Get Schooled

By JustMe

April 22, 2008 8:28 AM | Link to this

Yes, this does happen. Some people (jd comes to mind) believe that teaching is an ‘easy’ job with short hours and summers “off.” They do not realize that the job is very much 24/7.

It tickles me when I see a parent or student in public (at a Braves game or where ever) and they ask me about their grade - as if I memorize all student grades for every assignment since the beginning of the year. I simply look at them and ask them to make an appointment with me after school.

By V for Vendetta

April 22, 2008 9:00 AM | Link to this

For some, this could be the worst part of the job. I won’t say that it’s the worst aspect of the job, but I will say that it’s a very good reason why I live nowhere near the school I teach at!

Most of these casual run-ins (one would not be remiss to refer to them as “confrontations) are somewhat benign and friendly, but the other side of the coin is much darker. The teacher Laura mentioned was immediately inundated with accusatory questions regarding the student’s performance in the classroom.

Some will say that if a businessman can play golf or have a few drinks outside of work with his colleagues, and conduct business, then why can’t a teacher do the same? I would argue that the business is very different, and that most of the time a business man doesn’t need an administrator or dept. chair present to make sure things don’t turn nasty real fast. I’m sure someone would say that if a teacher has done nothing wrong then a teacher has nothing to hide. Such a comment would be both ignorant and completely untrue.

The bottom line is this: yes, these conversations should only take place in the classroom. We live in a day and age where it is not safe for the teacher otherwise. For those of you who would argue that you would never treat a teacher that way, I applaud you. You are the exceptions to the rule.

By Jeff

April 22, 2008 9:09 AM | Link to this

As JM said, it is FAR more common than most might think.

And it really varies as to how I handle it.

If the parent is a pain in the tail (either right then or in general), I generally tell them to contact me at school and walk away. If they continue, I press the point of I am not talking about this right now, that I am off the clock and do not appreciate this interruption to my leisure time. I have been known to call the cops on parents who did not get the point via any other method.

HOWEVER, if the parent is generally decent, I’ll stand there and talk to them for a few minutes. I won’t be able to tell them grades unless I happen to remember it (and my memory for things such as that is LEGENDARY for its forgetfulness!), but I will be able to discuss behavior, what we’ve recently done in class, what is upcoming, things of that nature.

As long as the parent doesn’t continue to harass me once the conversation is over, I have been known to stand in the grocery store for 30 minutes talking to them. I simply ask that they respect my wishes when I tell them I’ve got to go.

Flip side: Friends and I are out drinking. Many parents would FLIP OUT if they saw a teacher drinking. I simply tell them “I’m an adult of legal age, and I am not on the clock. What I do outside of the school is none of your business.” And leave it at that. Again, if they press the issue, bad things happen, and I have been known to initiate (anonymously) DFACS proceedings on them. (Cops in such a situation is bad for both of us, and I’d probably wind up in as much trouble as the parent, particularly if it is rather late in the evening….)

By Jeff

April 22, 2008 9:12 AM | Link to this

V:

We’re agreeing again…. that hasn’t been happening much lately!

SMILE! :P

By V for Vendetta

April 22, 2008 9:15 AM | Link to this

Jeff,

Good point about the drinking. It’s an issue that no other job I can think of has to deal with. It’s a shame many people can’t separate a teacher’s leisure time with his or her professional time. Sometimes I think people really do expect us to do nothing but school related activities at all hours of the day, and are quick to judge us if we don’t live up to their lofty expectations.

By WFC

April 22, 2008 9:21 AM | Link to this

This happens all the time if the teacher lives in the district where he/she teaches. Sometimes OK, SOMETIMES NOT COOL AT ALL.

By Ernest

April 22, 2008 9:38 AM | Link to this

I don’t think it is acceptable to talk about ‘specifics’ outside of the school. General questions or seeking clarification is OK to a certain point. Unfortunately, they are some parents that perceive teachers are always ‘on duty’ and use these opportunities for private conferences.

Personally, I limit these types of encounters to thanking them for the job done thus far (especially if it warrants it) and wishing them well on their day off. I’d want the same from my ‘customers’ during my off time. Of course there are exceptions (perhaps running into a parent that has never attended a conference). Proper judgment should dictate how to proceed.

By mmm

April 22, 2008 10:02 AM | Link to this

I think Ernest is correct that encounters outside of school should general be non-specific plessentries.

Many of us, myself included, have been guilty of giving in to the temptation to conduct business. And I think that depends upon your relationship with the teacher and being aware of the signals sent as to whether specific conversation is ok.

My funniest story was that last fall I was walking around downtown Decatur and ran into a bunch of folks from my school who were standing on a street corners protesting the military crackdown in Burma (holding up signs asking folks to honk in solidarity.) My daughter wanted to hang out with them—so she helped one of her class mates on one corner, and I stood around talking to folks on another. My daughter’s teacher was there. It was parent-teacher conference season, so by mutual consent after we had covered all the other social topics, we spent 5 minutes trading views on how she was doing. We decided she needed more challenging spelling work—-and then agreed that this was all we needed to cover and so she could check my daughter’s formal PT conference off her to-do list.

By SSteacher

April 22, 2008 10:11 AM | Link to this

I simply tell the parent(s) that I’m not working now and if they have any questions to please call the school during my planning hours. The few times that a parent has complained to the principle about my “attitude” I simply state again what I told the parents. Jeff I notice that you have a lot of advice; how long have you been teaching? This is my third year and my attitude is if they (parents, board, administrators ect) feel that I am not doing my job they can hire someone else.

By Tony

April 22, 2008 10:16 AM | Link to this

It is one thing to have a casual conversation with someone you run into, but it is entirely another issue for a parent to expect a full-blown conference right there on the spot. This expectation is completely uncalled for.

Let’s compare. Would you expect your doctor to review the results of your last bloodwork if you should happen to bump into him/her while shopping? Would you expect your lawyer to review the fine print of your will under similar circumstances? These situations are comparable to the story told by Laura. The right place for these discussions is at the school with the information in the hands of the teacher.

Jeff is right about parents who quickly judge teachers for things they do in public. I have received a number of “anonymous” complaints about teachers/staff who go out on Friday nights. Apparently one drink makes a person a “drunk” according to some people. I let my wife make the purchases on “Aisle 19” when she does the shopping just to avoid any unnecessary accusations.

Parents: Please visit your child’s teacher at the school when you have questions regarding performance or behavior. Casual conversations about these matters is unprofessional and you should not put the teachers on the spot. These issues can be sensitive and should be handled with utmost care.

By Jeff

April 22, 2008 10:22 AM | Link to this

SSteacher:

What level do you want? I’ve been in and out of the classroom at various times for SEVERAL years, including one year as a full-fledged teacher with my name on the door (and I still have my certification through 2011).

But I have one strength that most teachers here do not: I don’t have to fear for my job. I walked out of the classroom 15 months ago and could not be happier. (Well, I could, but T and I are working on that! :P)

By Stacey

April 22, 2008 10:26 AM | Link to this

I’ve run into my son’s teachers in the grocery store or somewhere like that but I have always been mindful to respect their time and space. I usually offer a simple “Good evening” and keep moving unless they say more to me. At 7, my son is still in awe of the fact that teachers shop at Wal-Mart just like “regular people”. :-)

By Jeff

April 22, 2008 10:29 AM | Link to this

SSteacher:

I was in the classroom with my name on the door for one year before I left it for programming. HOWEVER, I’ve worked in education at some level for the better part of the past DECADE. (Including VAST experience as an official tutor - one who worked closely with the teachers teaching the subject tutored - quite a bit of experience as an unofficial but officially sanctioned tutor - the principal was my mentor and he knew how good I was in math, so he brought me in to tutor various kids while the teacher worked with others - and even some experience as a wilderness education program counselor.)

The main difference between me and most teachers is that I didn’t play the politically correct game. I called a spade a spade and if they didn’t like it, they could change, because I wasn’t.

By Jeff

April 22, 2008 10:32 AM | Link to this

Sorry y’all, didn’t think that 10:22 had gone through. Laura, can you delete the second one? Thanks!

By mmm

April 22, 2008 10:44 AM | Link to this

Tony, you are right.

The only reason my daughter’s teacher and I did her “conference” on the street corner is because we had been having problems finding a mutually convient time at school for a formal one. Neither of us felt the need to actually have one, because I am up at the school a lot, and she and I had always given each other 30 second reports whenever she saw me and felt there was anything to report on. So we did another two minutes and agreed to back up each other if the paperwork police wanted documentation.

By teach1

April 22, 2008 10:47 AM | Link to this

I live in my school’s neighborhood and I love runnning into most of the parents/students from my school. Of course, my students are still at the age when they see me somewhere else and their face lights up.

They most uncomfortable place is the pool. Our neighborhood pool is a child’s heaven and I love to go and spend some of my summer free time there. A bathing suit is definetely a different attire than what I wear at school. I ALWAYS have former and upcoming students talking to me. At first it was uncomfortable, but I got used to it, not sure if parents and students are though.

By Stacey

April 22, 2008 10:48 AM | Link to this

Tony - LOL…I work for a doctors group that has several locations in my area and we have the name of the practice on our shirts. I have been approached more than once by people asking me for medical advice. I had a patient (literally) curse me out in Kroger because I would not tell the pharmacist that it was okay to refill his pain medication a week early. That has actually led to me go home to change before going out to run errands. By the way, I work in the front office and have no medical training whatsoever but even if I did, I wouldn’t try to offer a diagnosis to a total stranger in the grocery store!

By catlady

April 22, 2008 10:59 AM | Link to this

Teacher of 34 years here. I am always glad to see my children’s parents out in public. I say hello and try to think of something complimentary to say: “Johnny’s work has been a little better in math and he seems to really enjoy working with others” which can actually mean “his average is up to 30 now, instead of the 15 it was two weeks ago, and he is constantly talking to others instead of doing his own work.” Then, I ask them to come in for a conference so we can better look at what is going on with him. It generally works. Johnny, meanwhile, is really sweating it because he KNOWS what I could say, and he has been capitalizing on convincing his parents that I am the enemy. I also try to observe the parent-child interaction in the store, because I frequently learn a lot (Is the child ransacking the store while the parent is blissfully unaware, for example? Is the kid mouthing off to the parent?)

I explain to parents that I am not able to tell them anything specific, because of my rapidly failing memory for such things, along with the sheer number of student grades I deal with. Also, I point out that their child’s work is PRIVATE—it would not be fair for someone to overhear our private discussion. They usually understand the failing memory part, and many are loathe to risk a discussion open to the ears of others, when I point that out.

I have not had any “nasty” confrontations at the store, but I greet parents first and ask the child to introduce us, instead of waiting for them to approach me. Being assertive, confident, and friendly is good.

As for drinking, etc: what kind of parent would be out drinking and then criticize me? Pot calling the kettle… Actually, I don’t drink, so that has never come up.

I was advised, in 1973, by the superintendent when I was hired, NOT to go to the store in shorts or curlers—that teachers were expected to be ABOVE reproach. How times have changed! He also advised me to find a “church home”. My parapro advised me to plant a garden so folks would not think I was worthless.

I used to get intrusive phone calls at home (Why isn’t Johnny’s little league team practicing this week?) but I have my number unlisted and I do not give it out. That made me mad. My limited home time is for me and my family.

By catlady

April 22, 2008 11:06 AM | Link to this

Stacy, LOL. I have a PhD. and you would not BELIEVE how many parents and subs think I should answer their health questions! I am a very experienced mother and teacher, so I can always say, “In my experience,…” but I tell them to talk to the nurse!

By Old School

April 22, 2008 11:51 AM | Link to this

I live and teach in a small town and am one of those folks EVERYONE knows. Almost all seem to feel comfortable stopping me to ask about their students’ schoolwork. I’m polite and usually start by asking them what their particular concerns are. Get most parents to talk and pretty soon they’ll have their own answers. I always suggest calling to set up an appointment to sit down and talk and I ALWAYS give them the number to our guidance department.

This is my 34th year of teaching high school and my methods have served me well…that and shopping mostly in neighboring towns!

By V for Vendetta

April 22, 2008 12:04 PM | Link to this

Jeff, LOL. Yeah, I think we know where our differences are! :-)

I just wanted to say how impressed I am with everyone’s answers to this question. I wish all the parents/teachers in the world were this level-headed and full of common sense. Alas, that just isn’t the case, but this gives me hope …

Laura, I think an interesting topic would be an expansion of what Jeff said earlier about drinking. As more and more teachers near retirement age and are replaced by teachers in their twenties, I think this will become more of an issue. I have been at numerous faculty meetings this year where they have told us that we “should not” have MySpace or Facebook accounts. Obviously they can’t TELL us not to have them, but you get the picture.

I see this as the start of a dangerous trend. For every one teacher we see on the news who doesn’t adhere to the line between student and teacher, there are thousands more who do. The many are being punished for the transgressions of the few, and any time that starts happening trouble is brewing.

By Jeff

April 22, 2008 12:17 PM | Link to this

V:

I’ve actually heard through the grapevine - through both reliable and unreliable sources - that my Myspace page, specifically where I used my PERSONAL blog to vent my PERSONAL frustrations, was one of the reasons I was not well liked by administration at Newton.

The way I personally view it is simple: When I’m on school property/at a school function, I’ll be ‘Mr. Jeff’ and abide fully by the PSC’s guidelines. The SECOND I leave campus, I shed the ‘Mr. Jeff’ persona and become ‘Jeff’. And what I do as ‘Jeff’ is NONEYADANGBIZNASS!

By HS Teacher Too

April 22, 2008 1:28 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

If only that were true. What people do on their personal blogs, when their personal comments either intersect with work or reflect poorly (in the employer’s eyes) on the employer, IS the employer’s business. You can see stories about this growing phenomenon all over the news lately. Just pick a source! The bottom line is that you CAN get fired for what you put on the Web; the Web is NOT a private forum; and potential employers are more and more checking for people on myspace and facebook and letting their findings affect their decisions.

I couldn’t impress that point upon my students enough when I was in the classroom! Teenagers don’t realize that the Internet is forever. There is a great line about that in the movie Notting Hill, when Julia Roberts is angry with Hugh Grant. He says the newspaper will be on the bottom of birdcages in a week and she reminds him that they will be preserved forever. I think at the time she was referring to microfilm, but it may well have been the Internet. The point is, if it’s on the Web, it’s public, no matter how “private” you intend it to be.

By V for Vendetta

April 22, 2008 2:35 PM | Link to this

Jeff,

Good point, but unfortunately, what HST said is also true. Now, many employers can hire/fire based on what is said on the internet which is viewed as public domain (even if you’re on your “private” page).

This is precisely why I think this could make an interesting topic. It’s a sort of extension of what we’ve been talking about today. Where do you draw the line between “personal, and none of your business” and “unacceptable role model?” It seems to be getting blurred more and more each day.

By catlady

April 22, 2008 2:40 PM | Link to this

The first year I taught (I had just turned 21) I was at the grocery with my husband, aged 22. One of my students, a kindergartener, was there with her family. The next day at school she exclaimed,”I saw you with your DADDY!”

By Teacher, Too

April 22, 2008 3:54 PM | Link to this

Teachers are also bound by the code of ethics, and specifically, the moral turpitude clause. So, as teachers, how we conduct ourselves even when we are “off-duty” can be cause for dismissal (one item I noted- failure to fill out a tax return!).

Luckily, I don’t have a problem with bumping into students during my off-time. However, when I was younger, I lived near the school where I taught. I was very young and enjoyed going out and having a good time. It was Halloween and I was at a street party downtown (after 11:00 P.M.), and several of the students were watching me dance and drink. But, I didn’t know they were students at my school for two reasons: a. they were wearing masks, and b. they were in 8th grade (I taught 6th grade, and it was my first year teaching).

I had no idea, but all of a sudden, I was “the cool” teacher. The kids went back to school and told all their friends. Of course, it eventually got back to me.

Yes, I was 22, and young, but boy,was it hard to live down.

I learned a valuable lesson that year— I watch my behavior in “local” places. The farther away I am from my school community, I can let myself be a little wilder.

By jim d

April 22, 2008 4:38 PM | Link to this

Too,

you touched on a point that I feel is very important.

It is what y’all have agreed to in your contracts for employment. No one twisted your arm, although you probably wouldn’t get hired if you failed to agree with these stipulations. The point is that parents, and or students can not change what you have agreed to. Only you can modify your agreements.

JM, now before you go off on a rant about not having unions—Who’s able to fix that? Surely not parents, and surely they have no cause to do so. There is strength in numbers but only when the numbers unite for a common goal. Teachers have been kept fragmented for a reason, and it doesn’t take a PHD to see that either.

By JustMe

April 22, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

jd - Who is able to ‘fix’ the fact that teachers don’t have unions in GA? The politicans. Currently GA State law prohibits state employees from joining or forming and labor union - and this includes teachers.

So then, the only way to correct this is by changing GA State law. Teachers cannot do this - politicans can.

By JustMe

April 22, 2008 4:54 PM | Link to this

jd - Who is able to ‘fix’ the fact that teachers don’t have unions in GA? The politicans. Currently GA State law prohibits state employees from joining or forming any labor union - and this includes teachers.

So then, the only way to correct this is by changing GA State law. Teachers cannot do this - politicans can.

By jim d

April 22, 2008 5:47 PM | Link to this

If I were to tell you JM, I’d be breaking the law. Suffice to say if miners nad truck drivers found a way—One would think that highly educated people could do the same.

By Lee

April 22, 2008 6:10 PM | Link to this

Ya’ll gonna have to make up your minds. Do you want to be thought of as professionals or not?

Like it or not, teachers are employed in a public position and are representatives of their school - even after hours and off campus.

In regards to the internet and email, I have a simple rule. I do not publish anything that I would be ashamed to be seen by my boss, grandmother, spouse or children. I also do not post to these blogs while at work. Some of you teachers would be wise to heed that advice.

One last thing, for the most part, the only thing I have in common with my child’s teacher is just that - they are my child’s teacher. So, if I see them out in public, the only mutual topic of interest that we will have to “chat” about is my child and her school work.

That’s just the way it is.

By HS Teacher Too

April 22, 2008 6:47 PM | Link to this

jim d, although I think you were referring to the other “Too,” I belive you give too much credit to teachers’ contracts. Behavior outside of work is very often included in employment contracts in fields outside of teaching as well. Pretty much any “profession” or any big company will have similar standards — as my husband has often said, they get you with that old “behavior unbecoming a Marine.”

So whether that’s drinking, smoking, posting to a blog, or any other less-than-desirable thing from the perspective of the employer, it’s still a fact of life, and it’s not just teachers who are held to such standards.

Quite frankly, I am not convinced that the PSC would revoke/suspsend a teacher’s certificate for a teacher’s drunken night, for example, unless it was egregious and had serious consequences. Am I mistaken? Does anyone know?

Side note: I have taught in the past with colleagues who had “appeared” on Girls Gone Wild, and let me tell you — that’s not something you want your students to find out, but oh, yes, they do! I’ve also taught at schools where students trolled the police records for mugshots of teachers. Every Monday, they looked for weekend photos. And oh, yes, they found some!

By Lee

April 22, 2008 6:52 PM | Link to this

The day teachers get a union in GA will be the day I pull my daughter out and put her in private school.

Oh wait, I already did that.

By Tony

April 22, 2008 7:37 PM | Link to this

It is hiring season and as I interview candidates, I check for myspace and facebook accounts. A local corporation of our fair city prepares a dossier of job candidates’ web pages!

Jeff - disparaging remarks about your employer will get you fired. It’s your choice whether to “tell it like it is” as you say. Or, you can put a little integrity into your actions. Even if you are self-employed there will be job-related ramifications for public behavior that is disconnected from the norms of your community. Don’t sell yourself short with poor judgement.

Teachers don’t need unions. However, they need a lot more backbone to stand up to the political forces. We could easily reclaim our profession and restore the respect that we used to hold. It will take more commitment to the profession from each and everyone of us.

By HS Teacher Too

April 22, 2008 10:24 PM | Link to this

Sorry for my many typos today. I usually pick out others’ typos, so I feel especially foolish.

By Jeff

April 23, 2008 5:03 AM | Link to this

Tony:

The way I see it, if I privately DESPISE my employer and yet am able to come in to work and do my job just as well as - if not better than - someone who LOVES the employer, it is a TESTAMENT to my professionalism, not a weakness therein. It shows that I can leave my personal issues at the door for the good of the company - even as I am privately looking to leave said company.

My personal life is just that - none of my employer’s business. I respect their right to require certain things while I am at work. But the SECOND I leave work, I am a private citizen again and my employer has NO RIGHT to any say in what I do.

For those that support the ‘conduct unbecoming’ philosophy: How far are you willing to take it? What if your company all of a sudden decides that it is no longer OK to be a parent? What if this becomes an industry-wide practice?

Big Brother, here we come.

Oh wait… we’re already there!

By WFC

April 23, 2008 6:57 AM | Link to this

If a school system wants to railroad a teacher they can, to a degree. School boards are full of pompous a*******es like Katie Reeves in Fulton County… wannabe politicians supported by wealthy husbands.

By jim d

April 23, 2008 7:19 AM | Link to this

Lee,

I never said it was perfect. I just become extremely weary of hearing all the belly aching about how poor working conditions are for teachers by a handfull that are not willing to do anything to improve their own situation. The point being that it is up to each of us to either improve our working conditions or move on. (know what I’m saying?)

You know, we have discussed this in length on these blogs before and my opinon hasn’t wavered. If someone remains in a position that they are not satisfied with they are either very insecure or just simply out and out stupid! Life is way too short to spend half of our waking hours doing something one doesn’t find rewarding to the extent that they look forward to getting up every day and going to work. And that my friend remains my humble opinon.

By DB

April 23, 2008 8:52 PM | Link to this

I don’t think that this happens to teachers any more than it happens to doctors, lawyers or accountants. Any party, some idiot is going to ask a doctor a “tiny little” medical question, hoping to score a bit of free advice. Lawyers are always being asked, “What should I do in this case?” and accountants are always being asked tax advice. So, figure that teachers are going to be quizzed about THEIR work, too!

If a teacher is enjoying a well-deserved night out with her family, or is obviously relishing a bit of down time at the book store, certainly be friendly and say “Hello, nice to see you!” But no, you aren’t allowed to grill her on school business — unless she happens to bring it up.

Doing it at the airport was just tacky.