Get Schooled

By Ernest

June 18, 2008 8:47 AM | Link to this

IMO, this is an attempt by Kathy Cox to appeal to the ‘Summers Off’ lobby that has been requesting a later start date of the school year. She’s had quite a few ‘missteps’ with regards to policy and test scores thus could use more allies.

My understanding from speaking to a few employees at the state DoE (off the record, of course) is that there is a desire to administer the EOCT’s prior to the winter holidays for fear of ‘knowledge loss’ and lower scores on that test. Starting later would ensure that this test would be given sometime in January. Heck, other rules/laws may need to be changed due to the ‘testing window’ needing adjustment.

Comparing GA to schools in the NE corridor is a ‘red herring’. There are far more dynamics involved with student success in school than when school starts. If we really want to impact the quality of education and student outcomes, we would look to add more days and possibly consider a ‘balanced calendar’.

By WFC

June 18, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

Starting school early allows high school students to complete fall courses and exams before winter break. This replaces the stupid situation in which students returned for 3 or 4 days and take exams after winter break. Starting early makes sense.

By Shogun

June 18, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

There are MANY options for this question - including some that might break away from the tradition.

For example, why couldn’t the school calendar be a trimester system? If we have such a system, we can start school in late August, or maybe even in September, and the first term can end before the holidays. If you time it right, you can start the second term after the New Year. Of course, that means a school year will end in June.

We can also start a new school year in spring. That will put the summer break during the school year. I don’t see why we have to have a 2-month break every year any more. Why can’t we schedule a few school days during the summer so that students can submit their “progress reports” on their homework?

For my family, I actually like the calendar that starts early and have a couple of extra weeks off during the year.

I think a year-around school makes a much more sense educationally.

By HB

June 18, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

As a former south GA student, I think the argument that starting early keeps kids out of school in hot weather is silly. Sure it does, but why is that a good thing? August is absolutely miserable in GA, but May can be quite nice. I went to high school in Brunswick and would have given anything to have most of summer vacation in May-June when I could spend days on the beach or riding my bike all over St. Simons and Jekyll. It’s too hot for that in late-July and August. Schools are air conditioned, and most have air conditioned gyms where kids can play — what better place to be in August? I don’t think a “balanced” calendar is a bad thing either. There is such thing as too long a vacation. Breaks during the year and a 6-to-8-week summer sound nice.

In any case, I see no reason for the state to make this decision — let local systems decide for themselves. The parent groups complaining were outvoted in their local systems and are looking to the state to overide their communities’ wishes.

By JJ

June 18, 2008 10:06 AM | Link to this

My kid only has one more year of school, so it doesn’t really matter to me. However, starting in early August is absurd. Push it back so people can enjoy summer vacations.

When I was in school back in the 70’s, the school year started the Wednesday before Labor Day. And we were out the first of June.

By Jeff

June 18, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

My thoughts on this are known, and if you need a refresher, feel free to look at the Political Insider discussion of this very issue yesterday.

Basically: If everyone switched to a 9on/3off type YRS calendar, EVERYONE would benefit.

The problems arise when multiple systems in an area have multiple calendars. As I said over on Insider, if a daycare can still operate its traditional way because enough systems in its area are on a traditional calendar, it makes no sense for that business to change. If, however, most of the systems in its area are on a YRS calendar, it makes no sense for the business NOT to adapt, as it will see its profits decrease otherwise and may be forced out of business.

BTW: Side point to that that I didn’t make on Insider yesterday because I just now thought about it:

What happened when most systems swtiched to late July/early August start - Memorial Weekend finish? Did daycare providers and summer jobs not adapt? (And I KNOW that they did…)

By jim d

June 18, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

Here’s a silly thought.

Milti-track Year round school.

Combine that with a three day school week shake well and bake at 325 deg. F for about three years and watch schools improve with less burden to taxpayers.

By SallyB

June 18, 2008 10:38 AM | Link to this

Many schools in the USA, even some in GA. have gone to the “balanced” /”year round”/”9 on 3 off” schedule that Jeff mentions. I have spoken with may students and teachers who are on this schedule and all have only good things to say. ( I’m sure there must be some solid evidence of its success or failure to improve academics.] IMO, Jeff is quite right when he says, “The problems arise when multiple systems in an area have multiple calendars. If Ms. Cox really wants to try something that could possibly make a difference, she might try pushing for this type of schedule.

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

When should school start…? Hmmm…not really sure, but I do believe it should be up to the local schools, and not the state (and the state is doing this to better crunch numbers, not to make any effective changes to the curriculum OR the test - that should be questioned!).

As the mom of a high schooler (one year left!), I absolutely love that he finishes before Christmas break - EOCTs, finals and all. I think that’s important. My daughter was able to do joint enrollment her senior year - also very important!!

180 days is 180 days - Georgia is pretty hot May, June, July, and August - my kids spent August in the air conditioning - even the pool was too hot in the heat of the day.

I like the idea of 9/3 YRS, or a more balanced calendar - I like the idea of having breaks when others don’t. I can’t see systems bucking tradition, though.

When I was a kid in NE, we started the Wednesday after Labor Day and got out around the third week of June - we had a week at Christmas, one in February and one in April. We also had snow days built in - they were dates in June marked in red - every time we had a snow day, we knew we had to go one more day in June - one of the red days.

My niece and nephews in Massachusetts and New Hampshire went back to school around Labor Day - they are all getting out this week.

Just some thoughts - peace, y’all!

By em

June 18, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

What does it matter when schools begin? A 180 days is a 180 days no matter if you begin in August or October. Test scores and graduation rates will come once schools begin concentrating more on content. Maybe Kathy Cox and the Georgia Department of Education should be “selling” content rigor to the parents of students in this State rather than worrying about reporting data. Talk about “lies, damn lies, and statistics.” My experience this past year with the GPS in Social Studies and the relevant EOCT’s was that it’s business as usual for parents and students.

By Tony

June 18, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

School calendars should be decided by local boards of education. The testing twist being applied for this current proposal is nothing more than spin. It is an attempt to entice superintendents to delay the start of school based of revised AYP determinations. This is nothing more than blackmail. That is, if you go along with delaying the start of school you will be able to use the revised AYP results and might not have sanctions! When’s the next governor’s race?

In my opinion, the data could be evaluated and in place prior to August 1.

By jim d

June 18, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

Anyone interested in learning more about YRE may visit this site

By jim d

June 18, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

Tony,

Unfortunately as much as I would like to agree, I find myself looking back at many local decisions that were made to benefit a few, and those few were seldom the children.

By FCM

June 18, 2008 11:24 AM | Link to this

I vote we go back to a QUARTERLY system starting later (Tuesday after Labor Day)….The semester system bites…18 weeks of any subject then being tested for the whole thing….whatever.

Later date, uniforms, semesters….who do I lobby? Oh and less teacher ‘workdays’…where the teachers tell me they have hair appointments.

By Tony

June 18, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

jim d, what makes you think a statewide decision would be any better?

By local teacher

June 18, 2008 11:30 AM | Link to this

I think Ernest has really hit this nail on the head. For some parents starting school in September, like it was when they grew up, is their top educational concern. It is great to read so many responses that see past arguments for a later start, when there are strong benefits to our high school students with the current schedule. I’ve even seen people try to claim other states do better on the SATs because of their school start date. As for studies that compare states, if you don’t adjust for important factors like socioeconomic level and parents’ educational level, these studies don’t tell you much. I live in Cobb County and test scores tend to correspond with average home price in each school’s zone.

By Blind Homer

June 18, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

More smoke and mirrors from K Cox. We just need better teachers and the test scores will improve. Dump the winter break and about half of the teachers days and start later and end around June 1.

By Grandfather

June 18, 2008 11:37 AM | Link to this

My question why do we have a State of Georgia Dept of Education? Why do we have the same on the Federal level? The Constitution mandates that the Federal government do only these things: Maintain and process of Naturalization, Coin money, investigate and punish counterfeiting,Establlish and maintain a Postal System, Promote the progress of Science and maintain a patent office, creat courts of lesser standing to the Supreme Court, Punish Piracy, Raise and support Armies and a Navy and regulate the same, organize and maintain a Militia and to organize the Federal level of goverenment to manage and maintain all of the items listed previously. NO WHERE DOES IT SAY THE STATES AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SHALL DEVELOP AND MAINTAIN A SYSTEM OF EDUCATION. This was left to the local communities as it should be today. The state and federal arms of government should never never never be involved in the education of our children. Lets take it to the extreme…Suppost the government wanted to introduce and institute a Communistic form of government…knowing that it couldn’t be done in one feld swoop what better way to do it than to introduce it gradually through the school system and instill in children that this is the correct way to govern the populus. Think about it it would only take 20 years or so to have every child educated down the road of whatever form of government they wanted to make. I say go back to how the founding fathers intended it to be in the first place….local schools governed locally or locally support home schooling as it used to be.

By Clyde

June 18, 2008 11:40 AM | Link to this

Alater start, preferably after Labor day would benefit the economy, aprticularly the tourism industry. It also apppears to result in better academic performance in other parts of the country. Go back to a quarterly system, fewer teacher work days, get out early June less energy cost in budget.

By jim d

June 18, 2008 11:44 AM | Link to this

You could be right Tony,

One could only hope that by going to a larger “Good ol Boy system” that things would improve.

I guess, truth be known, that I just take issue with a handful of folks, that are supposed to be representing a constituency, and who have repeatedly demonstrated they have a bad habit of forgetting that little fact once they control a budget that may exceed $1.5 billion a year.

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2008 11:46 AM | Link to this

FCM - in my county, only the HSs are on semester - MS and ES are still quarterly. I far, far, far prefer semester for the high schoolers, and I feel like it prepares them better for college - my son’s HS does offer modified block, though, and some classes for an entire year. Many of those are lower-level freshman and sophomore classes, easing them into the more rigorous schedule later on. The EOCT only count for 15% of their grade, so it’s not a make or break situation for most (and it usually benefitted my son who was a great test-taker but a lousy homework do-er, lol). One of my students from India told me their grade is based on three tests - 2 mid-semester tests and a final - that’s it - no homework grade, no classwork grade - just the tests.

I would love to see uniforms - I just got back from South America where I visted several schools, and most of the public school students wear uniforms - it’s not a big deal to them. Of course their parents aren’t concerned about their developing their “individuality” (and the right to dress just like everyone else in their clique/group of friends - reminds me of the old ad “just another pathetic sheep following the herd”).

As far as teacher wokdays being used for hair appointments - you’re definitely in a different county than I - ours schedules so much “professional development” that scheduling fluff is next to impossible. I’m not a fan of too many teacher workdays, staff development days or those awful half-days. They are usually a waste of time. However - food for thought - wouldn’t you prefer you child’s teacher to take care of something like a doctor’s appointment (not hair, OMG!) on a workday instead of leaving your child in the dubious hands of a sub?

I must admit though, I would love one day (or even a half day) per quarter solely for end of quarter and grading paperwork - submitting grades, updating retention and honor roll paper work, etc. A girl can dream…

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

Blind Homer, playing devil’s advocate here, I would argue that we need better students. Do you really believe that teachers in East Cobb are that much better than those in South Fulton?

Now, I will admit, that many teachers get hired by whoever will take them out of college - schools with high turnover, usually. Many of those teachers will cut their teeth at the challenging school and move to a better school when the time is right. Why is school A more challenging than school B? It could be poor administration, low-level, unmotivated students, or challenging paretns - or a combination of all three! Then you have to ask yourself, of the ones that stay, are they wonderful and dedicated or are they slackers who couldn’t hack it anywhere else? How do you propose to fix that?

I got my gifted endorsement and my ESOL endorsement. Now I work with the brightest and the hardest-working, generally speaking. I have better results than I did before. Why are the results better? Is it me or the kids? I ask myself this, yet I don’t have an answer.

Clyde, how would the later start help tourism, exactly? If we end later, then we start later, eating into summer on the other end. And, for me personally, I’d rather spend my tourist dollars in state in June (Tybee is very nice then) rather than August (I’m going somewhere out of state where it’s cooler). My system has fewer than 5 workdays embedded in the year (most are during pre or postplanning, which don’t affect the kids) and wouldn’t make much difference in the length of the year, because state law still says we need to end on a Friday. Most ES and MS schools are on quarterly systems - I prefer HS to be on semester so advanced students can take benefit of joint enrollment.

By Michael

June 18, 2008 12:31 PM | Link to this

If high school seniors want start college in January they will not be able to do this because of having to take exams after the start of the college semester. It seems to me like Cathy Cox and the rest of the idiots at the doe are trying to show they are being proactive when they can’t in fact run a doe. She’s doing a great job of covering up her ineffectiveness as a leader and appearing more and more like a useless politician. Maybe the federal and state governments should stay out of it and allow local school boards to stay in charge of their system since most of the burden of running the show comes from local taxes.

By LAURENCE

June 18, 2008 12:48 PM | Link to this

SCHOOL DONT NEED TO START UNTIL THEY MAKE ENGLISH EASIER FOR DECENT BLACK KIDS TO LEARN SO THEY CAN READ GOOD TOO LIKE THEM WHITE KIDS! EVERBODY SUPPOSED TO BE EQUAL IN THIS COUNTRY! THEY NEED TO GET THEM RACIAL BIASES OUT OF THEM TESTS TOO!

By Blind Homer

June 18, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

luvs2 - No one can make chicken salad out of chicken…well you get it. It’s obvious school systems like Clayton and APS are hopeless due to poor students with intellectually-challenged, unmotivated parents. But that doesn’t explain why we continue to rank near the bottom in all state-to-state comparisons.

By FCM

June 18, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

Luvs2Teach—I do believe in getting the teachers all the resources/learning that they can. I also have several issues with the school system…If a doctor appointment can be fit in then thats fine. However I was told by 2 different teachers they could not do a conference on the scheduled conference day b/c they had 1-dr. appt. that afternoon—my comment to you on this is yes it should be instead of a sub but if the day is set for conferences you don’t schedule the dr appt then tell the parent we cannot discuss your child. 2- Hair appt. Seriously they were getting their hair done for something that evening. As to should they take a ‘sick day’ or ‘personal day’ to do these things? Absolutely! I have to take sick or personal time to go to the conference.

This last year we were fortunate enough to have the kind of teachers I want to clone. They were opposite ends of the spectrum in approach, age, years in place, etc. However, I know I will miss them both greatly as my children move forward. It was the best year we have ever had and both children grew so much. For one thing both teachers accepted my children for the individuals they are and worked with me to reach them…yes, we did make them conform to school rules, but they were not forced to be the automatons the teachers prior had attempted to make them.

I did quarters in HS. The shorter learning periods and rotation of teachers seemed to work well. We were exposed to more classes, more teaching styles, and the verying schedules all did prepare us for the ‘real world’ (the one that exists outside academia).

The half days are pain…they allow the school to count it as a school day but often end up being a ‘play day’ at least in the elementary/middle school levels.

I can back your idea of a ‘paper work day’. When my mother taught (20+ years) they used teacher workdays for this purpose…these days the school system seems to fill the teacher workday full of other things.

This may sound at odds with appreciating that the teachers see my child’s individuality. (I just believe that no two children learn the same way.) However, I do not think ‘expressing themselves’ by wearing Camp Rock shirts or Designer clothes lines helps kids. Put them in uniforms (which you agreed with) and be done with it.

By FCM

June 18, 2008 1:17 PM | Link to this

I realize I am probably feeding a bottom feeder (troll):

Make English easier to learn? Kick those kids booty and make them learn it just like the ‘white’ (and educated black, latino, asian, indian, etc) parents do their kids.

We are not supposed to be equal the OPPORTUNITY to do BETTER is supposed to be equal. It says you can PERSUE happiness not that you are assured it. This country was founded by wealthy land owners (not all of whom were white) and was to benefit other land owners…heard of indentured servitude? Go learn English then read a HISTORY book.

By Kim

June 18, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

After serving on our system calendar committee for a few years, I realized that high school testing drove the calendar. With only a few days to play around with here and there, it was a huge waste of my time to serve on the committee. My idea then, and still today, is that school should always start the day after Labor Day statewide. Yes, the testing windows would have to change. Sports would have to adjust statewide…..it’s too hot for football in August anyway. Georgia, GET OUT OF THE BOX! As a 25 year veteran elementary school teacher, I am amazed at how illogical so many educational decisions are these days. The kids are in danger of having a heat stroke on those buses in August, not to mention the high cost of air-conditioning the schools. My opinions have nothing at all to do with tourism. I am thinking of the students. As always…..testing remains the tail that wags the dog in education. It just doesn’t make sense to me. P.S….. I don’t make my hair appointments on teacher work days. I sit in my classroom and watch soaps while I do my nails and eat bon-bons!!

By jim d

June 18, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

FCM,

Accordingly we should not be supporting public education then. Schools should still be run by the church. However, if we in fact are going to attempt to justify public education in its current form, we must support educating all.

By Kathy

June 18, 2008 1:33 PM | Link to this

Please Kathy Cox!!!! What else can we change (or should I say SCREW UP)to accomodate TESTING?!?!?!? It disgusts me that these politicians (yes, she used to be a teacher but she has morphed into a clueless politician) continue to make testing the center of everything….now it’s the focus of the school calendar. Beam me up Scotty!!!

By Tired of your kids

June 18, 2008 1:39 PM | Link to this

School should never stop… children should stay in school every day from 6Am till 6PM with limited time allowed outside. They should attend school 364 days a year, allowing 1 day a year for inoculations and shots. They should not be seen nor heard by anyone BUT their parents till they graduate, at which time they are required to go to college or a trade school.

One can wish can’t one?

By Gwinnett Educator

June 18, 2008 1:40 PM | Link to this

My work days are spent running from one of the building to another to get to a meeting. Then we run and grab lunch and come back to meet AND eat (as a grade level) before running to the next meeting.

I truly appreciate the dialogue today (and yesterday) for I have had the opportunity to hear more than one side to this matter. At first, I was all about the late start (still prefer it) but I had no idea of how it would affect the high school students,etc.

I still think that if the entire state (not saying it is right or wrong) were to get on the same schedule, everyone would adapt.

By We love to vacation

June 18, 2008 2:29 PM | Link to this

I feel that the students should start school after Labor day, and get out in early June….I know that we have always had 9/3 in VA and the system works great.

By A Parent

June 18, 2008 2:30 PM | Link to this

Have you ever been on a hot bus for an hour sitting 3 to a seat in August?. Pretty miserable! I think a later date would be better. The Schools are over crowded and the buses are too. Middle and High school students are especially miserable due to their size.

By HS Teacher Too

June 18, 2008 2:38 PM | Link to this

Gwinnett Educator,

In the past, I have mentioned that I grew up in NY. In NY, at least at the high school level, are state tests (“Regents exams”) for certain courses, much like Georgia’s (b.s.) EOCTs. The state sets the testing dates in NY, and there are not “windows” as there are here. The tests are given at specific times on specific dates, and everyone in the state takes the same test at the same time (with obvious exceptions for conflicts, which the State tries to minimize). However, the school systems set their calendars locally. This seems like a compromise between what we have now and what some folks are proposing. It doesn’t have to be all-or-nothing, the way people seem to feel; but if the State were to step in and set firm testing dates, local systems could back into their calendars however they wanted to, so long as they accomodated the testing dates.

By HS Teacher Too

June 18, 2008 2:59 PM | Link to this

GE — last post wasn’t meant as an attack on you, but re-reading it I thought it might come off as such. My apologies.

Also, having been a Gwinnett educator myself, I feel your pain about the “work” days! We used to have meetings where we’d get handouts and then an administrator would say, “I don’t want to sit here and read this to you line-by-line,” and the would proceed to do exactly that for 90 minutes!

By FCM

June 18, 2008 3:02 PM | Link to this

jim d—my point is to make the kids step up to the plate not dumb down the education even more (as Lawrence proposed). Although I do utilize the PS available to my children, I moved into the area I live in to get the school I wanted. I looked long and hard at the schools, chose a good one, and moved into a much smaller (more expensive) house then I could have gotten in school that performed less well. If I could afford it my children would be in private school. Unfortunately, since their dad has little to do (and stops paying his CS frequently) with the kids, and my salary only goes far (not to mention having been laid off recently) PS is the only option for me. Someone could say ‘should have thought of that before you had kids.” However few parents know that they will be laid off 10 years after a child is born, or that the dad will decide to leave without notice and not take care of the kid, or perhaps a spouse dies, or whatever.

By Jeff

June 18, 2008 3:07 PM | Link to this

Parent:

Looking at the 2008 year, going 9on/3off and counting out 180 days with no exceptions gives this calendar: (caveat being I’m starting on the first Monday on or after Jan 1):

School starts: Jan 7

First 9 week end: March 7

First break begin: March 10

First break end: March 28

Second 9 week start: March 31

Second 9 week end: May 30

Second break begin: June 2

Second break end: June 20

Third 9 weeks begin: June 23

Third 9 weeks end: August 22

Third break begin: August 25

Third break end: Sept 12

Fourth 9 week begin: Sept 15

School end: Nov 14

Break @ end of year = 7 weeks

2009 school year begin: Jan 5, 2009

As I’ve said, I fail to see how this would be a NEGATIVE thing. It INCREASES family vacation times, AS WELL AS diversifies them. (For example, you could go see Vermont in early or late fall as the leaves turn - something you WOULD NOT get to do in the summer - or you can go to Disney World in the spring or winter when central FL isn’t so hot that you can barely stand to be outside, among MANY other things!)

By posterchild

June 18, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

I rarely agree with much of what you propose on this blog, but your schedule is something I would absolutely love to have as a teacher. Unfortunately, parents in DeKalb are too concerned that if school isn’t in session, no one can watch their kids. I’m so tired of the daycare argument.

By Cammi317

June 18, 2008 3:41 PM | Link to this

The Monday after Labor Day. That’s the way it’s done up north where I grew up. I am not saying it will help to increase Georgia’s ratings, but what I will say is when we went back to school we felt as if summer was officially over and not as if summer had been interrupted. When you guys go back to school down here, the pools are still open!! I wonder how many kids are thinking about that in class the first 2 - 3 weeks of school and looking forward to the Labor Day weekend.

By DeKalb Voter

June 18, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

I say do exactly the OPPOSITE of what the Clayton County Schools are planning to do and you can’t go wrong.

By Mom4

June 18, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

If someone else has already said this, sorry. In response to HB’s 9:50am comment, just to set the record straight, the elementary & middle schools my children attend in Gwinnett County do not have air conditioning, unless you call a fan that blows around hot air a/c. It is miserable in August.

By Mom4

June 18, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

If someone else has already said this, sorry. In response to HB’s 9:50am comment, just to set the record straight, the elementary & middle schools my children attend in Gwinnett County do not have air conditioning, unless you call a fan that blows around hot air a/c. It is miserable in August.

By Mom4

June 18, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

If someone else has already said this, sorry. In response to HB’s 9:50am comment, just to set the record straight, the elementary & middle schools my children attend in Gwinnett County do not have air conditioning, unless you call a fan that blows around hot air a/c. It is miserable in August.

By Mom4

June 18, 2008 3:58 PM | Link to this

If someone else has already said this, sorry. In response to HB’s 9:50am comment, just to set the record straight, the elementary & middle schools my children attend in Gwinnett County do not have air conditioning, unless you call a fan that blows around hot air a/c. It is miserable in August.

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

FCM - well, I, too, would have a huge issue with being told I can’t have a conference with my child’s teacher during conference week (!!!) because they had another appointment, no matter what it is. Those are the teachers that make it tougher for the rest of us to get respect. Ugh.

I, too, had quarter/semesters in HS - some classes rotated after one quarter, some after a semester, and some went all year. But, since I went to school in NE, with the later start, it was very difficult for me to do joint enrollment classes my senior year - my schedule was insane.

I will admit, I am biased because of the joint-enrollment thing. But I also think we hold kids back in this country who are ready to take that next step. When I was in South America, some countries only have 3 years for high school, rather than 4 - I know many seniors who are basically in a holding pattern that last year - that time could be better spent getting a head start on college work - particularly at schools with limited AP opportunities.

Half days are ridiculous and a waste of time, IMHO. Teaching is pretty much lost - the kids aren’t focused on anything but getting out early. What staff development gets done is usually ineffective. Two exceptions: conference week and testing. I like conference week half days (although I would prefer to schedule a conference DAY - marked on the calendar well in advance so parents can take it off early) although I always stay late at least one day to accomodate working parents as best I can. Then for testing, a half day to test and then go home would be great - their brains are mush and their bodies are antsy post-test.

Homer - lol, good point. Actually, if you look at a lot of different rankings (lies, damn lies, and statistics, ha ha), there are many where Georgia is not last - not even in the bottom ten. Now there are many where we are bottom half, below average, I’ll grant you that, but the situation is not nearly as dire as some would have you believe.

A large part of our problem is socioeconomics - the poor urban kids and the poor rural kids of every ethnicity. Many of our schools, particularly in the metro area, outperform the national average. Now, don’t think that I don’t believe there isn’t room for improvement - there most certainly is. And teacher quality is an issue - I know because I work with one or two slackers, and my kids had a couple through the years. however, the majority of my kids’ teachers and the majority of people I work with are very good - dedicated, knowledgable, etc.

I feel strongly though that teacher quality is not the only or even the most important issue. For me, passing students on, who do not have the requisite skills to be able to do grade level work is our biggest sin (not knowledge - lacking knowledge I can work with - I can fill in the gaps missing in science - I can’t teach an 8th grader to read - at least not well while simultaneously trying to teach science).

This debate caused me to google (school year length and student achievement, I think is what I typed) and I was surprised to find a good bit of research that shows extending the school year was not enough - more time on task was not enough. What was key was time spent actively learning. Kids who already knew the info were not learning. Kids for whom the material was beyond their reading comprehension level were not learning (makes you rethink ability grouping, doesn’t it - even if you are a master differentiator). It also makes you question all the lost days - half days, assemblies, etc.

By Jeff

June 18, 2008 4:06 PM | Link to this

L2T:

My main problem with the current schedule is that we are a MUCH more fluid society now and are no longer agri-based. The current schedule was built around an agri-based society, and it worked for them, no doubt. But we live in a post-Information age (21st century) society, and we are still using an Agriculture/Industrial age (19th century and earlier) approach to scheduling our schools.

This makes sense HOW????

By Gwinnett Educator

June 18, 2008 4:21 PM | Link to this

HS2..all is well. I didn’t take your post to be that way. I understand what you are saying also. Now that I think about it, the windows do aggravate me. I honestly think it would be better for the state (or whomever) to say..TEST DATES ARE AS FOLLOWS. Then we can plan around that.

I promise you, I’ve gone through the same thing of being “read” to. It is so frustrating.

By cammi342

June 18, 2008 4:23 PM | Link to this

can i become one of gunny yawn’s peronalities in his “GetSchooled” pantheon of boring personalities? Laura, please, let me occasionally post on Gunny’s board. Please. Perhaps he won’t come crying to you. I will bring my own tractor to the sandbox. I have at least 10 minutes every other week to look at these blithering blogs. But, Gunny is so sage and insightful on this thread. I WANT TO PLAY IN THE SANDBOX!!! (that was a SHOUT) I am now so forlorn. No excitement in my life if I cannot play in Laura’s Toyhouse — and play by Gunny’s, er, I mean, Laura’s rules.

By mom4

June 18, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

OOPS!! That should have been the GYMS don’t have a/c in Gwinnett elementary & middle schools.

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

Jeff, it doesn’t really make sense, outside of the “that’s the way it’s always been done argument” - which is weak at best - I actually like the idea of YRS, and I agree, businesses will adapt - as will families.

I’m just saying, working within the confines of what we have now, having the HS’s schedules aligned with colleges make sense and works for me and my kids.

You’ve read enough of my posts to know that as far as time, grade level, calendars, schedules and such go, I don’t find much of what we do particularly effective. I would love to see more time fluidity - if a 2nd grader can complete the 2nd grade curriculum in two quarters, why keep her there for two more? Let her advance. Just because two kids are 6 doesn’t mean they are at the same level of developmental readiness for school. If we had a YRS/rolling admissions sort of schedule (like many colleges) we could better met the needs of more of our stakeholders, IMHO.

By Netta

June 18, 2008 4:32 PM | Link to this

School should start on the Tuesday after Labor Day in September, and it should end the lst Friday in June. This should be statewide.

By HB

June 18, 2008 4:42 PM | Link to this

Mom4, that’s terrible, and ceratinly a good reason for that local district to start later, although while better than August, I doubt May is a picnic either without a/c. Sounds miserable.

As for what Cammi317 said earlier about the pools still being open in August leaving kids to dream of summertime — aren’t pools usually open before school ends too? Don’t students dream of escaping to enjoy the weather weeks before school lets out? We’re not talking about the northern Memorial Day to Labor Day summer here. We swam early April to late September, although many years we had to take a break in late-July and August when the pool water reached 90 degrees.

I lived in New England for a few years, and summer is truly a celebration. I would not suggest an earlier start date or year-round schedule there. Spring leaves and flowers begin to peek out in early to mid-May. Summer is a brief period when it’s almost warm enough for swimming (if you don’t mind 60-degree water) and the sun shines on 80-degree days. Then fall arrives around August 25th, and the first snow falls just before Halloween. Warm weather in Georgia spans a much longer time allowing “summer” acitivities to begin as early as mid-April. No reason to follow a northern calendar.

By jim d

June 18, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Yepper, school should start when I call Kathy and Stuart and tell’em: “Kids, y’all get her started!” A shout out to the boys and girls at Columbia High School.

By luvs2teach

June 18, 2008 4:58 PM | Link to this

Because I was curious, I looked at a calendar and figured out if we could start the Tuesday after Labor Day and end the first week of June - well, we can…but we have to be willing to give up some other days we (parents AND teachers) have learned to take for granted.

Starting September 2nd, with no breaks in September or October, we would have 44 days.

Then, I kept November 4 off (major election - lots of people in the schools- major safety issue), but I had us going until the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, a day many systems give off (I always had it as a half day growing up in NE). That gives us 17 days in November, 61 total.

December, I had us going right until 12/24 (again, something we did up north, and another half day). That gives us 18 days in December, total 79, 11 short of finishing a semester. Prepare to study over Christmas break, kids - maybe even do a project!

I have us going back on Friday January 2nd. Monday the 19th is off, giving us 20 days for a total of 99 (remember, the magic number is 180).

Forget President’s Day in February, and we get 20 days - total 119. (Up north we had a week off here).

March - likewise very easy, no holidays - 22(!) days, total 141.

April - I was generous, leaving spring break alone as the first full week(up north we alwasy had it the third week) of April. 17 days - total 158.

May - keeping Memorial Day as a day off gives us 20 days for a toal of 178 - 2 shy of our needed 180!

June - so we only need to go 2 days, bringing us to Tuesday, June 2nd, but state law says we need to end on a Friday, so we need to go to the 5th. Maybe we can have back Christmas Eve, January 2nd, and President’s Day.

Seeing it spelled out, does that change anyone’s mind, either for or against it now?

By KickBreedersToTheCurb

June 18, 2008 5:17 PM | Link to this

Go back to the old calendar of late August through the end of May. That way, we childfree folks can get our wonderfully quiet and peaceful travel times back the way they used to be in the fall, winter, and spring. When the rugrats and their handlers have too much time off during the whole year, the atmosphere at the seashore and in the mountains is ruined, along with the higher hotel rates and long lines that you and your obnoxious, ill-mannered rugrats bring on.

Summers are the worst time to travel if you’re childfree; the breeders do not try to control over their yard-apes. You stay outta my travel timeframes and I will be sure to stay outta yours.

By FCM

June 18, 2008 6:01 PM | Link to this

I am opposed to having the Wed before Thanksgiving off. I also think that school should end no earlier than the Friday before Christmas during ‘Winter Break’. Can we just go back to claiming it as Christmas or Holiday? That means this year we would be out on Dec 19 last year we were out on that same date but it was a Wed. We still get 2 weeks in Dec. I have no issue going in to school in June.

HB I think you hit something….going back to school in the FALL (post Labor Day) makes sense…school should start in the fall and end in the summer…not start in the summer and end in the spring. I remember plaid and sweaters being back to school wear…these days I am looking at which shorts meet the school dress code…(and those cute summer dresses don’t meet code since they have the wrong straps).

By jim d

June 18, 2008 6:06 PM | Link to this

Actually Luv,

growing up we started on the thursday before labor day. Now I know why! I always wondered about that.

By Penguinmom

June 18, 2008 6:56 PM | Link to this

Aren’t there some states in the country that have higher scores and educational marks than we do in Georgia? Oh, wait, almost ALL of the other states are higher than we are.

How about we find one of the top ten states, see what schedule they have and use that. So what if it makes the kids come back to take their exams? If that’s the case, it seems to work okay for those other states.

Starting in early August takes away not only August but also the end of July because you have to think about getting ready for school. Going into the first week of June was never a problem when we were kids or in other states so it shouldn’t be a problem now. Joint enrollment, summer jobs, college acceptance etc will all adjust as they obviously have for other places.

By Voice of Reason

June 18, 2008 7:22 PM | Link to this

School should begin TOMORROW! I HATE it when my neighbor’s brats are out of school during the summer.

By FCM

June 18, 2008 8:18 PM | Link to this

We had joint enrollment when I was in HS too. Of course College/University was on the Quarter system then too. I think they need to go back to it for the same reasons. Semester system is too long…especially if you have a boring topic and a rotten monotoned professor.

By HS Teacher

June 18, 2008 8:57 PM | Link to this

I think we should continue to begin school in early August. Few students do any Reading or Math during the summer and when school starts, they have regressed about 2-3 months. So, the first 5-6 weeks of school are REVIEW from last year for many school systems.

There is nothing wrong with Clayton Co Schools—it is the BOE and Central Office—plus that new Supt. I should know-I’ve worked in CCPS for years.

If you want to know how to fix schools, why don’t you ask the experts? TEACHERS; we know how to fix things, but no one listens. All the people telling us what to do have no experience teaching—so what do they know?

Kathy Cox—remember Six Flags was one of those behind a start date after Labor Day—all for money. It is bad enough to have a Farmer’s Schedule for the school year. Going year ‘round would be much better.

By DonA

June 18, 2008 9:15 PM | Link to this

Once again the emphasis in Ms Cox’ s office is test scores…… How about giving the schools the 40 million that Sonny cut back?

By Tony

June 18, 2008 9:56 PM | Link to this

The kind of schedule Jeff proposed is an excellent idea. This would give educators more opportunities to work with kids who need extra help. We could do that in the 3 weeks off. Also, we could schedule in more days for teachers and pay them more. Our job is actually year-round anyway.

It really peeves me that you guys in the world of big business want our schools to do better at educating our children then turn right around and prevent us educators from adjusting the calendar. To all you people who think the “old” way is best, you are living in your own dream world. As Jeff said, we are no longer an agrarian society. Kids learn all the time and it would be very easy for us to have school throughout the year.

Let’s examine some of the priorities that showed in today’s discussion. I saw several votes for tourism. How is this going to enhance our kids’ education? Is spinning round and round at Six Flags going to make kids smarter? I don’t think so. There were votes for summertime fun. OK. I like having relaxation time, but 2 1/2 months is a bit much. Especially since most of our kids get stuck in some form of childcare because parents work. Another set of posters indicated that’s the way they do it up north. Granted, we lost that war once, but the school calendar is not the cause of higher student achievement in the Northeastern US. Of course, Mrs. Cox’s reasons for changing the calendar are the worst reasons. They have absolutely no connection to student achievement.

Calendars should be decided by local boards of education to meet the needs of the community. Let’s hear it for year-round-school.

By Clarice

June 18, 2008 9:59 PM | Link to this

I truly believe that the State needs to go to a year round(9 by 3) school. If parents would get off their high horses about summer vacation and utilize the time that they would have, I believe that they would see more benefit all around. The children, teachers, etc. would fair better in school and you would still be able to enjoy your time with your children more frequently.

By grim

June 18, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this

While the schedule proposed by Jeff is a good idea, it wreaks havoc at the high school level with athletics and extracurricular. You’d have to either get GHSA to go along with the breaks and not schedule games during the weeks off, or parents would be “stuck” at home because their star athlete/thespian/musician has practice and/or performances and/or games. Just a thought.

By TheBlogger

June 18, 2008 11:32 PM | Link to this

How’s this for an idea….

Have school year round, but only 4 days a week. Students can get promoted to the next level as soon as they pass a test to confirm that they have learned content and have passed the required courses. We can still have holidays to include spring break and we could include a nice fall break as well.

And, if parents want to take their kids out of school for a couple of months in the summer, they are allowed to. But, they must also realize that this means that their child will miss out on the education during that time.

I know that this is thinking ‘outside of the box’, but hey - could it get any worse?

By blueja

June 19, 2008 12:55 AM | Link to this

As for the farmer’s calendar.. Maybe if the kids were out cropping tobacco and picking cotton all summer, they would show a bit more effort when school started.

By Save huge on energy costs

June 19, 2008 1:01 AM | Link to this

A bunch of other states start the day after Labor Day. Give the kids a real summer. And save my taxpayer money from having to pay for all that air conditioning in early August!!

By w. nunnally

June 19, 2008 4:59 AM | Link to this

People who want the school year to start in early August sit in an air conditioned office. People who drive the busses have to drive in 120-130 degree temperatures. This is dangerous both for the students and the drivers..

By Steve

June 19, 2008 5:04 AM | Link to this

Another world shattering topic loaded with expert advice. Why not 4 days a week and extend the day - saves money. More governmental control? The school uniforms thing? Do your research. Majority of school unifom studies citing successes were paid for by companies that make school uniforms. Kathy Cox - enuff said. She has already shown her qualities many times - what an embarrassment. Why not something other than education? Today’s newspapers - NOAA has to cut research on climate change due to high fuel prices. No comments or doesn’t that fit into your expertise? What about the weights and measures folks? Gas stations have lowered prices but are not selling a full gallon. Three nearby stations shutdown after getting caught two or more times. No comments here? How about hybrid cars are not so environmentally friendly as their batteries are not recycled and pollute severly. Get something new other than rehashing the same old topics in education.

By Jeff

June 19, 2008 5:35 AM | Link to this

Regarding GHSA:

It too would adapt if enough schools adopted a YRS approach.

The biggest problem - and the ONLY reason this Libertarian is arguing for state level control, at least initially - is that for YRS to be effective, it has to happen EVERYWHERE within an area simultaneously. Then, even the state-level organizations such as GHSA and others will be FORCED to adapt.

Of course, most of you know I have two brothers. These two brothers were each involved on football/wrestling teams that either made it to the playoffs (football) or won a few state titles (wrestling).

I point to my brothers in this case to point out the following: Even during the ‘normal’ summer, there isn’t a single week they can be gone and NOT miss a practice. Of course, the coaches make allowances for this. The same would be done with YRS.

By Kate

June 19, 2008 6:54 AM | Link to this

Until they fix the real problems in the schools, when it starts and ends is not the problem. Education needs a total overhaul and we can start by going back to basics. Hire good quality teachers, leave politics out of the schools, install strick behavior rules and stick to them, quit catering to illegals and gangs. School is not a prision and they need to remove the trouble makers firt off. Then teach with the brain. Teach out of books, give credit for test scores and not unused hall passes. School has become a joke and one wonders why our kids are not passing tests?

Its time to kick out big government everywhere and start with the schools. When the kids excell, then talk about starting and stopping times. First fix the education system.

By jim d

June 19, 2008 7:19 AM | Link to this

Kate,

I’m afraid our schools have become maintenance-free ——- which means they can’t be fixed.

By bigguy

June 19, 2008 7:50 AM | Link to this

Why don’t we try to find a successful school system and model their policies, including their calendar?

By clarice

June 19, 2008 7:52 AM | Link to this

Grim - Part of the problem is that “EVERYTHING” seems to evolve around athletics and extra curricular activities instead of what school should be doing and that is TEACHING.
Kate - One of the reasons that we have to put up with all the hassles from the “bad” students is because of the lovely AYP. When students are sent to jail, suspended, etc. it goes on your schools AYP record and they may not make AYP. That is the goal of all schools to make AYP. Getting the government and politics out of things that they truly have no knowledge of would be wonderful. I would love to see President Bush run a school and have it make AYP.

By Debby

June 19, 2008 8:05 AM | Link to this

For all the people complaining that the summer recess is too short, I totally disagree. I work in the public library and those same people are in there two weeks after school gets out complaining how bored their kids are.

And don’t tell me how these kids “play out” in the summer. They’re inside in the air conditioning, just like everyone else. Two months off is long enough at one time.

Let them get extra breaks throughout the school year. They’ll appreciate it more then, and they’ll be more likely to retain what they have learned.

By FCM

June 19, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

Oh who was that principal….Morgan Freeman played him in the movie….Joe something….We need to clone him and let him clean up the schools…of course his tactics would not work today….the parents would lynch him. Shame, shame, shame on the parents.

I can go for YRS. I thought the topic was when to start and keep the 9 month year. Truthfully in a farmer culture kids were out in the fall and spring for planting/harvesting…in the summer for first harvest/planting…early winter (butchering and tree tapping)….however they had to keep up with their studies during that time….their parents had them at the table doing their studies along with the chores…and the testing didn’t stop for ‘review’ when they got back to class.

Raise the bar/expectations and make the kids meet it…This continuing dumbing down to meet the kids/parents is assinine.

Dave Slater (Wheeler High School) said it best “Strive to lift yourself out of the muck of mediocrity.”

By Jeff

June 19, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

FCM:

You are thinking of Joe Clark.

If we had just ONE administrator like him in every school and just ONE teacher like Jaime Escalante in every school, we would be the best in the world again.

By FCM

June 19, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Jeff is Escalante the guy that taught the class advance math? My Dad thinks all HS Students should be required to see that movie every Semester.

By grim

June 19, 2008 11:34 PM | Link to this

Clarice: In my school, the focus IS on academics. If they don’t pass their classes, they don’t participate. I do teach a subject that is by many considered “extra curricular”, however, I teach my students more about life and growing up that most “academic” teachers ever do. I do, however, have to keep in mind my students’ health and safety when it’s over 100 degrees mid July and we’re out on a field.

As for a four day week, you still have to consider coaches, directors, and sponsors-unlike the “academic teacher” who will have the day to themselves, these teachers will not have “the day off”-and will be working. Buses will still be in use, campus buildings will still be used, money will still be spent. We all don’t fit into the “year round” or “4 day week” mold.

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