By Jeff

June 5, 2008 8:59 AM | Link to this

Wanna learn a TRADE? Go to community college.

Wanna learn a PROFESSION? Go to a 4yr, at LEAST.

Now, as far as which is better? Eh, there I’m willing to say it depends on the person. But something to remember here: If you like inside work, the better paying jobs are in the PROFESSIONS. If you like outside work, the better paying jobs are in the TRADES.

Again, which one makes MORE money? Debateable. Taking averages, I’d say the PROFESSIONS do. Taking specifics, I know some people personally who work in various TRADES and make more money that I EVER will.

By jimbo

June 5, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

It depends on the profession. There are lot of people in the higher echelons of the technology field packing a GED.

I’ve gotten far, very far, on my GED. Now, with management opportunities looming in my future, I’m going to school at a two year to keep costs down before making a run on a four year college. At the end of my effort I’ll have a four year degree without the debt.

Then I get to decide on a master’s program. I’ll probably incur some debt from that one..

By Lee

June 5, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

If you live near one, a two year community college is one of the best bargains around. With HOPE, the cost is basically $0.

Provided the school is a public college in the University System of Ga and you stay within the proscribed fields of study, you can go to a two year, get an Associates Degree, and then transfer to a public four year and everything should transfer without a hitch.

You go to an out of state or private college, and you may lose some credits. Be careful. Research your options.

One other thing, given the number of students who go off to college and lose the HOPE, due in a large part to their immaturity, two years at the local community college may be just what they need.

By jim d

June 5, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

It really is a shame that in this day and time students are offered these options at the high school level and basically end up just “doin time” till graduation when they can then move on.

Bottom line, if a community college works for you—-Buy it!

By catlady

June 5, 2008 11:34 AM | Link to this

Be sure you have the vocabulary down correctly: Georgia has very few true community colleges. it has technical schools, and 2 year colleges, but only a couple of community colleges (2 year programs, transfer programs, and tech schools combined). Dalton College in NW GA is one, and there is one coastal GA, maybe one other in S Ga. The tech schools are trying to position themselves to be community colleges by getting COC level accreditation from SACS. COE level courses from DTAE schools do not transfer to university system schools.

So, if you are talking about 2 year colleges (not community colleges), many of the students are working adults or traditional-age, lower SES students. Nothing wrong with that. You can check and see the mix at each school, which varies widely. You can also find out the successful transfer rates from 2 year to the various four year schools. In some cases, student grades go UP (counterintuitive) when they leave the 2 year college and go to the baccalaureate level schools. All this information is available from the university system or the individual 2 year college.

Other states do not have the same divisions of colleges that Ga does—they truly DO have a community college system than incorporates technical areas (see FL, for example).

By OldSchool

June 5, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

catlady, I don’t think they are called Technical Schools anymore. Maybe a few are but most are Technical Colleges and almost all offer credit courses transferable to 4 year college/universities. There are still some 2 year colleges (down here we’ve got Bainbridge College).

And Jeff, most community colleges are stepping stones to 4 year institutions. Technical Colleges (in Georgia) are great places to learn skills needed for a wide variety of jobs/careers be they called “trades” or “professions” for less money and greater earning potential than some of the degree programs offered by universities.

We’ve got a whole lot of gray area jobs out there that benefit from both types of education: real estate, insurance, car dealerships, restaurants, tourism, childcare, even medical related.

I’ve had several 4 year university (architecture and engineering) students come to me for AutoCAD training because their institutions expected them to be competent in that skill and they had little or no experience. A semester or two at a tech college would have been a wise and economical investment.

By the way, the animators and graphic designers, the residential designers and engineering technicians (and others)that I know who learned their “trade” at a technical college and are very gainfully employed now DO NOT WORK OUTSIDE.

By catlady

June 5, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

Oldschool: you may know more than I on this. In N. Ga there are technical colleges, but their English 1101 is NOT transferable to a Kennesaw State unless the tech college has COC, rather than COE accreditation—there is no state required articulation agreement. Heck, it wasn’t until recently (12-14 yrs ago?) that there was any statewide articulation between STATE public colleges and universities! There has to be clear delineation, for one thing, because of HOPE. Otherwise folks would use the HOPE grant to go to a technical college and get free credit and then transfer to a Univ system school. (Before they plugged the hole, it was called “Backdoor HOPe around here, and you could get it by going to the technical college part at Dalton and then transfer into the 2 year transfer division, for example, all without having to have the incoming B average).

However, changes come rapidly. Perhaps someone currently involved with either of the levels could comment.

However, I stick by my definition of community college, which is a pretty standard national definition. What Laura was talking about was two-year colleges, and what the Atlanta Tech article was talking about was technical college. While the lines may be blurring in Georgia, the two year colleges are still rarely community colleges. Both have important places in providing educational opportunity. I would like to see a merger between DTAE and USG, myself, but there is no much turf guarding it will not happen here.

Best wishes to you for the important work you do and your strong advocacy for technical education. With a PhD, I wish I had a technical degree to use for a second career!

By Michelle

June 5, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

I attended New York City Technical College in (1994); graduated with an Associates in Secretarial Science and then transfered to John Jay College of Criminal Justice to earn a Bachelors Degree in Legal Studies (1999). I think 2 year programs are an excellent choice for those who are unsure and uncertain of whether they are ready for the 4 year college. It is great that you can get an education and a good paying job with just a community college.

By JJ

June 5, 2008 3:06 PM | Link to this

I am trying to steer my 17 year old to a community college, such as Perimeter. She is fighting me on this. I believe a community college would allow her to get her “required” courses out of the way, then hit a 2 or 4 year college for her degree.

She is under the impression that employers would rather see a fancy college name on her resume, than say Gainesville College. I told her that was not the case, but 17 year olds seem to know EVERYTHING (Eye roll)……..

By John

June 5, 2008 3:18 PM | Link to this

I went to Perimeter. Nothing wrong with it. I think it’s a great place to start and then transfer somewhere else later. The teachers are far more involved with the students than the classes with 100 students at a larger university offers.

Fancy college names don’t really matter. Your performance and how well you handle an interview are what gets you the job. Your 17-year-old has the typical ignorant view that all kids at that age have.

By TC Professional

June 5, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

@ Jeff:

The prejudice your comment displays is the main reason so many kids avoid the technical colleges. It also displays your ignorance of the variety of programs now offered at our state technical colleges.

I seriously doubt that any of the graduates from out nursing, accounting, education, marketing, physical therapy or visual communication programs would consider any of those “just a trade.” Most of them get to work indoors, too. I guess that’s just those underachievers acting “uppity” though.

For anyone reading the comments who may be debating 2yr vs. 4yr - Don’t take your career advice from someone who uses the word “wanna.”

By rptrcub

June 5, 2008 3:28 PM | Link to this

If you want a four-year degree, but do not have the financial means, or the academics, to get into a four-year, by all means, go to a two-year college (Georgia Perimeter, Georgia Highlands, Gordon College, Gainesville College, Atlanta Metropolitan) in the University System of Georgia first then transfer to a four-year school. Your credits will transfer easier than with the technical colleges which are under a different entity than the university system: the Georgia Department of Technical and Adult Education. If you’re wanting to learn a trade, as said before by others, go to a technical college.

Congratulations to ATC for its recognition, but with the way Georgia’s state higher education system is set up, calling it a “community college” misses the mark of what the institution is. The closest thing Georgia has to community colleges like in other states are the USG’s two-year schools. And I’m not knocking the DTAE system or saying that the USG and the DTAE shouldn’t be merged. Let’s just be accurate here.

By TC Professional

June 5, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

Where do you all get your information? Have you even checked anything you’re saying?

Most (not all, but most) technical colleges have general education programs which are purposefully designed to meet the core requirements of the 4yr institutions.

Additionally, most TCs have articulation agreements with the 4yr colleges in the USG so that all of those courses transfer.

This is NOT a competition folks. The TSCG and the USG are working together to educate our residents.

By Jeff

June 5, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

TC:

Actually, there really was no prejudice there. YES, the courses are typically ACADEMICALLY easier than those of a 4 yr, but not even I would want to tackle very many of them!

Quite honestly: You will not get your foor in the door of an accounting, software engineering, or education firm without a 4yr degree. Even in nursing, with just a 2yr you will never make as much as you could with a 4yr.

PT and visual communications I know are also majors at 4yr schools, but have no knowledge of hiring practices in the field, so you may or may not be correct there.

But in any case, you’ve named FIVE indoor jobs. I can name TWENTY outdoor jobs without hardly thinking about it.

The opposite is true for 4yr schools. I can think of probably 5 outside jobs and HUNDREDS of inside jobs that require 4 yr degrees.

Again, no prejudice on my end at all. You honestly have to know as much about a car to be a mechanic as I do about programming languages in my job. The same can be said about aircraft mechanics, HVAC technicians, cosmetologists, and all the rest.

Oh, and if I was so against Tech schools, why would I be actively persuing them as a route back into the college-level professor work I so love?

By Jeff

June 5, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

TC:

I have a brother at Highlands, and my mom has actively worked at Kennesaw as both an official Registrar as well as a department-level screener of credits.

TRUST ME: Back when Highlands was known as Floyd, not very much transferred to KSU at ALL - not even core.

Now, things aren’t MUCH better. More of core transfers, but not much of anything major-specific.

By WestCoastisthebestcoast

June 5, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

Wow,

The south is really behind… For years here in California people have attended 4-year Universities such as Santa Monica College, Pasadena City College etc. and if you have a 3.5 or higher you are guaranteed admission into UCLA & USC. I know many people who have went this route and save tons of money doing so.

Also community college in California are so much cheaper than in GA. The classes are about 20-25 per credit hour per semester. Anyone can enroll and just take a class for the fun of it. GA doesn’t have near the caliber of Community College which offer continuing education at great prices like California does.

IT’s really sad because I’m sure plenty of adults would love to take any type of class that enriches them here without having to shell out 500-800 for one class when you can take 5 classes for that amount in ONE SEMESTER at a good community college in California…

Shamefull indeed.

By OC'er

June 5, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

West Coast, I too went to college in S. Calif. Although my grades were probably not good enough to get straight into a four-year university, the main reason I did the CC route first was financial. Many people did that at the time, as it’s much cheaper to pay the CC fees for the first two years.

I went on to the four-year school for my last two years and got my Bachelor’s Degree. I’m doing fine in my career.

By TC Professional

June 5, 2008 4:12 PM | Link to this

@ Jeff -

Sorry to come off combative, but statements like yours REALLY irk me. The TCs have come a long way from the days of being trade schools and should be recognized as such.

As to getting your foot in the door (or not) with a 2yr degree - You need to inform our placement coordinators about that. They’ve been under the mistaken assumption that they’ve been placing over 85% of our graduates. Again, it must be the underachievers acting uppity.

I think you missed the point on the indoors/outdoors comment. If you’re basing career worthiness on whether you work indoors or outdoors there are some archaeologists, etc… who would probably differ with you.

I would also like for you to straighten things out with the USG for us as well. As almost all the USG schools (except Valdosta) are entered into articulation agreements for our general education courses. Which means that they have not only reviewed our curriculum, but also had a hand in designing it. It’s called a CDOC (just FYI). It’s not major specific, but that’s why it’s called general education all that “other, pesky stuff” like english and math and such. They seem to think that thing really ARE that much better. Please advise them of their error.

Finally, with your perspective, please don’t come teach here. We want people who understand and support what we’re trying to accomplish.

By jim d

June 5, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

Gee jeff,

My kid has gone off to a rather high priced public school in another state and may well end up with an outside job even though he get’s a degree. A job that pays spit—one that may well demand he defend you and your future children. How come he can’t do that in a two year program? No my friend, there are many jobs, some with prestige and some without, that require a four year degree. I imagine I could name 100 within the armed services alone.

By OldStudentYoungHeart

June 5, 2008 4:47 PM | Link to this

As a nontraditional student currently in a 4-year institution (senior year) and if I had it to do over again, I would definitely go to a 2-year college to knock out the first two years. You will save a whole lot of money for basically the same classes, especially since a couple of the Gen-Ed courses I’ve taken have been so dumbed down my niece in high school could’ve passed them with flying colors. Not knocking high schoolers, just saying that sometimes you don’t get what you pay for.

It must be difficult to convince kids on the way to college to take this route, but it will be well worth it when they don’t have as much accumulated debt when they do graduate. Speaking from personal experience, a 2-year college is worth looking into.

Good luck, all.

By Suzanna

June 5, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this

One of the first things I noticed upon arrival at UGA for graduate school in 1993 was the dearth of true community colleges in Georgia. Having completed an associate’s degree in pre-engineering at a Community college in Mississippi, I was much better prepared for a University engineering education. I would advise, as I have in the past, any student to go to a community college prior to a four year university. (For the record, I hold both bachelor and master’s degrees in engineering.)

By jim d

June 5, 2008 5:50 PM | Link to this

So suzy,

You’d pass on the opportunity to attend ranked the No. 1 best value among Southern colleges and is the No. 2 best public institution in the South among those offering up to a master’s degree. In the 2008 rankings, is also:No. 5 among the best public and private universities in the South offering up to a master’s degree but few, if any, doctoral programs. The college was No. 7 last year. No. 38 among the nation’s best undergraduate engineering programs at schools where the highest degree is a bachelor’s or master’s.

By catlady

June 5, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

Please note that I specified that the technical college courses will be considered for transfer if they are SACS COC accredited. Many are not—they have SACS COE accreditation. Things like “Business Math” will not substitute for Math 1110 (or whatever the number) if you decide to get that BS in accounting, for example.

CA and FL,for example, have MUCh tighter articulation agreements to protect their students. They also have true community colleges.

Among the University System schools, there is an articulation agreement that if you finish the first two years of basic studies at a two year (notice the name) college, it transfers in as the two years at 4 year institutions. Specific USGa institutions can have other requirements that have to be met for admittance to a specific program, but they are required to count those first two years of credit. If you transfer from a (public) two year to a (public) four year BEFORE you have the AA agree, there is not guaranteed articulation. So, if you start at a public two year college, you’d be best advised to finish there or plan your program very carefully with the help of transfer counselors. If you go to a technical institution, you need to get everything in writing and check with the 4 year institution you plan to transfer to in order to be SURE you are earning transfer-eligible credit before you pay your money and do the work.

All students should understand fully what type of degree program they are in (BA/BS/AB, AA, AS, AAS, diploma, certificate, minicertificate) and carefully weigh what their ultimate plans are to be sure they are not doing work that will have to be redone. I have seen too many students who lost months of work and hundreds of dollars because they did not understand how the system works (or doesn’t). Some of these students gave up on their dreams because of this.

Public or private, technical, two year, four year, and proprietary institutions ALL can play a roll in meeting students’ needs but students need to be aware of how things work—they are considered adults who have to look out for themselves instead of assuming it will work out. Many students do not have a family with experience in negotiating postsecondary education to advise them.

By Suzanna

June 5, 2008 7:42 PM | Link to this

to jim d: 1) my name is not Suzy, it is Suzanna. 2) I completed a associate’s and bachelor’s degree, both in Mississippi. I MADE money with grants and scholarships at the community college, which helped me pay for my bachelor’s degree.
3) I graduated with a degree in Biological Engineering from one of the top engineering schools in the nation, and in the South, Mississippi State University, which has a 99.5% or better acceptance rate for biological engineering students to Medical School or Graduate School. 4) I graduated with a Master’s degree in Biological Engineering, again being PAID to complete the degree. 5) I spent a year at UGA in their Bio. Engineering Ph.D. program before realizing I was not a researcher at heart. 6) I didn’t “pass” on attending anywehere.

By TC Professional

June 5, 2008 8:02 PM | Link to this

You tell ‘em Suzie-Q! ;)

By jim d

June 5, 2008 9:52 PM | Link to this

Suze,

From time to time the federal government or some nationally recognized academic study group will issue rankings on one or another important cultural aspect of American life—education, per capita income, culture, doctors per capita, literacy and so on and so on. When those studies are issued Arkansans run and hide because they know where they’ll be ranked—49th. Thence the oft-intoned lament, “Thank God for Mississippi.”

By OldSchool

June 5, 2008 10:10 PM | Link to this

jim dear, you’ve stepped on this Arkansan’s toes now. Although I live happily in Georgia, I still love my home state. In fact, I have a deep respect for most folks in all our states for no other reason than, like me, they are simply working to have happy, productive lives. Unlike other bloggers, I choose NOT to disparage those whose circumstances differ from mine.

And I think your oft quoted remark is just mean but I recognize your right to blog it.

By Suzanna

June 6, 2008 1:43 AM | Link to this

to jim d and others, it is a simple concept. My name is Suzanna, not SuzeQ, Suzy, or other permutations. There are a very few people in my life allowed to use an abbreviated form of my name, and you are not among those people. I would appreciate the respect of using my previously stated preferred name. If those of you that can’t understand this simple concept are a product of schools outside of Mississippi, you do not represent your various states very well. I personally thank God for Mississippi, as I was born there, grew up there, and made sure I got an excellent education there. Getting an excellent education is not dependent on your state of residence, it is dependent on your state of mind. Having experienced the excellence of Mississippi’s very well developed community college system, it was quite surprising to see how far ahead of Georgia Mississippi actually is, in terms of developing and sustaining an excellent community college system, that communicates with the four year colleges and universities consistently. The community colleges ensure the academic courses they offer are transferable with no loss of credit, without placing this burden on the students. You may make any sly digs at my home state you wish, but I can assure you, my high school education and college education from Mississippi approximately 20 years ago is much better than what I am seeing in Georgia today. When I see people who don’t know the difference in roll versus role, I am not encouraged.

By Pax Christi

June 6, 2008 4:01 AM | Link to this

I teach at a community college in Illinois, rated one of the best in the U.S. We are situated close to a nationally ranked at the top research university. Many of our students concurrently enroll in both our college and the university. We suspect that given the significant increases in tuition, many more traditional university students will begin gracing our doorsteps. However, many of these same students are under the mistaken impression that our courses are academically easier. This is usually not the case since we have articulation agreements with the universities throughout the state. So I am asking Jeff who I belive made this statement to not say this. Too many times I encounter students who believe that we are not as academically rigorous; they think that we should operate as a high school. What everyone needs to understand is that community colleges are the best bargain and are community oriented and not based on some elitist sensibility that only a certain anointed few should be able to attend college. This works in our favor, but also against us sometimes, but in the end, it gives access to everyone sincerely interested in attaining a higher level of education. Not only do we offer lower tuition, but manageable teacher-student ratios where students get an enormous amount of assistance if they ask, as well as a broad array of supplemental services intended to aid the students in achieving academic and career success.

By Yeppers

June 6, 2008 5:45 AM | Link to this

Hey Jeff, I started with an AS in Nursing a few years back, then finished a BSN a few months back. I worked indoors the whole time, amazing. If you think there is that much difference in ASN vs BSN pay, you’re sadly mistaken.

MSN or nurse practitioner is another story.

By Jeff

June 6, 2008 5:45 AM | Link to this

Pax Christi and TC:

As I’ve said, I have a bro who has been at Highlands for a while, and many of his friends are there as well.

I’ve SEEN the coursework with my own two eyes, and no, it isn’t ANYWHERE NEAR as rigorous as even that which you will encounter at Kennesaw State - much less one of the research institutions.

Taking courses at a 2yr is the exact same thing as taking KSU’s Programming 1 and 2 and then transferring out to Tech. You go where you know the classes are easier to get your foot in the door at the place you REALLY want to be. (And I know SEVERAL people - including one of only two people equal to me when we were in those two classes together - who have done just that.)

Again, no prejudice here. We NEED mechanics, HVAC techs, medical transcriptionists, and the like. So I URGE people to go to Tech schools and 2 yr schools! I’ll wind up paying YOU for a lot of stuff!

But don’t think you’re in a PROFESSION when you are practicing a TRADE.

BTW: TC: I checked with my wife - a graduate of both Darton and Georgia SouthWestern who now is going into her 5th year of teaching - and you ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT get a job teaching with only a 2yr degree. If your school is telling students otherwise, I’m surprised you haven’t been sued yet. You see, there’s this pesky little law called No Child Left Behind which mandates that all teachers be highly qualified, and in GA at least, highly qualified means a BS or higher, among other things.

By EducatorX3

June 6, 2008 7:28 AM | Link to this

Jeff, Once again you are making generalizations! What you “see with your own eyes” from Highlands, does not mean that the same can be said of all 2 year schools - or for that matter - about all the courses at Highlands.

Gainesville State College has always been one of the most well-respected units in the university system. It has been said that if you could pass the English 101 (now 1101) course at Gainesville, you could pass it anywhere. As a non-traditional student, I found the cost and convenience of Gainesville to be ideal. (and I have three degrees beyond the one I earned there, so I was well prepared for the rigor of a regional university and a research institution!)

And as for the 2 year education degree - I have a 4-year preschool teacher in my school with a 2 year degree. No, she can’t teach in the K-5 school, but she can teach. It serves as an income while she completes the 4 year program now offered at Gainesville State.

BTW, I also have a certificate from a technical college that allowed me to work in accounting for several years to help pay for my education. Would you consider being an accounting manager for a CPA a trade?

Makes me think…interior design - trade or profession? professional hair dresser? landscape design? photography? graphic artist? dental assistant? computer science? business management? All of these are programs offered at Gwinnett Technical College.

One definition of profession is “one’s occupation or career,” seems to me that you are splitting hairs to differentiate between “trade” and “profession.”

By jim d

June 6, 2008 7:29 AM | Link to this

Dear By Suzanna,

re: my 9:52 PM yesterday

It truly is unfortunate that along with all of the excellent education you recieved in MS., you failed to gain a sense of humor.

As for my 5:50 post.

My comments were directed at your comment “I would advise, as I have in the past, any student to go to a community college prior to a four year university.”

The fact is that many students are ready for a 4 year program upon graduation from high school and do not need to enter a two year program. The fact that this is the route you took doesn’t mean that it is the right path for ANY STUDENT Their futures are bright, their options are wide and varied and each student must evaluate those options honestly and make their choices , be it a 2 year or 4 year program, a technical school, a jr. college, community college, or perhaps simply the school of hard knocks.

Oh, one last thing. Better get used to having a 7 character handle on these blogs abreviated.

By jim d

June 6, 2008 8:10 AM | Link to this

OldSchool,

Many a Rhodes scholar has come from both Arkansas and MS.

Actually, Mississippi is an all around beautifiul state with great food and the best river boat gambling anywhere. So yes I do “Thank God for Mississippi”

As for your home state let me say it hosts some of the clearest, coldest, world reknowned fishing lakes in the world.(i like to fish) Places like Bull Shoals, Dardanelle in the Ozarks, in the Ouachita Mountains—Hamilton, and Nimrod and, to the south White Oak, and Chicot. Some of the prettiest country in this nation

hagd

By OldSchool

June 6, 2008 8:13 AM | Link to this

Jeff, you are still wrong. “BTW: TC: I checked with my wife - a graduate of both Darton and Georgia SouthWestern who now is going into her 5th year of teaching - and you ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT get a job teaching with only a 2yr degree.” Many CTAE instructors across the state are hired out of industry and are teaching in many of our high schools. They are indeed “highly qualified” in their areas of expertise and, while some do go on to complete 4 year degrees, others choose not to…for various reasons. School systems are allowed a certain percentage of teachers teaching out of field as well.

Try painting your pictures with a narrower brush using strokes that bring out factual detail instead of broad generalizations. Simply put, none of us…including you…are experts on everything…

…except maybe for jim dear. (my version of humor!)

By jim d

June 6, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this

Laura,

Then of course their are the “trade schools” operating as apprenticeship programs which allow students to learn a trade while working hands on (drawing a salary). But they don’t seem to get the same coverage as your community colleges, even though they produce better trained tradesmen.—— Wonder why that is?

By Jeff

June 6, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this

EX3:

TRY getting a job as a programmer with just an AS.

Unless you happen to have a few industry certifications IN ADDITION TO that AS, you AINT getting the job, at least if you’re going up against a guy with a BS and holding everything else equal.

Granted, if you have an AS and you’re the only person applying for the job, or the other guy doesn’t have a degree at all, you’re probably going to get it.

This aint the dot com boom anymore, and not just anyone can walk in and get a programming job. (Though with the right degree - a BS or higher -, it aint that hard to find a job if you’re willing to move. I actually landed my current one within a month of beginning my job search.)

By jim d

June 6, 2008 8:38 AM | Link to this

Old school,

Thats not funny—-True—-but not funny! :-)

By jim d

June 6, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

My dear Suzanna, Pax Christi, Catlady, Jeff, Old School, Yeppers [actually, these “folk” are me too]: I am trying to be so patient, kind, reflective, and indulgent with you morons, but my patience is wearing thin. I am about to get very cantankerous, and when I do get this way, I can become very vicious. My nickname on these boards (when I am not using Mom3Boys, Lisa B, anonymously anonymous, BABY, Nan, DJR, et al.) is simply Vidalia Vicious. I go from arm-chaired, cardigan-sweater-wearing, pipe-smoking, kind and cerebral “jim d” to let’s see how we can destroy someone on this internet “Vidalia Vicious”. Perhaps I shouldn’t have picked the fights which I picked, but I am so smart and I thought that no one would figure out my ways (especially since they are so incompresensible to people who have a modicum of loyalty within their bones). I need to attend my first ABA (Anonymous Bloggers Anonymous) meeting. I need help. I am brilliant but I can be very vicious and actually attack my friends behind their back. I don’t really know what is wrong with me, besides the “rank and file” jealousy which often takes over.

Kimberly and Laura, I am great at schmoozing and charming women. So, at least I know that I have you two fooled. This nice to know.

By EducatorX3

June 6, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I am trying to find where I said anything about getting a programing job with an AS! Your response directly to me has nothing to do with my post.

However, I do have a close friend who has been a programmer and is now a network engineer for a major IT contractor. He has no degree, lots of industry certificates, and 30 years of experience. I am betting he makes more money than you and I combined!

And, maybe it is just my preference, but I wouldn’t hire anyone who used “ain’t” in an email that was supposed to be defending one’s education or demonstrating one’s expertise.

Old School…you are so right. Many folks are teaching with permits rather than certificates - not only the some of the best in CTAE, but some music fields and native language speakers - and they are considered highly qualified.

By Jeff

June 6, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

EX3:

This isn’t exactly a formal (or even work-related) email. This is a fairly informal community blog, and therefore perfect diction is not required, nor is formal diction.

In emails within my company or to potential employers, you see a much more formalized vocabulary and style from me.

In an internet blog forum, not so much.

Then again, much of the ideas I put forth here I wouldn’t mention at work, as they don’t belong there. My company pays me a salary to build programs, and the only thing they have a right to be concerned about is my view on how programs should be written. In that particular arena, both my boss and I happen to agree, even though I know from talking to him informally that politically he is much closer to either you or jimd.

One of the greatest things about being OUT of education is that my employer no longer cares about things that are none of his business, meaning ANYTHING I choose to do between 4:30pm and 8:30am that does not directly affect how I perform between 8:30am and 4:30pm.

Now if only education would wisen up to that fact….

By Suzanna

June 6, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Dear jim d, as I rarely frequent blogs, it doesn’t really matter to me how those that do behave. I simply commented on the story about community colleges in Georgia because, to be honest, in my opinion, Georgia simply doesn’t have them. It has technical colleges and 2 year colleges, but a true community college will meld the two into an educational experience to FIT the community it is serving.
As for my sense of humor, it serves me quite well, when someone or something is actually funny. Calling someone a moron just because they don’t agree with your sense of humor is absurd. By the way, I didn’t have to acquire a sense of humor during my education, I was born with a very strong sense of humor. Anyone knowing me and my family can attest to that. You can’t survive my family without a sense of humor. However, to return to the original point of Laura’s article, true community colleges give excellent value for the cost, as well as providing a rigorous education to those attending, and support to students that struggle that generally can NOT be found easily at a four-year college.

By TC Professional

June 6, 2008 11:48 AM | Link to this

@ Jeff -

You’re really beginning to just look foolish now.

You’re basing your argument on the fact that you have a brother and “friends” at GHC? Wow. So much experience, it’s a wonder you’re not on the Board of Regents. I have CDOC reports, Curriculum design documents and articulation agreements to back up our Gen Ed program.

You keep saying “no prejudice…” but your statements speak otherwise. It’s clear you’re just an intellectual snob. I’ve known many people just like you. You consider anything less than a 4yr degree beneath your definition of “higher education.” - most likely because you have a 4yr degree.

ALL adult education is worthwhile and anyone who pursues better education should be treated with the respect that is due. Most of our students are working toward a better life. They don’t have mommy and daddy funding a four year party. Your dismissal of their efforts as “just a trade” frankly makes me sick.

To address your final point - I never stated that anyone could get a teaching job with a 2yr degree. Nor did I ever say that we tell students that. We offer “Early Childhood Education” which opens up parapro and other opportunities. It can also be used as a stepping stone to the 4yr degrees.

@ Suzanna - I was just trying to be cute - playing off the comment. No disrespect intended. But in the same vein, this is a blog. Names get shortened all the time. “Why so serious?”

By Suzanna

June 6, 2008 12:01 PM | Link to this

TC Professional: My name is serious to me because for as long as I can remember, I’ve had people mis-pronouncing and misspelling it. I am almost forty and “Suzy” doesn’t fit. Messing up a name like “Suzanna” would make sense if you don’t know the English language. However, it isn’t as if I have one of these “throw the letters in the air and what lands is the kid’s name” type of names. There are no hyphens nor apostrophes, nor is there an “e” at the end. I can understand mistakes with the “alphabet soup” names.

By Jeff

June 6, 2008 12:13 PM | Link to this

TC:

Care to provide the dates on those agreements? Because my data for 2000 - 2005 is pretty dang solid. Admiteddly, after that it is much more anecdotal.

As far as your claims in education:

You specifically said “I seriously doubt that any of the graduates from out nursing, accounting, education, marketing, physical therapy or visual communication programs…”

Now, I’ve BEEN through an education program at a 4 yr school, and TRUST me, a 2 yr school stands NO CHANCE of preparing you for that. (We won’t get into my disagreements over how those programs should be run, as that is another blog.)

As far as ‘all adult education being worthwhile’:

A current 2 yr degree is little better than the HS diploma from a few short decades ago. It has about the same power. That is a sad statement, but an all too true one. Correspondingly, ALL degrees have also shifted downward, including the mighty PhD. Give me a guy that just got his PhD from Harvard vs one of my profs who got his back in the early 60s from that school, and I can garauntee you that the new guy won’t be able to tie my prof’s (metaphorical) shoes, much less keep up with him in the field.

Again, sad statement, but all too true.

By TC Professional

June 6, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

@ Jeff -

As a SACS COC accredited institution we review CDOCs, Curriculum Reviews and Articulations yearly. So to answer your question… 2008. And what exactly is “your data?” Seeing your brother’s syllabus? Looking at your syllabus from ENG 101 @ KSU in 2000? Really?

I see no discrepancy in my statements about our education program. Obviously our 2yr program is not as rigorous as a full 4yr Elementary Education degree. Nor is it intended to be.

As far as you believing a 2yr degree is “little better” than a HSD… 1.) Again - you intellectual snob! 2.) according to the surveys by the US DOL, BLS, Census Bureau, etc… there is at least an $8K bump with a 2yr degree. According to the 2007 GA DOL wage survey, it is an $11K bump here in GA. Apparently your 4yr degree didn’t teach you about researching your statements.

Most importantly, what you consider “of little value” is of significant value to our students. $11K may not mean much to you, but to these students, it’s a whole different world.

I would really love to dismiss your comments as simple trolling, but it really does sound as though you believe what you’re saying. If you want to peer down condescendingly from your cheeto stained computer chair at the 2 yr students - fine, do so. But as long as our programs can lift our students into better lives and set them towards even further learning opportunities - then YES! - ALL adult education IS worthwhile.

You intellectual snob!

By sable

June 6, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

Just so you all will know… The CTAE no longer exists in GA. Two weeks ago Governor Perdue signed a bill creating the Techinical College System of Georgia. TCSG. And, many of these schools carry the necessary acreditation to make their courses tranferable to the University System of Georgia.

Now, carry on your discussion….

By jim d

June 6, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Ms. Suzanna,

Please be advised that the moron post was not mine but that of our friendly neighborhood blog troll.

As for the four year programs that don’t support struggling students. Hmm, the one I mentioned as being the #1 bargin for education in the south, DOES provide students a great deal of support. Over 98% of their teachers actually hold PHD’s, classes aren’t taught by an assistant, and the prof’s are availaable 24/7. Class sizes are kept small by only having a student body of around 3300 students and discipline is a priority! I honestly do not believe that a two year program for any students enrolling here would be of any benefit. So the bottom line is that yes some students may benefit from a two year program but as many might not. I personally wouldn’t suggest that everyone take the same path.

By catlady

June 6, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this

If you want to find out about one measure of rigor (GPA), there are several 2 year colleges whose students’ GPAs go UP when the transfer to “easier?” research institutions. I recall students transferring from Dalton College to Ga Tech actually saw their GPAs go UP after being at Tech. Now, that might mean they are more invested in their GPA when they get into their major at GT, or it MIGHT mean the courses at the two year college were no pushovers, as has been stated earlier. Check it out at the Univ System of Ga or the local college’s dept of Institutional Reasearch to verify.

One thing I like about the two year colleges that I have been involved with professionally is their seemingly more caring attitude toward students. That might be a function of size, however, rather than Associates vs. Baccalaureate mission.

By catlady

June 9, 2008 11:07 AM | Link to this

One piece of national data: students who go to two year colleges are less likely to finish a four year degree, EVEN CONTROLLING STATISTICALLY FOR ABILITY, AGE, PARENTAL SES, WORKING STATUS.