Get Schooled

By Ernest

May 2, 2008 8:57 AM | Link to this

I’m not a teacher but in conversations that I’ve had with many is that improved work conditions would do more to attract and retain good teachers than anything else. Being compensated well for something you enjoy doing is ‘icing on the cake’.

By WFC

May 2, 2008 9:43 AM | Link to this

Money IS important but the real problem is that teachers are treated as PEASANTS were in medieval times. Dullard teachers will tolerate it for a variety of reasons. Good teachers with ambition won’t. Look at the resume’s of principals and downtown administrators if you want a clue. Better yet, sit in on a few graduate “leadership” classes.

By JustMe

May 2, 2008 9:44 AM | Link to this

Let’s look at any generic profession…

Higher pay means that more people will go into that profession. Many people go into the medical profession for the $100,000+ salarys. Many people become lawyers for the money. The reality is that more money means a larger work force in that profession.

With respect to teaching, the same applies. More money would draw more people to the profession.

But, would those be the “good” teachers - some may be, but not all. Teaching requires more than smart folks. Teachers must be able to handle discipline problems (from students, from parents, and from administration), they must be creative (make good lessons, etc.), and must have many other skills.

What do current teachers want? We want what anyone wants…. appropriate pay for the work that we do. Value our work, and pay appropriately. Support us when we do have to deal with crazy students or parents. Provide us with a good working environment - and this means classroom supplies, heating and air, a roof that doesn’t leak, etc.

The teacher shortage is in the ‘critical’ areas of high school math and science. These areas are critical because qualified people in those areas can find better jobs (higher pay with better working conditions) in the corporate world.

Possibly, an idea that we can do in GA (which is done in many States) is to pay teachers in critical areas more. Just a thought.

By L.King

May 2, 2008 9:45 AM | Link to this

Pay could help, but most teachers want more than just money. If you are not happy then you will work just to get paid. When that happen, the students will not get the teacher’s best. I believe most teachers want support and respect from Principals, teachers and parents. Students will be students so I do not believe students are the problem in keeping teachers in the schools.

I believe there should be University and school partnerships that help train teachers while they are in college. Local school districts can do more seminars with students along with the university conducting more professional development after students are teachers.

I also believe that there should be more classroom time for future teachers. I know for secondary education majors we had one semester for our internship, but I believe that each semester once the student is in the College of Ed should include classroom time each semester.

For current teachers, master teachers should be mentors for new teachers and poor teachers. If there is a teacher that has not reached his/her goals based on their professional development plan, they should get fired.

By BlueMoon

May 2, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

First, align teacher pay in this state to at least reach the median US avg. We’re no where close right now. Second, allow teachers moving into the state to keep their tenure. Teachers are losing all of their benefits after teaching 10-20 years in another state. Not a good way to make friends. Third, get rid of the bureaucracy. Of course, that will never happen until we privatize the school system. A conference on education just done at Oxford University truly feels that public education as it is set up now is on it’s death bed. I truly hope so.

By L.King

May 2, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

Pay could help, but most teachers want more than just money. If you are not happy then you will work just to get paid. When that happen, the students will not get the teacher’s best. I believe most teachers want support and respect from Principals, teachers and parents. Students will be students so I do not believe students are the problem in keeping teachers in the schools.

I believe there should be University and school partnerships that help train teachers while they are in college. Local school districts can do more seminars with students along with the university conducting more professional development after students are teachers.

I also believe that there should be more classroom time for future teachers. I know for secondary education majors we had one semester for our internship, but I believe that each semester once the student is in the College of Ed should include classroom time each semester.

For current teachers, master teachers should be mentors for new teachers and poor teachers. If there is a teacher that has not reached his/her goals based on their professional development plan, they should get fired.

By JustMe

May 2, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

BlueMoon FYI, even teachers moving WITHTIN the State of GA loose out. For example, if a teacher with 15 years of experience moves from Fayette Co. to Fulton Co, only 7 years of experience goes with her. The other 8 years of experience are ‘lost’.

So, the teacher that was in Fayette Co. on the pay scale with 15 years of experience drops down on the pay scale for Fulton Co. to only 7 years.

Yeah - GA school systems really give a crap about teachers….. Does anyone really wonder why GA education is in such a mess?

Allow me to ‘beat my drum’ again: we need a real teacher union in GA. Join AFT (American Federation of Teachers).

By jim d

May 2, 2008 10:25 AM | Link to this

Nope,

And I challenge anyone to document where throwing more money at education has improved anything in the past.

By Jason

May 2, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

“First, align teacher pay in this state to at least reach the median US avg. We’re no where close right now.”

The median personal income in the U.S. is about $25K. The mean is about $36K. To my knowledge, most teachers—including first-years—earn more than both of these figures.

By new mom

May 2, 2008 10:37 AM | Link to this

I taught one year only. It was the worst year of my life—and I didn’t renew my contract even after being offered a step up raise to what a 3rd year teacher made. In fact, any salary on that chart would not have kept me there. For me, it was definitely not about money.

Teachers today face a different set of issues then in the past. They are made to teach to the lowest common denominator, so the average and above kids are bored and never challenged. They deal with parents, who either are overly-involved and critique every thing the teacher does, or they are complete no-shows. In the school I taught, the administrators never showed any concern for the students, or shared a belief that the students needed to be TAUGHT. Instead, their concerns were keeping the parents happy and making sure their school looked good compared to others in the county.

As you can see, I had a pretty terrible experience. I had worked for 7 years after college before teaching, so I had good work experiences to compare it to. I put my heart into teaching, but I also knew that ‘work’ didn’t have to be such agony. There were other first year teachers fresh out of college who were struggling, but just thought that ‘this is the way it is’ and trudged on. I felt bad for them, but I also didn’t want to discourage them more then they already were.

During the period when I had not made known my decision to not come back, other teachers kept trying to encourage me, saying ‘you are such a good teacher, don’t give up, it will get easier’. But once I let it be known that I didn’t renew my contract, many of those same teachers came to me privately and whispered, ‘you did the right thing’, and ‘if i didn’t have 10 years invested, i would be out of here’. How sad is that? Schools full of teachers who feel passionate about teaching, but who are made to be miserable by parents and administrators.

I miss the teaching part, and I really miss being around children. But I haven’t regretted my decision to leave the teaching profession. We have a new baby now, and we’re saving to send her to private school.

By Lynn

May 2, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

Increasing teacher pay would certainly help to compensate the dedicated teachers who definitely view this a great responsibility. I speak as the spouse of a teacher who also coaches. In addition to his IB and AP classes he also coaches a sport that requires year round involvement including cutting the grass, fundraising and numerous other activities. His typical work day is 14 hours with 16 hours plus typical during the season. Due to the socioeconomics of this school we contribute a significant amount of our own money each year to meet the needs of the students he teaches and the players he coaches.

As he often states, without a supportive spouse earning a significant income, teaching would not be possible for many teachers.

By Pompano

May 2, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

We would wind up paying more for the same level of talent we get today.

Until you have mechanisms in place to hold teacher’s accountable for their performance and jettison those not up to par, we’re only throwing money away.

Funny how in the Private sector, automatic raises not tied to any performance objectives are a thing of the past - yet in the Educational sector they are considered an entitlement.

I don’t begrudge paying good teachers a good salary. However, the salaries for non-teaching positions has entered the realm of insanity. Sups like Wilbanks in Gwinnett or the idiot Clayton just hired would be mediocre mid-level managers in the Private sector earning 25% of what they steal from the taxpayers.

By Jesse's Girl

May 2, 2008 10:55 AM | Link to this

The issue of money is indeed important…even our police officers and our firemen have to yell about their insulting salaries. But even more than that, if teachers were allowed to be teachers again, I really believe that our schools would see a dramatic and swift change. So often, teachers are having to endure an integrated class. Meaning that the children who in past years would have been in a special education setting, are now being included with the “normal” class. These teachers…and I have seen this first hand…spend an inordinate amount of time dealing with emotional outbursts, physical confrontations and the need for one on one tutoring sessions. This is even true for the few teachers who are allowed a full/part time para-pro. Teachers have become glorified babysitters, nurses and psychologists who only really teach about 3 hours a day. Lets not forget about the pressure they feel under to perform for AYP and NCLB…..its crap. Its no wonder all of our good teachers aren’t gone. Leave political correctness at the door, stop tying our teachers’ hands and give them some power back in their own classrooms. No one becomes a teacher for the money…they do it for love of children and their education.

By jim d

May 2, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Here’s a few facts from 06.

By EducatorX3

May 2, 2008 11:05 AM | Link to this

JustMe…While your points are good ones, you can strengthen your argument by checking your information.

To answer the question: Higher pay would bring MORE teachers. Would it bring BETTER teachers? That is hard to answer. It might create more competition to enter schools of education. Combined with improved teacher education programs, good mentoring programs in school systems, and improved support systems, we might get BETTER teachers.

If you read all the research on teacher retention, salary is not the reason most give for leaving in the first three years. Classroom discipline issues, the feeling of isolation, and the lack of support for new teachers are the biggest factors (this is not to say that money is not way up there on the list of reasons to leave!)

It takes more than money to make a good teacher. GOOD school leaders put a plan in place to support new teachers by having structured mentoring programs, support groups for new teachers, a school culture that supports the work of all teachers, and a spirit of cooperation, collaboration, and compassion.

By gwarfan

May 2, 2008 11:26 AM | Link to this

if i did not think i would sleep with a student for better grades i would give teaching high school a shot. there have always been good teachers and bad ones everywhere, sure they deserve a raise to offset the cost of living but lots of people have not gotten a raise in the past few years worth a damn. if it is so bad then find a new job. the school system has always tried the throw money at something and see if it fixes itself why stop now its working so well in georgia isnt it

By Hysteria

May 2, 2008 11:35 AM | Link to this

If teachers didn’t have two jobs, the salary might be worth it.

Unfortunately, they have to parent and try to teach. The latter is impossible without the former.

A good number of parents are seemingly downright refusing to instill discipline, respect, and ambition in their kids. If any of these three areas increase, you’ll see more people wanting to teach. Right now, the experience is draining everyone that has to deal with a classroom of hooligans. And it’s very obvious.

Parents need to step up. If we can’t get that, we need to make it easier to remove unruly kids from the school and at the same time make it it easier for neighboring schools to refuse to admit the child.

By ConcernedForGA'sFuture

May 2, 2008 11:43 AM | Link to this

As a nontraditional student who gets to listen and observe our latest crop of teachers-in-training while stomping around the college campus everyday, I will tell you that the education system is in for a world of hurt in the coming years.

I sincerely believe that money and benefits do indeed play an important role in attracting qualified workers, and that includes hiring qualified teachers. Just try to get by in business by filling high profile/stress roles with low paying, academically challenged employees and see what happens to the business. We in Georgia aren’t paying for the best and one truly does get what one pays for.

I have been told time and again by these future shapers of young minds that they hate having to go to their Gen-Ed courses such as English, History, Math, Chemistry, Science, blah, blah, blah, because, heaven forbid they have to actually study. Also, they can’t wait to get to their “major” courses in education, where it is sooooo much easier there. I have been told (with an air of snooty disdain, btw) that they “don’t read the assigned book” and can they borrow my notes, since I actually do read the assigned book(s). I look at them in sheer amazement, for I find this kind of mindset from a FUTURE TEACHER to be quite unsettling. Seriously, is this the kind of teacher you want for your children?

We don’t pay teachers enough, period. It’s beginning to show in the quality of people that is being attracted to this area, and not just in Georgia. The people of Georgia better wake up and do something about this. Not only for your children’s sake , but good heavens, your TAXES are paying to keep this mindset alive.

By Old School

May 2, 2008 11:45 AM | Link to this

This teacher would just like to feel like her voice is heard; that she is smart enough to know there are problems and clever enough to help find the solutions; that she is valued as a teacher; that her efforts to reach ALL her students are recognized; that her skills cannot be measured simply by checking off the “stuff” stuck on her walls or written on her markerboard.

I do need to make a living but I’ve learned that my paycheck is not why I’m still in this after 34 years. I love teaching. I look forward to each day. I try to bounce back better after every setback or challenge.

I’ve never had a problem with any evaluation of my performance…not even when we had 5 each year. I’ve never complained about my salary, I’ve just found ways to live within it.

I worry about those folks just starting out in teaching because today’s economy will likely drive the good ones away and the inadequate ones will stay.

By HS Teacher Too

May 2, 2008 11:49 AM | Link to this

Ernest is right on.

Jim d, I think you’re right — but only in the sense that the money has gone elsewhere. Is there evidence of what happens when teacher salaries are increased, and not increased funding for bogus programs? For example, was there ever a time when the state unilaterally said they were upping teacher salaries by a significant amount so that there would be a “before” and “after” for comparison’s sake?

New mom — I all-too-well know what you are describing, and you have described the problem to a tee! It is really a shame, and I couldn’t agree with you more about the poor kids who think “this is the way it is,” and are just lemmings for the administration’s whims. (I always found it to be compounded when those people were right out of college and returning to the system they graduated from — they truly had NO other frame of reference. It made me really angry, in a way, because the problem of “as it has been and forever shall be” just continues on.)

Do you think it would have been different if you had a strong administration who took no nonsense and “protected” its teachers, so to speak, or was that not the problem?

By Cranium

May 2, 2008 11:54 AM | Link to this

Jesse’s Girl, you hit the nail on the head. Inclusion is killing me in the classroom. I am not trained to be a special ed teacher, yet I am required to take 2 or 3 special ed students every year, in addition to my behaviorally challenged students, and somehow be able to teach everybody. Between paperwork, IEP meetings and special training to deal with all this, my actual teaching time has become extremely limited - which is not fair to the mainstream kids. I am not saying that I don’t support inclusion but as with everything in this country, we have gone completely overboard in demanding what our kids get in the classroom. The teachers ought to have more input than they actually do and parents should be able to accept that not every child is able to be in a mainstream classroom.

By jim d

May 2, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Contrary to popular belief higher salaries would not bring better teachers. Merely more teachers seeking higher paying jobs.

That being said we could then argue merit pay, but that’s a subject even most teachers can’t agree on and in my opinon would only improve education if it were done in conjunction with CHOICE schools.

JM, listen carefully. How this could work is if we payed teachers on a per student basis. That bases would be determined by parents selecting the school that best filled the need. It would reason then that Good schools would have more students, since the funding would follow the student—schools doing a good job would have more funding and teachers would get their share. Choice really is a win - win situation for students, teachers, and parents.

By V for Vendetta

May 2, 2008 12:15 PM | Link to this

As many have previously said, money is not everything. If I knew that my ideas would be treated with respect, that I wouldn’t be scrutinized based on the failure of students who have had a LONG history of substandard performance, and that I could teach without having to conform to some higher authority’s ideas of education, then perhaps I wouldn’t even THINK about higher pay. Then again …

Why not pay teachers in the same manner as other highly educated and trained private sector employees (keep in mind, the current form of public education could not financially support this suggestion). As a teacher becomes more educated, his or her salary should increase in accordance with other jobs. If a teacher spends seven or eight years working on his or her doctorate, he or she should be paid as much as a medical doctor—both provide valuable services to society, both require extensive field experience, and both professions are theoretically respected by the population at large. Unfortunately, only one of those professions is treated with the respect it engenders in people’s minds.

Sure, as some would say, there are bad teachers out there who would go through all that schooling just to receieve the higher paycheck. They might argue that those teachers aren’t worth the money.

Well, neither are doctors who leave sponges in surgery patients, but you can’t account for everyone.

By Pompano

May 2, 2008 12:16 PM | Link to this

jim d - I’m surprised the Moderator didn’t block you for using the word “Choice” in your posting.

Your idea makes too much sense. Therefore the Educational Establishment will fight to the death against it.

Our Educators don’t understand terms like “Choice” or “Accountability”. Their only solution to any problem is “Gimme more money”.

By Jesse's Girl

May 2, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

Though not directly related….still a huge gripe. They’ve taken away our rights as parents to consider school choice. The reason given is so ridiculous! They think it will cause a huge over population problem at the more choice schools. But this argument is so full of crap it stinks. The # of parents who would physically drive their children to their school choice is maybe 1-2%. The rest would not be able or willing to drive out of the way and therefore would rely on bus transportation. All of this in an attempt to avoid furthering the already horrid reputations some schools already have. Well guess what y’all….because of the calibre of teachers and mainly students at these less than desireable schools, their reputations will persist with or without school choice. Over crowding will not happen. But you are forcing stellar students to go to sub-par schools with sometimes dangerous consequenses. BRING BACK SCHOOL CHOICE!!!!

By Pompano

May 2, 2008 12:20 PM | Link to this

In yesterdays Editorial section, a letter was published by the President of Spelman re: needing easier access to Student Loans and more Financial aid for Students. In the article, she referecned the high cost of education - $30,000 per year.

Why the heck does a College education cost $30,000 per year these days?

By Jeff

May 2, 2008 12:24 PM | Link to this

Would more money keep teachers in the classroom longer? CERTAINLY. Heck, even in my new job as a programmer, my bosses in Macon will lose me as soon as I can find a job in Albany - unless they start making the pay worth my effort. (For NOW - for the first time in our marraige - I make more than T, a 4th year teacher, but as soon as she gets her raise in Sept, I - a programmer will once again be making less than her - a teacher!)

Now, that being said, there are also SEVERAL other factors. For example: When a kid assaults a teacher, work to get rid of the kid - not the teacher. When a kid disobeys a teacher - in any form - bust the kid up one side and down the other so that that kid and every other kid around gets the message that teachers are to be obeyed, no matter what. Don’t just assume that the teacher ‘was being too strict’. When a kid doesn’t turn in an assignment AT ALL, allow the teacher to give him a ZERO indicating such. Don’t force the teacher to violate their morals and academic philosophies in order to make your job easier. When a kid makes a sexual pass/comment to a teacher, crucify the KID, not the teacher. When a kid fails a class because he refused to do anything, don’t assume the teacher was wrong/”didn’t do enough to reach him”. Make him repeat the class! Don’t force the teacher to adapt to 180 different learning styles, force the student to adapt to 6 teaching styles!

I could go on and on and on…. and I was only in the classroom for a single year!

By MrLiberty

May 2, 2008 12:26 PM | Link to this

Look at outcomes.

Private schools deliver on average a better quality product, no matter how you measure it.

They alro pay their teachers lowere than any government school.

More money equals more money. That is all.

By MrLiberty

May 2, 2008 12:30 PM | Link to this

Just before W was elected to office, the salary for president went from $200,000 to $400,000 per year.

Nuf said!

There are no good government employees.

By jim d

May 2, 2008 12:43 PM | Link to this

V,

Here’s the flaw in your plan, it is not based on results. I’ve seen many educated people that couldn’t teach and I’ve seen barely educated teachers that Could to so very well.

It must be based on outcomes and what better way to measure than parents satisfaction?

By OH MY!

May 2, 2008 12:49 PM | Link to this

Have higher prices brought us better gas?

By mad russian

May 2, 2008 12:50 PM | Link to this

As a teacher, I feel that my pay is appropriate for what I do. This may because I feel that I don’t have a lot of the materialistic needs that many other people have. Pay is important, but it does not always motivate. The issue I hold has already been mentioned in regards to respect. Teachers are treated as second class citizens by society in general. No offense, but 99% of the critics and parents couldn’t do my job for a week. As a science teacher, I have almost no budget available to me due to the many stringent requirements from the “think tanks” known as our local, state, and federal governments. I spend at least $2000 of my own money each year so my students can experience science rather than listen to me talk about it. I hate textbooks, they’re a crock and have numerous errors and standards based assessment does not demonstrate understanding of a concept. Unfortunately the requirements set forth by “experts” and over-active involvement of parents has crippled our public education system ultimately hurting the students. I’m considered to be a great teacher at my school (with all of my evaluations since I started six years ago in the mid 90s) but I completely understand why many leave. Of the many I know that have left, it’s not because of the money but the lack of respect and order in our schools. Pompano obviously has no respect for teachers and views us as his/her servants. I’m not against choice, as long as the choice makes sense. If you were to actually read the standards of NCLB, you would understand how race and class based it truly is to your children.

I was sad to read ConcernedForGA’sFuture’s passage and how many students in education are taking the classes because they are easy. I worked my behind off for my degree in biology and hated every minute of my education courses (taken via alternative certification) as I felt that they were completely unrealistic in terms of idealism in the classroom. Obviously most of those students will only last a year and move on to another profession suited to their aspirations (such as fry cook at a fast food place).

In my final note, money is not the issue, it’s support and respect. In most countries outside of the U.S., teachers are treated with respect and admiration and are considered to be the most important members of a village or town. Let’s move back the beliefe that without teachers, none of us would have ever achieved our dreams. Right now, you could decide to become a doctor (even if you are in your 40s) but without teachers to assist you, the path would be almost impossible. We open the paths and provide the instruction to help our students make their own choices, we just want them to become lifelong learners. It’s unfortunate that the system is so broken right now and that the only proposal is to offer more money to educators.

By jim d

May 2, 2008 12:54 PM | Link to this

pompi,

“Why the heck does a College education cost $30,000 per year”

Cause the poor suckers playing the lottery have driven up the cost by making more money available. Whatcha gonna do?

By jim d

May 2, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

Mr. L

Exactly how long do you think you’d enjoy your LIBERTY without the young men and women serving in the armed services as employees of the federal government?

By ESOL

May 2, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

I’m actually quite content with my salary, my school, and my teaching position. Before entering this field, I knew that I would never make big money as an educator. I also quickly learned that in order to make more money, you need more degrees. I have a masters and a specialist. A specialist is a degree above a masters and below a doctorate.

Considering the fact that we have 10-12 weeks of vacation per year (even if staff development and coaching take up part of it), I’m still happy. Are there things about my job I dislike? Sure. Who doesn’t have gripes? However, I have more time than most with my family, and I make enough money to live comfortably.

Oh, and my spouse is also an educator. We’re fine financially, and we’ve both found our life-long careers.

Did anyone mention the pension? NO one else today gets a pension. We are very fortunate. Even if we don’t take home more money on an annual basis, we are set for retirement. Most people don’t retire after 30 years. Educators do, and we have a set income for life. Why are you complaining?

On a side note, I truly think I’ve discovered the best population to teach - English as a Second Language students. They want to learn, and they value education. Then again, my spouse’s AP students aren’t bad either.

Find a niche in the field, make it work, and think positively. My kids are absolutely a joy.

By Jason

May 2, 2008 1:21 PM | Link to this

“Why the heck does a College education cost $30,000 per year these days?”

Well, considering Georgia spends about $8K/pupil, K-12, without the cost of room and board, it’s pretty easy to see why a college education runs upward of $30K/year.

By jim d

May 2, 2008 1:22 PM | Link to this

Mr. Ruski,

Rather difficult to respect a profession when you can do a quick Google search and come up with the Likes of this in the blink of an eye.

Teachers are people just like everyone else. Respect is earned my friend by the many dedicated teachers that do exist and don’t expect it without earning it.

Bottom line? I may respect the teacher but never the teacher based soley upon their profession.

By Pompano

May 2, 2008 1:25 PM | Link to this

Wow mad russian - so advocating School Choice and Accountability somehow means that I have no respect for teachers??

In some ways, you may be correct. Those like you who think that I - as a taxpayer - should just be satisified with an inferior and over-priced solution - I do indeed feel comtempt. Stealing money from taxpayers with no accountabilty and no results - what’s to respect about that? Your fear of facing competition in order to maintain this failing endeavor - what’s to respect about that?

By Lee

May 2, 2008 2:01 PM | Link to this

If more money equals better teachers, then Cobb County must have one helluva In-School Suspension teacher — seeing as how they’re paying him $114k per year.

Not bad scratch for a glorified study hall monitor…

You can go here to look up salaries of your local school district. For each salary, add about 25% to prorate to a 12 month “real world” salary. Now do you think teachers are underpaid? (Hint: that Cobb County teacher above would prorate up to $142k)

V, thanks for the chuckle. “If a teacher spends seven or eight years working on his or her doctorate, he or she should be paid as much as a medical doctor.” ROFL

If y’all want market based rates, by all means, go ahead. What is the market for a kindergarten teacher, anyway? I guarantee you they don’t get paid $60-80k in the private school sector.

By John

May 2, 2008 2:04 PM | Link to this

Hey, here’s a novel idea for attracting good teachers, bounce the punks and thugs out of the school system. That will greatly improve quality of education the remaining students recieve.

By V for Vendetta

May 2, 2008 2:19 PM | Link to this

JimD, There’s a slight problem with your plan as well. Parents’ satisfaction means different things to different people. For parents like you, it means your child receives a quality education from experienced teachers. I unfortunately think that the majority of parents would view “satisfaction” as a passing grade, regardless of whether or not their child actually deserves it.

Truth be told, there is NO consistent way to evaluate the performance of teachers, which is precisely why a plan like mine will never work :-)

Sure, we all know who the bad teachers are, but it can be surprisingly difficult to PROVE it. Some would say students’ results tell the tale, but I completely disagree. A teacher gets a random selection of students that are (supposedly) grouped by ability. Because the student distribution is random, it is highly likely that the results of those students will vary from year to year. Some will succeed and some will fail regardless of who their teacher is.

You can lead a horse to water …

By JustMe

May 2, 2008 2:26 PM | Link to this

Lee First of all, everyone on this blog has heard multiple times about this Cobb County suspension teacher - old news.

Second of all, you CANNOT “pro-rate” teacher salarys. All teachers are paid by contract for a given number of work days. Our pay is then divided up into intervals such that we are paid a regular amount throughout the year. We do not get “summers off” because we work for that money and it is withheld by the school system and then given to us over the summer months.

Finally, you use kindergarden teachers for your example to belittle teachers in general. What about a math PhD teaching calculus in high school? What about a science PhD teaching physics in high school? Should they also be paid a small salary? Is that their “market value?” Do you still “ROFL?”

Just wondering…. how did YOU do in calculus or physics courses? Or, did you even take those classes?

By JustMe

May 2, 2008 2:50 PM | Link to this

LEE Keep in mind that in GA, a 1st grade teacher (with a PhD) is currently paid on the same pay scale as a math PhD teaching calculus in high school or a science PhD teaching physics in high school.

I really think this is wrong and causes problems. Elementary teachers are plentiful, but math and science high school teachers are hard to find (there is a shortage). Other States allow different pay scales, but for some reason GA is different.

By Lee

May 2, 2008 3:23 PM | Link to this

JustMe, you keep hearing about this In-School Suspension teacher because I keep bringing him up. He is Exhibit A as to why the current salary structure needs revamping.

Second, the reason I pro-rate salaries is because teachers are paid for a ~190 day work year. Corporate America gets paid for a 260 day minus about 20 days for vacation and holidays. You want to compare apples to apples, add 25% (which is what you would make if you worked an additional 50 days per year.

Next, I am not belittling Kindergarten teachers. I am pointing out that there is a job market for Kindergarten teachers in private school, private daycares, and church related schools. I guarantee you they don’t get paid the same scale that public school teachers get paid.

Finally, you and I agree on one thing. The salary scale does not take into account market based realities. SOME disciplines have other career opportunities available to them and if you want them to teach, you’re going to have to make their pay more comparable to the external job market. I’m thinking more of the math and science types here.

Speaking of which, I would rather my high school student attend Calculus class taught by a retired Engineer with 30+ years real world experience than somebody who got a Phd through one of those on-line diploma mills.

By HS Teacher Too

May 2, 2008 3:27 PM | Link to this

jim d, Here’s why you can’t let parents make the determination of a good teacher — because too many parents are irrational and don’t want what’s best for the student; they want what’s best for the college apps. As a teacher, I would rather have my own children in a class where they had to really work to earn an A, as opposed to a class where As were handed out like candy. Where’s the learning, then? But parents — or, I should clarify, too many parents — want the As. (Ask any teacher: the easier they are, the fewer parent complaints they have. Now what happens when the kids move on and are not prepared for the next class? Well parents will grumble but I have never known a parent to retroactively go after a teacher for being “too easy.”)

I think parents are the best advocates for their children, more often than not. But I don’t think that they are always qualified to judge teachers.

By high school teacher

May 2, 2008 3:35 PM | Link to this

Keep in mind that in GA, a 1st grade teacher (with a PhD) is currently paid on the same pay scale as a math PhD teaching calculus in high school or a science PhD teaching physics in high school. I really think this is wrong and causes problems.

Have you ever tried teaching math to a first grader? Give me the calculus group any day of the week!

I have seen some pretty terrible multi-degreed teachers. Good teaching is not dependent on the number of letters after your name.

By Elsie

May 2, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

You usually hear teachers commenting on teacher pay only after they have been driven mad by the working conditions. Yes, we know what we will make when we sign our contracts~ and it can easily be worth it when you are in a teaching situation that you enjoy. It’s when you throw in the miserable conditions that good teachers leave the profession, saying “they don’t pay me enough for that”.

Teaching is reaching a crisis point in the United States. I can see many parallels between current teaching conditions and the pre-strike nursing conditions of a few years ago. Didn’t we learn anything?

By Jeff

May 2, 2008 4:29 PM | Link to this

HST:

Ah, but the math of the level of a first grader is easily done with TONS of every day hand-held items…

Not so with calculus…

Teaching 1 + 1 = 2 or even (if you want to say that pre-algebra is being pushed all the way into first grade) 1 + ? = 2 or 1 + 1 = ? is CAKE when all ya gotta do is pick up two of their crayons….

NOW, if we were teaching actual calculus to 1st graders, different story. THEN, I would begin to feel sorry for the elementary teachers.

By jim d

May 2, 2008 5:12 PM | Link to this

HSTeach too,

Education is one of the few occupations left where customer satisfaction is not a factor. Hell, if My customers become unhappy they just find someone else. This is how one measures success. By the number of repeat customers you have. Education in this country will never succeed until customer satisfation becomes a factor and that dear freind can only happen by allowing choice.

we can pick our doctors, we can pick our lawyers, we can pick just about any professional we want, hell for enough money we can even pick their nose. Education on the other hand fears rejection to such an extent that they must demand, by law, that we surrender our children to them for the education they think is best for them. I say BULL $H IT!!

The only way to defeat a fear is to face it head on!

Oh yeah, forgot I was talking about teachers, forgive me. They’ve proven they have no balls. Hell they won’t even stand up for themselves, and you’d lead us to believe they would stand up for our children? HAAA!!!

By new mom

May 2, 2008 5:27 PM | Link to this

HS Teacher Too, sorry I was slow to answer your question. You had asked me Do you think it would have been different if you had a strong administration who took no nonsense and “protected” its teachers, so to speak, or was that not the problem? And honestly, it would have been different. I was once called in to the principal’s office to be ambushed by an upset mother—who was mad at me because I had ‘made a face’ at her daughter the day before. Well, I was with the same group of 10 year olds all day long, it was inevitable that I was going to make some kind of face at them! They were 10 year olds!! The principal just joined in the attack, never once defended me or tried to see my side. It was that kind of stuff that got me. In the business world, bosses know to look out for their employees and treat them with respect. So yes, a decent administration would have made a difference.

The other fundamental issue I had with teaching is the all-cosuming nature of it. I am a perfectionist, and I always went ‘all-out’ with every lesson, every project, graded every paper, stayed up late every night, etc. After a few months, I was dead woman walking. Other teachers would say ‘you don’t have to grade every paper’ or ‘don’t take work home with you’. I still to this day don’t know how that is possible, but I know it wasn’t for me. I just couldn’t not do the work and just let stuff go.

All that said, I would have very likely stayed another year if the administration had been different. But before I left, I talked to other teachers in other schools and even other counties, who were honest enough to tell me that these types of issues are everywhere, just to varying degrees.

I do think it would be great if all teachers would take a year (or several) to work outside the education field before they start teaching. Because I had other experiences, I was able to bring a different perspective to my classroom, and (hopefully) show my students that these skills really are necessary in their lives. However, if a lot of teachers did this, we would have a severe drop in the good teachers—who would find out that life outside the classroom is often much better. Sad….

Yikes, sorry for the long rambling post! :)

By C.R.H.

May 2, 2008 6:00 PM | Link to this

There is school choice…you had a choice about where you would live and therefore the school district your child would attend. You can also CHOOSE to send your kid to a private school or homeschool. As far as teacher quality at private schools (and some of the “better” public schools); the teachers there look good because the test scores look good. Truth be told, the students at these schools would do well even if you put a chimpanzee in front of the room. Most of the teachers in the East Cobb schools wouldn’t last 1 week at a school like Pebblebrook, South Cobb or Osborne. I know many teachers in East Cobb and I taught in one of the south Cobb schools…they wouldn’t last! Same goes for private school teachers, I taught in one of those as well, left because I couldn’t afford to live on less than $20K a year (with a master’s degree!). I still think a few people on this blog need to walk a mile in a teacher’s shoes, since they seem to think they have all the answers

By HS Teacher Too

May 2, 2008 6:02 PM | Link to this

jim d,

Don’t get me wrong. I think there is a tremendous amount wrong with public schooling today, and there are probably just as many poor teachers are there are great teachers, and there’s a whole lot in between. But how to measure that, is the big question, and I firmly believe that it can not be based on “parent satisfaction,” for the same reasons I said earlier and V said even before I did.

By jim d

May 2, 2008 8:50 PM | Link to this

Indeed we disagree and I’m ok with y’all being wrong. :-)

By Lynn II-retired teacher

May 2, 2008 8:59 PM | Link to this

In all the years I taught, I never knew my gross pay until income tax time. I knew how much I brought home, and it was plenty for me. When other little girls played house with their dolls, I played school. I never wanted to do anything else.

In my field, I taught every child in the school, and I woke up every morning knowing I had the best job in the world and could not wait to get to school.

I received many awards, and my students received awards every year. Their success was worth much more than MONEY.

At least in my field, better teacher education programs are needed, and better screening of students allowed into these programs would be helpful.

I was very sad when I retired, but I knew my time was up, and it was time to leave this profession to younger people. I just hope the new teachers coming into my profession will love it as much as I did.

By Marianne

May 2, 2008 9:18 PM | Link to this

Wow. I can’t believe that teachers have so much idealism left in them in today’s world. All of this talk about “respect for me and my ideas” is not gonna cut it in our country. Are you kidding me? Where on earth did you get the idea that people are gonna respect you and your ideas? Have you looked around at what’s happening in our country, lately? There’s not a whole lot of respect for anyone, anywhere. Besides, you don’t look for respect on the outside, you build it for yourself and, as far as I see it, teachers don’t have it. It sounds like a lot of waah, waah, waah, to me. Doormats, every last one of you!

Have you teachers forgotten that you live in a capitalist-oriented society?

For once, I agree with the “voucher” crowd, but for different reasons. Teachers should get off of their idealistic high horse, demand more money for their time and work (maybe even hazard pay in order to buy bullet-proof vests and tazers to use in today’s classrooms) and seek more concrete ways to measure their successes and boot their failures. Anything else is just whining. If you still wish to “make a difference” and teach “because you love it so” and “money doesn’t matter to me” then so be it. Just understand that the average, workaday person doesn’t understand that stuff and will tune it out. They have to work for a living; not a lot of time goes to “loving their jobs” and “making a difference.” You want respect? Stand up and show us that you have it for yourselves. If not, shut up, already.

By V for Vendetta

May 2, 2008 9:20 PM | Link to this

LOL JimD, you’re starting to sound like a certain someone whose name begins with J and ends with EFF.

Truth be told, Too is absolutely correct: There IS a lot terribly wrong with public education today, that much we can all agree upon, but I don’t think you’re comparing apples to apples. Let me put it this way:

Let’s say a patient comes in to the doctor’s office with incurable cancer. The doctor prescribes chemotherapy which the patient ignores. The doctor prescribes radical surgery which the patient refuses. The doctor tells the patient he will DIE if he does not HELP HIMSELF and follow the doctor’s advice. The patient still doesn’t listen.

Then the patient dies.

Whose fault is it? If you know the answer to that question then you understand my point.

As I said before, I’m not going to pretend that there aren’t bad teachers out there—hell, I had some of them myself—but they hardly derailed my entire educational experience. I think the majority are competent professionals. Well, maybe not in Clayton …

I know, I know … low blow. :-)

By JustMe

May 2, 2008 9:33 PM | Link to this

jim d- You have such a warped view of education you make me laugh almost every day. Please consider teaching at least as a substitute for a few weeks so that you can get a clue.

Customer satisfaction? Here you go: a teacher came to our school. She was immediately LOVED by the kids. The kids told the parents how WONDERFUL she was, so the parents LOVED her also. I would think you would consider that good “customer satisfaction?”

Well, the ‘rest of the story’ is that this teacher was showing hollywood movie videos every day from blockbuster - that explains why the kids LOVED her. And, when standardized testing time came around, guess what? Yep - every one of her kids failed. But ya know what? The next year every kid requested her any way because they heard how WONDERFUL she was (and how easy she was).

So, in your book that makes her a great teacher? She had great customer satisfaction, right?

You are so very warped in your own little fantasy land, you have no clue about education. Yet, you continue to proclaim to have answers when you really don’t even know the core problems!

By Lee

May 2, 2008 9:44 PM | Link to this

Regarding parents evaluating teachers:

There are two things that I see different between public school and the private school my daughter attends:

(1) The quality of the student. My daughter is actually sitting in a class of her peers - students who exhibit an ability level commensurate with her own.

(2) Everyone at the school realizes that the success of the school depends on the customer being happy. They recognize that each year, I write a check worth thousands and if they want to continue to be listed as the payee on these checks, then they have an obligation and duty to perform at a certain level. They don’t make me happy, then my daughter and my money walks out the door.

Sadly, public schools do not exhibit this same awareness and indeed, seem to be antagonistic to the parent.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with a parent filling out a “customer survey” to the school and these surveys being used during teacher and administrator evaluations. Likewise, I think teacher input should be included in the principal’s performance evaluations.

Public school employees have know that each year, they will get their annual step up raise irregardless of how well or how poorly they perform. Spend a little time and get an on-line degree from a diploma mill, and they get even more money - even though the degree has NO RELEVANCE to their teaching position.

Sad way to run a school, IMHO.

By mom3boys

May 2, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this

I’ve heard several people address the “diploma mill” issue, and feel I need to speak up. I recently finished a 20 month program from an online program. At the same time, I had co-workers at UGA and Brenau working on similar programs. Our coursework was very similar. The courses I took dealt with all the current educational research, and were very relevant for what I face in the classroom. I had classes in integrating technology into instruction, designing curriculum for assessment, teaching students with special needs, and many other courses. These programs have to be approved; we are not buying degrees. Over the course of the 20 months, I wrote over 50 papers and did a mountain of research. I would have preferred to attend a “brick and mortar” program, as those are known to be much less work (and with kids and a job that was appealing!). However, I needed the flexibility that the online program provided. Additionally, the online program was not covered by HOPE and cost significantly more than traditional college courses. So, please quit dissing the online degree programs.

Mom3Boys Master of Science in Education Walden University, 2008

By mom3boys

May 2, 2008 11:24 PM | Link to this

I’ve heard several people address the “diploma mill” issue, and feel I need to speak up. I recently finished a 20 month program from an online program. At the same time, I had co-workers at UGA and Brenau working on similar programs. Our coursework was very similar. The courses I took dealt with all the current educational research, and were very relevant for what I face in the classroom. I had classes in integrating technology into instruction, designing curriculum for assessment, teaching students with special needs, and many other courses. These programs have to be approved; we are not buying degrees. Over the course of the 20 months, I wrote over 50 papers and did a mountain of research. I would have preferred to attend a “brick and mortar” program, as those are known to be much less work (and with kids and a job that was appealing!). However, I needed the flexibility that the online program provided. Additionally, the online program was not covered by HOPE and cost significantly more than traditional college courses. So, please quit dissing the online degree programs.

Mom3Boys Master of Science in Education Walden University, 2008

By jim d

May 3, 2008 5:47 AM | Link to this

JM,

I don’t have clue about education?

Perhaps, but here’s a little observation of mine for you to ponder over the weekend, although I’m confident you won’t grasp the entire meaning.

Teachers don’t lack courage because they teach. They teach because they lack courage.

By jim d

May 3, 2008 5:59 AM | Link to this

LEE,

Obviouswly you’ve not been listening.

Parents aren’t smart enough to know if their child is getting a quality education and futhermore they don’t have a clue what is best for their children. ONLY government does!!

Better pull your kids outta that private school and surrender them over to the state before it’s too late and they are doomed for life.

By catlady

May 3, 2008 9:01 AM | Link to this

Most of my colleagues would ask for the less-tangible rewards. While the less experienced and less degreed teachers would like more money (naturally!), those who have been doing this for awhile would much rather have: a strong discipline protocol, with immediate consequences for misbehavior and adequate definitions of misbehavior from the first day of school (for example, it should not take an assault to trigger a consequence, and it should not take until May to get a child removed from the classroom); fair treatment across the board in workload, planning time, scheduling, class makeup, and administrator support for ALL teachers, no matter who they are related to; acknowledgement of the professional nature of teachers (meaning, no silly “duties” that could be done by parapros when teachers could use the time for things only we can do, such as planning); abandonment of the cure du jour method of deciding curriculum and practices which teachers suspect are lining the pockets of central administration staff; cessation of expecting something for nothing from teachers (required after school meetings for hours on the latest cure du jour. If it is that important, there should be released time for the teachers.); evaulation by teachers of the efficacy of programs (rather than CO staff who have a vested interest in spinning the results); cessation of claims to want teacher input and then ignoring the results; requiring that CO and principals have SIGNIFICANT experience in what they are administrating; classes for administrators on professional behavior and how to work with teachers and parents (not, apparently, covered by the diploma mills our administrators come from.); adherence to state policy on promotion and retention (in our county every child is promoted or placed, no matter the level of skill shown on CRCT or in the classroom); committment to providing FAPE for EVERY child in the school.

So, what we want is to be able to teach the children, and have the support we require to do so.

By mom&teacher

May 3, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

I have read this blog regularly for several years but never posted, so please forgive the length.

mom3boys—THANK YOU! I, too, get tired of the on-line program bashing. I had a choice: not further my education or take advantage of an on-line program. Like you, I would prefer face-to-face experiences. That was impossible with 3 young children. I learned a great deal in my program and worked my tail off. In comparing what colleagues at local programs were required to to, I had to do a great deal more. There are programs out there strictly to allow the pay raise, but, please, do not tar them all with the same brush!

I am not disappointed with the pay I earn as a teacher. Having worked other jobs out of college, I feel compensated well enough. The state I came from paid at a much lower rate, as do states neighboring Georgia. My objection is having my teaching judged based on the outcomes of my students. I teach third grade. At this age kids should be full of curiosity and desire to learn. Note: I said “should be”. The populations I have been teaching for nine years care more about being entertained than anything else. I deal with poor attitudes and lack of motivation daily. Many of my children just don’t turn work in. Administrative response to this is: don’t give zeros. The argument is that they are too hard to recover from. Give a 50 or 60 instead. It’s still failing. O.k. So what about the kid who works really hard and only earns a 60, or lower? I should give a kid who doesn’t do it a better grade than a kid who did? Basic instructions that maintain an orderly work environment are not followed. I don’t mind productive talking, but the children can’t handle that. The discussions degenerate rapidly and any pretense of productivity is dropped. I won’t even go into how the children behave in learning centers when I work with my small reading groups.

I have teacher friends who have moved from at-risk schools to “better” schools. Their teaching did not change except to get easier. Their students were more successful. What did change was the clientele. Comparing teachers based on student performance is unfair unless we only compare schools with similar demographic and socioeconomic factors.

I think parents who are doing their job (many on this blog) do not realize how many parents are not. Many of these parents choose to live in the same communities; that is why these communities have good schools. I do not think all parents are bad at parenting or that everything is the fault of parents. I also don’t think that all problems are the fault of bad teachers. I do think many children are coming to school lacking basic self-discipline. The result is a generation of lazy, unmotivated students who will not do anything that requires effort and isn’t fun. Note: I said ‘will not’, not ‘can not’.

By Lee

May 3, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Mom, years ago, these types of courses were called “correspondence courses” and were generally reserved for low level topics such as bookkeeping. I am an accountant and obtained my MBA through a traditional “brick and mortar” college. My wife is a schoolteacher and got her masters through an online school. There is no comparison between the two.

JimD, I don’t know what I was thinking sending the youngest to private school. I should have just bought lottery tickets. :-)

Cat, pretty much every one of your discussion points is within the realm of the school system to change. Sorta goes along with what I have been saying for years about most of the problems in public schools being self inflicted. The good news is that if it is indeed self inflicted, then it is within the power of the school system to correct.

By catlady

May 3, 2008 11:03 AM | Link to this

Lee, I know it is within the realm of the school system to change (just like salaries are within their power). I just don’t see it happening. Our supt. just threw us a 2% (local) pay raise. I am glad for it, but I would be a whole lot gladder for those things listed above, that would cost little or nothing. Not to mention that those changes would help our students make real progress in developing skills.

Instead, teachers and their “lack of effort and expertise” are being blamed. No one seems to question the programs given us to implement—their basic tenets and the assumptions upon which they are predicated. No one in authority seems to question the idea that we should “expose” the students to things, rather than that mastery needs to be accomplished before moving on to a higher level skill that is necessary for the higher level skill. We hire more administrators! Hire more “coaches”! Add yet another cure du jour! Instead of doing the things that actually work—emphasizing responsibility, mastery, comprehension, hard work on everyone’s part.

By catlady

May 3, 2008 11:16 AM | Link to this

One further comment about the “which is tougher” debate above: the calculus and physics teachers teach the top of the heap kids—a very small, self-selected group of the best and brightest. A kindergarten or first grade teacher has to produce results with not only the most able, but the mentally retarded, the uncivilized, the undiagnosed, and the majority of the run of the mill kids who will NEVER end up in physics or calculus. And that teacher has to teach them EVERYTHING, and work with their parents. Let’s see…which might be more challenging? To teach the best kids, in small groups, one hard subject… or to teach the bottom, middle, and top kids, along with handicapped kids, in much larger groups and to teach them everything including proper toilet hygiene? And I won’t even touch the challenges of teaching 6th and 7th graders! I am not interested in provoking a pizzing contest, but each group of teachers earns their money!

You are correct, however, that a person with a PhD in calc has more job prospects, in general, than a person with a PhD in ECE.

By mom3boys

May 3, 2008 1:19 PM | Link to this

Lee, I have no doubt your “brick and mortar” MBA was more rigorous than my online MS. I would assume any MBA would be more difficult than a masters in education degree. You no doubt took economics, business calculus, marketing strategy, etc. My husband spent many long nights studying for his MBA, so I know of what I speak. I was trying to compare apples to apples, however. I think the work I completed in my online program for my masters was just as rigorous or more rigorous than what some colleagues completed at “brick and mortar” institutions. They likened it to “sit and git.” Take notes, take a test. To me, that is preferrable to writing papers ad nauseum. I do not mean to get into a p** contest here. I worked hard for the degree, and I don’t appreciate the attitude of some that I jumped through hoops and purchased it. Some of what I did was a waste; but so were some of the things I did in my undergrad. With three busy kids, online worked best for me.

mom

By HS Teacher Too

May 3, 2008 1:50 PM | Link to this

Oh my word. Mom3boys, I think you took the comments about diploma mills a little too personally. Unless I mis-read some of the earlier postings, I don’t think anyone said that all online programs are hogwash. But to say that they are all not hogwash, is itself hogwash! Personally, I think that completing an online course — nevermind an entire degree program — takes discipline and motivation more than just having to drive to campus. That you completed a master’s program from a reputable university while raising children is no insignificant task. But that’s the key — it was a reputable university! To say that there aren’t far too many programs out there that aren’t worth the cost to connect to the Internet would, you must admit, be mistaken.

Now, Jim d, I meant to say this to you yesterday but ran out of time: You often say that teachers need to DO something. It occurred to me, though, that there’s a strong argument that many unhappy teachers do “do something” that may be hard to see as really making a statement — they simply transfer to schools where they are happier with the conditions. We almost never talk about this group of people, but in a very real way they might be considered silent protesters. (I say silent because they are certainly not making a fuss, and goodness knows if they even have an exit interview (yeah, right!) and do decide to tell the truth of why they are leaving, I have strong doubts that the information is then processed and used in any meaningful way.)

I by no means suggested that parents are not appropriate — sometimes, the only — judges of what is best for their children. But I have been the victim of a “witch hunt” myself, where parents were up in arms because I did not “give” As for smiling and trying hard. If parent satisfaction in that instance had set my career path, I would have been in a heap of trouble — and a lot of kids would have missed out on what I had to offer. And yes, I say a lot of kids would have missed out. That’s not to say that I wouldn’t have missed out just as much, because I love teaching, and I love the kids. But, I’m pretty confident in my teaching abilities, my desire to do the best for all of my students, and the fact that I know my stuff. Compared to a lot of other teachers out there, I am quite sure that at least some kids would have missed out had I been run out.

Now, that being said, I DO believe that some element of parent commenting is worthwhile, and ought to be considered. I just don’t think it should be determinative of what makes a good teacher. Colleges do student evaluations of teachers and it’s a well-known problem that you’re asking students to evaluate a teacher when they may be biased by their own experiences of not getting good grades and fail to see the true cause of that. It’s really, really difficult to get objective evaluations in a student-teacher (or, teacher-parent) relationship. THAT, my friend, is my gripe. I never said that parents don’t know what’s best for their own kids, and if you took that from my comments, you read too deeply into them.

By mom3boys

May 3, 2008 2:58 PM | Link to this

HSteacher, I agree most parents are doing a great job and know what is best for their child. However, some parents haven’t a clue. Here is an example: This student was failing several classes. Mom came for a conference. She stated that she didn’t know what to do to make him complete the work and to study. I said that she had several options, but my favorite was putting a child on “technology blackout” (no cell phone, computer, video games, etc..). She looked at me and said, “I can do that?”

Parents need to do their job. Some expect us to do it, and that’s not going to happen in the few hours a day I have the kiddo. As long as I’m ranting and raving, let me throw in the one thing that is breaking my heart: seeing pregnant middle schoolers!!!! Parents, your children should not be having sex in middle school. They are your children: keep an eye on them!!! Parents of young children: if you cannot control them when they are little, you have no hope of controlling them when they are teenagers…please, do your job. sigh.

By HS Teacher Too

May 3, 2008 3:15 PM | Link to this

mom3boys,

Not sure if you were talking to me, but I agree wholeheartedly that there are (too many) parents who don’t know what is best for their children. Jim d, however, thinks that teachers get on some pedestal and think they know what is best for ALL children, and I don’t think that jim d is correct — but I do agree that there are some teachers who have that attitude. I don’t — but I certainly do know some who do. Since my original post probably did come across as holier-than-thou, I felt compelled to clear up what I meant.

Pregnant middle schoolers? Oey. Qutie frankly, I think the “old days” where pregnant kids had to go to alternative schools was the right idea. Allowing the kids to continue to go to regular school in many ways romanticizes it — and sets an example for other students “See, SuzyQ did it…” I once heard another teacher say that once these kids come back to school with their babies, it’s like human-being-show-and-tell. I couldn’t agree more. It’s dispicable.

By mom3boys

May 3, 2008 3:57 PM | Link to this

HSteacher, I agree, most of us don’t think we know better than all the parents…just some =) .

The pregger 13-14 year olds then want their classes to give them baby showers!!! It is so very sad to see these girls w/ so little guidance making decisions that will impact them the rest of their lives. We can’t send them to the alternative schools, as that discriminates. One boy asked if his “paternity leave” would be an excused absence! We are not in Kansas anymore.

By catlady

May 3, 2008 8:23 PM | Link to this

9 months from now there will be a “rash” of babies. Springtime and prom always “bumps” the number of pregnant teens up.

As long as we have a society that values and glorifies the things that are currently valued, as long as we have bailouts for bad decisions, as long as we have no accountablilty, we will continue to have pregnant 13 abd 14 year olds. Policy changes could go a long way toward providing the motivation that some parents and kids need to do the right thing.

I get a sick sort of feeling looking at our fifth graders and predicting who will be in jail and who will have a child before they are 16. Actually, when I taught kindergarten I could make some of those predictions pretty accurately. Really sad.

There is a THIRD grader in a class I push into whose parents send her to school dressed as a hoochey-mama. The only trouble is, it isn’t Halloween. Friday I saw a fifth grade girl in a very low cut clingy top with her pushup bra, well, pushing up. And we are in a county with a so-called dress code!

By mom3boys

May 3, 2008 10:16 PM | Link to this

Catlady, you are so right. I do not know how to fix this. I have a couple of students who I have had to sit down and spell it out: cover yourself!! They have adult bodies, and they love to show them off. There is no attempt at modesty at all. The poor middle school boys: they are very “visual” learners. How in the world are they supposed to think about school with all the exposed flesh? As a mother of boys, I am thinking of making a statement about harassment and the compromise of the learning environment. I’m sure my principal will love me for that!

By I am impressed///

May 3, 2008 11:13 PM | Link to this

Wow, I am impressed/ You are insightful, Mom3Boys and Catlady. Are you too the same person? You are so feminine in your thinking. So sensitive. so StocKbridge in your responding to Jim d. Yes, you sound like a UGA grad. Do you teach any foreign language in Dekalb? Are you the one ( with many names ) who is on Clayton. Talk who always goes after Trotter with MACE? Give him h-ll! Whne I taught I was a GAE MEMBER! Yes, the verbal guns should give him h-ll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By Robert

May 3, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this

I am fairly familiar with MACE. I am not a member. But, I do remember that one named “Gunny Yawn” was on the website as the “Director of Communications.” I think that he does now teach in DeKalb, and I saw him one day at King High School standing at the MACE picket line. I think his photo at this scene is actually on one of MACE’s brochures. I do not think that he is a current member, although he did serve for years as President of Dekalb MACE. This information was also on the website for many years. I believe he is the teacher who filed two battery charges against two of his DeKalb administrators, and both of them were dismissed in the DeKalb County Courts. I think he also sued the school system for discrimination for several million dollars, but this case was also dismsissed. This same person, I hear, has had a big falling out with MACE and Dr. Trotter and Norreese Haynes. I suspect that he is the one spewing so much negative stuff about MACE, Dr. John Trotter, and Norreese Haynes on the different blogs under many aliases, of course). I hope that this information is helpful.

No, as a former teacher, I can tell you that the main issue with teachers is not the money; it is the lack of support from the administrators in the area of discipline. Although I do not teach any longer, I still talk to many teachers, and they always complain that there is no discipline in the schools anymore. Over 25 years ago, I taught in a rural high school in Georgia, and this school had an informal “baby day.” I had two 9th graders whom I taught who were visibly pregnant, and I also had an 11th grader who was pregnant in my homeroom. This has been going on for years, but it is probably more prevalent today. The discipline today is totally out of control, especially in the more urban areas, but it is quickly spreading all over Georgia — and I expect the entire country. This is one of the reason that I respect MACE. MACE, unlike GAE and PAGE, is not afraid to address the discipline issue. I suspect had I taught more years, I would have switched from GAE to MACE.

By teach1

May 3, 2008 11:40 PM | Link to this

jim d,

Now come on be fair. Your link could be for any profession and arrest. See below: http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=Docter+arrested&FORM=MSNH

Every field has its problems. It hits hardest when it concernes our children but your search was NOT a fair means to qualify respect for teachers.

By Jr

May 3, 2008 11:47 PM | Link to this

Hey guess what I think that catlady and mom3nappyheaded boys is that Gunny Yawn the spider monkey looking guy from Dekalb County School System.Is he getting paid to blogg while he is working for childrens?and is he blogging on school time? lets send a e-mail to Sup.Crawford Lewis and ask him to send some one out to MLK High School an check his computers if he is found guilty he must be terminated ASAP. I will up load Crawford Lewis e-mail on my next post. Chow

By I am so tired of this fake.

May 3, 2008 11:49 PM | Link to this

I am tired of the fake postings by the same person. Yawn, yawn, yawn. I am going to bed.

I have to deal with real issues Monday morning…students who will not behave and they are no consequences for their misconduct.

By teach1

May 3, 2008 11:53 PM | Link to this

OK I am laughing at me first!

I misspelled doctor when I did the link, but you get my point. When you do a search like you did, you could put in any profession and arrest and come up with page after page of incidents. That is the way search engines work on the internet.

You can do better than that!

By Jr.

May 3, 2008 11:59 PM | Link to this

I like this I am having fun corn bread and black eye peas buttermilk and no tolits hard to dodo when there is no place to go hey Gunny Yawn guess who coming to dinner.

By jerry

May 4, 2008 12:00 AM | Link to this

I taught at Southwest DeKalb High school. Is this the same Gunny Yawn who taught at SWD?

By All Quiet On The Western Front....

May 4, 2008 12:27 AM | Link to this

Wehre has everybody gone to? I missed all of the dialog b/w CatLady and moms3boy. Where has you gone to? I going to make a Sweet Onion sanwich . Seems like all blogers are now sleeping or scared to pup forth there opinions. I am in a good mude fopr readng blogs tonite. I am fired up. The shcools need to make the kids to behave. This is what wrong wit our schools. Mom3nappy headed boys were on targit.

By Fake Inspector

May 4, 2008 12:50 AM | Link to this

I am the new Fake Inspectorof the AJC.Com blogs. Anyone who is posting under many different aliases will be identified by me, the Great American Fake Inspector. I will call you out. Trust the Fake Inspector. Wherever you are on these noble AJC.Com blogs, the super hero Fake Inspector will identify you and call you out. You can trust the true Fake Inspector. I take my many vitamins each morning, pray, and put the big “FI” on my chest and fly out the window. All you little weenies who like to take shots at others while you hide behind your computers using many fake names, beware that the Fake Inspector will always identify you in order to warn the public. And, all of you fake superintendents of schools (esp. in Georgia), realize now that the super hero Fake Inspector will call you out also. You want to make all the good money, but you do not want to make the students behave so that the teachers can teach. You are fakes when you sit by and let the children terrorize the teachers. The Fake Inspector may even report you to MACE so that you may end up on TheTeachersAdvocate.Com.

By Wally

May 4, 2008 1:23 AM | Link to this

I love that “jr.” poster. We want to hear more form him. Bring it on jr. your are a trip. tell it like it is my man. who is this gunny yawn>

By Fake Inspector

May 4, 2008 1:35 AM | Link to this

Jesse’s Girl, jim d, Pampano, HS Teacher, Mom3boys, catlady (and many others): all the same person. Same “fngerprints,” same “DNA.” Sick. Your friendly neighborhood super hero who has a life, Fake Inspector

By Jim w/ Big D

May 4, 2008 2:06 AM | Link to this

Shock and awe tonight, my friends. So many of our superintendents are fakes. Thanks, Fake Inspector for letting us know. Please stay on these AJC Blogs so that you can warn us about the many fakes.

By James Lyons Toombs

May 4, 2008 2:29 AM | Link to this

Fake Inspector: You have made a believer out of me tonight. I think that you are very serious about exposing corruption in public education and fake bloggers. Yes, Fake Inspector, I am now a believer, but you have showed so much patience. I took that patience as weakness. Now, I hear that Lion roaring. Please expose all of the educational fakes, OK? I now believe.

By jim d

May 4, 2008 4:51 AM | Link to this

mom3boys,

OMG, I’ve not LOL that hard in quite awhile.

13 year old girls will get knocked up as long as there are 14 year old boys. It has been that way since the beginning of time. This isn’t a new trend. It is just a fact of life, don’t blame parents—blame God.—“Go forth and multiply”(Gen. 24:2).

By mom3boys

May 4, 2008 7:54 AM | Link to this

JimD et al, I don’t blame God, I blame parents for not supervising the little darlings and for encouraging dating (thinking it’s cute) when they are entirely too young. I blame them for not teaching the little girls to say no, and that love is not = to sex. I blame them for buying slutty clothes and makeup when they are children. I blame them for not creating a loving family environment, which causes these kids to go out and seek love/attention elsewhere. And, I blame them for when all else fails, not purchasing a chastity belt! (ok, haha that’s a joke.). It really does break my heart, though…truly.

For the doofis that thinks one person is blogging as many: get real…who has time or inclination for that?

BTW..how do you contact the admin of this blog to suggest a new topic? What do you all think of your school’s late work policy? Can students turn in work late? How late? Is there a penalty? Should there be? Is it the school’s job to teach responsibility if the parents don’t? What about parents who think little Johnny should be able to turn work in weeks late?

By mom3boys

May 4, 2008 7:54 AM | Link to this

JimD et al, I don’t blame God, I blame parents for not supervising the little darlings and for encouraging dating (thinking it’s cute) when they are entirely too young. I blame them for not teaching the little girls to say no, and that love is not = to sex. I blame them for buying slutty clothes and makeup when they are children. I blame them for not creating a loving family environment, which causes these kids to go out and seek love/attention elsewhere. And, I blame them for when all else fails, not purchasing a chastity belt! (ok, haha that’s a joke.). It really does break my heart, though…truly.

For the doofis that thinks one person is blogging as many: get real…who has time or inclination for that?

BTW..how do you contact the admin of this blog to suggest a new topic? What do you all think of your school’s late work policy? Can students turn in work late? How late? Is there a penalty? Should there be? Is it the school’s job to teach responsibility if the parents don’t? What about parents who think little Johnny should be able to turn work in weeks late?

By Fake Inspector

May 4, 2008 9:10 AM | Link to this

**Gunny Yawn?

Gunny Yawn?

Gunny Yawn?

Gunny Yawn?**

By Larry

May 4, 2008 9:46 AM | Link to this

Authenic: Jason and new mom.

Fake: LKing, JustMe, and Blue Moon. Just my opinions.

I agree, Fake Inspector, I think so many of these “personalities” are the same person. They write exactly the same and with such rapid succession — in spurts, so to speak. It’s a very, very easy writing DNA to observe. So clumsy and so amateurish.

Moms3Boys (another fake name along with CatLady, et al.): Yes, that is a good question…who would have the time or inclination to morph into many, many, many “personalities” to unleash degrading comments about others? Is this a person who does not work or misses work quite a bit? Is this the type of person who undermines his own job (employer or school system if he is a teacher) and/or company? Fake Inspector, thanks for exposing all of the fake maneuverings on all of the websites. We need and appreciate your diligence. Expose all the fakes on all the websites (Clayton.Net, Teachers.Net, etc.)!

By Jr

May 4, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

Good morning Gunny Yawn from MLK High School of Dekalb County School System.I guess you should know that a e-mail was sent to Crawford Lewis Late last night, and I am afraid that he will began his investigation next week. Mr.Yawn pay close attention because this blogg that I have posted will self distruct in 10 minutes here is your Mission, if you should chose below is a list of things you can do to avoid Crawford from seeing the thing you wrote on this blogg while on your PreDekalb school computer(perhaps)While you was getting paid by the premuddy Dekalb School syStem. 1. Remove hard drive(not)2. remove history 3. Call Steve Holmes. Mr. Yawn the Most powerful thing that you should do if you chose, is CALL MACE MACE MACE MACE MACE MACE MACE MACE MACE…………………………………………………Now thats a Mission Impossiable- Chow for now

By Larry

May 4, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

jim d: Why were you blogging at 4:51 AM? Most people are sleeping at this time. Do you have a timer set for your blogs or just have problems sleeping? “…whatsoever a man soeth, that shall he also reap” (Galatians 6.7).

The thing that the DeKalb County School System’s administration has proposed in the budget is an insult to teachers because teachers are not getting a step raise, but the principals were going to get a raise. This is simply insulting to teachers because they already are shown so much disrespect (being treated rudely by students, parents, and teachers). Food and gas prices have gone up precipitously, and teachers pay the same thing for these commodities as do the administrators who have whopping salaries. I agree with what was written on a sign that one of the MACE picketers was holding at a recent budget hearing: “Hey, Crawford [Lewis], Give Up Your Own Money, Will Ya?”

By Wally

May 4, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

I love it! jr. is back! Go jr go!!!!!!!!!

By mom3boys

May 4, 2008 10:53 AM | Link to this

Fake Inspector: you are indeed fake. I have been mom3boys since I first posted any kind of blog or needed a password. I am sorry to let you down; you seem so proud of your investigative skills. I do not post under any other names. I belong to a few other blogs that are not AJC related and use the same name there. Yes, I am a teacher in the metro area. Yes, I love my job. Yes, I am frustrated with many things about my job. However, the things I love far outweigh the things I dislike. The best part of this year….hmmmm…that would have to be letting students know they passed the MGWE, when they were pretty sure they had failed it. Seeing my students grow in their writing abilities was amazing! BTW, My admin supports discipline, so whatever I send her gets taken care of. I like my school, I like my paycheck, I like my students (most of them, anyway). I really like that in a few short weeks I get a nice break (while I take hours and hours of professional development), and get to spend some time with the three boys that I love best of all (four, if you count the hubby, which I do). All kiddos were in different directions this weekend, so I had some extra time to goof around on the computer…sorry if you think I am one poster morphed into many…you are wrong. Mom3Boys

By Jr.

May 4, 2008 10:58 AM | Link to this

Now Gunny Yawn you have made me late for church. I must leave know before the Rev,Start preaching the topic for to day will be, How many N**** like Jermiah Wright. I was told today that Rev.Wright may be the guest speaker. If he is the guest speaker will the topic for today change to white america or will he talk about race. Gunny my pastor did not invite him the board of trustees did because the board is made up of a majority of Blacks yes Mr. Yawn my pastor is a white man that why I he is very upset because he was made to change his topic for today.So its ok for a black Preacher to talk about whites but my white pastor canot talk about black people to those people I say formy pastor Rev. White Keep on preching because the truth will set you free. Gunny did you think I was finnished with you Mrs. Ladie I dont Thank so hommy dont play that! When I return the topic will be what realy happen with the pincipal at MLK High School who fell in love with who. Chow for now

By BTW

May 4, 2008 11:02 AM | Link to this

I think you are that n”Gunny Yawn” fellow. Likely story that 3 kids and “hubby” were not at your house this week end. Yeah.

By BTW again.....

May 4, 2008 11:22 AM | Link to this

sorry about the “n typo”..

By mom3boys

May 4, 2008 3:00 PM | Link to this

You obviously do not have college students, teenagers, or boy scouts in your family or you would not question kids and hubby being gone in different directions. I do not have little kiddies, as you assume. Don’t ever assume…you know what that does.

By Booker

May 4, 2008 3:45 PM | Link to this

Gunny Yawn >>>>>>> Mom3Boys? Yes, those kids can really keep you busy. With hubby and kids gone for the weekend, you finally had time to blog. Be blessed. Boo! You are caught again by the Fake Inspector! What is sad, Mommie, is that you actually think that you are smarter than everyone and that people are believing your constant lies. Never did for one moment. Never will. The “Fake Inspector will always catch you, especially when you morph from Mommie and go to the nasty and degrading postings. When you sow bad seed, it returns. Ask Creflo and Eddie.

By jim d

May 4, 2008 4:15 PM | Link to this

Laura,

Finally this thread has meaningful discussions - albeit lively ones. You are doing a swell job. Be well, jim d

By Big Reuben

May 4, 2008 4:31 PM | Link to this

Theere are two ole statments by Pappy taugth me….dont srart wahat u cant finish. 2> dont try too play with da big boys…if u cant hang wit them. Mom u bettr get u boys involvd. Mommmie u gettng exposed. Gochca!!!!!!!

By marc

May 4, 2008 4:50 PM | Link to this

I usually read the Clayton.Talk board most of the times, but someone told me that is was heating up like a “rap battle” on GetSchool.Com. Although I will continue to visit Kimberly’s board (especially since she too is from the City and went to Fordham like I did), I will be visiting here also. It looks like it might be heating up. Isn’t this “gunny yawn” Trotter’s nemesis? I remember when he was featured prominently on the MACE website, but not as much anymore. But, his photos are still on there; I guess as a matter of history. I even see Eldrin Bell at one of the MACE parties, and I know that Trotter says that Eldrin Bell is incompetent. If MACE really did picket that many times for Yawn and represent Yawn on so many occasions, I guess that he will now be going to the GAE group or the PAGE group for help now. This will be fun. I think he is the one whom Trotter calls “Talented Teacher.” They must have had a big falling out, heh? I don’t think that Dr. Trotter liked it when Yawn (posing, I suppose as that “BABY”) anonymously called Haynes “Sped” (short for Special Ed since Haynes was identified as “Behavioral Disorder” when he was young because of his temper) on the Clayton News Daily blog. I know one thing about Trotter…he won’t let his friends down. I saw him stick by Haynes’s side during the entire spectacle which Eldrin Bell and Ericka Davis caused about the false allegations that Haynes did not live in his district. The Secretary of State’s Office handed down an Official Decision which stated that they found no substantive evidence that Haynes ever left his district. Yes, Laura, I am beginning to like this board.

By jr. s' bro....

May 4, 2008 5:26 PM | Link to this

my bro. seems to be mad…..hy you sonof a gunny are we having funyet….Yes, Jr.’s Brother (by the way, is that your formal name?), we are having a blast — mainly because we can not only dish it out but also take one or two hits on the chin. No glass chin or jaw here. O que faz, minha amigo, Gunny? Como senti agora voce? Tchau.

By jr. s' bro.....>>again.

May 4, 2008 5:38 PM | Link to this

Hey my udder personalty (with propper English): Wouldnt tht be “meu amigo” and “minha amiga”? Yes, Jr.’s Brother, you are absolutely correct. Desculpa. Tudo bem! Kelsey Frazier. Gunny Yawn.

By Lee

May 4, 2008 6:05 PM | Link to this

:::Sigh:::

Hopefully, the ten year olds will be back in school Monday and this blog will be worth reading again.

By mom3boys

May 4, 2008 6:58 PM | Link to this

Hubby and boy #3 are back from camping and have brought me a mountain of laundry. Son #2 should be back from girlfriend’s house any minute. It’s our last dinner w/ just four of us for a while because son #1 comes home from UGA tomorrow. Do you really think I could make this stuff up?? Don’t answer; I’m not interested in reading your response. I gotta go and get dinner cooked and a test made so all my duties are done before my show comes on later. Since I have no way to prove to you I am just mom3boys and no one else, I will give up trying. As I’ve learned teaching: some people just refuse to learn. Caio, MOM3BOYS (and 1 hubby and 1 dog)

By Jesse's Girl

May 4, 2008 9:41 PM | Link to this

Mom3boys….do you seriously care what this yahoo thinks? I certainly do not.

By Fake Inspector

May 4, 2008 11:45 PM | Link to this

Yes, Mommie, you and your many alternative personalities are quite good at making up a lot of things. And, for entertainment purposes, this is not all bad. You and your other personalities (jim d, catlady, et al.) actually say some pretty insightful things about teaching and teachers in the schooling process. But, as the official Inspector of Fake on these blogs, I must tell you that when you get so vicious, nasty, and libelous when you personally attack people (mostly on other threads) and say the most untruthful things about them just to hurt them, then I must inform you that you will be called out.

Now, you must become a liberwated woman and tell your “hubby” that he needs to help you prepare the meals for your three boys. Say, why is the eldest of the three returning from UGA tomorrow — on Mondays of all days? Where are the other personalities today? Catlady must have taken the day off.

I must get to bed now. Even the official Inspector of Fake must get his proper rest. I will wake up, eat a hearty breakfast, pray to God, take my vitamins, put the FI on my chest, and fly out the window. Someone has to expose the fake on these blogs.

By mom3boys

May 5, 2008 6:50 AM | Link to this

FI: thank you for the compliments, left handed as they may be (I’m a lefty, so that’s ok…so is son #3 and hubby). Typically college students pack up and leave after their last final…so that is what son will do. Perhaps, as he needs a summer job, he can join you in your crime fighting pursuits…he does enjoy mindless diversions. Jesse’s girl: you are right, I do not care what this guy thinks…he’s obviously not in touch w/ reality..but that’s ok; few are these days. Off to make the world a better place, one middle school student at a time…. Mom

By ma976zda

May 5, 2008 6:57 AM | Link to this

c708t

By ma835zda

May 5, 2008 7:19 AM | Link to this

c724t

By motimbo

January 28, 2009 3:15 PM | Link to this

guuny yawn