Get Schooled

By Grandfather

June 25, 2008 8:23 AM | Link to this

We need to get government out of the education business completely. Let members of the local community either organize their community schools and set the standards for the teachers or offer a combination of private/charter schools to educate today’s kids. This would make the need for do nothing administrators obsolete and put the education money where it belongs…with the teachers and supporting their efforts in the classroon. Show me in the Constitution of the United States where it says the government is responsible for educating the populus.

By Tony

June 25, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this

Local school districts are the best way for communities to set and maintain their educational standards. Government interference from the federal and state levels has eroded this local control over the years. The US Constitution does not address education. The Georgia Constitution does address education and says that it is the responsibility of the state to provide an adequate education for all.

The answer to your final questions was addressed through legislation several years ago. No more independent school districts would be allowed. However, the state has recently cracked the door on that issue with a school system in the Eatonton area. They allowed a special taxing district (or similar) to form their own charter school system. Maybe that’s their solution.

By At least we live here

June 25, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

The larger countrywide district definitely isn’t working in Muscogee County (Columbus, GA). For some reason, Muscogee County School District is spending $25 million on the fancy new central administration building while schools go without working AC, students go without textbooks, schools go without custodians while teachers are told to clean their classrooms themselves, and schools go without P.E. teachers. It’s a shame. To think, we thought Clayton County was bad.

Unfortunately, the media is a joke there, so no one questions the school district on this. Everyone worries about teacher accountability, but where is the accountability with school superintendents and school boards. I would think an investigative report is desperately needed, but it won’t ever happen as the GOB network is still running things in Columbus.

By Larry

June 25, 2008 9:20 AM | Link to this

While it would seem smaller school districts are in a better position to respond to local needs, Gwinnett’s record shows large districts can work very well.

Since the GCPS student population exceeds that of some states, it’s not unreasonable to compare things like Gwinnett’s SAT participation and scores (to pick a favorite) to those of any given state. When you do this, you’ll notice GCPS compares favorably on a national level.

Grandfather: if you want to get the government out of the education business, you might start by discovering the rather basic fact the pubic education is a state, not a federal, issue.

By eye_kay

June 25, 2008 9:26 AM | Link to this

Having local communities dictate all of the education decisions and curriculum would result in even more disparity between schools. Just because the local school board thinks that it is OK to teach evolution or not, shouldn’t decide what the kids in that district learn. All kids in the whole state should have the same exposure to knowledge. If they are going to take the same standardized test to pass or fail a grade, they should all be taught the same things in school.

By Ernest

June 25, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

We live in a metropolitan area and the decision was made to ‘pool’ our financial resources for the common good. For sake of round numbers, let’s say you have 2 kids in school for 13 years (K - 12), it costs 10K a year to educate each child, you pay 4K a year that goes to the school system, and you pay that amount for at least 40 years. This definitely makes public education look like a bargain. Admittedly, some of the figures might be inflated because the cost to educate a child is averaged over all the children in the district.

My point is I’m not sure some are willing to pay more in taxes for education, even if it means smaller school districts. I have many friends with children that live in the NE corridor, and they pay 12-14K annually in property taxes along with a higher sales tax rate. Some would say they have ‘better’ schools but at they are willing to pay for them. Quite a few of these are 1-2 HS towns hence smaller school districts.

I wonder if we knew how much we collectively pay in taxes then examined how much we get back (including federal dollars) if we’d still be having this conversation.

By jim d

June 25, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

Yeah Larry,

So what’s your point? Care to comment on the per student spending in GCPS? Or how about just a comment or two on a budget of over $1.5 BILLION a year?

By LAURENCE

June 25, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

YES THEY ARE OUTDATED! SCHOOL DISTRICTS ARE MOSTLY RUN BY RACISTS! THEY ARE STILL IN THE 1800s TRYING TO MAKE LEARNING HARD FOR BLACK KIDS AND MAKING EVERYTHING EASY FOR WHITES! WHEN OBAMA GET ELECTED THINGS ARE GONNA CHANGE! BLACK CHILDREN WILL FINALLY GET THE EDUCATION THEY DESERVE SO THAT WHITE CANT HOLD THEM BACK NO MORE!

By catlady

June 25, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

Mixed feelings on this one. The feds and state meddle way too much in local ed affairs, IMHO, unless they want to foot more of the bill. However, who is to say that an independent school district might put in place policies that discriminate. For example, many in my community would deny education to kids of illegal immigrants. In south Ga, I have heard of districts that underfund because the white school board sends their kids to private schools and to heck with the black kids.

As long as we have free movement, people who are not happy can move to another district (and do!). That, however, is predicated on money to be able to move.

Then there is the issue of funding. My county has a pretty low millage rate for schools. Would we be willing to up ours to go in with a neighboring county? Would they be willing to subsidize us?

Sometimes when you are too big you lose sight of the small, important things. Then again, in small systems you have a lot of things decided by the in crowd based on petty family history, and people get hired who are incompetent (while that happens in big systems, I would think a big system, by virtue of size, would mask some of the incompetence). I’d sure hate to have more “chiefs” than we already have: many of them are folks too incompetent to teach so they were kicked upstairs, where they *&!% it up for even more students and teachers.

So, in a nutshell, I’d like to see ideas from others on this, because I don’t have any good ones.

By thomas

June 25, 2008 9:49 AM | Link to this

I was going to post a message about how the modern day school system is outdated, but then I saw this last post/rant and I laughed.

I like it, Laurence. What a perfect day to start off the day. We all need some good humor from time to time.

By don't take the bait

June 25, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

Please, lets not let “Laurence” dupe us into this argument.

These attempts to just stir the pot are sooo transparent.

Get a life….

By mom3boys

June 25, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

I grew up in a neighboring state. My area had both county and city schools. The city schools were primarily in the wealthier sections of town. Typically, parents had to provide transportation. These schools were FAR superior to the county schools, and received much national acclaim (still do 30 years later). I live in Gwinnett, where I am happy that I do not see disparity from one end of the county to another. Students at Sweetwater have the same books, technology, and equipment as Osborn and Jones. This was not the case with the county schools where I used to live (and still isn’t the case there). I think we do a good job of asset allocation in Gwinnett. We, too, have a Taj Mahal for the the central office, and one could question the wisdom of that…however, we also have plenty of new schools and materials. Gwinnett does compare favorably on a national level, but unfortunately, everyone still sees Georgia at the bottom. No one says, “oh, you’re in Gwinnett….you’re not really at the bottom…” Too bad our state as a whole isn’t doing what is best for the kids. How do we fix this?

By Concerned Parent and Homeowner

June 25, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

I’m not sure how I feel about getting rid of the school districts. However, I am a HUGE proponent of school choice. There need to be more alternatives and options to the traditional public school set up (charter schools, theme schools, magnet programs,etc)

By just a teacher

June 25, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

Like catlady, I am torn. In a perfect world, school districts have their eye on the big picture, ideally maintaining high standards across many municipalities. Clearly this doesn’t always happen. I’m not convinced that the best answer is to do away with them, however.

Consider the financial advantages of bigger school districts. Curriculum writing, accreditation, testing: all of these costs are shared by the county and they wouldn’t go away if the district disbanded. Also, big districts get better deals on everything from textbooks to copy paper to buses because we buy in bulk.

(Also, I think we could argue that the US Constitution makes a pretty good case for educating the citizenry in the fact that it places control of the country in their hands.)

By Calvin

June 25, 2008 11:19 AM | Link to this

Well, Laurence has done it again…played the race card. Why is it that every time an issue comes up, blacks have to claim racism? I am tired of the education standards being lowered just to allow some students to be promoted as well as social promotions in our schools. If they earn the grade they should be promoted. If not, repeat until they are 16 and then drop out.

By Grandfather

June 25, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

Larry…have you ever heard to the Dept of Health, Education and Welfare….Are you aware that schools accept and spend Federal money? When they do that they become beholden to the Feds and must do what is mandated or lose the money. How many politicians do you know refuse money?…PERHAPS YOU SHOULD THINK LONGER THAN 30 SECONDS BEFORE YOU SHOW YOUR IGNORANCE.

By Publius

June 25, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

What is outdated is the elected board of education. Board policy is no longer based on what is best for kids it is based on what gets one re-elected. Usually, policy favors those with the most influence, be that money or race. The race game cuts both ways here and it is always the children who suffer.

By Concerned Parent and Homeowner

June 25, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

Calvin: Yes, Laurence played the race card and you played it back. There are a lot of parents (of all colors)that want high standards and a quality education for their children.

By shadow7071

June 25, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

Larry,

Are you aware that NCLB is a Federal Gov. initiative?

Are you aware that since the landmark Brown vs. Board of Education ruling that the Federal Gov. has had their hands in local education.

Are you aware that since President Johnson’s Great Society programs of the 1960s that the Federal Gov. has had an active role in shaping local education initiatives?

By Rachael

June 25, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

This is an interesting topic for you guys. I’m a recent transplant from Phoenix, and I simply could not understand how this system works with so many small counties and cities running on their own.

Arizona might be an interesting study for Georgia- the state runs with several large city school districts (as the state only has 13 counties). They’re also currently considering a bid to unify further- into something like 5 total districts for the major metro area of Arizona.

By Grandfather

June 25, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this

Thanks shadow7071…I need backup sometimes

By catlady

June 25, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

Looks like the troll bridge is up and working. Folks, quit giving him your quarters!

By Elsie

June 25, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

Rachael: Your comment made me chuckle at myself; I’m having the exact opposite problem! I’m a recent transplant from Georgia to Arizona, and I’m still trying to figure out the structure of the school districts here, especially in the rural areas! Folks, these counties are ENORMOUS! Thanks for the smile :)

By Home Schooler

June 25, 2008 1:18 PM | Link to this

I believe the problem is basic and does not have as much to do with the type of system as the execution of teaching and administration. Why won’t poorer performing school systems find “mentors” of more successful school systems and follow the successful model. This includes modeling after some schools in other countries, especially on subjects such as math and science. My understanding is that in some of these countries where children test scores are higher the textbooks are smaller and children also learn to read at an older age. It makes no sense to me to re-invent the wheel - just follow a better model. Has anyone seen such an effort or study? I’m sure some would argue that the diversity of each system is a problem for modeling (income, region, race, parents’ education, etc.). Nonetheless, modeling is still worth a try.

By Larry

June 25, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

NCLB is a funding requirement and is voluntary. Compare this to Georgia Title 20 code, to which all GA public schools must comply. They are very different things and public education is legislated by individual states, just like I said.

Anyone who has followed NCLB from its inception can name quite a few elected officials willing to forego NCLB funding in favor if ignoring its requirements, the first notable public figure being Howard Dean when he was Governor of Vermont.

The reason bottom line NCLB punishments involve federal funding is because the federal government doesn’t have the authority to simply inflict NCLB on state run public education. If it did, they would have simply passed a law and never mentioned funding.

By Marie

June 25, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

I had the advantage of attending Gwinnett County Schools, and also spent a year in Germany as an exchange student. I can tell you from personal experience that I learned more in 1 year at the school in Germany than the 3 years at my high school here. The reason, competition. In Europe students apply to go to differant schools, all the way from elementary through high school. Schools have to compete to stay in the top because the money from the government follows each child, unlike the US where schools are determined by where you live. You have no option and the school will get the money regardless. In the coming decades I think we will begin to see the disparity of the education systems as we are increasingly becoming a global economy yet our education system ranks near the bottom of industrialized nations. Just some food for thought.

By shadow7071

June 25, 2008 2:00 PM | Link to this

Larry,

I have a child in the Cobb County Georgia public school system. If the Cobb County Georgia public school system decided that they did not want to participate in the NCLB program I could sue - the Cobb County School System, the Cobb County Board of Education, and the State of Georgia. If for some parochial reason local courts didn’t rule in my favor I could go to the Federal courts who would in fact rule in my favor and force both the State of Georgia and the Cobb County school system to adopt NCLB. This isn’t a maybe, it is a fact and would happen in a heart beat.

When the federal courts ruled in the case of Brown vs. the Topeka Board of Education they took control of schools away from local Governments. Proof of point. In 1957, three years after the Brown decision, Little Rock Arkansas refused to desegregate their schools. The President of the United States sent in federal troops (that would be the regular Army) to enforce the order of the Federal courts that said Little Rock would desegregate their schools.

Since that landmark 1954 decision the federal Government has been an continues to be involved in our local, public schools. Yes, they offer programs as voluntary. But everyone in the system knows that they had better get in line.

BTW I’m not a lawyer but an informed and intelligent citizen.

By T. Rogers

June 25, 2008 2:20 PM | Link to this

Shadow,

Seems to me if the local governments you are citing would not have been involved in purposefully discriminating behavior the Feds would have left them alone. I will agree the Fed’s reach has become overstated since then.

However, you are citing Brown V. The Board of Education without citing why the Feds came in to begin with. That is a little disingenous.

By Pierce Randall

June 25, 2008 2:41 PM | Link to this

Large size of our counties? Georgia has the second highest number of counties in the country — behind Texas. We have some of the smallest counties in the country.

In Georgia, we draw our political lines too narrowly and concentrate wealth in the hands of the few instead of supporting our communities. That’s what Buckhead would be doing if they founded their own city. That’s what a north Fulton school district would do if funding were separated from the rest of the county. Despite differences in race and class, one defining thing about being an Atlantan is the realization that we face similiar problems. If companies don’t locate here, or move away, because we don’t have an educated workforce, that hurts everyone. If those companies stay, and deal with predictable inefficiencies because the class of today can’t operate the computers and cash registers of tomorrow, that hurts everyone. We face similiar problems with quality of life, commute times, smog, and public infrastructure.

A child in Clayton County has as much a right to be educated as a child in Gwinett. A child in south Fulton has the same right to education as a child in north Fulton. It doesn’t matter who their parents are. I would like to see a Greater Atlanta school district, at least as far as funding goes. If we can’t stand up for education, or for solutions to any of the problems that face us all, we’re not a country. We’re not a state. We’re a collection of greedy, myopic, and piggish fiefdoms dotting a wasteland of our own making.

By shadow7071

June 25, 2008 3:16 PM | Link to this

T. Rogers

Disingenuous?

The debate here is ..Does the Federal Government have input, influence and control of our local, public schools? Larry argues that they do not. Grandfather and I argue that they do. I referred to Brown vs. the Board because it is the landmark case where the Federal courts ruled that the Federal government has the right to intervene in matters of local schools. This backs up my side of the debate. Clear?

Oh, I see, you want me to go on and talk about separate but equal, and discrimination, and slavery. You want me to wallow with you in the quagmire of socials ills that the Federal government has had to step in and attempt to fix with legal and social engineering.

Sorry, not today.

By Jeff

June 25, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

Pierce:

GA also has the largest total area east of the Mississippi.

I personally prefer smaller systems - to the tune that I think each SYSTEM should be capped at no more than 10K students.

Now, I do NOT like city-county boundaries as the basis of the system. For example, North Fulton has a LOT more in common with East Cobb than South Fulton. Why not allow North Fulton/EastCobb to be their own system(s)?

Or, on the flip side: I can probably name about 5 counties in SWGA who are in one continuous area that could merge their systems and STILL be WELL under the 10K student maximum I propose.

By Elsie

June 25, 2008 3:34 PM | Link to this

Pierce: I’m sorry that I was not more clear. When I was speaking of large counties, I was referring to the counties here in Arizona (responding to Rachael’s post). The sheer size of the counties here makes it impractical to have districts formed by county as Georgia does. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.

By T. Rogers

June 25, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

Shadow,

Get over yourself. I am not wallowing in anything. You are upset about the level of control the Federal government has over local public schools. You then cite Brown v. The Board of Education as the beginning of this control. I get that. However, you imply the Feds took control in some kind of vacuum. You conveniently omit the circumstances that led to the Fed’s actions. My point is the situation surrounding Brown V. Board exposed a need for the Feds to have some kind guiding hand in educating America’s children. It exposed a need for some kind of standardization.

By shadow7071

June 25, 2008 5:35 PM | Link to this

T. Rogers,

Ok, here it is…

This is a debate, not an upset, not a argument, a debate. A minor intellectual exercise.

The debate is… Does the Federal government have input, control, over local, public schools? One side of the debate says no. The other side of the debate says yes. I’m defending the ‘yes’ side. For solid evidence that supports my defense I cite Brown vs. the Board. This is the landmark case.

I did not imply anything. I did not omit anything. For the debate it wasn’t necessary that I explain anything. The case stands by itself. The Federal government can intervene when they deem it necessary. It supports my side of the debate.

Clear?

However, you read the post. You read Brown vs, the Board. Oh, boy! civil rights stuff. Oh no! He did not mention why. He didn’t explain why. He didn’t write beautiful prose about the struggle. He didn’t pen a great essay about injustice. He didn’t lament over the marches and the sit-ins. He didn’t remember Martin.

How dare him mention Brown vs. the Board and not explaining the history of social injustice that preceded that decision.

I must respond. I must respond. I must respond

Shadow - You’re Disingenuous!

Happy now?

By V for Vendetta

June 25, 2008 11:36 PM | Link to this

Wow, Pierce. How do you really feel? I don’t know if I agree with your comments. I firmly believe that everyone should have ACCESS to a free education, but that the system (whatever it might be—local, state, fed) should NOT be forced to educate an individual. Those who can not adhere to the system do not need to be in it. Your distribution of wealth sounds an awful lot like educational communism to me. Be careful what you wish for. The residents of Clayton DID have an opportunity to be educated. Unfortunately, the vast majority of them seemed complacent enough with the broken system to ignore its faults until it was too late. No, Pierce, you get what you pay for. If Buckhead wants its own system then that should be their right. If North Fulton wants to ditch South Fulton (and let’s be honest, who wouldn’t?) then that should be their right. Why should their hard-earned money support populations of people saturated with morons who care little for education (regardless of demographics)?

Another interesting question: Are school boards outdated? The vast majority of them seem to be populated by corrupt, self-serving individuals who enjoy hearing themselves speak and know very little about education. This not only applies to educational cesspools like Clayton and Dekalb, but also to Georgia’s paragons of education like Cobb, Gwinnett, and Fulton. A blogger today mentions BOEs in the Columbus area. I’ve heard rumblings in the Athens-Clarke county area as well. More and more I’m finding these BOEs to be absolutely disgusting—no matter where they are.

By jim d

June 26, 2008 6:25 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

GA also has the largest total area east of the Mississippi.

Just to set the record straight. That isn’t quite accurate my friend. While We are the largest in land mass we are not the largest in total area.

Michigan is the largest state east of the Mississippi with 97,990,000 sq miles. However, only 57,324,000 of that area is land. The remainder is the portion of Lake Michigan within the borders of the state (most of it).

Florida is second at 65,755,000, of which 54,018,000 is land.

Georgia is third at 59,425,000, of which 57,880,000 is land, followed closely by Illinois, New York, North Carolina, and Alabama.

By concerneddekalbparent

June 26, 2008 6:46 AM | Link to this

The highest performing school systems in the country are small — generally very small. These systems are also high wealth and generally residents pay tons of property taxes to support their school system. In some of these communities, the citizens vote on the school budget each year if there is a tax increase.

In Georgia, most of our districts are to large. In Metro Atlanta, the districts are to diverse to be managed well.

Does anyone remember, in Omaha, the African-American state legislature who introduce legislation (and maybe got it passed) that split the Omaha school system into 3 districts, all pretty defined by race. His theory was that all three groups would do better if they were separated. There was such an outcry that the plan never was implemented.

What would happen in Dekalb, for example, if N. DeKalb and S. DeKalb were separated (keep in mind that even the N. DeKalb schools are very diverse? Would the S. DeKalb school system be more attentive and effective in schools/communities like McNair and Avondale?