Get Schooled

By Jeff

May 15, 2008 9:04 AM | Link to this

Im all for charter schools. Anything to get the schools back to what they were like before brown v topeka.

By WFC

May 15, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

Hey Jeff! Why not go all the way back to the time before the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments to the U.S. Constitution?

By jim d

May 15, 2008 9:52 AM | Link to this

I’m afraid you will have to define “LOCAL CONTROL”

If one considers the existing school system as local, then perhaps. However, all they really loose control of is some of the money since it follows the student to the charter. This has no detrimental effect on public education in as much as charter schools are public schools that are truly under what I consider even greater local Control

There are pros and cons to charter schools that parents must weigh carefully when making a choice. I personally believe that most parents make the right choice for their family given their particular curmstance and I support the charter school movement 100% when the charter isn’t held by the local school system.

By Tony

May 15, 2008 10:01 AM | Link to this

Charter schools are fine. If I recall correctly, we fought a war somewhere in our history and part of the theme leading to that war was, “No taxation without representation.” By having an appointed state board that approves the charter school applications, the state will be doing just that. The state level board has the power to take local tax dollars - against the voters wishes - and redistribute the money as they see fit.

The state legislature took many approaches to take away local control this year. The most “famous” was the proposal to do away with all ad valorem taxes. This would have stripped cities, counties, and boards of education of their responsibilities for setting local tax rates. All the funding mechanisms would have been transferred to the capital decision makers.

The erosion of school quality can be closely linked to federal and state intrustions into local board of education decisions. The application of one-size-fits-all standards is very harmful to our students and schools and having one more state authority to oversee schools will only add to the problem.

By jim d

May 15, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

Tony,

can you help me out here?

the state level board has the power to take local tax dollars -

I’m afraid i don’t read it that way. To the contrary, it appears the state will provide greater funding making funding available to the local system for it fudiciary responsibilities under the charter school law.

10 provide for retention of administrative fees by a local board of education for newly approved 11 local charter schools; to provide for additional QBE funding for full-time equivalent students 12 in system charter schools; to include such amount in the total state funds allotted to a school 13 system; to provide for related matters; to repeal conflicting laws; and for other purposes.

By jim d

May 15, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

Tony,

also let me ask if you know of a more locally representative form of government than one that actually involves the represented representing themselves.(And that is what a charter school does) I certainly can’t think of one.

By JustMe

May 15, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

This argument is interesting to me.

For those that want local control and local government, you should be upset that the State (or even the Federal) government is wanting to control local schools and local decisions. But, I see that some of you are actually arguing the opposite - you seem to be in favor of the State making laws to over-ride local control. Interesting.

You really cannot have it both ways and not be a hypocrite. Either you want local control or not.

By jim d

May 15, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this

JM,

But we can.

I’m certain that you may consider this circular logic but when the state takes control to strip control from a local governmental agency to give that control to the people, we do in fact end up with more localized control.

By jim d

May 15, 2008 11:20 AM | Link to this

The cost of Charters to a local system

Let’s just break down the cost of a charter to a system like GCPS.

1.9 billion dollars budget for 08-09 school year.

According to the state DOE website 51.26% of that is funded by the state.

41.34% is local funding

And 7.4% comes in the form of federal funding

GCPS has predicted 160,000 students next year which would equal $11,875 per student.

Let’s assume say 1000 student left the traditional system for charter schools. That would amount to $11,875,000 of which the states portion would be $6,087,125. And the county’s funding (which they would keep) in the amount of $4,909,125. So the county actually looses 1000 students and gains nearly half a billion dollars in expendable funds to spend providing for the 159,000 students remaining in the system. ( Not really a bad trade off in my opinion.)

By decaturparent

May 15, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

You know, I’ve thought this through, and I’m not convinced that the charter school law is a bad thing (though I do think it is unconstitutional). I think choice and competition are good - particularly in the charter school environment.

I’d be happier with 881 if the state commission was elected rather than appointed by the bubbas running the state right now.

I think Decatur schools are great - my kids go there and we’ve been very happy. But they aren’t for everyone and some of their recent decisions have the potential to harm certain groups of students.

If Decatur schools are as great as they say and think they are, they should not be worried about a little competition. I have enough faith in Decatur schools to believe that they will not have any problem with some charter school starting in the city limits. I just don’t think that most kids can get a much better education than at CSD.

However, if kids aren’t being well served in Decatur, why not offer them a choice for something completely different? Their motto is “Whatever It Takes.” What if “what it takes” is an educational environment completely different than the one choice offered by CSD? CSD only offers one choice - Expeditionary learning and International Baccalaureate - what if that’s not working for a kid?

Anyway, I understand why they are suing and I understand that the law probably won’t pass constitutional muster. I totally expected them to sue, and I expect that lots of other school systems will join.

I’m just disappointed that our school systems are all about innovation and serving children up to that point that truly serving ALL children means competition - if they actually have to compete - they balk, pick up their marbles and run home.

By high school teacher

May 15, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this

I’m not really sure how I feel about this yet. I am all for charter schools, but not to the detriment of the public school in the same district. Perhaps what should be in place is an appeal system of some sort: if a local school board turns down a charter application, then that proposed charter can ask for someone higher to hear its proposal.

However, if citizens want a charter and the local board turns it down, the citizens can show their disapproval by way of voting out the board.

I’m also speaking without full knowledge of the issue; there are no charter schools where I live or teach, and I am not part of a mega-system that is more about politics than education.

By JustMe

May 15, 2008 12:11 PM | Link to this

Another aspect of this debate is how “Charter” is defined.

Some say that Charter schools are indepedent and can set up their own admission standards, their own curriculum, their own everything - almost like a private school.

The other extreme may say that Charter schools are part of the public school system and must adhere to all rules, laws, etc. like every other public school. They also must admit everyone that wishes to attend (up to capacity).

Before any reasonable debate can occur about this law, don’t we have to clearly understand what is meant by “Charter?”

By jim d

May 15, 2008 12:53 PM | Link to this

Let’s just break down the cost of a charter to a system like GCPS.

1.9 billion dollars budget for 08-09 school year.

According to the state DOE website 51.26% of that is funded by the state.

41.34% is local funding

And 7.4% comes in the form of federal funding

GCPS has predicted 160,000 students next year which would equal $11,875 per student.

Let’s assume say 1000 students left the traditional system for charter schools. That would amount to $11,875,000 of which the states portion would be $6,087,125. And the county’s funding (which they would keep) in the amount of $4,909,125. So the county actually loses 1000 students and gains nearly 5 million dollars in expendable funds to spend providing for the 159,000 students remaining in the system. ( Not really a bad trade off in my opinion.)

By jim d

May 15, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

JM,

Here’s a suggeston.

Open this link and read an “Analysis of Georgia Charter School Law”

AED National Institute for Work and Learning Research Brief

It spells it out pretty clearly

By high school teacher

May 15, 2008 3:21 PM | Link to this

Helloooooo! Is anyone there?

By JustMe

May 15, 2008 3:36 PM | Link to this

jd - After reading that web link, I really see VERY little difference between a Charter School and a regular Public School in GA. Seems like a bunch of PR to me.

By jim d

May 15, 2008 4:13 PM | Link to this

there are a couple of key differences

1; charter schools maybe managed and operated by private organizations,

2: Charter schools must abide by all federal and many (not all) of the same state and local laws as traditional public schools

3:Charter school teachers may not have to be certified.

4: Charter schools must show results or loose their charter.

5: Students in attendance at a charter school generally want to be there

By mmm

May 15, 2008 6:44 PM | Link to this

Jim D

corrections: 1. Charters may be run by a traditional system (as in conversions or LEA start-up) or a non-profit board—which may contract for management services with a for-profit company. It may not be run by a private organization—-the non-profit is subject to open meetings and open records requirements just like any other school.

Otherwise your statements are accurate. I am a charter Mom and followed 881 closely.

By HS Teacher Too

May 15, 2008 7:25 PM | Link to this

jim d, saw the news tonight about the latest MCHS event … how many days in your countdown, again?!

By Joan

May 15, 2008 8:20 PM | Link to this

mmm:Re teachers:Certified and highly qualified are not synonyms. Many highly qualified teachers are not certified, using the common definition of certification by the state. There are quite a few private schools that do not require state certification and some, in fact, prefer their teachers NOT be certified as they believe it[state certification] is limiting, heavy on the management and methods and light on the content and subject knowledge

By Ansel

May 15, 2008 11:04 PM | Link to this

In the pasty 40 years, our state has seen unprecedented growth in business, industry and population. Yet in the same time period, public education has remained stagnant in the bottom 10% of our nation. To have so many resources flowing into our state and not to be able to address the ills of public education; not only is this reprehensible, it undermines our state’s ability to continue to be competitive in our nation and around the world.

The families who are hurt the most by a poor public educational system are the families who are unable to afford any type of choice for their children.

Our state’s locally elected officials have determined that a state commission has the authority to approve a charter school and to allow that school to receive federal, state and local dollars. To fund a public school with anything less than what traditional public schools within the same district receiveswould be disingenuous and criminal.

How unfortunate this situation already occurs with locally denied and state approved charter schools in Georgia. Are we saying the students who attend these schools are worth only 60% of other traditional public school students?

Allowing parents to have choices within public K-12 education should not be controversial. It should be praised by all who support public education.

By jim d

May 16, 2008 5:20 AM | Link to this

HS teach too,

We’re down to counting the hours now.

since he’s been able to opt out of several of his finals its something like 15hrs of in class time.

By jim d

May 16, 2008 7:48 AM | Link to this

mmm,

you may have read my previous post to quickly.

“1; charter schools maybe managed and operated by private organizations,”

I agree they may not be the governing board that actually holds the charter, however the governing board may contract out management and operations.

The argument regarding what constitutes highly qualified rages on.

Good point on the students about to be expelled, although unless I’m mistaken a charter may expell a student for any infractions of the rules that would get them expelled from a conventional school system.

By JustMe

May 16, 2008 8:44 AM | Link to this

jd - Charter schools must adhere to the same rules and laws to expel students. This was changed a few years ago in GA. Originally, you were right - Charter schools could expel students for most any infraction. However, that is not the way it is now.

Also, regarding private companies running schools… I don’t understand this one. How could a private company provide equal (or better) services AND ALSO make a profit? Either the school system is bloated with top heavy administration (which won’t be a shock) or the profit is non-existent.

Regarding teachers… I have never heard of any school (public, private, or otherwise) that sought out teachers that were not certified. That is odd, IMHO. GA State certification means that the teacher has taken a minimum number of college credits in the subject matter AND ALSO has taken a minimum number of college credits in education. In addition, that person has passed a standardized test on their subject matter after college. But hey, who needs those qualifications, right?

By jim d

May 16, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

JM,

Who knows? I’m not certain that owning a teaching certificate qualifies one any better than holding a doctorate in a given field without the certificate.

By jim d

May 16, 2008 10:18 AM | Link to this

jm,

I think we are in agreement.

“Charter schools must adhere to the same rules and laws to expel students.”

Isn’t that what I said?

“although unless I’m mistaken a charter may expell a student for any infractions of the rules that would get them expelled from a conventional school system.”

By jim d

May 16, 2008 10:30 AM | Link to this

BTW JM,

You may have overlooked the one bid process used by many school systems that would not be used by a company looking to turn a profit. I don’t know about other counties but Gwinnett utilizes a one bid system quite a bit. So not only may they be top heavey in management that could be eliminaated but by competitive bidding for services and supplies a charter could produce additional savings.

They also have the ability to negotiate teachers salaries and benefits which some teachers may be willing to trade off for more autonomy in the classroom. Generating further savings. Let’s face it “government is the most inefficent form of management”

By JustMe

May 16, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

jd - I cannot say this about all Charter Schools, but the ones that I am aware of pay teachers on the same salary scale for the school system as all teachers in that school system. Because the Charter Schools must be part of the school system, this would seem to apply.

By jim d

May 16, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this

JM,

I can see that. Why would anyone take less if they had to put up with much of the same crap? Besides, Charters operated by a school system might actually be getting the local funding so they still have the same amount of financing.

It makes perfect sense!