Get Schooled

By jim d

May 27, 2008 8:34 AM | Link to this

High stakes testing fly’s in the face of documented research.

Research tells us that fear and humiliation are not the strongest motivators for struggling students. Too many will simply give up on school, largely because they feel like the school system has already given up on them. If we are to avoid creating an ever-growing underclass of high school dropouts and intensifying existing racial inequalities, our leaders need to champion strategies that will produce genuine academic gains, not simply artificially boost test scores.

By TheBlogger

May 27, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this

I just don’t buy the “students don’t test well” excuse. Part of education is to learn how to take a test. Every one of us is tested in our lives one way or another on a regular basis. Using that as an excuse just doesn’t hold water.

For that child that “doesn’t test well,” what will happen when they take the SAT? Will they write on the college application: “Sorry, but I don’t test well?”

If a student cannot select the best answer from a multiple choice question that is as basic as those on the CRCT (most of the time), there are more issues that just “doesn’t test well.”

We have to get away from protecting students from failing. Failing is part of life. Allow students to fail and learn how to recover from that to succeed. That is a lesson everyone needs to know!

By tucansam

May 27, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

Standardized tests are what they are. However, I believe that most children are uncomfortable taking these tests with pencil and paper. It’s really an antiquated way of doing things in the computer age. I have a relative whose daughter is a straight-A student, who can’t pass the Louisiana equivalent to the CRCT. Now should this kid be held back? Oh, and get this, she’s a computer whiz! Why not administer the tests on the computer, where these kids are more comfortable and see how many kids do better. Results can come back sooner, too. Then, school officials can begin working on an attack plan for fixing the weak areas of study quicker. I just figure we can’t hurt anything by moving into the 21st Century. I know it works at the alternative school (Career & Technology Institute) in Houston County. That’s where kids do computer-driven class work at their own pace and get hands-on experience in the job-related subjects they are most interested in. Otherwise, most of them would never graduate from high school. I hope that changes are on the horizon in Georgia.

By ebdawg

May 27, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this

There needs to be some sort of balance. If my 8th grader scores an 85 average in the class for the year (which of course is a B) that tells me that she knows enough Math to move on to High School. A test that may not line up directly with the curriculum should not be the determining factor in that child moving on to high school. In my opinion the state has tried to move too far too fast in one year. This group of eigth graders should not be punished for that…. we are not talking about bad students who always struggle to make the grade, we are talking about students who normally do make the grade, they do their homework, and they score well in their classes… All A’s and B’s? Sorry.. your CRCT score isn’t good enough, welcome to summer school!! Something doesn’t sound right….

By Sandy

May 27, 2008 9:02 AM | Link to this

Something people need to remember is that all children do not learn at the same rate or accuracy. There will always be those, whether it be children or adults, who “fail”.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

Blogger,

I fear you’ve fallen into the testing trap.

Proponents of standardized tests often wrap themselves in the language of high standards. But that’s not the issue. No one advocates low standards. The issue is what we mean by higher standards, and how we can reach those standards.By and large, calls for more standardized tests come from politicians eager to prove they are serious about school reform and creating a “high skills,” internationally competitive workforce. But they offer little if any evidence that links increased testing to improved teaching and learning. Similarly, test-pushers pay scant attention to key issues such as smaller classes, improved teacher education, more time for teacher planning and collaboration, and ensuring that all schools receive adequate and equitable resources needed to boost achievement.

Too many politicians have seized on a simplistic formula for reform: more standardized tests, especially “high stakes” tests. Nationwide, states and school districts are forcing a growing number of children to take “high stakes” standardized tests and, on the basis of test scores, children may be retained, denied access to a preferred high school, or, in some cases, even refused a high school diploma. That’s not public accountability, it’s discrimination

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 9:13 AM | Link to this

So then, jim d, you propose to pass these students along from grade to grade until high school. Remember, though, in high school there is the ultimate GA High School Graduation Test (GHSGT). This is a pass/fail standardized test required by NCLB that all students must pass in order to get a high school diploma.

Those students never proving their knowledge on a “high stakes test” and are passed along from grade to grade will then hit this GHSGT and not graduate. That will balloon the high school drop out rate more than you can imagine.

The testing all throughout K-12 education is a good thing. If, for no other reason, to get the students to realize that the knowledge is important to remember beyond the classroom.

Besides, as already mentioned, there are other ‘high stakes testing’ that students must do: SAT, ACT, etc. It is far better to get students ready for such testing early on that to wait.

By b white

May 27, 2008 9:18 AM | Link to this

All these are EXCUSES!!! Georgia has no where to go but up on standardized testing. No it isn’t going to be easy, but bite the bullet and learn the material.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 9:23 AM | Link to this

HS teach,

TESTING isn’t aproven method of improving edcation. I’ve mentioned a few in my previous post, but note that testing wasn’t one of them.

Testing definetly has a place, I personally feel however that it is not the place of a one time pass fail to determine advancement.

By AlsoTeacher

May 27, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher, I think you have purposely misconstrued jim d’s point, which is high stakes testing at the expense of implementing more practical solutions to improve the quality of education in our schools is in many ways discriminatory, hence the current lawsuit over Georgia’s antiquated funding formula. I did not read his comments as supporting the practice of social promotion, which, by the way, continues to allow underprepared students to move on regardless of their test scores.

By Real Life

May 27, 2008 9:50 AM | Link to this

“Too many will simply give up on school” - fine - let them give up. Somebody has to change the tires on my car and wash the windows at my business.

By hsiobhanc

May 27, 2008 9:51 AM | Link to this

I am a parent of a 5th grader who has scored Principals honor roll 2 years in row (all a’s and b’s) and is also enrolled in the Gifted Program for his school. However, he is also dislexic, as are his younger sisters. my concern is not so much for whether or not he knows the information, but for me he would fall in that same category of does not test well, through no fault of his own. the idea that in the future he may be kept back because he transposes his numbers on a state imposed math test with no alternatives distrubs me.

By Sandy

May 27, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

For hsiobhanc

If your son is dyslexic he should have a 504 plan. Ask your school about a “504”.

By Steve

May 27, 2008 10:05 AM | Link to this

Standardized tests are about politicians playing politics. It is not about quality testing. If a student works a long math problem, follows all the rules but makes one little mistake does the teacher penalize the student by marking the entire answer wrong? Does the teacher give credit for 90% of the answer correct? Standarized testing is right or wrong. No grey areas. No credit for 90% correct towards a correct answer. Does this mean the student does not know the material in math? Some of you think it is very simplistic - learn the material. Wow. I wonder how many adults could pass the test. New political platform - NPLB. No Parent Left Behind. Pressure the DOE to release the test so you can actually see and take the test. Plus, many adults forget what it was like being a teenager. They see the world a lot differently than you currently see it. Try talking with a teenager, other than your own, to see how they think about things. It is interesting. Try it. I imagine adults might complain about work, their boss, spouses, price of gas, etc. Some kids sleep on the floor, have not a lot to eat and clothes are hand me downs. They rarely complain and they rarely quit. I know as I teach at a school that is 75% free or reduced lunch. For many the only food they get is breakfast and lunch at school and you are telling them to learn the material. It comes down to more than just answering a question if we are to evaluate the entire student/person. Politicians need to learn some of these lessons.

By hsiobhanc

May 27, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

Sandy,never heard of 504 before, but will look into it. thanks for the advice, we have dealt with too many teachers who feel that dislexic is just another term for uncooperative or stupid. thanks again!

By SallyB

May 27, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

“TESTING isn’t aproven method of improving edcation”. Totally agree with jimd on this.
However, whether it is a standardized test [correctly aligned with the material taught] or a teacher made test on material covered, it does yield valuable information.

IMO as a teacher, my tests often tell me that a student cannot read and understand a question. I sometimes know that if I were to ask the same question [orally/aloud], the student may well be able to answer it correctly. And I may well do that for that student. AND that student may make a passing or even good grade. NEVERTHELESS, in order to do well in an academic program of higher education, he/she must be able to answer questions on many kinds of written tests and exams. THUS, at least one indication of the importance of the information that comes from tests.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

HS Teach,

here’s a brief history lesson on HS testing.

Dating back to the development of IQ tests at the turn of the century, standardized tests have been used to sort and rank children, most reprehensibly along racial and class lines, and to rationalize giving more privileges to the already privileged. Indeed the first standardized tests were developed by eugenicists anxious for “scientific” data to prove their theories of biological determinism.

To acknowledge the sinister origins of standardized tests is not, however, to dismiss parent and community concerns about school accountability. I understand and agree with these concerns. Too many schools fail too many children, especially low-income students, students of color, and students who do not speak English as a first language.

I believe the broader community has not only the right but the responsibility to oversee how well schools perform. Good assessments can be one valid method of insuring accountability. It should not, however be the only method and it should not be a test that is held in secret so the community is unable to exercise that responsilitity.

By Andrew

May 27, 2008 10:49 AM | Link to this

I remember when NCLB went into effect when I was in 11th grade in Gwinnett Co. In addition to our regular tests and standardized tests required of us, we also now had to take biweekly benchmark tests. Regular test one week, benchmark the next. Everyday we were literally taught to the test so we could plow through the benchmark tests to make the school look good. Even had a few teachers show us the exact questions on it. That’s not teaching, that’s a scam.

I feel in many ways Gwinnett Co. failed me and others to prepare for college.

04 HS grad, still in college.

By Sandy

May 27, 2008 10:52 AM | Link to this

More on dyslexia and a “section 504” learning plan. It’s a legal document. He is entitled to it since he has dyslexia.

http://www.beat-dyslexia.com/blog/2008/03/with-dyslexia-and-adhd-504-plan-or-iep

Best of luck for your child!

By jim d

May 27, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

I don’t know if many of you teachers blogging here ever read or if you are even aware of Susan Ohanian’s web site but I highly recommend you visit and consider saving as a favorite.

By Larry

May 27, 2008 11:01 AM | Link to this

Gwinnett’s ultra secret Gateway was supposed to uncover social promotion, too. Yet when Gateway scores were at odds with the classroom grades they replaced, the Gateway’s strongest supporters – the BOE – declared the Gateway score invalid.

The only Gateway questions to ever reach the public were obviously trash.

Now we have the CRCT Social Studies scores thrown out because they are invalid.

Inaccurate test results prove nothing, yet it appears we should expect some level of invalid test scores. Why else would scores for a “new” test be expected to drop the first few years? The class and test are new to the kids every year.

By luvs2teach

May 27, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

First, let’s quit pretending that these “high stakes tests” are holding anyone back - especially the mythical A/B student who “doesn’t test well” - they’re not. Of the handful of kids I’ve seen retained after failing the test TWICE, all of those had also been eligible for retention based on grades alone. The majority were passed on because of age or bad behavior.

Very few of the kids who failed were surprises - either they had been struggling or put forth little to no effort. Many were transient - new to the school either at the start or sometime during the year. Many had been placed from the 7th grade. Most were in the 1st or 2nd stanine on the ITBS.

Second, please remember that these test were put into place (by politicians with the blessing of the voters, i might add) to help ensure that an A in county 1 was similar to an A in county 2 and that both As were reflective of quality work. I know that in my county, and at both schools where I’ve taught, we had limits as to how much homework or tests could count towards a grade. The rest was often “classwork” - often fluff. I would put more faith in the test results than the grade on the report card, sadly - and this is coming from someone whose school might not make AYP this year because of the math test!

Finally, look at your kids’ ITBS scores and work habits, as well as the grading policy for their math classes. What are tests worth? How are your child’s test grades - not overall grade? Is your child bringing home homework? Is he or she doing it - alone? Do you look at the returned work? Do their teachers grade for accuracy or completion? Is your child copying (rampant - !!! - in the schools and will give you a false sense of their capabilities). Do they have As & Bs yet score below average on a norm-referenced test like the ITBS? How is their attendance (I’ve seen kids who are absent a lot still make a low B becuase they get excused from work, yet still not pass the CRCT).

Just my two cents.

By SallyB

May 27, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

The most conspicuous and egregious error of this CRCT that Ms. Cox et al have created is that IT IS NOT VALID! It does NOT measure what it says it measures. The most basic,elementary student of statistics/testing knows that the first criteria for any successful test is that it be VALID [measures what it says it measures] and reliable [consistent]. The CRCT, developed for our GA students IS NEITHER!!!!!

By Jeff

May 27, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

1) I agree with luvs. She and I disagree some, but for the most part we have seen much of the same stuff through mostly the same lens.

2) THERE WILL BE NO EXCUSES. YOU WILL WORK HARDER HERE THAN EVER BEFORE. From Stand and Deliver, the teacher in the movie - Jaime Escalante - is saying it to a bunch a poor kids (mostly non-white) in the ghetto in LA. Those kids went on to take the AP Calc test and do so good that ETS investigated them for cheating. If that saying was the motto in EVERY classroom and in EVERY school, and was enforced by EVERY administrator and EVERY parent, we wouldn’t be sitting here talking about kids failing tests.

Think I’m stressed out? Nothing could be further from the truth. I’m one of the most laid back guys you’ll ever meet. (Think Jimmy Buffett/Kenny Chesney type attitude.) But when it comes to academics, I don’t play around. If you’ve got a solid brain, ANYTHING else can be achieved.

By SallyB

May 27, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

The most conspicuous and egregious error of this CRCT that Ms. Cox et al have created is that IT IS NOT VALID! It does NOT measure what it says it measures. The most basic,elementary student of statistics/testing knows that the first criteria for any successful test is that it be VALID [measures what it says it measures] and reliable [consistent]. The CRCT, developed for our GA students IS NEITHER!!!!!

By Janine

May 27, 2008 11:55 AM | Link to this

Agree with luvs. Once a test is valid and reliable, “* I would put more faith in the test results than the grade on the report card, sadly*” There is a need to equalize and therefore a need for these tests. For example, the SAT… When colleges are making decisions about which students to accept, they know that an A at school #1 does not necessarily mean the same as an A at school #2.

By Todd

May 27, 2008 12:02 PM | Link to this

I am starting to think the reason we have so many of these forum topics on standardized tests must be because the readers are generally stupid. They must forget the majority of what the read so they can continue to comment over and over on the same topic.

I am a teacher. I have taught now for 5 years. I have worked at a university, high school, and middle school. Trust me, the far majority of the population is not the brighest. There is a reason that the median IQ is always set to 100.

As a society, we continue to expect every kid to be a neurosurgeon, an established attorney, or a specific engineer. This is not going to happen, and we are wasting our time trying to make everyone equal.

I know so many love to use visual perspectives, so let me give it a shot. Can you imagine believing that every kid in America had the ability to break the 4 minute mile? Of course not. It is an inherent ability that can be developed, but not given. The same is with education. As there are only so many human beings with the unique physical condition and training (both nature and nurture here) who could possible do it, there are likewise only so many human beings who can be intelligent and succeed at certain levels of reasoning.

So let’s stop this continual demand that EVERY student succeed, and instead focus on training the burger flippers to be burger flippers and the rocket scientists to be rocket scientists.

Stop this mandatory education in the arts and sciences and get some of these kids who happen to be below the 100 IQ (50% of the population) some TRADE skills.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 12:03 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I’m afraid i must disgree to a degree.

While I do believe hard work is paramount to becoming successful at whatever endeavor one attempts, hard work alone can not compensate for not being provided the proper training.

By B

May 27, 2008 12:05 PM | Link to this

My child also has what is commonly termed “dyslexia”, in the form of auditory and visual processing problems. We have an IEP in place at the public school but are presently at a private school. An IEP does allow extra time on tests and you can also ask that they be allowed to mark in the test booklet itself so there is no need to match the questions with the number with the answers—-and thereby get lost in trying to bubble in the correct answer. Private schools do not have IEPs but our school works with us and our child to have certain things in place including extra test time.

Our child is a “poor” test taker because it takes a very long time to read a question (decoding is not easy), then set up the problem and/or eliminate answers—all of which need to be decoded, and in the case of math, actually do the problem. Our older child, who is in college, was never tested for a LD but is also not a good test taker. The SATs were very difficult but luckily after a prep course, scores were average on the third retake. Luckily the AP and honors courses and high GPA counted more as well as the extracurriculum activities than just a SAT score at the colleges applied/accepted to.

The pressure on the teachers and the students to pass the EOCT, GHSGT and the CRCT is not seen at our private school. There mid-terms and finals are the determining factors of whether or not the student learned what is needed for the next grade. Of course, the standards are high and if not met, summer school is required. They do take the ITBS so as parents we can continue to evaluate the school. So far we have not been disappointed.

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 12:06 PM | Link to this

Duh - testing is not a teaching method.

However, testing gives a marker on how WELL the student has learned the information.

IMHO, if the student has not learned the content then the student should not be promoted. Promoting a student that hasn’t learned the content leads to many negative things (some I mentioned in my previous posting).

Of course, good teaching practice tells us not to rely on testing alone for assessment. This is where the teacher in the classroom has the ability to assess the student’s knowledge. But, we are talking about State-wide (GHSGT, CRCT, etc) or Nation-wide (SAT, ACT, etc.)assessments here…. not the same thing at all!

By Emma

May 27, 2008 12:10 PM | Link to this

To: b white, yes they should bite the bullet and learn the material no arguement, BUT the kids have to be TAUGHT the materials to learn it. I don’t have a problem with testing it let’s me know if teachers are doing their part while I do my part as well.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

Andrew,

As a long time resident of Gwinnett, I offer my most sincere apologies for being a bit remiss, thus allowing the GCPS’s to fail to provide your generation with the tools y’all need to be successful.

By Rodney S.

May 27, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

Why not just gather up all the data and publish it? Break it down by gender, race and socio-economic background. Is that really asking for too much?

Without having seen any of the data, I’d instinctively assume that poor children raised by single parents score the lowest. So remind me again why we’re blaming the test, the schools and the teachers?

By Janine

May 27, 2008 12:18 PM | Link to this

luvs Speaking of the ITBS [norm referenced], even though it was not always aligned with our curriculum, I felt that it did give important information,[ albeit not surprising information ] about our students.. In the first years of the CRCT,my teaching team found it a revelation to compare our students CRCT scores to their ITBS scores. Our 7th grade students who passed the CRCT with a minimum score, most often made a very low score on all sections of the ITBS, both in percentile rank, grade equivalent,and stanine. We knew early on that the CRCT had big problems.

By catlady

May 27, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

If your child makes A’s and B’s and fails the CRCT, you SHOULD be asking questions. We have too many kids being graded very “gently”.

Does that mean I think the CRCT is a valid predictor of success? Nope, not after the revelations of this past weekend . No one has been minding the store. We don’t know if a third grader getting 27 right on the math portion (last year’s criteria) will be able to do fourth grade work. NO ONE has bothered to check the validity of these gateway tests. Yes, they MAY measure (but apparently some don’t—see the Soucial Studies test this year) what is supposed to be learned, but HOW were the cut scores arrived at, with no background research? Pure politics or some kind of expediency, I am guessing. How else would you explain that 48% correct would be “passing”?

By jim d

May 27, 2008 12:19 PM | Link to this

Scuse me there HS TEACH,

How do you justify testing on materials that were not taught? That is what we are dealing with right now here in Ga. “Test Validity” was sorely lacking. In my opinon, “These tests should have never been administered.” Without test validity, there can be no accountability.

By pauline

May 27, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

I can see years from now a lot of students dropping out of school due to these tests. Can’t reach 4th grade unless pass a test. But I guess this is what Georgia wants to do. Georgia will look “Great” under high dropout statistics. Unless the student is going into a career field where higher math is needed, they should know how to Add, Subtract, Multiply, Divide, take a percentage, fractions, money, and whatever basic math is needed to live. This is crap, Algebra in 8th grade. Come on Georgia and Kathy Cox “WAKE UP”. Let our teachers “teach” the curriculum that is needed and not teach tests. Tests are good to see what a student knows but not to keep them back.

By Janine

May 27, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

Todd We have done the let’s stop this continual demand that EVERY student succeed that you mention ad nauseum on this blog. Most teachers here realize that there are many ways to become contributing members of society,i.e. successful , WITHOUT a college degree. Unfortunately, the folks in charge, educrats and politicians, see it differently.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Right, enough dumbness is enough! Unable to find competent education accountability standards in any of the 50 states, the NCLB weapons of mass public education destruction were devised for a new education marketplace.

Proficiency by any means necessary for every kid sitting in a desk must be whittled down to the tried and true measurements of high-stakes testing and sanctions utilizing the equally tried and true superiority of disinvolved multiple choice tests.

These, as all marketplace accountants can attest to, provide insightful comprehension of student academic and social development.

Get rid of all the nonsensical frills of music, art, theatre, physical fitness, field trips and other non-academic squandering. Back to the basic 3 Rs – readin’, ‘ritin’ and ‘rithmatic.

If you can’t perform on these tests—-too bad. Sit in 2nd grade until you’re old enough to drive or your school shuts down Above all else, no more whining!

Does that sum it up for you?

By Janine

May 27, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

jimd You are so right about the validity thing. I, too, just cannot understand why these tests, so obviously without validity, were ever given! Simply put, *if 2nd grade standards indicate that students are to become proficient in the simple addition and subtraction 2 digit numbers, then a valid test would only present the addition and subtraction of 2 digit numbers and would, therefore,measure whether or not a student is proficient at adding and subtracting 2 digit numbers!

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 12:45 PM | Link to this

The confusion here is the purpose of testing. The purpose of testing is to test the student knowledge. It is NOT to test the ability of teacher. There are other ways to measure the ability of a teacher. jim d, in particular, seems confused on this point.

Regarding students, if a student did not learn the content and cannot demonstrate that knowledge by passing a very basic standardized test, they should not be promoted, period! Why? Obviously, that student is not prepared to learn the next level of content and will become even more lost (academically speaking). If that failing student is allowed to be promoted from grade to grade, becoming more and more lost, then most certainly they don’t have a prayer when it comes time for the High School Graduation Test.

Regarding teachers, if you want to know about how to measure teaching ability, that is a whole other topic/blog.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 12:46 PM | Link to this

Oh but Jeff,

Thanks for the laugh, comparing you attitude to that of Jimmy Buffett. Yes indeed it may be true if you could put him in the drivers seat of an M1 Abrams.(MBT) LOL!!

By Jeff

May 27, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

jim:

Actually, I would NEVER let them out of second grade.

You’re right on the other accounts though.

And besides, K12 aint exactly rocket science. If you can’t pass K12 - particularly in GA - something is truly wrong with you, and you should probably be placed in a home for the ‘less than mentally fit’.

By Jeff

May 27, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

jim:

Again, knowledge truly is power.

In my case, if I ever NEED to drive an M1A2, I could probably figure it out in short order. Ditto with using any of its defensive/offensive systems. Dude that couldn’t graduate K12? Well, let’s just say there are REASONS US DoD no longer accepts HS dropouts…

But as far as general attitude? If I could live the rest of my life on Isla Pasion in one of those hammocks, I would go down there right now and you’d never see me again!

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 1:03 PM | Link to this

jim d- Calm down there!

I never justified testing over material not taught. As I understand, the disconnect is between what the State wanted to be taught vs. what the State tested on. Again, none of that has to do with teacher ability. That is an error by the State (Cox, specifically). And, that is why the State threw out those test results.

BTW, do you even know what “test validity” means? It is a statistical term with a specific meaning.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 1:11 PM | Link to this

Gee jeff,

I’m afraid we would soon run out of room in those “homes for the ‘less than mentally fit’ if we started filling them up with all the lationo’s in this country that struggle with the language.

HS Teach,

Uhm, did I just have a brain fart or did I actually blame teachers somewhere for this phenom of HS testing failures? I certainly don’t recall doing so! I fully comprehend the fact that teachers teach the materials they are instructed to teach but that, in no way, insinuates they are teaching what will be tested, nor that they are aware that what will be tested is not what they were instructed to teach.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

HS Teach,

Contrary to popular belief, one need not have to be a professional teacher to understand the concepts of Test Validity which include Concurrent Validity, Content Validity, as well as Predictive Validity.

By Jeff

May 27, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

jim:

The kids who ‘struggle with the language’ have two options:

1) Go back to ‘base’ - home country - and go through K12 there.

2) Learn the language.

Is either option easy? Not by any stretch of the imagination. But then, neither is life.

Again, by coddling kids - in this case, by teaching in their native language rather than the language of THIS country - you are CRIPPLING them. Aint exactly that many white collar jobs in this country where you can get away with NOT knowing English…

By One Voice

May 27, 2008 1:24 PM | Link to this

This year there was clearly something wrong with the CRCT assessments. It could have been the test itself or it could have been a matter of the curriculum being misaligned with what was being assessed. I’d have to look at more specific data to determine what the problem was, and I’m sure someone is doing that now.

But we need to keep in mind that most high stakes tests are essentially basic skills tests. The language arts portion of the GHSGT is little more than a literacy test. Students who have a 6th grade reading level should be able to pass it and earn their diplomas. That’s a very low bar, and at this point, the state is doing little more than insuring that we are not graduating illiterate students. Yes, the tests should be updated, test the most relevant skills, and be made to align with an effective curriculum. But there is also the problem that many students are moving through our schools and failing to develop even the most basic skills. That is the real problem, and many of the tests are just the messengers. Don’t shoot the messenger by focusing on the measure; figure out why students are not learning and address that.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 2:02 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I find you compassion for your fellow human beings mind-numbing.

How many second graders have the option of being able to convince their parents to pick up and move? And let’s see—Yep, a kid that’s been here 6 months should be able to speak and understand the language they are being tested in perfectly. (No excuses, man) Gee, wonder why they caan’t?

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 2:14 PM | Link to this

jim d - Good job! You googled the internet and picked up some terms. But, do you understand what they mean?

By northGeorgia

May 27, 2008 2:22 PM | Link to this

I am a math teacher, and will share a different perspective. High stakes tests are not really for assessing students but are a “Big Brother” check on teachers. Back in the 1960s and 70s there were no high stakes tests. Students moved on to the next grade if they passed their classes. It was assumed the teacher was a professional and a year’s worth of teaching and evaluating could accurately gauge student performance (and it DID). However, some public schools served wealthier suburban families while others served poor rural or urban students. The average “graduate” of different schools varied greatly in skills and knowledge. Therefore universities used SAT and ACT scores as well as grades to determine entrance. Unfortunately, there have always been mean-spirited people who never have trusted teachers, and held a suspicion that we were really just sitting around all day reading the paper or sleeping. (This includes a lot of the NCLB gang). They interpreted student success gaps as more the fault of teachers than where it truly lies, the home life. (If they are right, then “bad” teachers’ own kids should also perform badly, right? But 99.999% of teacher’s kids excel in school, because teachers KNOW how to teach; the real reason kids do poorly academically are deficiencies in their OWN homes too great for any teacher to overcome!) So over the past 20 years we have seen an ever-increasing barrage of testing to “expose” bad teaching. Instead, the standardized tests reinforced what we already knew: properly parented, disciplined students from stable homes continue to succeed!!!!! Another aspect of test misinformation involves student motivation. The properly parented kid will for the most part try his hardest, and that score is indeed reflective of his current knowledge. However, many children lack the motivation to do well, and do not even try on the test. This is compounded by the issuance of these tests towards the end of the year when kids are generally “burned out”. We need to go back to the time-honored system of teacher judgement as to whether a student is “ready” to go on to the next level.

By MathTeacher

May 27, 2008 2:23 PM | Link to this

Too many people are complaining about kids who are A/B students but failed the CRCT. Grades are simply the indicators of how well students learned the content of the courses taught by the specific teachers. The CRCT (or any other criterion referenced standardized test) is testing whether or not students learned the materials listed in the state standards. If A/B students fail the CRCT, then one question we should be asking is what their teachers were teaching (and how they are assessing their students).

Having said all of that, I think our education system is driven way too much by these high-stake tests. There must be a way to make sure that students are being taught what they should be studying (and learning). But, the more important a decision is, the more important it is for us to be using multiple sources of information. To base everything on one single item, no matter what it is, seems to be an unwise move.

By Jack ATL

May 27, 2008 2:24 PM | Link to this

We need to address one basic question: do we want our kids to successfully compete in a global economy when they become adults? If the answer to that question is ‘YES’ then, much more rigor must be placed in academics and testing. We are now being beat — especially in math and science by countries who were considered ‘3d world countries’ 20 years ago. QUESTION: where was your cell phone, TV, and auto manufactured? Ask yourself the question ‘why’ did you purchase the brand you purchased! We can successfully compete, but our current public education system needs a total overhaul.

By Lex Luthor

May 27, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

So, let’s see. Math in the 8th grade involved: fractions, decimals, long division, multiplication, adding, and subtracting. Maybe some whole number powers (2 squared and such)

Honestly if you can’t do that by the beginning of the 9th grade, you deserve to fail. Too many students who did bother to learn are held back when this 8th grade lvl crap is repeated through out highschool.

Seriously, Think About Those Who Did Pass!! Is it fair to hold them back in the 9th grade? Is it fair for them to have to take the same course work because the person sitting next to them wasted their frist 8 years in school?

By Old Physics Teacher

May 27, 2008 2:48 PM | Link to this

I can’t speak to the K-8 CRCT tests,nor can I address what is going on in those classrooms. The concept of twenty 7 thru 9-year-olds pulling on my pants legs calling my name over and over and over is not one I wish to visualize. Elementary school teachers have my respect and admiration. There is no threat too large, Budwiser doesn’t brew enough beer, there is no salary large enough to get me in one of those classrooms.

I do know that the 8th grade math test tested what was supposed to be taught, however, I don’t know if the teachers had the time to teach everything that was in the curriculum at a rate slow enough for no child to get left behind, or even if the material being tested was valuable in the first place.

On the other hand, the GHSGT in science examined if the students had an understanding of biology, the nuclear atom, and chemistry at the 10th grade level. That’s why the scores have been historically so low in science. Frankly, the reason the science scores improved so much was that we finally decided that a lot of the knowledge we were teaching was useless for the average citizen. Heck, a significantly large portion of our VOTING population believes we have only been on this earth for less than 10 000 years. We’re trying to bring them into the 20th century, and they’re kicking and screaming trying to stay in the 19th. It’s no wonder our test scores are so low.

Jim D wants to throw the tests out - fine with me. Who’s going to bell the cat? Neither the Dems nor the Repubs have the guts to do that. the other part would call them “soft on education.”

Jeff wants our graduates to be able to think and apply learning - once again, fine with me. How many of our average population can do that? Visualize the ignorance of the average US voter, and how easy it is to distract them (can you say ADD?). Now accept that half of them are below that ability level! I remember one of Heinlein’s characters once defining adulthood as the point at which the person could accept the fact the world would go on after they themselves died. His response? To scoff and remark that if that was true, there are an awful lot of very tall children walking around. The book was written in the 1950’s - using characters drawn from “our greatest generation.”

We’ve gotten in a heck of a mess. I have no clue how we’re goin to get out of it.

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 2:49 PM | Link to this

Math Teacher - There is something else that may be happening to your A/B student that fails the CRCT…. What about grade inflation?

Little Sally’s parents complain and complain to the teacher and to the administration about Sally’s grades. To pacify the parents, the administration (or teacher) finally says, “Fine. I’ll give her an A.” But then, little Sally fails the CRCT.

Is that the teacher’s fault? Is that the parent’s fault?

What the heck about Sally’s fault!?!?! Everyone (parents, teachers, administrators, general public) forgets that ultimately the responsibility of LEARNING falls on the LEARNER (aka student). If little Sally doesn’t pay attention in class, study at home, complete assignments, etc., whose fault is that? The end result is that Sally never learned the content!

Testing (high stakes or otherwise) is simply an assessment tool to see where the students learning/knowledge has progressed (or not).

I agree that if teachers would accuratly assess the student throughout the course then ‘high stakes testing’ is not needed. However, and obviously, this is not happening for whatever reason.

By MathTeacher

May 27, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

Lex, 8th grade math is much more than you listed. Much of what used to be called Algebra I is now in Grade 8. This year’s grade 8 kids are probably the most unfortunate group as they are the group who had to go through the new standards for the first time in Grade 6, then Grade 7, and finally in Grade 8. They will be the first to go through HS math standards as well. I don’t know why we threw away the social study test scores when they really didn’t have any real consequence.

As far as the grade inflation issue is concerned, I think too many teachers (perhaps forced by the system) count homework as a part of grades. I believe homework must be assigned, but they should not be a part of grades - or if you are going to grade them, grade them for the accuracy of the work, not whether or not students completed it.

By Lex Luthor

May 27, 2008 3:05 PM | Link to this

They should give the teachers the same test and FIRE all who fail. And, alot will!

By Lex Luthor

May 27, 2008 3:19 PM | Link to this

MathTeacher,

What do you call Algerbra I? I do remember having to plot a straight line on a grid in 8th grade, but solving a linear two variable equation isn’t that hard.

Given x + y = 1, solve for all values of x where y is an integer in the range of 0 to 10. Even solving this equation for Y and using rise/run to plot the line is simple.

All 8th graders should be able to do that problem! I guess you can call it Algebra I.

Its about time that these test are made available to the public so we can see what made them so hard.

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 3:24 PM | Link to this

Lex - You certainly would fail the English portion! It is not “alot” but rather “a lot.”

Remember, the teachers are their to teach the content. It is the students that are there to learn the material and to be tested. Let’s not forget that.

By Dan

May 27, 2008 3:30 PM | Link to this

Nothing is riding on the tests but the validity of the education system. The test doesn’t prevent anyone from earning a diploma it simply prevents those who didn’t earn it from receiving one and claiming they have accomplished a level of learning equal to those who did. The whole point of the tests are to measure the system, and the backlash from the education community is simply due the fact that their bluff has been called.

By jim d

May 27, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

OLD PT,

After this past weekend we have another choice in Bob Barr who is running on the Libertarian ticket.

By Jeff

May 27, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

jim:

If they fail, keep them in second grade. By the time they retest, they will have been in-country for 18 months. (Plenty of time for ANYONE to learn a language if it is the only one being spoken around them.)

If they fail again, they will have been in country for 30 months when they take the test again. The next time, they will be in country for 42 months. Sooner or later, they will get the point that they need to learn the language to advance, and is that such a bad thing to be teaching?

By jim d

May 27, 2008 3:47 PM | Link to this

The party line

By Tony

May 27, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

jim d has done an excellent job of responding to the damaging influences of the “testing frenzy.” High stakes test will do much more harm than good. The ultimate result will be the dumbing down of the whole curriculum. In statistics, it is important to understand that an average has a middle point. There are 50% above and 50% below. There can be no other way. Grade level is an average of kids abilities at a given point in their school careers. There will always be 50% above and 50% below average. WE CANNOT MAKE ALL KIDS AVERAGE AND ABOVE!

True story: My father is the chief of a rural fire department. New recruits must take training classes and pass written tests. There is one who makes 100s on all the tests and another that can never pass the test. Well guess what. The guy that makes 100s can not pull the hose, turn on the nozzle and spray the fire without being told every single step. The one who can’t pass the written test is very capable of performing the tasks to extinguish the fire. Who do you want to come to your rescue?

Testing will not improve education. Let’s help our politicians get over it and move on. We did so in the early 90s when Zell Miller was elected and the testing programs were cut back.

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 4:05 PM | Link to this

Question to All - Why do you think that colleges require the SAT or the ACT or something like that?

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Tony - Okay, let’s make it so (what you suggest). How, then, do you propose to ensure that the students learn when they are supposed to learn as they are promoted from one grade to the next?

As a high school teacher, I grow tired of seeing freshman come into my school that have passed grades 1 through 8 yet cannot read and cannot add or subtract.

How do you propose to diagnose and then correct this problem? I am all ears.

By Tony

May 27, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

The SAT and ACT are highly validated instruments that receive tremendous scrutiny before being used. They are also only one component in a college’s decision for admission. The tests are never the sole basis for admission’s criteria. Comparing these tests to the unscrutinized, unvalidated, high-stakes CRCT does not add support to the case for testing students.

By Teacher

May 27, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Watch out, there may be a lawsuit pending. This high stakes testing is crushing our children.

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

Tony - But you did not answer the question at hand. Also, I was not comparing them to the CRCT or anything. I simply asked a question.

Regarding your point about validation, it is my understanding that the GA DOE does complete test validation and also per question validation for all tests (CRCT, GHSGT, and End-of-Course Test). There is a rather large segment of employees at the DOE that has that as their sole job.

Now…. maybe they didn’t do a good job? Don’t know.

By catlady

May 27, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

BTW, some well thought of colleges no longer ask for the SAT/ACT.

I have students in 4th grade math who came in with Bs. (they failed the crct in reading and math but were sent on. They get “intervention” instruction every day for 30 minutes in math and 30 in reading, in addition to two hours of reading and an hour and a half of math.) They cannot add to 10 without fingers, subtract from 10 without fingers, or add/subtract to 20 WITH fingers accurately. Now, how the zztt did that happen? They look smart—all those B’s all their school careers. Their parents think they are doing well. Yet, they are 2 years behind in math. What are their prospects for doing long division? They can’t multiply or divide, and cannot subtract after they do. They cannot do two digit multiplication—cannot multiply, and cannot add after they do. So we are supposed to pull them aside and do “needs based” instruction, meaning we try to teach them what they should have been able to do coming out of second grade. The problem is, the WHOLE class cannot do it, but a need-based group has to be a SMALL group. And what happens with those who are not in the group? What do they do? They need to be instructed. Trying to have them “practice” skills they do not have is an exercise in futility. They have mastered little.

Now, they will go on to fifth grade with very similar problems, but now they are THREE years behind. And after doing all that again, they will fail the crct. Guess what? Here they come, middle school! It is no wonder our math scores are so dismal!

Teaching means Learning to MASTERY. That’s why I can still do algebra after all these years. That’s why I can still speak Spanish after 40 years. MASTERY.

Amen and amen, Tony! I knew the state was not asking questions about why no one was repeating after failing the CRCT. Now we know why: they can have NO FAITH in the CRCT because it has not been sufficiently validated. We don’t know WHAT the cut scores should be to show enough mastery to do the next year’s work because NO ONE HAS SHOWN THE LEADERSHIP TO CORRECTLY SET UP THE TESTING. IN SEVEN YEARS, NO ONE HAS DONE IT! Now, teachers have been castigated and students have been run through the mill and we have all kinds of test security, but all along we have been testing based on someone’s “guess” about the score based on someone’s political ambitions or someone’s financial gain.

Parents, lawmakers, and taxpayers should be storming the DOE. HOW DID THIS HAPPEN?

By catlady

May 27, 2008 5:01 PM | Link to this

H.S. teacher, the doe may have checked for content validity (obviously not real well for social studies) but the test also has to have construct validity (did the test actually MEASURE that skill) For example, for 3rd graders there are no longer any straight computation problems. The math section is ALL reading based. Therefore, kids who cannot read will also appear not to be able to calculate. The test now does not measure calculation; it is first and foremost a READING test.

Then there is the issue of: if you gave the test again,would you get the same results? Except for very highly motivated kids, I think not. Too big a guess factor with multiple choice.

Then, there is the predictive validity. Hasn’t been done. We don’t know how much a student needs to score on the test to probably successfully do the work in the next grade. So, does a kid need 40 correct out of 55 “real” questions (questions not being field tested) in order to be successful the next year, or do they need last year’s 27 correct to get that 800 (minimal passing score). Who knows? That question is moot, however, if you do not have content and construct validity.

By FranA

May 27, 2008 5:02 PM | Link to this

Go to http://www.gadoe.org/DMGetDocument.aspx/CRCT%20Grade%208%20Study%20Guide.pdf?p=6CC6799F8C1371F644BE0F83285ADFC8ED501CA46FC6B556D3FE35F2EF1CF201&Type=D You will need to copy and paste this into your browser and it will take a few minutes to download. Go take the sample test. Can you pass it? Do you feel that any child who cannot pass it is unworthy of high school? Let’s look at what we are talking about.

By HB

May 27, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

Why do you think that colleges require the SAT or the ACT or something like that?

Because it is a carefully designed test that over the years has been shown to give an idea of a student’s abilities. Therefore, when viewed alongside other factors such as student grades and their own schools, it helps an admissions office to get an idea of the whole student. It’s rarely pass-fail, as in over 1200 gets in, below does not. A selective school may let in a STAR student/valedictorian with 1300 from school, and deny one with 1350 who’s barely in the top 20% of his class at another.

These high stakes tests, though, are pass-fail, and quite possibly, poorly designed, particularly the ones designed in recent years by states to be part of a new evaluation program, as opposed to the ITBS, which has long been seen as a useful assessment tool.

How, then, do you propose to ensure that the students learn when they are supposed to learn as they are promoted from one grade to the next?

An excellent question that needs an answer. I certainly don’t think the CRCT ensures learning. It just holds kids back after the fact (maybe — as some have pointed out here, most kids seem to be promoted anyway). Even the best of tests can only tell what has or has not already been learned. Maybe more focus needs to be placed on the front-end of things…

By jolie

May 27, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this

I’m a seventh grader who took the social studies CRCT test. I have gotten straight A’s my entire life, and I’ve never failed a test. But that test was way too hard. It asked some questions about things none of us had ever even heard of, but generally, it had questions about countries we hadn’t studied.But what I found interesting was how easy the other CRCT’s were in comparison - questions on the language arts one were things like “Would the noun ‘car’ be described by the pronoun her, him, she, or it?” Quite a difference!

By SallyB

May 27, 2008 5:22 PM | Link to this

So, after almost 6 hours or posting, many of you seem to agree with my post @11:43….The most conspicuous and egregious error of this CRCT that Ms. Cox et al have created is that IT IS NOT VALID i.e. It does NOT measure what it says it measures. The most basic,elementary student of statistics/testing knows that the first criteria for any successful test is that it be VALID [measures what it says it measures] and reliable [consistent]. The CRCT, developed for our GA students IS NEITHER!!!!!

By SallyB

May 27, 2008 5:24 PM | Link to this

HB.. AMEN!!

By John

May 27, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

I find it VERY funny that you don’t see these complaints coming out of mostly white school districts like East Cobb, Alpharetta, Forsyth, etc. Why is that? Why do blacks think someone is always out to get them? They are the ones taking free money from the government by having 10 kids and living in the projects. Also, did you see the story on that black school in Memphis regarding their prom? Unreal. Many black schools are having to cancel proms now. Unreal.

By Janine

May 27, 2008 5:32 PM | Link to this

Jolie Absolutely. The CRCt purports to measure whether or not a student has learned what has been taught….NOT general knowledge, NOT ability to make deductions from information presented [unless that was taught]/. So, if a student’s time in class has been spent on studying the West Indies, questions on Myanmar are totally irrelvant! That’s apparently the type of thing that happened on the Social Studies CRCT. Of course, the MAJOR QUESTION for parents is HOW did that happen??????

By jim d

May 27, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

HS teach,

you bring up an interesting point regarding test validity when asking about the ACT and SAT.

With these tests we are able to use Predictive Validity measures since the results have been tracked so thoroughly over the years. With these test results we are actualyy pretty much able to predict what the chances of a student being able to perform at the college level are.

However, As Tony pointed out the CRCT lacks the validation that the ACT and the SAT both enjoy. It has been mentioned that neither are really being used as a HS test since many colleges use several other indicators in admittance decisions.

I’m not too sure why you feel it is necessary to defend the bogus test (CRCT) unless you may somehow be gaining finacially from the test, in which case I might be able to at least understand your staunch support of it. There could be little other explanation.

By BBB

May 27, 2008 5:44 PM | Link to this

I was assigned to read the 7th grade SS test aloud to a group of students. I was SHOCKED at the questions. After hours of teacher training on the new standards the students were tested on trivia.

There is no way to prepare a student to test on minute details when they study the three oldest civilizations (Asia, Africa, and the Middle East) in the world!

I was thrilled when the new standards came out because they spelled out what, I thought, each student was to learn. (Though I did think it too much for 7th grade.) It is a shame that the test makers did not stay away from trivia and concentrate on the standards.

I feel sorry for the children. They tried so hard.

By MathTeacher

May 27, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this

I am not a psychometrician, so I can’t tell you whether or not the CRCT is valid. However, I would hope that when the state Dept. of Ed contracted with the company, they required the test be validated. On the other hand, the CRCT does not necessarily test what was taught - that’s each teacher’s decision. The CRCT tests whether or not students learned what is expected of them on the state standards. If the students’ haven’t seen the materials on the CRCT, then the problem is with their teachers.

Also, with all the testing experts out there, can you clarify that a criterion reference test (like the CRCT) can have 100% of the students actually “passing,” can’t it? It is still true that 50% may be above the median, but 100% can be above the cut score that is set, can’t they?

The CRCT may not be released, but the state standards are available on the web for anyone who wants to see what it is that the state is expecting our students to know.

By HS Teacher

May 27, 2008 7:33 PM | Link to this

The answer to my question, “Why do colleges require the SAT, ACT, or other standardized test?” is primarily this…

Colleges need a way to normalize the variability of applicants across the Country (and the World). For example, a valedictorian from a high school in Nebraska may actually be a “weaker” applicant academically than a student from a high school in West Virginia that finished in the upper quartile of their class. If all they looked at were high school grades, they could not see this. They need a standardized test that all students take to compare apples to apples.

Similarly, the State of GA needs to ensure that not only all schools are more or less uniform, but also that the students are learning the content expected. Just because a student makes an “A” in social studies class does not mean that the student has learned anything at all. We need a way to ensure that an A in SS class in Valdosta is somewhat close to an A in Rome.

Now, I fully realize that there was the disconnect that happened with SS (the State questions did not match what the State said to teach). But, I was asking the question in order to resolve the issue of the NEED for standardized testing.

Yes, there certainly is the need. But, and as we saw, the test needs to closely align with what the State tells us what should be taught.

FYI…. be aware that this “trivia” test that was the SS CRCT is much like the “trivia” test that is the science part of the HSGT. HS science teachers have been struggling for YEARS with this to no avail. And, guess what is the most often failed part of the GHSGT? That’s right, it is science.

The HS science standards are few and extremely broad. But, the questions are specific and very trivia-like.

The poster here that was a student made a comment about how easy the English questions were. That is also true for the English part of the GHSGT. While the science questions are picky and difficult, there was actually an English question that was like….

“In the above paragraph, what punctuation mark follows the word, “were?”

There is usually 95% to 99% passing rate for English on the GHSGT. The science passing rate is something like 75%. Wonder why?

By Tony

May 27, 2008 7:54 PM |