Get Schooled

By V for Vendetta

April 28, 2008 9:14 AM | Link to this

If the old system is to stay in place, I think a panel of local parents and teachers should approve the decision.

Of course, that will never happen, because no teacher is going to single himself or herself out individually in front of a school board for fear of their job. And that’s precisely why we have these problems—parents don’t get a say, and teachers’ careers would be on the line.

Pathetic.

By AJ

April 28, 2008 9:48 AM | Link to this

Exactly! Up here in good old Hall County the school supt. picks and chooses who he wants. There is some pretence made in the higher income schools of letting the parents have some input (those selected to do so mind you) but by and large it is the supt and the board who pick the principals and assistant principals. This is especially true for the low income, primarily hispanic schools. When anyone on staff mentions it they are either harrassed, nonrenewed the next year or otherwise blacklisted. Some people who have actually dared to criticize the practice in the past have been basically run off. The latest round saw two new principals hired, granted a 10 thousand dollar moving allowance and then their spouses were both placed in assistant principal positions ahead of people who had been training for years for the positions. This is one of the primary problems with education in this state!

By Steve

April 28, 2008 9:53 AM | Link to this

The question you are asking is flawed. Clayton County public did have a say in the selection of their new school leader. They elected and are represented by school board members. The School board is not a board of school employees. These are members of the public who were elected. The question that should be asked is “Can Clayton County elect the right folks to lead the school system?” This tragic tale is illustrative of the reason it is so important to choose your representatives wisely.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 9:54 AM | Link to this

Here’s a fleeting thought.

Georgia law says that the board’s legal functions include:

Hiring and evaluating the superintendent.

Please note that nowhere does it state the local BOE may not select several potential candidates and let voters decide.

By Ernest

April 28, 2008 9:57 AM | Link to this

Correct me if I’m wrong but I thought the ONLY employee of the school board is the superintendent. Since citizens elect their board reps, they have a voice of who the superintendent should be through that person. Ideally, board reps should provide opportunities for ‘public input’ with regards to prospective superintendent candidates but at the end of the day, it should be the board members who hire this person.
Citizens have a way of expressing their displeasure every four years when their board representative seat is up.

Citizens do have input for their principals through their respective school councils. Some councils are stronger than others hence some schools have greater say in who the selected candidate will be.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 10:07 AM | Link to this

actually Ernest,

according to Ga. statute, the BOE responsibilities also include:

Hiring and assigning all employees upon the recommendation of the superintendent

By Camille

April 28, 2008 10:14 AM | Link to this

As mentioned previously, the situation in Clayton County is somewhat different. Yes, it is the responsibility of the school board to select candidates for and elect the superintendent. However, given this particular situation where the board was advised by various groups that this person was not suitable for the position, the board should have heeded that advice. What I would have expected to happen was that the board would have allowed the public to voice their opinions regarding the candidates prior to someone being selected. Now, whether or not they wanted to take that into consideration would have been their choice, but at least the public would have had a chance to voice their opinion. None of that happened. It will definitely be interesting to see the outcome.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this

Return to yester-year.

Elected Supers ruled pre-1993 in Georgia.

What has the past 15 years produced other than self serving ego, maniacal little Napolean complexed supers.?

Anyone from Gwinnett care to comment?

By jim d

April 28, 2008 10:20 AM | Link to this

Camille,

Hmmm, a none binding referendum? Interesting concept, one that would have set voters on a definite track for the next election cycle.

I like it!

By Ernest

April 28, 2008 10:31 AM | Link to this

JimD, thanks for the correction! BTW, keep us informed with regards to your ‘countdown’ to becoming an ‘empty nester’ :)

By AJ

April 28, 2008 10:35 AM | Link to this

jim d - Can’t speak for Gwinnett folks but you described our Hall County super to a T! The running joke is he want’s to be Alvin when he grows up….

By high school teacher

April 28, 2008 10:40 AM | Link to this

I recently read an opinion from a high school principal with regard to elected supes, and he raised a valid point: if the public elects the superintendent, more than likely they will elect someone who has good campaign skills, not necessarily someone who knows what is best for education. We don’t need any more politicians in education; they have screwed us up enough already.

I see both sides of the issue. I would like to have a say in who is superintendent. However, I feel that the local boards should be trusted enough to fill this position. If you want them to name a certain person, then lobby the board as you would your state representatives.

As for principals, I really think that the public should not have a vote in that. There are so many issues to consider when hiring administrative personnel (and sometimes they don’t involve the sports programs!), that the supe and the board members must consider. If you don’t like the decisions that the local board makes, then replace the board members - for whom you do vote.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 10:42 AM | Link to this

17 school days not counting today, of course a few of those really are only 1/2 days, Thats actually till graduation—-he won’t fly till 6/1

Hey, but who’s counting?

By V for Vendetta

April 28, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

LOL JimD.

I think your comments apply to quite a few people! :-)

By jim d

April 28, 2008 10:51 AM | Link to this

HST,

The thing is a a major role in a supers job is to be a politican.

He must politic with state and local officials. Where he gets off light is not having to please the people he has been hired to represent. In my opinon, that is where things have gotten scewed. He has no obligation to the public. Nor is there any REAL ACCOUNTABILLITY to local shareholders in education (parents)

By HS Teacher Too

April 28, 2008 10:56 AM | Link to this

Why can’t the schools follow more of a corporate model? Don’t boards of directors hire the CEO and other executives? Rightnow, the public elects the boards, and we are forced to trust the boards will appropriately use their power and judgment to select an appropriate superintendent. (And, perhaps more importantly, to see clearly when it is time for new leadership.) In Gwinnett, of course, we see where that has gotten us. The GCPS board may as well be Disney, afraid to oust Eisner. At least in the business world, the shareholders can bring suit against the board for breach of their duty. What can we do? Almost nothing, except elect different board members when their terms expire and hope that they do the right thing.

Now, if taxpayers could bring suit against the board for breach of their duties, that might be something! Jim d, you seem to know this better than anyone — is that even possible?

By Dex

April 28, 2008 11:10 AM | Link to this

I say let Al and Jesse select the Super..where are they anyway?..they show up when they thought a stripper got raped in N.C….where are they when 50,000 Clayton County students are about to be raped by the school board?

By jim d

April 28, 2008 11:18 AM | Link to this

HST,

In the corporate world it is about profits. While this is somewhat true of the public sector, it is more about gaining funding than it is about spending. Public funding in the minds of these folks is unlimited. They are more interested in getting more of it than they are about what they actually will do with it.

Now that we are off on government and how it works let me make the following statement.

Citizens are not represented according to their convictions about what government ought to be and do. Rather citizens are represented on the basis of the district in which they live, where a majority winner represents everyone, including those who voted against him or her. This winner-take-all, single-member-district system of representation is seriously flawed.

This system makes it impossible for minority viewpoints (even 25 or 30 percent of the population) to gain representation. And often those people simply quit voting and become cynical as they realize that they are required to submit to government without representation.

What we need instead is a system of proportional representation, beginning in Locqal, State and Federal government. In a PR system, nothing keeps a popular party from winning a large majority, but minority opinons are also free to gain representation. Elected seats would be allocated to different parties in proportion to the number of votes recieved.

I believe this system would encourage more citizens to participate in elections by overcoming their sense of alienation and feeling they have no representation.

Proportional representation may not be the cure all, but it certainly would be a step in the right direction.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 11:23 AM | Link to this

Too,

From what I understand an elected official that fails to fulfill their duties may be recalled. But to my knowledge one has never been sued for this.

By Lee

April 28, 2008 11:57 AM | Link to this

Okay Mr. Fox, here is the henhouse. I’d like you to guard it while I’m gone….

Clayton has just given a signed, blank check to a snake oil salesman. Gonna be interesting to see how this turns out….

A few of the lowlights of this deal:

• $300k salary plus $24k housing allowance plus $28k annuity.

• The ability to hire consultants and create a new senior administrative staff position. No budget limitations are stated.

• Make changes without approval of the board, despite any policies that may be in place.

• Receive security “in the event of a public controversy” or any reason he feels fit.

• A district car for business and personal use.

• Thirty paid vacation days and two paid days a month to do consulting work outside the district. That’s in addition to the regular vacation and sick time school employees receive.

• The ability to work elsewhere.

Just damn. That’s the nicest thing I can say. I don’t know if a school board can be sued for breach of fiduciary responsibility, but I would argue we have Exhibit A if anyone wants to give it a shot.

Personally, I don’t see anything wrong with our current system of elected school boards and appointed superintendents - provided, of course, that the voters don’t elect imbeciles, which seems to be the case in Clayton.

By Pierce Randall

April 28, 2008 12:14 PM | Link to this

The Clayton County School Board is making a bad decision now, but the public could well make bad decisions in the future regard educational professionals. The actual task of administering schools and classrooms should be a de-politicized, non-partisan process. Look at the problem facing New York City’s first Arab language school: An overly-politicized process involving the creation of an Arabic language academy in Brooklyn (along with significant goading from a group called Stop the Madrassa and the New York Post) has ousted a qualified education professional for largely spurrious, anti-Arab reactionary fears. More public involvement probably wouldn’t help that situation. In fact, going on how the New York Times reported the events this morning, they probably should have taken a stronger stand defending the integrity of their principal. In education as in many fields, disputes like religious or political viewpoints or lifestyle of prospective administrators and teachers get the public involved vocally, not the academic or administrative credentials of the candidates being selected.

That said, the public should be more involved in school board activities. I admit to be ignorant of what degree that takes place in Clayton County. I agree with an above comment that more effort should be taken to illicit public response before a superintendent is elected, not after. I would go as far as to suggest that the state make a public involvement process mandatory, similiar to what public authorities have to go through in assessing environmental risk and public preference. In general, Clayton seems to have a poorly-functioning school board now, and unfortunately for the county’s citizens, that’s not going to help them retain accreditation.

By high school teacher

April 28, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

jimd, your synopsis sounds exaclty like what happens when voters select their representatives for Congress :).

And education is NOT the corporate world. If you want corporate education, allow choice on both sides - let parents select their schools, and let schools decide which kids can get in and which ones can’t.

I also realize that we two have very different experiences with public schools. I went to a fairly small public school system, and I have taught in two fairly small school systems - nothing like the Gwinnett dynasty. I can certainly understand your frustration as well the feeling that all citizens are not adequately represented.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 12:25 PM | Link to this

*allow choice on both sides *

AMEN!!

By Attn: Clayton Parents

April 28, 2008 12:41 PM | Link to this

There’s blatantly illegal and then there’s BLATANTLY STUPID. With this hire, the board has accomplished both. Norreese Haynes was the one voice who consistently opposed the way this board operates. He tried to warn you, but nooooooo you decided to cheer when he was illegally removed from office.

So now you get to pay…through the nose….for an unlimited budget.

Are you happy yet?

By Optimistic

April 28, 2008 12:59 PM | Link to this

I think Cathy Truett, Mark Elgart, Bostic, Bryant the AJC and the Chamber of Commerce should pick the Superintendent; not the people that voted the board in office. The 53, 000 Black kids parents should be“disenfranchised” Clayton County is not located in America, but is a “Third World Country” like the ones this country always manipulate.

By HS Teacher Too

April 28, 2008 1:00 PM | Link to this

jim d, thanks for your responses to my question and comments. You said though, that in the corporate world it is about profits and in the public sector it is about gaining funding. I’m wondering why that really matters. In the corporate world, the board’s responsibility is to the shareholders. Can’t we make an analogous argument that the school board’s responsibility is to its district’s constituents? I’m just playing with ideas here, and they may be nonsense. But I would love to see a suit brought against a school board for breach of their duties with regard to spending, or keeping a superintendent on too long, etc. (Potential immunities notwitstanding, of course. This is, after all, just a dream!)

By Ombudsman

April 28, 2008 1:06 PM | Link to this

I think Cathy Truett, Mark Elgart, Bostic, Bryant, the AJC and the Chamber of Commerce should pick the Superintendent; not the people that voted the board in office. The 53, 000 Black kids parents should be“disenfranchised” Clayton County is not located in America, but is a “Third World Country” like the ones this country always manipulate.

By Smart Man

April 28, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

Pierce Randall, the only reason you think the decision was bad is because the Media told you it was. Remember, the Media told you President Bush was the best decision!!!

By jim d

April 28, 2008 1:14 PM | Link to this

HS too,

Private money vs. public money is what I percieve the difference.

does that make sense?

Investors always have the option of moving their money away from a corporate entity, we do not enjoy that priviledge when dealing with government. The more they screw up the more we pay.

By HS Teacher Too

April 28, 2008 1:26 PM | Link to this

jim d: makes sense. But then wouldn’t it follow that exactly because the public can’t move its money away, the board should be held to an even higher standard? Thus, a lawsuit for breach of their duties to their district’s constituents would be all the more appropriate?

By The Bell Tolls

April 28, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

The fools on the CC BOE don’t need to be in charge of anything. They need to step down every stinking one of them. As for this new interim Super…he smells like more of the same old crap. More trouble. Since when does a Super in CC need $300k and body guards - good God where does the idiocy end?

The State should appoint a new Super and with the help of the State BOE, citizens of the County replace every single member of the Board over the summer. Those who don’t step down willingly are subject to a lawsuit for breach of duty.

If, and only if, the County manages not to lose accreditation then hold an election to replace the Super with a County elected official.

By The Bell Tolls

April 28, 2008 1:54 PM | Link to this

The fools on the CC BOE don’t need to be in charge of anything. They need to step down every stinking one of them. As for this new interim Super…he smells like more of the same old crap. More trouble. Since when does a Super in CC need $300k and body guards - good God where does the idiocy end?

The State should appoint a new Super and with the help of the State BOE, citizens of the County replace every single member of the Board over the summer. Those who don’t step down willingly are subject to a lawsuit for breach of duty.

If, and only if, the County manages not to lose accreditation then hold an election to replace the Super with a County elected official.

By catlady

April 28, 2008 1:57 PM | Link to this

“illicit”

Seems like we have enough of that already in Georgia (see problems at the DOT). Think you mean “elicit”.

I am concerned about the unasked question: should SACS and Mr. Elgart be pontificating on who is and is not suitable for superintendent? IF ASKED, perhaps they should. They could certainly share a list of helpful qualifications, but to comment on individual candidates, even those extremely unfit, seems to be very intrusive. I don’t think that is the role of an accrediting agency.

Clayton’s BOE KNOWS what is should do. It just seems completely UNWILLING to do so. Therefore, let the (cow) chips fall where they may! I do think the taxpayers should be able to hold the BOE personally and individually responsible for the cost of their choice. I can see this being another very expensive failure for CCS.

Regarding principals: the sooner you accept the GOB system (Good Old Boys), the better. The people perceived as most able to keep the parents off the superintendent’s back are usually chosen, especially if they have ties to the Central Office personnel, or they seem to be especially enthusiastic “yes-men and -women”. Our principal would do ANYTHING she is told to do, without thinking even a bit. Too bad she never was in the armed forces.

In my experience, when teachers are asked for input it is routinely ignored.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 2:13 PM | Link to this

Indeed it would stand to reason. But then when has government ever demonstrated reason?

By jim d

April 28, 2008 2:21 PM | Link to this

Cat,

I agree that y’all are summarily dismissed by admin. in almost every instance. Perhpas that may be why so often the public holds teachers in such low esteem. Or maybe its just the “summer off” thing. :-)

By JustMe

April 28, 2008 3:32 PM | Link to this

IMHO, the BOE should be the ones to select the super. It should not be a beauty contest, but be the most qualified person available.

The public votes for the BOE members, so in that regard they do have input to the super selection. If the voters have concerns, they should ask the people running for BOE about super qualifications before they vote for the BOE member(s).

jim d I just found out that teachers in GA are allowed to join real unions. The GA State law simply states that teachers cannot be forced to join a union. Based on this information, IMHO, we should try to get all teachers to join AFT. This is a strong teacher union that fights first and foremost for students education and then for teachers. It is a strong union in many northeastern and midwestern states. If enough GA teachers join, then they would have enough of a presence in GA to make a different. However, currently, very very few teachers in GA are members. IMHO, this would be a major step in fixing education in GA. Every parent should ask for their child’s teacher to join AFT.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 3:42 PM | Link to this

WOW JM,

“teachers in GA are allowed to join real unions. The GA State law simply states that teachers cannot be forced to join a union.”

Now where do you suppose I’ve heard that before? OH Yeah, something about Ga. being a right to work state rings a bell.

Glad to know you finally got it!

By jim d

April 28, 2008 3:46 PM | Link to this

School systems don’t and won’t recognize the organizations nor will they enter into contract negotians with them. Also if y’all stay out of work, you have violated the letter of the law in Georgia.

But hey, it is a start! Go for it!

By Pompano

April 28, 2008 3:59 PM | Link to this

We’d be more than happy to ship Alvin from Gwinnett down to CC. Sounds like pompous Alvin would fit right in down there.

However, when the Search firm presented the 3 candidates to the CC School Board, they only scheduled two interviews and refused to even interview the lone white candidate. Why isn’t the good old race baiting AJC putting some ink to that story? They turn every other new even into a racial issue.

By catlady

April 28, 2008 4:11 PM | Link to this

jim d@2:21:

I hiss in your general direction! Mrowr! LOL (through tears of truth)

By JustMe

April 28, 2008 4:19 PM | Link to this

jim d - Aren’t you the one advocating CHOICE? Aren’t you the one that always says that teachers deserve the treatment we get because we don’t stick up for ourselves? Why, then, are your last 2 posts like that? I would have thought that you would jump on this and advocate for all teachers to join AFT.

Iowa is also a right to work State. However, almost every teacher there is a member of AFT voluntarily - and Iowa has no other choice than to work with them. And, because of this Iowa’s education (public and private) has improved.

Why can’t GA follow Iowa’s lead?

By jim d

April 28, 2008 4:43 PM | Link to this

JM,

I’m truly proud that you have taken some inniative. But like I’ve said time and again “it is up to y’all.”

Keep up the good work, YOU may be the catalyst needed to improve not only your working conditions but those of every teacher in Georgia.

I really do wish you the best of luck now convincing other teachers what it has taken me a year to get thru to you.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 4:46 PM | Link to this

Pmpi,

Ship him hell! I’d personally chauffer him!

By Pompano

April 28, 2008 4:48 PM | Link to this

Look what the Unions did for the American Auto Industry. They’ve now done the same for our Educational System - an Inferior product that is grossly over-priced.

Teacher’s unions are part of the problem - not the solution

By Attn: Clayton Parents

April 28, 2008 4:55 PM | Link to this

Here’s a novel concept. If a board does select a superintendent, FOLLOW THE LAW during the hiring process!

In ClayCo, only the Chairman of the BOE or the Superintendent can call for a board meeting. The meeting to hire Thompson was called by the vice-chairman, a CLEAR violation of law.

Thus the question that needs to be asked, (and answered) quickly is can Thompson have a legally valid contract if it was agreed upon in a meeting the board was not legally allowed to hold?

By Pompano

April 28, 2008 5:04 PM | Link to this

I’ll chip in for gas money Jim d

Of course King Alvin will likely expect a horse drawn carriage and police escort.

If Alvin were in the private sector, he’d be a mediocre mid-level manager. The compensation we throw at non-teaching positions is a joke.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 5:10 PM | Link to this

pompi,

Detroit wasn’t killed by the UAW alone, they had a lot of help with SUVs, gas prices and foreign competition in putting the brakes on the American dream.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 5:16 PM | Link to this

Yeah pompi,

he hasn’t done bad for a shop teacher from dekalb. Oh, and Alvin wouldn’t be riding in a horse and carrige, he likes speed too much. You should see him with a HEMI.

By jim d

April 28, 2008 5:25 PM | Link to this

Pompi,

A joke? I’m not laughing.

J.Alvins salary?

$306,904.73 + $3,737.92 travel.

By JustMe

April 28, 2008 5:48 PM | Link to this

Pompano - All unions are not bad. If you look at history, unions are only able to take hold whenever the ‘powers that be’ are abusive and/or don’t do the right thing. And, that is exactly what is happening in GA education today (public and private). These ‘powers’ don’t care about the students and certainly don’t care about the teachers. They give lip service to the public all the while squeezing every drop of incentive, money, supplies, motivation, and so on from inside of the classroom (which is what is supposed to matter the most).

DeKalb County is currently ‘informing’ the teachers that our step increase in pay will not happen next year. Oh, but by the way, Principals will get a 33% increase (from 2$ per student to 3$ per student) in pay. And, these are mostly (not all) pi$$ poor Principals that don’t protect teachers from crazy parent attacks and allow fights go on inside of the school but hide it from police and the media. These are the same Principals that are leading schools that don’t make AYP - so the schools are bad from every angle!

But, regardless of how bad those very Principals are, somehow the general public (and media) always points the finger at teachers - it is the teacher’s fault.

If you don’t like unions, what other course of action is there for workers (ie: teachers)? The only other one I see is what jim d suggested - get out of GA or get out of education. Either of these options will not help the students (in public school or in private school).

By Tony

April 28, 2008 7:11 PM | Link to this

The original question about input from the public for selection of principals is interesting. It seems the only time we hear how bad of a job we are doing is when Johnny has been in trouble and the parent is going to the board over the punishment. Too much homework also makes the complaint list especially when the skills required interfere with sports. Athletic boosters have more clout than school councils in many schools. So, who should have the say? What about teachers having input? Maybe they want a highly qualified instructional leader that will stand for high student achievement and carry high standards to a new level.

By jim d

April 29, 2008 7:00 AM | Link to this

tony,

“the only time we hear how bad of a job we are doing is when Johnny has been in trouble “

Do you think it may be because people generally feel helpless when dealing with the Bureaucracy? Only willing to go to the mat when they must?

By WFC

April 29, 2008 8:39 AM | Link to this

The whole “school board” system of governance is archaic. The Board in a big system such as Fulton is a full time job and should be paid as such. Otherwise you get board members with wealthy husbands, very little education experience who are using the position as a stepping stone to higher political office. Thank goodness my son graduates next year! BTW… principals should be required to have ten years of academic classroom experience so that they’ll realize WTF they are in charge of.

By flcertifiedteacher

May 1, 2008 1:08 PM | Link to this

Regarding the “tragic and depressing” situation in Clayton —-

Be upbeat! Laugh about it! Our school district here is in total chaos over the same exact issue. And, I created a parody blog about it.

My parody blog was recently featured on the GRADEBOOK education blog of the St Petersburg Times here:

http://blogs.tampabay.com/schools/2008/04/something-to-la.html

Laugh it up!