Get Schooled

By Ernest

June 20, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this

I believe can see the value of art instruction, especially in the lower grades. You could add recess to this list also. Hard choices would have to be made with regards to what should be cut so this could be provided.

Anyone want to consider lengthening the school day? IMO, that may be the only way these could be accommodated during school hours. Otherwise they will need to be a ‘for fee’ extra curricular activity.

By Tony

June 20, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

This is a very sad statement for our society, but if you look around it is a real reflection of our priorities. Let’s put education aside for a moment and look at life in general.

Pop culture pays much more attention to professional and college athletics than it does to cultural events such as symphonies, plays and musicals. Top dollar is paid for stadiums and athletes while arts venues struggle to survive. Orchestra players frequently have a “real” job to support themselves.

Pop music is much more about conveying lifestyles than it is about the artistic qualities of music. Many of these so-called singers are groomed by their agents to fit a certain mold so they sell more albums. We give much attention to their lives by hanging on every piece of sick gossip produced by their public actions.

So, arts education is simply not important to many people in today’s society. It is not surprising that it becomes a low priority for schools.

Then, as Ernest discussed, when schools are faced with tough choices for budgetary reasons, we often choose on the side of the academic subjects as opposed to the arts. (Even recess gets cut in the name of “time on task”.) One of the areas you seldom, if ever, hear about getting cuts is school athletic programs.

Who is affected more by these cuts? Poor kids. In areas where there is more affluence, schools are able to keep arts programs because they have the resources. Impoverished areas are much more likely to cut arts because they have to stay focused on meeting the basic standards.

Finally, even though there is significant evidence that arts education has a significant impact on student achievement, this information is completely ignored in the face of the testing frenzy. NCLB and states’ responses to the act has done huge damage to local schools’ decisions about how to organize their school day, sometimes excluding the arts because it is “non-academic”.

Ernest offers two options. Let me offer a third: include arts education as part of the basic education of every child. The arts set us apart from other species on this planet because of the expressive nature. Music, drama, art, theater, and dance should be included in children’s education.

By catlady

June 20, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

No time for it! Gotta have 2 hrs 40 minutes for reading and an hour and twenty minutes for math! The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Cut out the fluff!

Witness this: I believe the grades earned in fine arts no longer count toward HOPE GPA in the high school.

Tony is Right On! on this. Arts ed is NOT fluff!

By catlady

June 20, 2008 10:12 AM | Link to this

BTW, watch how few hits this blog will get today.

By grim

June 20, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

Luckily, I am teaching in an area-south Georgia, nonetheless-that has a strong music program. As a band director, I teach my students much more than reading music and how to play instruments. I teach them about life, how to be responsible, conflict solving, cooperation, teamwork (just to name a few). Not to say that I don’t have problems; I do. In many ways, I teach my students more about life than ‘academic teachers’ do. Whoever says my class isn’t important needs to step in my classroom and observe. many need to re-study NCLB: arts classes are mandated and are classified as academic. Therefore, all students should take arts classes.

By Tony

June 20, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

arts classes are mandated There is no mandate for arts classes. Even from our own state there is no mandate. In many schools, the state does not provide enough funding for an arts/music teacher. For elementary schools, the ratio is 1 art/music/PE teacher for every 475 kids not counting kindergarten. My school is large enough to earn 2 teachers and we supplement the third through other funding. Our students get a minimum of 6 weeks of art, 6 weeks of music and 12 weeks of PE per year. They also get 6 weeks of computer.

I should have stated this in my first post. I am a musician (organist and pianist, classically trained) and a strong proponent of arts education. Our superintendent is also a musician, so we get central office support.

And, catlady is probably right about how many will post on today’s topic. It will be a reflection of our society’s priorities.

By Old School

June 20, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Correct me if I am wrong (and I have no doubt someone will) but isn’t the governing body- GHSA- of school activities comprised of principals and athletic directors?

Our school is fortunate to have an excellent choral/drama department, a pretty good band program (although discipline is sorely lacking), and a so-so visual arts program. Like CTAE, these areas keep kids in school and yet only the band gets any kind of community recognition/support.

I am a total believer in the value of fine arts and that they enrich, sustain, support, and improve academic performance in all other areas. Sadly, it is also these positions that are cut when money gets tight. Why not charge for Driver’s Ed and offer it after school hours? Turn it over to the community, if they want it bad enough, they’ll pay for it. Cut some coaching positions or at least the supplements. Why are 16 coaches needed for 50-60 kids when one band director is responsible for 250? (at least at our school)

Wouldn’t it be nice if we could get our priorities straight? More kids will be entering the workforce than playing professional sports…right?

By Gwinnett Educator

June 20, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

I have been teaching since 1996 and this was my first yr being in a school (1st yr in Gwinnett) that had an Art teacher. We also have 2 music teachers.

In my Dekalb school, we went a while without 1 music teacher and it showed. We had a performance one day by an African Dance group. It was a very interactive assembly. At one point, the students were instructed to clap their hands to the beat. What came forth was downright EMBARASSING! Another teacher turned to me and said, “This is what happens when you take music out of the schools”.

I am musically inclined and I thank my elementary experience for tapping into that. I will never forget my music teachers. We learned to listen to various types of instruments and name them. (of course Math is involved heavily) We learned songs, were introduced to instruments and even had a chance to “play” a violin.

I can still sing the song I learned in 1st grade about the colors. Red, yellow, and blue. These are the primary colors..mix the red and the blue..etc So many people do not understand the properties of colors and mixing them to make other colors..etc. sigh

How do we get children interested in creative things if they arent exposed to them? We need these things and we need a balance!

By Jeff

June 20, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

Keep the musics and maybe a drama class or two, but who really needs visual art? (Dance can easily be shifted to a PE-based class.)

I myself am somewhat of a musician - 7 years playing the trombone in band, something like two decades singing in various church choirs- and the benefit of music is clear. (Got a kid that hates fractions but loves listening to music? Teach him to read that music, and he’ll learn fractions in the process.)

Now, should band take precedence over a core academic? Sorry grim, but I’ve got to answer negative to that one.

Should we have arts in the ES levels (and even MS)? I’m going to say negative to that one as well.

And here is my reasoning: Arts are the icing on the cake. They are GREAT, and many would like to eat nothing but. But until you actually have a solid base on which to put the icing, all you are going to do by eating straight icing is make yourself sick.

Therefore, eliminate EVERYTHING outside of core academics in ES, and SLOWLY introduce non-core-academic subjects starting in MS. If you do it right, the arts will be appreciated FAR more because they will be balanced with the bread of the cake and won’t make you sick.

By Tony

June 20, 2008 11:28 AM | Link to this

Should we have arts in the ES levels (and even MS)? I’m going to say negative to that one as well. and but who really needs visual art?

Elementary school is where arts education is most needed. As children develop and learn, the experiences they gain from art and music are far greater than credit is given.

Jeff, take your example about fractions. In music, you are right about being able to develop the concept of fractions. However, it is still very abstract. Introductory activities in the visual arts give more concrete examples of fractions. Painting and drawing, for instance, have students divide the paper into quadrants. They also use grid systems to duplicate images. They use measurement a number of ways. They also include a considerable amount of geometry.

To say arts is “icing on the cake” exposes how misinformed many people are about the importance of music and visual arts with regard to brain function and learning. The experiences can not be duplicated and create very important connections in the brain.

By Gwinnett Educator

June 20, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I am going to have to disagree on the elimination at the ES level. What is wrong with exposing the children to various things? Using marching bands as an example. A lot of HS bands in metro Atl are marching like college bands. A lot of MS students are marching like HS bands and sometimes WITH HS bands. Therefore, MS is not the time to come in trying to figure out what kind of instrument you want to play and then learning. Exposure is given at the ES level, children decide what they like, etc. Lessons start. By the time they reach MS, their skills are quite good and they can continue to grow.

Children are already losing way too of their creativity. It bothers me when you have a 5 yr old that cant even think of a picture to draw. What happened to the common house, tree, with the sun in the corner? What happens when we really begin writing (like in 1st grade) and we try to get the students to write a little story. That creative side needs to be tapped into. (and no, not a story to be published..but a simple topic such as My Summer Break). It all goes hand in hand and I honestly believe it can be done without losing focus on the core subjects.

By Gwinnett Educator

June 20, 2008 11:47 AM | Link to this

After reading Tony’s response, I thought about something else. Children learn a lot through singing. Isn’t that a form of creative expression (the arts)? We sing songs about numbers, days of the week,the alphabet, feelings, etc We reach children through dance, art, music on so many levels. Jeff, maybe you need to visit some ES classrooms to see just how these things are incorporated and how much it really helps.

It saddens me also how people truly do not understand the importance of the arts on the ES level. Eliminate it from the ES and the MS will have drones coming to them.

By RandolphCountyMusicTeacher

June 20, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

“Arts are the icing on the cake. They are GREAT, and many would like to eat nothing but. But until you actually have a solid base on which to put the icing, all you are going to do by eating straight icing is make yourself sick.”

Now you know why a certain individual no longer teaches.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Jeff you and I have been on this topic before…we both look to Mr. Hollands Opus unfortunately you look to Principal Gene Wolters, why I look to Glen Holland:

*Vice Principal Wolters: I care about these kids just as much as you do. And if I’m forced to choose between Mozart and reading and writing and long division, I choose long division. Glenn Holland: Well, I guess you can cut the arts as much as you want, Gene. Sooner or later, these kids aren’t going to have anything to read or write about. *

Now I am thinking of another quote:

*Principal Jacobs: A teacher has two jobs; fill young minds with knowledge, yes, but more important, give those minds a compass so that that knowledge doesn’t go to waste. *

I think that compass comes with arts…a balance and direction. If we take it out of the school system, and more kids are in ‘after care’ can we at least get the programs to be in the schools after hours?

My daughter discovered the guitar (currently taking lessons) and a way of expressing herself due to her love of the music program (ES) and involvement in school productions. She is now talking about violins and chorus. Both children sing in the church choir.

I would sooner dismiss this program in HS than ES. In ES they have not become jaded yet…their minds are ripe for the richness that music, art, and safe role playing brings. For some children this may be their only exposure to such things.

I am reminded of when they tried to get JROTC out of my HS in my HS years. Some felt that it promoted violence. We lobbied (successfully) that if it was taken out so should the VOCA and DECA programs…along with Home Ec. After all JROTC prepares you for a particular career path just as much as those programs do. In many ways JROTC might be better, it teaches leadership, management, responsibility, and how to teach others.

We need these programs even more now because so many parents don’t bother (or cannot) provide these opportunities to their children. If all the culture and imagination they get is from the Disney Channel I feel sorry for our Tomorrow Land.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

Jeff—Tomorrow is Saturday….Please watch PBS (check local listings) specifically Sesame Street, Word Girl, and Super Reader. Disney channel Little Einsteins and Mickey Mouse Club House. All of these shows are TEACHING children through visual arts, music, and drama. You have corresponded with me long enough to know that my children are not sitting in front of the tube all day. However these programs are ‘Mama Approved.’ for when there is tv time available.

Visit a kindergarten class…They learn reading, math, science, etc through a variety of methods, including singing, cooking, and art.

How many people on the board can thank Morgan Freeman for knowing how to read? Can you really do your alphabet without singing? “Lolly, lolly, lolly, get your adverb here” (Yes that last one is School House Rock and I still remember it). If it weren’t for the genius of the people behind these shows…most of whom attribute it to the early arts exposure…where would be?

With books? Read an interview with Stephen King, JK Rowling, or any other of the authors you like…Yes the first 2 were teachers, and have said without the balance of the arts they would never think to write a story about a Psychotic Car, or a sad 11 year old boy wizard.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 12:28 PM | Link to this

OK blog police will site me for 3 posts in row but Gwinnett Educator hit a good point. Our school does a Young Authors project. In winter term the kids have to write and illustrate a story. Once the stories are put into hardbound form, there is an Author’s Day party. The parents come in and the kids read the stories. I cannot tell you how many of the stories are not original works…we might need to teach the concept of plagerism…they are just a retelling of a movie or tv show. Many times the retelling is verbatim.

It becomes very obvious that these kids are not being exposed to much more than TV or a DVD.

By Jeff

June 20, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

Tony and FCM:

There is no problem using arts AS A TOOL.

Where I have issues is with trying to have a so-called ‘art’ class where the kid does nothing but sit there and make something from clay that LOOKS like it MIGHT be a bowl.

Instead, what if we taught the golden ratio in ES in math class and as a project in math class had the kids find the various famous paintings that use it and describe how and why it was used in those paintings? Obviously, the golden ratio - like pi, for that matter - is nothing more than two numbers divided together, and therefore as soon as a kid learns long division we can show him how it is used throughout the world, INCLUDING in the arts.

In so doing, we have taught the kid both how to look critically at something as well as how to appreciate the world around him. We’ve just combined SEVERAL classes that currently exist into one, and we’ve done a better job at teaching them ALL than any single one does currently.

Again, I’m not saying ban the arts completely. I’m saying give the kids a solid academic foundation FIRST, THEN teach the enrichment areas, INCLUDING the arts.

By Gwinnett Educator

June 20, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

FCM..I am with you ALL THE WAY! I for one LOVE to watch Mr. Holland’s Opus and honestly feel that every educator needs to watch it. I always watch it before the start of a new school yr. ( and still cry).

One of my biggest concerns when it comes to the undeveloped creative mind, it leads to a bleak future. Think about the 5 yr old who does NOT have an idea of what to do at the paint center except mix colors. When there are a few who go over and paint scenes, things they see, or their family. That child that mixes colors has little to no imagination. Now, what happens as they get older and read books with no pictures. The higher the reading level, fewer illustrations appear. What will hold their interest in the story? They dont have the imagination to THINK up characters or scenes, etc.

Its very critical..and I am VERY adament about this! Exposing young children goes a LONG WAY.

By Ernest

June 20, 2008 12:47 PM | Link to this

FCM:

A big smile came to my face when I read your ‘School House Rock’ reference. I liked ‘Conjunction Junction, What’s Your Function’ so much that I downloaded the MP3 for it and other ditties to teach it to my kids.

Blogging here sometimes is like preaching to the choir, most of us appreciate the need for arts instruction but how do we integrate it during the school day? There are many great teachers out there using differentiate instructional methods that incorporate the arts in their instruction of the 3 R’s. I still go back to my first post, we either remove/lighten some of the instructional requirements we are placing on teachers or lengthen the school day. I’m willing to appeal to my local legislators but we know that something has got to give.

My wife briefly taught with a visiting teacher from the UK a few years back. They were flabbergasted that ES students did not have recess. They commented how this is what helps children with their imaginations along with life lessons such as conflict resolution.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

Jeff, in the home schooling discussion yesterday, I responded to those (including yourself) who answered about Common Sense.

I did not have to study as hard, and still retain a good bit, from my Jr. year in HS. This was because American History, American Lit, and American Defensive Theory were classes I took all in the same quarter.

Therefore I can agree to your idea of teaching golden ratio and then having ART class expand on that learning…by a qualified ART teacher not a MATH Teacher. My reasoning is simple…not all teachers/approaches reach all students. It is possible that a concept they are struggling with in math, or English, will be understood through music, art, or drama.

You said that you are a QA/Dev person. That means you do the linear job or test the linear requirements of the Project Manager or Business Analyst. The Business Analyst has to look at several angles to determine what the client really wants vs what the product can do. If you go interview the PMs and BAs you will likely find that they have liberal arts degrees and good deal of knowledge of the cultural arts…often more than the Dev teams do. There are reasons for that.

By Idiot Watch

June 20, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

Some days I read this blog just to see what idiotic thing Jeff will say.

By Gwinnett Educator

June 20, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

Manipulating clay into things that the child has come up with is not a waste of time. Just because it doesnt look like anything to you (general you) doesnt mean it isnt something. That child is proud of his/her work. It starts somewhere.

Where do you think artists, architects, and the like come from?

By Jeff

June 20, 2008 1:05 PM | Link to this

FCM:

Actually, though I am a software developer, a large part of my job is talking to people to get the designs out of their heads and onto paper, and from what I write down I then have to make a program that looks like they want and performs as they want.

Quite a bit of usability/design work is present in everything I work on every day.

And guess how it was taught to me?

I read a book and sat in lectures about web design and usability, then looked at websites that illustrated the points both good and bad.

Same thing applies to ES level kids, and this is the approach I am advocating. Teach them the concepts, then have an expert in the concepts show them other areas where it applies.

Most artists - including most art teachers I’ve known - have no idea what a golden ratio is. I can point to quite a few different paintings and tell you exactly how it is expressed within those paintings, and I’m not a visual arts type guy!

Learn the SCIENCE and you can develop the ART.

Conversely, you may be proficient in the ART and NEVER learn the SCIENCE.

Which is school’s job?

I say the school’s job is to teach the SCIENCE and leave the art to parents.

By Jeff

June 20, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett:

Choose a number

Draw that many circles.

Choose three numbers between 0 and 255.

Paint the background red to the level of the first number, blue to the level of the second number, and green to the level of the third number.

For each circle you drew, pick three more numbers between 0 and 255.

For each set of 3 numbers you picked, paint one circle red to the level of the first number, blue to the level of the second number, and green to the level of the third number.

Know what I’ve just taught you?

I’ve taught you basic mathematics - circles, numbers 0-255.

I’ve taught you basic color theory - different levels of red, blue, and green make different shades of different colors.

And I’ve taught you basic algorithms, the founding idea of programming.

In the next lesson, I could take this exact same lesson and add in a programming-specific language - say, Java- and I could teach you how to build a basic program that displays a random number of circles in random locations with random colors.

I’ve just used a kid’s basic curiousity about drawing things to teach them a concepts that most ADULTS don’t know.

And I can do that as soon as they can read the letters on a keyboard.

Again, my point is not to strip the arts completely, but instead to USE them within the academics rather than wasting valuable school time on frivolity.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

Jeff— I pointed to the linear thinking of a QA person because I spent 2+ years in a QA role. I know what it entails—though I admit each QA position has its own unique issues.

As to leaving the parents to teach the child…if the parents were never exposed to the cultural arts then how will they teach the children?

Ms. Dee Turhune was my drama teacher in ES. Mrs. Lee Orstadt my music tacher. Mrs. Thacker was my art teacher. Yes, my Dad still has a sculpture that is supposed to be me by his bed…and yes it’s hideous. However what these ladies taught myself (and likely others) is still with me today. I can go the High and appreciate the Louvre works on display. I can go to the Ballet or Symphony (I may never appreciate opera) and understand how the music tells a story. I am an avid fan of theater and movies…and took more than 20 hours in dramatic arts at KSU…because I feel in love with this art the most. I will never be a musician (Thank you Mr. Clackum for helping me learn that) or an artist, or a singer (thank you Mom for pointing that out daily), and despite my big desire I will never star on Broadway or co-star with Patrick Dempsey…I will however, expose my children to all of these things (and I do).

One of the first chapter books my eldest read (without pictures) was High School Musical…which ironically pits Basketball, Academics, and Drama against each other. We had a delightful time seeing Pebblebrooke HS perform this show last winter. My youngest was enthralled by Suessical and Lion King this spring. Many of the children’s first books were desired because they were tv characters….or is it just my house that Curious George took hold of in that way?

By catlady

June 20, 2008 1:30 PM | Link to this

Unfortunately, Jeff, the parents have had limited arts instruction either. 95% of them, (me included, with a PhD) could not ever instruct, guide, coach, or even very well encourage my children in much of anything related to music, visual arts, etc. Thankfully, all three of my children had available to them good leadership from the schools they attended, and they are all talented in music and drawing. In college they had the basic requirements to meet the general curriculum, but if it had depended on THAT, they never would have developed their innate talents. God bless the teachers who, early on, got them on the road to being more educated in things artistic. They are all three very knowledgeable with the humanities, liberal arts, and hard sciences but an important part of their beings is what we could call the artistic and creative.

By Gwinnett Educator

June 20, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

ok..so what happens to letting a child freely express their own crativeness. What you just typed has its place as does the freedom of expression (in art).

Im looking at what you just typed and thinking about kindergarten and 1st grade students. That MAY work for a lesson, but trust me…you will lose them quickly. They will want to do their own thing.

I do agree that it should be meaningful. Art should not consist of construction paper, glue, scissors, and crayons only. Music should not consist of listening to CDs and singing with the kiddie voices heard.

I guess what I will never understand is..why must everything be so DRIVEN. I learned about art and music without it being obviously tied to some math standard, etc. (well, maybe it was..but it was oblivious to us) We learned it just because it was there to help us be more rounded.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

My children were having a hard time learning their evening prayer…I am sure many of you know it

Now, I lay me down to sleep…

They could not remember the words…Then one night they were talking/giggling through the prayer…The only song I can sing in tune is Silent Night…so I began singing the words of the prayer to Silent Night. My children learned the words in a week. Oh, and Grandma called one night to find out why the children were singing their prayers at her house.

By catlady

June 20, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this

What we learned was because it was FUN! It was different! It appealed to… the other side of the brain (or something). It was a time to NOT follow rules (as in solving algebraic equations, as in phonics, as in diagramming sentences) and let the playful, immaginative side take over for a few precious minutes.

By Jennifer

June 20, 2008 2:06 PM | Link to this

Jeff, there are numerous studies that show that studying music uses the same part of the brain involved in studying math and foreign language. (For example, both fields, though they seem polar opposites, require structure and logic.)

Catlady, are you pleasantly surprised by the commenting today? :) I wanted to contribute, but there is nothing I can add to the already fabulous discussion. I value the arts tremendously. It is a shame, and a poor reflection on society’s values today, that schools are not able to allow students to explore the arts the way they once were able. It harms society in both tangible and intangible ways, and we all suffer. I also agree with Gwinnett Educator that there is value in unstructured activity. But, as someone said, we’re all preaching to the choir here.

By Jeff

June 20, 2008 2:27 PM | Link to this

Jennifer:

That is actually my point. USE music as a tool in math class. I’ve got ZERO problem with that.

Where I have a problem is when you (general you) start saying that you need a special class to study music or art in the elementary levels. YOU DON’T!!!!

Instead, teach the mathematical concepts BEHIND the music, using it as a TOOL. LATER, AFTER the solid foundation has been laid, you can come in at the later MS/HS/College years and add music appreciation type classes - and the student will be able to ACTUALLY appreciate the music rather than just sitting through the class as an easy A*.

By just a teacher

June 20, 2008 2:43 PM | Link to this

This topic hurts my soul. That our society even has to have this conversation is so very, very sad. There is so much statistical and anecdotal data about arts education. Art makes people think and feel differently than other disciplines. If for no other reason than that they need to be included.

There are lots of folks who talk about the connections of math and science (and I assume the humanities connections are too obvious to need mentioning), but what about the fact that arts education provides something kids can’t get at home, or a chance to develop a skill or talent? Even if the top water-color painter in the 4th grade doesn’t grow up to be Monet, the legitimate self-esteem and confidence he earns may have long-lasting effects. Also, as a core subject teacher, I have seen plenty of students in my classes who would be unteachable or possibly even opt-out of school altogether if it weren’t for their art classes.

It is beyond me how anyone can think arts are a fluff, or icing, or whatever. What a sad, sterile, moribund comment.

By catlady

June 20, 2008 3:01 PM | Link to this

FCM, back in the day (until 1987) my schoolchildren sang the blessing before we went to lunch! I could tell how hungry they were by how enthusiastically they sang. Oh, the difference! (we frequently sang the Johnny Appleseed Prayer, and at the end they would get louder as they sang, “Oh, the LORD… is.. good.. to..me!AMEN!”)

Jennifer :) However, contrast the number of replies on this blog with the number on Wooten’s blog.

just a: Almost everything is fluff according to my principal.

By em

June 20, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

It has always been my impression that a diverse education made for a well-rounded, productive individual. I contend that the arts are an essential part of any education. I am fortunate to work in a system that values both performing and visual arts and is committed to them. Without the performing arts, my child would have never discovered the beautiful baritone voice he has. The performing arts have given him a sense of purpose and discipline to the point that he now plans to major in music in college. Isn’t one of the reasons for an education to discover one’s self? I firmly believe that the other “stuff” is important but without the arts, life would be boring as hell.

By Jeff

June 20, 2008 3:11 PM | Link to this

just a:

Schools are not there to build self esteem. That has proven to be one of the greatest fallacies of modern education.

As I’ve said, I’m not saying remove them completely. I’m saying remove the fluff classes devoted exclusively to them until the student has sufficient academic knowledge to be able to TRULY appreciate the arts. Until that point, use the arts as a TOOL INSIDE the academic classes.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 3:17 PM | Link to this

Jeff—one more thought…with out the visual arts where would your Wii games be? Granted a great deal of math went into the technology….but without the imagination to create those games that math would be busy doing something less creative.

By Tony

June 20, 2008 3:22 PM | Link to this

Jeff, I am so glad you are not in charge! Art for arts sake is a worthy enough goal. Art and music are not merely tools by which we teach other subjects. They are an end unto themselves. Every art teacher I’ve known is able to use and explain the golden proportion better then the math teachers. They are also able to show how the golden proportion function not only in art but in the mathematical and scientific world.

Your attitude about the arts and music in schools is shared by many others much to the detriment of student learning. The kids most likely to lose out on the richness of having art and music are the poorest of kids. Somehow, some people have decided that reading and math must be drilled into these poor kids heads at the expense of all other things that make life worth living.

Music and art are worth learning by their own merits. Separating them out as being less worthy is why so many of our kids are robbed of music and math today.

By the way, do you know which age group thinks they are all artists? kindergarteners! After that, the kids get the impression from adults that art has to look like this or that and are eventually burned out on even trying.Song: Flowers Are Red I hope you enjoy this.

By Tony

June 20, 2008 3:25 PM | Link to this

Since I’m on a roll with media today, here’s one that sums up my feelings about our testing frenzy. Another song

By Gwinnett Educator

June 20, 2008 3:33 PM | Link to this

This is truly a stroll down memory lane. Catlady, I remember the Johnny Appleseed song. I was in kindergarten in Albany, 1977. Mrs. O’Brien was my teacher and I went half days. sigh…life was GOOD!

Another “verse” for the choir..Art in ES also helps with fine motor skills. I can not tell you how much coloring, cutting, manipulating clay helps with those fine motor skills which is what is needed for writing.

I have had MANY 2nd graders who could NOT CUT! (let alone cut on the line) and HEAVEN forbid if it called for them to cut on a curve. The coloring was atrocious. Handwriting was too light, uncontrolled. There are just too many things to list. It all goes hand in hand.

And yes, we know that schools are not there so that the children can “feel good” about themselves. I am afraid that you missed the point that em was making.

By just a teacher

June 20, 2008 3:38 PM | Link to this

Yeah, I was wondering if my “self-esteem” comment would get attention. You’ll note that I said legitimate self-esteem, which in my mind is an organic result to success that was not manufactured to create self-esteem. I agree that it is not the number one job of schools to create self-esteem, but it is also true that all people are healthier when they feel that they are good at something. We certainly aren’t out to prevent students from gaining self-esteem.

Also, Jeff, you talk a lot about arts appreciation, which is somewhat different topic. What most of the rest of us are talking about is engagement in the creative process. It has nothing to do with recognizing baroque or rococo movements. It’s about using the whole brain and body to create or express something that would otherwise go undone.

By tonyac

June 20, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

I’m going with Jeff on this one. If my children have talents in both science or math and dancing/music—-they will be told to pursue science/math. It comes down to dollars and cents in a global market.I’m in my 20s so this may be a harsh reality to some of the 35+ people on this blog, but it is what it is.

All of that love for the arts is great, but since they have limited earning potential it is not what I am most concerned about. I am worried about how my children will fare in an ever-demanding economy with people who don’t give a damn about mozart but can run numbers and create new drugs like nobody’s business.

By jim d

June 20, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

Damnit Jeff,

Keep going, one day you may even be correct. However, today ain’t it.

The schools that produced the highest academic achievement in the United States today are spending 20% to 30% of the day on the arts, with special emphasis on music.

International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement (IAEEA)

By jim d

June 20, 2008 3:52 PM | Link to this

Oh and Jeff, here’s a bit more.

Students who were exposed to music-based lessons scored a full 100% higher on fractions tests than those who learned in the conventional manner.

Neurological Research, March 15, 1999

The College Entrance Examination Board found that students in music appreciation scored 63 points higher on verbal and 44 points higher on math than students with no arts participation.

College-Bound Seniors National Report. “Profile of SAT Program Test Takers. Princeton, NJ.” The College Entrance Examination Board, 2001

The world’s top academic countries place a high value on music education. Hungary, Netherlands and Japan have required music training at the elementary and middle school levels, both instrumental and vocal, for several decades.

1988 International Association for the Evaluation of Educational Achievement (IAEEA) Test

Music training helps under-achievers. Students lagging behind in scholastic performance caught up to their fellow students in reading and surpassed their classmates in math by 22% when given music instruction over seven months.

Nature, May 23, 1996

College-age musicians are emotionally healthier than their non-musician counterparts for performance anxiety, emotional concerns and alcohol-related problems.

Houston Chronicle, January 11, 1998

U.S. Department of Education data show that students who report consistently high levels of involvement in instrumental music during the middle- and high-school years show “significantly higher levels of mathematics proficiency by grade 12.”

James Catterall, Richard Chapleau, and John lwanaga, “Involvement in the Arts and Human Development, ” 1999

A Columbia University study revealed that students in the arts are found to be more cooperative with teachers and peers, more self-confident and better able to express their ideas. These benefits exist across socioeconomic levels.

The Arts Education Partnership, 1999

The nation’s top business executives agree that arts education programs can help repair weaknesses in American education and better prepare workers for the 21st century.

The Changing Workplace is Changing Our View of Education, BusinessWeek, October 1996

Music integrated into seventh- and eighth-grade social studies results in better subject performance and better social behaviors and attitudes.

National Educational Longitudinal Study, 1988

High school music students have been shown to hold higher grade point averages (GPA) than non-musicians in the same school.

National Educational Longitudinal Study of 1988

71% of Americans surveyed by the Gallup Poll believe that teenagers who play an instrument are less likely to have disciplinary problems.

Gallup Poll, “American Attitudes Toward Music,” 2003

A study of 7,500 university students revealed that music majors scored the highest reading scores among all majors including English, biology, chemistry and math.

The Case for Music in the Schools, Phi Delta Kappa, 1994

During moments of musical euphoria, blood travels through the brain to areas where other stimuli can produce feelings of contentment and joy-and travels away from brain cell areas associated with depression and fear.

Dr. Frederick Tims, reported in AMC Music News, June 2, 1999

95% of Americans in a 2003 Gallup Poll believe that music is a key component in a child’s well-rounded education; three quarters of those surveyed feel that schools should mandate music education.

Gallup Poll, ‘American Attitudes Toward Music,” 2003

Martin Gardiner of Brown University tracked the criminal records of Rhode Island residents from birth through age 30, and he concluded the more a resident was involved in music, the lower the person’s arrest record.

Music Linked to Reduced Criminality, MUSICA Research Notes, Winter 2000

Students of lower socioeconomic status who took music lessons in grades 8-12 increased their math scores significantly as compared to non-music students. But just as important, reading, history, geography and even social skills soared by 40%.

Gardiner, Fox, Jeffrey and Knowles, Nature, May 23, 1996

Middle school and high school students who participated in instrumental music performances scored significantly higher than their non-band peers in standardized tests.

University of Sarasota Study, Jeffrey Lynn Kluball; East Texas State University Study, Daryl Erick Trent

By Tony

June 20, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

So, tonyac, you are willing to curse your child to the torture of a career they will despise so they can make a few more dollars. How sad. Money is not the most important thing in the world. I know many musicians and artists who are able to live comfortably by doing what they love. Watch “Dead Poets Society” for a reminder of what happens when parents trample on the dreams of their children. It seems those who think like you have limited intellectual potential. Since you’re only in your 20s, you may possibly realize before it’s too late, that living a life that brings satisfaction is more important than building a big bank account.

If you’ll take a look into the lives of many of our truly brilliant scientists and inventors, you’ll discover they were also artistic or musical.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 4:02 PM | Link to this

catlady—my kids have the Johnny Appleseed song on their Karaoke machine. They love it and often sing it in the car. Heck, on a really good day I am known to sing it too…others are just thankful I only sing when alone!

Gwinnett Ed—I had under developed motor muscle skills as a child. I was held back over them…and it was due to my refusal to do art (because it didn’t look like anything that was in my head) that the teacher took notice.

I do not want to imagine a world without the cultural arts. It would be so boring. I dated a guy who thought like Jeff…really into the mechanics of learning, and enough sense to know he needed the cultural stuff. He set about ‘learning’ them much the same way as you learn math or a foreign language. Too bad he never understood why sometimes you climb the mountain for the pleasure of the view, not the exercise your getting going up. Or why it’s important to see some movies on the big screen (Titanic), or hear a live orchestra play Bach.

I had a largely silly trip to Boston 10 years back. The trip itself was unremarkable…I saw the Cape, Fanhill Hall (sp?), and NE in the fall…all in all a beautiful trip. What I recall is the walk through the museum. They were starting to set up for an exhibit on Cathedrals and religious art——I turned a corner and was not only speechless, but found the depictions breath taking. I promise you no thoughts of math, science, or other academia were in my mind.

Again, I give thanks for those amazing teachers of my past, for those of you who reach out to the kids today, and those that will be in the future. Not all people who go into teaching are really teachers.

By Tony

June 20, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

Good job, jim d. Looks like you got a little fired up today.

By FCM

June 20, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

Tonyac-if what you say is true could you tell me why the majority of the kids in North Fulton (where I live) that do academically well AND participate in Band, Orchestra, and arts (both in and out of school) have parents who hail from India, China, Japan and other areas OUTSIDE the US? The vast majority of US parents are apparently thinking like you or more likely not thinking about anything but the ‘now’.

By Jennifer

June 20, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

Jeff, You missed my point. I wasn’t saying to use arts to get to math. I was saying that you’re dismissing the arts as “fluff,” when in fact they teach many of the same concepts, and reach and use many of the same parts of the brain. That wasn’t meant to imply that the connection between music and, say, math, needs to be explicit. I am a firm supporter of art for art’s sake. I point to the other things as benefits — side effects, if you will. I’m sorry that my original post was unclear.

By HS Teacher, Too

June 20, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

tonyac, You should consider as well that there are countless fine arts events to which the “elite” among the successful are expected to attend, support — even host. Your children will be at a loss if they don’t have an appreciation or awareness of the arts, even if they are not themselves artists. I don’t think anyone on this blog necessarily advocated the arts as a career path as much as a vital part of a well-rounded education. (Though many of us would not squash a career in the arts if that is what our children wanted.)

By jim d

June 20, 2008 4:34 PM | Link to this

Yeah Tony,

I’ve never been a real artsy person myself but then one need not be to appreciate the gifts that others have.

While I’ve always been a person more of logic, I’ve always subscribed to the following qoute; “The last function of reason is to recognize that there are an infinity of things which surpass it.” —- and the arts do far surpass reason.

By Youre kidding

June 20, 2008 5:03 PM | Link to this

I love the arts. Unfortunately school is not a great place to teach them. Herding students along in the government school is good for art teachers but only inoculates students against real exposure to the arts. My kids got their exposure to the arts Outside of the school classroom. Piano, dance, photography and the Cello were great experiences that continue to this day. School drudgery could not compte.

By HS Teacher, Too

June 20, 2008 5:18 PM | Link to this

FCM — it’s “Faneuil Hall.” :) Hopefully you had some lobstah and chowdah!

Mmm, makes me miss home!

By catlady

June 20, 2008 5:45 PM | Link to this

jim d, I am NOT disagreeing with you on the importance of the arts, but be sure the studies you cite statistically controlled for things like SEs. For example, I know the NELS 88 database well (did my dissertation rsch using it) and I believe you will find that kids who are into the arts (have the “luxury” of taking band, for example) are much more likely to come from high parental ed/SES homes and were more likely to score high anyway based on that. I think there are studies that, using multiple regression or somesuch, control for SES/parental ed/native ability to look at outcomes. Many, however, don’t. Just remember that correlation is not causation. (The old: when the flight attendants serve coffee it seems like the pilot usually hits a rough air patch, therefore we posit that serving coffee causes air turbulance ). (And we get a $2M grant to study it :))

In the NELS data you will find there is a correlation between having books in the home and students going to college. Now, does that mean a parent can go out and buy some books and stack them in the closet and their kid will go to college? ‘Course not. A lot of studies are pretty unsophisticated. Hence, our (former?) governor thinking that supplying a CD for new parents to take home from the hospital would raise IQs, BTW. Hence a lot of things “current” in education cure de jours.

By catlady

June 20, 2008 5:49 PM | Link to this

FCM—did you get to pawk the caw in the Hawvahd Yawd?

By TheBlogger

June 20, 2008 5:53 PM | Link to this

When will the general public realize that schools (public, private, whatever) cannot do EVERYTHING for their child? At some point, the PARENT must make decisions and expose their child to whatever they feel is important….. art, music, softball, badmittin, whatever.

Let the schools focus on the basics first: math, science, English, history. After they are successful in that, then let’s worry about “what else” can be done.

Realize that I am a music person and took piano lesson as a child. I was in the band throughout school, and realized that it was extracurricular and that the basics are what was important.

It is ridiculous for society to continue to ask more and more from schools (public, private, whatever) while parents are doing less and less.

In the meantime, there are schools (public, private, whatever) that specialize in certain areas such as art, music, math, science, etc. If you want your child exposed to something that you feel is important, look into those specialized schools.

By EducatorX3

June 20, 2008 6:24 PM | Link to this

I am so sorry I was not at my computer today! What a topic!

Tony, I am not sure which system you are in, but I hope we have - or will someday - cross paths! I agree with you 100%.

Arts education - music, drama, visual arts - all have been shown time and time again to increase learning and brain function.

In a system where I used to work, we used a music teacher to help teach kids who were behind in other areas. She created great songs using the standards and concepts from the content classes. These students made tremendous progress because they could remember concepts that were taught through the music.

It is a shame that some folks can’t see the value of the arts in schools. Makes me sad for them.

By HomeSchoolMomma

June 20, 2008 7:18 PM | Link to this

The fine arts used to take up far more of a public school’s education than it does today. And yes, I do know what happens in public schools, mine were in them up until a couple of years ago. When I was in middle school, I had a quarter of music, and a quarter of art EVERY YEAR. In high school, we had to take at least one fine arts elective. From early elementary through high school, we went on at least 1-2 field trips a year, almost always involving the arts. My children did have art and music on a regular basis in elementary school. The middle school that ds was at for a bit only offered band and chorus. If you didn’t make the cut, no music appreciation for you. Art was an option that you might get but it was luck of the draw for getting electives. Field trips…. some teams got to go on them, others didn’t. Now that we homeschool, we go on field trips a couple of times a month. Why? Because they are NECESSARY for a well rounded educated mind!!!!!

By FCM

June 20, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this

HS Teach 2 — alas, I am allergic to shell fish…had to make do with some fresh cod.

catlady — did not get over to Harvard. I did stop in Plymouth…it was interesting as my parents had been through on their honeymoon, so I recognized where they did their photo ops.

I have Boston back on my list of places to visit. Waiting until the children can really appreciate it to go up. Maybe in a few summers I can take 2 weeks off and do the Revolutionary high spots. Then another one I can do the War of Northern Aggression—-oops! I mean the Civil War spots. I loved Charleston and Vicksburg. I will eventually take them to Greenfield Village in Michigan too. They enjoy Stone Mountain so much I got us year passes. It’s too hot to go now but soon.

Since y’all teach (hopefully not English or you’ll hate my posts), maybe you will agree my thinking. I figure if I can make the learning come alive they will 1. enjoy it and 2. retain it.

Come to think of it, if I had not had the ability to imagine myself in those time periods, I might never have loved History, thus never visited the areas I mentioned.

By Dennis

June 20, 2008 8:15 PM | Link to this

As long as our state and federal governments continue to think the fine arts are “non essential”, and that it is more important to train our kids to work in the “business world” than to give them a rounded education, our kids will continue to be robbed of a vital part of their educational learning and life.

You don’t have to be a blind conservative not to see it, just an ignorant one to deny it.

By Tony

June 20, 2008 9:35 PM | Link to this

catlady - your correlation example is humorous. Being from Florida, my favorite example goes like this: Increases in shark attacks are proportional to increased sales of ice cream.

By BD

June 20, 2008 9:51 PM | Link to this

Are schools short-changing the arts? YES - As school systems have moved to sight-based management, the budgets for school music and art programs have gone down the drain. I received less budget money for my high school band program this year than I did for a middle school band program ten years ago…we would not have a functioning band program if it were not for our band boosters and fundraising.

How can schools give more attention to the arts? Establish standards and expectations (there are already national standards that Georgia could easily adopt), and fund the positions and the programs. In too many schools throughout our state, the music and arts programs are somewhat of an afterthought, and it shows in the inconsistancies from school to school and system to system.

Excellent schools have great music programs. You would be hard pressed to find a school with high achieving students where there is not a strong arts program in place.

By lovemy4kids

June 21, 2008 12:23 AM | Link to this

Before home schooling, I taught visual arts to 4th - 8th graders in a private school. We had a very small budget and I did buy some supplies myself. However, to teach the fundamentals, it really doesn’t take much money. I consider drawing to be the “mother” skill of all the visual arts. My students had one 45 minute class per week for the entire year. The fourth graders were taught how to draw from life with 3 pencils, an eraser, and a sand pad. By the end of the year, they could competently look at something, draw it, and shade it. They also were able to draw realistic self-portraits after studying the natural proportions of the head. The fifth graders learned formal perspective drawing and color theory. I also taught origami for training in 3D design. The only supplies needed were a square sheet of paper and two hands! The students really loved it. The upper grade students applied what they had previously learned to create mixed media drawings. I also taught them inexpensive printmaking techniques. Every year, all students would have their art displayed in a school art show. Some students also competed with other private schools in a juried Fine Arts competition. Every year, my students took top honors. The school also had weekly music and drama for all students. In my home school, every day is art and music day. We sing many songs to learn basic facts (geography, history, grammar) as well as to enhance our religious devotional time. The children also work on poetry memorization. We all love the visual arts and draw, paint, make cards, or practice origami daily. One of mine had an origami model selected by Origami USA to be included in the Children’s Origami traveling exhibition. It is currently on display in New York and will then travel to schools and public libraries all over the country. We also are using origami to learn about a branch of geometry called Topology. The 3D shapes are easily made using unit origami. They are also beautiful to look at and it certainly keeps them interested in the topic. My 12 year old has taken what he knows about the fundamentals of drawing and color and has applied it to his exploration of computer graphics. He has produced quite impressive animated graphics using Maya. I think he would love to work for Pixar! In my opinion, any quality education program must include the arts!

By FCM

June 21, 2008 7:58 AM | Link to this

love4my kids,

Tell the 12 to keep practicing drawing what he sees. Too draw people and animals as much as possible. At least that is what the Disney and Pixar folks told the crowd when I used to work for them (Disney) and people asked. Good luck to him.

My brother had a hard time learning all that Shakespeare that English teachers like you to recite. Same with the preamble to the US Constitution. He set the words of Shakespeare to music and can still sing it, plus he finally understood the rhythm of poetry.

He loved art. He had items displayed in those competitions love my was talking about. He found that these helped him greatly in dealing with spacial relationships, computers, and now of course in his life as an executive chef…that food had better look good on a plate.

Do they still teach shop in MS and HS?

By WFC

June 21, 2008 8:03 AM | Link to this

The arts enrich our lives and many of my favorite students were the artsy ones even though I don’t have an ounce of artistic ability. Caveats regarding arts in high school:

• Schools have limited resources and increasing demands made upon them.

• Kids who are REALLY into arts will find a way to participate.

• The ability to support one’s self DOES matter! Kids need to know that the employment odds are daunting! Just be real. Same thing I used to tell my basketball players… the NBA only needs 500 players no matter how good you are. Have a fall back position and be ready to do arts “just for fun.”

• Self expression is great but of limited appeal to most other people. It’s kinda like showing pictures of your kids to your friends.

• American culture has never emphasized the arts.

By tonyac

June 21, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

Again, someone else has emphasized my point. WFC got it right. Education of the arts can be done if there is time and money, but resources are slim in education right now and difficult decision must be made. Arts are not a priority for me and my household. They are exposed to them and encouraged to gain knowledge on their own, but I don’t like the crap being a part of a regular class.

I live in North Fulton. There are MANY kids here who have no participation whatsoever in the arts—-they do fine. Want to expose your children to it, great do it as an extracurricular. There is no one in the world that will change my mind on this, because I am apart of a different generation with very different future prospects. We come from different places in logic.

Money can’t buy happiness, but it makes it a lot easier to attain. Knowledge of the arts in the historical context and importance in the classroom is fine, or even apart of another subject. But to declare that ALL kids need to take music or art or dance or whatever makes no sense. I HATED those classes all the way through college because that’s not my thing.

By bone

June 21, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

i teach instrumental music. i have been very involved in local and state music events with my students and as an organizer / coordinator. next year, i have been told i will also be teaching chorus because the funds aren’t available to hire a teacher. curiously, funds were available last year to give every coach in the county a supplement raise. next year, every school in my county will add a position in middle school called INSTRUCTIONAL EXTENSION. this is a certified teaching position which involves pulling students from their connections classes (including fine arts) if they scored low on standardized tests. fine arts are simply not appreciated as they once were; now, i know that i am seen as a number-balancer and babysitter.

By OldSchool

June 21, 2008 11:33 AM | Link to this

FCM, if you mean my first love, Industrial Arts, when you ask about shop still being taught in MS and HS, then sadly, very few programs still exist. Some brainiac decided years ago that Tech Ed was the way to go and lots of schools replaced IA with Tech Ed labs and too many “forgot” to provide funds to keep them updated.

I’m a former Industrial Arts instructor who deeply mourns the passing of that wonderful class offering. It was a natural lead-in to our construction, metals, electronics, and drafting classes. I’ve seen successful IA programs tailored to meet the needs of Sp Ed students and others that emphasized craftsmanship at its highest levels. While our CTAE programs are job-entry level prep programs, IA was nearly all-encompassing. It taught skills every homeowner/consumer needs and provide opportunities to explore a wide range of career options.

In my perfect world, IA and the Arts would be right up there with Academics in importance and Fitness for Life would kick football to the curb.

By TheBlogger

June 21, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

Everyone….

I don’t think that ANYONE says that art or music (or industrial arts) is a waste of time. People see value in it and in learning it. There is no doubt or controversy about that.

The issue here is what is the responsibility of the K-12 schools. In other words, what are the basic things that we as a society expect from our schools (public, private, or whatever).

Do we really want schools to do everything and to be everything? Do we really want schools to teach everything from morals, values, religion, wood shop, metal working, sports/fitness, auto shop, foreign languages, computer programming, art, and music to the ‘basics’ such as math, science, English and history?

If your answer is “yes” then be prepared to pay a heck of a lot more in taxes to fund this and also be prepared for year-round school and 10 hour school days. It will simply take more time and more funding/resources to accomplish all of that, period!

My answer would be “no.” I prefer that schools stick to the ‘basics’ of math, science, English, and history and do a super job of it. Then, allow parents to supplement their child’s education with whatever other classes they choose for their child. Some may feel that art is very important and would send their child to art class. Some may feel that auto shop is very important and would send their child to auto shop class. By doing this the ‘school year’ can be kept rather short and the ‘school day’ may be kept the same or possibly even reduced (as well as the cost to tax payers).

The bottom line here is that if we, as a society, want the schools to do everything, then nothing will be done well and we all will be paying much more in taxes. And, we will only have ourselves to blame.

By Lee

June 21, 2008 1:37 PM | Link to this

Let’s see, I have paid for piano lessons, dance classes, various summer activities including pottery and watercolor. The kids have been involved in community theatre, vacation bible school, and girl scouts.

All the while the schools in my area continue their death spiral prompting me to pay for private school tuition as well.

Hell, they can’t teach math using math. God forbid they try to teach math using music.

Way back when, my elementary school did not have art or PE classes. Band classes started in the 5th grade with the plastic flutes and then they got real instruments starting in the 6th.

Since then, they have added two years to the length of time a student attends school and they graduate knowing less than I did.

Perhaps we should have businessmen, blue collar workers, and professional types such as doctors, accountants, and engineers develop the curriculum for our schools. At least we know what it takes to survive in the real world. Can’t do any worse than our “professional educators” have done.

But then, what would all those out of work “In school suspension” teachers do?

By TheBlogger

June 21, 2008 2:56 PM | Link to this

Lee - You make my point perfectly. We want schools to do everything for everyone and therefore they end up doing nothing.

I want schools to focus just on math, science, English, and history. Let them first succeed in that before requiring them to be parents (teach morals, values), preachers (teach religion), musicians, artists, etc.

Allow parents to choose what is important to them and do that outside of school.

By Tony

June 21, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

Comparing the teaching of art and music to the teaching of religion is a tremendous stretch. Art and music are not a form of religious indoctrination nor do they unduly influence the development or non-deve