Get Schooled

By MPH

June 26, 2008 8:32 AM | Link to this

The Michigan program does not pay the families $100. It provides a $100 rent subsidy that is paid directly to the landlord.

By Marta

June 26, 2008 8:35 AM | Link to this

The Michigan program does not pay the families any money. It provides a rent subsidy that is paid directly to the landlord.

By WFC

June 26, 2008 8:48 AM | Link to this

The Michigan program is a waste of taxpayer dollars unless one can modify the behaviors of poor parents. There are reasons they are poor.

By Martina

June 26, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this

The school I previously taught at had that same problem. There were only a few older neighborhoods in the attendance district which had fewer and fewer elementary-age children in the 7 years I was there. Cheap apartments were built around the school, and my classroom was like a revolving door. One year we surveyed our 5th grade students, and only 6 in the whole grade level had been there since kindergarten. However, I don’t think subsidizing rent is a good idea. Don’t we already “help” people to the point of taking away their self-reliance?

By Gwinnett Educator

June 26, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

I do not agree with the Michigan plan at all. We already live in an entitlement age, why make it worse? I actually believe it will make the behavior worse.

My former school in Dekalb is notorious for this. All of my 9 yrs there, I would barely end the school yr with 8 of the students I started with.

One yr (teaching 2nd grade) I had a student come to me and it was his 4th school since the previous yr. He began the school yr somewhere, was gone by Labor Day. Started the 2nd school shortly afterward (missing some days) and then was out before Xmas break. DID NOT ENROLL into school number 3 UNTIL MID FEBRUARY! Stayed until the end of the yr, started the school yr off with me that Aug.

Now, what sense does it make to have the same curriculum if the students are missing days/weeks in between transfers?

I have no idea what can be done to help? I look forward to reading the suggestions and ideas today.

By jim d

June 26, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

WTG, MI.

Looks like the state may be trying to entice more schools to join their “Schools of Choice” program.

If you are unfamilar with it, you can find it here

By Ernest

June 26, 2008 9:29 AM | Link to this

This does bring up an interesting point of possibly including a new measure for each school, the transiency rate. While I’m sure some can make a fairly reasonable educated guess about this, it would also be interesting to correlate this to other measures such as AYP, Parental Involvement, Teacher transiency, etc. Again, I believe most of us know what we would see with this but perhaps seeing all these measures together would encourage communities to direct additional resources to these types of schools.

Regarding the Michigan plan, there are obviously other issues in play. While our growing global economy is benefiting many, especially those in other countries, we will continue to see a growing underclass in this country. Manufacturing jobs that basically required someone have a good work ethic and not necessarily a post HS degree have moved offshore leaving fewer opportunities for those types of individuals. IMO, as our middle class continues to shrink, we we see remedies such as what Michigan is offering crop up more and more.

By Joy in Teaching

June 26, 2008 10:03 AM | Link to this

A few years ago, an administrator told me that any time a school looses a student to a move, that it actually counts on the books as a “dropout” even though the student enrolls in another school.

Tony, is this true?

By Tony

June 26, 2008 10:23 AM | Link to this

This phenomenon is a symptom of social issues that should not be placed upon the responsibilities of schools! Unless our communities begin to recognize their own ills and address them from within, there is little hope in correcting some of these social issues that negatively impact students’ learning and schools overall achievement. Keeping kids in school is one step in the right direction.

I am unfamiliar with the Michigan concept and we try to find additional information. There is a cost for students who move from school to school, so it makes sense that someone would recognize that and treat one of the symptoms at the source.

Generally, I do not favor increasing entitlements and the program in MI may turn into one. However, I applaud the effort because it looks at a root cause of students’ failure in schools rather than blaming schools for these students’ poor performance.

By catlady

June 26, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this

I would LOVe to see a correlation or overlay of transiency vs. test scores, etc. Our DOE COULD produce this pretty well, at least between fall and spring FTE counts. Why not? Who can make this happen?

Our school, although mostly poor (probably 70% free lunch) has very little turnover. We tend to gain a few kids each year, but lose very few. 90% of our Latino kids have been at the school their entire school lives.

We do have a couple of families that flip flop between two of the elementary schools, based on being able to keep up the rent.

At one point the Univ System of Ga worked out a predictive index model for students staying in school, based on inputs (H.S gpa, SAT, parental SES). Thus, a UGA was expected to hold onto students much better than a Savannah State, for example. Looks like we could do the same thing for k-12.

By Tony

June 26, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

Joy in teaching - How dropouts are counted confounds many people. In most cases, if a student moves and enrolls in another Georgia school he/she is not counted as a dropout against the school. The problem is that as of yet not all transfers are traceable. If a school can not prove enrollment in another school by a student who has moved, then that student does count as a dropout. They also count against the graduation rate for high schools. You’ll probably be surprised to know that until sometime in the 1990s, students who died counted as dropouts.

Once Georgia has its new state-wide student information system in place, dropouts and graduation rates within the state should be easier to track. There will still be no way to track students who leave the state or country.

So, your answer is yes and no. It depends on how good the school’s investigative staff is. We have one principal who has a near perfect record of tracking down transfers/dropouts.

By Tony

June 26, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

catlady, your question about test scores vs mobility would be a good one to examine. I don’t think a simple statistical comparison would do the question justice. A follow-up comparison could be based on how many moves in the kids’ school careers. Frequency of moves might be a factor to look at. Reason for move, another. Our state’s data collection could provide some assistance answering these questions now that we track FAY kids.

By jim d

June 26, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

1 question re: Student Turnover??

Is that something one can buy hot at Arby’s??

Sorry Folks,

Just couldn’t help myself! :-)

By Gwinnett Educator

June 26, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

@jim d..lol..cute, considering you can get a walking hashbrown at the waffle house.

By luvs2teach

June 26, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

Thank you, thank you, thank you for finally having this as a topic for discussion!! For the last couple years I have been really focusing on the turnover rate in my school - the majority of our CRCT failures and behavior problems come from the transient students, whether they’ve been in our county system or not. It is beyond frustrating! Not to mention the costs of un-recouped books, filing paperwork, etc (one of my schools actually had to have an extra guidance clerk becuase of the amount of transient paperwork).

One of my feeder elementary schools pulled out the scores of those that attended the school for three or more years versus those that hadn’t - the difference was astounding. The scores for those that had stayed were comparable to the “best” elementary school in the district, while the others were right in line the those on the lower end.

Another of my feeder schools actually requested its apartment complexes to stop offering free month’s rent - or at least tack it on to the end of the lease. Believe it or not, some did, and it helped!

I have mixed feeling about the Michigan plan - part of me thinks that anything that will help keep students in place is good. Yet another part of me thinks, “great, another entitlement that my tax dollars are supporting.” I feel like putting more pressure on the complexes themsleves might be a better way to go - after all, they’ve got to be losing money everytime someone skips out on the rent, no? And who wants to rent in a complex that feeds into a known bad school - low-lifes, that’s who.

Who knows - I’m glad we’re finally talking about it though - it’s important, and it’s a factor, no denying it!

By jim d

June 26, 2008 12:23 PM | Link to this

Ahh, but Gwinnett Ed,

Student turnovers could be used to improve education in shades of Soylent Green

By catlady

June 26, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

jim d—how many Student Turnovers can you get for $5? How about Teacher Turnovers? At the end of the commercial do we say, “I love you” “I love you, too”? :)

Tony, could we get something of a handle on turnover looking at FTE reports over time? Admittedly it would not capture every move. A kid could be in school A in August, School B in October, School C in December, and School D in January, and it would only show 2 schools attended, right? When WILL the new tracking ability be ready? We’ve had FTE numbers assigned for YEARS; I don’t understand what the problem is with using that data. WHY is it taking so long, do you know? Does the DOE just not WANT to track students within Georgia? I feel like Richard Dreyfuss in “Close Encounters” “What’s going on here?”

By luvs2teach

June 26, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

LOL, jim d - I was at my first Kentucky Derby, back in 2001, and we were corralled in line to exit. We were standing there for awhile, shuffling along slowly, and my sister shouts out, “Solyent Green is people.” It was pretty funny.

And I don’t know about a student turnover, but I had a couple that I would’ve liked to scramble!

By Tony

June 26, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

catlady, this is just a guess, but I think the CRCT reports schools get with FAY status as an indicator would be an easier way to get started answering some of your questions. The state has this entire database and FAY has been used since we implemented the requirements for NCLB. That means we go back to 2001. The problem is with the unique identifiers or GTIDs. These have only been in place for the last two years. FTE numbers are not necessarily unique because a student can have more than one number. When a family refused to allow the SSN to be used, the student was issued a “look alike” number. For someone who moves a lot, they could have multiple numbers. Without the unique identifiers, it would be difficult to determine which students move frequently. Some matching could be done with name, bday, SSN (if available), gender, ethnicity. I don’t want to get into the politics of the statewide student information system, but the process has not been as neat and clean as it could have been. Funding issues, who is in control, who decides what information is pertinent, local school systems’ computer resources, on and on….. are just a few examples of the difficulties encountered.

By catlady

June 26, 2008 1:48 PM | Link to this

Tony, I didn’t realize GTIDS had only been around 2 years. Yet, what is the STATe waiting on? Surely they can pull the information, whether individual systems can or not. I knew there was a problem with SSNs because our school personnel “assign” a number to the “undocumented alien” children when they arrive, which I presume is only used by our school (altho it is coded in on labels for CRCT, etc.)

Like a LOT of other things (IMHO) the state has been asleep at the wheel on data analysis issues for years, and I don’t see it improving. What bothers me is when the school personnel are faulted because of not using some of the data, longitudinal or otherwise, to drive instructional planning. Colleges have Institutional Research offices to answer questions and drive planning initiatives; why not K-12?

Thanks for your perspective.

By SallyB

June 26, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this

THIS IS NOT A NEW PROBLEM!! If the great DECIDERSin their Ivory Towers had ever listened for one moment to teachers in schools that have a transience problem…and it is definitely a problem…. this number would have been a pivotal one in assessing/evaluating the cause of low test scores as well as many other problems . It has been discussed and bemoaned by teachers in schools where I have taught for over years and years!! Begs the question…NOT what’s wrong with the public schools….BUT…What the He[[ is wrong with these people…the DECIDERS??

By SallyB

June 26, 2008 2:34 PM | Link to this

oops!!! I think I meant transiency…

By V for Vendetta

June 26, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

To be honest, I don’t really care. If you care about your child’s education—and I mean truly care, placing first and foremost above anything else—then you’ll find a way to afford the rent, house payment, tent, mobile home plot, in a good school’s district. More distressing:

Just who in the holy hell is paying for these people to receive $100 in Michigan? Is that tax money? Is that school money? Whatever the source, I’m sure it’s coming from a public coffer and not some private institution. I would be insanely irate if I found out my tax money was going towards such a completely asinine plan. You know, kind of like those folks in the APS who are watching their tax dollars go into students pockets so they can learn. Pathetic.

Seriously, what the hell is going on in this country? It’s downright sickening.

By Tony

June 26, 2008 3:26 PM | Link to this

V-public money is already being widely used to subsidize rent payments. This is how cities are able to get out of the public housing business. The ones in need are given some form of voucher and are allowed to find their own homes to rent. The reason ideas like this gain support is due to the fact that government money ends up in the hands of businesses. This is the very same reason the “school choice” agenda is so popular with some politicians. Vouchers would be used to put government money in the hands of “private enterprise”.

By catlady

June 26, 2008 4:30 PM | Link to this

Vouchers would be used to put government money in the hands of “private enterprise”

Like everything else…follow the money. A lot of what is done “for” the poor through taxes ends up benefitting the business community quite directly. My eyes were opened when I read a book about how the problem with “hunger” makes a lot of money for groups who can get rid of unusable (not just unused) foodstuffs, and get big tax deductions, and the groups they dump them on have to pay to get someone to haul it off!

One concern I would have with the MI plan (besides the others mentioned here). Many folks I know, if given “help”, use that help to take care of needs they were paying for already, and then use the money they “saved” in questionable ways. Probably true of most everyone, I guess, which is why I wonder how it could be a good idea. Example: if someone started paying my electric bill, then I could use that money to get me a fancy entertainment system, instead of putting it toward weatherproofing my house, a better long term use of the money.

There is a tie in with the HOPE money. Now many parents don’t have to pay the tuition payments, so the money goes for fancier housing or cars for the student. One “need” replaces another.Or you have folks who say they cannot go to college without the HOPE. Well, how did they go before HOPE? They either saved money beforehand, or they took out loans, or they worked and went part-time.

Disclaimer before I get jumped on: I am not against HOPE or helping folks. These are examples, for the sake of discussion. I do think everyone needs to fully think through the implications and “unforseen” consequences of policies, however, and hold government’s feet to the fire when it uses tax monies in ways that look like they are benefiting one group, but actually might just pay off another.

By Teacher, Too

June 26, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

Off-topic question: Did anyone happen to watch the PBS show on gangs in Georgia? It was rather alarming to see the rapid growth of gang activity in the state— and that translates to a rapidly growing problem in schools. (I know there is gang activity in schools- when I taught in Gwinnett, it was routinely ignored— “We don’t have gangs in our school,” was the party line.)

ON topic I think this is a problem that will only get worse with the way the economy is right now. I also wonder how many kids that have been in private school will be moving back to public schools because of the expense. Families that are on a tight budget because of spending that 10,000 -12,000 (or more) a year on private school may find that money needs to be used elsewhere to survive.

By TheBlogger

June 26, 2008 6:13 PM | Link to this

Yes it is a problem. However, uniform curriculum/lesson plans is NOT the solution. That approach really handcuffs the teacher’s flexibility to teach to the students already sitting in the classroom. I am VERY much against that approach (although it seems to be a common approach in GA).

The core problem is arental behavior and their inability to provide a stable home for their children. This core problem is the direct cause of the difficulties the schools feel. Fix the core problem and then no one would have to worry about the impacts on schools.

Another level of the ‘core problem’ is the interpretation that America provides a free education (yes, we pay for it in taxes, but you know what I mean). Just because it is ‘free’ doesn’t mean that people can abuse it. There should be rules for all to follow to order to get this free education. Here are a couple that I suggest:

I am sick to my stomach that my tax dollars are used to pay for what amounts to baby sitting and to solve societies ills when the money should simply be going for education, PERIOD.

By SallyB

June 26, 2008 7:02 PM | Link to this

PAY NOW ….OR PAY LATER[welfare, prison, rehab, etc.] We just need brighter, clearer, heads to be DECIDERS of WHAT our tax dollars are going to pay for NOW>

By Lee

June 26, 2008 7:23 PM | Link to this

Schools exist to provide a service.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Whoever shows up at the door, the school teaches. The school cannot control movement of the populace, nor should they try.

So, tell me. What is the difference between paying someone’s rent and giving them a voucher to pay for private school?

By almh

June 26, 2008 10:28 PM | Link to this

The school near me has a high turnover rate. My kid will start kindergarten in 2010 so I’m still researching. We are looking at private as well as the school choice program within DeKalb. One of the things I liked about the Theme schools was that if you don’t attend the first day of school you can’t get in. Also, parents sign a contract saying they will stay for a year or more.

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