Get Schooled

By BlogWatch

May 22, 2008 7:56 AM | Link to this

So what about the rather large cost associated with creating and administering the social studies test - not to mention the cost to grade them? Will Cox also be giving this money back to the tax payers?

Another example of how inept politicans screw up education and cost taxpayers.

By jim d

May 22, 2008 8:01 AM | Link to this

Laura,

Personally I feel just throwing Cox out would do more good for education in Georgia.

The only Problem I see with doing so is that we could easily end up with something far worse being elected by an uninformed electorate.

By Lynda Funderburke

May 22, 2008 8:10 AM | Link to this

My 8th grader did VEREY well on ALL of the crct test. He was in the mid to upper 800’s in them all. As for my 6 th grader I do not know as of yet. They said we DIDNT need those scores right now. We are in Gwinnett’s Berkmar cluster.

By jim d

May 22, 2008 8:15 AM | Link to this

CTB/McGraw-Hill

NUFF SAID!! well it is if everyone knows of the ties between the company and the illustrious leader of our nation.

By jim d

May 22, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this

Lynda,

If the tests are in fact flawed I’d be concerned if my child did exceptionally well on them. (just something to think about)

By OldLady

May 22, 2008 8:53 AM | Link to this

Just a comment - My best friend teaches 8th grade social studies in a south metro county, and for the last couple of years she has bemoaned the fact that her principals (she transferred to a different county this past year)ANNOUNCED to the children via the PA system that while the reading and the math scores were important and would keep them from moving to high school, the social studies CRCT scores meant little or nothing. Now THERE’S A STORY! Ask social studies teachers in area middle schools how much emphasis administrators place on the various tests. Stop blaming the tests …

By HS Teacher

May 22, 2008 9:03 AM | Link to this

IMHO, I would bet that the tests were not really flawed. What was flawed includes:

I would bet that if the exact same test questions are used next year, the students would score much better because the two items above will be corrected.

If you guys think that the social studies scores are bad now, just wait until the State rolls out the science part of the CRCT! The elementary and middle school teachers I know hardly teach science at all!!!!

By ghostwriter

May 22, 2008 9:17 AM | Link to this

Massachusetts usually leads the nation in academic achievement because its two senators lead the way in stressing the importance of it and demand teacher accountability. Our politians worry about farm bills, state flags, lapel pins, and topics that have nothing to do with improving education. That goes for you too Zell.

By Jason

May 22, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

Fail the CRCT? We’ll throw out the results and pretend it never happened. Score poorly on the SAT? We’ll blame cultural biases and the higher percentage of test takers in Georgia. Need a 3.0 GPA for HOPE? We’ll inflate grades until everyone qualifies.

When will schools stop sweeping dirt under the rug and actually clean up their mess?

By Involved Parent

May 22, 2008 9:27 AM | Link to this

My son is an eighth grade student at one of South DeKalb’s middle schools. He failed the math test by a few points. However, we were confident that he would pass because he was prepared and had studied everything that he was told would be on the test. Well, the contents or something about the test changed. Just like Bush sent America into a war without us knowing all the facts, we sent our children to take a test with all the facts and information. Kathy Cox this seems like a good reason for a class-action suit. Parents let’s think about that, and let’s think about our elected officials when it’s time to vote again.

By HS Teacher

May 22, 2008 9:31 AM | Link to this

Jason - Please don’t use the word “schools”. Really, this isn’t the “schools” fault. It it the GA politicans fault (Cox to be specific).

By WFC

May 22, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

Oh my! The kids do badly so we throw out the test. Sounds all too familar.

Teachers need to truly understand their subjects before any progress will be made. Not their problem… teacher prep programs have not emphasized subject matter understanding for over 30 years.

By Angry Parent

May 22, 2008 9:33 AM | Link to this

I agree with ghostwriter, and then they (the state) put the blame and consequences on the children.

By jeed

May 22, 2008 9:35 AM | Link to this

If I were in the 33% of students who passed the CRCT (or one of their parents), I’d be fairly upset.

Obviously and evidently, there were teachers and students who were prepared to do well.

Instead of questioning/pampering/focusing on the students who did NOT peform so well (potentially through no fault of their own - who knows), why not talk to the teachers/students who DID do well and RAISE THE BAR for the rest?

Interesting what happens when suburban kids have issues with standardized tests.

By No Name yet

May 22, 2008 9:37 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher- Just for the record. We middle school teachers were very familar with the new standards. We had hours of training in this area.We did what we were told.

In my many years of teaching I have avoided reading the CRCT Questions. This year I was assigned to read it aloud to a group of students. After reading that horrible 7th grade SS assessment I will make sure that I read the test every year! Someone has to keep an eye on the highly paid at the top.

I need three things to make my frustration over this go away. 1. Don’t hurt the children with any more flawed tests. 2. Throw out the 8th grade SS too. Just because it “wasn’t as bad” doesn’t mean it should not go away. 3. I want some people at the top GONE!!! This should have never happened!

By jim d

May 22, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

Anyone care to discuss the probability of only 3-5% of the students will fail any retest?

I can assure you this would be the case since the retest will actually be easier and based on only failing that percentage. Ironically this is about the same percentage that would have failed prior to all this testing mania. So what have we gained?

By DJ

May 22, 2008 9:42 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher -

Yes, let’s hear another comment from the high school teachers. YOU are the enlightened ones. Of course.

I have a Master’s Degree in history. I KNOW my content. I KNOW the GPS Standards. I am certified to teach high school. I would wager that I know more about social studies than most high school social studies teachers, who are often uncertified hires used to fill coaching vacancies.

I also know that when questions are asked out of content and are not aligned. Trivial Pursuit is not my area of certification.

Don’t make such gross generalizations about middle/elementary teachers. You do not know everything, despite your own humble opinion.

By Involved Parent

May 22, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

I meant to say, “we sent our children to take a test WITHOUT them having all the facts and information.

By jim d

May 22, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

prediction for next years test.

Only about 15% failure rate. Questions will be re-done to accomodate this. Allowing summer schools to remain affordable and capable of doing in a few weeks what the regular classroom failed to accomplish in 180 days for all but about the 5% that will end up being retained.

Remember Folks—ya heard it here first!

By ADL

May 22, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

Throw out the tests…check. Blame the President…check. Lower the bar for the next test…not yet, but surely it will happen.

Let’s keep dumbing down until all the kids feel good about themselves!!

By Lisa

May 22, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

While I feel badly for the parents, students and teachers in this predicament, I am once again reminded why my husband and I go without vacations, nice cars and luxuries to pay for private school. I don’t think the finger can be pointed at any one person/entity or group…the whole system is severely broken and simply throwing more money at the problem will not help. Parents need more school choice!!

By HS Teacher

May 22, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

DJ and No Name Yet

Don’t be angry with me. I call it like I see it.

I teach HS science. Talk about trival pursuit? Take a look at any high school science end-of-course test or even the science part of the high school graduation test! That is nothing but memorizing science factoids.

Yes, I could teach students how science works and make it “fun” and all. They won’t learn the facts such as the parts of a cell, or the two types of electricity, etc. But, the State tests on those facts and so I must include those in my teaching.

You also must include those social science facts in your teaching - and this is what you are realizing now. So don’t be angry with me!

By LikestoBlog

May 22, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

Lisa - Parents already have choice. For example, you made a choice to send your kids to private school. You made a choice to pay the money. Deal with it.

By dummies

May 22, 2008 10:09 AM | Link to this

Y’all keep whining, I have home schooled 3 who have gone on to college and got their degree’s in 4 yrs.(3 RN’s) Raise a dumb kid and it is everyone else’s fault. The responsibilities for raising a child lay solely on the parent.

By DB

May 22, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

Personally, I think the use of a test such as the CRCT to determine promotion, etc. is dumb. If the kid has gone all year long making acceptable grades, and then suddenly can’t pass the CRCT, that tells me that there’s a problem with what was being taught, not the student. You can’t go an entire year saying, “Yeah, yeah, you’re doing great!” and then, based on the result of one test, suddenly say, “What a doofus — you’re an idiot for not knowing this stuff.”

Use the CRCT as a guide to judging teaching effectiveness, but using it as a final cut for kids is a cop-out. It’s as if a school system is saying, “We can’t be trusted to give appropriate grades and to accurately evaluate your child’s progress during the year, so we’re going to depend on this test.”

Every time I read this stuff, it makes it a little easier to write that private school tuition check.

By WFC

May 22, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

DJ… may God have mercy on your soul, because the system won’t.

Just for fun, let’s have a “history contest” between the two of us! We each put up $5,000. Winner take all!

William F. Casey III, Johns Creek, Ga.

By DJ

May 22, 2008 10:28 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher -

No, what I’m “realizing now” is that the social studies tests were flawed. I teach facts every day that I am in the classroom. Teaching relevant facts and teaching random trivia are two different things.

I’ll use my example from the other blog - one of the CRCT questions asked about a governor who worked with prison reform - the answer, I knew, was Lester Maddox. But did the kids know that? No! Know why? Because under the GPS Standard, students were asked to describe Maddox’s role in the Civil Rights Movement. I don’t even want to go in to some of the crazy questions that were on the 7th grade test. When the test doesn’t match the GPS, something is wrong.

The GPS is a study guide for the CRCT, and when the study guide doesn’t accuartely tell you what is on the test, the results are dismal.

I can always improve. This is my second year of teaching GPS, so I know that my teaching will improve and so will my scores. I will do my part in teaching the standards more effectively, but the state needs to re-work their alignment as well. (Oh, and by the way, my scores were well above the state average - and I still say the test was completely unfair.)

By lynn d

May 22, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

HS Teacher

The curriculum, as designed by the state, didn’t stress facts, but stressed critical thinking, analytical thinking, etc.

If the state wanted kids to just regurgitate facts, then that is what should have been stressed.

I am not a teacher not a parent of a middle schooler in public school, but since the CRCT, I have been consistently been hearing that there were alignment problems.

By Northview Teachers

May 22, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

What did you all expect to happen when you voted for Kathy (Miss Piggy)Cox and Sonny (Gimme a Chaw) Perdue? Did you expect anything other than incompetence and ignorance to flow in all directions? Did you REALLY think that those two could even define “world-class,” much less raise us out of the educational basement?

The only truly infinite force in the universe must be republican stupidity.

Had enough yet?

By LISA

May 22, 2008 10:34 AM | Link to this

The Ga Department of Education needs to show the same level accountability they insist our children present everyday. Publish the scores and a detailed report explaining if AND why the test and curriculum were out of sync. Once again we pay millions to county and state government to oversee this process and when they fail they just throw up their hands and toss the results. Next time my child flags a test because he studied the wrong material perhaps we should request that the teacher just void the results. Accountability is necessary at all levels of education.

By Ty

May 22, 2008 10:36 AM | Link to this

Why do we always get stuck playing the blame game? Our entire system is in disrepair. Just like the failure of anything, it usually isn’t one person or entity to blame. For the record, I teach HS Math, have an engineering degree from GT and a professional engineering licensein two states (used it for 8 successful years). I was teacher of the year this year, and I have been very successful with respect to test scores. I know so many other INCREDIBLY capable teachers (individuals I look up to!)! Of course we have our bad apples, like any other profession. Stop bashing teachers!

So what are the main factors: transition to GPS(the concept of which I support, but the implementation of which I disagree); more difficult material being pushed at a younger and younger age (children do NOT have the maturity for some of the concepts we throw at them); greedy testing companies; bad lines of communication from the bottom to the top; a hugely growing Hispanic population (many illegal) who don’t know the language (these tests, even math are hugely dependent on reading comprehension); the decline of the family center (so many kids are dealing with home issues that distract from what they need to accomplish at school); more and more technological distractions making it harder to teach(phones, email, video games, 100 channel television); and the list goes on… I am not blaming anyone in particular. Our entire system must change.

I challenge you to create positive discourse. What can we do to change things. Believe me, we all (at least in the teaching profession)are painfully aware of what is wrong now.

PS - From a parent’s perspective, I have not received my daughter’s 6th grade SS scores but she said the test was very difficult.

By DJ

May 22, 2008 10:39 AM | Link to this

WFC - do you think I could afford 5K on a teacher’s salary? Good Lord!

By LikestoBlog

May 22, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

DB - Private schools don’t take the CRCT?

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

How does ANYONE fail a SOCIAL STUDIES test?????

It aint exactly the hardest branch of academia - particularly at the pre-college levels.

This shows me that what I have been saying for quite a few years now is exactly correct:

The kids are getting dumber and dumber.

And at the end of the day, no one but the kids themselves is to blame. The information can LITERALLY be at their fingertips in seconds, and yet they’re too concerned with Hannah Montana.

Truly a sad state of affairs here people…

By anonymous

May 22, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

I’m a high schhol social studies teacher, highly qualified with advanced degrees and National Board Certification. I know and love my subject area.

I am all for projects and incorporating different learning styles and methodologies in my classroom. However, there needs to be a balance between the traditional and the modern. My students are begging to use the book more and have reading guides for the chapters and work on them in class so they can have the guidance of a teacher to help with the book. Don’t get me wrong, we use the book, but in this county it is considered to be a resource, along with many other sources; this is fine too, we use information from many different sources and viewpoints.

However, we have been HIGHLY DISCOURAGED from using lecture as a means of delivery along with reading and answering questions based on the textbook in class. (The co-ordinator for the county threatened us with unsatisfactory evaluations, which is a threat to one’s job, if a full-class lecture or student’s answering questions from the book was encountered during an observation.)

I’m not advocating a return to the 1950s and rote memorization, but students need the balance of fact gathering, processing information with the help of their peers and a professional, as well as being able to express that knowledge in appropriate and creative ways.

Until we are allowed the freedom to acheive that balance in the classroom, the level of understanding that is behind many of these low scores will not increase.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

Question:

Is there ever a case where 02 comes AFTER 03, assuming all other digits are equal?

ANSWER:

If you work in my industry and are working on a similar technology as to what I am building right now, yes, there is a case of 02 coming AFTER 03.

My boss and I just got a kick out of it, so I thought I would share, since the question has mathematical implications.

By DB

May 22, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

LikestoBlog, I can’t answer for all private schools, but the ones that I am familiar with do not take the CRCT. There is some testing, of course, but it is used to evaluate teaching and curriculum effectiveness than for promotional purposes. Of course, parents are given the scores, and areas of concern are red flagged. But in lower grades, their promotion depends on classroom performance, not the test.

By GOP Tertium Quid

May 22, 2008 10:57 AM | Link to this

If Georgia ever needed sufficient reason to provide greater school choice through public charter schools, vouchers, and tuition tax credits, here it is. Throwing out the test scores is a complete waste of tax money. Despite the many, many outstanding teachers in Georgia public schools (far few outstanding administrators, especially in the DOE), schools continue to fall short. Here’s some excellent advice for Secretary Cox, politicians, and whiny, demanding helicopter parents and their whiny slothful kids: stop blaming the teachers, the curriculum, and the test and give teachers more autonomy and control over their subject areas and classrooms while allowing for greater school choice so that parents will be able find the most suitable school for their children. If the kids still perform poorly, then the helicopter parents can gaze into the mirror before assigning blame elsewhere.

By HS Teacher

May 22, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

DJ -

I can one-up you on how the GPS doesn’t match their standardized test questions!

High school physical science GPS states something like (I am paraphrazing): Students will recognize the relationship between electricity and magnetism.

However, the test questions are something like: What is the equivalent resistant in a series circuit with 2 resistors of 3 ohms each?

What I am sharing with you is that high school students and teachers have been struggling with this disconnect for YEARS on the end-of-course tests, the graduation tests, and the GPS. The good teachers have realized to mostly ignor the GPS and “teach to the test” which means to teach those Trivial Pursuit facts. Yeah, we ‘fake it’ on our lesson plans and claim that we follow the GPS. But, we do that for show to the administration to appease the powers.

By the way, I teach at a high school where the science graduation test score passing rates are regularly in the 90s. Are we better teachers? No. We have just learned to adjust to the BS the politicans have forced on us.

IMHO, this is a major major reason we need a real and a strong teacher union in GA. A union would prevent the BS from the politicans that yank us and students from side to side, and let the teachers teach!

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

WFC:

I’ll join in on that contest if you’ll let me!

Jeff, Albany, GA

ajc_jeff@yahoo.com

(Sorry, don’t give out my actual info here, but have no problems giving it to you if you shoot me an email at the above address!)

By Tray

May 22, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

Well, all in all, and i hate to say it, but does school really prepare kids for college/real life nowadays?

In my opinion, the entire system needs to be redone at least state wide, if not nation wide. School no longer prepares kids for what happens outside of mommy and daddy’s home. Many kids are not prepared for the working world when they graduate, and many more have severe issues their first year of college.

Here’s an example i have not yet found an answer to. In middle/high school, many teachers actually care about their student’s well-being, performance, and education. however, go to college-those teachers you have there, most are just concerned with their paycheck! They don’t cae whether you pass/fail/or even show up!

Stop blaming teachers as well! Anyone that blames a teacher-i challenge to teach for a year or two! I have not taught beause i can’t! I know that by the end of my day I’ll have back-handed so many disruptive kids that I’m a lawsuit waiting to happen! Teachers need the power to slap kids right across the face because so many parents aren’t teaching respect and discipline anymore it makes me sick to think my son will have this generation as his bosses!

Parents-shut up and control your kids! Once that happens, teachers can teach what was supposed to be on the test-instead of wasting time on your kid!

While this test is not legit, if some kids passed it, all could have passed it. Maybe if mom and dad would sit with thier kid and help study instead of watching the news or smoking pot, more would have passed!

By Exceptioanl Education

May 22, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

The vast majority of our students were not read to because of the new mandate on overuse of accommodations. Therefore, they DID NOT have any more of an advantage than the GIFTED Population. Yet, clearly they passed Math and Reading at above the rate of the state (60-70%). Why? I am a professional writer and I KNOW MY SUBJECT with or without a textbook. My colleague’s source is a mathematician/engineer. We not only teach the standards and the test, we teach real world knowledge with real world applications. We encourage reading, not only the required reading, but magazines, newspapers, billboards or anything else that can be read. Math to cook, purchase goods, measure room spaces are all encouraged in everyday conversation between teachers and students, as well as peer to peer. If these students with disabilities can do well despite challenges, what the heck is wrong with the rest of the state?

By jim d

May 22, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

McGraw & flawed test questions.

Teachers commenting here may wish to research the hell one of your own was put through a few years ago by Napolalvin in Gwinnett—Google James Hope.

By em

May 22, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

As a Social Studies teacher, the low CRCT scores do not surprise me and, for the past couple of years, have been boring anyone who would listen with my pessimism of implementing so much content in the lower grades. If people would look at the GPS, it has shifted much more content to the lower grades. Many middle school and elementary school teachers are not equipped to teach content because content historically (no pun intended) has not been emphasized in middle grades and elementary education programs. Besides, social studies has always been deemed unimportant. Just look at the new standards to graduate. Students now need four units of math, four units of English, four units of science, but only three units of Social Studies even though it continues to expand. The State Department of Education had a chance to increase the Social Studies requirement last year but didn’t. Social Studies has always been reserved for the coaches because of the “anyone could teach Social Studies” mentality of the education establishment. Now that kids did not fare well on the CRCT, everyone is up in arms. The emphasis on math and English has come back to bite everyone in the butt.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 11:13 AM | Link to this

Tray:

I don’t know about the rest of your politics, but on this subject you and I are brothers from a different mother.

I can’t TELL you how many days I went home and did some SERIOUS physical exertion just to get all the pent up anger out. (That, and I wrote some REALLY nasty blogs on my myspace. Both are my vents, though which I choose depends on exactly how mad I am. If I’m mad enough to go the physical exertion route…. be glad I controlled it well enough to at least postpone its expression!)

By anonymous

May 22, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

I’m proctoring an exam right now and was watching the kids - please don’t crucify me for the spelling error.

By DJ

May 22, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

Em - thanks. That was the point I was trying to make. Not all high school social studies teachers are incompetent, but MANY of those positions are reserved for male coaches. Sorry if I offended anyone.

Oh, and WFC - I may not be able to take you in all areas of history. My husband, however, teaches 7th grade social studies and could whip your proverbial tail.

By Janine

May 22, 2008 11:38 AM | Link to this

anonymous, lisa, hsteacher If the CRCT ,and all other standardized tests that purport to measure learning, are multiple choice, fill in the blank [and most if not all are in that format],does it not follow that curriculum MUST include memorization of facts related to the subject if students are to do well??? There seems to be a disconnect here somewhere.

Another question [I think it was anonymous who mentioned this]: If high school/middle school teaching methods are suppose to use the text only as a resource and rarely if ever use lecture, how are students suppost to transition successfully to college where texts are primary and where lecture is now and always has been, almost exclusively the method used by professors??

I know in my middle school, my colleague who teaches science says the reason she cannot use the text as much as she would like is because the students CANNOT READ the text!

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

DJ:

ANYONE outside of my family beating me in a Social Studies-related contest is RARE, and it aint exactly because I don’t compete. I simply truly am that dang good.

But if you or your husband want to try, you are certainly more than welcome to do so. I thoroughly enjoy the competition!

By HS Science Teacher

May 22, 2008 12:09 PM | Link to this

Jeff, It’s nice to see that you are SO modest as well! Congratulations on being the best at everything. Did you used to throw your Monopoly board and game pieces when you lost? Do you still?

By catlady

May 22, 2008 12:12 PM | Link to this

jimd I agree with you regarding score manipulation. I am surprised they did not do that BEFORE they released these test results. There is NO WAY that kids who didn’t “get it” in 180 days (180 x 2 2/3 hrs per day) of instruction should be able (plausibly) to “get it” after 12 days of summer school, apptx 2 hours per day. Yet, magically, they will! Of our 40 odd 3rd graders who failed the rdg portion, of the 35 or so who come to summer school, magically 25 or so will “pass” the summer CRCT. Now, HOW does that happen? M-A-N-I-P-U-L-A-T-I-O-N of scores.

By catlady

May 22, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

Folks, with the CRCt, as with most anything, FOLLOW THE MONEY! WHO PROFITS?

For example: Humm, McGraw Hill? Who’s their “daddy”?

By Tia

May 22, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

Overall, should the CRCT determine promotion or be used as guide to identify weaknesses, both on an individualized basis as well as a statistical standpoint to understand where the teachers, school and state may need more work in preparing students? If over a course of a year, the standards change, there should be an expecation of a higher failure rate and no child should be penalized because the state is testing theories. In what other industry would something change and years of testing not be done before putting the “product” in production. But many (not all) educators don’t have real world job experience and therefore don’t think and apply basic principles when making decisions. Under most circumstances, because of this, no matter what test is in place, our educators are not equipped to properly prepare our children for anything.

By steve

May 22, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

Lets see - a former social studies teacher in charge of DOE and they are not in sync with the curriculum. Lets see - made Georgia look follsih with her nonsense about evolution. I have just one question - Why is it that Georgia does not release the test so that parents and students can see what it was like? Same company writes the test for Virginia and they release their test every year. Search engine “released tests” + Virginia and you can see what the test looks like. I think the GADOE is trying to hide their own incompetence. Maybe the govenor could pray for a more competent DOE like he did for rain. Then Cox put out that teachers previewed the test. Second question - I wonder what their scores were like. I really wonder if teachers did that or if it is all smoke and mirrors from DOE. I guess we cannot blame DOE since NCLB is based on the lie from the Houston system that George thought was so perfect until it was audited. Is there a politician worth a flip out there? Yes, Cox is a politician too interested in politicing since I doubt she knows much about social studies - or any other curriculum.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

HS Science:

I’m by FAR not the best at EVERYTHING. It just so happens that much of what I am EXTREMELY good at happens to be in academia. Get me outside of an academic environment, however, and you’ll quickly see my weaknesses! (Glaring ones: I BARELY know how to change a tire, I don’t know how to change the oil in a car - nor even check it. I have to watch the odometer and take it in every 3000 miles! I can follow a recipe, but never ask me to cook without one! You DON’T want me trying to fix anything around the house (well, maybe the computer, but that is IT!). Sports? Let’s just say that other than my size factor, I’m really not that good at all. And that’s just a brief list of the more glaring weaknesses!)

INSIDE academia, my primary weaknesses are chemistry and calculus. Beyond those two subjects, however, I’ll take on anyone in any academic contest you name. Like I said, if nothing else, I enjoy the challenge!

By HS Teacher

May 22, 2008 12:27 PM | Link to this

Janine - It is possible to have multiple choice questions and also test higher learning/thinking.

Regarding teaching methods - you are correct. The “powers” of education in GA tell us teachers to not lecture and to make school “fun.” Then students go to college where the professors strictly lecture. There certainly is a disconnect.

By MamaS

May 22, 2008 12:33 PM | Link to this

I said it before and I’ll say it again. The average adult in Georgia would fail the test so why expect kids to know more? 1. Who is the Vice President of the United States? 2. Locate Myanmar on a map of the world. 3. Who is the Prime Minister of Great Britain? 4. What natural disaster occurred in China last week? If you can score 100% then you can complain!

By 7th Social Studies Teacher

May 22, 2008 12:36 PM | Link to this

The test was ridiculous. That was the problem. There is no feasble way to expect these kids the incredibly large amount of material that is in the standards. It is purely a factual test that doesn’t test learning. It only tested whether or not some random fact was remembered from any of the over 80 countried covered. Not to mention that those facts come from history, economics, culture, and geography. It is a ton of information. Not to mention the kids have been exposed to thes hardly at all in their life. They barely know U.S. History. I’ve had students think George Washington was president during the Civil War. These kids have no sense of anything besides reading, writing, and math.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 12:44 PM | Link to this

Mama:

1) Richard Cheney.

2) Southeast Asia, next to Thailand on one side and Cambodia on the other.

3) Until recently it was Tony Blair, but he was defeated in a recent election and I don’t know the current one.

4) Earthquake. South-Central China, which puts it somewhere in the general vicinity of the Himalayas, if I’m not mistaken. (I know it was an earthquake in South Central China. The precise location of where South Central China is in relation to the other countries/mountains is somewhat fuzzy for me.)

By becky mattix

May 22, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY THE STATE’S FAULT. IT IS PAST TIME FOR COX TO GO…..

By Upset Mother

May 22, 2008 12:56 PM | Link to this

My 8th grader is one of those students caught in the Math mess CRCT scores. She happens to be a good student, ‘B’ average. Many of her classmates are ‘A-B’ average students. The math section seemed very hard to them. When the staff is instructed to concentrate on algebra and then at least 50% of the test is geometry that they never studied and not even 10% is algebra, there is a problem. The teachers were not given the right curriculum to teach and now the ‘great head’, our Superintendent, Ms. Cox, penalizes the students for the error of her administration. We are talking about 40% of the 8th graders in the state, this is not a county percentage. That’s a lot of students that you are saying could be retained to do what? They have already shown that they are above average students in academics in the classroom. That makes absolutely no sense.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Follow up to my last (did some digging, previous answers were based on what I had in my head):

2) Myanmar(Burma) shares borders with China to the north and west, Laos and Thailand to the east, and Bangladesh to the west. Southern border is composed of the Bay of Bengal.) Cambodia is indeed to the east of Myanmar, but Thailand is between the two countries.

3) Gordon Brown became the British Prime Minister nearly a year ago, on June 27, 2007.

4) The two closest countries to the affected region in China are Myanmar and Vietnam. Though the region I am seeing as Tibet (a pretty big region, MUCH bigger than I thought Tibet to be) is about as close as Myanmar, so if you consider Tibet a sovereign state I would allow it as a valid country closest to the area affected by the earthquake. South-Central China is an apt description of the area.

By Gag.

May 22, 2008 1:10 PM | Link to this

Wow, Jeff. Color me impressed. Are you single?

By Blog Watch

May 22, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

This is very upsetting for the children that have done great through the year. THEY NEED TO THROW OUT ALL THE TESTS. It is going to cost the state to much money to have these children go to summer school. We should be using the monies for other importnat matters.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 1:13 PM | Link to this

Upset Mother:

You should be upset with your daughter, not the state or the test.

Quite honestly: if you can do algebra, you can do geometry, and vice versa - at least if you know it to the level you should.

And there is ZERO excuse for an EIGTH grader not knowing how many degrees are in a triangle or a straight line, nor what an acute vs obtuse angle is, or any of the other basic geometry facts.

The whole intent of the new program - as far as math is concerned anyway - is to enable kids to solve problems they’ve never before encountered using knowledge they already have.

Therefore the problem is not the state or the test.

It is your precious little girl (said with DRIPPING sarcasm).

Get over it.

By Blog Watch

May 22, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

This is very upsetting for the children that have done great through the year. THEY NEED TO THROW OUT ALL THE TESTS. It is going to cost the state to much money to have these children go to summer school. We should be using the monies for other important matters.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 1:23 PM | Link to this

Last post, and I am shutting up for a while (and the crowd goes WILD!):

Upset:

Bragging that your kid is ‘above average’ in the current educational system is like bragging that your kid is the best player on the Miami Dolphins this past season. It may be true, but how does your kid rank when compared to the ‘74 Dolphins?

I say this because I have personally witnessed the standards eroding throughout my academic career. I first noted it back in the early 90s when I worked my TAIL off to get into the gifted program, only to see the beginnings of the watered down ‘everybody is gifted’ state we have now a couple years later. (I was in gifted classes by 8th grade - 96-97 school year - that wouldn’t have been as good as AVERAGE students 4 years prior.)

While in the classroom, the (then) current state of academic rigor SICKENED me.

Now, it just makes me vomit even THINKING about putting my kid in such a lax system.

Again, it aint the test or the state. Both are going back (finally) in the direction they need to.

The problem with your kid failing/having a difficult time lies with your kid.

By HS Science Teacher

May 22, 2008 1:35 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Then it sounds to me like you have absolutely no common sense and no problem-solving abilities whatsoever.

By etownbrave

May 22, 2008 1:42 PM | Link to this

Summer school and retesting is totally ridiculous for any student. My 7th grade son has a 99 average in SS and 89 in Math and scored just above the minimum. I understand these scores won’t be counted, but what about the turmoil these kids have had to endure, wondering why they failed the tests? My son was upset and I would guess many others were also. How can the DOE justify the cost, time, and effort that these kids and parents will endure this summer!

By pho

May 22, 2008 1:46 PM | Link to this

Concerned parent of an 8th grader.

I heard the news of the crct scores being back and rushed to call my son’s school 1st thing Wed morning. While others were dealing with the fact that they would have to wait for weeks to determine their child’s fate, I received a call back from a Douglas County school counselor within 20 minutes. Unfortunately it was bad news. My son had passed everything but the math section by 25points, that calculated to about 10 questions. I was at least a little comforted by the fact that the counselor was prepared and was able to give me available options immediately.

I had a good talk with my son. I didn’t berate him. I used it as an opportunity to help him understand the consequences of putting your best or worst effort toward any given task. I’m optimistic that he will be able to pass the summer exam and continue his education to high school.

I am not a teacher or a school administration, but I would like to offer the following solutions:

I’m not sure what went wrong with the test, but I do know that the early I’m informed the better.

By Kristy

May 22, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

My 11yr old son was heartbroken and so was I. He passed everything else but failed math by 8 points. I think the system needs to be redesigned to show students what they missed so that they can better themselves in the area in which they are weak in.Its devastating that a child must wait 1 day before their summer starts to know if they have to retake a test which determines their promotion. More needs to be taken inconsideration rather than a state test. I feel like if more teachers were truly committed (let’s be honest all are not,parents also)and not just passing the students by, this one time test at the end of the school year would not be necessary. Hopefully in the future we the parents and students can have a copy of the passed or failed test the students actually take.

By Lisa B.

May 22, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

The breakdown of the 8th grade math CRCT is as follows:

13 questions on Number and Operations (mostly in the form of algebra)

7 questions on Geometry

30 questions on Algebra

10 questions on Data Analysis and Probability. The data analysis questions are algebra.

Except for probability and geometry, the rest of the 8th grade test uses algebraic equations and formulas.

By C.

May 22, 2008 2:37 PM | Link to this

I think the constant emphasis on test taking is way too much. Simply mastering a skill for one test is not really learning for the long run. My child is in the 2nd grade and was anxious last year and this year about the CRCT, manifesting itself in stomach aches, headaches and general crankiness. Will this probably affect his performance on the test? Absolutely! Has he performed well in school throughout the year? Definitely; he hasn’t earned a report card grade lower than a 90%. However, as I was advised by his 1st grade teacher last year, he didn’t even attempt to finish one portion of the test. He just shut down, so his math results were not accurate. This is way to much pressure for a 7 year old that is a well behaved child and a good student. The kicker is he performed well on the MAPP test given by his teacher individually this year and was shown to be an above-average reader and on level in math. I guess I should start drilling him now so he can pull it together next year in 3rd grade or face being left back despite being a good student. Ridiculous!

By Lisa B.

May 22, 2008 2:42 PM | Link to this

30 questions = 50% of the test. Many of the other questions are written in the form of word problems and can be quite difficult as well. I should have said that some of the questions in sections other than the algebra section may LOOK like algebra (or Greek :-) to some students. However, there was little geometry on the test.

By Janine

May 22, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

If I understood Ms. Cox correctly, she stressed that the reason the scores were low was because this is the first year the test was properly aligned with the curriculum…both Social Studies and Math. That really makes no sense at all to me. It seems that scores would be better if what is being taught is what is being tested. Isn’t that what “aligned with curriculum”/ Could someone explain?

By venting mom

May 22, 2008 2:44 PM | Link to this

The State has the audacity to remain rigid on the 8th grade math scores, forcing the failing students to remain in the 8th grade or attend summer school and retake the test (and hope they pass it this time) while the State blinks back tears and begs the Federal government to RELAX SANCTIONS PERTAINING TO ‘NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND’ as there are so many schools that will fail because of these CRCT scores they can’t possibly make THEIR GRADE. I say, if no break can be given to the kids then no break should be given to the school system. They chose to invalidate the Social Studies grades (Supt. Cox is a former Social Studies teacher); why not the Math since they have admitted that there could possibly be a problem as the test relates to the study program? My child has studied and attended tutoring for most of the year to ensure that she make decent grades and she has ended the year with A’s and B’s; she exceeded well above requirements in her AR points; and is a member of the High School marching band (8th grade is allowed). She lacked 14 points passing the Math CRCT. She has a friend who never studies, hardly does his homework, makes poor grades on his report card, never goes to tutoring, yet he passed the Math and is not worried in the least about going to the 9th grade. Something is wrong here.

By Hmm

May 22, 2008 2:47 PM | Link to this

Upset: The GPS standards are available online. They have been for the last couple of years, at least. I was concerned about the CRCTs, so I researched the standards myself. Ultimately, we the parents are responsible for our student’s success, not the school. These standards are published for parents usage. Use them. Compare them to the your kid’s Math syllabus. Are the standards covered? If not, ask why. Make sure they’re covered either by your school or yourself.

The Geometry on the exam was very basic, seriously. We covered it in less than one day of review. Most of it was learned in 6th grade and he just remembered. A couple of things he had to lookup in his book. For example, he couldn’t remember the difference between complimentary and supplementary angles. And, yes, those are specifically mentioned in the standards.

By C.

May 22, 2008 2:51 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

In re your comments: “You should be upset with your daughter, not the state or the test. Quite honestly: if you can do algebra, you can do geometry, and vice versa - at least if you know it to the level you should.”

You sure are smug. Algebra and Geometry are two different concepts. In high school I performed very well in Algebra (“A” average) but for the life of me could not score higher than a “C” in Geometry and worked hard to earn that “C.” By the way, I earned an “A” in Calculus in my freshman college year, am working towards obtaining a Masters in Accounting, but to this day, I still don’t get Geometry. If I need to use geometry in my daily life, my husband can measure and hopefully, if the need arises, he remembers the Pythagoream (sp?) Theorem

By Janine

May 22, 2008 2:54 PM | Link to this

VENTING MOM:..In my middle school, NO STUDENT has ever been kept in the same grade because he/she didn’t pass the CRCT/ They always SAY the will be held back , but they never are. Anyone else have the same experience?

By Hmm

May 22, 2008 3:20 PM | Link to this

C: The level of Geometry in 8th grade exams is elementary. It is not high school or college level. The challenging differences between Algebra and Geometry do not present until at least high-school. At that point, many find they’re better at one than the other. Jeff is correct in his assessment, at least as it applies to 8th graders.

By mystery poster

May 22, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

dummies: I hope you didn’t homeschool your kids in the use of apostrophes since you aren’t using them correctly. “They have degree’s.”

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

C:

Most any math can be seen from multiple angles with an advanced enough knowledge. (To the tune that I could probably realistically learn Calculus if I knew another way to think about it. I know such a way exists, I just don’t know the exact methodology.)

Point being that the link between Algebra and Geometry doesn’t exactly take a rocket scientist to figure out. The problem is that until GPS we have been TRAINING people to think of them as distinct when really they are not.

GPS does away with this distinction training, and that is a GREAT thing for a mathematician to hear!

By alc

May 22, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

It’s always easier to point the finger the other way, but as someone said earlier, PARENTS are responsible for their children’s success or failure. How were some students able to pass the tests? I find it interesting that there was no whining after the tests were taken. Do y’all realize that many of these “honor” students are the results of INFLATED grades? So, this is not great surprise!!! The problem is that they are not analytical/critical thinkers. I see it every day at the college level.

By RandolphCountyAdmin.

May 22, 2008 3:39 PM | Link to this

I see that Jeff is up to his usual shenanigans. From reading his posts he appears to have all the answers. In the classroom it was a different story. One of the saddest sights I have seen was a grown (Jeff) man reduced to tears by kids, and then proceed to cuss at the kids and challenge them to fight. And to this day he feels that he was done wrong.

By Hmm

May 22, 2008 3:40 PM | Link to this

Jeff: Many children and adults never make the connection you’re referring to. Math, in my opinion, is two-faced. You have the very factual, concrete, numerical, detailed side. But, then there’s a whole separate conceptual and theoretical side. Geometry, for me, was the first step of the latter. Many, many, many people will never connect the two sides. I don’t think it’s a reasonable expectation.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 3:50 PM | Link to this

RCA:

Now I KNOW you’re a troll. I never cried in front of the kids, and I’ve only ever cussed in the classroom TWICE - both times from exasperation at my own mistake in some technique I was showing the kids. (Minor, but I had made it about 20 minutes earlier and not noticed it until the end of the example.)

Best bet is that you’re Lee, as I haven’t seen him around recently.

By Been There; Done That

May 22, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

Oh, where to start????

yes, there is a disconnect between the way the GPS was presented to teachers and the way the standards have been tested. The talk from the DOE, since the introduction of the GPS, was to teach to the broader concepts and not discreet knowledge and skills. The social studies test - and for that matter the DOE bigwigs - are locked in the discreet knowledge and skills box! yes, Andrew Lloyd Webber is in the curriculum for 6th grade Social Studies. How many of you would think knowing his name and his contributions to “the culture of the world” would be one of the most important things to learn in social studies class? But the question was on the test!

Even the training program from the DOE changed from the beginning to the current cycle. The concept of backward design, teaching for understanding, was replaced with unit development laden with memorization of fact. Is it really important to know every date on a time line or to be able to understand cause and effect and use that knowledge to decipher which event took place first?

If you want teachers to teach the standards, to follow the ideas of teaching for understanding, then you have to test using the same idea.

Now…Jeff…I am sorry you worked your tail off to be gifted. Someone should have explained to you that you are either gifted or your are not. That is not something you can achieve by working hard. Having taught gifted students for many years, I can tell you the requirements are not watered down. Students must qualify in multiple areas now. And regardless of how hard one works, they cannot force themselves to be creative or study to increase their IQ.

By C.

May 22, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

Hmm:

What would be considered basic for a middle school? My second grader has had what I would guess be considered basic geometry in his 2 years of school (shapes, measurements, etc.) Luckily, I have mastered geometry up to 2nd grade :0) I don’t really remember having geometry in junior high school (in the ’80s NY still had junior high schools instead of middle schools) I do agree w/ your post to Jeff that Geometry is theoretical and conceptual. That is probably why I just don’t get it.

By Hmm

May 22, 2008 4:16 PM | Link to this

Been There: Gifted criteria has changed over the years, but maybe Jeff is referring to the crazy “High Achiever” options lately. They are frequently lumped together with the true gifted children.

Second, Hard Work is required for the Gifted program. If you don’t maintain an A/B average in your classes, you will be dropped from the Gifted program. Kids are or are not gifted, agreed. If a kid is struggling with organization and priorities, they’ve somehow dropped IQ points too?! Also, the state criteria clearly has a Motivation and Achievement element right now.

By C.

May 22, 2008 4:17 PM | Link to this

Jeff:

I Could never link Algebra and Geometry. I agree w/ Hmm that Geometry is theoretical and conceptual. You can’t discount the way people are wired to think. I am concrete and my brain did not grasp the abstract nature of geometry.

By Hmm

May 22, 2008 4:41 PM | Link to this

C: I consider Basics of Geometry appropriate for upper elementary and middle school to contain topics such as these:

right angles, obtuse, acute, congruence, perpendicular, parallel, all sorts of angle properties.

Also, the very beginnings of Proofs (or simply vocabulary) should be introduced in middle school.

By Ray

May 22, 2008 5:14 PM | Link to this

Now I know why Jeff is upset, he could not manage the classroom and has no credibility. You cursed at children because you had no control of your classroom or yourself. I have seen your name all over this blog, must be still out of work. You were one of the main reasons that student were not living up to their ability. PRETTY pitiful.

By A

May 22, 2008 5:15 PM | Link to this

GPS assumes that the children come into a grade with a certain level of knowledge from the previous grade…..when new standards are implemented there is a gap between the new and the old curriculum and thus a lot of students struggle. Therefore, the first year of implementation it is expected for a higher percentage of students to fail. This will work itself out in a couple of years.

By mom x 4

May 22, 2008 5:28 PM | Link to this

I know of 3 6th graders that were laughing because they made a Christmas tree pattern on their score sheet and passed. Quit critizing the teachers or the teaching… The test was horrible…those of you placing blame on the school need to look at a few of the questions….Do you KNOW what the currency of CHAD is? Geez….get rid of Kathy Cox. Let’s use some common sense about fixing Georgia’s education. (and quit throwing AWAY my tax dollar on junk like this)

By catlady

May 22, 2008 6:50 PM | Link to this

Janine, in my county NO child is held back, altho we have a high number of failures on the test. So it is not just your county. What I cannot understand is why the state does not come knocking about why there are no retentions. They KNOW the kids failed. How can they not question why we have no retentions?

By Lee

May 22, 2008 7:07 PM | Link to this

“Best bet is that you’re Lee, as I haven’t seen him around recently”

Sorry Jeff, not me. Sounds like you’ve grated on someone else’s nerves.

By the way, I really like this quote from you:

“I could probably realistically learn Calculus…..”

Saaaayyyy, ain’t you a CERTIFIED MATH TEACHER?

Don’t believe I would have told that one brother.

By Jeff

May 22, 2008 8:37 PM | Link to this

Lee:

I’ve never hidden my difficulties with Calc from anyone. When I interviewed at Newton - and every other HS - I flat out told them “You do NOT want me anywhere near a Calc class, nor do I want to be in front of one. I can handle anything else you throw my way, but Calc and me do NOT get along.”

Ray:

I’ve always sold myself - in EITHER of my professional careers - as a subject matter expert first and foremost. If you want a consumate professional, look somewhere else. If you want the BEST programmer around who is professional 99.99% of the time, I’m your guy.

Much of the problem with teaching these days is that they are too concerned with being ‘professional’ and nowhere NEAR concerned enough with knowing their sh!t. Me, I’m the exact opposite. I’m going to know my crap 10 ways to Sunday, and if I don’t I’m going to learn it and GET that good with it.

And as an old programming prof once told me (SHE was both a mathematician and a programmer, as were many of my early profs): A lot of people say you learn to cuss when you learn how to play golf. Those people have never programmed a computer. THIS is where you REALLY learn to cuss!

I managed to bite my tongue quite a few times when in any other environment I would have made a SAILOR blush. I managed to appear calm, cool, and collected on NUMEROUS times when I wanted to put the kid in front of me in the hospital almost as much as I wanted to breathe again. I even managed to not let my kids have any clue what was happening to me when my life was crumbling out from underneath my very eyes and it was ALL I could think about.

And you want to criticize me for slipping with a cuss word on two MINOR occassions?

I’ve FORGOTTEN more about professionalism than you’ll ever know. And yet I STILL maintain that we need less bakers in the world. We need more FRUITCAKES! (What can I say, I find myself agreeing with Buffett a lot these days!)

By Realization

May 22, 2008 9:09 PM | Link to this

Has anyone even considered…..

Cox and company wanted this outcome? Think about it. With such extremely low scores, what will the direction be next year? Up, of course!

Guess who will take credit for a huge jump in percentage improvement? Cox will, of course! Is that an election year for her?

Maybe she ain’t as dumb as we think.

By Competitive

May 22, 2008 9:47 PM | Link to this

The post about all of the problems in edfucation stemming from the Republicans is quite funny. I believe Georgia was thanking God for Mississippi and Alabama being last on the educational ladder during the Democrats 100+ years of control over state government. Republicans have only controlled the state government for less than 10 years. Maybe many adults need to sit in on some 8th Grade Georgia History classes!

By Competitive

May 22, 2008 9:58 PM | Link to this

I think Georgia should publish the Social Studies tests and the results. We need to see these tests to determine what really went wrong. I believe there is plenty of blame to go around, parents teachers, students, administrators, politicians, etc. Blaming isn’t going to fix the curriculum and/or the test used to determine if a student has learned it. We already have a published curriculum, now we need the test. The test scores are needed to see patterns of success and failure, which we can learn from. It seems as if the DOE is looking for the wimpy way out.

Also, if your child makes all A’s and B’s in a specific subject, then fails that subject on the CRCT, I think some blame lies with the teacher and his/her grading policies. I’ve never had a student fail the CRCT who did not make D’s or failing grades in my class. I also agree with the post that parents need to compare the published curriculum to what is being taught and tested in the classroom. They should also consider questioning high grades on assignments where students perform poorly, unlike some who question why poor performance receives low grades.

By addy

May 22, 2008 11:20 PM | Link to this

In thinking carefully about what to say, I wanted to clarify a few points about the CRCT and 7th grade Social Studies. 1. The test was HARD, my best students said it was harder than Science. (By the way the Science test already has switched over to GPS - and they had a drop in scores that year but have improved since then) 2. At least in my system, teachers are held very accountable for teaching the GPS as they are written but there were several changes to what was taught this year.
3. Teachers had to teach 36 weeks of curriculum in less than 30 weeks in order to teach all necessary material before the tests. 4. I know that I use a variety of quality teaching strategies and have high expectations for my students and managed a pass rate in excess of 80% but I made certain that I was teaching the GPS all year (and there were things I have taught in the past that I had to leave out due to the changes from QCC to GPS) so it was possible but very difficult for students to do well. 5. As all teachers feel I am sure I would love to see higher order questions instead of Trivial Pursuit type questions - but we really aren’t supposed to read the test - I certainly would never want to know EXACTLY what will be on the test… If you “teach to the test” then you are really just shorting the student

From a Middle School teacher who does teach Social Studies every day.

By Been There; Done That

May 22, 2008 11:30 PM | Link to this

Hmm, You are right in saying that motivation and achievement are part of the critieria for being eligible as “gifted.”

You are also right in your statement about gifted kids being pulled from gifted classes for not maintaining grades (I really disagree with this!…If a kid is truly gifted, they often fail to see the reason behind doing some of the busy work they are given in some classes and simply don’t do it…or they are unorganized and don’t turn things in…this does not mean they are no longer gifted!)

I was just pointing out to Jeff that working hard is not what makes you gifted. It might help with motivation. Could help in achievement. But creativity, if measured correctly, and aptitude are difficult to increase by working hard.

Of course, I have learned that trying to give Jeff any new information is a futile exercise. He seems to think he knows everything already!

By Jeff

May 23, 2008 5:22 AM | Link to this

Been there:

Aptitude can be influenced. You can train your brain to think faster and more efficiently, as well as to make connections that most people won’t see - even though they are perfectly logical. SOME call that creativity, I call it subject matter expertise. As in: If I truly know the subject in question, I’ll be able to tie it in nearly anywhere and explain myself to a degree that ANYONE can understand me.

THOSE are the areas that I trained in all those years ago. Primarily making my brain think faster and making my hands write faster. (If I remember correctly, the primary thing I failed on was writing the answers to random math facts - age appropriate, to a degree, so you’re basically talking addition/subtraction of up to 2 digits, multiplication/division of whole numbers through 12.)

And it was the ‘creativity’ aspect that was getting most of those truly non-worthy kids in, if I remember correctly. You no longer had to be smart, just ‘creative’. When I had gotten in, you had to prove that you were basically one of the three smartest people in your grade at your school. (When I first got in, you went once a week to an off-campus site all day for gifted. Every ES in the county - there were FAR fewer in Bartow then than now - sent 3 kids or so. Ironically enough, I wound up visiting that same campus about 5 years or so later, when it was the alternative school!)

Interestingly, those off-campus gifted days were my introduction to two things that would become much of the basis of who I am both professionally and personally: I encountered my first real class in logic there, as well as some extremely BASIC programming. Little did I know…

As far as telling me new information: I readily accept new information. But I insist that it either be consistent with previous knowledge or that it be verified by some external source.

Now, I know we have teachers here who have been teaching 20 and 30 years, so can someone please verify for me what the requirements for gifted education were PRIOR to the 94-95 school year vs since (specifcally in the range of fall 94 - spring 97)? I know that is when I observed the change happen, and I think it may have begun in the fall of 94.

By Been There; Done That

May 23, 2008 6:15 AM | Link to this

Jeff, I was teaching gifted students in the years you are asking about. Depending on the grade level, you had to have a score of >96%ile on a norm referenced test in the area of Math or Reading. You also had to have an IQ score in the 96%ile or higher. Exceptions were made to the rules by many schools in order to serve (and therefore get increased fundng) students who were academically successful but did not met the psychometric measures that were accepted as “gifted.” Some schools elected to serve the top 5% of the school/grade level. Unfortunately, this was based purely on grades in some places.

The revisions to the state criteria were made in the late 90’s and were put in place through the work of some of the most respected gifted educators in the nation. Students have to qualify in three of four areas. And yes, creativity is one of those, but students are not qualified as gifted based on just that score (if done correctly, it is based on a valid and reliable test). Motivation, creativity, achievement, and aptitude/IQ are all considered. Rarely does a “non-worthy” student manage to qualify under these guidelines.

Feel free to verify my information with an “external source.” I happen to be one of those with 20 years of experience.

By retired teacher

May 23, 2008 6:32 AM | Link to this

Cathy Cox should take the social studies and math CRCT and HER score should be the new cut-off. I’m betting lots more students would pass with that new cut-off score.

By Been There; Done That

May 23, 2008 6:41 AM | Link to this

One more point…being gifted and being served in a gifted program are not necessarily the same thing!

By jim d

May 23, 2008 7:09 AM | Link to this

So Dana,

I know you’re reading.

Care to coment? Care to give us the straight scoop or are you obligated to continue supporting your boss’s deception and just feed us the offical line?

Yeah, that’s kinda what I thought.

By Hmm

May 23, 2008 7:58 AM | Link to this

Been There: I’m biased on some of this. My son was affected by the gifted “continuation policy” in GA while in middle school. Middle school, of all places, the swamps of any education system. It’s so incredibly refreshing to hear someone, anyone, agree that gifted kids shouldn’t be booted from the program supposedly designed for their specific needs. When you’re dealing with a highly intelligent kid, it’s an entirely different ballgame. They learn, listen, work, study, socialize, play, and more completely different from non-gifted peers. But, when you mention to people in GA about the antiquated gifted policy regulations, they say “well if the kid wasn’t doing the work, they shouldn’t get the benefit of the program.” GA is so big on punitive consequences, it amazes me. I mean, to what end, people. To What End? All of the National Gifted Policy Makers scream that gifted children should NOT be denied services due to poor grades in non-gifted classes. It doesn’t help them, motivate them, or anything positive. It hurts them and ensures their failure.

Because he was booted and placed into general education classes in middle school, it only got worse. You can’t take a kid that already knows what you’re teaching and expect him to just sit there, while you condescend and berate everyone around him. Since these kids learn so fast, one day of coursework is generally enough for them to make all the connections that another kid would take 1-2 weeks. Many of these kids want to see the big picture first, too. That’s not the way general classes work. They start with the easy and progressively get harder material. A gifted kid asks Why is this the math fact and literally shuts down until they understand the whys. Their mind can’t even process the simple facts until they understand the final result, the bigger proof, and/or ideas. It’s just going to make the kid shutdown mentally, immerse themselves in a real book (self-education) or real work (drawing, writing). It took for 7 years to realize this about my own kid. I wouldn’t have understand all this without doing the following …

After 1 month of general classes, I withdrew my son and schooled from home. He exceeded expectations on Reading and Math and met on History, Science, and Language Arts. Next year, he starts public high school. I’m sure that the students will have matured a bit by then, I hope? But, most importantly, the high school has regular, honors, and gifted core class levels. Then, there’s AP. The importance of receiving gifted service in GA is not as crucial at the high school level. I hope!

By Ugh

May 23, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this

If you don’t teach the grade or subject that is affected, please don’t comment. You really have no idea what you’re talking about. I teach 6th grade social studies. I sat through the training, I read and taught the standards. I taught everything in the 13 pages of standards. I just don’t understand , if you see the clear evidence that it is an issue between standard and test question, HOW can you be blame the teachers, again? Like we’ve never heard that before. We are the most commented on profession. Everyone THINKS they can be a teacher, but obviously not or we wouldn’t have a shortage. And hsteacher, you are ridiculous. I guess most of what you say is for shock value. Or you are the cockiest person blogging (and that Jeff thing too). When you start teaching my grade and my subject then comment all you want. Until then, please stop.

By Hmm

May 23, 2008 8:41 AM | Link to this

Wow, Ugh. This is open forum, not just for teachers. I’m the parent of an 8th grader affected by the 8th grade Math madness. I don’t believe for one bit the problems are the teachers, but I also know that there are good and bad seeds in all professions.

Even the original post asks PARENTS and TEACHERS, as well as anyone else.

By Jeff

May 23, 2008 8:50 AM | Link to this

Been There:

While I can’t prove this based on information I know right now, shortly after I posted that last I remembered a certain law from my EXC class that could have been the difference in that time frame that I mentioned:

IDEA ‘94.

Based on what I know about the law - and granted, Spec Ed was never my specialty - it certainly seems plausible that the changes in the gifted program I observed as a 10 and 11 year old kid were due to that law coming into play.

Again, in this arena I primarily know what I saw as a student on the ground living with the decisions made by adults. I didn’t have the reasoning capacity back then that I do now, and now that I have the reasoning capacity my memories from the era are vague. (Basically what I’ve already said in regards to multiple tests, finally getting in, and then the program changed shortly thereafter.)

By WFC

May 23, 2008 8:55 AM | Link to this

DJ and JEFF: Wouldn’t it be great if all social science teachers (and bloggers) had to battle it out in a public intellectual contest?

And DJ: You might want to let your husband speak for himself if money is on the line. Not dissing him, don’t even know him. Just saying… my tail hasn’t been whipped very often.

No knowlledge is trivial. I could always defeat my AP Euro and AP US classes in battles of critical/analytical thinking even though they were super bright. The reason was simple: I had a much better factual foundation upon which to build my higher order thinking. Some of them could no doubt take me now.

A good lecture/discussion is still the most efficient method of imparting knowledge. A well-conceived cooperative project is useful about once per semester but not the rinky-dink junk I saw passing as “differentiated instruction” during the last five years of my career.

By Hmm

May 23, 2008 9:56 AM | Link to this

I’m really surprised at a lot of the comments discussing adult intelligence. Comments such as adults’ ability to remember trivial information from their school years and adults’ inability to pass these tests. It has nothing at all to do with the issue at hand. In my opinion, adults remembering trivial information from their school years is a huge negative to any education system.

If one of my peers at work passed or exceeded these exams, I would simply know not to play them in trivial pursuit. The stuff on these exams is not meant to be recalled throughout your life. It’s preparation for the more important things you must learn later.

I personally wouldn’t be able to pass these SS exams. But, then again, I haven’t been studying SS in the past 15 years. I shouldn’t be expected to pass these exams. Folks saying that the tests can’t be passed by adults, so they should be marked invalid - that’s crazy talk. If you can’t pass an exam that you’ve been studying for, such as computer networking for your job… then that’s an issue!

I would probably pass the Math, because I’m good at puzzles and Math. I would pass the Reading, because I can read and analyze. I might not pass Language Arts if they’re asking what the perfect present tense or some kooky non-sense. Seriously, who uses this type of information in their day jobs (excluding teachers of course)? I would pass Language Arts if it’s primarily about correct grammar, because that’s a real-life useful skill. I know so much Science stuff because I read many Science journals, but I probably wouldn’t pass the Science exams. None of this matters for these exams, though! It would an extremely sad state of education if our ability to pass these exams was required for test approval.

Someone brought up the WA state WASL somewhere. I used to live In WA. That test received so much anger, but grade promotion didn’t depend on it when we lived there. Parents in that state bonded together and refused to allow their children to take the CRCT. They would just keep them out of school and some schools start offering refusal slips instead. The ITBS focuses on fact regurgitation, where the WASL focuses on knowledge application. That’s a good thing! Our goals shouldn’t be “can you name the first state superintendent?”, but rather how can we apply our GA History knowledge to our lives such as “if a bill doesn’t pass, what might have happened?” or “every student in a state fails an exam, who might you contact?”.

The new GA exams are headed in that direction, especially on the Math front. I’ve very pleased with that. But, like I’ve said, I think the policies should be relaxed, there should be more research into preparing these children before failing/retaining them, and the state department should be overhauled.

By ugh

May 23, 2008 10:00 AM | Link to this

Sure, hmmm, you can blog and comment on anything. I should rephrase. What I’m very concerned about is that many bloggers jump to the conclusion of what the problem is, without knowing all the answers. Read back through the comments and see how teachers take a beating. It’s appalling. We do have such a hard job and we get public lashings when anything goes wrong. We are not lowering standards by tossing out a faulty test. And that is ALL it is. But, according to these blogs, teachers don’t know their content and we’re not doing our job. Yes, every profession has bad seeds, but I have taught in several school systems and that is the exception rather than the rule. Like I’ve said before, you teach whatever walks in the door. I did not give birth to these kids, raise these kids, read to them at night, etc. It is not my job, I get them one hour a day. Sit in a classroom and experience what we have to deal with. HOWEVER! In this case, it was a state department error and that’s all.
And just for kicks here, Cathy Cox spoke with a colleague of mine yesterday. She said she went over the social studies test and only 32 of the 70 questions were valid. SO, if she could figure that out in 2 days, why did we get to this point???

By Jeff

May 23, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

WFC:

I defintely think we should have a contest at some point, just because now you’ve got me curious as to exactly who would win.

I say we have some third person come up with the questions (maybe even have Laura do a post asking for questions, which she then puts together… might be too much work on her though), meet at a bar somewhere and go for it. Winner gets bragging rights and a beer from the loser.

Most certainly agree with the last two paras in your last post!

By meme

May 23, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

Janine We have had several 8th graders repeat because of their CRCT scores. However, the 6th graders are not held back at the elementary school.

C I agree about the geometry. Of course, I have never been good at math.

Hmm What do you mean by saying that middle school is the swamp on an eduction system?

BTW - I teach 6th grade LA/Reading and my student pass rate was 92.4%. Thank goodness. It has been worse.

By Hmm

May 23, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

Ugh: There will always be those type of parents and they will breed those type of kids. Do you really need to pay attention to them? It damages teacher’s internal motivation and outward performance.

I’ve found a mix of good and bad in Dekalb schools. In this day, with everything I’ve seen and read, I simply cannot assume the teacher has my child’s best interests at heart. To find that sort of teacher in an overcrowded public school setting with many problems, that’s definitely the exception. So, yes, at times I know that even I can come across as “blaming the teacher”. And, unfortunately, because I’m such a blunt person, they usually pick that up in face-to-face meetings. Sigh. :(

By Hmm

May 23, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

meme - Middle schools are notorious for kids miserably languishing in barely-academic, socialization-focused, and delinquent-heavy authoritarian environments. Massive reforms are underway in middles all across the country. I’m not saying all of them are like this, but our local was definitely not a mentally, intellectually, or even physically healthy environment. The local high school is a huge improvement over the middle, but we’re moving to Gwinnett.

It’s usually not about the teachers at all. I’m mostly talking about my local school now. The entire structure of a middle school is very demeaning to adolescents. How can we expect them to mature if we don’t allow them the room to mature? Children this age need to build and/or show their independence. Teachers still treated them like elementary students not capable. They expected nothing less than complete and blind obedience, without opinion or questions. All classes had way too many social projects. Add a healthy dose of teenage hormones. Ick.

What a middle school should do is provide a high-academic and exploratory education. It should begin or continue developing deeper critical skills, in preparation for more advanced and strenuous highschool work. Fact regurgitation (ie, stupid human tricks) is hogwash at this age.

Struggling kids should be helped by testing for mild learning disabilities (such as CAPD, dysgraphia, dyscalculia), closely followed, mentored, and more. Whatever it takes to bring them up.

Social assignments need to die immediately. Too many kids let the smarter kids do the work for them. A project or two per class should be team/partner based, max.

By meme

May 23, 2008 11:25 AM | Link to this

Thanks, Hmm. I don’t agree with everything you said but you made a lot of great points. I do not teach in Gwinnett County and am very proud of that fact. I have relatives that teach there in the middle school and they are really tired of the politics.

By Hmm

May 23, 2008 11:52 AM | Link to this

Oops, I meant to say middle school should begin or develop deeper critical thinking skills… Left out a word and it changes the whole sentence. Ha.

By catlady

May 23, 2008 8:25 PM | Link to this

Struggling kids should be helped by testing for mild learning disabilities (such as CAPD, dysgraphia, dyscalculia)

hmm, that won’t be happening. With RTI, a child needs to have SEVERE mental handicapped to even qualify for testing.

By ga

May 23, 2008 10:29 PM | Link to this

There are many factors behind the poor 6th & 7th grade social studies crct scores. Last year, under the old curriculum, 30% correct equalled a 300 (minimum passing score) on the 6th grade social studies crct. This year students needed to correctly answer 53% of the questions. We taught the standards, used the crct practice questions from the state website, taught “test-taking strategies,” used unit ideas from the state, yet many of my students had a difficult time retaining the material. They thought the concepts and material were “hard.” In their minds “hard” meant they had to work at learning (studying, doing homework, etc.) And yes, due to all the talk about passing math and reading, they didn’t think the social studies crct counted. I talked to them about the “state law” for 5th and 8th graders, but let them know that ALL the tests counted. My students entered 6th grade with very little background in social studies. This year we covered Europe from the Renaissance to the present day, Latin American ancient civilizations through present day Latin America, Canada, and Oceania. They were required to learn history, geography, economics,government, and culture for the areas, and particular countries. That’s a lot of material for 11 and 12 year olds with no background in the subject. If anyone is interested, go georgiastandards.org and look at the standards and elements. The elements state the material that should be covered. We need to help students reach a level of success in a more rigorous curriculum than they are used to achieving. This may take a couple of years.

By Jeff Grant

May 23, 2008 10:49 PM | Link to this

throw out Kathy Cox and anyone else that supports the CRCT test, they probably have as much common sense as a rock. All taxpayers should be concerned with this test. weeks prior to the test, there are tutorial classes being given on the CRCT test, which requires teachers to be paid, cost of utilities to keep the shools open later, special bus transportation for these kids in the tutorial classes. after the CRCT those that fail have to attend summer school where teachers are paid, more school utilities, bus drivers and bus operating cost “FUEL”. AFTER summer school. the schools get their scores, then the schools that did not perform well are deemed low scoring schools, therefore parents can choose a higher scoring school for their child to go to and guess what? special bus transportation is provided to pick these kids up outside their school district and take them to the school they want to attend. so what is school districting for? I’m a bus driver and i know my short bus route takes 65 gallons of fuel per week AT around $4.35 per gallon. now think of how many buses there are in georgia and how many will have summer school routes which are usually long routes, i know there will be 20-25 buses running summer routes in my county. The effects of the crct is costing taxpayers too much.

By catlady

May 24, 2008 8:29 AM | Link to this

Perhaps it is time to hold state officials “back” since they have not show competency in test design. The kids are penalized for not demonstrating competency; therefore, the state officials not showing competency should be dismissed immediately, starting at the top. NOT given a second chance (“summer school” for DOE) to show competency. They are responsible for getting it right the first time. Fire or recall them!

I have had to read the crct to students a number of times over the last several years. Quite a few of the questions, even at a low grade level, could have multiple correct answers, if someone had some degree of knowledge about the subject. Are the test constructors such dullards?

Until the state can show competency, the children’s scores should not be held over their heads.

By margaret

May 24, 2008 9:55 AM | Link to this

I say we send one person to a state where there are excellent test results. Have that person get a copy of the instructions for the teachers in that state. Then return to Georgia, make many copies and use those to instruct the teachers in Georgia. Allow the Georgia teachers to teach that material, require the students to learn it. If this means that all the computer games and feel-good activities have to stop - well, let them stop - and DO NOT start that nonsense up until grades actually warrant allowing minor distractions. This is what back to basics is. As a side bar, maybe this will reduce my property tax - or at least keep it within the bounds of inflation. I am fed up with seeing other states excel in education - where their school taxes are less than HALF of what I pay, and that lower tax is for properties 2 to 3 times more expensive than mine. We are not getting the VALUE for our money and our children are LOSING. VOTE OUT COX - her political priorities are way out of line with our childrens needs.

By red

May 24, 2008 10:36 PM | Link to this

I am in Houston county and we have not yet received our CRCT scores yet(we=the parents) Does anyone know how I can get my hands on the scores for my district? I have an 8th who may be affected.

By Tammy

May 25, 2008 11:41 AM | Link to this

I thought all of you might find this interesting. This is the correspondence that went on between Dana Tofig and myself. I think we can fight the education laws - if your with me please contact me @ kastms2008@yahoo.com and lets make a change.

On Sun, 5/25/08, Kerry Shuman kastms2008@yahoo.com wrote:

Date: Sunday, May 25, 2008, 2:11 AM

Dear Dana,

First and foremost, I wanted to let you know that both of my children DID pass the GCRCT. Now with that said hopefully you will now see the validity in my argument and know that there is no passing the buck on this one. I noticed how each and every one of my questions received no response from you. Although I truly appreciate the fact that you took the to time respond, your letter of patronization doesn’t really work with me. You are far smarter than I could have ever expected. You proved your intellect when you stated that you knew the letter would not appease me, so why write it? I am only asking the obvious. Now with that said, I am really pleased that you let me know the Georgia Department of Education’s main responsibility is to implement testing. It’s good to know that you and all the others at the GDOE are truly not responsible for anything more because I would hate to know such ignorant and unintelligent people were running that part of our state government.

I also really appreciate you explaining the state and federal government to me. Although, your rhetoric is truly helpful, I already knew all of that. I know more than you think. But it is truly great that you assume that most of us don’t meet up to your intelligence level. Speaking of intelligence level, my friends and I we’re trying to find out your educational background. We looked high and low and couldn’t find anything on DANA TOFIG? Just wondering. Anyway, I will try to give you and your department some constructive criticism or constructive questioning, since my others were to difficult to answer.

So,let me start. How do explain the fact that you knew that the test scores would be low and still didn’t inform the teacher that the curriculum changed in math? How do you explain accountability for the outcome? Why is Kathy not held accountable? I also saw that your organization are not only a test implementer but the GDOE is also concerned with our BMI of our children and it seems as if you were leading the battle . Call me crazy but BMI evaluation falls out of the realm of test implementation. Thank you anyway for your concern with regards to my children. Which leads me to ask the question about yours…do your children go to public school? There was nothing that you stated in your response to me that would imply the fact that your children are IN FACT in public school. Beyond that, there are so many inconsistencies with you and your organization. With that said, once again I will ATTACH THE LETTER that I sent to you and your boss, Mrs. Cox that you seem to have not gotten. Please read it, then you will gain insight of where I am coming from.

Once again, I look forward to your comments and I truly appreciate the that you took the time to write back.

Best (as always),

Tammy Shuman

—- On Sat, 5/24/08, Dana Tofig DTofig@doe.k12.ga.us wrote:

From: Dana Tofig DTofig@doe.k12.ga.us Subject: Re: GET REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To: kastms2008@yahoo.com Date: Saturday, May 24, 2008, 6:12 PM

Tammy,

I’m sorry if my comments in the AC today upset you. Additionally, I do not know what letter you are referring to, so I’m not sure if I have read it or not. As you can imagine, we’ve received a lot of letters and emails this week.

Either way, I certainly understand your anger and don’t expect anything I write to you to diminish that.

With that said, however, the decision to test students and to have grades in which the tests are high stakes was not the decision of the Georgia Department of Education. It is mandated by state laws passed by the legislature in 2000, as well as Federal law. The GaDOE’s responsibility is to execute the testing program.

Obviously, you will disagree with me, but I do believe the Department, and Superintendent Cox specifically, have been accountable for the problems of the social studies exams in grades 6 & 7. The Superintendent has said that something went wrong and we should disregard the results of those tests. She has accepted the responsibility for that and has begun the process for improvement.

However, those two exams are the only ones that we feel have had any problems this year. The mathematics tests were well-aligned to the curriculum and the pass rate appears to be in line with what we have seen in math in other grades.

Again, I do not expect what I’m writing to you to diminish your anger but I did want to respond.

I do, in fact, have two children and the vast majority of the people who work at GaDOE have children or grandchildren in the public schools — including the Superintendent.

If you have any constructive suggestions for improving the testing process, I’d be happy to send them along to the committee that is reviewing the issues with grade 6 & 7 Social Studies.

Have a good weekend,

Dana

Dana Tofig Director of Communications Office of Policy and External Affairs Georgia Department of Education 2062 Twin Towers East Atlanta, GA 30334 (404) 463-1487 - Office (404) 656-0966 - Fax dtofig@doe.k12.ga.us http://www.gadoe.org

Get GaDOE news and updates sent right to your inbox! Sign up at http://www.gadoe.org/enewsletter.aspx

05/24/2008 08:52 AM MST Please respond to kastms2008@yahoo.com

Dear Mr. Tofig,

I read the article in the AJC this morning and I have one question for you…ARE YOU SERIOUSLY JOKING? Obviously you DID NOT read my letter! Your empathy has really touched my heart - YES, it is an emotional issue when you have to tell a child that they are a FAILURE at the age of 8 or 10 or 14! Why is the system failing our children yet you and your organization is left with no ACCOUNTABILITY? I say if you fail our children you should get FIRED!!!!!!!! Mr. Tofig, do you even have any children? Because it seems that you are doing nothing more than passing the buck. I am tired of my intelligence constantly being questioned…so know it’s time to question yours! When was the last time YOU actually sat in a classroom other than for PR purposes? Why is there no accountability be placed on you and your superiors? When did our children start becoming YOUR SAFTEY NET? You are the ADULTS and you should be held accountable! I am disgusted with your response and am tired of incompetent leaders leading our children. Why don’t you and Mrs. Cox sit down and take the test…let’s see how well the both of you do!

Sincerely,

Tammy Shuman

By Mom

June 17, 2008 6:39 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

I don’t think you should be calling our children dumb, when you have the worst written gammar I have ever read. With writting like yours you wouldn’t even pass the CRCT!!!

By Disappointed Mom

June 18, 2008 11:25 PM | Link to this

I cannot speak for other school systems, but for the one in Americus GA, I can speak as a concerned parent. It seems to me this testing and the focus on it has gotten way out of hand. I will call our children stupid but then again we have allowed their schooling to develope this stupidity. I cannot forsee any children being taught the way my children have passing the SAT. The entire state has put so much emphasis on the CRCT that now this is all the school here teaches. All my children seem to do is drill after drill in order to prepare them for the CRCT. IMHO it seems to me that if we went back to the old way of teaching in which a child knew more than test taking these test would not be a problem. I recall growing up and actually being taught things in school. I remember being given this test and the number of students failing was not near what it is since they have tweaked it and made it the primary interest. That and the blasted test gate have ruined teaching. I noticed many say well it is within your control to do something about it. Sure I can and will pull my children out and homeschool them. However, shouldn’t it matter that many parents do not have the option of homeschool or private school. I am also curious how a school can keep its accredidation with more than half of the students repeating summer school if these tests are the basis. I also wonder how much No Child Left Behind has contributed to the demise of education.