Get Schooled

By jim d

May 12, 2008 8:56 AM | Link to this

Let em walk.

Once more let me explain that a single test is not an accurate measure of what a child has learned.

Teachers know all too well that many of the students not getting a diploma based on this asinine test are actually quite competent.

I have a real problem with accepting all the bull dung being handed down from above being passed off as “LOCAL CONTROL”

By Jeff

May 12, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

jim:

16 yo can’t pass the driving test. You say give them a liscence anyway. I say that driving test represents the BARE MINIMUM I want a person on the road beside me to know.

Same with GHSGT. It represents the BARE MINIMUM a student should know to qualify as a HS Graduate. And it isn’t like the kid can only take it one time. They have a year and a half!!!!

If they can’t pass this SIMPLE test, they don’t need to be flipping burgers, they need to be in a half-way house for RETARDS.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

Dear Troll,

Did I say give them a diploma? I must of missed that part.

By LMAO

May 12, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

If the state mandated test needs to be passed to be a GRADUATE and the ceremony is for GRADUATES if you let those that have not passed the approved curriculum for graduation go on stage then you are misrepresenting what the ceremony is all about. It is like the schools that have 45 Valadictorians when there should be only 1.. My God how scary…I actually agree with the Fulton Co. and Atlanta School Systems….we must be close to the end of time.

By Jeff

May 12, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

jim:

While I saw this morning the troll problems the blog here was experiencing, I can assure you that I did not post - or even look back here - after my one post Friday morning.

My point in my last was this: They did not meet the requirements for participation in GRADUATION excercises, yet you say let them participate anyway.

Which is exactly the same case of the driver’s liscence example. They did not meet the requirements for participation, yet you say let them participate anyway.

There is no difference in the two.

By LJ

May 12, 2008 10:15 AM | Link to this

I believe that the GHSGT is initially given during the junior year. If a student can’t figure out the test and pass it in the year and half after that, I have no sympathy. Especially when I recall a number of us making perfect scores on some sections not too many years ago. From what I hear, it hasn’t become more difficult.

By gwinnett educator

May 12, 2008 10:27 AM | Link to this

i think the real Jeff knows how to spell “license”.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 10:33 AM | Link to this

Dear Not Jeff,

First of all, there is a difference in walking across a stage and handing a kid a license to kill.

Secondly jeff has never used the word “RETARD”.

Nice try though!

By HS Teacher Too

May 12, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

My college had a policy of allowing students to walk if they came within a certain range of being able to graduate in the next semester. For example, you could walk in May if you were going to finish your graduation requirements in summer school, or in the following semester. (I can’t recall if the program noted that such students’ graduation dates were really August.) You couldn’t walk twice, though. Recognizing that the May ceremony was the one with all of the “pomp and circumstance,” December graduates could walk what was essentially a semester early, but they couldn’t walk again in December.

I have no problem letting kids walk if they have only a “little” left, or if they earned only a certificate and not a real diploma (I have a problem with that certificate policy, anyway, but that is another topic). If the student has failed every single one of their tests on the other hand, not so much. But, for many of these kids, this is the only “rite of passage” they may ever really enjoy, and as long as there is some reasonable threshhold they have to meet, I think they should be able to walk. One important caveat: the parents need to know, in writing, that the kid is NOT graduating. I have seen it happen where a student had an entire family fooled, and I can assure you that the outcome was not pleasant.

All that being said, I don’t know where the line should be (no pun intended), for determining who is eligible to walk.

Jeff, the difference between your driver’s license example and the example of high school graduation ceremony is at least two-fold:

I do agree with you about the bare minimum aspect, and I would probably say the two tests are about as difficult as each other, but I think the point here is that graduation is a ceremony that no one mistakes for anything more than that.

By catlady

May 12, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

‘Fraid I agree with the others. The GHGT is a very minimal test. You get to take it multiple times. Students who do not pass it should not walk, cannot graduate. Graduation is for those who graduate (except, I guess, in the case of those sp ed kids who get a certificate of attendance—still have mixed feelings about that. I’d like to see it as a separate part of the ceremony. There are arguements both ways. The sp ed lobby is very strong).

By Tony

May 12, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

Here is a true story from a rural volunteer fire department where my dad is chief. There are two trainees in the courses to prepare the volunteers for duty. One candidate has the ability to read the material and make 100s on the test. The other candidate cannot pass the test. On this criterion alone, candidate one seems better qualified.

On the Saturday “hands on” training, candidate one has to be told every step to follow. pull the hose, open the nozzle, sweep back and forth with the spray, etc. Candidate two immediately carries out the steps necessary to battle the blaze. Who is the better candidate? If my house is on fire, I want candidate number 2! There is not a multiple choice assessment when it comes to putting out real fires.

When it comes to certifying graduates, local boards of education should be able to set the standards and determine who participates in the graduation exercises.

Jeff, there is no comparison between the driving test and the graduation test. You failed to recall that the driving portion is performance based. The written portion can be read aloud to the person with no penalty. The graduation test is only a multiple choice assessment - no performance portion. So, there is no comparison.

People can be quite capable of performance with a very high degree of competence even when they are unable to pass a written exam. These differences should be acknowledged. The tests used for graduation determination expect kids to remember minute details of content that have no relevance to life and are not fair because of it.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 10:54 AM | Link to this

Liar, liar, pants are on fire!

I want to invite all of my “regular” personalities (DB, momtoAlex&Max, WFC, jim d [well, that’s the one I am now], Lee, thomas, Mom3Boys, Jeff, lovelyliz, mad_russian, V for Vendetta, HS Teacher Too, Catlady, Cactus, Teacher[,]Too, Phil, Gaefer, BABY, DJR, S, Ryder, RealTeacher, and the rest) to a picnic in my backyard on July 4th. We will give out the Pinnochio (sp?) Award for the longest and most believable yarn that is spun by one of the participants. I (or, “we”) also want to invite my new personalities (LMAO, LJ, and gwinnett educator) to this event. The new personalities will participate in a contest to see who can do the most blogs (three line minimum) with different “new” names in one minute. The winner will be given 50 Gunny tokens to Onionland Fun Park in Vidalia, Georgia.

I, jim d, go on record to say that for once in this past two decades the Atlanta Public Schools and the Fulton County School System are right: Don’t let them walk. Otherwise, it cheapens the entire ceremony that the others have earned the right to participate in.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

What about kids that didn’t take the test? It does happen when a senior transfers into a Georgia School. They may not have passed the test due to dates it is administered. Should they be allowed to walk?

By Tony

May 12, 2008 11:04 AM | Link to this

Hey, jim d, why you leave my name out? What’s up with that? ‘Cause I’m from Jersey or something and you don’t want no Yankees at your party? What about t williams? You left him out too! He’s your “hit man” - the meanest and nastiest personality on the AJC Blogs. What’s up with that, man? No respect. That’s what we get - no respect!

By LJ

May 12, 2008 11:09 AM | Link to this

“People can be quite capable of performance with a very high degree of competence even when they are unable to pass a written exam. These differences should be acknowledged. The tests used for graduation determination expect kids to remember minute details of content that have no relevance to life and are not fair because of it.”

This is the problem with only giving out college prep diplomas, IMO. Not everybody needs to go to college or should be pushed in that direction. It’s been a few years since I took the GHSGT, but I don’t remember there being a lot of minute detail type questions. Still, if you’re receiving a degree saying that you’re prepared to go to college, you need to be able to pass this type of test.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

Dear not Tony,

Wasn’t me!

By Tony

May 12, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

The state board of education recently approved continuation contracts for testing for the upcoming year. The total? $23,000,000. I, for one, believe this money would be better spent in classrooms. The amount spent on testing programs is not sufficient to assure the exams are high quality. (I once tried to report an error on the test. Instead of being concerned about errors on the test, the DOE was concerned that someone had seen the test!)

By HB

May 12, 2008 11:29 AM | Link to this

Absolutely, let them walk. If the kids have satisfactorily completed all coursework, I see no reason why the test alone should bar them from participation. Graduation is not just about earning a diploma. It’s about finishing school. If a students fails courses and needs summer school or to be a senior for another year, they should not walk until they’ve done so. But if the school itself has nothing more to offer the student (they don’t stick around if only the test is left, right?), then let them walk with their class and receive their certificate of completion.

Med school grads walk without passing their Boards. Law school grads walk before passing the bar. To let the test alone keep a student from walking with his friends, seems cruel to me.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 11:31 AM | Link to this

23 million is a mere drop in the bucket.

GCPS 08-09 budget = $1,900,000,000.00

Yeah, yeah, I know——It’s just a bunch of zero’s

By LMAO

May 12, 2008 12:22 PM | Link to this

Hey Jim D……I accept.. I’ll bring the bar-b-que.

By JustMe

May 12, 2008 12:34 PM | Link to this

Graduation does not mean that a student “marked time” for 4 years. It doesn’t even mean that they “worked hard” for 4 years. It means that they have gained a quantifiable amount of knowledge and can demonstrate it.

The GHSGT is extremely easy (and seems to be getting easier every year). Anyone unable to pass this test has an education (I would estimate) on a 6th or 7th grade level. Do they deserve to graduate high school? I would say no.

A HS diploma should mean something more than marking time. And, walking across the stage to get you diploma should mean something as well.

jim d I must check to see if the Earth has stopped rotating! You agree with APS and Fulton?????

HB Some high schools in GA are embarrassingly easy. Some teachers give passing grades due to parent pressure, administration pressure, etc. Just because a kid “passes classes” doesn’t mean that they have learned a darn thing, unfortunately. That is why the GHSGT was created. If you don’t like this, how would you propose to ensure a minimum level of knowledge has been gained to graduate from high school across the State of GA?

By LMAO

May 12, 2008 12:37 PM | Link to this

Hey Laura…lets debate on your blog the good the bad of Charter Schools.

By LMAO

May 12, 2008 12:38 PM | Link to this

Hey Hey Hey…jim d….you can make fur of eveything BUT vidalia onions…

By DB

May 12, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Nope, they don’t get to walk, in my book. If you can’t pass the state test, then you obviously haven’t learned the barest possible minimum, because that test is ridiculously, embarrassingly easy. Flunk the test, and you don’t walk. Otherwise, what is the incentive? If you get to walk whether or not you actually do the work to graduate, then why bother doing the work? At that point, I don’t give a flip about their so-called “self-esteem”. If they flunk THAT test, they don’t DESERVE any “self-esteem”!

By DB

May 12, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

Ooh, party! Count me in! I’ll bring dessert!

By mom3boys

May 12, 2008 12:55 PM | Link to this

I was going to pass on this one, but since JimD named me in his post, I will comment. Son #2 graduates next week. He has worked hard to get to this point (he has a 90 average). He has taken AP, honors, and gifted classes. In the same school, special education students are completing their coursework, according to the goals of their IEP’s. I believe they will participate in graduation as well. We all know they only receive a certificate of completion, yet they will march. The students you all speak of in this blog have finished their coursework. They will come back over the summer and test and test until they pass. When/if they pass, they will be mailed a real diploma to put in their empty case (everyone gets an empty case at graduation). The fact that these kids (and the special ed kids) are not getting a diploma takes NOTHING away from my son or his achievements. My son has many achievements based on the way he chose to live the last four years, just as I’m sure many fellow bloggers’ kids do as well. I guess the bottom line for me is: who cares? By the way, who sent out graduation announcements? Not me…felt like that was trolling for gifts!

By JustMe

May 12, 2008 1:01 PM | Link to this

Regarding the GHSGT…. FYI for those that don’t know…. The first time students take this is the middle of their Junior year. If they fail any part of it, they can retake those parts only that summer, and then try twice more during their Senior year.

If any student fails any part 4 times in a row - they just should not get a High School Diploma and should not walk, period. Let them try for a GED!

By LMAO

May 12, 2008 1:02 PM | Link to this

DB can I ride with you….my 53 Studebaker is in the shop for everything.

By gwinnett educator

May 12, 2008 1:55 PM | Link to this

mom3boys…there are “2” jim ds posting. Our “usual” jim d wasn’t the one typing to you.

there is a troll (sigh)..we just have to read and be able to discriminate between who is really who.

in the meantime, let’s not feed the troll.

By HB

May 12, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

JustMe, if you read my post again, you’ll see that I never said students who don’t pass the test should receive a diploma. Rather, I believe that students completing coursework should be allowed to walk and receive their certificate of completion.

As for your assertion that passing classes means nothing, I’m sure that’s sometimes true. Sometimes teachers are pressured by parents/admins to change grades. Sometimes a student gets a lousy teacher or two. All sorts of factors contribute to a school having low standards, but if the student has met the school’s standards — and by assigning passing grades the school is asserting that student has done so — then let them walk.

We all discuss the widespread problems with public education on this board. I think everyone agrees that there is not one single cause for problems and that parents, administrators, teachers, and students all share responsibility for the systems successes and failures (although how much who is responsible for what is clearly up for debate). Recognizing that, I just don’t see why performance on one test, ignoring classroom performance and all other mitigating factors, should keep a passing student from walking in a ceremony alongside her peers. She did what was asked of her and the school gave its stamp of approval for 4 years — that should count for something. Walking and receiving a school certificate of completion, not a state-approved diploma, seems perfectly appropriate to me.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this

LMAO,

You got a Bourke designed SB made in 53? The last year before packard bought them out? #’s matching?

Bring it, I’ll add it to the collection.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 2:07 PM | Link to this

Better idea!!

When he blogs as you—send it to our host! Enough complaints may get something done.

By SET

May 12, 2008 2:16 PM | Link to this

Graduation means passing all the requirements. If a student failed to pass all the requirements, they by definition have no business in the ceremony. It’s really simple.

There will be those people who want to hand out consolation prizes - like the graduation ceremony for one. These are weak people who don’t want graduation to mean anything. They just want everybody to be “happy” and that’s part of why the losers didn’t make it, their enablers kept them so happy they didn’t put forth the effort required.

So even in the end the enablers want one final appeasement.

By LMAO

May 12, 2008 2:32 PM | Link to this

Thats the very one jim d (what the hell did he say????????????)

By jim d

May 12, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

lmao,

what I said was “I’ll give you $100 for it.” :-)

By aaaa

May 12, 2008 3:09 PM | Link to this

Hmmm…Should a student who cannot actually graduate be recognized as having graduated at the graduation ceremony. Is that the question? REALLY? How can this even be a question in anybody’s mind?

By teach

May 12, 2008 3:13 PM | Link to this

I am a teacher and I occasionally read this blog… the same people are on here everyday griping about the same issues over and over. If any of you were actually teachers, you wouldn’t have the time to sit online b#tching all day! Have any of you ever tried to get off your ars and tutor a child or volunteer at your local school!!??!!?? You suck!

By jim d

May 12, 2008 3:43 PM | Link to this

So teach,

Should they walk or not?

By dorrie

May 12, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

What if the course they took is deficient? Why have state tests at all if we don’t require a standard of proficiency. All the students I talk to say that the Graduation Test is so easy that it is almost an insult, so if they cannot pass, they should not be allowed to walk. Period.

By JustMe

May 12, 2008 4:00 PM | Link to this

jd - Obviously that is not the person that usually posts under the handle “teach.” That is the imposter trying to ruin this board. No one that posts here regularly would ever type, “You suck!”

By Sad

May 12, 2008 4:04 PM | Link to this

Dr. Johnnie Trotter is back on the board. Sad!!!!

By Captain

May 12, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

OK jim d….but I think you are paying about $50 too much

By jim d

May 12, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

JM,

Yeah, maybe the ajc can block an IP or two.

By Craig

May 12, 2008 4:22 PM | Link to this

There is a constitutionally guaranteed right to a public education but there is no such right to walk at graduation. Walking/Marching at graduation is a privilege earned by a student who meets ALL the previously established criteria for so doing. In a stable, functional society, one receives what one earns. Let’s reinforce this message by permitting only those high school seniors who have EARNED this privilege through meeting our widely disseminated graduation requirements to walk across the stage and receive the popular recognition they deserve.

By JustMe

May 12, 2008 4:24 PM | Link to this

HB But it isn’t just the HSGT that may stop students from walking or graduating. A student may excel at the HSGT and pass all parts with honors, and yet fail course work. That would also mean that they could not walk or graduate.

Again, I would argue that the State of GA is simply trying to make a high school diploma represent that the student has learned a minimum amount of material (not just leave it up to the school).

IMHO, the walking part is just peer pressure to get the students to do whatever is necessary to graduate with a diploma. For some of them, if you let them walk without earning the diploma, they just won’t care about graduating at all.

Would you be okay with dividing the graduation ceremony into two parts: one for real GA high school diplomas, and then one for certificates (of attendance, of course work, whatever)? Would that make a difference for you?

By Ed

May 12, 2008 4:28 PM | Link to this

Why would anyone design a single test criteria for gradudating? What is achieved by doing so?

As a rule, we don’t do it for passing classes in high school and college?

Who wants to be judged by a single moment in time?

By jim d

May 12, 2008 4:36 PM | Link to this

Mr. Ed

“Why would anyone design a single test criteria for gradudating? “

Money

Craig,

Which amendment is that now? It seems to have slipped my mind.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

JM,

Bottom line my friend is that it does my child no harm for a kid to walk across the stage to pick up an empty certificate holder and I bare no grudge against anyone doing so. To the contrary, I wish them the best.

By HS Teacher Too

May 12, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

There is a constitutionally guaranteed right to a public education

Hmm. can’t seem to find THAT right anywhere … Here’s an idea: LEARN the Constitution before you attribute things to it.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

SET,

I disagree, it isn’t the weak that want to allow these kids to walk. It is the informed, the people that realize we have most assuredly left these kids behind by attempting to force a CP curriculum down their throats instead of providing them with the life skills they will need to become contributing members of society.

By jim d

May 12, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

HS teach too,

Reason you can’t find it may be because it only exists in someones imagination.

By HB

May 12, 2008 5:19 PM | Link to this

JustMe, I’m aware that some students who don’t walk failed coursework. I’m fine with that. To me, course work is clearly laid out, with opportunities to make up for missteps over the semester, work closely with the teacher to improve performance, etc. If a student does not meet the school’s standards for fulfilling coursework, then I have no problem with them losing the privilege of walking. What I find unfair is that a student can do all of that, meet the standards the school has set, and not walk because of a test that is further removed from the school and classroom. Four years of satisfactory performance should not be outweighed by one test.

And yes, I understand that the state is trying to control the quality of a diploma. That’s why I have been very specific in distinguishing between being allowed to walk and receiving a diploma. Whether or not the GA graduation test specifically is an effective method for ensuring a diploma means something is another matter of debate, but for the purposes of ceremonies being held under the current rules, I strongly believe that there should be some sort of inclusion for students who complete the school’s coursework and are deemed as passing by the school. And sure, list the graduates separately. I think some schools do that already. I know mine did. Graduates were noted as receiving CP, Voc, or combined diplomas before the test went in, and Georgia-cert diplomas or certificates of completion (only if enough courses were passed — summer schoolers could not participate) after the test was required.

By mrk

May 12, 2008 5:21 PM | Link to this

NO!

Maybe they can have a graduation for those that “almost” graduate. Everyone can celebrate the fact that they attended, while not learning anything.

By Deanna

May 12, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

First off, I believe a test is not indicative of what someone has learned. Some people truly do have problems with standardized tests.

That being said, I believe the problem lies with the administrators and/or teachers that give students passing grades in subjects that they truly do not deserve. It seems that “poor Johnny’s” self esteem would suffer if he were to fail a class and take it again. If the exit exam is so easy, why do students have trouble passing it if they were able to pass English 101? Answer: they really didn’t deserve to pass the class in the first place.

If you put in 12+ years of school and passed all your classes as deemed by your teachers and administrators, you should graduate PERIOD Not have one test decide if the last 12 years of your education was adequate.

The test is a joke, so therefore, the graduation ceremony becomes one. Let them walk, it makes no difference.

By JeremiahWright

May 12, 2008 5:33 PM | Link to this

If you don’t pass, you don’t walk. What’s hard about that concept?

Of course, we should excuse black students because the whole system is racist.

By JeremiahWright

May 12, 2008 5:42 PM | Link to this

Let’s just get rid of grades altogether. As long as everyone does their best, and we consider all backgrounds, abilities, and hardships, that’s good enough.

By End-Note

May 12, 2008 5:51 PM | Link to this

Let us be consistent in what happens. Special education students get to walk but they are not graduating. They are receiving a “Certificate” of attendance. Yet, we are punishing students who have endured 12 or 13 years of school only to miss passing a science test by 5 points or a social studies test by 3 points.

If they walk it certainly does not mean they are graduating, plain and simple. What does the test show any ways? I’ve been in the business over 20 years and still can’t figure out the real value of the GHSGT.

By luke30127

May 12, 2008 6:40 PM | Link to this

The English and Math sections are pretty basic but I bet most you who have been out of high school awhile would fail Science and Social Studies. I would love to print your scores especially those of you who are so sure the GHSGT is “easy”. I would also love to have all the representatives in Georgia take the test and we could print their scores. Only write when you know what you are writing about…please!!

By DIANNA

May 12, 2008 6:41 PM | Link to this

I THINK THAT IT IS UNFAIR TO DENY STUDENTS WHO HAVE PAID FOR THEIR GRADUATION PACKAGES, ATTENDED SCHOOL 13 YEARS,AND PASSED REQUIRED CLASSES A ONCE IN LIFE TIME EVENTS FOR A POINT OR TWO ON A TEST.WHERE IS THE PRIVICY ACT FOR THESE KIDS WHO DON’T WANT THE SCHOOL OR TOWN TO KNOW WHAT HAS HAPPENED THERE LAST YEAR IN SCHOOL.

By Lisa B.

May 12, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

I go back and forth on this one. My nephew passed all his courses, all his end-of-course tests, and failed the Science part of the HSGT by one point. He retook the Science part, choked, and blew the test. Choked again, (well, actually threw up)during the next retest, and wasn’t allowed to walk with his class last May. He retook the Science part again last July, and, with the pressure off, aced the test. I felt so sad for him. Test anxiety kept him from enjoying that special day. He learned to get a grip on himself though, and has done very well his first year of college.

By LJ

May 12, 2008 7:05 PM | Link to this

luke, I did take the GHSGT a few years ago, thought it was easy then, and based on my siblings, siblings-in-law and other relatives still high school, I gather it hasn’t changed much as far as difficulty goes.

If test anxiety is the problem, that needs to be dealt with as it’s own issue, as college bound students will most likely take many a test.

Bottom line, if you don’t meet the requirements, you don’t walk IMO. (Special ed students being a different issue entirely.)

By HB

May 12, 2008 7:11 PM | Link to this

Do they have both state-designed end-of-course tests AND the grad test? I thought those were developed to phase the grad test out.

By mom3boys

May 12, 2008 7:15 PM | Link to this

Catlady: I am having a nervous breakdown. Can you meet me at the Public Pub at Little Five Points? My three hellion boys are driving me insane. All these personalities from the same person. I think he is Gunny Yawn. I need a drink…acai juice and vodka. (That’s what I drink in my thermos at school. The kids cannot smell the vodka.) Tomorrow, I am checking into putting my boys up for adoption. My new name will be momnoboys.

By Jcola200

May 12, 2008 7:29 PM | Link to this

No. They’re dopes. Enjoy summer school.

By parent

May 12, 2008 7:39 PM | Link to this

Who cares? My child, graduating with a 3.5 gpa does not want to participate, he just wants his diploma, which he will not receive that afternoon.He will receive a certificate of attendance and the diploma will be mailed later. Is the graduation ceremony today for the parents, the graduates or the school system?

By Lee

May 12, 2008 7:43 PM | Link to this

Lest ye forget…

The reason for all these graduation and other high stakes testing is that public schools were passing students from grade to grade who couldn’t do the work and graduating illiterates.

If we could TRUST public schools to do their jobs, the question of whether or not a student was worthy of a diploma would have already been answered.

Hell, maybe we should just start giving them the GED starting in the 9th grade. As soon as they pass, out the door they go. Bonus, saves the taxpayer a ton of money.

Hmmmm, ya know, that might just work….

By Lisa B.

May 12, 2008 7:50 PM | Link to this

Thanks, Gunny, for bringing me back on board. I was always one of your know-it-alls on teachers.net. You make me such a disgustingly, borish (sp?) jackanapes. I love to bloviate! Thanks! I was getting so bored and dusty just sitting in your mental warehouse. Obrigada!

By mom3boys

May 12, 2008 7:57 PM | Link to this

OK, I thought you guys were making this stuff up…until I saw the 7:15 post THAT I DID NOT WRITE

Whoever you are, you are far worse than a troll, to besmirtch our good names. Go away, and do not return.

The real Mom3boys

By HS Teacher Too

May 12, 2008 9:05 PM | Link to this

jim d, I know. Apparently he doesn’t, though.

By luvs2teach

May 12, 2008 9:55 PM | Link to this

To the real Lee @ 7:43 - you brought up the point I was going to make - many people are spouting on about how these poor babies “put in 12+ years” - I beg to differ. They may have been registered in school for 12+ years, but chances are they didn’t do what they needed to for most of those twelve.

There are warning signs, people - when your kid fails science in 7th or 8th grade, but passes everything else, they’re going on to the next grade! And they’re doing that without the science knowledge they’ll be presumed to know by the time the GHSGT rolls around. If your kid is absent(or in ISS, or in OSS)more than 10% of the schoool year (18 days), it’s going to be a problem!

Don’t even get me started on the concept of “placement” - these are kids who qualify for retention, but the powers that be deem it in the kid’s best interest to be “placed” into the next grade. Often times it’s because of the kid’s age, size, or behavior.

Wake up, people! If your kid is failing the CRCT in third grade, but going on to fourth, it’s going to catch up with them eventually.

If your baby has been “placed” into the next grade (look on the report card - it should specify) - your child didn’t do anything special like actually get promoted - they didn’t learn or do what they were supposed to do, should’ve been held back, and it’s going to catch up with them!

Look at your kids’ ITBS scores in 3rd, 5th, and 8th grade - lowest 25th percentile? Grade equivalent 2 or more years behind the grade they’re in - WARNING - they are not in a position to succeed without your help!

Don’t wait until they fail the GHSGT the fifth time to do something (like whine about their not being able to walk) - do something ASAP!!!

(Guess who was stuck in retention meetings today???) Rant over!

By Voice of Reason

May 12, 2008 10:12 PM | Link to this

Not everyone can take standardized tests well. I’m one of them. But my IQ is 124—(near-genius IQ)—and I’m a hi-power professional with advanced degrees. My in-class grades were practically all A’s and my performance evaluations in my professional were great. But it took me a few tries to pass that standardized, certifying written exam; did fine with the verbal. I’m just in that statistic: I don’t do well on written standardized exams. I think schools should focus on the regular grades primarily.

By Chuck

May 12, 2008 10:30 PM | Link to this

It’s BS if they’re able to walk. They’ve known for years what was required of them to graduate. They didn’t do it. Stop catering to them.

If they’re old enough to finish school they’re old enough understand the consequences of not doing what they needed too. Get over it. Sometimes life sucks and you don’t get to do what you want. It’s their fault, don’t reward them for failure. That’s not what happens in real life.

By ga girl

May 12, 2008 10:43 PM | Link to this

I agree with you Deanna. I think everyone should be able to march wheather you earned/recieved a diploma. They are still part of that class and put in 12 years as well. What is the harm??

By luvs2teach

May 12, 2008 11:18 PM | Link to this

Voice of Reason - your problem with standardized tests is that you probably over-analyzed the questions and talked yourself out of the right answers - it’s not uncommon in people with above-average intelligence - I see it in my gifted students often.

That being said, standardized test taking is a skill, and it’s a skill that can be improved (hello, Kaplan, anyone?). Most over the people who don’t pass the GHSGT do so becuase they don’t have the knowledge, pure and simple.

As far as grades go, they’re a game - just ask any kid - they’ll tell you that. We can’t give less than a fifty, because that makes it’s too mathematically difficult to bring up zeros. We can’t have homework worth more than 10% of their grade because they might not have good support at home. We can’t have tests worth more than 30% of their grade because some kids don’t test well (yeah - those that don’t study).

Grades turn into a measure of what they do and not what they know and then we wonder why they fail? Duh.

I have a student from India, and he told me that their grades are based on the result of three tests given over the course of the semester. That’s it. He’s in all my gifted classes, and he still finds school here easy - so do my Korean and Chinese students.

So, go ahead - let’s give all the kids a ribbon for just showing up - even if they didn’t play. After all, America is the home of the “Everybody’s a Winner’s Club.”

By Recent HS Grad

May 13, 2008 1:59 AM | Link to this

The GHSGT is a JOKE. I took it 2 years ago and most of it is so easy that a 5th grader could probably pass. Even the science part is extremely basic and could easily be passed by an 8th grader. If a student cannot pass the test, they certainly don’t deserve to graduate and therefore should not walk at graduation.

By Jeff

May 13, 2008 5:42 AM | Link to this

To the poster who wanted us to post our GHSGT scores: I’m going back to Cartersville for Memorial weekend (youngest bro is graduating, something like 3rd or 4th in his class) and if I can find my score reports, I’ll GLADLY post them. (Mom has kept virtually ALL of my major test reports, including PSAT/SAT/PRAXIS.) I have nothing to hide. I really am as good as I say I am. As Kid Rock says “It aint bragging MFer if you back it up.”

On to the tests:

Do you really want someone graduating who can’t read a map? Who doesn’t know the Constitution? (BTW: I THINK the GA State Constitution is the one that garauntees the right to a public education, but I’ve never read that document. It is a fact though that the US Constitution has no such garauntee.) Who doesn’t know the years of WWII? Who doesn’t know why Dec 7 1941 will “forever live in infamy”? Who doesn’t know the 5 primary leaders involved in WWII-Europe? Who doesn’t know what year the Civil War ended? Who doesn’t know that the Gettysburg Address was given in Gettysburg? Who doesn’t know the significance of July 4, 1776? Who can’t tell you what the equator is? Who can’t tell you that Australia is an island continent country? THESE are the types of questions on the GHSGT-Soc Studies. Will the given person ever actively USE most of this information? Probably not. But do we really want American citizens running around who do not know the history and founding principles of this great land? Oh wait, we already have a lot of that, including one of the leading candidates for President…

By jim d

May 13, 2008 6:35 AM | Link to this

29 hrs and 57 minutes.

:-)

By WFC

May 13, 2008 7:01 AM | Link to this

31 year veteran retired teacher here. The GHSGT is so easy that a bowl of jello could pass it. My guess is that your “student” went to a schoool in which the administration rules that everyone passes.

By Education system needs revamping

May 13, 2008 7:18 AM | Link to this

If a student took their education seriously, he or she would acquire the skills necessary to pass a MINIMUM skills test. If that student were smart enough to pass the test and graduate, they would have. If they want that once in a lifetime opportunity, pass the damn test.

The bottom line is that graduation is for GRADUATES, not almost graduates…you don’t earn it; you don’t get it. Giving kids anything and everything they want is part of what is causing our lousy ‘gimme’ generation to thrive. Grow some balls and just say no.

By jim d

May 13, 2008 7:27 AM | Link to this

Well let’s see.

Isn’t a graduation ceromony also known as “commencement?”

And isn’t commencement a beginning by definition?

If in fact that is the case, our denial that some kids are “beginning”, based on some fictious number attained on a bogus test really makes no difference.

“They are Beginning” and that dear friends is what we should be celebrating.

By Voice of Reason

May 13, 2008 7:44 AM | Link to this

luvs2teach, what you wrote is EXACTLY what I did: I overanalyzed the questions and totally talked myself out of the right answer. For some crazy reason, I would think, OK, now what are they really asking me? LOL.

Overall, I do feel IF students know up front that certain tests are REQUIRED to graduate and walk, then that’s what they’ll have to do. A rule is a rule. But I SO feel the pain of any students who, otherwise, are A+ students, but don’t do well on those things.

I can’t think of how much money I—a poor girl from a poor family—spent on those test-taking practice labs, where I went through question books with earphones on my ears (I forgot the one I went to then). There were people in there preparing for MCATs, LSATs, etc.

By JustMe

May 13, 2008 7:45 AM | Link to this

jd - You are absolutely correct on the definition. But, per that definition, the beginning for these students cannot begin until they complete high school. Thusly, if students cannot complete the high school requirements (which include passing the GHSGT), then they cannot begin the next chapter.

So, your very definition supports why those students should not walk.

By Voice of Reason

May 13, 2008 7:55 AM | Link to this

Stanley Kaplan! Yes, that was it. Oh, the hours I spent in that place.

By jim d

May 13, 2008 8:08 AM | Link to this

JM,

Perhaps it is just a matter of perspective.

I see it totally as a beginning. Regardless of what has transpired in the past every senior is in fact moving on to the next stage of life. Nothing for them will remain as it has been.

Granted some students will move on to bigger and better things and some will just move on but they do move on. Some may stay in school, some may go after a GED, some will enter the work force and some will continue to spit out babies. But the all move. So in essence they are beginning a new chapter in their lives. (I personally feel that is worth celebrating—- and have purchased a bottle of 18 year Glen Levitt to do so.)

By JeremiahWright

May 13, 2008 8:45 AM | Link to this

luke30127

Give me the test. I’ll take it, and I’ll pass with flying colors. When you let people through school without minimum requirements, you’re left with those dolts on “Are you Smarter than a 5th Grader?” who can’t answer basic questions. I’ve never seen dumber people in my life.

By PTCMomma

May 13, 2008 4:09 PM | Link to this

To walk in a graduation ceremony, one should be graduating. It’s not rocket science…. why would one walk if one was not graduating? Makes no sense.

By WFC

May 14, 2008 8:21 AM | Link to this

DEAR JEFF: Kid Rock plagiarized the “It ain’t bragging…” quote from baseball Hall of Famer Dizzy Dean who said it 20+ years before the Kid was born. Just thought you would want to know.

By Jeff

May 14, 2008 8:37 AM | Link to this

WFC:

Somehow, I doubt Dean used the “MFer” part. But thanks for the tip. My primary knowledge of the quote, however, comes from Rock’s Cocky.

By Mandy

May 28, 2008 6:04 PM | Link to this

I think that all of them should walk, even with just a certificate of completion… As for all the Negative Comments, try going back to school & taking or retaking the Proficiency tests… lets see how good you would do now!

By SCD

June 4, 2008 1:29 PM | Link to this

My son’s situation is a bit different. He passed the GHSGT with flying colors when he took it as a Junior. Due to the lack of organization at his school he was not able to walk or graduate because of 1 class that he needs to take. He was also listed in the school’s graduation program as having one of the highest SAT scores in the senior class(he scored 1750). But still he cant get his diploma until he takes this class in summer school. I am not sure if we have any recourse for getting his diploma with out him taking that one class. I think that he has proven himself enough and shouldnt have to be going thru this. Any suggestions? (Don’t be rude just because you are anonymous, serious responses are greatly appreciated.)

By Mom

June 5, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

SCD,

I have the same situation. My son is lacking 1/2 credit and they will not let him walk in the graduation ceremony.

He has 1420 SAT, 4.5 GPA, 5 AP classes, etc. etc. etc.