of security as well as warning signs they need to look for. These are the questions you need to be asking your principals and your teachers when school goes back in the fall (or late summer, lol).

As far as these mythical A students go - I can tell you, not one of the 100+ students that failed at my school was a straight-out A/B student. There were a couple with those grades - and every one of them was SPED or ESOL. Everyone else was either transient to our school, coming in mid-year, or had been struggling all year long (often having been placed, rahter than promoted from 7th grade). A lot of them were homework copiers, too.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

C. - I’m a middle school teacher, not elementary, so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt.

I would keep him in second grade, but mainly because he has an excellent teacher who knows him and is willing to work with him. The focus on reading and independent work in third grade will be tough - also the reading test counts for summer school (if not retention) at the end of 3rd.

What I would suggest though, is to see if he can go into a third grade class for part of the day (maybe science and social studies). He should have an IEP - maybe that can be written in as part of it. I would also encourage you to use computer-based study skills programs, especially if he likes tham and does well with them. Good luck - that’s a tough decision.

By MyOpinion

June 30, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

Linda, I agree with your thought that teachers should be able to tell parents if their children need help in one particular area even if they are doing well in the class overall. However it is still up to parents to help their children by learning their child’s weaknesses. I found a website that gave an online assessment and which let children take the exam (about 10 questions, did it for grade 1 in math) and give results describing which area the question came from such as problem solving, computation, patterns, and telling if the answer was right or wrong. Parents have to do some research themselves if you really want to help your child. Once you find his or her weakness, you then approach teachers and ask for material that can help your child improve on this weakness. If your child has a good teacher, he/she will tell you that they have been working with your child all along on their weakness. If they are a decent teacher they will apologize for not finding your child weakness sooner and give you the information needed to help improve your child’s weakness. If they are a bad teacher they will not care about your child weakness. If this is the case, you now know that it is up to you to properly teach your child the basic skills needed for the test, but more importantly to have a truly successful academic career.

The website I visited is listed below.

https://www.georgiaoas.org/servlet/a2l

By jolie

June 30, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

I am an eighth grader who has been taking CRCT’s all my life. I agree with everything that L2T said. Believe me, these tests are anything but hard - they’re extraordinarily simple, and the kids who can’t pass them haven’t learned the basics skills taught in earlier grades. These kids need more than just summer school - they need to repeat the grades where the skills were introduced, even if this means sending a fourth grader back to the first grade. I was appalled when I read the article in the AJC on Sunday – “State law allows for a parent, teacher and principal to promote a student who fails a retest?” Of course, this makes the school look better if they have a high promotion rate, even if it is false. But I would think a parent would want the very best life for their child – one the kid can’t and won’t get if they don’t know how to add or read.

By simon

June 30, 2008 11:00 AM | Link to this

Unless schools actually provide appropriate support for those who are held back, making them go through another year of the same failed teaching by the same incompetent teachers would not do any good.

I think too many teachers are concerned about somehow making their jobs easier by getting rid of difficult ones. I suppose for them the best classroom is a (small) bunch of kids who already know everything they are supposed to teach…

By Gwinnett Educator

June 30, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

I do not agree with social promotion but the concern that I have for allowing students to be retained is…the SWELLING. I checked the stats from my former Dekalb county school and it showed what I knew to be happening all along.

When I was at that school teaching 2nd grade, we were “told” to go ahead and pass the ones that needed to be retained…the CRCT would catch them next yr. (rolls eyes) Ok, they didnt stay behind in 3rd grade and went on to the 4th, etc.

In regards to the swelling, if those students didnt move on, 5th grade would stand still, 4th grade would stand still, 3rd would do the same and the lower grades would swell …due to the number of children coming in. We know that not all the students would fail, but the close to half would. I came from a very LOW performing school.

Its a scary and sad state. By the way, I absolutely LOVED luvs2teach’s plan.

By shadow7071

June 30, 2008 11:08 AM | Link to this

Luvs2teach, thank you for your reply.

First, when I asked are “you” screwed up I didn’t mean to imply “you” but the “system”.

After reading your comments this morning one word comes to mind - “convoluted”.

I think that in trying to develop a sophisticated educational system that tries to cater to everyone’s personal needs, and at the same time tries to ensure that everyone is a success, that we’ve created a convoluted mess. A mess that - know one really understands and that is completely unmanageable. And, because of the size and scope of this mess I’m not really sure that it can be brought back under control.

By TJW

June 30, 2008 11:14 AM | Link to this

Tyra@10:37: I don’t think that there is a single commentor here that would deny a child who wants to learn the opportunity. The problem is, there are a large number who don’t want to learn, and end up dragging the rest of the class down with them, sometimes intentionally. They also know that they can get away with it, that the teachers are near powerless, and that the administration is not going to do anything unless they kill someone. We need to stop playing by their rules and take the schools back for those who want to learn. No teacher or student should have to fear for their safety in a classroom. No child should have their learning disrupted just because someone else didn’t want to be there. This doesn’t mean those students need to drop out, but they need to be removed until they chose to return.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

shadow7071 - you are absolutely right - in trying to please everyone, we end up pleasing no one. I don’t want education to be one-size-fits-all, but we can’t tailor it to everyone and still be effective, either (and at some point personal responsiblity as a parent and as a student need to come into play - my daughter was in 9th grade when I started teaching, so I currently have more years as a parent than as a teacher - I know the things I did for my kids, to ensure they were where they needed to be - you can’t rely on the school to do it all for you).

I have mentioned before that this situation is way too complex for a simple fix. It’s not a case of tweaking one little thing and having everything else fall into place. The system needs tweaking; parents need information; teachers need a voice (or a backbone - take your pick) - and the Federal government needs to back off. I could go on (but I think I’ve done enough of that already today, lol).

I knew “you” didn’t mean “me,” per se - it was just a good place to start the post. HAGD :-)

Simon - clearly you’re under the deeply misguided assumption that teachers get to decide who stays back and who moves on…we don’t; it’s usually an administrative decision (and there’s nothing worse than having a kid in class who already knows what you’re teaching - they’re bored and they get in trouble). As far as teachers being incompetent - yes, there are some. However, if you that that teachers are the only thing wrong with the system and that’s why kids are failing, then you are sadly misinformed - you need to quit drinking the kool-aid.

By Math parent

June 30, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

As a parent of a middle school student (rising 9th grader), I think this is a tough issue although I lean towards retention. My child did great on the CRCT, but I have heard of others who struggled with the math and science this year. I also have talked to teachers who said the DOE did not provide enough training and resources to teachers and forced the new curriculum on schools without first pilot testing it.

From a parent’s perspective, the problem with passing on so many students who clearly do not have the fundamental skills, means that next years’ 9th grade teachers will have to water down the math curriculum even more. My child was already bored to tears with the repetition and slow pace of the new math. Remember that the DOE forced the new curriculum on counties without including an accelerated version.

Maybe it is time to take a breather from the new math curriculum and stop experiementing on this group of students.

By jim d

June 30, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

Get out the plunger and flush!

By gafarmer

June 30, 2008 12:00 PM | Link to this

L2T understands the problem and corrective needs, sounds like a love for children as well.

To a great extent it comes down to whether the child had a good beginning. My wife and I have 4 grandchildren. Two started school within thirty days of their birthday. Both repeated 5 k on the advice of a couple of really great kindergarten teachers. They were not mature enough for first grade even though they were in the top half of their classes from an academic perspective. They consistently score in the 90+ percentile in 5th and 6th grade standardized tests today and enjoy school. The other two do well but score in the 70th percentile generally.

We think some kids today are being forced into school(1st grade)before they are mature enough because it works better into mom and dad’s schedule.

By Mark

June 30, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

This is a black problem. With their rising numbers, it’s not surprising at the lack of motivation, and social behavior. It’s tough to teach a kid anything when all they want to be are thug rappers, and basketball players.

By C.

June 30, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

Jeff and Luvs2teach:

Thanks for your input. I am definately leaning toward holding him back. I would, however, push for him to have same reg. ed teacher as he had in 2nd since her methods have worked. Resource teacher would be same regardless of grade. Question: Have either of you or other posters have seen a definate academic jump w/ a student w/ special needs being held back at this age or did the student display the same weaknessess?

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

gafarmer - my brother was like your grandkids - his birthday is 2 days before the cut-off, and my mom put him in school anyway. He was small, too, which didn’t help much. He’s bright, and avid reader, but probably has an undiagnosed learning disability. He had a wonderful first grade teacher, who understood that he “marched to a beat of a different drummer” (in her words), but that was the peak for him - it only went downhill after that. He was picked on and bullied, and by 9th grade he had dropped out (happy ending though - he got his GED, went into the army, and has had a great career - now in his late thirties he’s doing ok).

I often wonder if things would’ve been different for him if my mom had kept him home a year - different story: my son missed the cut-off by 12 days - he really needed that extra year to be developmentally ready for school, and he has done well. He is one of the oldest in his class, big enough not to get picked on, mature enough to succeed.

I think holding onto arbitrary age restrictions hurts us. That is one area i would like to see more flexibility (and let’s face it - the younger they are, the more pronounced a difference 364 days can make).

BTW - I got some of the basis for my amazing idea from a private school that had a grade between K and 1st - I think it was called “readiness” - it was for those kids who needed a little more time to grow and develop. Some kids moved from readiness into 1st and others went straight to 2nd. I also read an article a few years back, when NCLB first started, about a school that had a grade 3.5 - it was in a another state though. Maybe someone from the state DOE will read this and put some things into motion - all I know is we’re currently beating the dead horse, and it still ain’t moving.

By Jerry

June 30, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

I teacn math at a community college and have had students that just graduated from high school that cannot add simple fractions. While performing research as a PhD student ih healthcare, one of the problems facing the industry is poor computational ability that permeates the entire industry, from doctors on down. Passing students just to keep from looking bad individually or collectively produces at best mediocrity. If you do know the minimum,, then you should not pass-end of story.

By Jeff

June 30, 2008 12:35 PM | Link to this

C:

I have direct personal experience with Asperger’s - youngest bro was diagnosed, I had it but was undiagnosed (no one had really heard of it when I was his age, even though there is only a 7 yr differential between us).

More than likely what is going on is a simple disconnect. Problem is, with the screwy wiring we get with AS, a ‘simple disconnect’ can be a HUGE issue.

Whether or not you actually see a ‘jump’ is irrelevant. What is important is that he is SOLID in what is expected of him in 2nd grade before he goes into 3rd. As others have noted, the shift between these two grades is pretty immense. Before 3rd grade, the emphasis is on LEARNING the basics. Addition, subtraction, letters, phonics, etc. Starting with third grade, the emphasis shifts to USING those basics to learn higher concepts.

And unfortunately, we aren’t talking Calculus here. (My own ‘simple disconnect’ in Math is in the area of Calculus, specifically a fairly basic concept called limits. I never really understood them, and therefore I had an EXTREMELY difficult time with subsequent topics that USE that idea. Fortunately, I was an adult at the time and had learned to overcome my issues with AS and could figure out a way around it, at least enough to get by with a C in every Calc class I took - and I took 3 of them!)

Again: He needs a SOLID foundation in what is required of him in second grade before he moves on to third. Otherwise, you are putting him in a situation of having to USE knowledge he doesn’t yet have to learn more advanced topics. Which is going to hurt him on those advanced topics, and he will have difficulties on THAT CRCT, and you’ll be back in the same boat. Better to cut the cycle before it starts, at least as much as is possible.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

C. - I have seen some kids overcome their weaknesses and do well - better than some general ed kids, as a matter of fact. Things they had in common were supportive and informed parents, and parents and teachers who took their weaknesses into account without using them as an excuse and taught them to work with their weakness - tough to do, but it works, and it sounds like you’re well on your way. Read everything you can - every test result sent home - take up every opportunity for remediation - use the computer and everything else that works for him.

I’m not an advocate for medicating kids unless there is a definite medical reason (and never simply for “behavior” issues). However, when kids have been properly medicated, I have seen huge jumps in achievement. I don’t know if this is something you’re thinking about, or if it’s even something that you or your doctor think will help, but if medication is part of the equation, I do think that will make a difference. There are also some great books on coping without medication. Driven to Distraction is a good book about ADD/ADHD (not exactly the same, I know) that has some good guidelines on providing structure and coping as a support person.

By Chris B

June 30, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

Im a teacher in the Metro Atlanta area. Retaining students work in some cases but not in most. Education is just not a priority in some households for various reasons. It does not matter if they took Geometry for 3 years if that student does not see the value of his education it is all for not. This is a complete reversal of opinion for me. Once you get on the front line of education, you see things in a different light.

By Joshua Barlowe

June 30, 2008 1:12 PM | Link to this

Hey I know - why don’t we just give the teachers raises?!?!

That will solve everything!

So glad my child isn’t government schooled - and so mad that I still have to pay for this joke they call education.

By angela

June 30, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

My daughter had A’s and B’s all year, and missed the mark for the CRCT in math by a few points. I don’t think its right to put so much emphasis on the one test, especially since it is not tied to performance during the year. Some children are not as good in test situations as others are, and there is so much pressure surrounding the test that they get even more nervous than if it was a weekly pop quiz.

Secondly, the article said many that failed the first time were not retained. This is likely because they took the summer school course and re-took the test, passing on the second try. Of course you wouldnt hold them back if they passed the test.

By Matt

June 30, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

My school never retains students it seems like. I’ve argued to I’m blue in the face. “We can’t have 16 years old students in the same building with 11 and 12 year olds”. We are just passing along the problems so it is not longer ours. What penalty does administrators have for retaining those who should be?

By thomas

June 30, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

You middle and high school people talk a big game. “If they can’t pass the test, then don’t promote ‘em!!!!”

You talk this bull because you like to blame elementary schools for all your problems. But if I remember correctly, the passing rates at the elementary schools are much higher than at the middle and high schools AND all the schools that can’t seem to ever make AYP or stay off the Needs Improvement List are at the middle and high level.

Perhaps it’s poor teaching in middle school that’s the problem and not the kids. For some strange reason, the kids are relatively successful in 5th grade, then crash and burn when they get to the vultures at middle school.

By tonyac

June 30, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

L2T:

My son has ADHD. We put him on meds going into his 2nd grade year. We finally found a medication combo that worked and he is doing SOOOOOOO much better. A large part of that was the fantastic teacher he had this year in 3rd grade and her ability to communicate the behavior issues that were appearing. She also realized his intelligence and held his butt to the fire, never allowing his disability to be an excuse.

C: My BFF held her son back this past school year. He was in the 7th grade. Despite the school saying he didn’t need it, she knew he had some maturing to do and made the executive decision. He has made a great turnaround both academically and maturity-wise and she has confirmed this was the best choice for him.

By ChrisB

June 30, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

School Systems across the country are being blamed for problems they cannot control. The school system is the symptom (cough, runny nose) but society is the virus. You have students raising themselves, students living in shelters, students who parents cook crack in front of them, parents who cannot control their kids. The school system is asked to take on the social ills of the world and teach at the same time. Blame the school system all you want, its only the symptom not the disease.

By Bob

June 30, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

It really doesn’t matter if we voice the “right” answer.

Nothing will be done by the higher ups at Dept of ED so what’s the point?

We must all face that people will get a free ride on to older grade levels and then drop out or see the light and dig in.

By Gwinnett Educator

June 30, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

angela-The links provided more data on the number of those that failed/passed on the 2nd try.

Of course schools vary, but for example..my current school had 75 students to fail the first time and then 65 failed the 2nd try (5th grade). Only 10 passed! I cant remember the exact number at the moment, but only 10 or 12 were actually retained.

By Chris B

June 30, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

Come on Thomas bad teaching in middle and high school. Why as teachers are we blaming each other. We all are failing: parents, teachers, and students.In my experience it seems like everyone is just going through the motion like an assembly line. Until their is true accountabiliy on everyone’s part then nothing wil change.

By Dee

June 30, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

LVS2teach, I think that was the name. You made some very valid points in the portions that I have read but honestly I do not know if moving the CRCT test to the second instead of the third grade would be the best move either. I do agree though that something must be done. I have taught pre k, second, and now first. Second grade is reading to learn and comprehend but things have shifted especially because this past year first grade teachers or special education teachers could not read to the students so we had to not only teach them to read but also teach them how to comprehend (understand) what they have read. I am a firm believer that students tend to suffer especially if they did not receive the foundations of reading and math in kindergarten and then totally could not catch up in first grade. Second grade will swallow children because they are learning to read fluently so but third grade—yikes. I think one thing that has to happen if to place some of the responsiblity BACK on the parents by doing that they will understand that they should play a bigger part of their childs education than they do.

What happened to the days of parents who were not afforded the opportunities as children have today wanting more for their children than they had? Sadly it seems that a huge part of the problem is that some parents are just simply going through the motions and sending their children to school because the law says but when they become a certain age… Honestly, there are so many issues in education but not just with the schools and department of education but with the PARENTS themselves. Parents must understand that they are their childs first teacher. Stop waiting on the schools and teachers to educate their children soley. We are partners and together we will make the difference. This is part of a logo that I have created for EVERY letter that I send to parents. I have been blessed to have parental involvement but not all involvement come easy. I still struggle and stay behind parents from the beginning to help them understand what is required of their child and what has to be done to make sure that they do not become frustrated with school. I love to teach and I love to see the results of the progress students have made. I believe in every student and I want every student to succeed. The bottom line is that if they do not and we keep going downward as things are then look at the quality of children that will run our country one day.

The belief that all children are not going succeed and accepting that is totally unacceptable to me and we need to change our mentality or this country will be in worse shape than it already is. We have to come together no matter if we are talking about educating children in public or private school.

By simon

June 30, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach,

I clearly understand teachers don’t get to decide who should be retained - this blog is filled with teachers complaining about students not being retained. They seem to complain because those students make their job more difficult - they don’t want those students in their classes.

IF we are going to retain students, then we (schools, individual teachers, society,…) have a moral obligation to provide those students the support they need. If we can’t do so, then making them go through the same old stuff that didn’t help them in the first place is nothing more than cruel and unusual punishment - specially since we are making them repeat the whole grade level for failing one or two subjects, as important as they may be.

By robo

June 30, 2008 1:58 PM | Link to this

L2T wrote: “My son has ADHD. We put him on meds going into his 2nd grade year. We finally found a medication combo that worked and he is doing SOOOOOOO much better”

ADHD and ADD does not even exist, except in the pocketbooks of medical professionals and drug companies. Where were these kids when I was growing up? Oh yeah, those were the ones that their dad “cured” behind the woodshed. Unacceptable behaviour has become a treatable “illness” for the weak, feeble minded. These dim bulbs buy the latest trendy mental disease and treatment without even asking questions or looking at their own lack of parenting method. It’s easier that way, no responsibility, junior is sick, and I can still look like a parent.

Plus, I really feel sorry for your “medicated” 2nd grader. Sure he is “better”, more controllable, you know, zombie like. Sadly, that is better for you.

By robo

June 30, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

“My son has ADHD. We put him on meds going into his 2nd grade year. We finally found a medication combo that worked and he is doing SOOOOOOO much better”

Sorry L2T, that was “tonyac” with the qualuude kid.

By EducatedMother

June 30, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

To Mark:

You are an idiot and a racist!!

By EducatedMother

June 30, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this

To Mark:

You are an idiot and a racist!!

By ChrisB

June 30, 2008 2:10 PM | Link to this

Robo have you ever taught a kid that would never sit in his seat and constantly moved around at the age of 14. Who is taller and bigger than you. This stuff is real. Autism wasnt really around 50 years ago either.

By ChrisB

June 30, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

my fault robo

By Mark

June 30, 2008 2:15 PM | Link to this

EducatedMother

And you are a blind fool.

By H from Marietta

June 30, 2008 2:31 PM | Link to this

Sometimes in life, we need ditch diggers, janitors and garbage pickup men…

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

simon - clearly you didn’t read my original post, where I outlined a proposed different path which included remediation in the classes they failed, rather than a wholesale retention. Your original post read as though teachers solely had the power - they don’t. Playing devil’s advocate here - do you want a kid below grade level sitting in class next to your child? Causing problems becuase for kids it’s often better to be “bad” than “dumb”? Asking questions that your child already knows the answer to? Slowing your child down? This isn’t a probelm just for teachers - this is a problem for everyone. Having a child reading at the 3rd grade level doesn’t make my job as an 8th grade science teacher merely more difficult - it makes it close to impossible. I’m very hands-on, but if the kid can’t decipher a question on the test, they’re still going to fail.

robo - you’re confused - my son is 17 and does not have ADD or ADHD. Reread the post. And whether you “believe” the syndrome exists or not is irrelevant - another poster found something that worked for her kid. Working in your child’s best interest - that’s your job.

Which brings me to Joshua Barlowe - I’m glad you’ve done what ever works for you and your child. Unfortunately you still have to pay taxes - suck it up, so do the rest of us - and we all pay for services we’ll never use as well - write your congressman. BTW - whenever someone refers to “government schools” I know I may as well be talking to a wall - it’s a mindset that won’t change. But, I’ve travelled to other countries and visited real “government” schools - vastly different. What is a major part of the problem is that the federal government through NCLB and the state DOE are getting involved in what should be local community school decisions. I will take the raisem, though - thanks.

thomas - based on other posts of yours, I’m totally surprised that you are saying anything nice about elementary schools - and I’m not really sure where you read the wholesale “keep them back” comments from any of us upper level teachers. I proposed something that included both remediation as well ad retention, when needed - nothing wholesale or hardcore, but common sense on a case-by-case basis.

Your complaint makes no sense as far as high school goes - if they fail a class, they not only lose out on the credits, but if it’s a required class they have to take it again. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

As far as middle school goes, I’ll take the bait - I already think the middle school concept is a bad idea - 6th grade should be back in elementary. It chaps my hide that I get 8th graders who failed science as a 7th grader, and yet I’m supposed to work miracles? Even worse are the 8th graders that failed math and language arts and still get promoted (!!!) to the 8th grade, because you can fail two classes and still be promoted - amazing! Those are sytem-wide policies, BTW, not a teacher decision, and I’m all for changing those. Not to mention, middle school is typically where parent involvement drops significantly - I would love to fix that as well.

I looked at my feeder elementary numbers to see how many they passed on. That total was greater than the number of 8th graders that failed - yet those little darlings will be mine in a couple years (unless they move out of district - a likely possibility given my school’s transiency). So thomas can’t we all just get along?

Finally, Dee - thank you for your insight - I don’t teach elementary, just had kids who went through it (both prior to 2001), and I recall their teachers saying the big shift happened between 2nd and 3rd. I can see it moving lower though, as kindergarten is more like first, first is more like second, etc. I think it’s child abuse to not read the test to a 1st grader - many studies have shown that all the brain components aren’t often primed for reading until age 7.

By H from Marietta

June 30, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

Sometimes in life, we need ditch diggers, janitors and garbage pickup men…

By tonyac

June 30, 2008 2:33 PM | Link to this

ROBO:

Really? I am a advocate of corporal punishment. Use it on a regular basis. ADHD may not be real to you, but when even a good butt-whooping won’t calm you down, there has to be more to it. My son is a BETTER person on the meds and even HE says it. In fact, I offered him the opportunity to go off at any time and he realizes that the consequences would be unacceptable.

Zombie like??? You idiot, I would hardly call my son zombie-like. He still talks up a storm and runs like the wind. The only noticable difference is his attention span and better behavior. Personality-wise he is still the same kid.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

simon another thought - I’ll take those kids that failed on one condition - I want JUST those kids in my class. You see, it’s not about making our jobs easier - it’s about being able to teach those kids effectively - and it’s not effective (no matter what the differentiation gurus want you to believe) to have a gifted kid sitting next to someone who was placed in the 8th grade reading on a third grade level. How is that good for either of them?

By tonyac

June 30, 2008 2:57 PM | Link to this

luvs2teach:

Jesus take the wheel you have hit the nail on the head. I can’t disagree with anything you’ve said. Unfortunately a plan as viable and intelligent as your will, without a doubt, fall on deaf ears.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this

tonyac - thanks - I’m a teacher - I’m used to the things I say failing on deaf ears, lol :-)

By jim d

June 30, 2008 3:10 PM | Link to this

L2T,

I think i luv ya!

you aren’t really an educator though are you? Can’t be. You make too much sense.

By jim d

June 30, 2008 3:14 PM | Link to this

L2T, State Superintendent of Schools!! What a sweet ring that has.

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

ha ha - jim d - thanks for the vote of confidence - I keep telling you guys that I’m not your ordinary educrat! And the way Kathy Cox is going, this could be my year :-)

By jim d

June 30, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

unfortunately she isn’t up for re-election till 010. Ironically the next chance we have to replace sonny boy. But hey, it’s never too early to start campaigning. :-)

By luvs2teach

June 30, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

jim d - The way this year is going I’m not sure she’ll make it to 2010! A girl can dream anyway…

By TheBlogger

June 30, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

OMG! It isn’t a matter of how many should repeat a grade. What a STUPID way to state the issue!!!!

It is a matter of repeating a grade of the student doesn’t know the content - yes, it is as simple as that! If that is 100% of the students, then so be it. If that is 0% of the students, then so be it.

To me, this is a clear-cut and simple issue. Why make it complicated?

By carrie

June 30, 2008 4:39 PM | Link to this

L2T - I love your plan. When I was in IN, many of the school systems had a year between K and 1st called “transition 1st”. Kindergarten teachers could recommend the students they thought weren’t quite ready for 1st, but didn’t need to review all of K. Then, the T-1 teachers could decide at the end of that year which kids were ready for 2nd and which needed regular 1st grade. T-1 reviewed some K concepts and taught 1st grade concepts just at a slower pace.

I’m all for retaining in the lower grades. Personally, I think that does a better job than retention in middle or high school. I’m amazed by the kids who are passed on. I had a little girl start in my room last fall who literally could not read anything other than her name. (I teach 2nd, BTW) She had moved to our school from somewhere else, so of course, I had no idea what I was getting. I’m still amazed that she was able to pass 1st grade. BTW, she moved in February, and my assistant principal called her school right away to let her know we were planning on retention. I wonder if she was actually retained.

By shadow7071

June 30, 2008 5:06 PM | Link to this

Quite frankly Cathy Cox has shown, and continues to show, lapses in both judgment and leadership. For the people of Georgia this is a serious situation that our school system is in.

Since the announcement of the CRCT results there has been article after article in the AJC, and other papers around the state, reporting every aspect of this fiasco. On this and other blogs people have commented on their dissatisfaction with the CRCT, the schools, the teachers, grades, the government and almost every element of the educational system.

Local teachers, such as Luv2teach, have stepped forward and offered their opinions on why the system is in the state that it is. They’ve offered suggestions on how to improve the system. They’ve tried to explain how things can be better.

But, have we heard from Cathy Cox? No! Accept to say that she and her brain trust made the test harder that the curriculum. That every child that failed would have to go to summer school. And have a nice vacation. And, oh by the way, I’m thinking about changing the calendar. This is all that we’ve got from this woman. Yet, throughout this great State people are debating and discussing this serious issue that she should be right in the middle of, but she’s not.

Ms. Cox is an elected official. She was not appointed by the Governor, and she does rule from the Divine Right of Kings. She was elected by people like you and I and we should hold her accountable for this CRCT fiasco.

By simon

June 30, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this

L2T:

Clearly I do not think all teachers are incompetent.

If there is an 8th graders in your class who are reading much below the grade-level (whatever that really means), and if that’s the reason they fail the CRCT, then such a test in not valid, is it? Why should such a test determine whether or not a student should repeat a grade? Moreover, at this point in time, it really doesn’t matter how your students do on the science CRCT - they are going to move up regardless. It’s only in math or reading that determines whether or not students should be held back.

Your idea isn’t a bad one, but we all know, unfortunately, isn’t going to happen. It will cost way too much. You have to hire teachers who will provide the special support for those who are held back. In addition, they will have to hire more teachers to teach subjects for which students are allowed to advance. It will probably create a huge administrative headache that only a few, if any, administrators are willing to take on.

It’s so unfortunate that the educational policy is made based on non-educational factors…

By catlady

June 30, 2008 6:12 PM | Link to this

Luvs, you’ve done an outstanding job today in laying it all out. Wish I had been home to be in on the discussion. I am glad the nonsense is all out in the open. You know I have been calling on the DOE through this blog to do the research and publish it for several years. So, why did the AJC have to do it? The DOE needs some major housecleaning done, IMHO. Not only is there the possible mismatch between expectations and the test in 8th grade, but also the DOE now admits it has never done the kind of basic validation of its own tests. That is, they cannot really give a valid answer educationally for why the cut scores are where they are. This is so far from being appropriate, it is funny in a sick, sad sort of way. Think of the millions of dollars that has gone into some pockets!

To the mother of the A.S. 2nd grader: Sounds like you have a gem of a teacher. Hold him back (and give him the gift of time.) She won’t stop with him with just 2nd grade stuff; if he is ready she will keep on teaching him (and you will, too). IN 34 YEARS I HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO HOLD BACK ABOUT 15-16 KIDS BUT I HAVE NEVER HAD A PARENT TELL ME LATER THAT THEY REGRETTED HOLDING THE KID BACK!!! I have, however, had a few parents who admitted that they should have listened to me. AND EVERY CHILD I HAVE SAID SHOULD BE RETAINED WHO WAS NOT RETAINED HAS DROPPED OUT. EVERY SINGLE ONE. (I live in a small community and can follow them as the years go by). Now, does that mean I have ESP? No, I am just an experienced teacher who can tell when a student is ready to go on, and when they are not. The CRCT is one small tool in the kit. (very small). It is a SYMPTOM of the problem, not the problem itself.

L2T, one thing I would like to correct @9:17: the cut score in the lower grades has been QUITE A BIT lower than 50% correct, at least in math. Like 37% correct.

Parents truly have no clue what is being “done” so that their child appears to be earning As and Bs. We have many kids at my school who have so many intervention classes, they don’t get science or social studies. Literally, after 2 hrs 40 minutes of reading (only reading, not language arts) and an hour and a half of math, they have EIP reading, EIP math, plus little intervention classes. They also have very small classes, modifications up the ying yang, and push in teachers to work with even smaller groups. One group I pushed in with (14 third graders who were 2 years behind) had 3 different push in teachers in different parts of the period in addition to their very experienced teacher. Then, they got intervention later in the day for 40 minutes for reading. Guess what—although they certainly made progress, most of them did not pass the CRCT (nor would they be expected to) and they will go on to 4th grade doing beginning third grade level reading. We have been told to “make” students successful ( while still teaching them the grade [not skill] appropriate GPS.) Your child can make an A in reading but if it is 1st grade level work and they are in the 3rd grade, do you think that A has much meaning? Your child can make a B in 5th grade social studies, but if it has been modified beyond recognition, do you think that B means anything?

Has anyone heard our legislators crying out today for there to be a massive shakeup at the state DOE? I had thought after the 8th grade SS debacle, something would be done. In Georgia, however, it seems to be business as usual. Don’t ask, don’t tell.

By TheBlogger

June 30, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

What a concept!?!?! Allow the teachers to decide who is really ready to be promoted to the next grade level!

This would only be successful in GA if the administrators (and politicans and parents) kept OUT of the decision making process and if the teachers were not penalized for holding back students.

Dare to dream.

By thomas

June 30, 2008 8:27 PM | Link to this

Catlady,

The situation you describe that occurred at your school happens at many schools across this state. I used to work at an elementary school that is on the NI list. There are only 35 elementary schools in the state of Georgia on the NI list. This school was one of them.

In this school, EVERY SINGLE, SOLITARY CLASS has 13-14 students, except for two. In the other two classes, there were two full time teachers, still about one teacher for every 12-13 kids. This is in all grade levels, kindergarten to fifth. This school was certainly not in the poorest neighborhood in the county, state, or metro area. But yet these people still couldn’t get it done. We still had 20-25% of our students fail the CRCT reading across the board, 35-45% fail the math portion, grades 3-5. This blows the small class sizes argument out of the water. When I was in the classroom teaching, I had 25-29 students every year and I was successful.

First of all, if teachers are bullcrapping in kindergarten and first grade (like they do in many schools that do not serve a largely middle class population), students fall behind and fail to acquire ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL KEY SKILLS- LIKE PHONEMIC AWARENESS, PHONICS, ACQUIRING BASIC ORAL AND READING VOCABULARY, BASIC MATH SKILLS, BASIC GRAMMAR AND WRITING TENETS, AND CRITICAL THINKING AND ANALYSIS.

To make a long story short, all the small class sizes, interventions, PROGRAM after PROGRAM after PROGRAM, extra “push-in” support teachers (SPED, EIP, ESOL, Direct Instruction, Title I, etc.), all the literacy, academic, math, science, and all the other coaches, all the “Lead Teachers” and every other “expert” doesn’t mean a d_mn thing to a bunch of third graders because these kids are already 1-2 grades levels behind and HAVEN’T THROWN IN THE TOWEL AND GIVEN UP ON SCHOOL. THIS IS A FACT. It doesn’t matter if these kids are black, white, brown, yellow, or orange. If you have kids who have experienced failure from kindergarten to third grade, they deep down have had any motivation they may have had crushed.

Another poster here made a comment that I am critical of elementary education. I am actually. I developed my opinion that our education fails so many children from seeing what is has done to so many children and reading the research and testimony of others in the field. I see people not really interested in teaching and cultivating young people. I see people who don’t really give a d_mn about trying to motivate and inspire any of their students. In fact some of these people actually try to put down their students.

The only place I really see where people are motivated about teaching and helping children in the upper middle class neighborhoods. Teachers there are motivated. Parents are motivated. The other school personnel are motivated. The school system works to make sure those students and their communities shine and grow.

Elsewhere, ESPECIALLY in black and brown communities, people in the schools use it a stepping stone (a place to get a paycheck and pad one’s resume for experience) or a hammock (usually reserved for the lousy and/or lazy teachers who couldn’t cut it or can’t get in a “good” school).

I am sick of it. I know exactly what Catlady is talking about. It happens all over the place. I actually tried to make a difference. But I have found that the deck is stacked for students of lower and working class families. It seems like people only want to work with middle class, white children that are ready made for “success”. But I am not worried about a middle class white man robbing me in a parking lot. It’s not going to be “Rebecca” in the nice, white school in the suburbs that going to be the problem for us in the future. It’s going to be “Dawan”, “Jose” and “Billy”— the black, Hispanic, and poor white kids we thumbed our noses at today that will be our burden tommorrow.

These kids we throw away today will come back to haunt us in the future. The thing that has made me the most angry is the arrogance I have encountered in my experience as educator. Arrogant people who want to blame the student for our failure to educate. We want to blame the third and fourth grader for not knowing how to decode or have a large vocabulary base, when we never taught them that. We wanted to sit on our ases all day, give seat work, scream at the kids, demand complete silence in the room, complain, btch, and moan.

And we wonder why all the microscopic class sizes, tons of instructional programs, books, technology, extra support personnel, tutoring, and everything else doesn’t seem to be making a difference with the masses of our students. Perhaps we need to go back to one of the basic tenets of teaching— one that is most prevalent in the middle class schools that are SO SUCCESSFUL (even with SPED and ESOL students)— “you can’t teach who you don’t care about.”

By robo

June 30, 2008 8:49 PM | Link to this

tonyac:

Let’s call it for what it is, shall we? You can’t handle your kid, so you medicate the spirit out of him instead of engaging his mind. I hardly believe you discipline, and corporal by itself, without equal positive influence, is abuse. I am sure more adventure and no drugging for the parents sake, would miraclously cure his phantom syndromes. I have seen it. I live it. You just need to really see through his eyes, the eyes of a child that needs guidance, boundaries, and something to do besides video games and crap pop culture. Who are his heroes? My guess is that his heroes aren’t you; his heroes are probably some pop culture nitwits or imbecile athletes.

Throw the medicine bottle away and play WITH your child, learn WITH your child, and he will develop.

Oh, and how long before the “professionals” graduate him to the next meds? Is it Paxil next or Prosac, maybe…in the 4th grade? Truly sad.

By rd

June 30, 2008 8:53 PM | Link to this

thomas- Wow, what a great post! Someone who finally says what I think almost every time I read this blog!

By thomas

June 30, 2008 8:55 PM | Link to this

To Catlady and I all the other posters here:

I understand your concern about passing kids on who may not have acquired the skills and knowledge necessary to past the CRCT. But I disagree wholeheartedly in retention for this reason: In my experience I have found that after working in four elementary in two counties, retention really didn’t help the kids. Why? Because they never really got the help they needed.

The kids were retained or put into SPED and NEVER got any help. They seldom got better and almost none ever reached grade level at elementary, middle, or high school. Our schools aren’t set up to help anybody. All they can do is label kids.

So who wants a musty, shaving fourth or fifth grader? Which one of you middle school people wants a 16 year old eighth grader driving to school? I don’t.

You see people, I, this year, have had to deal with (starting to get angry and turn off/out to school) little second graders acting out, getting disruptive, and making gang symbols at the drop of a hat. Second graders who spoke of violence and using guns. These were kids who couldn’t read or write. In the second grade. These are kids who have been passed on to third grade. Five years from now they will be spraying graffiti. Ten years from now, who knows…

Personally I don’t want to see these jokers bottled up in my school. Send ‘em on. Their own sorry teachers did nothing with them. And now you want me to support keeping them bottled up at the elementary school. I don’t think so.

(And by the way, “bottled up” is the right term, because nothing is/will be done with these kids anyway.)

By Lee

June 30, 2008 9:37 PM | Link to this

Lest ye forget:

The reason we are burdened with the CRCT fiasco is due to the fact that schools were passing students from grade to grade and graduating illiterates. From the posts on this blog, little has changed I see.

Are we really surprised that the same folks who fail to educate our children cannot administer a simple test to gauge student progress? I’m not.

Years ago, the federal governmnet wrested control away from the locals during brown vs. board and they cannot bring themselves to admit their mistake. So, we will continue to be burdened with a government that thinks you can place a student with an 85 IQ in the same class with a student with a 110 IQ and they will learn at the same rate - equal outcomes if you will. They want what never was and can never be.

By tonyac

June 30, 2008 9:40 PM | Link to this

Robo:

Please. His heroes athletes and entertainers? If you count his fascination with cartoon characters…then yeah. Pop culture and athletes, not exposed to them. Sorry.

I think you need the professional help. Rather than be appreciative of the fact I don’t want my kid to end up a friggin statistic and having a chance at life, you rant about the evils of drugs and the hallucination of mental and behavioral disorders. All the hugs and kisses in the world didn’t cure his ADHD. One on one assistance didn’t cure his ADHD. The meds he takes won’t cure his ADHD—but it will help manage the symptoms so he can learn to focus and become a productive citizen and successful individual.

Play with him? He’s nine, he is like other nine-year-olds and finds play with his peers far more interesting. His father and I expose him to classical music, performing arts, organized sports…I remember when his peers couldn’t stand to be around him because he was so disruptive, leaving him lonely and questioning himself. He is now ‘the life of the party’ and is truly ENJOYING his childhood.

By tonyac

June 30, 2008 9:54 PM | Link to this

Back on topic:

I see both sides of this argument. Luvs2teach has a plan that should at least be attempted in order to rectify the situation. It may not be a cure, but it is far better than where we are today.

Thomas, I can see your side of the street though. But something has to be done. letting these vagabonds float through the system into delinquency is taxing the rest of society. they may never be CEOs but need to have some decent skills in order to be productive and sustain themselves.

One thing we can all agree on: at the rate things are going, it is unlikely any of us will see real change anytime soon. Despite the obvious failure of the status quo, the bearecrats would rather give a vital organ than conceded defeat on their BS policies.

By jackieO

June 30, 2008 10:00 PM | Link to this

SO LEE RE:…*” we will continue to be burdened with a government that thinks you can place a student with an 85 IQ in the same class with a student with a 110 IQ and they will learn at the same rate *

We are not only “burdened”….but doomed, right??? As long as the DECIDERS of publc school policy continue to base operations/decisions upon such an erroneous, yet politaclly correct, premise , there is no hope!!! So, again I will reiterate, from a 30 year teacher’s point of view: The first 10 years you teach, you think you can help the children! The 2nd 10 years you teach, you think you can change the system! The 3rd 10 years you teach, all you want to do is get the H out of there and pray that your grandkids can go to Private School!!!!!**

By jackieO

June 30, 2008 10:22 PM | Link to this

THOMAS!
Re:These kids we throw away today will come back to haunt us in the future. You are so right!!! Pay now or PAY LATER!!!! If only the Deciders would pay attention and offer another path for these students, Instead of insisting that everyone MUST take college prep classes….chemistry, trig, physics!!! There are so many other paths to becoming successful , contributing citizens. Todays public schools humiliate,denigrate, and offer nothing to those students who, as Lee pointed out above, are just not college material. HUGE MISTAKE…!!!HUGE!

By thomas

July 1, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

Well, it appears that our public schools are getting to the point where they will be designed only for college bound students. Look at the new requirements for a high school diploma as written by the GA DOE:

4 years English 4 years of math 4 years of science 3 years of social studies 3 years of CTAE/Foreign Language/Fine Arts 1 year of PE 4 years/units of electives

That’s ridiculous. Why does a student need to take chemistry, calculus, physics, and three years of Spanish if they are going to trade school or the military? What if they just want to work after school?

These silly rules are designed to force many students out of school. This is by design. Those students who seriously want to go to Harvard will take the extra course work on their own. Everybody else can take the basics and move on with their lives.

And people want to know why the dropout rate in Georgia is so high.

By C.

July 1, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

LUV2TEACH, JEFF & CATLADY

RE: SON W/ ASPERGER SYNDROME - HOLD BACK IN 2ND GRADE? FYI: Decided to hold back my son in 2nd grade. I think it is the best decision and you guys simply echoed my believes. The principal has agreed to place him in his same class w/ same teacher. Dad hasn’t been an easy sell on this one, but I won him over. Thank you all for the confirmation.

By luvs2teach

July 1, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

simon - I know you don’t think all teachers are incompetent, but you know, not all failing students are due to incompetent teachers, either. Some is incompetent teaching, some is incompetent parenting, and some, believe it or not, is student choice - yes, choice. I know, because I chose that road at one point in my life - there was nothing a teacher (or any other grown-up in my life) was going to do to change that.

When I say a student is reading below grade level, usually I am talking about their score or a national norm-referenced test like the ITBS. I also teach a lot of ESOL kids, and reading academic English is a challenge. They have difficulty understanding the textbook, as well as any test I or the state might throw at them. I never advocated wholesale retention based on one test (the validity or which can be called into question - and I’ve called on it myself). I’m talking about looking at the whole picture. At my school, the kids who failed the test also failed the classes (except for the aforementioned SPED/ESOL kids). In any case, a failure of one or the other indicates some problem somewhere, right?

As far as the science CRCT goes, you’re right, it’s not looked at for promotion - yet (it is supposed to be phased in eventually). However, failure here will come back to bite a student on the keister in the form of the GHSGT. What is the section most commonly failed, thereby keeping a student from graduating? That’s right - SCIENCE!!

As far as my plan costing too much - well, failure is costing us a lot, too. I can’t see the American public putting up with one bad story after another about the state of our schools.

Food for thought: back in the old one room school houses, could kids advance at their own pace? Take more time if they needed it? Move faster if they could? Have you ever seen an old 8th grade graduation test? What the heck has happened since?

By luvs2teach

July 1, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

C. - best of luck to you and your son:-)

By luvs2teach

July 1, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

thomas - while I agree that not all kids have to be (or even should be) college-bound, and I do question the wisdom of some of the new graduation requirements, I do want to make a corection. Not everyone has to take 3 years of a foreign language - it’s a choice: 3 years of a FL - or - a CTAE track - or - Fine Arts. A tech/military/job-minded kid can take what s/he needs. In my son’s HS those choices can include classes like ROTC. They’ve also expanded science choices to include some CTAE classes such as Horticulture.

Again, students and their parents need to be informed - go to your advisements! Talk to the counselors! Talk your principals and ask them about expanding choices in these categories. Find out what you need to be successful on the path you choose.

By catlady

July 1, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

C: good luck! Your son is lucky to have a thinking mom and a teacher willing to go to bat for him. Keep on learning all you can and being his advocate. (In my experience in the past, dads have been what has kept kids who needed to have another year from getting it) Kudos to your husband, too. Holding a kid back does not make them smarter, but it gives them time to solidify their gains and BE ONE OF THE CLASS LEADERS FOR A CHANGE.

By simon

July 1, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Have you ever seen an old 8th grade graduation test? What the heck has happened since?

I guess the simple answer is that more students are still attending schools at Grade 8 today. Schools are caught in the middle because if students drop out, they get penalized. If they stay in the schools, they get penalized because some of them do poorly on exams.

As far as the reasons for students failing, for which of those reasons do you think holding them back a year will make any difference?

By luvs2teach

July 1, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

simon - as far as more people staying past 8th grade, that’s true, but of course, the counter-argument is that we have stretched out and watered down the curriculum. Who knows? I’ve also seen that same test referred to a a “graduation” test - it’s very interesting to research the old stuff.

Anyway, as far as retention goes, I don’t advocate holding them back a year - I advocate making them repeat what they failed - if they failed 7th grade math, then they repeat 7th grade math - they can move on to 8th grade in the other subjects - or they can go to summer school. Placing them wholesale into the next grade clearly isn’t working.

As far as kids with more issues than a bi-weekly magazine goes - well, maybe the school needs to push the parents to do something else with their child until that child is ready to learn. Maybe if the parents know that the school won’t be a babysitting service or a holding ground until prison, they’ll get their kid the help they need. Most kids don’t choose to fail for themselves - they’re choosing to fail to punish someone else in their lives (cutting off their nose to spite their face in the process, unfortunately).

By Simon

July 1, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

I realize I may be an idealist, but there are people who have academically succeeded in spite of their family background - parents who don’t care. Why? Some of it is because of their own determination, but some of it is probably their teachers. I don’t think L2T is necessarily writing those kids off, but I get really upset with teachers blaming their students failure on their parents. Those kids are up against so many obstacles, starting with their parents. Unless teachers are willing to put efforts into changing those parents, they should really focus on how to help those students with indifferent parents. Many have succeeded. Give those kids some break - teachers may be the only adults in their lives who can actually do something positive about their lives. Teachers shouldn’t be joining those parents…

By luvs2teach

July 1, 2008 6:37 PM | Link to this

Simon, I guess I’m a realist, and not an idealist. I don’t want to write anyone off, but at a certain point, it doesn’t matter what we do - it’s up to the kids and/or their parents. As a society we have to decide what the acceptable point is to say, “Ok, you’re on your own - we’re here if you want to come back.” For many, that point comes after they realize the world doesn’t want a drop-out. For some, that point never comes. I accept that - many people can’t.

I’m not blaming kids’ failures solely on their parents - there are as many reasons for a kid’s failure as there are kids. What I am saying is that if the problem isn’t school-related, and if the problem isn’t something within the child, like a learning disability or low IQ, then the school’s ability to fix the problem is limited. We’re already stretched to the max trying to fix the things we should be doing well - why add more to that (especially when a lot of what’s being added is more redundant, useless paperwork - when did you last see a form solve a problem)?

I want to see kids succeed - if that means taking math 3 times before you get it, then so be it. But telling kids they’re ok, and then sending them to another classroom where they’re lost again only reinforces the message that they are dumb. That, to me, is abusive.

It’s a lie - that kid that can’t pass 5th grade is not ok - they’re on a likely path to dropping out.

In a perfect world, if I were able to enact my plan, there would be a conference with every kid and his parent to see where the disconnect is - I would test the kid’s hearing, vision, and IQ. I would want to get as complete a picture to help that kid as possible - and if the problem lies in family dynamics, then the family would be recommended counseling. If the problem is solely academic, it could be fixed. However, the world needs to realize that this is not Lake Wobegon - not every kid is above average - actually based on the rules of 8th grade math, a bunch of them are going to be below average, lol, right?

We need to quit pretending someone with a 75 IQ can complete a course and retain the same as someone with a 160 IQ. That doesn’t mean that both don’t have something good to offer, but their strengths are not the same. We need to quit pretending we’re all equal and solve the problems we can solve.

BTW - I am the person I talk about (or at least one of them) - as a teen, I had issues and I had a tough time, and I made some stupid choices - I came this close to dropping out. I had terrific teachers and guidance counselors who tried to help me - I did not want to be helped. Eventually I decided that that was not the person I wanted to be, and I got my act together. I joined the military where I got some of the structure and discipline I needed, and found a lot of kids just like me. I work in a diverse school with an interesting population - I write no one off, but I also don’t take excuses. I’ll work with a kid, but the kid knows, s/he has to work with me, too. I’ll share some of my story with the tough cases - they are usually shocked that a teacher almost dropped out. I learned early on in this job that I can’t save the world - I can, however, work to make my part of the world the best it can be.

By Simon

July 1, 2008 9:49 PM | Link to this

I am focusing my discussion on K-8 (actually K-7), where students do not have the right to drop out. Therefore, it IS (public) schools’ responsibility to provide education to ALL children no matter what. Teaching is the profession where you don’t select students. Professional teachers have the duty to provide appropriate education to students irregardless of their individual problems. If teachers don’t like it, then they shouldn’t be in a classroom. No one is forcing them to be a teacher. They shouldn’t be changing the job description because they just want to have it easier.

Clearly we should not expect the same academic achievement level from all students. I am a realist in that sense. That’s another reason I am not really in favor of holding students back based on the CRCT - or any academic factor - alone. Schooling should be much more than just learning academic subjects. Yes, we are not in Lake Wobegon - that’s the reason schools SHOULD deal with students who are above AND below averages. What I hear people are complaining is that they want to make schools with only above average students by denying those who are not doing well academically opportunities to participate in education.

By luvs2teach

July 1, 2008 10:54 PM | Link to this

simon - you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink - you can lead a child to knowledge, but you can’t make him think…Providing an education and taking advantage of that opportunity are two different things.

Tell me, where do you get this idea you keep touting about teachers wanting to make the job easier? We knew what we were getting ourselves into, generally speaking. Wanting to provide appropriate education is what most of us want (I’m always willing to concede that there are bad teachers and slackers - as there are in every profession). It’s a common thread in your posts and I’m just not sure where it’s coming from. We don’t want to hold kids back - or pass them on - to make things easier - we want them to be in the right place to be successful. Getting rid of redundant paperwork - now that would make things easier!

Defining appropriate education is where we often get stuck - is it appropriate for me to give one of my 8th graders third grade work? I have done that, on more than one occasion - that’s where those kids could find success. Many still couldn’t pass the CRCT - in any subject - and often, mom didn’t think there was a problem.

Students aren’t held back solely because of the CRCT (clearly, lol, even if that’s what the law said), and they never were. First, the “gateway” concept only applies to 3 grades (3,5,8) and two tests (Reading and Math - and math is only applied for 5th and 8th). Second, if a kid fails the test, they get a second chance to take it again - and they are eligible for remediation beforehand. Finally, if they fail the retest, then there is a meeting with the teachers, principal, and parents. A review is done and a decision is made. You can tell from the AJC research that over 90% of the time the kid is passed on anyway.

I can’t speak for elementary, but I can tell you that in middle school, a child can fail 2 out of their 6 or 7 academic classes and still be promoted - free and clear. If they fail three or more they are usually eeigible to go to summer school and make the work up. In any case, the majority of kids are moved on. My concern isn’t about how easy or hard it is for me - my concern is that we are apssing kids without the skills to be successful. Our schools are not set up to properly remediate these kids, and they continue to fail. It was because of social promotion, grade inflation, and schools graduating functional illiterates that NCLB came into play. NCLB wants every child to be on grade level - 100% - by 2014. Do you think that’s going to happen? I don’t.

AS far as your comment goes that schools should be about more than learning academics, I’m going to have to respectfully disagree - let’s get the academics under control and then worry about the bells and whistles.

You said, “What I hear people are complaining is that they want to make schools with only above average students by denying those who are not doing well academically opportunities to participate in education.” - where did you hear that? I don’t think any of the teachers posting feel that way. My frustration is that we’re not providing appropriate opportunities for participation. Sitting the 75 IQ in the same classroom as the 160 IQ isn’t appropriate for either - but it’s trendy.

By luvs2teach

July 1, 2008 11:06 PM | Link to this

simon - an analogy…let’s pretend…

I am a gymnastics teacher. My class is a second level class where all the kids are supposed to be able to do a cartwheel and a front flip, and it’s my job to teach them to do a back flip.

I have a very diverse group of students in my class. I have some boys and some girls, all 12 (you know how wildly different 12 year old bodies can be). Some are weak, some are strong; some are overweight, some are thin. I have a kid in a wheelchair (can’t leave him out).

I do a pre-test and ask everyone to show me their cartwheel and front flip. Some can’t do it. One doesn’t want to be in gymnastics, but her mom is making her, so she purposely messes up. The wheel chair kid can sort of do one if his aid helps lift him up and over. So, now I have a decision to make: Should I spend time getting the “below level” kids up to speed? What about the kids that are ready for the next step - what are they supposed to do while I reteach the lower level kids? What about my little Olympian who can already do a back-flip - how can I keep him engaged while dealing with the others?

This is what a classroom teacher sees everyday - these are the decisions a classroom teacher has to make. No matter how good that teacher is, someone is going to be missing out on “academic learning time” which is what most researchers agree is the key to achievement. It’s so not about making it easier - it’s about making it appropriate - it’s about making it work.

By simon

July 2, 2008 7:52 AM | Link to this

L2T,

As long as you think academics come first in K-8, then we will not likely to agree on most issues. I believe (public) K-8 education is about helping children become productive citizens of our society. Developing citizenship should be the goal of public education. Clearly, this cannot be done by schools alone, but I also do not think it is solely parents’ responsibility, either.

When teachers complain about kids who are not prepared, they are complaining those kids are making their jobs harder, aren’t they?

“Success” comes in many different colors. Academic achievement is just one form of success, but if the only success students get in schools is academic achievement, schools have failed.

As a gym teacher (in a public K-8 school), I know that the goal of any gym class is to help students enjoy physical activities and understand their benefits. My job is not to produce next Mary Lou Retton (I’m showing my age). I want students to get more physically fit, but it is more important for me that they understand the value of physical fitness and develops the habit of engaging in physical activities at the level they can comfortably participate.

I also want students to understand the value of persistence - sticking with it when things get a little tough. I also want them to become encouragers of each other - so just because you may be the next olympian, if you don’t have the compassion and enthusiasm to cheer on an uncoordinated classmates trying to do the most basic physical movement. I also want them to experience and seek the joy of enjoying the success of others.

So, 12 diverse kids, 12 great reasons for me to be a gym teacher. Is it going to be hard - you bet. I need to find appropriate a common activity that all can participate to help me reach the goals I have for kids. But, that’s why I am a professional. I have the professional knowledge base. I am a member of a professional community, where I can seek support from others. I continue to learn to meet the next challenge.

Am I an idealist? Yes, but I think teachers should be idealists.

By luvs2teach

July 2, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

simon - your idea is very Japanese - citizenship is nice, but, outside of kindergarten, it comes second to academics for me (unless you’re in a social studies class - then it’s kind of the point).

IMHO, church, scouts, sports, and home are where good citizens/team players are primarily developed.

No, when teachers complain about kids not being prepared, we’re not complaining about our jobs - we’re worried about the kids being able to do their job. My job is the same, whether the kid is prepared or not. Teach science. I can manage to do that at pretty much any level. However, if the state is going to come in with some arbitrary kind of benchmark, I can’t guarantee that my kids are going to meet that - I can however guarantee growth. I’ve I get my kids from a 4th grade level to a 6th grade level (and I have done that), why that’s two years growth in one year - that’s amazing, right? Except in the eyes of the state, I’m still a failure, and the kid’s still a failure, because he’s still 2 years behind.

By my saying that academic focus is key, I didn’t mean to take out art, music, or PE - I consider those academic - but if kids aren’t experiencing academic success in school then what reason do they have to come, other than see their friends or increase their drug sales? (BTW, I work at a MS where we have had some weed floating about - it’s not an unrealistic comment).

LOL, Mary Lou Retton did her thing after I graduated HS, so there’s a clue to my age as well. My little analogy wasn’t talking about a public school gym teacher - it was a theoretical gymnastics school (I was actually picturing Bela Karoli - there you go, lol) where you met a goal and then moved up. Your job is different - and different from mine as well. I would love to be able to teach kids to enjoy science for science’s sake - it makes the world an interesting place, and I can do that to a small degree. Unfortunately, I have curriculum I must cover, that the kids get tested on, and both our performances are judged by - that’s the cold hard reality of the classroom in the age of NCLB.

I do agree on your second to last (full) paragraph about persistence and compassion. In my classroom I call it being a good audience. I like to have them do a lot of public speaking because I think it’s a skill that people need (even if you don’t grow up to be a politician or an actor, you may be asked to deliver a toast or a eulogy someday). Part of helping them get the confidence to get up in front of their peers is ensuring that their peers will be receptive. Unfortunately that skill isn’t going to be assessed on the CRCT.

Research on academic learning time has shown that if kids are going over material they already know or aren’t ready to absorb, then their not learning. I want my kids learning becuase I don’t believe in busy work.

A little idealism is OK, but an idealist will get swallowed up by reality.

By luvs2teach

July 2, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

Correction:

Research on academic learning time has shown that if kids are going over material they already know or aren’t ready to absorb, then they’re not learning. I want my kids learning because I don’t believe in busy work.

By jim d

July 2, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

L2T,

Yuo giong too bee the speling cop twoday? :-)

By luvs2teach

July 2, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

jim d - only for myself :-) I figured I’d do it before someone else remarked that it was indicative of teachers’ education level and why education is in the sorry state it is today, lol!

Seriously, though, the their/there/they’re thing (as well as your/you’re) really bugs me, in my own or others’ writing - I had to fix it!

By simon

July 2, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

It’s interesting that you describe my idea Japanese. Japanese students seem to be doing rather well, in academics, aren’t they? Why wouldn’t we get the same results if we use a similar approach?

By luvs2teach

July 2, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

simon, yes, the Japanese are doing well. They are also a relatively homogenous society that has a respect for culture, society, and their elders instilled from birth. They also go to school for 220 days to our 180 - and often study of Saturdays. Apples and oranges, my friend, apples and oranges.

I have friends and family who have had the pleasure (and it is a pleasure, from what they say) of teaching in Japanese schools. None think that much of what works there would work here because we value our independence too much - America’s cowboy mentality - question authority - you know what I’m saying. All of this is why I said that that your comment was very Japanese, and I thought curiously so. It wasn’t a dis at your comment or the Japanese; it was simply an observation.

By jim d

July 2, 2008 1:34 PM | Link to this

Japan also does a few things we’ve discussed here on several occasions

The school year starts in April and consists of three terms, separated by short holidays in spring and winter, and a one month long summer break.

Another characteristic of the Japanese school system are entrance exams, and with them a high competitiveness among students. Most high schools, universities, as well as a few private junior high schools and elementary schools require applicants to write entrance exams. In order to pass entrance exams to the best institutions, many students attend special preparation schools besides regular classes, or for one to two years between high school and university.

Gee imagine that, Year round school as well as Choice

By simon

July 2, 2008 2:03 PM | Link to this

*They are also a relatively homogenous society that has a respect for culture, society, and their elders instilled from birth. *

Well, a part of those values are learned and further enhanced in schools, as well. So, it may be a chicken-or-egg question. I think our schools will benefit greatly if we start emphasizing citizenship much more than we do now.

Yes, Japanese children may go to schools as many as 220 days or so, but those are the number of school days. The number of lessons for each subject area is specified by the Ministry of Education, and they are MUCH less than 180. The TIMSS results showed that US schools actually spent more minutes on math than Japanese schools.

I personally don’t see why we can’t have 220 school days - after all, so many parents want the baby-sitting service the schools provide, don’t they?

Saturday schools are not a part of public education - it’s up to each individual family to decide - it’s like the special gym schools you were thinking of. They serve very different purposes, and public school teachers should not get confused about their roles in public K-8 schools.

By the way, to me citizenship includes all those characters you said you agree - patience, compassion, etc., as well as those skills you also mentioned. It is different from civics or whatever you learn in a social study class. Citizenship education should be the primary importance of public K-8 schools. What is unfortunate is that too many of decisions regarding schools and students are made on measures such as the CRCT which is about the secondary purpose of schooling, i.e., academics.

Speaking of cowboy mentality, I strongly recommend you read “Educating Hearts and Minds” by Catherine Lewis. You will see that we have a huge contradiction in our schooling. Even though we say we value individualism in the US, primary schools where students must follow the teachers’ directions - even going to bathroom. They are told to line up and they are told to walk down to the next corner, etc. Where is the individualism? In Japanese schools, children have 10-20 minutes break in between lessons, and they are to learn to take care of those personal businesses during the break. Their daily schedule is not the same for every day of the week, so they have to learn, starting in the first year of elementary school, to look at their daily schedule and pack the necessary books and notebooks.

Are we saying that the US children are incapable of doing what those Japanese 6 years olds are doing? I refuse to believe that. Apples and oranges? Perhaps, but I don’t think we need to stay that way. I don’t advocate we become just like Japanese, but we should critically re-examine what we do and why we do it.

By luvs2teach

July 2, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

I don’t advocate we become just like Japanese, but we should critically re-examine what we do and why we do it.

I agree. I often post about that. BTW, I am a scientist first, and a teacher second - I am alternately certified, so I’m often not looking at the situation as filtered through the lens of traditional schools of teacher preparation. I am looking at it as someone who has worked in the mythical “real world” as well as spent time in the military. I still think academics come first - that’s the point of school. Citizenship can (and probably should) be embedded, but we lose focus if schools become a social experiment instead of institutions of learning. When did our schools start to decline? By some studies it was when we instituted the factory model of education in an attempt to “Americanize” the large waves of immigrants through the late 1800s and early 1900s. The Japanese never had that problem.

220 schools days won’t make a difference if academic learning time isn’t increased - studies have been done looking at school year length and achievement, and the key factor is academic learning time, not length of the school year.

There’s no individualism because we (the educational establishment, not me or you personally) feel the need to “control” the children because someone somewhere thought that indicated “good classroom management.” I see a switch in some of that though - newer elementaries have bathrooms in the rooms so the kids can take care of business.

When I was in junior high in MA (‘77-‘79), we went to lunch on our own. Now, thirty years later in a middle school I have to escort my students to lunch, in a line, and sit with them. I hate it, and I hate it for them. I would love to do as the Japanese do in that regard. I also refuse to think that our kids couldn’t handle more responsiblity, but the trend the last twenty years or so has been to give them less. We are juvenilizing (I don’t know if that’s a word, but it should be, IMHO) our kids.

Looks like it’s working out great for us, eh?

By Linda Irwin-DeVitis

July 2, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

This report is inaccurate. Georgia College requires 18 hours of math and math education. UGA also requires 18 (but allows stat or a technology course to be substituted for one math course.) The organization that published the report did not request info (or go to our website apparently) or verify their information. Shoddy research should make all readers question the validity of this report.

By simon

July 2, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

Again, we have a fundamental disagreement about what comes first.

An increased instruction time would not do a thing unless how we teach changes. Clearly, an increased time might allow teachers to do something differently. However, it seems clear that our teaching has to improve if Japanese students seem to achieve so much more with a fewer minutes spent on a subject and with so much more emphasis on citizenship.

Content knowledge alone is not sufficient to teach effectively. I think our universities are the best example of that statement. In spite of all those great minds, we don’t always witness the best teaching in their classrooms, do we.

By jim d

July 2, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this

Bottom line,

There are a couple of things we could do right now that would, in my opinion, improve education.

As in the Japanese model we could allow CHOICE, go to a more balanced school calendar, and create competition for admittance to the better schools. All things I’ve advocated for years.

By luvs2teach

July 2, 2008 4:57 PM | Link to this

simon - don’t confuse “academic instructional time” with “academic time” or “seat time” or “engaged time” - or even “time on task” - it is none of those things. It is the time spent actually actively learning - so the method of instruction isn’t important, it’s whether or not the kid is learning that is. It’s student-dependent, not teacher-dependent. If the material is beyond their current understanding or something they already know, they are not learning even if they are engaged or on-task.

I’ll agree that teachers could use more training in maximizing this (and minimizing the largest waster of time: poor classroom management), but I also must add that they could better tailor lessons if we didn’t fool ourselves into these one-size-fits-all classrooms where 9 months is the standard in which to achieve learning.

The Japanese test and cull, something that is frowned upon in our era of feel-good teaching - and you yourself said you didn’t approve of tests being used to determine academic placement.

Content knowledge alone is not enough, but it sure helps - 8th graders will eat you alive if they think you don’t know your stuff!

Well, simon, this has been fun :-)

By Simon

July 2, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this

L2T: What exactly is a teacher’s role in your view? It seems like everything is up to students.

There is NO high-stake testing in Japanese elementary and middle schools. NONE. Their norm is social promotion. Retention for poor achievement is almost unheard of. Just about the only time a student is held back is if s/he misses too many days of school.

Their high-stake tests, as jimd mentioned, are entrance exams: high schools as they are not a part of the compulsory education, and colleges. Yet 99% of Japanese students do go on to HS. Moreover, there are more seats in colleges/universities than HS graduates. So, if you just want to go to a college, you are almost guaranteed a seat. Of course, if you want to get into a first class (or maybe even 2nd and 3rd class) colleges/universities, you do have to study. Of course, if you aren’t going on to colleges, that’s a completely different matter. I don’t have as much problem with the use of academic achievement in screening students beyond the compulsory education (beyond age 16 in the US, I guess). If students want to drop out, that’s their choice, and schools should not be punished for their decisions. The same goes for colleges/universities. I don’t think academic achivement should not be the primary criteria for placement in K-8 schools.

Content knowledge may be necessary, I agree. But, content knowledge alone will not qualify anyone to be a classroom teacher, IMHO.

By luvs2teach

July 2, 2008 6:21 PM | Link to this

simon - a science teacher’s role is as a facilitator to student learning. I plan the labs - the kids do the labs and then learn from the labs. I try to get them to discover on their own - the way original scientists did - I try to do mostly inquiry-based learning, as opposed to cook-book labs. It’s certainly not easy, and it takes a lot of planning time.

I believe, in general, that teaching/learning is a 3-legged stool - parent, teacher, student. Weakness in any of those areas will cause the stool to topple. This particular blog has been primarily about diagnosing and curing student weakness - at least that is how I see it - so I could see how you perceive me putting a lot of the responsiblity back on the kids. But, as I tell my students all the time, I can’t “learn” them. They need to learn. I can show them how to do that, but I can’t do it for them - nor can parents for that matter.

I was referring to the Japanese HS entrance testing - remember, I’m an 8th grade teacher and the mom of a high schooler, so my view tends to be skewed in that direction - you couldn’t pay me enough money to teach elementary. My point was that the kids know they need to work (so as not to bring shame to themselves or their family) so they do. It’s expected. Here in the US we make excuses - oh, they’re only kids, we can’t expect them to take responsibilty for their learning. You mentioned that the Japanese kids are encouraged from an early age to take responsibility for things that parents here would have heart attacks if we asked our US kids to do the same - we can’t even ask them to clean up a classroom - which Japanese kids also do.

I imagine each child in my class as being like my own, and every decision I make takes into consideration the question, “Would I want my child to be in this classroom?” I always try to answer yes. On the flip side, I know what I do to stay informed and on top of my personal children’s education (and my daughter was in the 9th grade when I became a teacher, so I’ve been an involved parent longer than I’ve been a teacher) and my expectations for my parents are no more or less than I would expect of myself. I teach in my neighborhood school (which is highly diverse culturally and socio-economically) because I want to make a difference in my community. What I don’t want to make are any more excuses. I’m not touchy-feely, and I don’t apologize for that - the kids still know I care - I care enough not to accept less than their best effort. I’m a realist because the world is a harsh place, and a lot of my kids already know this - they come from harsh homes. For me to sugar-coat things is an insult to them, and frankly, turns them off - they like it when I “keep it real.”

As far as content knowledge goes, I’ll agree it’s not everything, but it’s pretty darn important - you can’t teach what you don’t know. It becomes more critical in secondary school than in elementary.

By simon

July 2, 2008 8:54 PM | Link to this

L2T;

I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but I believe you can make our students more responsible. Clearly you don’t start with something too difficult, but haveing their own pencils and notebooks, for example. I think the use of loose leaf note papers is a terrible idea for K-8 schools. Teachers should also be much more careful about teaching children how to take notes, and how to use their notes to study. Our children (K-8) need to understand “studying” is not the same thing as “homework.” We also know from many comparative studies, Japanese teachers don’t assign as much homework as US teachers. That does not mean that they don’t expect students to study at home. They do, and students, typically by middle school know how to review what they studied that day and study ahead. Teachers can’t learn anything for them, but it is Japanese teachers who teach their students how to study. Unfortunately, I don’t think I can say the same about most US teachers.

By the way, I don’t think Japanese kids study so that they won’t brin shame to their families. With the possible exception among the elites, I don’t think most families care whether or not theri sons and daughters get into the most famous high schools.

I think we should never ignore the importance of content knowledge, but it’s only a minimum requirement. Quality of teachers depend mostly on other professional knowledge.

By luvs2teach

July 2, 2008 9:21 PM | Link to this

simon - I would LOVE to ask my students to be more responsible in terms of books, paper, pencils, etc., but I (and others) have been flat out told that we cannot include those things as part of their grade (because it’s not a standard), and we need to be sensitive to our students home lives and the fact that they might not be able to afford pencils or paper. At both high-risk schools I taught, it was generally understood that good teachers provided those things - teachers who weren’t responsive to our popoulations needs did not.

I agree about the difference in studying vs homework - our kids don’t know how to study - “train the brain,” as it were. I think they lost this when we stopped making them memorize things. I don’t think school needs to be drill and kill, but I think there is some value in learning how to memorize something. It’s like practticing any physical skill - it gets easier the more you do it. I do several mini-lessons throughout the year on cognitive training - the kids like it, but always ask why they never learned it before. The theme in my room is “work smarter, not harder.”

I found different information about the Japanese, that the students were expected to do more work at home - maybe that reffered to the studying. That time also made up a large part of their “academic learning time” making more time available during the school day for other things.

I don’t know about your school, but I don’t see a lot of homework given at any level in my middle school or the on-level and college prep classes at my high school. What the elementaries do assign can’t count for a grade (so I’ve been told). My kids did have a fair amount of homework in honors and AP classes.

I was told the part about shame from my mom’s cousin who taught in Japan for 40 some-odd years and married a Japanese man. Maybe it was that generation or maybe it was just her experience - can’t say.

As far as content knowledge goes, I do believe in the adage that they don’t care what you know until you show that you care - however, once they know you care, they expect you to know what you’re talking about. There is no quicker way to lose the tenuous respect of a tweener or teen than for them to find out you’re full of it. I have seen chemistry PhDs fail miserably - I have also seen ed PhDs that couldn’t teach their way out of a paper box - full of theory but lacking all pratical knowledge. I have a whole theory on how to change teacher preparation programs but that’s a blog for another day.

By simon

July 3, 2008 8:36 AM | Link to this

L2T:

Again, my idealism will show, but as I read your comment I am puzzled why everything must be tied to grades. In Japanese schools, homework is rarely counted in grades. Perhaps here is where “shame” does come in, but if you don’t do your homework and you failed to complete a problem in class, in the front of the room at the blackboard, that might give some students reason to do work. I get so dismayed when I look at my sons’ homework - both amount and quality. I really do not think daily homework should not be a part of grade.

Being responsible does not mean students/families purchase those items. Being responsible means that they will use those items for their own learning effectively (of course, how to do so must be taught starting in elementary school). Instead of giving them sheets of papers - I bet a half of which is simply get lost - give them a notebook that they must bring back to class everyday. Again, this has to start in elementary school. Of course, this actually requires teachers to change what they do during their lessons, too. Teachers must think much more carefully about what they write on the board as it is a model for students’ notes.

As far as learning to study, I don’t think it has much to do with memorizing or drills. Clearly it is important for students to know certain facts, but the purpose of schools (in academics, still only secondary to me) is not to create a whole bunch of walking encyclopedias. Facts can be always looked up. Our focus is to teach students to think and develop productive disposition. Memorizing really doesn’t serve those main goals much, and although it is not necessary to eliminate them, we need to keep a good balance.

As far as teacher preparation goes, we need to remember that those programs are only preparing the “first year teachers,” not expert teachers. Teacher “education” must go on throughout their careers.

By luvs2teach

July 3, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

simon - ok, very mini-cognitive lesson for you - it explains while I feel there is some value in memorizing.

Your capacity for learning basically resides in three “places” for lack of a better word: your input, your short term or working memory, and your long term memory.

You input is your five senses - very early on I explain to the kids that if they don’t pay attention to input it’s like it never happened as far as the brain is concerned - input is the gateway to memory. So I try to make my lessons as attention-grabbing as possible.

Then short-term or working memory - if input is like an inbox, then STM is the desktop. However, most items only stay in STM 7 - 15 seconds - just long enough to jot down a phone number for example - or copy your friends work. My main point to kids on this part is that when they copy, the info never gets to their long term memory so in effect, they have never learned it. It really makes a difference. Max volume for most people’s STM is 7 plus or minus 2 “chunks” of info. I teach the kids how to chunk to maximize their STM.

Finaly, the mac daddy, the the long term memory - every thing you have ever learned resides there (although retrieving it on demand may be a problem). There are two ways to get things into you LTM - repetition and connection to prior knowledge. As far as repetition goes, studies show anywhere from 3 - 21 times before something sticks in the LTM - not really efficient. What works better is to link it to prior knowledge - if STM is your desktop, the LTM is your filing cabinet, and you want to create an effective filing system to aid retrieval.

I think the exercise of memorization helps kids train their brain on how to do this - again, I don’t advocate wholesale memorization of random facts - I don’t want walking encyclopedias either. I think kids need to memorize their times table to 12 - it facilitates any higher math they are going to need to do. I make mine memorize certain elements of the periodic table and their symbols, because they will see them over and over and over agian - if I were a true memorization-freak, I’d make them memorization all 118 - I don’t do that, the twenty most important, that’s all. While it’s true that facts can be looked up (there’s a great quote from Einstein on that one), some kids aren’t going to take the time to look it up. You need a base of knowledge from which you can draw in order to have anything to think higher-level thoughts about.

All of this depends on attention and motivation - if a kid isn’t motivated to learn, s/he isn’t going to. Initially, they can be externally motivated by their parents, their teachers, their peers, or their grades, but if the motivation never becomes internal there are going to be problems. It doesn’t matter what the parents or teachers do - the choice to learn is ultimately up to the child.

Now correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t KUMON math a drill-type program developed by the Japanese?

As far as responsibility and materials go, I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I didn’t mean that the ability to buy those things was considered responsible. I meant that we were encouraged not to push the issue because of the reasons they might not bring those things to class. I’m still not sure if that made sense, but I haven’t finished my coffee yet, so it will have to do - basically, it’s more excuses, “Oh we can’t expect them to __ because they are _” Fill in the blanks. To expect them to do something is considered “culturally insensitive” or “not meeting the special needs of the middle school child.”

Everything is tied to grades because everything is tied to grades! That’s the way it is - that’s the way it works. Kids and their parents have been trained from day one - it’s the main external motivator - it’s like their paycheck. Teachers have been trained, too, because A - we came up through the same system, and B - parents and kids expect something, and C - administrators expect teachers to show some measure of their assessment. So many of my kids will ask, “Is this for a grade?” They’ve been trained. They’ve also been trained not to do things if it’s not for a grade - even if it’s in their best interest.

Now with the push for standards-based learning, I’m seeing some changes. For example, at my school we have a lot of discussions on how grades should reflect what they know and not what they do - it’s why we can’t dock a grade for not having a pencil or give them extra credit for bringing in tissues. You would need to change the mindset of an entire generation of parents, kids, and teachers to make things not about grades.

As far as continuing teacher ed, you’re talking to someone who currently has 90 PLUs since her ‘04 certificate - how many do I need to renew? Oh, yeah, TEN LOL. Preaching to the choir on that one, my friend (and no, I didn’t get my master’s).

By simon

July 3, 2008 7:25 PM | Link to this

International studies have shown that US teachers have more advanced credits/degrees than many Asian teachers. Yet, Asian teachers’ professional development activities seem to be much more effective and meaningful in terms of their quality of teaching. The state requirement on the number of PLUs is meningless if the only thing that matters is the number of credits. Teacher professional development must be tied much more closely to what actually happens in their classrooms.

Kumon is developed by a Japanese businessman to help his son. As you may know, it is based on 100% mastery of skills - much of their work is through worksheets. It has nothing to do with what happens in Japanese public schools. Another interesting aspect of Kumon seems to be their beliefs in the carefully structured worksheets. As a result, they really don’t require “teachers.” Only thing an adult needs to be able to do is to check students’ worksheets against the answer keys.

I don’t discount the necessity of memorization, but I guess I am concerned that elementary math teaching has tendency to become just memorization. It makes no mathematical sense to require children to memorize multiplication table to 12 - Japanese (and most Asian I suspect) children do not memorize 11s and 12s, and that seem to have had no impact on their achievement in later grades. The fact that we had children memorize to 12 has much more to do with the social environment than mathematical - our customary measurement system sometimes involved 12 to 1 exchange.

The goal of mathematics (and in any subject matter) should be helping children to think. I would rather have students understand our number system and multiplication well enough to know that 11s are basically times 10 and one more set. When the focus becomes memorization and getting the correct answers immediately, children stop thinking. Then, we wonder why our older students can’t think. When our education focus is on memorization, we are making our children robots, not human beings, whose real power is their ability to think.

I also think grades get in the way of real learning, specially among older students. Some students eventually come around and realize that what is really important is that they understand the materials, but many never do. It’s another damage we are causing on our youths by schooling, IMHO.

By thomas

July 3, 2008 9:39 PM | Link to this

What you guys aren’t getting is that school isn’t about actual education and learning.

Second, teachers in the U.S. get advanced degrees for the additional pay and for career advancement. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Third, the schools in places like Japan are actually trying to teach children. For them, education plays into the competitive struggle those people go through. In the America and much of the western world, you don’t have to know a d_mn thing to get ahead. It’s all about who you know, what you look like, and how well you can work the system.

By luvs2teach

July 3, 2008 10:04 PM | Link to this

I don’t want the focus to be on memorization (did I even say that - I think not), but I truly believe we have thrown the baby out with the bath water but not having them ever learn to memorize EVER. How are they supposed to learn how to make things stick? How are they supposed to learn tricks to aid retrieval? They can’t think about anything if they have an empty head. You know they’ve taken a new look at Bloom’s and they’re thinking that the knowledge level might not be as “low” level and basic as we’ve been taught. They’ve renamed it “remembering” and every other level is built on top like a pyramid.

OK, as a science teacher, who works primarily in metric, I’ll concede and say they only need to learn to 10 - which is really only learning to 9, since tens is just the number with a zero. It’s not a lot to ask, and it’s going to allow them to focus on solving a more difficult problem becuase they won’t get bogged down on the “easy” math.

Well, you can go out on the grades crusade on your own - they are what they are, and I don’t have the time or inclination to mess with that. I’ve got more useless PLUs to get - ones that have nothing to do with my classroom.

By simon

July 3, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this

• …but I truly believe we have thrown the baby out with the bath water but not having them ever learn to memorize EVER.*

So, did I ever say no memorization??? What happened in elementary math classrooms (and still happening in many classrooms) is just focusing on basic facts and lots of drills and practices. In the last 20 years or so, there has been an attempt to shift away from the memorization craze to a more balanced approach (standard-based?), but in actuality many teachers have been just doing what they have been doing for years. Some, as you suggest, moved away from memorizing but didn’t replace it with any meaningful learning activities. Thus, students in those classrooms got nothing. But, I would say most teachers, whether they are still focusing on memorization or doing nothing, really understand how math should be taught differently - so, here is the link to the professional development issue. They go to all these workshops with faddish ideas like “differentiated instruction,” “understanding by design,” and “formative assessments,” but their classroom instruction just does not change because workshops are so far removed from their classrooms. They can accumulate as many PLUs as they want, but unless they change their instruction, those PLUs mean nothing, don’t you think?

I am talking in generality. I have no idea how L2T, or anyone else on this blog, teaches. So, my criticism is not meant to be a personal criticism against anyone particular.

By the way, thomas, in Japan, China, Korea, Singapore, etc., who you know still matters a lot. I also think teachers should get paid a lot more, with or without any advanced degree. Make teaching a 12-month job, even if schools are not year around. We should give them sabatical, as colleges/universities do. It is the most important investment that any society can make.

By Bob Rose

July 8, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

Public education has failed, especially for the children of minorities and of the poor. It is time to switch to a voucher system which will save the taxpayers money, and will greatly improve education. (Elementary schools that don’t provide kids with a solid foundation in the three R’s early on will loose customers and quickly leave the market.)

By Where-there-is-Air

December 6, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

L2T, where do I sign up. I moved to Ga 2 years ago and started looking into schools then. I found very disturbing the SAT and CRCT numbers. At that point i decided homeschool was the way to go. This year my son did attend 6th grade, and I was shocked at the inconsistencies of the teachers plan. Some provided a syallbus and others did nt, some sent home progress reports and some didnt. I first think we need to make a decision’s as to how we are going to keep the parents involved. it is like pulling teeth trying to get some of these teachers to let me in on whats going on in class. So, in some partents defense I can see how they may not know their child is failing until it is too late. I could not imagine if I had more than 1 child..

And another thing, why are students forced to take a forgien language in the 6th grade, when 20% failed LA , Math, or SS. Not only are they forced to take it 6th but they have to take the same language 7th and 8th, thanks to this new Baccal-crap program they have adopted. We don’t have time for that crap, if we cant read and write in English yet. In the school where my son goes 700 students took the 8th grade CRCT, 99 failed the first time, 83 failed it the second time, 57 where passed anyway.

Thanks for letting me vent